COMMENTS: 268
Think '70s Feminists Are Out of Touch? Not So Fast.
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Indeed, it seems that a lot of people have problems with white women, from our presumptive presidential nominees to feminists who are engaging in increasingly uncomfortable infighting over the implications of sexism vs. racism that emerged this year. There is a great post-primary feminist divide at the moment, and it has raised crucial questions about feminism and its origins, and why feminists and women in general remain so divided. Some of our traditional feminists like Gloria Steinem and Linda Hirshman have come under fire for sounding absolutist as they decry the rampant sexism of the campaign and express frustration over intersectionalism -- a brand of feminism that often buries gender issues in its efforts to highlight other forms of oppression.
In defense of Steinem, Hirshman and our so-called "bourgeois" members of the old feminist guard, I think their sense of urgency has less to do with this campaign and more to do with deep disappointment that the ol' "divide and conquer" thinking among women is so firmly in place. Sexism is still far behind the curve in beating the oppression game, and the feminist establishment is very worried. It is sending out calls for women to focus and adopt what I like to call "unity feminism."
These older white feminists are quickly written off as out of touch and even racist by intersectionalist feminists who say that women have a wide variety of problems to worry about, such as class, race and economics, and feminism must adopt many facets and causes to improve women's lives. Women of color have responded more specifically by saying that, frankly, they feel white women don't experience a fraction of the pain and suffering that women of color go through and it's difficult for them to relate. The overall sentiment is, "Hey, you privileged feminists, you don't get it. Move out of the way with your old-fashioned white feminism." As a reformed intersectionalist feminist, I say, not so fast.
Picture this: A young, privileged white woman grows up in an all-white, homogenous, Midwest community in the 1950s and '60s. She is beautiful and well-educated. She is middle-class, has no immediate economic worries and seems to have a bright future ahead of her.
Forty years later, she approaches retirement with permanent, debilitating brain damage from domestic violence that has robbed her of her memory and ability to care for herself for more than 20 years. Her Social Security benefits are routinely taken away on technicalities, and she doesn't qualify for Medicare. She receives a meager double-digit monthly income that isn't enough to fill a tank of gas, and she must rely on her kids for additional support. This woman happens to be my mother.
You can imagine how jarring it is for me to hear people say white women are too privileged and classist to understand the plight of less fortunate women. There is an assumption that white women are out of touch with the needs, suffering and pain of non-white women and therefore that "white women's" feminism is irrelevant. This is one of the biggest myths in feminism, and it must be dismantled or none of us will ever gain the rights, equality and safety we all deserve, and we definitely shouldn't discount Steinem and Hirshman so quickly. In fact, they have issued important warnings that we should heed.
Like many women, I too, have an eclectic and complex history of experiences. I'm ethnically Caucasian, and my family is from a small rural town in Western Europe, but I strongly identify with my Latino family by marriage, and my child is considered a person of color. I've lived in extremely varied environments -- a small town in West Africa, a rural farm in the Midwest, the projects in Manhattan, next to crack houses in Brooklyn, in a posh, gay neighborhood in Southern California, and even a temporary stint on the obscure island of Malta. I tell you this: Women have as much, if not more, in common with each other than they do with the men in their respective communities, countries and demographics. I've also come under fire from intersectionalist feminists for making statements like this. They say this type of thinking diminishes other problems that women of varied backgrounds face. I say no, all those other problems diminish the unique plight of women, who all exist under male power and oppression.
I once knew a Ghanaian woman named Ivy who lived in a small beach village on the shores of the Gulf of Guinea. She was very poor and lived hand to mouth in a way that I can never understand. She struggled with back pain from constant hard labor. And every night she cried. Not because of the work or the poverty, but because of her husband's beatings and relentless infidelities, and the frightening exposure to sexual diseases as a result.
My sister-in-law, Gloria, is a Puerto Rican woman who grew up in Spanish Harlem in the '80s at the height of the crack wars in New York. She has witnessed violence and crime in both New York and Puerto Rico that is beyond my imagination. She says white people should have done a better job of integrating her community and providing minorities with job opportunities and education at the time. These days her community is safer, she's a homeowner, and she feels that she now has more opportunities to enjoy the privileges that white people enjoy. While racism is always a peripheral concern, her most depressing problems continue to be with men. She's constantly afraid her philandering husband will leave her for another woman, and she struggles with the misogyny and disrespect she sees in her teenage boys.
As a screenwriter, I've rubbed shoulders with some of the most famous people in the entertainment industry and hung out in glamorous parties with glamorous white people. And wouldn't you know it -- even rich, famous white women in Hollywood are consistently degraded, humiliated and abused by the men in their lives.
Another myth about white women is that they only have to deal with misogyny from white men and therefore don't have as many problems with sexism as women of color. This belief is a farce in post-modern times. Ask any white woman who has endured daily street harassment or the multitudes of white women who work in the sex industry; they can assure you that men of all classes, races and nationalities are united in the pleasure they take in seeing all types of women being sexually humiliated. If that fact alone doesn't unite white women and women of color, I don't know what will.
Still not convinced of women's common condition? Then let's cut to the heart of oppression -- crime.
Since the Civil Rights movement, hate crimes, which the FBI defines as crimes against individuals based on nationality, race, disability or sexual orientation, have fallen to extremely low levels: There were only three confirmed hate-related homicides nationwide in 2004, for example. However, gender-based crime -- not included in the U.S. description of hate crimes -- continues to plague women in the United States and all over the world at alarming levels. According to the World Health Organization, all violence against women is committed almost exclusively by men. Sex trafficking and forced prostitution are on the rise, and female infanticide is still widely practiced. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, more than a quarter of U.S. women are still being raped. With the exception of Native American women, the percentage of rapes per capita of white women and women of color are almost identical -- 18 percent of all white women and 19 percent of all women of color. Of the thousands of women killed each year in the United States, roughly 50 percent are killed because of their gender. The United Nations reports that almost 50 percent of the world's population of women will suffer from gender-based violence in her lifetime.
Still, I often hear women of color say that because they've suffered from a considerable amount of racism from white women, it's hard to rally with them under the multilayered mechanics of oppression. That is fair enough, and unity feminism is speaking to racist white women as well. I say to them, "Stop identifying with your oppressor's racist values. You have more in common with your sisters of color than the man who beats you, physically or figuratively, each night."
In post-modern times, the single most destructive force in many women's lives is male hatred and oppression of women. I think it is this bigger picture that probably frustrates feminist leaders like Steinem and Hirshman. One major reason why women continue to be oppressed is because they continue to place other causes before their own. Intersectionalist feminism is a nice idea, if all the other intersecting ideas didn't constantly take priority over women's rights. Besides, traditional feminism believes that in order to solve the rest of the world's problems, women should be empowered first, not the other way around. The United Nations says that the fastest and best means of advancing human development is done by investing in women and girls, first and foremost. This is the backbone of feminism also, and our "out of touch" white feminist leaders simply ask that we not lose sight of our mission.
Some names of individuals have been changed to protect their privacy.
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» RE: SLICING OFF genital orifices...
Posted by: kimpohl
» Is there a law to shut you up?
Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: Is there a law to shut you up?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Is there a law to shut you up?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: SLICING OFF genital orifices...DUDE! you sound like an ......
Posted by: cherylsass123
» RE: Let's 'cut' to ACTUAL VAGINA SLICING crime...
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Let's 'cut' to ACTUAL VAGINA SLICING crime...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Let's 'cut' to ACTUAL VAGINA SLICING crime...
Posted by: EncinoM
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hagwind on Jul 11, 2008 4:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I do start coming up with names, among the first are Adrienne Rich, Audre Lorde, Gloria Anzaldúa, Barbara Smith, Mary Daly, Judy Grahn, Rita Mae Brown, bell hooks . . . If I kept going all day, I bet about 75 percent of the names would belong to women of color and lesbians and women who are/were both. Theirs/ours is a deeper, richer feminism than generally got heard in the mainstream media -- which we sometimes, not inaccurately, called the malestream media. Betty Friedan didn't care much for us either. ;-)
Something else that comes to mind is consciousness raising. CR is still one of the best tools I've ever heard of for building an inclusive movement: when theory is built and issues developed from the ground up in hundreds and thousands of kitchens and living rooms, then many voices are included and many more of us have our experiences and interests and struggles represented.
Feminism isn't a laundry list of "women's issues." Feminism is a way of looking at all issues (including the ones we haven't identified yet) with women's experience in the foreground. As we used to say in the 1970s -- and plenty of us are still saying today -- "Every issue is a women's issue."
Women tend to realize this. That's why you'll find women playing vital, though often invisible, roles in just about every movement you can think of. The guys love having us around, and with good reason: we work like mules and we don't expect to get paid. But as soon as we start expressing views and priorities that the guys don't share -- Robin Morgan got it right in the late 1960s in her essay "Goodbye to All That," "all that" being the sexism of the New Left.
None of this is new. An earlier version of "Goodbye to All That" might have been written by women in the U.S. abolition movement, but no, the men told them that "this is the Negro's hour" and, understanding the connectedness of issues, they subordinated their interests to the struggle at hand. When payback time came, well, the 15th Amendment didn't say anything about sex and it wasn't till the 19th was enacted fifty years later, after a long hard struggle, that women of any color got the vote.
