COMMENTS: 80
"Torture Porn" Makers Shrug Off Label
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But to others, the film's shocking violence and grisly torture scenes marked the beginning of a descent into a subgenre that New York magazine film critic David Edelstein dubbed "torture porn."
Women have long borne the brunt of on-screen terrorizing says Jill Soloway, a consulting producer of ABC's TV show "Dirty Sexy Money." But she says the difference is the element of torture in movies that followed "Hostel," such as "Captivity," which prompted a storm of criticism for its graphic ads.
"There's all this blood spurting and it's like waiting for the money shot in a porn movie," says Soloway.
Eli Roth, who directed "Hostel" and its sequel, "Hostel Part II," and other directors say the term torture porn misrepresents their work, which depicts exaggerated violence as a way of expressing horror with real violence and war.
"Torture porn is an absurd term," Roth said in a phone interview. "People are forgetting that it's not real violence."
In Roth's first "Hostel" film, three U.S. frat boys visiting European red-light districts are lured to Slovakia, where they've been promised a village full of beautiful, sex-starved natives and are subjected to decapitation, chest-drilling and cannibalism.
The film's female characters receive similar treatment, but often while they are naked or dressed in lingerie. The leading woman in the sequel, "Hostel Part II," is nearly raped but ultimately outsmarts her attacker by pretending he arouses her, catching him off guard and castrating him. "The film is about control in sexual power," Roth said.
Lindsey Horvath, who works in film advertising and is president of the National Organization for Women's Hollywood chapter, doesn't see it that way. "We think the term is devastatingly accurate," she said about calling the films torture porn. Both she and Soloway emphasize that they do not want to censor the films but have organized against graphic, torture-porn advertisements, since they are in public view, where onlookers don't make an active choice about seeing the images.
Controversial Billboard Ads
Last March, Soloway, Horvath and others campaigned to remove billboard ads for "Captivity" that depicted actress Elisha Cuthbert being gagged by a black-gloved hand, tubes shoved up her nose and left for dead with one breast about to fall out of her shirt. The words on the ad were: "Abduction," "Confinement," "Torture" and "Termination."
The Los Angeles-based Motion Picture Association of America rejected the ads on the grounds they were too indecent for public display. The ads ran anyway -- appearing on some 30 billboards across Los Angeles -- although they were eventually pulled a week later by the After Dark production company. The company claimed the wrong files had been mistakenly sent to the printer.
Upset that the ads ran, activists then pressured the association to remove the R rating given to "Captivity," and make it unrated, to restrict its appearance in theaters and video stores. The Motion Picture Association suspended the "Captivity" rating, delaying its release from May until July, when it eventually grossed $2.6 million at the domestic box office.
"Captivity" director Courtney Solomon took his depictions of sadism one step further by hosting a premiere party for the film with a sado-masochistic theme. He hired the SuicideGirls -- punk rock West Coast strippers -- to spank guests and chain each other up in provocative positions. Adding to the ambience was a shirtless man suspended from a rack by piercings in his flesh.
Solomon has also called his film "feminist" because the female victim overthrows her assailant in the end.
Embracing 'Feminist' Label
"Hostel" director Roth also claims the "feminist" label, and says his movies have been unfairly associated with "Captivity." He says he found the film's ads offensive and thought, "I'm going to be blamed for this and I don't even want to see that movie."
Roth says women's rights activists are wrong to see him as the enemy. Graphic violence was necessary to show that torture is scary, not titillating, he said, and the scenes are meant to parallel images from Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison as well as criticize violence against women.
But Horvath, of NOW's Hollywood chapter, said, "I just think if you're looking to end that kind of behavior against women, you don't continue to create it."
Filmmakers like Roth take pains to distinguish their fictional work from illegal "snuff and rape" films, where actual crimes are carried out on camera.
"A snuff or rape film is worlds away from a fictional horror movie," wrote First Amendment attorney and screenwriter Julie Hildman in an e-mail interview. Hildman has written that "torture porn" is an unfair label. "One has victims of terrible crimes; the other has actors who walk away unhurt."
Although they were made before "Hostel," two other films -- "Saw," which grossed $18 million at its opening weekend, and "House of 1,000 Corpses," which grossed $12.6 million -- have also been labeled torture porn by critics. But the subgenre's box office draw has dropped with the many knockoffs and sequels that followed.
Some critics have refused to review torture porn films because of the ways women are depicted as drug-addicted prostitutes ("Saw"), strippers ("The Devil's Rejects") or sex addicts ("Black Snake Moan").
Critics like Soloway see a connection between the dearth of women in Hollywood and torture porn.
In 2007, only 7 percent of the Screen Directors Guild's members were female; no woman has ever won an Academy Award for best director; and the horror, fantasy and action genres have the smallest fraction of female directors.
"Men are making films and calling them feminist when they don't understand the feminine experience," Soloway said. "It's their salute to how they see female power."
A few months ago, Horvath said she began receiving calls from publicists pitching the new film, "P2," to NOW as a critical look at violence against women, and she attended the premiere.
"Essentially I watched an hour and 45 minutes of a woman being stalked, drugged, nearly raped and terrorized," she said. In the end, the character escapes and kills her attacker. "It's like as long as the woman kills the guy at the end, then of course it's a female empowerment movie."
