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Reproductive Justice and Gender

The 'Surgical Re-Virgin': Setting the Odometer Back to Zero

By Ellen Goodman, Washington Post Writers Group. Posted June 20, 2008.


Retrofitting women to make them sexually attractive and "marriageable" is more than a Hollywood fad. It's life or death for many.
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BOSTON -- I remember when a subgroup of the abstinence-only movement first came up with an escape clause called secondary virginity. The idea was that just because you had sex once didn't mean you had to do it again. This prompted a cynical question from a young lawyer in my family: "Does that mean you can renew your virginity again and again? Or is it three strikes and you're out?"

Well, now we are having a secondary argument over secondary virginity. This time the subject isn't spiritual revival but surgical re-virgin. The furor comes from Europe where there's a trend among women -- mostly immigrants and mostly Muslims -- to have their hymens restored for the marriage market.

This began with a recent case that has France in an uproar even by French standards. A Muslim groom who discovered on his wedding night that his wife was not what she claimed to be -- a virgin -- sued for and won an annulment. He claimed a breach of contract on the grounds that virginity was an "essential quality" of the woman he chose to marry.

This ruling outraged a country that bans headscarves in schools and has immigrants sign a pledge that describes France as a secular country where men and women are equal. It was described by a cabinet minister as a "fatwa against emancipated women" and identified by others as something that would pressure more women into hymenoplasty.

Now, why precisely one woman found guilty of fraud would drive other women into deeper fraud I'm not sure. But gynecologists in Paris report women coming to them for certificates of virginity, and medical tourist packages take women to places such as Tunisia where the surgery is cheaper. There is even a new Italian movie about an immigrant returning to Casablanca to "have her odometer brought back to zero."

All this is happening despite the fact -- Biology 101 -- that the presence or absence of a hymen may be unrelated to sexual experience. Indeed, one surgeon gives patients a vial of blood to pour on the sheets just in case.

This has led to a controversy not just over sex and equality but the ethics of surgery that's designed to retrofit a woman to a rigid culture. On one side, the French gynecological organization condemned the practice as a "submission to the intolerance of the past." On the other side, a doctor who performs the surgery said, "My patients don't have a choice if they want to find serenity -- and husbands." And some of the patients describe it flat-out as a matter of life and death, acknowledging that they are in real danger from their families if their 'dishonor' is discovered.

Now, before we dismiss this whole restoration project as Europe vs. fundamentalism, remember that American doctors are also offering to repair hymens in website ads promising privacy and like-a-virgin results -- thank you, Madonna.

Bioethicist Alta Charo squirms over the idea of hymen repair but then says we ought to "put it in the larger context of how far women will go to make themselves marriageable and sexually attractive." Just what will secular, modern women do to fit their own cultural stereotypes -- breast implant, anyone? What will they do to stay employable -- face-lift, anyone?

But there's something in the tale of fear, fraud and France that resonates with the darker side of the abstinence-only education movement here.

Government-promoted virginity lessons are not simply an attempt to protect our daughters -- and, oh yeah, sure, sons -- from a culture that sells sex like Pop-Tarts. Nor are they just about helping them delay and think twice about hooking up. They too are based on fear and control.

And consider the father-daughter Purity Balls dotting the country. At these deeply creepy events, fathers promise "to cover my daughter as her authority and protection in the area of purity." How far is that protection from the protection racket where fathers oversee their female property until it's passed on -- intact or else -- to a husband?

All in all, the flip side of purity lectures is the conviction that sex -- and the girls who have it -- is dirty. On either side of the Atlantic, doctors in the "like a virgin" business are not only accomplices of private deceptions, they are accomplices to those who keep the reins of sexuality out of women's own hands.

Where, I wonder, is the Internet ad for repairing a whole culture?

(c) 2008, Washington Post Writers Group

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See more stories tagged with: sex, gender, sexuality, secondary virginity, surgical virginity, hymen reconstruction, gender restrictions, hymenoplasty

Ellen Goodman is a member of the Washington Post Writers Group.