What's the problem here? Why does feminism keep getting watered down, even as the need for it grows ever greater and more urgent? Here's a hint: Did the abolition movement feel compelled to take direction from plantation owners and others with a stake in the slave system? Did the civil rights movement include southern sheriffs and senators and the owners of segregated lunch counters in its planning meetings?
Nope. But an awful lot of women are awfully sensitive to male disapproval, often with good economic reason: we know what side our bread is buttered on, and no way are we going to give up butter. (I can't read Betty Friedan's post-Feminine Mystique books without gagging.) All anyone has to do is suggest that we're lesbians and it's "Not me! I love men." You don't have to be a lesbian to be a feminist, but you do have to be willing to say "So effing what if I am?"
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» RE: So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: emmas
» RE: So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Why men find it so threatening to clean up after themselves
Posted by: Cathyblj
» RE: scheherezade-So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: scheherezade-So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: scheherezade
» Hagwind's comment
Posted by: tngreen
» RE: So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: no1kstate
Comments are closed-
Posted by: desidid on Jul 11, 2008 5:02 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: There Is A Big Difference Between Understanding The Plight Of Women Of Color
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: There Is A Big Difference Between Understanding The Plight Of Women Of Color
Posted by: ladyoracle
» ladyoracle, your "history" didn't include
Posted by: Kym525
» Kym525
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Kym525
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Some Personal History
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Kym525, once again you are ignoring the wider history
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Maybe You Should Do Some Research Before Making False Statements
Posted by: desidid
» I have done my research
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: The Only Reason Whites Are A Majority Is
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Came right out and said it
Posted by: westomoon
» RE: There Is A Big Difference Between Understanding The Plight Of Women Of Color
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: There Is A Big Difference Between Understanding The Plight Of Women Of Color
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Q30 on Jul 11, 2008 6:13 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I started laughing at this point.
"Think I've got bad eating habits? Not so fast... I'll continue to eat lard unless..."
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 11, 2008 6:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The West could learn a lesson from the East on the Vedic Era
Posted by: jwverez
» But then the Abrahamic religions invaded
Posted by: dudelette
» From what I hear, more women in the Far East are starting to recognize this.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: child-marriages, dowry, female infanticide, mass-wife burning, Sati
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» Those things did not happen in the Vedic Era. Those things happened after the Vedic Era.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Not that I know much about Vedic Era, but there appears to be credible evidence
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» You got it all wrong again. You can't keep defending Islamfascism like that.
Posted by: maxpayne
» And here are the rest of the answers
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: And here are the rest of the answers
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: And here are the rest of the answers
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Sounds like your in-laws belong to BJP-RSS and believe in Hindutva ideology
Posted by: PakiBoy
» Err, no. It's the Christian/Muslim fundamentalists who
Posted by: jwverez
» * The above comment wasn't mine *
Posted by: jwverez
» What's wrong with Hinduism? Do you fear religious tolerance and diversity?
Posted by: jwverez
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sleepingdog on Jul 11, 2008 6:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i think it is instead: if there are more people willing to take other's causes, then both problems would be solved, and more as more come along. unity, universal suffrage. human rights for all humans.
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» You totally missed the point
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: You totally missed the point
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: You totally missed the point
Posted by: sleepingdog
» RE: You totally missed the point
Posted by: tngreen
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 11, 2008 7:01 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And 70s era femminsts, on principle, refuse to debate the elephant in the room: the encrouching conservatism of Islam and how that is re-shaping how women live their lives in urban environments. They don't touch it because it would be 'politically incorrect' to do so. And so, the great debate freeze continues.
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» I'm an older feminist and I'm happy to debate that elephant.
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: 70s era feminists can't talk to 21st century women - oh really?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: 70s era feminists can't talk to 21st century women
Posted by: tngreen
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PaulK on Jul 11, 2008 7:01 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Domestic abuse isn't a woman's issue
Posted by: Libertine
» RE: Domestic abuse isn't a woman's issue
Posted by: bizeeb
» RE: Domestic abuse isn't a woman's issue
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Domestic abuse isn't a woman's issue
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Domestic abuse isn't a woman's issue
Posted by: Lauren
» For over 90% of the victims, it is
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Domestic abuse is everyone's issue
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Domestic abuse is everyone's issue
Posted by: hagwind
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nfamous on Jul 11, 2008 7:07 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Very good point
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Very good point
Posted by: Lauren
» Conversations promote understanding.
Posted by: mcubed
» How about you shut up, too?
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: 1400 women are killed in US every year in the so-called 'domestic violence'
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Women complain too much.... with good reason
Posted by: hefalumpe
» RE: Women complain too much
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Women complain too much
Posted by: emmas
» RE: Women complain too much
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Women complain too much
Posted by: tngreen
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NYHippie on Jul 11, 2008 7:41 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course that would mean leaving her victimization behind and actually empowering a woman. And that is what my fellow 70's feminists just don't get.
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» RE: mpowerment vs. celebrating victimization
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: janvdb on Jul 11, 2008 7:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THIS IS BULLCRAP.
You want to talk about racism, fine. Go to a venue, a book, an article, whatever which is about racism.
But LET US WOMEN TALK ABOUT OUR ISSUES. That is feminism.
These crazy "women of color" are actually stopping feminism because everytime a feminist tries to actually be a feminist, she is told she has to stop doing that and start worrying about some other oppressed group.
I'm so SICK of this.
We aren't sitting at black people's rallies, standing up and telling anyone who discusses racism there that they are "out of touch" unless they talk about women's issues. That's their rally. Let them do their thing.
All feminists feel this way. Let the anti-racism groups do their thing.
But they won't let us do OUR thing. We have to stop talking about women, we have to talk about racism.
It's ridiculous and no one can tell me that black women have a damned thing to teach anyone about beating sexism; the facts don't indicate they have it figured out.
It's just a tactic being used to stop feminism making any progress.
STOP THIS DISTRACTION!! Women have serious problems. I think they are MORE serious than problems of race. And we need to work on them, NOT WORK ON PROBLEMS OF RACE.
Let the anti-racists do their thing. AND LET US WOMEN DO OUR THING.
If you only want to work on race, well, don't come to feminist events, boards, etc and try to stop the feminists doing their thing. If you want to work on both, work on racism when you are doing that and then, when you are working on women's issues, work on WOMEN'S ISSUES. Not race.
Jan VanDenBerg
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» RE: HURRAY for this article -- I TOTALLY agree
Posted by: mizani
» RE: HURRAY for this article -- I TOTALLY agree
Posted by: janvdb
» What Shirley Chisholm says on the subject
Posted by: Nebris
» This article is exactly why feminists have lost ground
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: This article is exactly why feminists have lost ground
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: This article is exactly why feminists have lost ground
Posted by: pomes
» RE: This article is exactly why feminists have lost ground
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: HURRAY for this article -- I TOTALLY agree
Posted by: aprendi
» RE: HURRAY for this article -- but I disagree with Jan's post
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: HURRAY for this article -- but I disagree with Jan's post
Posted by: Holla
» Oh, this is insane
Posted by: westomoon
» RE: Oh, this is insane
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WyrdSister on Jul 11, 2008 8:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And then there are the men who chime in with the most misogynistic statements I have ever heard. Thanks guys! Your so F*ckin' helpful. I guess articles about Feminism just sucks them out of the woodwork.
If you are a woman of color and are having issues because of your color, then join an anti-racism group; WHY would you feel the need tp put down, demean, or otherwise compromise what Feminists do. I really do not understand why women of any color would attack other women. NONE of us believe that feminism = only for white women. That's f*ckin' crock!
I am a feminist, and I stand up for WOMEN regardless of her color. I just cannot believe that there is THIS much separation. No wonder we cannot get 'women's issues' advanced if there is this much in-fighting.
Look, there are many issues that need to be addressed under the umbrella of "Women's Issues", but if we keep separating ourselves based on race then no one wins except the misogynists. If you think you have issues that are uniquely "women of color' issues, please inform me as to what they are and why do you feel the need to separate them out from all women's issues.
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» RE: Then why the need to silence women of color's voices?
Posted by: Kym525
» We're not telling you to shut up
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: We're not telling you to shut up
Posted by: desidid
» RE: We're not telling you to shut up
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: We're not telling you to shut up
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Women are Women regardless of color
Posted by: tngreen
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Opal on Jul 11, 2008 8:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sisters, wake up! And I mean women of every race and class. Our gender solidarity could really help our children and grandchildren in the coming turbulent days.
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» RE: opal
Posted by: WyrdSister
» With all due respect
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: desidid
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: Crazy H
» Like Opal I am not blonde, perky, young or rich
Posted by: stellabloo
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: Opal
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: emmas
» RE: Someone Who Get It
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Someone Who Get It
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fanny666 on Jul 11, 2008 9:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A recent AlterNet article about shaving pubic hair got 99 comments. A recent article about rape as a war crime got 5.
Here are some google results to point out what the movement has been focusing on:
Feminism "Sex and the City" gets 448,000 websites.
Feminism Rape Sudan gets 290,000
Feminism Rape Burma OR Myanmar gets 117,000
One of the reasons that white feminists are considered irrelevant by many- and why many dark-skinned women don't want to be associated with the term "feminist" and prefer the term "womanist" is for those same reasons: white feminists' obsession with self and with pop culture and pleasure and aesthetics while all over the world females face much, MUCH more severe oppression.