Roth said that for his upcoming thriller "Cell" he has been consciously writing strong roles for his female characters. And, expressing an ongoing interest in his brand of "feminist" horror, he said that he experiences fear from seeing "Keira Knightley's skeletal figure on the cover of Vanity Fair. Perhaps that'll be the subject of my next film."
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Posted by: Nebris on Mar 20, 2008 1:38 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: aren't you
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» RE: aren't you
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» RE: aren't you
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Posted by: goldmarx on Mar 20, 2008 3:55 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women have ALWAYS been represented poorly in Hollywood, but torture porn, its critics argue, is only a few years old, so what it took it so long to develop???
If it's not empowerment if the women wins in the end, then would it be better if the killer wins?
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Posted by: Incertus (Bradley) on Mar 20, 2008 4:10 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Furthermore, it might have been interesting to note that the only really commercially successful "torture porn" movies-- Saw and Hostel-- have featured men perpetuating violence against men (contrary to the author's assertion, there's only one woman victim in Hostel, and the violence perpetuated against her happens almost entirely off-camera). People genuinely don't seem to want to see women brutalized-- yet these films continue to be made.
Perhaps most irritatingly, the author glosses over the tastelessness of Captivity and instead focuses on whether hosting a BDSM-themed party is weird or deviant. Again, I understand the rhetorical point-- the majority of people reading probably do find BDSM weird or deviant, so describing this party is a manipulative way to get the reader to swallow the rest of the article's argument. But it's cheap and intellectually vapid, and only goes to illustrate this article's inability to offer up a substantial argument about a significant issue.
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» RE: Yes, torture of HUMANS is being mainstreamed. Why the gender bashing spin?
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» RE: Not the strongest argument
Posted by: Libsrule
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Posted by: talkville on Mar 20, 2008 4:14 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And here an expression of our 'modernized' environment, so advanced and an acme to all that has gone on before...
We can elevate this multifarious fantastic and imaginary activity and transcribe it onto Film!! What un-heard of talents!
Even Muses can be Easy and generate an Industry that would strike a Michaelangelo deaf dumb and mute -- almost, but not quite, paralyze him!
If Myth were Real, what might Eros say today, leaving the theatre or a visit to that website?
Who knows? It's all pretty a-musing. Who speaks behind these productions aimed at our desire? And why? The whole issue of Torture (real and symbolic) seems to be in the air these days; let's hope these porn films are only the rudimentary beginnings and not the end of the discussions -- some sectors of our citizenry seem to believe in PRACTICING such things in the name of purportedly 'keeping us all Safe'. They may be watching not so much to 'enjoy' as to learn. Some of them even occupy governmental positions and find themselves in excellent positions to decide in such matters.
Politics has always had a special affinity and relation with Art and Aesthetics. Sometimes in architectures, sometimes in films, sometimes in philosophies, and sometimes in sciences. Crude Art, crude Politics, crude Economics.
It's pretty easy to waste the immense creativity found in our social lives these days. Hopefully, someday soon, we can harness it all and dignify the human individual; but that's not so easy as all that.
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» RE: How easy these days!
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Mar 20, 2008 4:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But the fact that everyone feels they have to explain and justify things to the feminists is what's stupid about all of this. Does every movie have to be judged by how it portrays women, or whether or not it "empowers" them, whatever that means?
Some movies are about fantasy. Some try to reflect reality. Either way, women and men aren't always treated well.
Political correctness doesn't make a movie good or bad, yet so many critics these days seem to think it does. Let's keep it simple: Did the movie suck or not?
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Posted by: Bloodwedding on Mar 20, 2008 5:34 AM
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Posted by: rickiey on Mar 20, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. First time I've ever seen a feminist criticizing that a woman castrates a wanna-be rapist in a movie. I figured she'd be cheering.
Some critics have refused to review torture porn films because of the ways women are depicted as drug-addicted prostitutes ("Saw"), strippers ("The Devil's Rejects") or sex addicts ("Black Snake Moan").
But it's ok to depect men as: Sex addicts, serial killers, pedophiles, or rapists, right? Thats ok? I'm merely asking for clarification.
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Mar 20, 2008 6:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My question, then, is do we only bother to look at the violence going on when it is happening to women... or do we only focus on the women in these films ignoring the violence done to men or simply looking at that violence through the lens of its effect on women?
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Posted by: beautifulady2003 on Mar 20, 2008 6:57 AM
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» RE: Yecchhhhh
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» No, Josh- women are ALWAYS the victim!
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» Well, while I don't agree...
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» RE: Well, while I don't agree...
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Posted by: xxdr_zombiexx on Mar 20, 2008 7:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real stuff is blacked out of the American media, but you can go see fake gnarliness for a fee.
They oughtta show the war to people. They ought to show all the pix from Abu Grahib on ABC news for an hour.
It's "pornographic" because people get a thrill from looking at it and it is somewhat "censored" materical in our country.
In these movies, the horror is controlled and presented in a way people can control, unlike the starkness of real-world horror.
It's immediate and makes people sick. The images are traumatic.
It's porn because the "victims" aren't real so the consequences aren't real, like in real life.
This is a fine example of "desensitization".
You see this a lot on the "Right" - lots of folks known for their attraction to "war porn" - actual battle scenes of dead and mutilated people. They gloat over how desensitized they are to it.