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how interesting, but moving on...
Posted by: Richard House on Jun 20, 2008 2:11 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder if AlterNet will get around to a really big news story; habeas corpus was barely saved in a Supreme Court vote recently.

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» Another self-appointed ventriliquist Posted by: Richard House
» blah, blah, blah.... Posted by: Richard House
» RE: how interesting, but moving on... Posted by: Richard House
» The 4th Century? Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: The 4th Century? Posted by: the baron
» RE: The 4th Century? Posted by: radiomorning
» RE: The 4th Century? Posted by: KiwiBR
» RE: The 4th Century? Posted by: Richard House
» RE: how interesting, but moving on... Posted by: Richard House
» I'm with you Richard Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» Alternet is NOT a progressive news site Posted by: Seattle Truther
Even now in Europe and Asia
Posted by: richholland on Jun 20, 2008 2:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there are people believing that the hymen means something.
40 years ago I was in the vivid city of amsterdam, having a good time. Many girls did several sexual things but only would have intercourse if you intended to marry.

Although we smoked weed ,lived in a circle of artistst and actors if you slept with a virgin you had the risk of be beaten up by brothers and fathers .

And if the girl got pregnant you had to marry or to pay.
So the attitude about "honor"by some islamists is not unknown to us.

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Virginity or trust?
Posted by: Swatopluk on Jun 20, 2008 3:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The way the French case was described in German papers it was less about the bride not being a virgin but about her claiming to be one before the wedding. The groom was quoted as that being more about the breach of trust than breach of hymen.
This does of course not change the overall problem described here. I hear this "flower service" is booming in Iran too.

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That's it!
Posted by: CosmoViking on Jun 20, 2008 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm so sick of this planet and the sociopaths that govern it...

Religious zealots
Fascists
Moles
Oppressors
Tyrants

Let's colonoze Mars and leave the these people to destroying the planet with pollution and scalar weaponry.

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» RE: That's it! Posted by: ankhet
» RE: That's it! Posted by: writer7
» RE: That's it! Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: That's it! Posted by: crashgrab
» Praying for the Rapture!!!!!!! Posted by: lasirene
» RE: Praying for the Rapture!!!!!!! Posted by: radiomorning
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAA Posted by: Plexius2
Turning a Old Sows ear into a new box!
Posted by: williameon on Jun 20, 2008 4:27 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have only one question?

How long is that going to last?

One night?
Vanity please

If you want to be a virgin?
Stop screwing every
Tom, Dick and (Hairy) Harry!

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» RE: Or "Just Say No"? Posted by: jimidee
» Amen, brother jimidee..... Posted by: morticia
» RE: Wiping with a pebble? Posted by: Plexius2
» RE: Wiping with a pebble? Posted by: morticia
» RE: clearly...... Posted by: morticia
» RE: please call 911 Posted by: morticia
» RE: Or "Just Say No"? Posted by: john mont
» Not quite that simple... Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Not quite that simple... Posted by: WyrdSister
Reminds me
Posted by: colinmeister on Jun 20, 2008 4:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of a sign a College ex-girlfriend of mine had in her room in the early '70s: "Boys want to marry virgins, men want to marry women".

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» RE: reminds me Posted by: bitsfick
just what are they implanting exactly?
Posted by: cyr3n on Jun 20, 2008 4:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The previous poster mentions a "sows ear" but seriously, what are they grafting onto women who opt for this?

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ouch. vaginal prolapse...
Posted by: cyr3n on Jun 20, 2008 4:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yikes. Something those blushing brides can look forward to:
Artificial vagina results in prolapse 40 years later

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» RE: ouch. vaginal prolapse... Posted by: morticia
» RE: ouch. vaginal prolapse... Posted by: Plexius2
gypsyray
Posted by: gypsyray on Jun 20, 2008 5:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You have missed the most important point. They ran out of virgins for suicide bombers in heaven long ago. Now all that can be corrected.

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» RE: dkm you're pitiful Posted by: morticia
Getting old
Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jun 20, 2008 5:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No doubt about it, its a bummer getting old. Seems guys get older but still want young chicks. Just a fact of life I guess.

