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Reproductive Justice and Gender

Misogyny Is America's True National Pastime

By Bob Herbert, The New York Times. Posted January 17, 2008.


Even baseball can't compete with misogyny.
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With Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton's win in New Hampshire, gender issues are suddenly in the news. Where has everybody been?

If there was ever a story that deserved more coverage by the news media, it's the dark persistence of misogyny in America. Sexism in its myriad destructive forms permeates nearly every aspect of American life. For many men, it's the true national pastime, much bigger than baseball or football.

Little attention is being paid to the toll that misogyny takes on society in general, and women and girls in particular.

Its forms are limitless. Hard-core pornography is a multibillion-dollar business, having spread far beyond the stereotyped raincoat crowd to anyone with a laptop and a password. Crowds of crazed photographers risk life and limb to get shots of Paris Hilton or Britney Spears without their underwear. At New York Jets home games, men regularly gather at Gate D to urge female fans to expose themselves.

In its grimmest aspects, misogyny manifests itself in hideous violence -- from brutal beatings and rape to outright torture and murder. Fifteen months ago, a gunman invaded an Amish schoolhouse in rural Pennsylvania, separated the girls from the boys, and then shot 10 of the girls, killing five.

The cable news channels revel in stories about women (almost always young and attractive) who come to a gruesome end at the hands of violent men. The stories seldom, if ever, raise the issue of misogyny, which permeates not just the crimes themselves, but the coverage as well.

The latest of these obsessively covered stories concerned a pregnant marine, Maria Frances Lauterbach, who had complained to authorities that she had been raped by a fellow marine. Her body was found last week buried in a backyard fire pit in North Carolina.

It just so happens that the Democratic presidential candidates are campaigning this week in the misogyny capital of America: Nevada. It's a perfect place to bring up the way women are viewed and treated in this society, but don't hold your breath. Presidential wannabes are hardly in the habit of insulting the locals.

Prostitution is legal in much of Nevada and heavily promoted even where it's not. In Las Vegas, where prostitution is illegal but flourishes nevertheless, Mayor Oscar Goodman has said that creating a series of legal, "magnificent" brothels would be a great development tool for his city.

The fundamental problem in all of this is that women and girls are dehumanized, opening the floodgates to every kind of mistreatment. "Once you dehumanize somebody, everything else is possible," said Taina Bien-Aimé, executive director of the women's advocacy group Equality Now.

A grotesque exercise in the dehumanization of women is carried out routinely at Sheri's Ranch, a legal brothel about an hour's ride outside of Vegas. There the women have to respond like Pavlov's dog to an electronic bell that might ring at any hour of the day or night. At the sound of the bell, the prostitutes have five minutes to get to an assembly area where they line up, virtually naked, and submit to a humiliating inspection by any prospective customer who has happened to drop by.

If you don't think this is an issue worthy of a presidential campaign, consider the scandalous way that women are treated in the military and the fact that the winner of this election will become the commander in chief.

The sexual mistreatment of women in the military is widespread. The Defense Department financed a study in 2003 of female veterans seeking health assistance from the Department of Veterans Affairs. Nearly a third of those surveyed said they had been the victim of a rape or attempted rape during their service.

The Associated Press reported in 2006 that more than 80 military recruiters had been disciplined over the course of a year because of sexual misconduct with young women and girls who had considered joining the military.

There continue to be widespread complaints from women about rape and other forms of sexual attacks in the military, and about a culture that tends to protect the attackers.

To what extent are the candidates of either party concerned about these matters? Do they have any sense of how extensive and debilitating the mistreatment of women and girls really is?

We've become so used to the disrespectful, degrading, contemptuous and even violent treatment of women that we hardly notice it. Staggering amounts of violence are unleashed against women and girls every day. Fashionable ads in mainstream publications play off of that violence, exploiting themes of death and dismemberment, female submissiveness and child pornography.

If we've opened the door to the issue of sexism in the presidential campaign, then let's have at it. It's a big and important issue that deserves much more than lip service.

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See more stories tagged with: politics, gender, media, sexism, hillary clinton, misogyny

Bob Herbert joined The New York Times as an Op-Ed columnist in 1993. His twice a week column comments on politics, urban affairs and social trends.