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Posted by: richholland on Mar 20, 2008 7:35 AM
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sad for the american people is that other countries have values, community feelings, respect for nature.... etc...
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Posted by: Q30 on Mar 20, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone notice this?
Anyone...?
Anyone...?
...Bueller?
I just find it amazing that a feminist can see a movie like Saving Private Ryan where (drafted) men are getting blown-apart every few seconds, and will get mad at the sexism of how the only female characters in the movie are office workers. Fugging huge blinders you got-on there, eh wot?
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» RE: So... anyone ever notice...
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» RE: So... anyone ever notice...
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» RE: Real mature folks
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» RE: So... anyone ever notice...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: So... anyone ever notice...
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Posted by: cmdrcero on Mar 20, 2008 8:27 AM
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Mar 20, 2008 8:37 AM
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Posted by: JohnU on Mar 20, 2008 8:38 AM
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The only known snuff film prosecution was of a film that exploited the snuff film meme, but did not actually do it. All the actors were found to be alive and well, and the only thing that was shot was the film.
It is time to stop acting as if snuff films exist. There are enough real problems in the world.
John U
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» RE: Let Go of the Snuff Film Myth
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Posted by: debmcd on Mar 20, 2008 9:08 AM
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Posted by: Cwood on Mar 20, 2008 9:57 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For anybody that saw these movies, the feeling isn't exactly "getting off" while watching them. Its horror (hence the genre - horror). Nobody is cheering on the murder of the victims, or nodding in approval of the villains. Its pretty clear who and what is considered evil.
We live in a society that largely condones the murder of foreign civillians in our war, that practices torture, extroardinary rendition, indefinite detention (notice any themes similar to "captivity"?). Maybe its a good thing that fictional movies can very clearly present the immorality of these acts in a nation that finds them to be morally ambiguous, or even acceptable.
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Posted by: wireup on Mar 20, 2008 10:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're talking about TORTURE, folks. TORTURE. Do you want to see ANYONE being tortured? Or is it okay to TORTURE one sex but not TORTURE the other sex?
WAKE UP, PEOPLE!
The United States - our country - is TORTURING people FOR REAL. Movies have ALWAYS reflected what is happening in real life.
TORTURE is going on in real life...in my name...and in your name!
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» RE: What's wrong with you folks?
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» RE: What's wrong with you folks?
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Posted by: zhine on Mar 20, 2008 10:29 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem I find with it, that keeps me from loving it to bits, is the annoying stereotype of the women portrayed.
So they get tortured and terrorised and then manage to be strong and smart and tough and escape. That isn't feminism. That's a stereotype of repression combined with the obvious: You are repressed/opressed, then, if you aren't an idiot, you escape. What does that say to and about women? It's just the same old going-over of women in abusive situations and seems to state that this is the status quo for women.
What does that say about men? That the men are always the stupid and weak ones who can't manage to save themselves is just silly. That they are almost always the ones depicted as the cruel torturers, in often stereotypical psychopathic rolls is just that--stereotypical.
I think it does both genders a disservice to call torture porn feminist.
I think the whole genre needs to get over the idea that it's about empowering women. It's not empowering. It's stereotyping the obvious.
I understand some directors don't like the label they get pasted with when they make a film. I understand many of them are trying to use violence to get a message across. But to choose to call their movies feminist feels unrealistic. As unrealistic as their actual torture, sad to say. Though 'Hostel' was a nice change up on the theme.
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Posted by: molliev on Mar 20, 2008 10:54 AM
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Posted by: Ras3hilton on Mar 20, 2008 10:55 AM
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Posted by: Crazy H on Mar 20, 2008 12:20 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Species: Female hotty kills many.
Basic Instinct: ditto.
As several posters above note - the vast majority of violence in movies is directed at men, and often perpetrated by women.
I'm not at all in favor of slasher pics, but gosh, let's at least be unbiased about it...
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Posted by: Wacre on Mar 20, 2008 12:34 PM
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» RE: Black Snake Moan was a good film
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Posted by: ElenaG on Mar 20, 2008 5:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see how many of you can say "hey, the guy's getting beat up too" I would say that too if I wasn't given the history of violence against women and how time after time the subjectivity of women is replaced by objectivity. I must ask you to pay attention to how the woman is portrayed. Try googling the image for "The Slumber Party Massacre."
On a side note, in a December 1984 issue of Penthouse magazine, photographer Akira Ishigaki created a photo-essay entitled "Sakura" that illustrated orient-inspired depictions of women in corpse-like positions. One of them in particular had a woman in a harness, her arms bound behind her back, suspended from a tree by a rope--one leg exposed to her thigh--her body limp and her head slumped. Two months after this issue hit the stands, an 8-year old Chinese girl Jean Kar-Har-Fewel was found raped, murdered and tied to a tree with a rope around her neck.
THE CONSEQUENCES ARE REAL!!
check out the link below for more info on media portrayal of sexualized violence:
http://st4tic.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/45/
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» RE: I'm Disappointed . . . with these comments
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» RE: I'm Disappointed . . . with these comments
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» RE: I'm Disappointed . . . with these comments
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» RE: I'm Disappointed . . . with these comments
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Posted by: zerachiel on Mar 20, 2008 8:24 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was very disapointed.