JT
Ultimate Anonymity

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» RE: Big Difference... Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Getting old Posted by: Vik
It's all about ownership
Posted by: Lilykins on Jun 20, 2008 6:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with the author, it's all about men owning women. Sex has long been used to control and terrorize women. Women are humiliated, called names if they don't have sex with only one man with whom they've gotten a legal government contract that says it's "OK". Some men rape women which is a terrorist act because ALL women are affected by the knowledge that they could be next, any time any place, even in their own homes, even by thier own husbands. In some places the men use it as an excuse to murder women they assum not to be virgins.
Women who enjoy sex are seen as dirty (unless they are having sex with that government contract that makes it culturally acceptable).
In the nature of thing, this accepted way of thinking is incredibly distructive to living heathy lives. It's like part of the Dark Ages has still got it's claws in us and our society/culture will be unable to evolve until we dump this idea that women are property, and that sex (for women) is dirty and lowers her worth.
Think about how much we see in the media about how women LOOK. It's all about their sex appeal. Women (and girls) are given a strong message that their worth is tied into looking sexy, while at the same time actually BEING sexual is a dirty, filthy thing.

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» RE: conflation Posted by: Lilykins
» RE: LMAO Posted by: morticia
blindbert
Posted by: blind848 on Jun 20, 2008 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
hey y'all, how about just not reading the story?..noone makes you take your time to read what is not interesting to you..why not just move on to the next, more interesting item, for you??

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» RE: blindbert Posted by: VZEQICVA
TIME ON THEIR HANDS WITH MONEY TO SPEND
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jun 20, 2008 7:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This 'news' appeared in the NY times last week and one woman was quoted as saying "my virginity is more important than life". I thought she should buy a newspapaper and take a look at what passes for life in some parts of the world. $2900 is alot of money. And the purpose is to mislead some guy into marrying them. A lady has to protet her honor I guess, or lie about it. I'll take good old made in the USA "Sex and the City", thank you very much. ANNA

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Ever heard of 'Designer laser vaginoplasty' Ms Goodman?
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus on Jun 20, 2008 7:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before we jump on the muslim-bashing bandwagon, lets talk about "Designer laser vaginoplasty" and "laser vaginal rejuvenation" are growth areas in plastic surgery, representing the latest chapter in the surgical victimisation of women in our culture.

The procedures offered include vaginal tightening and vulval remodelling to make the vulva appear more childlike. In the words of one of the many clinics offering these services on the internet: "Many people have asked us for an example of the aesthetically pleasing vulva. We went to our patients for the answer and they said the playmates of Playboy." In other words, women are being mutilated to fit male masturbation fantasies, in what Faith Wilding calls "the full-scale consumer spectacle of the cyborg porn babe." This burgeoning industry is able to operate without the slightest attention being paid to it by medical researchers.

Ms Goodman, when you get a chance, please visit this clinic in LA offering 'Designer Vaginas' for the satisfaction of American men.

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» Not quite the same thing... Posted by: morticia
On one hand this could ultimately undermine the "hymen test"
Posted by: Helenkeller on Jun 20, 2008 8:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It happened to the sneetches....

Some Sneetches have a star on their bellies, and in the beginning of the story the presence or absence of a star is the basis for discrimination. Sneetches who have stars on their bellies are part of the "in crowd", while Sneetches without stars are shunned and consequently mopey.

In the story, a "fix-it-up chappie" named Sylvester McMonkey McBean appears, driving a cart of strange machines. He offers the Sneetches without stars a chance to have them by going through his Star-On machine, for three dollars. The treatment is instantly popular, but this upsets the old star-bellied Sneetches, as they are in danger of losing their method for discriminating between classes of Sneetches. Then McBean tells them about his Star-Off machine, costing ten dollars. The Sneetches formerly with stars happily pay the money to have them removed in order to remain special.

McBean allows the recently starred Sneetches through this machine as well. Ultimately this escalates, with the Sneetches running from one machine to the next,

"until neither the Plain nor the Star-Bellies knew
whether this one was that one or that one was this one
or which one was what one... or what one was who."