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Misogyny starts at (Christian) home!
Posted by: pklammer on Jan 17, 2008 12:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would suggest that a critical examination of the rootedness of misogyny in American culture should begin with the fundamentalist Christian precepts of wives' subordination and unconditional obedience to husbands. I withdrew my son -- in HORROR -- from attending Baptist "AWANAS" (cubscouts churchalike club) with one of his schoolmates, after I picked him up and noticed the highlighted Bible quotes pasted around the room, including admonitions of women's subservience in the world.

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Pornography is not misogynism.
Posted by: LordFoom on Jan 17, 2008 1:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I agree that misogynism and sexism remain a problem and that feminism's work is not yet done,
and while I also agree that pornography CAN be degrading, I fundamentally disagree that pornography is by definition misogynistic. It can, and often is, sex-positive, depicting women in as sexual equals to men, wanting sex, and choosing sex.

Similarly, I see no problem with prostitution beyond the exploitation of women - the inability to unionize or seek police protection, or escape their physically abusive pimps. But I see nothing inherently immoral about selling and buying sex.

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» Gay Pornography is not misogynism. Posted by: jnelson4765
» Identity Politics Sucks Posted by: timemachinist
Misogyny
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jan 17, 2008 4:34 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's one of the most abused words, as if every guy who's been to a go-go bar, read a girlie mag, or ogled women from a construction site, at Mardi Gras, or Gate D is Ted Bundy or Jack the Ripper.

Boys will be boys. And girls will also be girls, sometimes using their sexuality to make money, get attention, or get their way. It's been going on for millions of years, but the feminists and the Religious Right love to delcare a moral crisis, as if they were born last week.

If you consider sex slavery, that's a human rights issue, just like any other kind of slavery. If you consider crime, that's crime, just like any other crime where men get killed. Once again, nothing new.

But hey. It's always a fun discussion, right?

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» RE: Misogyny Posted by: illit
» RE: Misogyny Posted by: Bibsi
I'm not a feminist....
Posted by: SBK on Jan 17, 2008 4:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if I had a dime for every time I hear that from the women around me. If a plea like this is coming from a columnist in the NYT maybe the liberals, progressives, and the left wing can reconsider the fact that we need a women's movement, we need people to be feminists again. Just because white women can work outside the home and maybe run a company or two (or even the country) doesn't mean we can all turn our backs on the daily reports of women dying at the hands of men they know and gang rapes by Haliburton employees. We gawk at these stories the way we stare at the skank brigade when they get their DUIs or 83 minute prison terms. Stop shaking your head and do something, I ask, what DOES a feminist look like these days and what does it take to see some movement on these issues? We are sliding backward if womens' daily lives remain in danger!

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» Educating young people on feminism Posted by: FriendlyFeminist
» Proud to be a humanist.... Posted by: timemachinist
Amish tragedy
Posted by: realgem63 on Jan 17, 2008 5:04 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Amish tragedy was no example of misogyny.The attacker was angry at God for the death of his baby daughter.There was nothing sexist about what he did.He was angry at God not women.

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» RE: Because his daughter died Posted by: SavageDissension
» RE: Because his daughter died Posted by: SavageDissension
» Here's my comment... Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Amish tragedy Posted by: Bibsi
Sorry, racism trumps misogyny every single possible way
Posted by: xbj on Jan 17, 2008 5:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The kind of secret racism that only ocurrs in the ballot box, where you vote for anyone BUT a black man, while telling the exit poller something completely different.

The kind of secret racism that only ocurrs in the ballot box, behind the cloth, instead of standing up to be counted with your entire neighborhood all watching in a small caucus room.

The kind of secret racism, even among Democrats, who will insure that Obama, should he win the nomination, will never get close to the White House.

Racism runs deep in Amerikkka, especially red state Amerikkka and even in rural blue state Amerikkka. Even a glance at rant and raves in Craiglist in ANY MAJOR CITY shows that communities will not band together to flag down horrifically obscene racist posts against all sorts of minorities.

Misogyny runs deep too, but it's a joke compared to racism of all kinds; against Latinos, Blacks, Arabs, European Moslems, and yeah, even "the Jews" who as you know, are the evil conspiracy behind everything from 9-11 to why entertainment is so bad in this country.