It seems to me that commenting on the feminist qualities (or lack there-of) of these films is like trying to decide whether a chef has seasoned a piece of rotten meat properly. You're still going to get sick if you eat it.
What I had hoped to read was something on the order of: Why are Americans finding entertainment value in movies whose whole point is to try to up the last one in the amount of violent and sadistic torture they can pack 2.5 hours.
Alas, it was not to be.
This needs to be addressed. Another poster wrote that there is a link between what people see in the media and what they do. Yes, we are supposed to see the "villains" of these movies as evil, and we tell ourselves that we do. But what these movies show is that if you are willing to abandon all shreds of human decency and morals that you will have power over all those who still hold to them.
This speaks to people, especially the young.
I've heard kids, many of them preteens talking about "how cool it was that this one guy got his jaw ripped off and this other took so long to die" etc... If you don't think that children can get there hands on these films then you haven't been around any recently.
We are already seeing the results.
Watching a women getting raped by the barrel of a pistol (Devil's rejects), or a person having their jaw slowly ripped off (one of the Saw movies, can't remember witch), or people kidnapped getting and beaten (Hostel).
To quote Gladiator "Are You Not Entertained!"
People tell me they watch it for the psychological value. This is stupid, it's like saying that watching a child retreating into their self after being beaten by their parents is interesting to watch, or saying that kidnapping twins and preforming invasive and torturous medical experiments on one while using the other as a control is intriguing.
Too those who say, "It's just film, it's not real." Look into the above, or better yet, watch the news, or is that too REAL?
To me, these films are a symptom of a sickness in our society. Only our questions and our actions will cure it.
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Posted by: meeneecat on Mar 20, 2008 9:08 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is this violence sexist? Because in these movies the women always have to look "sexy" "innocent" "pretty" etc. They are always given their dose of torture with sexual overtones. It's not equal opportunity torture like some of the other commenters have argued here. The torture that women are portrayed with is overtly sexual. And this is the problem because the real violence that happens to women, is mostly sexual/domestic. I don't understand why there aren't more men making these connections - the only explanation I can think of is that they either just don't think, or they will continually let themselves be fooled by the marketing machines of these "torture porn" movie studios. I don't want to be rude in saying that the audience of these movies don't think with their brains, but marketers know that selling sex is one way to get men to give them money. Obviously it has worked here with the way some commenters are defending these trash movies.
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» RE: The fact that there are so many commenters defending these movies....
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» RE: The fact that there are so many commenters defending these movies....
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» RE: The fact that there are so many commenters defending these movies....
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Posted by: STORMY78 on Mar 21, 2008 10:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IT'S TIME TO MAKE A CHANGE AND START ANEW. WE NEED A WOMEN RUNNING THIS COUNTRY. HILLARY WILL MAKE THINGS CHANGE.
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Posted by: JazzPainter on Mar 21, 2008 5:41 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The adult film industry, always looking for more and more intense graphic ways to thrill the increasingly desensitized porn addict has been turning to Sadism and bondage and extreme humilitation of women.
Extreme Sado-masochistic films depicting not just ropes and whip action, but torture by piercing breasts and genitals with needles, lashings that draw blood, using cattle prods to apply electric shocks to the woman's genitals and breasts, gang rapes that include scenes of the group of men urinating into the mouths of the actressses.
I have also heard even these extreme films labeled as "feminist" because the women "consent" to the acts they are asked to film (how much and what kind of drugs or desperation lead these women to 'consent' is my first question).
I have concluded that we need to re-examine how we understand sex in America. A broader and more considered rethinking that can maybe begin to bring American culture out from the sexual closets almost every one is in, of one kind or another. A closet that is safe and dark with denial that American sexual attitudes are perverted by our repressive sexual mores.
When the wealthy elite man spends $5000 for a few hours of sex with a young woman, when powerful politicians are discovered seeking anonymous sex in an airport bathroom, when Jr. High school teachers are "falling in love" with their 14 year old students, and see that fully 25% of American teenage girls are infected with one or more sexually transmitted diseases, when we look at the epidemic of rape and the fact that pornography is still the biggest industry on the world wide web, we have to start facing up to the fact that all these are a signs of our national sexual dysfunction.
And my guess is that dysfunction is rooted in our denial and lack of genuine sexual openess -- a denial that is tortured by the prevalence of sexual imagery and allusion to sexuality found virtually everywhere in media and on-line.
And that prevelance in turn leads to a desensitation, requiring ever stronger jolts to provoke the desired response.
So now we have both soft-core and hard-core torture porn, and it is hard to imagine where we go from here.
BUt just as Barack Obama spoke of our need to discuss race in a larger context, maybe it is time to start discussing our sexuality in different, broader, more open terms, as adults who need to find a way back to the joy of sex, and the rewards of intimacy.
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Posted by: lindalee on Mar 25, 2008 7:01 AM
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I would call myself a lover of horror movies from the 1970s on. Hostel may have the "torture porn" title but it is a horror movie...period. Horror movies have always depicted women as screeching, whiny, emotional and stupid, with a few exceptions here and there. These women make decisions that I would have never made and have you ever noticed that when they being chased they fall down and just lay there and scream? Please. Very few guys in these movies are doing any of that shit. Horror movies do kill alot of guys, but they kill more women and I've never seen any of the interesting parts of a guy who is about to die in a horror movie.