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» RE: What ARE the priorities of feminism?
Posted by: lindawageck1
» lindawageck1
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: What ARE the priorities of feminism?
Posted by: desidid
» You're not understanding my point.
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: You're not understanding my point.
Posted by: desidid
» I should have mentioned...
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: I should have mentioned...
Posted by: desidid
» Op/Ed articles invite discussion, News may not.
Posted by: mcubed
» RE: Op/Ed articles invite discussion, News may not.
Posted by: fanny666
» Happy Saturday
Posted by: mcubed
» RE: Op/Ed articles invite discussion, News may not.
Posted by: MamaPantz
» RE: What ARE the priorities of google?
Posted by: Angela History
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kym525 on Jul 11, 2008 10:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You uppity black, latina and asian women, it's all YOUR fault that Hilary wasn't the Democratic nominee because you didn't tow the privileged white mainstream feminist party line and vote for THE woman. You DARED to assert that RACISM was just as important as SEXISM.
There were many feminists of color who did vote for Hilary in the primaries (I wasn't one of them), but having spoken with many, they were ambivalent because they felt--and Gloria Steinem's hatchet op-ed piece didn't help matters--that they were being told that their lives dealing with both racism AND sexism didn't matter.
Sorry ladies, but as a lifelong feminist of color, separating race and gender is a false choice that I will not make, and I will not be made to feel guilty because I am demanding my place at the feminist table. Both are hurdles that many of us face and succeed against everyday. They are also hurdles that are slowly destroying urban communities and creating a class of young women with no way out and no hope. It is the height of arrogance (and proves the point of privilege) that white feminists want to be the final arbiters of what is a feminist issue and what is not.
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» RE: Feminists of color are seen as leaders
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Feminists of color are seen as leaders
Posted by: Holla
» RE: Kym525 Why Do You Keep Acting As If White Women Have Let Go Of Their Racial
Posted by: desidid
» This is the divisiveness we're talking about
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: This is the divisiveness we're talking about
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dudelette on Jul 11, 2008 10:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, the Catholic Church would never give up its control over the sex lives and reproduction of its members, because that would reduce the number of children born into the church, and it would increase the likelihood that people would leave the church as they became better educated and had a better quality of life as that would make them less dependent on the church, so it was immediately rejected by the Pope.
The point is always that if a woman has rights, no matter her race, religion or where she lives, life in general improves for everyone.
In the 19th century women's movement, the women joined with the abolitionist movement and other movements, including labor movements. What happened? The 14th amendment, labor unions, the final freeing of the slaves. What happened to the women's rights? Not a d**n thing. Black men might no longer be slaves, but their wives were still considered chattel to their husbands.
Every day I see prejudice against women on the job, simply and only because they are women. White, black, Asian, it doesn't matter. They're denied promotions and raises. They're left out of meetings "accidentally." They're given the worst assignments, and if they have any problems, it's "because she's a woman," not because the assignment deadline was impossible to meet, or the information required was not given, or the subordinates who were delegated tasks simply don't take orders from a woman seriously.
What's the old saying? "Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good . . . ."
Here's an applicable study: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/90120.php
Shirley Chisholm said she suffered more prejudice as a woman than from being black.
While I believe in true, equal civil rights for everyone, I'm still going to put the rights of women first in my life, because until women truly have equal rights, no one will have equal rights.
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» The Author may be Right, but her message is all WRONG
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: The Author may be Right, but her message is all WRONG
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: The Author may be Right, but her message is all WRONG
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: isnt that what we have ALL been saying here?
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: isnt that what we have ALL been saying here?
Posted by: Holla
» RE: isnt that what we have ALL been saying here?
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: isnt that what we have ALL been saying here?
Posted by: Holla
» RE: The Author is Right, and She's Backed by Lots of Studies
Posted by: desidid
» RE: The Author is Right, and She's Backed by Lots of Studies
Posted by: Holla
» RE: The Author is Right, and She's Backed by Lots of Studies
Posted by: Opal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Blue Heron on Jul 11, 2008 10:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Speaking truth to power
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Speaking truth to power
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Speaking truth to power?Laura Bush killed her master
Posted by: bouyant
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Posted by: azul on Jul 11, 2008 11:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: exceptions
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: exceptions
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: EncinoM on Jul 11, 2008 12:17 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-or-
Voting for a presidential canidate, regardless of the gender.
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» Voting for the president most likely to preserve and expand your rights
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Voting for the president most likely to preserve and expand your rights
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jul 11, 2008 12:32 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women of color have been discriminated against since the day they were brought in chains to this new world. As a white woman - though you may believe those catcalls that you pass by put you into the same category of understanding women of color - still you can not.
See women of color everyday are reminded that their beauty isn't "the standard" beauty. Or because culturally we are diverse - we can not "blend into" the white culture. As white women believe that just to be allowed to take off the veil is liberating - there is a whole part of culture that is being missed.
Everywhere the white man went he brought not just his poisonous hatred of other with him,and it became ingrained into the men of the cultures that were conquered. Or worse yet treated the women of those cultures as receptacles for his own sadistic pursuits. As a result many cultures adopted not just ways of "protection" for their woman (e.g.- genital mutilation, the veil, etc.)to both "save" them and keep the men from feeling emasculated by their "conquerers".
White women have no understanding of these issues. During slavery they were held up as the ideal woman, and today they are paraded on magazines, and held up the standard by which we judge women from other cultures as the ideal.
This presidential cycle where white women were up in arms when Sen. Obama came out the nominee showed much to everyone that cared to stop, look, and listen as not only Sen. Clinton showed herself to be a poor sport, but a poor sport that would do or say anything and appeal to the baser instincts of W.V. voters when she gave her speech there. As for the women interviewed that stated heatedly and flatly that they would vote Republican rather than vote for Obama - I think that's akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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» Speak truth to power, spiritgirl!!!
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: No, women are not the same
Posted by: Hopscotch123
» Here we go again
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Here we go again
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: No, women are not the same
Posted by: Lauren
» If you think that's bad, check out the colored women differences in Asia.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: No, women are not the same
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: No, women are not the same
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Cathyc on Jul 11, 2008 1:29 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This woman is not suffering from a lack of "feminism". Rather, she's still afflicted with the self-hatred she obviously internalised (learnt) as a child, which is why (a) she is married to an abusive man and (b) is passing on those same 'values' to her own sons.
" -- even rich, famous white women in Hollywood are consistently degraded, humiliated and abused by the men in their lives."
Domestic abuse is not confined to any one 'class' and has nothing to do with so-called femiminism. But it has a LOT to do with self respect - whether male or female.
"Ask any white woman who has endured daily street harassment or the multitudes of white women who work in the sex industry; they can assure you that men of all classes, races and nationalities are united in the pleasure they take in seeing all types of women being sexually humiliated. If that fact alone doesn't unite white women and women of color, I don't know what will."
I'm a white ("middle-class") woman and I don't identify with women (of any color) who experience abuse and violence on a daily basis - although I am very much aware of the fact that such women (and men) exist. I suppose that's because I have a different set of values and beliefs than those who believe that such everyday abuse and violence is normal. Such abnormal behaviour only goes on in a war situation.
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» RE: The personal is not always political
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: The personal is not always political
Posted by: Hopscotch123
» Avoiding Abuse with "Values" ?
Posted by: mcubed
» Please Tell Us Where You Live
Posted by: bcgirl125
» RE: Please Tell Us Where You Live
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: It Isn't My Reality Either
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pomes on Jul 11, 2008 2:50 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Indeed
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Feminism itself is 'divide and conquer'
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: susnow on Jul 11, 2008 3:37 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) They have ignored working-class women. Hard-won labor rights have been chipped away during the past thirty years and they haven't even batted an eyelash.
2) They have massively betrayed Arab and Muslim women by not protesting the Iraq War and by not supporting Palestinian women (I'm refering to NOW in particular).
2) They have ignored anti-globalization issues (see number 1).
3) And most egregiously, they have changed from an *empowerment* perspective into a *rescue* perspective. Example: second-wave feminism used to take the position that prostitution should be decriminalized, and they took this position for the same reason they took for abortion. Her body, her choice. If she wants to charge for sex, she should be able to do so. Now its, "We have to rescue them! We have to rescue those poor women! Whether they want to be rescued or not!"
No, what feminism is supposed to be about is empowerment. Not just for a few upper-class yuppie women, but for ALL women. Working-class women, Third-World women, and even those make their living in such a way that offends yuppie women's sensibilities. Empowerment.
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» RE: Second-Wave Feminism is Dead (especially the National Organization for Women)
Posted by: DCBeltway
» RE: Second-Wave Feminism is Dead (especially the National Organization for Women)
Posted by: Holla
» RE: Second-Wave Feminism is Dead (especially the National Organization for Women)
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Second-Wave Feminism is Dead (especially the National Organization for Women)
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Second-Wave Feminism is Dead (especially the National Organization for Women)
Posted by: cherylsass123
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mumblefaery on Jul 11, 2008 3:39 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For the record, I'm white - I was also raised in poverty and have spent much of my adult life crawling out of that lifestyle, so please don't group me into your "white women of privilege" pigeonhole. I've lived in varying circumstances from the rural south to the street to the inner city in my short time on this earth. That doesn't put me in any better or less of a position to have an opinion, but I find the idea that I've somehow lived a privileged life to be laughable. I guarantee you I've worked very hard to be where I'm at today, and I still struggle.
