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Reproductive Justice and Gender

Can You Be a Feminist and Anti-Abortion?

By Mandy Van Deven, AlterNet. Posted September 25, 2008.


A new book by Jennifer Baumgardner puts the abortion conversation back in the hands of the women who have experienced them.
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Abortion is, in many ways, a played-out topic in the women's movement, but activist and writer Jennifer Baumgardner (author of Look Both Ways, Manifesta and Grassroots) continues to breathe new life into this contentious issue. In 2004, she created the "I Had an Abortion" speak-out campaign, which both shocked and awed feminists and non-feminists alike through the dissemination of shirts with the controversial "coming out" statement emblazoned across the front. Today, Baumgardner continues to carve out a space for women's narratives and take an unabashed look at issues that have a tendency to be swept under the rug by the abortion rights movement in her new book, Abortion & Life (Akashic Books, 2008). An excerpt follows.

Mandy Van Deven: Why are abortion narratives important, personally and politically, and what makes this moment in history the right time for them to re-surface?

Jennifer Baumgardner: The history of women's gains in reproductive freedom is tied to women speaking out and telling the truth about their lives. The early days of the women's liberation movement saw women shedding shame and guilt by coming out about their illegal abortions; this lent momentum and urgency to the abortion law reform movement. In fact, it was women speaking out that took the movement from one of doctors, legislators and clergymen advising reform to a much more radical repeal movement. This is the right moment for abortion narratives because the movement needs to evolve again. It's no longer 1973. We know much more about fetal development, women who have unplanned pregnancies nowadays don't face as much societal scorn if they have a baby outside of marriage, and abortions have been legal for nearly four decades. Times have changed, and we need new politics to go with these new times. Thus, we should return to women's (and men's) lives to see where the movement needs to go.

MV: Some might say Abortion & Life gives the anti-abortion movement fuel to add to an already raging fire by criticizing the abortion rights movement. How do you respond to what you call "knee-jerk naivete"?

JB: I used to be resistant to hearing that a woman had a bad experience with her doctor or that she was extremely sad or had regrets about her abortion. I chalked it all up to right-wing propaganda. I see it differently now. These stories aren't necessarily the most common abortion experience (the best guess I have is that they account for less than 10 percent), but to suppress them or not want to hear them is a position of weakness. I don't think the abortion rights movement has to be as defensive as we've been. As a movement, we need to turn away from our commitment to arguing with the protesters and listen to the women again. To not do so gives fuel to the anti-abortion movement because then it is only those who oppose abortion who are willing to hear its complicated stories.

MV: In the book, you alternate the use of words like "fetus" and "child". With language being so controversial, why did you vary yours?

JB: I think there is legal truth around this issue, and then there is personal or emotional truth. In terms of the law, there is a difference between a potential child -- a fetus -- who is totally dependent upon its maternal host to survive and an already born baby who is dependent, but not exclusively on its biological mother. I understand the need for that language, but it is limiting and even alienating for many women who have had abortions. I have met women who think of the child -- their word -- every year on the day it was due to be born. I have read journals in abortion clinics in which women write prayers to their unborn babies, asking them to be guardian angels. I don't think "fetus" fits the bill in describing who they are talking about.

MV: I know you've got an entire chapter on this, but can you be a feminist and pro-life?

JB: Yes. Certainly you cannot bomb an abortion clinic and be a feminist, nor can you prohibit another woman from accessing an abortion and call yourself a feminist. But you can say that you believe that life begins at conception, that you are ambivalent or even deeply sad about abortion, or that you don't want to attend the March for Women's Lives. What you do have to do is find a way to be authentically pro-life that isn't anti-woman. You can work on birth control and sex education. You can become a foster parent. You can work with your place of worship or elected representatives to make sure women who are having abortions are supported. There is so much to do on the pro-life side that simply isn't being done.

MV: Mainstream -- white -- reproductive rights activists have recently begun to co-opt the language and politics of more radical women of color-led groups like SisterSong. There is a long history of white feminists claiming the theory and practice of women of color as their own, and many times getting it all wrong. How do you see this playing out today?

JB: The reproductive justice frame that is emerging was developed by women of color, and it provides a way for the movement to evolve to more clearly represent the diversity of women who get abortions, as you allude. Reproductive justice says that there is no objective experience of "choice" -- that we all make reproductive decisions within a community and have to deal with whatever oppressions act on that community. It also says that we should all have the right to choose an abortion, adoption or raising a child; to choose the conditions under which we give birth; and to parent the children we have.

I see white activists and thinkers, like Marlene Gerber Fried, who really believe in reproductive justice and work in relationship with organizations like SisterSong, but Loretta Ross comes right out and says that, though everyone loves the term "reproductive justice," few want to include the women of color who created it. That's obviously wrongheaded. Ross and others are working on a book that will lay out the theory and strategy more clearly, so I hope this problem will diminish a bit in the future.

MV: Can you talk about how your pro-choice position has changed over time?

JB: I'm clearer than ever that most restrictions on abortion are merely punitive and do not have a pro-life function at all. I'm radically pro-abortion in that I don't want any restrictions, just ways to support women who want to end a pregnancy to have earlier, better abortions whenever possible. I also think that fetuses are human life, and I'm not cold to the process of ending that life. I used to think of an abortion as nothing more than removing inanimate tissue. I've seen abortions now, which challenged me to face its reality. I can face it, and I think it is the moral responsibility of pro-abortion people to not protect themselves from the thornier or grislier aspects of abortion.

MV: You write again and again in Abortion & Life about the humility that you felt throughout the "I Had an Abortion" campaign, and it's been four years since you unveiled the T-shirts. How has this work affected you?

JB: I know! They were on the Drudge Report the night that Planned Parenthood's very courageous Gloria Feldt addressed the Democratic National Convention in 2004, and here we are heading into the convention again. I feel humility mainly because I haven't had an abortion, and I'm not an expert on that experience. I have listened to hundreds of abortion stories, I've visited dozens of clinics, I've interviewed countless activists and lawyers, and I've had an unplanned pregnancy, but women who have had abortions know more than I do. I see myself as a conduit to their expertise, and I'm still open to hearing what I need to learn.

******

Abortion & Life Excerpt

In 1993, Amy Richards (then the twenty-three-year-old co-founder of the Third Wave Foundation) was on a panel at a local New York City high school discussing feminism, when a sixteen-year-old girl timidly inquired whether one could be pro-life and a feminist. Amy answered promptly: "No. Next question." Amy recalls that Angel Williams, another activist on the panel, looked the girl in the eyes and said, "Being pro-life doesn't make you ineligible to be a feminist." Amy was infuriated by Angel's comment. "The only thing that made me feel better," recalls Amy, "was knowing that I was simply the better feminist, while Angel was willing to compromise feminism's core values."

Years later, after Amy and I had co-written two books addressing third-wave feminism, we became intrigued by that same recurring question. At a certain point in nearly every college classroom we visited, an earnest woman would raise her hand and recount the ways in which she felt she was a feminist ("I directed my campus production of The Vagina Monologues"; "I founded a group in high school to build schools for girls in Afghanistan"; etc.). Then she'd say, "But can you be a feminist and pro-life?"

It's a challenge to combine those identities, but Amy and I have both learned that these women are not asking if bombing an abortion clinic can fall within the realm of feminism. They aren't even wondering if it is okay to keep others from accessing an abortion and still call themselves feminists. They are usually asking if it's okay not to prioritize abortion, not to go to the March for Women's Lives, not to raise money for women's procedures. They are asking if they can believe that abortion is the taking of a life, even a sacred human life, and still be a feminist. If not, then these women (and men) see no alternative than to join the swelling ranks of "I'm not a feminist but ... " They can't suddenly abandon their belief about fetal life. So, are there organizations that represent the pro-life person who doesn't believe that women are second-class citizens?

There are at least two very visible groups that identify as both pro-woman and pro-life: Democrats for Life of America and Feminists for Life of America. Democrats for Life was founded in 1999, initially with four chapters but has grown to more than forty. While their executive director Kristen Day cites a December 2003 Zogby poll finding that forty-three percent of Democrats oppose abortion except in the case of rape or incest or to save the life of the mother, she also concedes that most Democrats do not want to recriminalize the procedure. While Democrats for Life's leaders in Congress include Jim Oberstar, who helped craft the extremely punitive Hyde Amendment, the stated mission of the group is to make good on the party plank holding that abortion should be rare. In 2005, Democrats for Life began pushing "95-10," a plan they hoped would reduce abortions by ninety-five percent in ten years.