No, I didn't see Hostel and I'm not interested. I like horror but this is too much. I'm done with the Saw movies too. They all go too far.
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Posted by: lerato.moloi
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Posted by: lerato.moloi on Mar 26, 2008 8:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do have to take some issue with the ways in which feminists have characterized all of these films under one blanket term, "torture porn," and basically have aligned the image of the tortured female body with misogyny. While I agree that any image of a woman being abused, raped, or hurt presents problems at the level of spectatorship (i.e. the images may encourage the audience to identify with the torturer or take pleasure in the violent spectacle) I do not agree that these images lead to the same ideological conclusions. Hostel: Part II, for instance, contains a critique of misogyny beyond the heroine's successful overthrow of her torturer. The scene with Whitney being tortured in lingerie, for instance, seems so overtly staged to please the male character (who up until this point has been coded as a villainous character) that one might read the scene as a critique of men's fantasies about women as inherently violent. Roth's film, in general, seems far more restrained in its portrayal of women being tortured than Captivity, and I would argue that the three women protagonists are given greater complexity than average horror characters, opening up possibilities for women viewers to subversively engage with this film.
None of this is to say that Hostel: Part II is a "feminist film." For me, the most troubling element of the film is not so much the tortured female body (though it is troubling in certain instances) but the portrayal of one woman killing another (coded as an ethnic lesbian Other) in the film's conclusion. Feminist critics focusing strictly on representations of violence in these films fail to reveal the more problematic and nuanced ways that the text enacts homophobia and misogyny.
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Posted by: lerato.moloi on Mar 27, 2008 5:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That said, I would also say that examining these images outside of the context of the larger text really does a disservice to the discussion. These characters are depicted sympathetically, and I would argue that several of the tortures serve as a commentary on male fantasies about women: torture becomes aligned with the pornographic fantasy in a way that suggests these images do violence to women.
While I find both Hostels troubling in various ways, I think it's important to consider the multiple ways people can read these texts and critically engage with them. I am a feminist and enjoy horror films, but I also use them as an opportunity to question the dominant patriarchal ideologies that pervade our society. I think many women also get vicarious pleasure watching the heroine succeed.
Bottom-line: we shouldn't judge people for the pleasures they take in possibly regressive texts, but rather for how they engage (or don't engage) with these films.
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Posted by: Nebris on Mar 20, 2008 1:38 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: aren't you
Posted by: boydranchitos
» RE: aren't you
Posted by: Nebris
» RE: aren't you
Posted by: 23skidoo
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Posted by: goldmarx on Mar 20, 2008 3:55 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women have ALWAYS been represented poorly in Hollywood, but torture porn, its critics argue, is only a few years old, so what it took it so long to develop???
If it's not empowerment if the women wins in the end, then would it be better if the killer wins?
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» RE: Silly comments
Posted by: meeneecat
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Posted by: Incertus (Bradley) on Mar 20, 2008 4:10 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Furthermore, it might have been interesting to note that the only really commercially successful "torture porn" movies-- Saw and Hostel-- have featured men perpetuating violence against men (contrary to the author's assertion, there's only one woman victim in Hostel, and the violence perpetuated against her happens almost entirely off-camera). People genuinely don't seem to want to see women brutalized-- yet these films continue to be made.
Perhaps most irritatingly, the author glosses over the tastelessness of Captivity and instead focuses on whether hosting a BDSM-themed party is weird or deviant. Again, I understand the rhetorical point-- the majority of people reading probably do find BDSM weird or deviant, so describing this party is a manipulative way to get the reader to swallow the rest of the article's argument. But it's cheap and intellectually vapid, and only goes to illustrate this article's inability to offer up a substantial argument about a significant issue.
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» RE: Yes, torture of HUMANS is being mainstreamed. Why the gender bashing spin?
Posted by: meeneecat
» RE: Not the strongest argument
Posted by: Libsrule
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Posted by: talkville on Mar 20, 2008 4:14 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And here an expression of our 'modernized' environment, so advanced and an acme to all that has gone on before...
We can elevate this multifarious fantastic and imaginary activity and transcribe it onto Film!! What un-heard of talents!
Even Muses can be Easy and generate an Industry that would strike a Michaelangelo deaf dumb and mute -- almost, but not quite, paralyze him!
If Myth were Real, what might Eros say today, leaving the theatre or a visit to that website?
Who knows? It's all pretty a-musing. Who speaks behind these productions aimed at our desire? And why? The whole issue of Torture (real and symbolic) seems to be in the air these days; let's hope these porn films are only the rudimentary beginnings and not the end of the discussions -- some sectors of our citizenry seem to believe in PRACTICING such things in the name of purportedly 'keeping us all Safe'. They may be watching not so much to 'enjoy' as to learn. Some of them even occupy governmental positions and find themselves in excellent positions to decide in such matters.
Politics has always had a special affinity and relation with Art and Aesthetics. Sometimes in architectures, sometimes in films, sometimes in philosophies, and sometimes in sciences. Crude Art, crude Politics, crude Economics.
It's pretty easy to waste the immense creativity found in our social lives these days. Hopefully, someday soon, we can harness it all and dignify the human individual; but that's not so easy as all that.
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» RE: How easy these days!