(For racists reading this, that last phrase was sarcasm.)

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» Out of curiosity Posted by: Q30
» RE: Out of curiosity Posted by: illit
» RE: What Garbage... Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: What Garbage... Posted by: naryaquid
» RE: Actions count, words only count if you let them Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» not a horse race Posted by: sweet_byrd
Saltwater Jim
Posted by: Saltwater Jim on Jan 17, 2008 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read this to see what the word "Misogyny" means. I am still not sure. People are taken advantage of constantly in our society, and for many reasons. Women are definetally wanted, needed, and enjoyed by men. Is Misogyny the wanting of women? Is it the physical abuse of women? Am I misogynous if I have a tit fixation? Is it possible for a man to not be misogynous?

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» RE: Saltwater Jim Posted by: illit
Just a bit of a question, Bob...
Posted by: Q30 on Jan 17, 2008 5:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When in US history has it EVER been better to be a black man than a white woman?

Just curious.

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» Yup... Posted by: Q30
» RE: Hope Posted by: boydranchitos
» RE: Yup... Posted by: Bibsi
» Good points! Posted by: LeeAnnG
» Suffrage Posted by: BlueTigress
» During gang rape Posted by: Bic Pentameter
» RE: During gang rape Posted by: Lauren
Hillary lets herself down, not mysogyny
Posted by: Bobsays on Jan 17, 2008 5:59 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Condi never has a problem with that, Margaret Thatcher didn't either. And Angela Merkel is a solid leader who has responded the right way to the small number of times men have crossed the line: she has reamed them out for it. Hillary needs to stop making excuses and look to herself for problems. Clean up her act and then she would judged in a nicer way.

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» RE: Buy-buy, Karl Posted by: xbj
» RE: Buy-buy, Karl Posted by: dockboy
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
Bob Herbert is right and I congratulate him on having
Posted by: naryaquid on Jan 17, 2008 6:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the guts and the insight to stand up to an issue which is LONG overdue for serious, open discussion in the progressive community....Based on the history of similar articles on AlterNet, however, I'm expecting a shit-storm of denial and anger from many males here who, for some reason, seem to radically "regress" when the issue of mysogyny is raised....Let's see if i'm right..I hope I'm not.

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» misogyny on alternet Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» RE: misogyny on alternet Posted by: Afban
» RE: misogyny on alternet Posted by: Lauren
» RE: misogyny on alternet Posted by: maribelle
» RE: misogyny on alternet Posted by: Catherine7755
» RE: misogyny on alternet Posted by: odanu
» RE:MISOGYNY HELPS NOONE Posted by: maribelle
» P.S. Posted by: mjabele
The silent side of Hillary
Posted by: peacelf on Jan 17, 2008 6:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks Bob Herbert for pointing out that Hillary's silence demonstrates she's fit to join the white patriarchal club.

To be a member of the rich and powerful club, one does not have to be white and male. Women and people of color can join simply by keeping their mouths shut about issues of race and gender discrimination.

Hillary is part of the club, and so is Obama. They play by the "rules."

peace

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» RE: The silent side of Hillary Posted by: boydranchitos
» RE: Have a God Complex much? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
MYSOGYNY or whatever we're calling it this week
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jan 17, 2008 7:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rather than demand that people behave in a certain way toward women, we should address the money problem. Equal wages are at the root of it. Big deal it's not as bad as it used to be. That doesn't say much. When a job pays what it pays no matter who gets it, male or female, the ground rules will change. Dollar signs speak volumes. Money is the great equalizer. It adjusts alot of attitudes. We've danced around this for too long. Thanks, ANNA

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» Thank you. Posted by: kepstein7777
Look, here's the CRUCIAL deal Folks
Posted by: xbj on Jan 17, 2008 7:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Karl Rove's strategy is to position misogyny as far more rampant and far greater and far more universal than racism. Karl Rove's and the GOP's own private polls show that any white woman, EVEN Hillary, has a greater chance of winning than any black man, EVEN Obama, who would bring out every closet racist in this country IN BOTH PARTIES to hand the Presidency to WHOEVER the GOP candidate ends up to be. ALL their polls show this. My own polls of my own FAMILY show this. MY black friends know this. My latin friends know this.