The strategy, however, doesn't have a serious plan of action. Their platform doesn't advocate birth control and provides little to inspire a person who wants to be true to both their feminism and the value they place on fetal life. At first glance, Feminists for Life appears to provide a good haven for the pro-life feminist, but their practices echo that of Democrats for Life.

They focus on dismantling abortion without bringing about the pro-woman changes -- in particular, access to family planning -- that might make abortion less common. (They say that "pre-conception issues" are outside of their mission.) They claim that early feminists were in fact pro-life, but have taken the women's comments so out of context that many historians disagree with their conclusions. Certainly it is true that first-wave feminists such as Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony took up the cause of women like Hester Vaughn, a teenage immigrant in Philadelphia who was condemned to be hanged after she was forcibly impregnated by her employer, cast out on the street, and found with her baby dead -- a series of tragedies then judged an infanticide. Anthony and Stanton organized women to protest -- arguing that Vaughn was a "victim of a social system that forced women, especially poor women, to murder their illegitimate children or face social ostracism," as Ellen Carol DuBois writes in her 1999 book, Feminism & Suffrage. But their critique of Vaughn's treatment cannot be conflated with the message that women should never choose or desire to end an unplanned pregnancy.

Feminists for Life's position that "women deserve better" than the degradation they often face, though, has value. And it is true that if women were more empowered -- free of abusive partners, less poisoned by misogyny, had adequate access to health care and education about sex and their bodies -- abortion would occur far less frequently. (But the need for abortion will never be totally eradicated, according to the late health activist Barbara Seaman, unless society commits to giving vasectomies to all boys after freezing their sperm, and only allowing procreation through in vitro fertilization after demonstrating sufficient income and maturity to support a child for eighteen years. No one has jumped on this policy proposal for an abortion-free world.) The sentiments put forth by Democrats for Life and Feminists for Life work well as an ideal -- women deserve better than to be left holding the bag for a mutual sexual encounter -- but they don't appear to address the fact that people will always have sex.

It's a stultifying myth of feminism that prioritizing abortion rights is the most significant test of your commitment to women. You don't have to go to that march on Washington, you don't have to counsel your friends to have abortions, and you don't have to believe that abortion might be a good option for you. But that is just what you don't have to do. You do have to do something to animate your value system. What does it mean to be authentically pro-life and a feminist? Given how reproductive decisions occur within a social framework of so many other personal values, such as one's religion or family culture or self-image, it might seem difficult to actually lay out pro-life strategies that are genuine and don't conflict with women's freedom. Nonetheless, these parameters strike me as fitting the bill:

Work to make sure women who want to raise their kids have the support to do so: Traditionally, women have taken on the everyday hard work of cultivating the future. In other words, we raise the children. The "future," meanwhile, has it tough. Our often inadequate, frequently cruel foster care system can't handle the more than 300,000 kids thrust into its rigid arms each year, and the "end of welfare" ushered in during Bill Clinton's presidency means that living in poverty is just a part of growing up for thirteen million children in the United States. Yet more and more young women -- child-free and mothers, single and partnered -- are dealing with the collapse of the nuclear family. Feminists for Life is good at pointing out the ways that some pro-choice organizing, particularly on college campuses, can be downright hostile to early parenting. Sadly, though, they don't raise money to provide the resources they are so mad do not exist. Some of those resources might include: recruiting foster parents; providing family court advocates; establishing funds to offer support to low-income or otherwise stressed parents (from formula and diapers to lactation consultants); organizing free emergency babysitting services at trustworthy public locations (like universities) and publicizing them at churches, welfare agencies, and grocery stores.

Loretta Ross has long worked to bridge the divide between women who get abortions -- often lower-income and disproportionately black -- and abortion rights advocates, who are often middle-class and white. "If you're in the field, you know that black women are twelve percent of the female population but get twenty-five percent of the abortions in the country," says Ross, the fifty-five-year-old coauthor of Undivided Rights: Women of Color Organize for Reproductive Justice (South End Press, 2004). "Yet black women are saying this is not their issue. I have to ask why not." Ross is national coordinator of SisterSong: Women of Color Reproductive Health Collective, an organization that was instrumental in changing the name of the 2004 pro-abortion rights demonstration in Washington from "March for Freedom of Choice" to "March for Women's Lives."

"We couldn't endorse the march unless they recognized the complex issues that women face," explains Ross. "Every woman who is pregnant wonders if she has a bedroom for that child; can she afford to take off the time to raise that child? Why flatten the decisions around abortion to just abortion? When women don't have jobs or health care, where is the choice? There is nothing worse than a woman aborting a baby she wanted because she couldn't support it." Ross notes that black women were the first to resist the pro-choice/pro-life dichotomy. "A very large percentage of (black) women are personally opposed to abortion but are politically pro-choice," adds Ross, who is one of the architects of the reproductive justice framework. "Women of color agree with not giving unborn children more rights than grown women, but even when they're terminating a pregnancy, they call it a baby. This has been going on as long as we have had the debate."

Support birth control and sex education (along with abstinence): Feminists for Life along with other not-so-feminist-friendly pro-life organizations do not support contraception or sex education. A position paper released by the largest right-to-life educational organization -- the American Life League -- reads, The practice of contraception is intrinsically evil and lays the groundwork for other evils such as the act of abortion, and calls for an absolute trust in God and His will with regard to the gift of children. Many pro-life activists consider contraception as the first step in a "slippery slope" that leads to abortion, because, that thinking goes, if you can have sex without fear of pregnancy, you will be more likely to have sex outside of the bounds of marriage. It's undeniable that abstinence from sexual intercourse is the best way to avoid getting pregnant. It's also undeniable that much sexual activity occurs in less than ideal, coherent, and consensual circumstances and that most people have sex more often than the few times it took to conceive their children. However, the best way to truly protect women and men and to improve our bodily health and our potential to reproduce is with honest information about sex, honest talk about personal values, and by modeling the behavior we believe to be most healthy. As the statistics about abstinence-only education attest, people are going to have sex whether or not it's sanctioned.

Work toward early abortion: Later abortions are harder on everyone. They are more expensive ($1,000 to $2,500 or more for a twenty-week procedure, compared to $400 or less for an eight-week procedure) and require greater medical expertise (not to mention up to three days of doctor's visits to complete) and travel expense, as there are very few doctors who do later procedures. They're harder on women (financially and physically) and possibly harder on the fetus (there is contradictory evidence in recent research on fetal pain). A strong abortion rights movement has already meant that women are getting procedures earlier, when the surgery is easier and safer. In 1973, only thirty-eight percent of abortions were performed within the first two months of pregnancy. Today the figure is more than fifty-five percent. Coincidentally, earlier abortions are less controversial among the pro-choice advocates who favor some restrictions (a surprisingly high number of people). It is part of the future of abortion to promote earlier procedures, when the cost is reduced in every way -- on the medical system, on the woman, on the fetus, and even in the field of public opinion. "You can't have choice without knowledge," says Merle Hoffman. "And sometimes that knowledge is hard to bear." But given the myriad of factors that might impact one's decision, it is crucial to be frank and fearless about what we know and don't know about the fetus and let women decide for themselves.

Support EC and medical abortion: To encourage earlier abortions, we need to make mifepristone and emergency contraception more readily available, as well as rethink our restrictions on abortion generally. Researchers James Trussell and Felicia Stewart concluded that if emergency contraception (pills that can be taken within ninety-six hours of unprotected sex) were effectively promoted and distributed, they could address an estimated two million unintended pregnancies per year. If their assessment is correct, this initiative would save billions of dollars each year. A study commissioned by New York State comptroller in 2003 (and revised for 2005), titled "Emergency Contraception: Fewer Unintended Pregnancies and Lower Health Care Costs," estimates "that widely available and easily accessible emergency contraception could result in $233.1 million in savings" for New York State alone, "reducing the 104,776 unintended pregnancies associated with Medicaid-eligible women" by half.