This continues until the Sneetches are penniless and McBean leaves a rich man.

Thank you Dr. Seuss and wikipedia.

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Look at the forces driving women to get the surgery, not the surgery itself
Posted by: ladyoracle on Jun 20, 2008 8:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My title says basically all I needed to say. I completely understand why certain women (not just Muslim either) feel like getting a hymen re-attached is a life-or-death decision. Your family could disown you, you could face the same public humiliation as the woman sued for divorce because she hadn't been a virgin. For people in those cultures, they'd see that as humiliation, not a wrongful accusation. Based on thier culture's values and logic, he's entitled, and it makes perfect sense.

So, you can look at the surgery and what it means, which is interesting, but then you'll get to actual solutions by looking at what makes a woman have that procedure in the first place. Outlawing that surgery would just put these women at risk from being socially ostracized from thier families--or perhaps even making them victims of violence when/if the truth comes out. In fact, I am glad that surgery is around as an option so that mulsim women can be sexual without fearing conflict with family and marriage. It's not that the conflict isn't a barbarism of patriarchal rule, but it's that when you're under that rule you just have to do the best you can in that situation.

Have you ever tried to entirely turn your back on your family to live your life as you see fit? Very few people can do that for long, nor should society expect them to do that.

And the only people who can change the Muslim cultures that feel this way about virginity peacefully are muslims themselves. What are they saying about this issue?

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» Sexual culture and Islam Posted by: aamer923
» RE: Sexual culture and Islam Posted by: amatullah
» RE: Sexual culture and Islam Posted by: john mont
» Mr. Civilization Posted by: aamer923
» Go To Ogrish dot com....... Posted by: gellero1
» Muslim Men??? Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Sexual culture and Islam Posted by: WickedGrace
» What do muslims say......... Posted by: gellero1
So you're telling me a fool and his money are soon parted...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jun 20, 2008 8:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...even if the fool is a her?

Three cheers for all the suckers that drive niche economies.

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Beauty?
Posted by: sirios on Jun 20, 2008 8:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow, how sick is this? The men on this planet are definitely "First time on two legs" creatures. A little off the point but , how about our elders passing on wisdom, unconditional love ,compassion etc. all with just a glance into the eyes of the younger set. the desire to maintain physical youth and "beauty" is a disease. When we buy into this sickness we have nothing but a burden to pass on to our children and grand children instead of the aforementioned.

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» RE: Beauty? Posted by: Lilykins
» RE: Beauty? Posted by: radiomorning
» RE: Beauty? Posted by: Lilykins
» RE: Beauty? Posted by: radiomorning
Juvenile junk culture rules
Posted by: babs on Jun 20, 2008 9:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what about a test to determine if males are virgins? Or putting experienced men down like a rabid dog. Oh wait, men would never stand for that.

And if women don't have sex, there won't be any men. How exactly do the "elders" of any of yer major spaghetti monster "faiths" square that one. Oh wait again, they just assign it to their personal god and all that hypocrisy is the means to an idiotic end.

Will the war between men and women ever end? Yes, when the cancer known as religious "faith" is wiped out. I vote for a new crusade - against xtianity, islam, judaism, and all the other juvenile and destructive isms on the planet.

They said that Stalin and Mao were wrong to outlaw religions. Sometimes, I think they were on to something.

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» Why would women care? Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Why would women care? Posted by: BlueTigress
Sexually transmitted diseases
Posted by: blogbooks on Jun 20, 2008 10:04 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know these diseases didn't just pop up over night?

In addition to the obvious lack of birth control in the past, another good reason for people to abstain from sex until marriage was avoidance of STDs.

I strongly disagree with the previous posters trumpeting the benefits of a "well used vagina." Most men feel the same way.

Give me a tight clean one over a loose STD infested one.

But, that's not the world we live in. We live in a world of people banging away from the time they're 14ish, spreading STDs to the majority of their peer group before they even graduate from high school.