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: How easy these days!
Posted by: talkville
» RE: How easy these days!
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» RE: While you are
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» RE: While you are
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Mar 20, 2008 4:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But the fact that everyone feels they have to explain and justify things to the feminists is what's stupid about all of this. Does every movie have to be judged by how it portrays women, or whether or not it "empowers" them, whatever that means?
Some movies are about fantasy. Some try to reflect reality. Either way, women and men aren't always treated well.
Political correctness doesn't make a movie good or bad, yet so many critics these days seem to think it does. Let's keep it simple: Did the movie suck or not?
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» RE: Show-biz
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Show-biz
Posted by: claude
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Posted by: Bloodwedding on Mar 20, 2008 5:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: rickiey on Mar 20, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. First time I've ever seen a feminist criticizing that a woman castrates a wanna-be rapist in a movie. I figured she'd be cheering.
Some critics have refused to review torture porn films because of the ways women are depicted as drug-addicted prostitutes ("Saw"), strippers ("The Devil's Rejects") or sex addicts ("Black Snake Moan").
But it's ok to depect men as: Sex addicts, serial killers, pedophiles, or rapists, right? Thats ok? I'm merely asking for clarification.
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Mar 20, 2008 6:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My question, then, is do we only bother to look at the violence going on when it is happening to women... or do we only focus on the women in these films ignoring the violence done to men or simply looking at that violence through the lens of its effect on women?
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Posted by: beautifulady2003 on Mar 20, 2008 6:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Yecchhhhh
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» No, Josh- women are ALWAYS the victim!
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» Well, while I don't agree...
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» RE: Well, while I don't agree...
Posted by: molliev
» RE: Yecchhhhh
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» RE: Have YOU seen them?
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Yecchhhhh
Posted by: beautifulady2003
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Posted by: xxdr_zombiexx on Mar 20, 2008 7:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real stuff is blacked out of the American media, but you can go see fake gnarliness for a fee.
They oughtta show the war to people. They ought to show all the pix from Abu Grahib on ABC news for an hour.
It's "pornographic" because people get a thrill from looking at it and it is somewhat "censored" materical in our country.
In these movies, the horror is controlled and presented in a way people can control, unlike the starkness of real-world horror.
It's immediate and makes people sick. The images are traumatic.
It's porn because the "victims" aren't real so the consequences aren't real, like in real life.
This is a fine example of "desensitization".
You see this a lot on the "Right" - lots of folks known for their attraction to "war porn" - actual battle scenes of dead and mutilated people. They gloat over how desensitized they are to it.
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Posted by: richholland on Mar 20, 2008 7:35 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
sad for the american people is that other countries have values, community feelings, respect for nature.... etc...
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» RE: sickness
Posted by: molliev
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Posted by: Q30 on Mar 20, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone notice this?
Anyone...?
Anyone...?
...Bueller?
I just find it amazing that a feminist can see a movie like Saving Private Ryan where (drafted) men are getting blown-apart every few seconds, and will get mad at the sexism of how the only female characters in the movie are office workers. Fugging huge blinders you got-on there, eh wot?
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» RE: So... anyone ever notice...
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» RE: So... anyone ever notice...
Posted by: Q30
» RE: Real mature folks
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: So... anyone ever notice...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: So... anyone ever notice...
Posted by: meeneecat
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Posted by: cmdrcero on Mar 20, 2008 8:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Mar 20, 2008 8:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: JohnU on Mar 20, 2008 8:38 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only known snuff film prosecution was of a film that exploited the snuff film meme, but did not actually do it. All the actors were found to be alive and well, and the only thing that was shot was the film.
It is time to stop acting as if snuff films exist. There are enough real problems in the world.
John U
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» RE: Let Go of the Snuff Film Myth
Posted by: 23skidoo
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Posted by: debmcd on Mar 20, 2008 9:08 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Cwood on Mar 20, 2008 9:57 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For anybody that saw these movies, the feeling isn't exactly "getting off" while watching them. Its horror (hence the genre - horror). Nobody is cheering on the murder of the victims, or nodding in approval of the villains. Its pretty clear who and what is considered evil.
We live in a society that largely condones the murder of foreign civillians in our war, that practices torture, extroardinary rendition, indefinite detention (notice any themes similar to "captivity"?). Maybe its a good thing that fictional movies can very clearly present the immorality of these acts in a nation that finds them to be morally ambiguous, or even acceptable.
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Posted by: wireup on Mar 20, 2008 10:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're talking about TORTURE, folks. TORTURE. Do you want to see ANYONE being tortured? Or is it okay to TORTURE one sex but not TORTURE the other sex?
WAKE UP, PEOPLE!
The United States - our country - is TORTURING people FOR REAL. Movies have ALWAYS reflected what is happening in real life.
TORTURE is going on in real life...in my name...and in your name!
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» RE: What's wrong with you folks?
Posted by: rickiey
» RE: What's wrong with you folks?
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: zhine on Mar 20, 2008 10:29 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem I find with it, that keeps me from loving it to bits, is the annoying stereotype of the women portrayed.
So they get tortured and terrorised and then manage to be strong and smart and tough and escape. That isn't feminism. That's a stereotype of repression combined with the obvious: You are repressed/opressed, then, if you aren't an idiot, you escape. What does that say to and about women? It's just the same old going-over of women in abusive situations and seems to state that this is the status quo for women.