Work against restrictions: For years I have supported the New York Abortion Access Fund, which funded many later-term procedures since women travel to New York City for abortions up to twenty-four weeks. (New York is one of the few places with doctors trained to perform those procedures and a public that supports those doctors -- or at least isn't openly hostile.) When doing intake, we would learn why the individual patient was seeking a later procedure, and almost without exception it had to do with restrictions on abortion. These laws became infuriating to me because they didn't make women change their minds about needing a procedure, they merely punished them, making them jump through demeaning hoops at a time when they needed support. Because of the Hyde Amendment, women on public assistance in some states couldn't get a Medicaid-covered procedure; raising money meant waiting to get the abortion. Ditto, parental consent rules. As girls drum up the courage to tell their parents, the pregnancy develops further. According to Susan Cohen, the director of government affairs at the Guttmacher Institute, evidence from around the world shows that placing restrictions on abortion makes it less safe rather than more rare. "In the United States, abortion opponents take credit for the mounting state and federal restrictions on abortion," says Cohen, "rather than working to reduce unintended pregnancy to begin with."

Actively condemn violence: Ani DiFranco's wrenching song "Hello Birmingham" is a letter to that city from her hometown of Buffalo, New York. In 1998, Eric Rudolph bombed New Woman All Women Health Care in Birmingham, Alabama, killing a young off-duty police officer named Robert Sanderson and horrifically maiming clinic nurse Emily Lyons. That same year, a Buffalo doctor named Barnett Slepian who provided abortions was murdered in his home, in front of his children. The bravery that is sometimes required for clinic workers just to show up for their jobs is heartbreaking. And the violence is utterly in conflict with any authentic reverence for life. Feminists for Life offered a reward for any information that could lead to the arrest and conviction of the Birmingham bomber, demonstrating that their pro-life worldview can work in concert with feminist goals.

Truly understand adoption, and work to make sure the birth mother has a voice: When Norma McCorvey's autobiography, I Am Roe, was published in 1994, it was dedicated to "All of the Jane Does who died for Choice." Yet by the very next year, she had become one of the best-known anti-abortion activists in history, joining Operation Rescue. She even petitioned the Supreme Court (unsuccessfully) to have Roe overturned. And yet, Norma McCorvey, who never actually had an abortion, nonetheless represents a very silenced, often-mistreated demographic: birth mothers. Just before Christmas of 2006, I attended an event at which adoption scholar Ann Fessler played the audio pastiche of her interviews with birth mothers who surrendered their children in the years before Roe. I perched on the arm of a couch in a Park Avenue apartment and sobbed. I cried for the many women who were conned into relinquishing their children and fed a nonstop barrage of insults, from "You'd be a terrible mother" to "You've brought shame on the family" to "Just pretend this never happened." I cried remembering how intense it was to be pregnant and to give birth -- how hormones and pain and extreme physical duress combined into what felt like a near-death experience.

I recalled how I really understood -- in my loosened pelvis, my stretched-out ribs, and the kicks to my cervix from tiny limbs -- the sensitive factory that is our bodies, arduously creating another human. The thought of going through that and being told it didn't matter -- You don't know this baby anyway -- struck me as unbearably cruel. My tears also reflected the poignancy of growing up in a different era, one in which my unplanned pregnancy and subsequent out-of-wedlock parenting can be celebrated and supported, with two sets of parents thrilled to become grandparents. I read Fessler's wonderful book, The Girls Who Went Away, and was overwhelmed by the emotional pain the women endured. It's not a fair comparison, perhaps, but I found the stories of women who surrendered their babies just as traumatic and heartbreaking as the stories I've heard of women who had abortions pre-Roe.

I spoke with Ann Fessler about adoption. Even if the terrain has shifted radically from the social pressures on girls raised in the 1950s, it's clear that the voice of the birth mother is still very suppressed. "Many (birth mothers) are promised one thing and enter into the misunderstanding that they are committing to a situation with certain protections that, in fact, aren't guaranteed," Fessler says.

In many places, for instance, if the mother leaves the state in which the adoption occurred, the contract is broken and she no longer has the right to see her child. "Over the years, all of the laws have gone the way of supporting adoption agencies' needs," she explains. "In some states, women are asked to sign within twenty-four hours of birth, and it is irrevocable." There is less and less of a space for the birth mother to process the experience of having had a baby at all.

"I'm an adoptee, and I'm not dispassionate to the emotional stress that the adoptive parent is feeling," Fessler reveals. "The bottom line, though, is that it is not their child yet, and even though this is emotional, the birth mother needs a reasonable amount of time to come to grips with this decision."

Ethical adoption is one piece of a pie that includes foster care, a social safety net that supports struggling families, and a commitment to helping parents raise healthy children. Pro-choice organizations such as Backline in Portland, Oregon are opening up space to discuss adoption in all of its facets. No doubt the room created by these activists and parents will shepherd in new understanding of how to support the adoption option that is so glibly proffered by some politicians.

So, can you be a feminist and pro-life? The answer is a resounding "yes." In fact, finding more and better ways to do just that would be, in a word, revolutionary.

To purchase the book, visit Powells.com.

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One can be a feminist and against abortions, but will be unpopular amongst most feminists.
Posted by: aouie01 on Sep 25, 2008 12:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People often try to redefine what it means to be something to pressure them to be a certain way. e.g. "Real men don't bla bla bla." Does a man who engages in bla bla bla become a fake man?

If a person is convinced that killing human fetuses is equivalent to killing properly developed, delivered and functioning human fetuses (i.e. humans), then one could be against abortions and still believe in equal rights for various sexes (or even be a biased feminist who is only concerned with more rights for women and ignore issues where non-women are treated unfairly). Due to the widespread association of feminism with the struggles to afford people a safe way to choose to not have unwanted babies, such a person will not be popular amongst feminists.

Sincerely,
Aouie

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» evidence on SBA Posted by: marykderr
Pro-Choice does not equal Pro-Abortion
Posted by: catherinep on Sep 25, 2008 2:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it very frustrating that the labels "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion" have become synonymous. I think it would be great if no one had to have an abortion. I think it would be great if contraceptives were widely and freely available, and if they never failed. It would be great if all pregnancies were planned, and all pregnant women were prepared to raise a child. Obviously, none of the above are true, and I strongly support those who chose to abort, and even think it should be covered by insurance/Medicaid. I just wish the term "pro-abortion" weren't so casually used, and I don't think that makes me any less of a feminist.

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» Amen Posted by: chaoslegs
» RE: It's about CONTROL! Posted by: Sushi
deja vu
Posted by: sschoice on Sep 25, 2008 3:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jennifer said:

“This is the right moment for abortion narratives because the movement needs to evolve again. It's no longer 1973.”

Ok, but activists supporting reform of abortion legislation had narratives in many way more similar to what Jennifer describes herself evolving to in the next paragraph:

“I used to be resistant to hearing that a woman had a bad experience with her doctor or that she was extremely sad or had regrets about her abortion.”

After the Roe v Wade ruling, so many abortion clinics opened to so much pent-up demand that there was a strong feminist critique of many of them which led to feminist women’s health clinics opening as an alternative to them. Pro-choice concern for how women were treated in many of the for-profit abortion clinics that opened after Roe predated anti-choice efforts, which hardly existed until the later years of the Carter administration. Pro-choice activists then also weren’t at all “resistant” to “hearing that a woman had a bad experience with her doctor”, as criticism of allopathic medicine and the AMA in particular was common among pro-choice activists. Even the larger nonprofit women’s clinic chains weren’t immune from criticism, as a Wonder Woman cartoon showed in the alternative press of the time…as you’ll see among the doctor, psychiatrist, and priest at the bottom of the cartoon, a book labeled “planned parenthood”.

Pro-choice activists of the early 70s would also have been sympathetic to women who had “regrets about her abortion” especially if she had felt that if she had more support from her partner and society she’d have chosen to carry the pregnancy to term and raise the child as her own – but there was also more support then for funding public health services in general (with most health insurance plans then covering little more than “major medical” conditions, young families expected more from the government, and were more willing to support public health services through their taxes). Public health services and nonprofit clinics had more support to provide services lower-income women and young women need to choose to willingly carry a pregnancy to term and keep and raise the child. Male partners in some ways may have even been more supportive than they are today, as marriage was more common among older adolescents and very young adults than it is now, and men were more fearful then of paternity suits that would force them to pay child support.