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» RE: insecure much? Posted by: Cynic13
» RE: insecure much? Posted by: radiomorning
» You are an IDIOT Posted by: CV
Urban myths
Posted by: Ryan on Jun 20, 2008 10:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As far as I know, girls who have their virginity 'restored' do it to avoid humility or punishment from her family and direct surroundings. The urban myth of course is that the hymen is always intact if your a virgin. It is not: it can be broken by gymnastics, riding horses and other sports or hobbies.

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Scary folks won't defend their rights but it is ok to re-cherrify.
Posted by: Nightstallion on Jun 20, 2008 11:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I mean no disrespect toward women here, if I were going to marry one I would only consider three things.
1.) Does she want children.
2.) Is her sensibility able to accept sharing herself with me.
3.) Will I be judged inadequate if my little head does more thinking than my big one. (say no three times consecutively and I am gone)

I firmly believe doing the same thing time after time expecting a different result is insanity.

4.) Only stupid men place more weight on physicality than on personal light and intelligence.

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» Marital standards Posted by: BlueTigress
You have all the sex you want. Just leave Muslims alone
Posted by: aamer923 on Jun 20, 2008 2:21 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The woman lied in a legally binding marriage contract. The man did not like it. You would not either. Why do not we let Muslims be Muslims?
Look. You can have all the sex you want before and after marriage. with one partner, multiple, same sex, opposite sex, animals, robots, incest. You go ahead and have fun.
Just leave the Muslims alone. Do not preach to them or liberate them please, they had more than enough know-it-all arrogant pigs who wanted to liberate them.

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Okay, I see the importance of the larger conversation...
Posted by: ianfan on Jun 20, 2008 4:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...but the specific instance that sets this whole conversation off I really don't have a problem with. If you lied and the topic of the lie was a deal breaker for the marriage...well the guy deserves his annulment.

Let's not let how backward you think a religion is to begin with cloud the arguement. If you have chosen this path, walk it or choose another. We aren't talking about people captive in an oppresive country, we're talking about people in modern western democracies, right?

If you choose to follow this religion, well please take the bad with the good. If we're talking about muslims in western society, they have rights and can't just be honor killed. That is criminal and the law covers it already. They also have a choice and can escape their religion.

Hey, I'm single and would gladly marry a former muslim non-virgin if shes the right woman for me. If these people want to remain a part of this rigid tradition...why the complaining about how rigid the tradition is?

Maybe I'm missing something, but we are talking about people who have options, yes? Please let know what I'm missing here.

But I suppose the article does go generally the same way making the larger arguement (this parallels the way western christian culture is broken) the focus...so what am I complaingin about? :)

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» Stop making sense! Posted by: MartianBachelor
Is this the twenty first,or twelth century?
Posted by: BlueGorilla on Jun 20, 2008 4:43 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have we been transported to a world, where the enlightenment has never happened?Why do the words of Imans and preachers still carry any power at all?
Sexuality,sexual repression,madonna-whore dichotomies etc still play a huge part in conservative religiousity,which seems to thrive and grow.Often ,but by no means exclusively, amongst this is amongst the sexually confused ,scarred by their own anxieties,they seem to use control of women and (less so)themself as a way of dealing with their confusion.
Certainly the Islamic revival has had an anti-liberal impetus,and in some ways is a backlash to the threat of liberalism ,(and sexual liberation ).The bullies have now frightened,stoned and beheaded their perceived threats.Nowadays gay rights and womens rights don't make a for good election manifesto in the less enlightened parts of Iran.