What does that say about men? That the men are always the stupid and weak ones who can't manage to save themselves is just silly. That they are almost always the ones depicted as the cruel torturers, in often stereotypical psychopathic rolls is just that--stereotypical.
I think it does both genders a disservice to call torture porn feminist.
I think the whole genre needs to get over the idea that it's about empowering women. It's not empowering. It's stereotyping the obvious.
I understand some directors don't like the label they get pasted with when they make a film. I understand many of them are trying to use violence to get a message across. But to choose to call their movies feminist feels unrealistic. As unrealistic as their actual torture, sad to say. Though 'Hostel' was a nice change up on the theme.
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Posted by: molliev on Mar 20, 2008 10:54 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Ras3hilton on Mar 20, 2008 10:55 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Crazy H on Mar 20, 2008 12:20 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Species: Female hotty kills many.
Basic Instinct: ditto.
As several posters above note - the vast majority of violence in movies is directed at men, and often perpetrated by women.
I'm not at all in favor of slasher pics, but gosh, let's at least be unbiased about it...
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» RE: Kill Bill?
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» RE: Kill Bill?
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» RE: Kill Bill?
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» RE: Kill Bill?
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» RE: Kill Bill?
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» RE: Kill Bill?
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Posted by: Wacre on Mar 20, 2008 12:34 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Black Snake Moan was a good film
Posted by: Techubus
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Posted by: ElenaG on Mar 20, 2008 5:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see how many of you can say "hey, the guy's getting beat up too" I would say that too if I wasn't given the history of violence against women and how time after time the subjectivity of women is replaced by objectivity. I must ask you to pay attention to how the woman is portrayed. Try googling the image for "The Slumber Party Massacre."
On a side note, in a December 1984 issue of Penthouse magazine, photographer Akira Ishigaki created a photo-essay entitled "Sakura" that illustrated orient-inspired depictions of women in corpse-like positions. One of them in particular had a woman in a harness, her arms bound behind her back, suspended from a tree by a rope--one leg exposed to her thigh--her body limp and her head slumped. Two months after this issue hit the stands, an 8-year old Chinese girl Jean Kar-Har-Fewel was found raped, murdered and tied to a tree with a rope around her neck.
THE CONSEQUENCES ARE REAL!!
check out the link below for more info on media portrayal of sexualized violence:
http://st4tic.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/45/
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» RE: I'm Disappointed . . . with these comments
Posted by: meeneecat
» RE: I'm Disappointed . . . with these comments
Posted by: leta
» RE: I'm Disappointed . . . with these comments
Posted by: Q30
» RE: I'm Disappointed . . . with these comments
Posted by: meeneecat
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Posted by: zerachiel on Mar 20, 2008 8:24 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was very disapointed.
It seems to me that commenting on the feminist qualities (or lack there-of) of these films is like trying to decide whether a chef has seasoned a piece of rotten meat properly. You're still going to get sick if you eat it.
What I had hoped to read was something on the order of: Why are Americans finding entertainment value in movies whose whole point is to try to up the last one in the amount of violent and sadistic torture they can pack 2.5 hours.
Alas, it was not to be.
This needs to be addressed. Another poster wrote that there is a link between what people see in the media and what they do. Yes, we are supposed to see the "villains" of these movies as evil, and we tell ourselves that we do. But what these movies show is that if you are willing to abandon all shreds of human decency and morals that you will have power over all those who still hold to them.
This speaks to people, especially the young.
I've heard kids, many of them preteens talking about "how cool it was that this one guy got his jaw ripped off and this other took so long to die" etc... If you don't think that children can get there hands on these films then you haven't been around any recently.
We are already seeing the results.
Watching a women getting raped by the barrel of a pistol (Devil's rejects), or a person having their jaw slowly ripped off (one of the Saw movies, can't remember witch), or people kidnapped getting and beaten (Hostel).
To quote Gladiator "Are You Not Entertained!"
People tell me they watch it for the psychological value. This is stupid, it's like saying that watching a child retreating into their self after being beaten by their parents is interesting to watch, or saying that kidnapping twins and preforming invasive and torturous medical experiments on one while using the other as a control is intriguing.
Too those who say, "It's just film, it's not real." Look into the above, or better yet, watch the news, or is that too REAL?
To me, these films are a symptom of a sickness in our society. Only our questions and our actions will cure it.
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Posted by: meeneecat on Mar 20, 2008 9:08 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is this violence sexist? Because in these movies the women always have to look "sexy" "innocent" "pretty" etc. They are always given their dose of torture with sexual overtones. It's not equal opportunity torture like some of the other commenters have argued here. The torture that women are portrayed with is overtly sexual. And this is the problem because the real violence that happens to women, is mostly sexual/domestic. I don't understand why there aren't more men making these connections - the only explanation I can think of is that they either just don't think, or they will continually let themselves be fooled by the marketing machines of these "torture porn" movie studios. I don't want to be rude in saying that the audience of these movies don't think with their brains, but marketers know that selling sex is one way to get men to give them money. Obviously it has worked here with the way some commenters are defending these trash movies.
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» RE: The fact that there are so many commenters defending these movies....
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» RE: The fact that there are so many commenters defending these movies....