Jennifer’s statements above are from her own perspective, and she and others go on to make many valid and useful points in her book. While she wasn’t speaking of how women in say 1973 experienced abortion, if pro-choice activists looked more closely at how women experienced abortion in 1973 and earlier – how they coped and even thrived in that time -- they’d be better able to help women and men cope with restrictions on access to abortion, which may likely increase even if laws don’t change to restrict it further. Even if no more restrictive legislation is passed, a goal of most groups on both sides today is to reduce abortion rates. As fewer abortions are performed, fewer doctors and clinics will be needed to provide them. Women seeking abortion will find it harder to get, and harder to find peers who are understanding and supportive, as the experience of helping peers deal with abortion – as Jennifer has described she did at 15 -- will become less common. As numerous studies including a Guttmacher report released earlier this week shows that abortion rates in the US are at historic lows – lower than any time since right after the Roe decision -- it may help people who care about women who have abortions to learn how women and men dealt with it – and how many did well with what they found -- in the early 70s and before.

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» RE: links in "deja vu" post Posted by: sschoice
I'm not pro nor anti
Posted by: Nightowl on Sep 25, 2008 4:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just don't think I have a right to tell another woman what she can or can't do with her own body. That's what angers me, that anyone thinks their religion gives them the right to control another person.

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» RE: no, you've missed the point Posted by: WyrdSister
Stop using the word "abortion" !
Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 25, 2008 4:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Main Street is already getting aborted by the pols and all this author can do is complain about a woman who doesn't support "abortion" as somehow being anti-feminist. Feminism existed long before "abortion" came up !

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NO SUCH THING AS 'PRO ABORTIONIST'- but 'Breeders' exist
Posted by: Purple Girl on Sep 25, 2008 4:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
so the answer to your question is a resounding YES!
First the term 'Choice' indicts at Least two OPTIONS!
Second 'Planned parenthood' Indicate "Parenting" is one of their focus'- they actually provide resources and networks to HELP Women who CHOOSE to keep their child. I've been to one of those 'Free pregnancy' Clinic- all they offered Me was a video depicting the worst case scenario's should I be considering aborting- fuck of a lot of help they are-Assholes, Purely 'ProBirth' then "you're fucked" Doctrine kicks in.
Third- ask any 'ProChoicer' what our first goal is...I'll Wait...Let me Guess- TO PREVENT UNWANTED PREGNANCIES, thus if logic prevails , a reduction in the need for Abortions!
Pro Choicers are not marketing Abortion like some glorious pedicure at a Day Spa!
Fourth the majority of 'pro Lifers'- Don't allow Preventive birth control methods- education or access, They have no interest in Life beyond the Gestation period (SCHIP/ Medicare) and and think the Term "life" ONLY revolves around Humans- not the Environment which supports ALL of Life.
So let US review - there is no such thing as a 'Pro abortionist' but there is such thing as 'Pro Birthers'
so when of these Deluded people cross your path- interrogate them on the extent and scope of 'Life ' they are protecting, ask them about those who suffer from debilitating, life threatening disease- ask them which is more 'Valueable' A life already in Progress, or a clump of cells who has yet to form any relationships, responsilbities, or impact on that which they have touched.
If you are 'Pro Life' that means you realize that man with Parkinsons/Cancer has a wife and children who love and depend on him- He has not only a 'Life' but a Real Existence.You would also be up on the FACT that there have been great gains on Stem cells NOT from Embryos, and you would be throwing all your support behind that effort to SAVE MORE LIVES!
So it is not the "prochoice' who need to Clarify their Stance- it's quite clear from Our Title. However, "Pro Life" needs to explain EXACTLY what parts and Forms of LIFE they Support...Most are merely Pro Birthers- helping the Corps build a legion of Cheap Labor for their Futures Commodity Market.
Reason they don't support Stem cell- Humans are Disposable once they have live past their usefulness/expiration date.
Want to know what is behind the facade of "pro life' Follow the Money Baby! Mindless followers of the fundmentals of this psuedo"Pro- life' Movement are actually stock for the Corp-States BREEDING PROGRAM!

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» really? Posted by: marykderr
I suppose you can be a feminist and be anything else, also
Posted by: Beck on Sep 25, 2008 5:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But you can't attempt to impose it upon anyone else and remain a feminist. I do not try to interfere in large life decisions for anyone else, especially conservatives, especially people I've never met. I don't attempt to have any of my spiritual beliefs made into laws that people who don't even hold the same belief must follow. And I certainly wouldn't attend a church that attempted to make its belief system into US law.

Read "The Only Moral Abortion is MY Abortion", anecdotes of antichoice women who have abortions. This is not a link; you must cut and paste.

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

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» Thank you Beck ! Posted by: maxpayne
It's very very simple - it's about rights
Posted by: Cruella on Sep 25, 2008 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Firstly it's not about being pro- or anti- abortion, it's about being pro- or anti- choice. No-one is trying to force abortions on women who don't want them.

And that's rather the point. Being anti-abortion as a feminist would mean (in a sane world) that you choose not to have one yourself and support women who are pregnant to ensure that they are able to continue their pregnancies if they want to. To be anti-choice means that you believe a woman's life is less important than that of a tiny multi-cell blastocyst. It's not about when life starts, because by any definition life has already started for the woman involved.

So if you wish to encourage women to consider other alternatives to abortion and offer support to them in doing so, great. But if you wish to take away the choice so that they are forced to continue with a pregnancy they do not want, which may be the result of rape, incestuous abuse, etc and may be threatening their physical and mental health then you're not a feminist by my definition anyway. Because you don't value women highly enough to believe they are capable of making their own decisions.

In the UK abortion rights are under fire at the moment, we need co-ordinated efforts to sort it out, not this nonsense about anti-choice feminism.

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The Roots of Anti-Choice
Posted by: Adastra on Sep 25, 2008 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a 1,000 ton elephant in the room, but we're all trying to pretend it's not there. The anti-choice, anti-woman faction claims to base their opposition to abortion on the idea that God doesn't approve of abortion, at all, under any circumstances. They claim they get this image of an unfeeling, misogynist God from the Bible. I've heard it a thousand times, "Abortion is murder; the Bible says so." You've probably heard it yourself.

But it's a lie. The word "abortion" never occurs anywhere in the Bible at all. There is no reference to the procedure in the Bible whatever. Which is odd, since the practice was certainly familiar to the peoples of the Middle East in that period of history. Most nations of the civilized world had laws outlawing abortion. Israel and Judea were among the few who didn't have such laws. The closest they come is a law in the 21st Chap. of Exodus declaring that a man who injures a pregnant woman and causes a miscarriage must be punished--by a fine. But if he causes injury directly to the woman herself, he must pay eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, wounding for wounding and life for life.

So it seems God is more concerned with the welfare of a living human woman than in any temporary contents of her womb. The attempt by radical anti-feminists to spin this into a divine mandate forbidding any abortion at all is based on an outright lie. Either they hope that feminists will not bother to read the Bible and check on what they are being told or they have convinced themselves that their own sentimentalism over "cuddly, wuddly wittle babies" trumps God's opinion. They should be called on their lies/ignorance, either they are deliberately lying or they are ignorant of the book they claim to follow.

Anyone may have very good reason to decide against an abortion when faced with an unwanted pregnancy, but basing arguments on lies and ignorance to control someone else's choices is foul play.

With love under will,

Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville

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no help from church organizations?
Posted by: Jacki429 on Sep 25, 2008 6:40 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am impressed with Jennifer's balanced presentation of this explosive topic! One comment that I would like to address is her statement that not much is being done by pro-lifers in regards to supporting women who have had abortions. In my many church visits, I have found many women's Bible studies and para-church organizations that have excellent shoulders for bearing this. Mostly, it's underground and handled personally due to the stigma attached in such circles. As one who received such care, I found that many, many women who had abortions were suffering terribly from guilt and regret, as was I, and received healing and comfort from others who had been there. Shockingly, most of the women I met in these places had been through abortions, and that is what drove them to seek church. Jennifer's guestimate that about 10% of those who have had abortions suffer emotionally/mentally for it is, in my opinion very low.

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the original feminist movement was pro-life (part 1)
Posted by: vasumurti on Sep 25, 2008 6:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to contemporary pro-life feminist Mary Krane Derr, “The debate raging over abortion today is not the first one in American history; there was one during the Victorian era.”

Derr writes that despite the large monetary loss involved, The Revolution, the suffragist paper put out by Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton refused to run ads for patent medicines because these were frequently thinly disguised abortifacients.