What fundamentalists,have in common is a social conservatism,is based on control of sexuality,most often female sexuality.Its noticeable how many zealots are homophobic,and petrified of women.I would guess that sexual repression,has led to a distorted sexuality ie the whole 'blow yourself up,and you'll get to s--g loads of virgins' nonesense,used to make suicide bombing attractive to mostly young males.
Its also very revealing,that it doesn't seem to matter as much in the French case,as to whether the bloke was a virgin.
Female chastity and pureness is still a prized asset,and of course,there is still a worldwide social stigma which increases the more sexual partner's a woman has.
A much watered down ,and less murderous,version of this religious policing of women's sexuality,is prevalent in various degrees from secular Manchester UK to secular New York USA .
This states that virginity is a mans burden and a womans blessing (or stud/slag as it is sometimes expressed).This too is a hangover from patriarchal religion,and a desire to control women's sexuality.Feminism has chipped away at the extremes of this patriarchy,but what has been gained,can easily be lost.Though in fairness your average Mancunian/New Yorker is a bit saner and smarter than the average,superstititious fundamentalist.
As regards male chastity,in some branches of christianity, exultation of lifetime male chastity,is still a central feature of dogma..ie in Catholiscism.
Numberswise priestly celibacy seems to be on the wane in some countries (ie Eire),probably due to the fact that it is a)too difficult for many priests to stay celibate,in today's more secular society, and this leads to a lack of new recruits .Plus c)many didn't bother to stay celibate,and just pursued a distorted sexuality ie paedophilia.This seems to be more prevalent in such sexually repressed environments..and that is bad pr for any organization..even one like the Roman Catholic Church,which did it's utmost to cover up child abuse.
Preachers in the States,also seem to have a predeliction for what their own preachings,would call sin, ie Jim Bakker cheated on his wife,Swaggart let the devil tempt him to make the beast with two backs,behind his wife's back..and now this Haggerty guy tops the lot.

So there you go,don't listen to preachers,have a healthy sex life,and overthrow the patriarchal order and we'll all be a lot healthier..and safer particularly women and gay people.

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» Century XII Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Century XII Posted by: BlueGorilla
Hymn to the Her
Posted by: GPFrank on Jun 20, 2008 7:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While the benediction is spoken,
"To the Hymen, Amen",
Or else when the dam is broken, repair the breach.
If the finger is longer than the reach.
When there ever is anything new under the sun,
I trow, an experienced woman is more fun.

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Now For Men, the Uglier, Older, Fatter, Balder and Stupider They Are, the "Richer" they claim to be!
Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 20, 2008 7:43 PM   
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This female "tricking out," so as to claim virginity has some corollary in how men "trick out" women. Except for men, the uglier, fatter, balder, older and stupider they are, the more they pretend to have a big pocket book. Ever see a pretty woman with some old "used up" guy. What is he getting and what is she getting? For him, the looks, sex, and image. But, for her, the money, clothes and jewelry. Of course, for women, they better be sure to make sure the guy really has what he claims to have. For that, you can hire various services to check out his credit history and bank account balances. Now, that's something you cannot so simply repair like a hymen rupture!

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» Credit History??????? Posted by: gellero1
This is astounding, but nothing new
Posted by: CV on Jun 20, 2008 11:46 PM   
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Okay, where do we start with the pathetic "reasoning" that continues to make men (and women) abide by the most outrageous and pathetic belief systems? 20 years ago a Lebanese sex partner of mine kept seeking the back door - until I said "hmmm - is that how you do it in Lebanon?" Why did I say that? Because I READ and LISTENED and LEARNED 40 years before that Italian women would have anal sex to "preserve" their virginity. Dear whatever passes for god in any culture - will we NEVER evolve?

My Lebanese (Christian) sex partner acknowledged that yes, that had been the inception of his proclivity toward anal sex. What he was "used to". 20 years later, and I truly cannot recall the exact context, a Muslim male confessed to me that he had PAID for his lover in Iraq or Iran to have her hymen restored because she was to marry - to someone chosen for her. He "loved" her - but didn't want to marry her. So he paid to make it possible for her not to be disgraced or, at worst, killed.

NEITHER OF THESE MEN found anything "wrong" with the systems in which they lived. And apparently neither did the women.

When do we progress beyond this stupidity? Perhaps never. I am 64 years old, and women are still being mutilated all over the world one way or another - whether by having their hymens reconstituted or having their clitorises cut out or having breast implants or plastic surgery to meet some stupid fashion standard. Mothers cooperate and take their daughters to those who will slice them up or "train" them in the ways of the culture.

This is what women must do to survive in the 21st Century? We are primitives. Let us admit it, we are programmed and conditioned - and nothing about any of this is rational.