I think the main point I'd like to address from this article is that it's not discounting racism. I think you would be hard-pressed to find anyone on here that thinks that racism isn't a HUGE issue all over the world and certainly is much worse in other countries. Does that discount the feminist movement? Does it take away from the fact that women are raped, abused, mistreated in the workforce through male aggression and intimidation? I don't think so. I also whole-heatedly agree that women who are mistreated by our government of any race is definitely a woman's issue.
What I don't understand is how women who believe that feminism should stay true to it's original cause should be treated like racists. It's not that racism should take a back seat to feminism - it's that in the arena where feminism is involved, all women need to unite to see this through and unite for woman's rights. In the arena where racism is involved, everyone needs to be involved regardless of race, creed, or gender. I don't think there is any point in this article where women of color are told that they should stop fighting racism, nor should they pretend that they are either black or a woman.
Personally, I take it upon myself to try to address several causes - feminism, animal rights, race equality - but I differentiate between the causes. I stand up proudly with all of my sisters when I say "We've had enough!" Just like I stand with every human being that says "We've had enough!" But we all have to pick our battles, and I don't look down on people that choose differently than I do.
Another thing I don't understand and have found myself arguing with several feminists about is why the Hilary vs Barack debate became a feminism vs racism debate. I'm a feminist, but I voted for Obama because I feel that he is the best person for the job - The best PERSON. Isn't that what feminism is, equality of gender? I do like Hilary, and I think she has a better suited purpose ahead of her, but my hope for this country lies with Barack.
If a woman votes for McCain because she wants to "get back at" Obama, than she sounds ignorant is isn't really the definition of what I would consider a feminist.
Sorry I skipped around on this a bit, but my point is, women need to stand together for women's rights, and everyone needs to stand together for human rights. In the arena of feminism, I stick to the root and I go from there. I've never found my skin color to do me any favors - it certainly never prevented me from being raped against my will, beaten against my will, raised by a single mother who could barely keep our heads above water, living on the street, nor robbed at gun point.
OH, and to the woman on this forum who thinks that women with low self-esteem choose to be in abusive situations, I would love to live in your world where everything is so black and white. I certainly didn't know I was going to be in a abusive situation when I met the guy. I definitely left him when I could, but it certainly wasn't my low self-esteem that kept me in that situation - it was fear. And regardless of what you think you know about women in those situations, it involves the mistreatment of women and is most definitely a woman's issue.
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» Privilege is NOT about money
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Privilege is NOT about money
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: your right,
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: Holla
» RE: your right,
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: mumblefaery
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: john4244
» RE: your right,
Posted by: mumblefaery
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: Privilege is NOT about money
Posted by: mumblefaery
» RE: Privilege is NOT about money
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: The Problem Is Who Is Determining What The Issues Are and In What Order of Importance.
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ayala on Jul 11, 2008 4:30 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: oh for gods sake, black slavery is over
Posted by: Holla
» RE: oh for gods sake, black slavery is over
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: oh for gods sake, black slavery is over
Posted by: Holla
» RE: oh for gods sake, black slavery is over
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kym525 on Jul 11, 2008 5:11 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The lingering social inequalities that plague us in the 21st century are invariably interlinked to a patriarchal power structure that enjoys seeing progressive movements fail. Racism did not grow out of a vacuum nor did sexism. Both has been justified by religion and culture. So why is it so difficult to embrace both without diminishing either?
I am grateful not only to my strong mother and grandmother and other pre-feminist women who were before there was a name or a movement, but I am grateful to the feminist movement as a whole. Which is why it hurts my heart to see white feminists completely blow off women of color. This is the kind of tactic used by the patriarchy to silence women, regardless of color or class--it's rather ironic that white women are using the exact same tactic.
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» They aren't blowing off women of color
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: but that's just it...
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: They aren't blowing off women of color
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: They aren't blowing off women of color
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: They aren't blowing off women of color
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: WHO decides what a feminist cause should be?
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: WHO decides what a feminist cause should be?
Posted by: daniel347x
» Superb comment, Kym
Posted by: westomoon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: daniel347x on Jul 11, 2008 9:59 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-Pitting oppression against oppression
-on the verge of claiming that white woman can't be racist or classist
-speaking out against the interconnection of oppressions and singling out one oppression (oppression of women) as more fundamental thsn other serious forms of oppression
-while lauding the second wave feminists as the most insightful, ignoring the second wave teachings on the interconnectedness of oppression, the anti-capitalist, 'sisters remaking the system' essential teaching of the most real second wave feminists
------------------------------------
I could go on, but I'll leave it at that for now.
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» *** ABOVE COMMENT IS NOT MY POSTING ***
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: *** ABOVE COMMENT IS NOT MY POSTING ***
Posted by: desidid
» RE: this is a despicable article
Posted by: dave246
» good stuff
Posted by: sleepingdog
» RE: this is a despicable article, that you obviously didn't read
Posted by: ayala
» RE: you don't get it
Posted by: ayala
» RE: you don't get it
Posted by: mumblefaery
» RE: you don't get it
Posted by: Holla
Comments are closed-
Comments are closed-
Posted by: realmuzik on Jul 13, 2008 1:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is at least one resource with a mission to: Check it out.
Enough with the bickering and drama-trolling. If you don't like what you see, step away from your computer screen and get active. I do, and I live in a rural neighborhood full of Ron Paul worshippers , "Born Again" pro-birthers, Bible home-schoolers, and homophobes.
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Posted by: tngreen on Jul 13, 2008 12:04 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In addition to fighting culture-centricity, we must overcome biology. The feminine impulse to cooperate rather than compete must surely be selected "for," evolutionarily speaking. While cooperation is a good thing in most situations, the desire to get along can result in our neglecting our own interests to the benefit of others. Demanding to be treated well does not come naturally to many women and in fact we sometimes do not even recognize ill treatment.
Thus I believe that the key to change must begin with women. We must cultivate within ourselves an awareness of discrimination and oppression as well as strategies for confronting it. Only then can we negotiate an equal share in power with men.
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Posted by: westomoon on Jul 13, 2008 3:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the "feminists" who claimed that Clinton's gender alone made it sexism not to vote for her (a stance we would have instantly identified as sexist back in the 70's) were an odd mix of women who have made a profit out of being feminist, and women who were the right age for it but missed the "second wave" back in the day. What I saw from them was so different from what I know as feminism, I have to characterize it as neo-feminism. It is as warped a reflection of feminism as the Radical Right is of conservatism. This neofeminism is certainly no third wave, but instead a strange, hysterical, whiny, and above all divisive thing that chooses gender victimization alone as its focus.
Some of the comments above brought back such wonderful memories -- in the 70's, second-wavers were serious enough about women's oppression that they took on the additional issues that oppressed women of color and of non-mainstream sexual orientation or abilities. If it was my sister's cross to bear, it was mine too. Feminist events were among the first to routinely include sign interpreters, wheelchair accessibility, union-label requirements, and boycotting of localities where mistreatment of people of color was extreme and public. I refuse to let these neofeminists' tantrums usurp the proud herstory of 70's feminism.
And that brings me to my final point, one which has been made several times above deep in the threads, but one which deserves to be trumpeted over and over. The "post-primary division" this author bemoans is the direct result of the extraordinary racism expressed and encouraged by the Clinton campaign. To an old "70's feminist" like me, that was, and remains, shocking and unforgivable.
I know Mrs. Clinton's neofeminist followers believe that the Obama camp was responsible for their unbelievable remarks being identified as racism. (I don't think I will ever forget Gerri Ferraro telling the press that not only was she not going to apologize for her statement that Obama was a candidate only because of his race, but saying that she felt he owed her an apology.) So long as these soi-disant "feminists" continue to believe they can't be wrong because they're women, you can count on this old white feminist being on the far side of the "racial divide" this author so distortedly perceives.
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» RE: She doesn't speak for this "70's feminist"
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: She doesn't speak for this "70's feminist"
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal on Jul 13, 2008 7:51 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Gloria Steinem was a CIA Operative
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: Kym525 on Jul 14, 2008 9:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, it is the privileged white feminists (and you know who you are), who keep trying to decide for women of color what fights we as feminists should be engaged in. They blame the fight against racism for not getting the ERA passed--when the truth is it was privileged white women like Phyllis Schafly, who frightened midwest and southern white women with the notion that the ERA would mean they would have to share public restrooms with men. These women say to us "we understand racism--somewhat--but being a woman must come first". This is a false choice and it is one that obviously stems from a group of women too close to the very patriarchy they oppose.
I'm sorry that as a woman of color that I don't rank Sex in the City as some "feminist groundbreaking" film right up there with young black girls losing ground in education and being bombarded with negative images.
I will say it again: We women of color DO NOT have the luxury of separation. Every single day of our lives we are mis-treated due to both gender AND race. Just this weekend I was followed around a store by a rent-a-cop who saw my COLOR ONLY. This wasn't gender-based. He saw BLACK and he thought CRIMINAL. I went to his supervisor and let them both know I refuse to patronize an establishment where such profiling occurs.