A similar policy was practiced by Woodhull’s and Claflin’s Weekly, the paper published by free love advocates Victoria Woodhull and Tennessee Claflin. The Weekly constantly attacked Madame Restell, a well known New York City abortionist. Victoria Woodhull, the first woman to attempt to run for President, was a fierce opponent of abortion. The Weekly (December 24, 1870) proclaimed, “The rights of children as individuals begin while yet they remain the foetus.”

According to Woodhull: “Men must no longer insult all womanhood by saying that freedom means the degradation of woman. Every woman knows that if she were free, she would never bear an unwished-for child, nor think of murdering one before its birth.” (Evening Standard, November 17, 1875)

“Victorian feminists,” Derr observes, “were highly critical of Victorian sexual ethics. They affirmed the value of sex for pleasure and communication as well as procreation, for men and women alike...they celebrated motherhood itself as a uniquely female power and strength which deserved genuine reverence.”

According to Derr, “From early in the 19th century, Americans—even lay people—were exposed to enough information about embryology to enable them to make a critical and ethically significant distinction between contraception and abortion: the former practice did not terminate a human life but the latter one did.”

In The Radical Remedy in Social Science (1886), feminist and civil libertarian Edward Bond Foote crusaded for public and legal acceptance of contraception, insisting it would not only promote the well-being of women, but that it would also reduce the destruction of unborn children, which he termed “a wastefulness of human life.”

Susan B. Anthony called abortion “child-murder” and insisted, “We want prevention, not merely punishment. We must reach the root of the evil...It is practiced by those whose inmost souls revolt from the dreadful deed.” Anthony recognized that one of the root causes of abortion was the male exploitation of women: “All the articles on this subject that I have read have been from men. They denounce women as alone guilty, and never include man in any plans for the remedy.” (The Revolution, July 8, 1869)

Like Susan B. Anthony, Matilda Gage also held men accountable: “(This) subject lies deeper down in woman’s wrongs than any other...I hesitate not to assert that most of (the responsibility for) this crime lies at the door of the male sex.” (The Revolution, April 9, 1868)

Elizabeth Cady Stanton classified abortion along with the killing of newborns as “infanticide.” (The Revolution, February 5, 1868) According to Stanton: “When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit.” (Letter to Julia Ward Howe, October 16, 1873) Stanton not only opposed abortion, but recognized the social factors causing women to seek it: “There must be a remedy even for such a crying evil as this,” she wrote. “But where shall it be found, at least where begin, if not in the complete enfranchisement and elevation of women?” (The Revolution, March 12, 1868)

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An easy question!
Posted by: IntnsRed on Sep 25, 2008 6:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The answer is "no".

You cannot be an advocate for some women's rights and seek to deny women other rights.

Abortion is a personal choice and a right. You may not like other women having abortions, but a "feminist" cannot deny them their right without being a hypocrite.

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» RE: An easy question! Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: An easy question! Posted by: Xynyx
the original feminist movement was pro-life (part 2)
Posted by: vasumurti on Sep 25, 2008 6:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mattie Brinkerhoff also recognized that social factors such as poverty and discrimination cause women to seek abortions:

“When a man steals to satisfy hunger, we may safely conclude that there is something wrong in society—so when a woman destroys the life of her unborn child, it is an evidence that either by education or circumstances she has been greatly wronged...How shall we prevent this destruction of life and health? By the true education and independence of woman.” (The Revolution, September 2, 1869)

“Child murderers,” wrote Sarah Norton, “practice their profession without let or hindrance, and open infant butcheries unquestioned...Is there no remedy for all this ante-natal child murder?...Perhaps there will come a time when...an unmarried mother will not be despised because of her motherhood... and when the right of the unborn to be born will not be denied or interfered with.” (Woodhull and Claflin’s Weekly, November 19, 1870)

Even into the 20th century, feminists continued to oppose abortion as an injustice towards women rather than seeing it as a means to their emancipation. “The custom of procuring abortions has reached such appalling proportions in America as to be beyond belief...” wrote anarchist Emma Goldman in Mother Earth in 1911. “So great is the misery of the working classes that seventeen abortions are committed in every one hundred pregnancies.”

Alice Paul, the author of the original Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) in 1923, opposed the later trend of linking it with abortion rights. She insisted that “abortion is the ultimate exploitation of women.”

Whether for public relations purposes or her actual heartfelt feelings, Margaret Sanger, founder of the American Birth Control League (now known as Planned Parenthood), expressed opposition to abortion. She lamented the resort of poor people to “the most barbaric method” of family planning, “the killing of babies—infanticide—abortion.” (My Fight for Birth Control, 1931) Sanger told clients in her first birth control clinic that “abortion was the wrong way—no matter how early it was performed it was taking a life.” (An Autobiography, 1938)

Although Simone de Beauvoir supported the legalization of abortion, she described it as an injustice to women: “Men tend to take abortion lightly; they...fail to realize the values involved. The woman who has recourse to abortion is disowning feminine values, her values...Women learn to believe no longer in what men say...the one thing they are sure of is this rifled and bleeding womb, these shreds of crimson life, this child that is not there.” (The Second Sex, 1952)

A 1972 Presidential commission on population growth recommended legalizing abortion, with only a few voices dissenting. One of those voices expressing opposition to legalized abortion was Graciela Olivarez, a Chicana active in civil rights and anti-poverty work. “The poor cry out for justice and equality,” she lamented, “and we respond with legalized abortion. I believe that in a society that permits the life of even one individual (born or unborn) to be dependent on whether that life is ‘wanted’ or not, all its citizens stand in danger...We do not have equal opportunities. Abortion is a cruel way out.”

In 1972, the National Organization for Women (NOW) expelled all its pro-life members in order to stifle dissent on the abortion issue. These pro-life feminists went on to form their own organization. Feminists For Life has chapters in the United States, Canada and New Zealand.

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observations from pro-life feminists
Posted by: vasumurti on Sep 25, 2008 7:06 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pro-Life Feminism: Different Voices contains observations by numerous pro-life feminists on the subject of abortion. According to these pro-life feminists, abortion is not the answer to the problem of unwanted pregnancy, it is merely a band-aid which prevents real reforms from taking place regarding society’s treatment of women.

Susan Maronek, for example, writes:

“Abortion, in the final analysis, works to the advantage of the exploitative male, not for the female. It provides an end to any and all financial, legal or social obligation which comes with childbirth by eliminating the possibility of birth. Abortion provides the ultimate rationale when pressing for sexual favors. It makes the female a perpetual and re-usable sex object. When an unwanted pregnancy occurs, the female is potentially left without any social support...

“The male can remove himself from the situation, physically or mentally because abortion is ‘her’ right. The female is left with the sole and final legal responsibility for killing their offspring. It is her body and mind which bear the scars of this destructive operation and experience... Abortion is a male sexual fantasy come true.”

Pregnancy and childbirth are natural. The ability to bear children is the one thing which truly distinguishes women from men. Demanding the right to abort in order to achieve equality implies women must become males in order to compete and survive in a man’s world. Rosemary Bottcher points out that abortion reduces women to the status of sex machines which can be “repaired,” if necessary. She refers to it as the “castration of women.”

“What we need now,” writes Jo McGowan, “is a race of woman who will stand up and say NO! The violence ends here. The misogyny ends here. The destruction of our children ends here. No longer will our bodies be used to write messages of fear and hatred. We hold within our bodies the power of creation, the power to nourish and sustain life. We shall not pervert these to serve death.”

“Abortion is the destruction of human life and energy that does nothing to eradicate the very real underlying problems of women,” writes Cecilia Voss Koch. “The pregnant welfare mother begs for decent housing, a decent job and childcare or respect for her child-nurturing work. Instead, she gets direction to the local abortion clinic and is told to take care of ‘her problem.’ How convenient. Much less time and trouble than teaching her about authentic reproductive freedom and reproductive responsibility. Much cheaper than attending to her real problems: her poverty, her lack of skills, her illiteracy, her loneliness, her bitterness about her entrapment, her self-contempt, her vulnerability. After the abortion, these problems will all be there...

“By encouraging society to consider a woman’s child as a disposable piece of property, aborting reinforces the image of woman herself as disposable property and reusable sex object—a renewable resource. It is no coincidence that the biggest single financial contributor to the cause of ‘abortion rights’ is the Playboy Foundation. When abortion is available to all women, all male responsibility for fertility control has been removed. A man need only offer a woman money for the abortion and that’s it: no responsibility, no relationship, no commitment. And there we are—recycled and used again!”