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Does anyone ever get a penile reduction?
Posted by: Plexius2 on Jun 21, 2008 7:52 AM   
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It is very unsatisfying to be overly long, because one must be careful about banging (no pun intended) against a woman's cervix too hard. Is it possible to reduce surgically the length of one's penis so that it neither hurts the woman, nor prevents feeling totally enclosed in a woman's loving loins?

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» A Good Fit Posted by: gellero1
» RE: A Good Fit Posted by: morticia
I'm in the wrong business
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Jun 21, 2008 1:00 PM   
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lol

jdfu!

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WHO CARES
Posted by: billgee on Jun 22, 2008 7:08 AM   
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Virgin or 'ho, whats the diff.

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This is NOT new!
Posted by: ujama on Jun 22, 2008 2:25 PM   
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I lived in Mexico City during the 1960's. This surgery was common there among those that could afford to have it. I am surprised that this is just now getting press after almost 50 years of my knowing about it. One wonders why now and not then?

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Ellen Goodman needs to explain...............
Posted by: gellero1 on Jun 22, 2008 8:06 PM   
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'Father-Daughter Purity Balls dotting the country' ?????????

Huh?? certainly didn't make the society pages of the New York Times.

Did she invent this ???????????

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Men really don't care about virginity.........
Posted by: gellero1 on Jun 22, 2008 8:35 PM   
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It's just a put on by some backward cultured males to satisfy their parents, or at least the make-believe their parents want others to believe.

And of course any male worth being called a man would have nailed his betrothed long before the nuptuals. But the guilt induced by this is what keeps psychiatrists in business. Neurosis is all about sex. And the religious prohibitions that induce it.

Strong, intelligent, educated minds have always risen above it.

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What we need to do, girls...
Posted by: Sushi on Jun 24, 2008 8:28 PM   
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What say we all gang up and make it mandatory that all men must have foreskins before we have sex with them...then they would all have to go out and have foreskin reconstruction to be considered "worthy" as humans. Make them totally obsessed with their appearance being directly tied to their value in society's marketplace.

Not really, but that's basically the message we women get. Never understood why men are intimidated by "experienced" women. Some of the best sex I have ever had was with men who were comfortable enough with their own bodies to actually *show* the guy what she wants===and he actually paid attention (instead of feigning to know everything, then spending years doing it all wrong while thinking he's a stud.)

Virgins are for men who fear being judged.

Sushi
"I lost my virginity, but I still have the box it came in."

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Hymenolatry needs to be stopped completely.
Posted by: Morgaine Swann on Jun 25, 2008 9:36 PM   
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"Hymenolatry" is what thealogian Mary Daly called patriarchy's sick obsession with the possession of an intact hymen. First, most women aren't born with them. They are probably an evolutionary aberration. The fact that as many women have them at birth as they do may literally be the result of 6,000 years of killing brides who didn't have one. For the women who are born with one, many non-sexual activities destroy them before puberty. Anything from riding a horse to using a tampon can eliminate it.

The problem here is not women's behavior - it's the Abrahamic religions' desperation to assure paternity. Even if one's value system has a man interested in making sure his kids are really his kids, an intact hymen is no guarantee of that, and we have medical tests that weren't available to desert nomads 6,000 years ago that can painlessly prove "who's the daddy."

The Abrahamic texts are full of contradictions, misinterpretations, and tribal legend collected from bits and pieces of ancient writings. Some of it might be history, some of it might be prophecy, but a lot of it is cultural taboos and prejudices that have no relevance in today's world.

This type of surgery is barely better than the horror of genital mutilation. These practice are not justified by any religious text, and the practice of them is the over-arching civil rights issue on the planet.

We have got to drag the world into the 21st Century. We can't let politics, religion, tradition or "cultural sensitivity" prevent us from stopping these atrocities. I honestly believe that the developed countries have an obligation to provide asylum for women and girls in danger of being victimized in this way. There is no secular basis for the continued torture and subjugation of an entire gender, and secular governments like France and the US have an obligation to do everything they can to stop this at least within their own borders.

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