Women of color suffer disproportionately from health problems, violence and access to child care and educational opportunities. This is not just due to gender but also historic RACIAL DISCRIMINATION.
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Jul 14, 2008 3:15 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That quote from this essay goes right along with sagacious pronouncements like "All men are rapists and that's all they are," (Marilyn French).
"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men..." (Elizabeth Cady Stanton, "One Woman, One Vote", Wheeler, p.58.)
Gee, LIzzie, that must be why you're complaining about being raped, beaten, and paid less than men.
"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." .... "You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs." (Catherine MacKinnon - Prominent feminist scholar at the University of Michigan and Yale)
Golly, Catherine, do you mean to tell me this happens to EVERY woman?
"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it." (Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan)
Then why is it that every year, literally thousands of men risk their lives in order to go to the rescue of other people - many of these rescues not on television the next day"
"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig"....."Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman." ...."for a woman, the home is the most dangerous place in the world!" .... "The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an eternity of being used." .... "Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." (Andrea Dworkin).
Has Andrea been tranquilized and locked up yet? I hope so, poor thing.
"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release." (Germaine Greer)
All the heroes of history, combat, exploration (including space), and the like werent' "secure?" Surely, you jest (or have a problem with your memory and knowledge of history.
"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." (Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students).
Sure, we learn what a nation ruled by women would be like.
There's another quote, by a man (Ralph Waldo Emerson): "What you are thunders so loudly, I can't hear what you say to the contrary." More, females will remain where they are in the struggle for rights and equality under the law so long as they continue to shoot themselves in the foot with utter tripe like this. You can scream at the top of your lungs, all of you, that a pig can fly; but it won't make anyone believe a pig can fly; and it won't make a pig that can fly.
When women can stop talking nonsense and trying to force it upon society by political means, they will find that all the men they have vilified so irrationally and unfairly are the one ally they have always needed. It's like trying to survive in the jungle, girls: you need a man (the reason Mother Nature made things the way she did).
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» RE: not true! women do NOT need a man to stand by them and protect them.
Posted by: cherylsass123
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DRNO on Jul 14, 2008 10:00 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THAT is one of the reasons why women of color do not tend to respond to 70's feminism. It is also part of the reason they insist on dealing with issues of race and class. They have studied feminist history and know that they are often forgotten. The reality for women of color is that their lives intersect on lines of race and class as well. Feminism is not their only struggle. It will never be as long as racism and class issues persist.
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» RE: unrefined thinking
Posted by: Holla
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rickiey on Jul 14, 2008 10:35 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey stupid, you already have it and more.
In the most important aspects of life, women have more rights than men, and yet you are whining.
If it weren't so sad for all of the male victims out there, it would be funny.
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» RE: olling my eyes.
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: desidid on Jul 16, 2008 5:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: WyrdSister on Jul 17, 2008 8:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
attack on contraception
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Posted by: WyrdSister on Jul 17, 2008 8:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
attack on contraception
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» RE: hey...where are you guys!?
Posted by: WyrdSister
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Posted by: no1kstate on Jul 17, 2008 9:48 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know that for some women of color, racism as an issue takes precedence over sexism. But that's not for all women of color. Most "intersectionalists" I've come across try their hardest to advocate for the end of all forms of oppression.
It's only from white feminists that I've heard a call to focus solely on the issues of white, middle class women. So, I understand your point. But intersectionalists aren't the problem.
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» RE: SLICING OFF genital orifices...
Posted by: kimpohl
» Is there a law to shut you up?
Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: Is there a law to shut you up?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Is there a law to shut you up?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: SLICING OFF genital orifices...DUDE! you sound like an ......
Posted by: cherylsass123
» RE: Let's 'cut' to ACTUAL VAGINA SLICING crime...
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Let's 'cut' to ACTUAL VAGINA SLICING crime...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Let's 'cut' to ACTUAL VAGINA SLICING crime...
Posted by: EncinoM
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hagwind on Jul 11, 2008 4:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I do start coming up with names, among the first are Adrienne Rich, Audre Lorde, Gloria Anzaldúa, Barbara Smith, Mary Daly, Judy Grahn, Rita Mae Brown, bell hooks . . . If I kept going all day, I bet about 75 percent of the names would belong to women of color and lesbians and women who are/were both. Theirs/ours is a deeper, richer feminism than generally got heard in the mainstream media -- which we sometimes, not inaccurately, called the malestream media. Betty Friedan didn't care much for us either. ;-)
Something else that comes to mind is consciousness raising. CR is still one of the best tools I've ever heard of for building an inclusive movement: when theory is built and issues developed from the ground up in hundreds and thousands of kitchens and living rooms, then many voices are included and many more of us have our experiences and interests and struggles represented.
Feminism isn't a laundry list of "women's issues." Feminism is a way of looking at all issues (including the ones we haven't identified yet) with women's experience in the foreground. As we used to say in the 1970s -- and plenty of us are still saying today -- "Every issue is a women's issue."
Women tend to realize this. That's why you'll find women playing vital, though often invisible, roles in just about every movement you can think of. The guys love having us around, and with good reason: we work like mules and we don't expect to get paid. But as soon as we start expressing views and priorities that the guys don't share -- Robin Morgan got it right in the late 1960s in her essay "Goodbye to All That," "all that" being the sexism of the New Left.
None of this is new. An earlier version of "Goodbye to All That" might have been written by women in the U.S. abolition movement, but no, the men told them that "this is the Negro's hour" and, understanding the connectedness of issues, they subordinated their interests to the struggle at hand. When payback time came, well, the 15th Amendment didn't say anything about sex and it wasn't till the 19th was enacted fifty years later, after a long hard struggle, that women of any color got the vote.
What's the problem here? Why does feminism keep getting watered down, even as the need for it grows ever greater and more urgent? Here's a hint: Did the abolition movement feel compelled to take direction from plantation owners and others with a stake in the slave system? Did the civil rights movement include southern sheriffs and senators and the owners of segregated lunch counters in its planning meetings?
Nope. But an awful lot of women are awfully sensitive to male disapproval, often with good economic reason: we know what side our bread is buttered on, and no way are we going to give up butter. (I can't read Betty Friedan's post-Feminine Mystique books without gagging.) All anyone has to do is suggest that we're lesbians and it's "Not me! I love men." You don't have to be a lesbian to be a feminist, but you do have to be willing to say "So effing what if I am?"
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» RE: So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: emmas
» RE: So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Why men find it so threatening to clean up after themselves
Posted by: Cathyblj
» RE: scheherezade-So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: scheherezade-So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: scheherezade
» Hagwind's comment
Posted by: tngreen
» RE: So are we ready yet to stare down the lavender herring?
Posted by: no1kstate
Comments are closed-
Posted by: desidid on Jul 11, 2008 5:02 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: There Is A Big Difference Between Understanding The Plight Of Women Of Color
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: There Is A Big Difference Between Understanding The Plight Of Women Of Color
Posted by: ladyoracle
» ladyoracle, your "history" didn't include
Posted by: Kym525
» Kym525
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Kym525
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Some Personal History
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Kym525, once again you are ignoring the wider history
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Maybe You Should Do Some Research Before Making False Statements
Posted by: desidid
» I have done my research
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: The Only Reason Whites Are A Majority Is
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Came right out and said it
Posted by: westomoon
» RE: There Is A Big Difference Between Understanding The Plight Of Women Of Color
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: There Is A Big Difference Between Understanding The Plight Of Women Of Color
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Q30 on Jul 11, 2008 6:13 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I started laughing at this point.
"Think I've got bad eating habits? Not so fast... I'll continue to eat lard unless..."
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 11, 2008 6:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The West could learn a lesson from the East on the Vedic Era
Posted by: jwverez
» But then the Abrahamic religions invaded
Posted by: dudelette
» From what I hear, more women in the Far East are starting to recognize this.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: child-marriages, dowry, female infanticide, mass-wife burning, Sati
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» Those things did not happen in the Vedic Era. Those things happened after the Vedic Era.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Not that I know much about Vedic Era, but there appears to be credible evidence
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» You got it all wrong again. You can't keep defending Islamfascism like that.
Posted by: maxpayne
» And here are the rest of the answers
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: And here are the rest of the answers
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: And here are the rest of the answers
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Sounds like your in-laws belong to BJP-RSS and believe in Hindutva ideology
Posted by: PakiBoy
» Err, no. It's the Christian/Muslim fundamentalists who
Posted by: jwverez
» * The above comment wasn't mine *
Posted by: jwverez
» What's wrong with Hinduism? Do you fear religious tolerance and diversity?
Posted by: jwverez
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sleepingdog on Jul 11, 2008 6:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i think it is instead: if there are more people willing to take other's causes, then both problems would be solved, and more as more come along. unity, universal suffrage. human rights for all humans.
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» You totally missed the point
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: You totally missed the point
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: You totally missed the point
Posted by: sleepingdog
» RE: You totally missed the point
Posted by: tngreen
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 11, 2008 7:01 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And 70s era femminsts, on principle, refuse to debate the elephant in the room: the encrouching conservatism of Islam and how that is re-shaping how women live their lives in urban environments. They don't touch it because it would be 'politically incorrect' to do so. And so, the great debate freeze continues.