Feminist writer Mary Ann Schaefer refers to pro-abortion feminism as “terrorist feminism” because you have to be “willing to kill for the cause you believe in...”

"If women must submit to abortion to preserve their lifestyle or career, their economic or social status,” writes Daphne de Jong, “they are pandering to a system devised and run by men for male convenience.”

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anti-choice=anti-woman=anti-feminist, and will someone tell Manifesta girls their moment has passed?
Posted by: ladyoracle on Sep 25, 2008 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't trust Baumgardner to represent my feminism, and since I'm 28 yrs old, I guess by default I am in the third wave. Unlike herself, I had an abortion which makes me more of an authority than she is.

Here's what she said but didn't have the guts to say plainly:

You can be a feminist and think abortion is wrong, but you can't be a feminist and amongst other things stand in the way of women who choose to have abortions.

She's trying to forge some territory wherein well-meaning feminists with pro-life sentiments help where they are needed and get out of the way where they are hurtful to other women. But it doesn't work that way very often. How many feminists have done the self-exploration that could lead them to that middle ground? I bet very few.

What I bet instead is that anyone who thinks being a feminist is cool, or that it can mean anything and anyone--like Palin for instance--will take the byline and run with it, and I hope Baumgardner will have to eat her words one day. I just hope they aren't served on a spoon akin to Hyde.

And here's my abortion narrative: I had it done at 6 weeks, it was just some foreign tissue, I was sad about the circumstances but not the procedure, nor have I ever regretted it, and it has not made me see infants or children differently. I didn't kill anyone, and that is my experience. Does that matter to miss heartstrings? I think the regretful narratives are more about circumstances when you come right down to it. They regret being in a bad place financially, abusive relationship, or whatever, and those things caused them to abort a wanted pregnancy. I am a believer in choice, and if a woman doesn't want to abort then I think feminists should do everything we can to help a pregnant woman have the circumstances to carry it to term. But then it's still a choice issue and not a life issue.

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yes
Posted by: cyr3n on Sep 25, 2008 9:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
yes you can. Dont have abortions yourself and allow other women the choice.

next question.

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» RE: yes Posted by: thealltheone
» Logical conclusion Posted by: truthlover
» RE: Logical conclusion Posted by: Xynyx
» every 18 months... Posted by: truthlover
» RE: Logical conclusion Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: yes Posted by: VMRH
Language of choice
Posted by: mtc on Sep 25, 2008 10:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The words we use when talking about abortion are clumsy, most of them rooted in politics or euphemism. Is somebody antiabortion or antichoice? Are they proabortion or prochoice? And if somebody, like in this article, is said to be prochoice but antiabortion and essentially prolife, the words get in the way of Jennifer Baumgardner's very thoughtful points.

One problem is words that have been claimed by the right wing. Like "prolife." Unfair that they get to lay claim to all of life, which accuses their opposition of being "anti-life." Proabortion is another weighted term -- I've never met anybody who actually advocated abortion, just the right to have one, but the word is used as a description of prochoice supporters.

Politically, I want to know if a candiate is prochoice or antichoice. Whatever their personal beliefs or lifestyle, I just want to know if they support a women's right to choose. That's all, the rest is between them and their body.

On the personal level, things are more complicated. One friend grieves every year on the anniversary of her abortion, but completely supports women's right to choose. Those words like antiabortion, prochoice, proabortion, etc. are rigid and fall short of the complicated reality. In my talks with my women friends and family, I think this is the consenses: we are all deeply ambivalent about abortion, but will support each other through any choice.

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» RE: Language of choice Posted by: DaBear
Coercion, social constructs, mob rules-group think
Posted by: DaBear on Sep 25, 2008 11:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These [negative abortion narratives] stories aren't necessarily the most common abortion experience (the best guess I have is that they account for less than 10 percent), but to suppress them or not want to hear them is a position of weakness...

And that's the real point... the negative experiences. The problem is that those minority narratives are mis-perceived as if they are the majority abortion experience narrative.

I've seen this over and over, even with men: ask them what the dominant view is, they'll parrot the Xtian fundie fantasy "womby" view. Ask them some honest questions about it though, suddenly that mainstream view ain't mainstream at all.

This is something the Xtian fundie ilk are highly skilled at doing: conflating their minority experience as the majority and thus dominating the frame and the discourse with their experience and worldview over and above anyone else's.

A woman I know very well had an abortion. Her narrative was very different. When she had her abortion she felt sad, but recognized that was part of the hormonal changes in her body. What she noticed she felt consistently throughout her process and experience was that she was mostly angry at the society that would keep her family poor, her special needs kids ostracized and unfairly disadvantaged. She felt angered that a society so broken would make her feel she had no choice other than abortion. But then that sensation seemed odd to her in light of her genuine lack of regret and having had an abortion. In fact she felt relieved and grateful she didn't have to sneak around or do it illegally.

She had an epiphany. She said she realized that it was her preference to be a parent, not that it was a wiring level need, and having the abortion felt like she was thwarting her preference. When others tried to put their emotional overlay of abortion-as-loss, failure or entrapment on her, pitying her, feeling sorry for her "loss," she realized in her own experience was neither a loss nor a tragedy nor a mistake. What was reprehensible and insulting was that other women were trying to put their emotional lunacy on her.

In her own words, "Feminism needs to help women and men grow up emotionally so the narrative that holds that all women organically need or are designed to inexorably become pregnant and have babies, that all conceptions are gifts from god, are sacrosanct predestined "natural" events that must never be circumvented, and all the other superstitious womby claptrap eventually becomes the minority narrative and not the dominant one."

. . .To not do so gives fuel to the anti-abortion movement because then it is only those who oppose abortion who are willing to hear its complicated stories.

Nonsense. While it's accurate to say the abortion rights movement should not shun the negative abortion experience narratives, it's grossly reckless to say that putting them in their minority context would be the same as shunning them. Secondly, the anti-abortion people are NOT in fact willing to hear abortion's complicated narratives. They cherry pick too, and for far more nefarious reasons. Let's not pretend, in our self-critique, that the anti-abortionist ilk are the honest dealers here by any stretch.

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» RE: Beautifully put Posted by: lightwing1
I say NO, NO, NO
Posted by: thealltheone on Sep 25, 2008 11:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one is pro abortion. the pro lifers adopted that phrase. It is not true. I am pro choice. That means, if you do not want an abortion, don't get one and we strongly believe in sex education. Pro lifers believe in no choice and abstinence programs that do not work and to have government make choices for us. I have a 18 year old son with a long time girl friend and they are both virgins BECAUSE of sex education. I went to Planned Parenthood five years ago for the morning after pill because I did not want to be pregnant at 45! This pill was approved to be over the counter years ago and is continually being blocked. Sex education works, abstinence does not! Look at the statistics. In 24 hours Bush will sign a new rule that would limit the rights of patients to receive complete and accurate reproductive health information when they visit a health care provider. Google "Pharmacists for Life" and see the list of pharmacies that will no longer fill our birth control prescriptions or transfer them to anther pharmacy. It does not just stop with Roe vs Wade. Just look at what has been recently brought up in Lou. by state law maker John Labruzzo. He wants to pay four women $1000 to have their tubes tied to stop generational welfare. It was brought up to pay poor women to be sterilized. However instead of offering ideas to add more jobs or education, the Nazi Republican wants to put this idea into law. Despite the fact that in that state only 17% of adult households in the poverty level have children, and 23% of the households without children also share the poverty level. are we living in a freak show or what! Seats will come up on the Supreme Court in the next four years. Our rights as women are up for grabs, Period. McSame/Palin are pro life, Obama/Biden are pro choice. End of argument.

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» RE: I say NO, NO, NO Posted by: fork
"Choice" versus Rights
Posted by: vasumurti on Sep 25, 2008 12:45 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A rational, secular case exists for the rights of the unborn. Individual human life is a continuum from fertilization until death. Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent, adult, etc. are all different stages of human development. To destroy that life at any stage of development is to destroy that individual.

The real question in the abortion debate is not the seemingly absurd scenario of giving full human rights to human zygotes, but rather the thorny question of how to legally protect those rights without violating a new mother's privacy and civil liberties. And the right to privacy is not absolute. If parents are abusing an already born child, for example, government "intrusion" is warranted--children have rights.