Posted by: meeneecat
» RE: The fact that there are so many commenters defending these movies....
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Posted by: STORMY78 on Mar 21, 2008 10:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IT'S TIME TO MAKE A CHANGE AND START ANEW. WE NEED A WOMEN RUNNING THIS COUNTRY. HILLARY WILL MAKE THINGS CHANGE.
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» RE: stormy7
Posted by: rickiey
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Posted by: JazzPainter on Mar 21, 2008 5:41 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The adult film industry, always looking for more and more intense graphic ways to thrill the increasingly desensitized porn addict has been turning to Sadism and bondage and extreme humilitation of women.
Extreme Sado-masochistic films depicting not just ropes and whip action, but torture by piercing breasts and genitals with needles, lashings that draw blood, using cattle prods to apply electric shocks to the woman's genitals and breasts, gang rapes that include scenes of the group of men urinating into the mouths of the actressses.
I have also heard even these extreme films labeled as "feminist" because the women "consent" to the acts they are asked to film (how much and what kind of drugs or desperation lead these women to 'consent' is my first question).
I have concluded that we need to re-examine how we understand sex in America. A broader and more considered rethinking that can maybe begin to bring American culture out from the sexual closets almost every one is in, of one kind or another. A closet that is safe and dark with denial that American sexual attitudes are perverted by our repressive sexual mores.
When the wealthy elite man spends $5000 for a few hours of sex with a young woman, when powerful politicians are discovered seeking anonymous sex in an airport bathroom, when Jr. High school teachers are "falling in love" with their 14 year old students, and see that fully 25% of American teenage girls are infected with one or more sexually transmitted diseases, when we look at the epidemic of rape and the fact that pornography is still the biggest industry on the world wide web, we have to start facing up to the fact that all these are a signs of our national sexual dysfunction.
And my guess is that dysfunction is rooted in our denial and lack of genuine sexual openess -- a denial that is tortured by the prevalence of sexual imagery and allusion to sexuality found virtually everywhere in media and on-line.
And that prevelance in turn leads to a desensitation, requiring ever stronger jolts to provoke the desired response.
So now we have both soft-core and hard-core torture porn, and it is hard to imagine where we go from here.
BUt just as Barack Obama spoke of our need to discuss race in a larger context, maybe it is time to start discussing our sexuality in different, broader, more open terms, as adults who need to find a way back to the joy of sex, and the rewards of intimacy.
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Posted by: lindalee on Mar 25, 2008 7:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would call myself a lover of horror movies from the 1970s on. Hostel may have the "torture porn" title but it is a horror movie...period. Horror movies have always depicted women as screeching, whiny, emotional and stupid, with a few exceptions here and there. These women make decisions that I would have never made and have you ever noticed that when they being chased they fall down and just lay there and scream? Please. Very few guys in these movies are doing any of that shit. Horror movies do kill alot of guys, but they kill more women and I've never seen any of the interesting parts of a guy who is about to die in a horror movie.
No, I didn't see Hostel and I'm not interested. I like horror but this is too much. I'm done with the Saw movies too. They all go too far.
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» RE: sexism is alive and well on alternet
Posted by: lerato.moloi
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Posted by: lerato.moloi on Mar 26, 2008 8:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do have to take some issue with the ways in which feminists have characterized all of these films under one blanket term, "torture porn," and basically have aligned the image of the tortured female body with misogyny. While I agree that any image of a woman being abused, raped, or hurt presents problems at the level of spectatorship (i.e. the images may encourage the audience to identify with the torturer or take pleasure in the violent spectacle) I do not agree that these images lead to the same ideological conclusions. Hostel: Part II, for instance, contains a critique of misogyny beyond the heroine's successful overthrow of her torturer. The scene with Whitney being tortured in lingerie, for instance, seems so overtly staged to please the male character (who up until this point has been coded as a villainous character) that one might read the scene as a critique of men's fantasies about women as inherently violent. Roth's film, in general, seems far more restrained in its portrayal of women being tortured than Captivity, and I would argue that the three women protagonists are given greater complexity than average horror characters, opening up possibilities for women viewers to subversively engage with this film.
None of this is to say that Hostel: Part II is a "feminist film." For me, the most troubling element of the film is not so much the tortured female body (though it is troubling in certain instances) but the portrayal of one woman killing another (coded as an ethnic lesbian Other) in the film's conclusion. Feminist critics focusing strictly on representations of violence in these films fail to reveal the more problematic and nuanced ways that the text enacts homophobia and misogyny.
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Posted by: lerato.moloi on Mar 27, 2008 5:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That said, I would also say that examining these images outside of the context of the larger text really does a disservice to the discussion. These characters are depicted sympathetically, and I would argue that several of the tortures serve as a commentary on male fantasies about women: torture becomes aligned with the pornographic fantasy in a way that suggests these images do violence to women.
While I find both Hostels troubling in various ways, I think it's important to consider the multiple ways people can read these texts and critically engage with them. I am a feminist and enjoy horror films, but I also use them as an opportunity to question the dominant patriarchal ideologies that pervade our society. I think many women also get vicarious pleasure watching the heroine succeed.
Bottom-line: we shouldn't judge people for the pleasures they take in possibly regressive texts, but rather for how they engage (or don't engage) with these films.
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