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» I'm an older feminist and I'm happy to debate that elephant.
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: 70s era feminists can't talk to 21st century women - oh really?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: 70s era feminists can't talk to 21st century women
Posted by: tngreen
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PaulK on Jul 11, 2008 7:01 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Domestic abuse isn't a woman's issue
Posted by: Libertine
» RE: Domestic abuse isn't a woman's issue
Posted by: bizeeb
» RE: Domestic abuse isn't a woman's issue
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Domestic abuse isn't a woman's issue
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Domestic abuse isn't a woman's issue
Posted by: Lauren
» For over 90% of the victims, it is
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Domestic abuse is everyone's issue
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Domestic abuse is everyone's issue
Posted by: hagwind
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nfamous on Jul 11, 2008 7:07 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Very good point
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Very good point
Posted by: Lauren
» Conversations promote understanding.
Posted by: mcubed
» How about you shut up, too?
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: 1400 women are killed in US every year in the so-called 'domestic violence'
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Women complain too much.... with good reason
Posted by: hefalumpe
» RE: Women complain too much
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Women complain too much
Posted by: emmas
» RE: Women complain too much
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Women complain too much
Posted by: tngreen
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NYHippie on Jul 11, 2008 7:41 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course that would mean leaving her victimization behind and actually empowering a woman. And that is what my fellow 70's feminists just don't get.
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» RE: mpowerment vs. celebrating victimization
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: janvdb on Jul 11, 2008 7:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THIS IS BULLCRAP.
You want to talk about racism, fine. Go to a venue, a book, an article, whatever which is about racism.
But LET US WOMEN TALK ABOUT OUR ISSUES. That is feminism.
These crazy "women of color" are actually stopping feminism because everytime a feminist tries to actually be a feminist, she is told she has to stop doing that and start worrying about some other oppressed group.
I'm so SICK of this.
We aren't sitting at black people's rallies, standing up and telling anyone who discusses racism there that they are "out of touch" unless they talk about women's issues. That's their rally. Let them do their thing.
All feminists feel this way. Let the anti-racism groups do their thing.
But they won't let us do OUR thing. We have to stop talking about women, we have to talk about racism.
It's ridiculous and no one can tell me that black women have a damned thing to teach anyone about beating sexism; the facts don't indicate they have it figured out.
It's just a tactic being used to stop feminism making any progress.
STOP THIS DISTRACTION!! Women have serious problems. I think they are MORE serious than problems of race. And we need to work on them, NOT WORK ON PROBLEMS OF RACE.
Let the anti-racists do their thing. AND LET US WOMEN DO OUR THING.
If you only want to work on race, well, don't come to feminist events, boards, etc and try to stop the feminists doing their thing. If you want to work on both, work on racism when you are doing that and then, when you are working on women's issues, work on WOMEN'S ISSUES. Not race.
Jan VanDenBerg
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» RE: HURRAY for this article -- I TOTALLY agree
Posted by: mizani
» RE: HURRAY for this article -- I TOTALLY agree
Posted by: janvdb
» What Shirley Chisholm says on the subject
Posted by: Nebris
» This article is exactly why feminists have lost ground
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: This article is exactly why feminists have lost ground
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: This article is exactly why feminists have lost ground
Posted by: pomes
» RE: This article is exactly why feminists have lost ground
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: HURRAY for this article -- I TOTALLY agree
Posted by: aprendi
» RE: HURRAY for this article -- but I disagree with Jan's post
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: HURRAY for this article -- but I disagree with Jan's post
Posted by: Holla
» Oh, this is insane
Posted by: westomoon
» RE: Oh, this is insane
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WyrdSister on Jul 11, 2008 8:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And then there are the men who chime in with the most misogynistic statements I have ever heard. Thanks guys! Your so F*ckin' helpful. I guess articles about Feminism just sucks them out of the woodwork.
If you are a woman of color and are having issues because of your color, then join an anti-racism group; WHY would you feel the need tp put down, demean, or otherwise compromise what Feminists do. I really do not understand why women of any color would attack other women. NONE of us believe that feminism = only for white women. That's f*ckin' crock!
I am a feminist, and I stand up for WOMEN regardless of her color. I just cannot believe that there is THIS much separation. No wonder we cannot get 'women's issues' advanced if there is this much in-fighting.
Look, there are many issues that need to be addressed under the umbrella of "Women's Issues", but if we keep separating ourselves based on race then no one wins except the misogynists. If you think you have issues that are uniquely "women of color' issues, please inform me as to what they are and why do you feel the need to separate them out from all women's issues.
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» RE: Then why the need to silence women of color's voices?
Posted by: Kym525
» We're not telling you to shut up
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: We're not telling you to shut up
Posted by: desidid
» RE: We're not telling you to shut up
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: We're not telling you to shut up
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Women are Women regardless of color
Posted by: tngreen
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Opal on Jul 11, 2008 8:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sisters, wake up! And I mean women of every race and class. Our gender solidarity could really help our children and grandchildren in the coming turbulent days.
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» RE: opal
Posted by: WyrdSister
» With all due respect
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: desidid
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: Crazy H
» Like Opal I am not blonde, perky, young or rich
Posted by: stellabloo
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: Opal
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: With all due respect
Posted by: emmas
» RE: Someone Who Get It
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Someone Who Get It
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fanny666 on Jul 11, 2008 9:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A recent AlterNet article about shaving pubic hair got 99 comments. A recent article about rape as a war crime got 5.
Here are some google results to point out what the movement has been focusing on:
Feminism "Sex and the City" gets 448,000 websites.
Feminism Rape Sudan gets 290,000
Feminism Rape Burma OR Myanmar gets 117,000
One of the reasons that white feminists are considered irrelevant by many- and why many dark-skinned women don't want to be associated with the term "feminist" and prefer the term "womanist" is for those same reasons: white feminists' obsession with self and with pop culture and pleasure and aesthetics while all over the world females face much, MUCH more severe oppression.
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» RE: What ARE the priorities of feminism?
Posted by: lindawageck1
» lindawageck1
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: What ARE the priorities of feminism?
Posted by: desidid
» You're not understanding my point.
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: You're not understanding my point.
Posted by: desidid
» I should have mentioned...
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: I should have mentioned...
Posted by: desidid
» Op/Ed articles invite discussion, News may not.
Posted by: mcubed
» RE: Op/Ed articles invite discussion, News may not.
Posted by: fanny666
» Happy Saturday
Posted by: mcubed
» RE: Op/Ed articles invite discussion, News may not.
Posted by: MamaPantz
» RE: What ARE the priorities of google?
Posted by: Angela History
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kym525 on Jul 11, 2008 10:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You uppity black, latina and asian women, it's all YOUR fault that Hilary wasn't the Democratic nominee because you didn't tow the privileged white mainstream feminist party line and vote for THE woman. You DARED to assert that RACISM was just as important as SEXISM.
There were many feminists of color who did vote for Hilary in the primaries (I wasn't one of them), but having spoken with many, they were ambivalent because they felt--and Gloria Steinem's hatchet op-ed piece didn't help matters--that they were being told that their lives dealing with both racism AND sexism didn't matter.
Sorry ladies, but as a lifelong feminist of color, separating race and gender is a false choice that I will not make, and I will not be made to feel guilty because I am demanding my place at the feminist table. Both are hurdles that many of us face and succeed against everyday. They are also hurdles that are slowly destroying urban communities and creating a class of young women with no way out and no hope. It is the height of arrogance (and proves the point of privilege) that white feminists want to be the final arbiters of what is a feminist issue and what is not.
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» RE: Feminists of color are seen as leaders
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Feminists of color are seen as leaders
Posted by: Holla
» RE: Kym525 Why Do You Keep Acting As If White Women Have Let Go Of Their Racial
Posted by: desidid
» This is the divisiveness we're talking about
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: This is the divisiveness we're talking about
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dudelette on Jul 11, 2008 10:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, the Catholic Church would never give up its control over the sex lives and reproduction of its members, because that would reduce the number of children born into the church, and it would increase the likelihood that people would leave the church as they became better educated and had a better quality of life as that would make them less dependent on the church, so it was immediately rejected by the Pope.
The point is always that if a woman has rights, no matter her race, religion or where she lives, life in general improves for everyone.
In the 19th century women's movement, the women joined with the abolitionist movement and other movements, including labor movements. What happened? The 14th amendment, labor unions, the final freeing of the slaves. What happened to the women's rights? Not a d**n thing. Black men might no longer be slaves, but their wives were still considered chattel to their husbands.
Every day I see prejudice against women on the job, simply and only because they are women. White, black, Asian, it doesn't matter. They're denied promotions and raises. They're left out of meetings "accidentally." They're given the worst assignments, and if they have any problems, it's "because she's a woman," not because the assignment deadline was impossible to meet, or the information required was not given, or the subordinates who were delegated tasks simply don't take orders from a woman seriously.
What's the old saying? "Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good . . . ."
Here's an applicable study: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/90120.php
Shirley Chisholm said she suffered more prejudice as a woman than from being black.
While I believe in true, equal civil rights for everyone, I'm still going to put the rights of women first in my life, because until women truly have equal rights, no one will have equal rights.