Recognizing the rights of another class of beings limits our freedoms and our choices and requires a change in our lifestyle--the abolition of (human) slavery is a good example of this. A 1964 New Jersey court ruling required a pregnant woman to undergo blood transfusions--even if her religion forbade it--for the sake of her unborn child. One could argue, therefore--apart from religion--that recognizing the rights of the unborn, like the rights of blacks, women, lesbians and gays, children, animals and the environment, is a sign of social progress.

This point was made clear by pro-life feminist Ginny Desmond Billinger, in an article entitled "Confessions of an Anti-Choice Fanatic," which originally appeared in the September/October 1982 issue of Minnesota Feminists For Life, and which later appeared in Pro-Life Feminism: Different Voices, in 1985:

"Let's take a look at just a few of the other issues that I, as an avowed antichoicer, am ready to address:

"Spouse and child beating--here, my position is unhesitatingly anti-choice. My perspective as a spouse, a parent, and a former child qualifies me to support all measures to remove from people the freedom to choose to abuse their family members--even in the privacy of their own homes.

"Drunk driving--Again, anti-choice. I'm afraid I must impose my morality on those who would choose to operate life-threatening machines while influenced by alcohol, and ask them to temporarily abstain from one or the other.

"Gun control--Despite the big-bucks, 'constitutional rights' lobbying by the NRA, I remain consistently anti-choice on this issue. The memory of a friend, forces me to reject any justification for handgun ownership without strict regulation.

"Endangered species protection--Faced with a whale-hunter or seal-clubber, I'll take a hard line anti-choice stand every time.

"Hazardous waste disposal--We're talking about the rights of corporate America vs. the average Joe here, but my anti-choice position still applies. The right to choose efficient business practices must always be weighed against the public's right to a safe environment. Ditto for occupational safety and health issues.

"I expect that these declarations will leave me open to censure; I will no doubt be labeled a heretic. The American principle of personal liberty would surely suffer with the propagation of my anti-choice philosophy...

"So call me what you will: pro-life, anti-choice, fetus-worshipper, anti-abortion. A thousand labels will never alter the certainty that the road to freedom cannot be paved with the sacrificed rights of others."

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» RE: "Choice" versus Rights Posted by: thealltheone
The hypocrisy of the "pro-life" moniker
Posted by: Kym525 on Sep 25, 2008 2:47 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just this week Louisiana state representative John LaBruzzo decided it would be a great idea to pay poor women (namely women of color) $1,000.00 to have their tubes tied, since in his opinion, the poor are a drain on the system because they have too many kids.

By the way, this loser comes from the same district as David "Sheet Wearing" Duke. They must grow them stupid down there or it's all that inbreeding.

Needless to say the silence from the pro-life contingent--especially pro-life feminists--is deafening to say the least. Isn't tubal ligation a form of BIRTH CONTROL and therefore undesirable? I guess not when it concerns women of color and poor women, since most of them have little to no access to decent pre and post-natal care.

I don't believe there's any such animal as a "pro-life feminist". If they cannot understand that life CONTINUES after birth and that every child deserves to be loved and valued--regardless of gender, race or orientation--then they are hypocrites. One cannot be "for women" but hold policies and beliefs that are antithetical to women and to children. One must be for equal access to education, housing, employment and health care. I really don't see that from "pro-life" feminists.

In order for me to be convinced that such a being exists, I need to hear that they believe in comprehensive and age-appropriate sex education--including but not limited to--abstinence. I need to hear that they care as much about Brenda from the hood or the barrio as they do about Bristol Palin. I need to hear that they believe women are more than capable of deciding when and IF to have children.

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» so, is this hypocrisy? Posted by: marykderr
The REAL question is "can One be Pro-Freedom and Not want Abortions"
Posted by: drblack on Sep 25, 2008 3:00 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes is the answer. It called BIRTH CONTROL.
Passing a law against abortion will result in the execution of many women...but it won't stop abortions any more than the War On Some Drugs stops drug use.
A law forcing pregnant women to give birth will make the situation worse and create more problems.

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Is Sarah Palin a feminist?
Posted by: crashgrab on Sep 25, 2008 3:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This may be a bit off topic, but I just read that Sarah Palin's office in Washington turned away a letter that was being delivered by an organization called Mom's Rising. All they wanted to know was where Sarah stands on the following issues, why doesn't she want to answer?

* Right now, the birth of a child is the number one cause of a "poverty spell" in America, and 1/4 of families with young children are living in poverty. Do you support a policy to provide paid family and medical leave to parents following birth or adoption of a new child?
* Nearly 1/2 of all full-time, private sector workers in the U.S. have no paid sick days. Do you support a policy to provide paid sick days for workers to use when they or their children get sick?

* In most American families, both parents work outside the home. Please tell us what your administration would do to help parents secure excellent, affordable childcare?

* Studies show that moms are paid 73 cents and single moms are paid about 60 cents to the dollar for doing the exact same job as men. Do you support the Fair Pay Restoration Act and the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act?

* A child is born every 41 seconds without healthcare. What kind of Health Care Policy could Americans expect in your administration?

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Wildly varying definitions of "life"
Posted by: PaulK on Sep 25, 2008 3:32 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two women will look at a clump of 1000 cells in their bodies. One will see a fully grown daughter or son taking care of her in her old age. The other will see the slice of skin that comes off the top of a blister, living tissue now but not in a few minutes.

Two men will look at a clump of 1000 cells. One, probably not the fetus's own father, will see another soldier eventually fighting for the fatherland. The father might see an end coming soon to his particular sexual relationship, as in, run for your life, she's fixing to trap you!

Both the legalization of contraception and the legalization of abortion are fueled by consistently divergent views of what those 1000 cells are. We need to separate the various movements.

First we have Negative Population Growth versus the politically overpopulating nationalists and religious nationalists. Do we need to overpopulate as a country or as a religious denomination so that we'll win the next war? The ancient Hebrews thought so, and stated that spilling sperm as a form of birth control was a sin that God would punish. Lots of people think we need to overpopulate our own country/religion in the 21st century. What do you think? Are you personally called to overpopulate, to crank those babies out by the half-dozen? Or do you want to have exactly two babies to maintain the genetic line of your parents?

Next we have babies as a way of cementing a sexual relationship. If you pull the goalie, you get to keep the guy forever. Alternatively, nailing the girl forces her into marriage. This technique sometimes works! It sometimes fails because one partner is appalled at the other's dishonesty.

Next we have, "Babies are so cute!" A baby will make you (the woman) more satisfied and fulfilled for the rest of your life! In reality, most married couples become more unhappy with life because of the baby.

Primitive cultures killed babies that had little or no chance at a normal life. Infanticide made room in the tribe for a healthy child. In times of starvation, infanticide made room in the tribe for an adult to live, so that the tribe could have more children later. In our modern culture 2/3 of fertilized eggs never implant, and women have a 15% chance of spontaneously aborting their fetuses. Abortion and worse is what humans always did, and miscarriage is what humans do.

Against this backdrop, all humans have a strong disgust at the idea of killing any infant. We're genetically bred to feel disgust. The tale of King Herod slaughtering a town full of baby boys due to astrological reasons was a powerful tale told against the Roman occupiers. Many indigenous tribes believe that if you kill an enemy you don't kill their children, rather, as a human being you raise their orphaned kids as your own.

So here we sit. We all have a revulsion for infanticide, and the greater part of us have a similar revulsion for abortion, but we sometimes do the hard thing because it's the right thing. Some of us want to ban contraception because maybe God demands that we get each other pregnant a certain minimum number of times.

I think that sorting out feelings, even if one side is closed up and doesn't want to talk much, is the first step to any resolution. Are you up for finding a partial resolution?

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» RE: Wildly varying definitions of "life" Posted by: outsideagitator
RE: absolutly he can
Posted by: thealltheone on Sep 25, 2008 6:00 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is called giving up your rights to that child.... It is done all the time. However, it takes two people to create a child and they both have the responsibility to prevent that child if they did not plan it,(meaning bith control, condoms, etc.) they also share the responsibility of that child if born. The mother goes through pain and body changes for nine months then usually raises that child, waking up at all times of the night, juggling job and child care, the least a father can do is pay his half of the responsibility! They money is for food and clothing, medical care etc. I can tell you must think that the prevention of that pregnancy is totally up to the woman? If so, You are sadly mistaken. It takes two! If the man was so dead set against an unplanned pregnancy, he should have thought of that and took measures. There are more dead beat dads than not. Two in my family alone. If this is your argument, you'e better and be sure to vote Obama, or there will be many more unplanned pregnancies than ever before my friend.