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» The Author may be Right, but her message is all WRONG
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: The Author may be Right, but her message is all WRONG
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: The Author may be Right, but her message is all WRONG
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: isnt that what we have ALL been saying here?
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: isnt that what we have ALL been saying here?
Posted by: Holla
» RE: isnt that what we have ALL been saying here?
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: isnt that what we have ALL been saying here?
Posted by: Holla
» RE: The Author is Right, and She's Backed by Lots of Studies
Posted by: desidid
» RE: The Author is Right, and She's Backed by Lots of Studies
Posted by: Holla
» RE: The Author is Right, and She's Backed by Lots of Studies
Posted by: Opal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Blue Heron on Jul 11, 2008 10:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Speaking truth to power
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Speaking truth to power
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Speaking truth to power?Laura Bush killed her master
Posted by: bouyant
Comments are closed-
Posted by: azul on Jul 11, 2008 11:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: exceptions
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: exceptions
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EncinoM on Jul 11, 2008 12:17 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-or-
Voting for a presidential canidate, regardless of the gender.
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» Voting for the president most likely to preserve and expand your rights
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Voting for the president most likely to preserve and expand your rights
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jul 11, 2008 12:32 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women of color have been discriminated against since the day they were brought in chains to this new world. As a white woman - though you may believe those catcalls that you pass by put you into the same category of understanding women of color - still you can not.
See women of color everyday are reminded that their beauty isn't "the standard" beauty. Or because culturally we are diverse - we can not "blend into" the white culture. As white women believe that just to be allowed to take off the veil is liberating - there is a whole part of culture that is being missed.
Everywhere the white man went he brought not just his poisonous hatred of other with him,and it became ingrained into the men of the cultures that were conquered. Or worse yet treated the women of those cultures as receptacles for his own sadistic pursuits. As a result many cultures adopted not just ways of "protection" for their woman (e.g.- genital mutilation, the veil, etc.)to both "save" them and keep the men from feeling emasculated by their "conquerers".
White women have no understanding of these issues. During slavery they were held up as the ideal woman, and today they are paraded on magazines, and held up the standard by which we judge women from other cultures as the ideal.
This presidential cycle where white women were up in arms when Sen. Obama came out the nominee showed much to everyone that cared to stop, look, and listen as not only Sen. Clinton showed herself to be a poor sport, but a poor sport that would do or say anything and appeal to the baser instincts of W.V. voters when she gave her speech there. As for the women interviewed that stated heatedly and flatly that they would vote Republican rather than vote for Obama - I think that's akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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» Speak truth to power, spiritgirl!!!
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: No, women are not the same
Posted by: Hopscotch123
» Here we go again
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Here we go again
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: No, women are not the same
Posted by: Lauren
» If you think that's bad, check out the colored women differences in Asia.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: No, women are not the same
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: No, women are not the same
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Cathyc on Jul 11, 2008 1:29 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This woman is not suffering from a lack of "feminism". Rather, she's still afflicted with the self-hatred she obviously internalised (learnt) as a child, which is why (a) she is married to an abusive man and (b) is passing on those same 'values' to her own sons.
" -- even rich, famous white women in Hollywood are consistently degraded, humiliated and abused by the men in their lives."
Domestic abuse is not confined to any one 'class' and has nothing to do with so-called femiminism. But it has a LOT to do with self respect - whether male or female.
"Ask any white woman who has endured daily street harassment or the multitudes of white women who work in the sex industry; they can assure you that men of all classes, races and nationalities are united in the pleasure they take in seeing all types of women being sexually humiliated. If that fact alone doesn't unite white women and women of color, I don't know what will."
I'm a white ("middle-class") woman and I don't identify with women (of any color) who experience abuse and violence on a daily basis - although I am very much aware of the fact that such women (and men) exist. I suppose that's because I have a different set of values and beliefs than those who believe that such everyday abuse and violence is normal. Such abnormal behaviour only goes on in a war situation.
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» RE: The personal is not always political
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: The personal is not always political
Posted by: Hopscotch123
» Avoiding Abuse with "Values" ?
Posted by: mcubed
» Please Tell Us Where You Live
Posted by: bcgirl125
» RE: Please Tell Us Where You Live
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: It Isn't My Reality Either
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pomes on Jul 11, 2008 2:50 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Indeed
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Feminism itself is 'divide and conquer'
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: susnow on Jul 11, 2008 3:37 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) They have ignored working-class women. Hard-won labor rights have been chipped away during the past thirty years and they haven't even batted an eyelash.
2) They have massively betrayed Arab and Muslim women by not protesting the Iraq War and by not supporting Palestinian women (I'm refering to NOW in particular).
2) They have ignored anti-globalization issues (see number 1).
3) And most egregiously, they have changed from an *empowerment* perspective into a *rescue* perspective. Example: second-wave feminism used to take the position that prostitution should be decriminalized, and they took this position for the same reason they took for abortion. Her body, her choice. If she wants to charge for sex, she should be able to do so. Now its, "We have to rescue them! We have to rescue those poor women! Whether they want to be rescued or not!"
No, what feminism is supposed to be about is empowerment. Not just for a few upper-class yuppie women, but for ALL women. Working-class women, Third-World women, and even those make their living in such a way that offends yuppie women's sensibilities. Empowerment.
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» RE: Second-Wave Feminism is Dead (especially the National Organization for Women)
Posted by: DCBeltway
» RE: Second-Wave Feminism is Dead (especially the National Organization for Women)
Posted by: Holla
» RE: Second-Wave Feminism is Dead (especially the National Organization for Women)
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Second-Wave Feminism is Dead (especially the National Organization for Women)
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Second-Wave Feminism is Dead (especially the National Organization for Women)
Posted by: cherylsass123
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mumblefaery on Jul 11, 2008 3:39 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For the record, I'm white - I was also raised in poverty and have spent much of my adult life crawling out of that lifestyle, so please don't group me into your "white women of privilege" pigeonhole. I've lived in varying circumstances from the rural south to the street to the inner city in my short time on this earth. That doesn't put me in any better or less of a position to have an opinion, but I find the idea that I've somehow lived a privileged life to be laughable. I guarantee you I've worked very hard to be where I'm at today, and I still struggle.
I think the main point I'd like to address from this article is that it's not discounting racism. I think you would be hard-pressed to find anyone on here that thinks that racism isn't a HUGE issue all over the world and certainly is much worse in other countries. Does that discount the feminist movement? Does it take away from the fact that women are raped, abused, mistreated in the workforce through male aggression and intimidation? I don't think so. I also whole-heatedly agree that women who are mistreated by our government of any race is definitely a woman's issue.
What I don't understand is how women who believe that feminism should stay true to it's original cause should be treated like racists. It's not that racism should take a back seat to feminism - it's that in the arena where feminism is involved, all women need to unite to see this through and unite for woman's rights. In the arena where racism is involved, everyone needs to be involved regardless of race, creed, or gender. I don't think there is any point in this article where women of color are told that they should stop fighting racism, nor should they pretend that they are either black or a woman.
Personally, I take it upon myself to try to address several causes - feminism, animal rights, race equality - but I differentiate between the causes. I stand up proudly with all of my sisters when I say "We've had enough!" Just like I stand with every human being that says "We've had enough!" But we all have to pick our battles, and I don't look down on people that choose differently than I do.
Another thing I don't understand and have found myself arguing with several feminists about is why the Hilary vs Barack debate became a feminism vs racism debate. I'm a feminist, but I voted for Obama because I feel that he is the best person for the job - The best PERSON. Isn't that what feminism is, equality of gender? I do like Hilary, and I think she has a better suited purpose ahead of her, but my hope for this country lies with Barack.
If a woman votes for McCain because she wants to "get back at" Obama, than she sounds ignorant is isn't really the definition of what I would consider a feminist.
Sorry I skipped around on this a bit, but my point is, women need to stand together for women's rights, and everyone needs to stand together for human rights. In the arena of feminism, I stick to the root and I go from there. I've never found my skin color to do me any favors - it certainly never prevented me from being raped against my will, beaten against my will, raised by a single mother who could barely keep our heads above water, living on the street, nor robbed at gun point.
OH, and to the woman on this forum who thinks that women with low self-esteem choose to be in abusive situations, I would love to live in your world where everything is so black and white. I certainly didn't know I was going to be in a abusive situation when I met the guy. I definitely left him when I could, but it certainly wasn't my low self-esteem that kept me in that situation - it was fear. And regardless of what you think you know about women in those situations, it involves the mistreatment of women and is most definitely a woman's issue.
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» Privilege is NOT about money
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Privilege is NOT about money
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: your right,
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: Holla
» RE: your right,
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: mumblefaery
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: john4244
» RE: your right,
Posted by: mumblefaery
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: your right,
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: Privilege is NOT about money
Posted by: mumblefaery
» RE: Privilege is NOT about money
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: The Problem Is Who Is Determining What The Issues Are and In What Order of Importance.
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: ayala on Jul 11, 2008 4:30 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: oh for gods sake, black slavery is over
Posted by: Holla
» RE: oh for gods sake, black slavery is over
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: oh for gods sake, black slavery is over
Posted by: Holla
» RE: oh for gods sake, black slavery is over
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: Kym525 on Jul 11, 2008 5:11 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The lingering social inequalities that plague us in the 21st century are invariably interlinked to a patriarchal power structure that enjoys seeing progressive movements fail. Racism did not grow out of a vacuum nor did sexism. Both has been justified by religion and culture. So why is it so difficult to embrace both without diminishing either?