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RE: "If you don’t like abortions don’t have one"???
Posted by: thealltheone on Sep 25, 2008 6:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
have to agree with you there....

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pro-lifers are not Feminists
Posted by: WyrdSister on Sep 26, 2008 12:08 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From all the anti-choice sentiments I have read here, I would have to say no.

You cannot be "anti-choice" and call your self a Feminist.

You cannot call women who choose abortion "baby-killers" and call yourself a Feminist.

You cannot tout all the tired-ass arguments I have heard time and time again, like a script, from "Side-Walk Counselors", and call yourself a Feminist. (the slavery argument is my personal favorite)

You can't even call yourself "Pro-Life" if you support the death penalty or war.

If you do not support birth control, or comprehensive sex ed, you cannot call yourself a Feminist.

This line of thinking is removing ALL of women's choices; that is not Feminism, that is "anti-choice".

You cannot embrace everything that is apart of the "Pro-Life" movement and call yourself a Feminist as the "Pro-life" movement is "anti-woman". THAT is not Feminism.

Stop trying to commandeer a word that represents the exact opposite of your beliefs. It just a lame attempt to misprepresent yourselves and your "movement", and its just plain shameful.

But, then again, your leaders lie, so why should I expect any less.

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Yes, a new Red State Feminism is being born
Posted by: VMRH on Sep 30, 2008 12:08 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is so thoughtful. I am very glad it was posted. I never felt comfortable calling myself a feminist, because feminism had been defined in terms of a policy agenda I did not agree with on some very important issues. But I think that this year, probably because of Sarah Palin, you are seeing a whole new kind of feminism emerge: Red State Feminism. Red State Feminists embrace faith, motherhood, family, life, and are passionately committed to equal rights, opportunities and voice for women. These are the women who are the backbone of our country, who make the families run, and who do not think of themselves as feminists. I see now that I am a Red State Feminist, and that Blue State Feminists do not have sole proprietary rights to feminism. It is a very liberating feeling, after all these years of wandering in the wilderness.

If you think you might be a Red State Feminist, take the quiz:
http://redstatefeminists.org/createquiz3.htm

There are more of us than you might think!

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Abortion is good for women AND the planet
Posted by: Tooloose on Sep 30, 2008 1:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, let's briefly look at one of the right wing anti-woman comments to this article:

"Pregnancy and childbirth are natural. The ability to bear children is the ONE THING (emphasis added) which truly distinguishes women from men. Demanding the right to abort in order to achieve equality implies women must become males in order to compete and survive in a man’s world. We hold within our bodies the power of creation, the power to nourish and sustain life. We shall not pervert these to serve death.”

“Abortion is the destruction of human life and energy that does nothing to eradicate the very real underlying problems of women...

"If women must submit to abortion to preserve their lifestyle or career, their economic or social status, they are pandering to a system devised and run by men for male convenience.”

And now for my question, which doesn't get much play in the article:

WHAT IF A WOMAN SIMPLY DOES NOT WANT TO BE A MOTHER BECAUSE SHE JUST DOESN'T WANT TO DO IT?

Being a human female does not imply that you MUST procreate. It also doesn't imply that procreating is the only thing that will give your life meaning.

It also doesn't imply that you have to love children or want to be around them. I know many people, including myself, who don't want to be around children for very long. It's like cities to country people--they are interesting to visit, but only for a short time. The are extremely tiring and don't really sustain your interest. You wouldn't want to live there.

We live in a culture that makes Big Bucks from childhood accessories and healthcare and promotes women having babies by romanticizing motherhood constantly in the media.

We also live in a class-based society where the lower classes (middle on down) of families provide the cannon fodder for maintenance of the warring propensities of the Rulers and their financial and imperial empires. Most of you on this blog: Your kid equals potential cannon fodder, male or female.

I believe parenting is probably one of the hardest (and though glorified, one of the most under-appreciated) and certainly longest-term jobs on the planet, and it ain't my cup of tea, nor should it have to be in order for me to call myself a "woman."

And last, our planet is currently over-populated and getting worse everyday.
The distribution of wealth created by theft of the resources that should belong to everyone is grossly disproportionate, thus millions of children are dying daily from disease and starvation in 3rd world countries where there is no access to family planning or birth control.

All other species are being pushed out of their natural environments due to overpopulation. Water and air are being polluted. The planet is heating up and dying from carbon emissions, also directly related to overpopulation and the consumption that ensues.

THE PLANET WILL NOT SUPPORT THIS MUCH LONGER. She is already beginning to kick us off. We need to wise up. Abortion is a legitimate and useful form of birth control and should be encouraged for those who do not want children at this or any time, and should be SAFE, clean, and FREE!

And we need to confront the glorification of motherhood and "need" to give birth as a prerequisite for seeing oneself as "feminine" or a "real woman." It is a HEAVILY PROGRAMMED
definition of womanhood.

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No.
Posted by: dseilhan on Oct 8, 2008 8:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can't be for the outlawing of abortion and be a feminist. You can be against abortion for yourself, but believing that other women should be forced to remain pregnant is not a feminist belief. Period. If you don't believe in a woman's right to bodily integrity you are by definition not a feminist. Some other points:

1. You don't have to be anti-choice to acknowledge that some women regret abortion or had bad experiences with abortion.

2. You don't have to be anti-choice to be OK with young women or poor women or single women having children.

3. I am tired of the pro-choice movement throwing sops to the anti-choice movement by letting them call themselves "pro-life." That implies that because I want abortion to remain legal under all circumstances (as long as the woman freely consents) that I am anti-life or suicidal. Stop letting them control the discourse. They're lying.

As for adoption, I am vehemently against it the way it is currently practiced. I don't think enough is done to support women in nontraditional life circumstances if they choose to be mothers. Neither pro-choicers NOR anti-choicers do enough in this regard. Then again, many pro-choice people are not as "pro" about "choice" as they claim they are. Some pro-choicers genuinely agree with eugenics, as if something like poverty can be inherited through genes. And too many anti-choicers have the attitude of "you made your bed, now sleep in it", as evidenced by the ways they shape social policy.

But adoption as it is currently practiced means the breakup of families that didn't need breaking up, and it traumatizes children, even those who were adopted as newborns. Ask any social scientist who's studied the issue and he'll tell you there are more behavioral problems and mental health issues among the adopted, even those adopted as infants. There's a reason for this. Babies expect to be given to their real mothers, and to be raised by them. My own daughter recognized my voice immediately after she was born and it was the only thing that would calm her until they finally handed her to me. I think the only time a child should be adopted is if they're an orphan with no extended family that will take them in, or if they would suffer permanent damage or die if they were returned to their family. And that has to be an honest assessment, not, "Oh, he'll be scarred for life if his mother's a lesbian."

That's not how it goes, though. People who can't have kids think they are ENTITLED to someone else's. Kids are taken from their parents for stupid reasons. Society only supports women who want to order their lives like men do. Even men who have kids can be reasonably sure that they can secure free or low-cost childcare by way of the child's mother. Women do not have that reassurance; men who give more than token help raising their own children are still seen as exceptional and unusual.

Something's got to give here and I think it is wrongheaded to harp about abortion. If abortion is happening more than it otherwise would in a healthy society, the answer is to change society. But I guess it is easier to terrorize women, bomb clinics, pass repressive laws, and appease the people who do these things. A pox on both your houses.

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speaking as a prolife feminist...
Posted by: marykderr on Oct 10, 2008 9:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course anyone who calls herself a prolife feminist needs to be for all the measures that MomsRising advocates. I couldn't call myself one without doing this. I don't get how Sarah Palin can call herself one, too.

MomsRising and other resources for humane, truly family friendly policies are listed on the prolife feminist website I help to edit. Nonviolent Choice Directory.

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early feminist views: thoroughly documented
Posted by: marykderr on Oct 10, 2008 9:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Early feminist views on abortion are thoroughly documented in a book I helped to edit, ProLife Feminism Yesterday and Today, especially in the Second Expanded Edition.

Mary from the Nonviolent Choice Directory, nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

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