I am grateful not only to my strong mother and grandmother and other pre-feminist women who were before there was a name or a movement, but I am grateful to the feminist movement as a whole. Which is why it hurts my heart to see white feminists completely blow off women of color. This is the kind of tactic used by the patriarchy to silence women, regardless of color or class--it's rather ironic that white women are using the exact same tactic.
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» They aren't blowing off women of color
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: but that's just it...
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: They aren't blowing off women of color
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: They aren't blowing off women of color
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: They aren't blowing off women of color
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: WHO decides what a feminist cause should be?
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: WHO decides what a feminist cause should be?
Posted by: daniel347x
» Superb comment, Kym
Posted by: westomoon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: daniel347x on Jul 11, 2008 9:59 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-Pitting oppression against oppression
-on the verge of claiming that white woman can't be racist or classist
-speaking out against the interconnection of oppressions and singling out one oppression (oppression of women) as more fundamental thsn other serious forms of oppression
-while lauding the second wave feminists as the most insightful, ignoring the second wave teachings on the interconnectedness of oppression, the anti-capitalist, 'sisters remaking the system' essential teaching of the most real second wave feminists
------------------------------------
I could go on, but I'll leave it at that for now.
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» *** ABOVE COMMENT IS NOT MY POSTING ***
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: *** ABOVE COMMENT IS NOT MY POSTING ***
Posted by: desidid
» RE: this is a despicable article
Posted by: dave246
» good stuff
Posted by: sleepingdog
» RE: this is a despicable article, that you obviously didn't read
Posted by: ayala
» RE: you don't get it
Posted by: ayala
» RE: you don't get it
Posted by: mumblefaery
» RE: you don't get it
Posted by: Holla
Comments are closed-
Comments are closed-
Posted by: realmuzik on Jul 13, 2008 1:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is at least one resource with a mission to: Check it out.
Enough with the bickering and drama-trolling. If you don't like what you see, step away from your computer screen and get active. I do, and I live in a rural neighborhood full of Ron Paul worshippers , "Born Again" pro-birthers, Bible home-schoolers, and homophobes.
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Posted by: tngreen on Jul 13, 2008 12:04 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In addition to fighting culture-centricity, we must overcome biology. The feminine impulse to cooperate rather than compete must surely be selected "for," evolutionarily speaking. While cooperation is a good thing in most situations, the desire to get along can result in our neglecting our own interests to the benefit of others. Demanding to be treated well does not come naturally to many women and in fact we sometimes do not even recognize ill treatment.
Thus I believe that the key to change must begin with women. We must cultivate within ourselves an awareness of discrimination and oppression as well as strategies for confronting it. Only then can we negotiate an equal share in power with men.
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Posted by: westomoon on Jul 13, 2008 3:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the "feminists" who claimed that Clinton's gender alone made it sexism not to vote for her (a stance we would have instantly identified as sexist back in the 70's) were an odd mix of women who have made a profit out of being feminist, and women who were the right age for it but missed the "second wave" back in the day. What I saw from them was so different from what I know as feminism, I have to characterize it as neo-feminism. It is as warped a reflection of feminism as the Radical Right is of conservatism. This neofeminism is certainly no third wave, but instead a strange, hysterical, whiny, and above all divisive thing that chooses gender victimization alone as its focus.
Some of the comments above brought back such wonderful memories -- in the 70's, second-wavers were serious enough about women's oppression that they took on the additional issues that oppressed women of color and of non-mainstream sexual orientation or abilities. If it was my sister's cross to bear, it was mine too. Feminist events were among the first to routinely include sign interpreters, wheelchair accessibility, union-label requirements, and boycotting of localities where mistreatment of people of color was extreme and public. I refuse to let these neofeminists' tantrums usurp the proud herstory of 70's feminism.
And that brings me to my final point, one which has been made several times above deep in the threads, but one which deserves to be trumpeted over and over. The "post-primary division" this author bemoans is the direct result of the extraordinary racism expressed and encouraged by the Clinton campaign. To an old "70's feminist" like me, that was, and remains, shocking and unforgivable.
I know Mrs. Clinton's neofeminist followers believe that the Obama camp was responsible for their unbelievable remarks being identified as racism. (I don't think I will ever forget Gerri Ferraro telling the press that not only was she not going to apologize for her statement that Obama was a candidate only because of his race, but saying that she felt he owed her an apology.) So long as these soi-disant "feminists" continue to believe they can't be wrong because they're women, you can count on this old white feminist being on the far side of the "racial divide" this author so distortedly perceives.
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» RE: She doesn't speak for this "70's feminist"
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: She doesn't speak for this "70's feminist"
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal on Jul 13, 2008 7:51 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Gloria Steinem was a CIA Operative
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: Kym525 on Jul 14, 2008 9:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, it is the privileged white feminists (and you know who you are), who keep trying to decide for women of color what fights we as feminists should be engaged in. They blame the fight against racism for not getting the ERA passed--when the truth is it was privileged white women like Phyllis Schafly, who frightened midwest and southern white women with the notion that the ERA would mean they would have to share public restrooms with men. These women say to us "we understand racism--somewhat--but being a woman must come first". This is a false choice and it is one that obviously stems from a group of women too close to the very patriarchy they oppose.
I'm sorry that as a woman of color that I don't rank Sex in the City as some "feminist groundbreaking" film right up there with young black girls losing ground in education and being bombarded with negative images.
I will say it again: We women of color DO NOT have the luxury of separation. Every single day of our lives we are mis-treated due to both gender AND race. Just this weekend I was followed around a store by a rent-a-cop who saw my COLOR ONLY. This wasn't gender-based. He saw BLACK and he thought CRIMINAL. I went to his supervisor and let them both know I refuse to patronize an establishment where such profiling occurs.
Women of color suffer disproportionately from health problems, violence and access to child care and educational opportunities. This is not just due to gender but also historic RACIAL DISCRIMINATION.
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Jul 14, 2008 3:15 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That quote from this essay goes right along with sagacious pronouncements like "All men are rapists and that's all they are," (Marilyn French).
"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men..." (Elizabeth Cady Stanton, "One Woman, One Vote", Wheeler, p.58.)
Gee, LIzzie, that must be why you're complaining about being raped, beaten, and paid less than men.
"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." .... "You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs." (Catherine MacKinnon - Prominent feminist scholar at the University of Michigan and Yale)
Golly, Catherine, do you mean to tell me this happens to EVERY woman?
"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it." (Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan)
Then why is it that every year, literally thousands of men risk their lives in order to go to the rescue of other people - many of these rescues not on television the next day"
"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig"....."Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman." ...."for a woman, the home is the most dangerous place in the world!" .... "The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an eternity of being used." .... "Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." (Andrea Dworkin).
Has Andrea been tranquilized and locked up yet? I hope so, poor thing.
"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release." (Germaine Greer)
All the heroes of history, combat, exploration (including space), and the like werent' "secure?" Surely, you jest (or have a problem with your memory and knowledge of history.
"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." (Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students).
Sure, we learn what a nation ruled by women would be like.
There's another quote, by a man (Ralph Waldo Emerson): "What you are thunders so loudly, I can't hear what you say to the contrary." More, females will remain where they are in the struggle for rights and equality under the law so long as they continue to shoot themselves in the foot with utter tripe like this. You can scream at the top of your lungs, all of you, that a pig can fly; but it won't make anyone believe a pig can fly; and it won't make a pig that can fly.
When women can stop talking nonsense and trying to force it upon society by political means, they will find that all the men they have vilified so irrationally and unfairly are the one ally they have always needed. It's like trying to survive in the jungle, girls: you need a man (the reason Mother Nature made things the way she did).
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» RE: not true! women do NOT need a man to stand by them and protect them.
Posted by: cherylsass123
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Posted by: DRNO on Jul 14, 2008 10:00 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THAT is one of the reasons why women of color do not tend to respond to 70's feminism. It is also part of the reason they insist on dealing with issues of race and class. They have studied feminist history and know that they are often forgotten. The reality for women of color is that their lives intersect on lines of race and class as well. Feminism is not their only struggle. It will never be as long as racism and class issues persist.
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» RE: unrefined thinking
Posted by: Holla
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Posted by: rickiey on Jul 14, 2008 10:35 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey stupid, you already have it and more.
In the most important aspects of life, women have more rights than men, and yet you are whining.
If it weren't so sad for all of the male victims out there, it would be funny.
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» RE: olling my eyes.
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: desidid on Jul 16, 2008 5:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: WyrdSister on Jul 17, 2008 8:07 AM
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attack on contraception
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Posted by: WyrdSister on Jul 17, 2008 8:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
attack on contraception
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» RE: hey...where are you guys!?
Posted by: WyrdSister
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Posted by: no1kstate on Jul 17, 2008 9:48 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know that for some women of color, racism as an issue takes precedence over sexism. But that's not for all women of color. Most "intersectionalists" I've come across try their hardest to advocate for the end of all forms of oppression.
It's only from white feminists that I've heard a call to focus solely on the issues of white, middle class women. So, I understand your point. But intersectionalists aren't the problem.
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