Misogynists don't turn out in droves to vote their hate; they have their women and daughters right at hand to do that to every single day. Sure they might be many, but they just don't vote, not when there's a castle to rule and womenfolk to ride herd over, whether that be emotional or physcial abuse. Oh sure, they'll talk about hating Hillary and how much they hate her and post all sorts of obscence crap on craigslist about her, but will they actually get out of their houses and vote?

Not on your life.

For racists, on the other hand, it's a life and death matter as they see it, and they will go to ANY lengths necessary to insure Obama never gets even close to the White House. And ask ANY black friend you might have, there aren't enough black voters in the entire country to combat that kind of racism.

THAT's my point. I'm not belittling mysogyny. How about the condescending palpable hate and imperiousness Obama treats Hillary with? In the debate before the last one, his attitude practically said "Now go get me a cup of coffee" after he said begrudgingly, not even bothering to look up at her, "Ah, Hillary, you're likeable enough."

Want a misogynist? Look at Obama, when it comes to Hillary. NOW you know what the secret stuff he talks about his wife putting him in his place is all about. Sometimes he might as well BE GOP.

DO NOT fall for Rove's tricks. Rove wants Obama to win the nomination. Misogyny will not keep Hillary out of the White House, because they just don't vote in large numbers. Racism will, because racists DO vote, by the millions, in numbers NEVER BEFORE SEEN JUST to keep him out of the White House.

To beat Rove you have to know how he thinks.

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Progressive name-calling
Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 17, 2008 7:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First I want to say that I am a Progressive. However, I am dismayed by the tendency of some progressives to resort to name calling and negative associations when confronting people who disagree with them.

I oppose Hilary Clinton because she is basically in bed with the corporate interests. Her collusion with WalMart, Free Trade and Globalization, the Health Care lobby, and others are well documented. So if I don't support her that makes me a "misogynist"? And by implication a woman hating sexist?

Another example is if you oppose illegal aliens. Immediately you are a "racist"--obviously I am someone who puts on a white hood on weekends to attend the local rally.

If you are a meat eater, then you are a cruel person who hates animals.

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» Quite frankly, yes. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Quite frankly, yes. Posted by: Lauren
» "The Death of Nuance".... Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Progressive name-calling Posted by: desidid
false duality: racism vs sexism?
Posted by: off-the-radar 2 on Jan 17, 2008 8:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
interesting to see some of the comments making the argument that racism is worse than sexism. When, as others have noted, we need to work on both issues. Btw, the author of the article, Bob Herbert, is a man of colour.

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Equal Concerns
Posted by: Southern Gal on Jan 17, 2008 8:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Misogyny and racism are both issues in this and other countries. I don't understand the need to prioritize these issues. If you are among the group impacted that is important to you and the others in your group. I believe that as a woman I can relate to and understand racism and I expect that those who experience racism can understand misogyny towards women. We are all human beings and we deserve respect. I don't recognize any one's right to hate women or people of any color or their right to do them harm.

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MOMof3
Posted by: MOMof3 on Jan 17, 2008 8:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your discussion was a good one. I would have liked to have seen you go further and discuss more about the prevalence of misogyny in the music/ video/ TV/ etc world as it touches our youth. My children do not see the dehumanizing of the female, in the music in particular. The only females valued are the 'sexy' ones, with tiny, perfect bodies, looks, makeup, and clothes (lack thereof), who please their 'men'. And who are easily replaced by the next 'shorty'. We are training our youth to become a culture of misogynists.

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» RE: MOMof3 Posted by: Lauren
» Perfect example Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Perfect example Posted by: odanu
» RE: Perfect example Posted by: MOMof3
The argument so far:
Posted by: Q30 on Jan 17, 2008 9:15 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A: I don't think it's honest or productive to pretend that white women are in a similar class of victims as black men are.

B: MISOGYNIST!

A: How?

B: MISOGYNIST!

A: How am I a misogynist?

B: MISOGYNIST!

A: Do you even know what that word means?

B: MISOGYNIST!

Etc.

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Get real.
Posted by: Krotos on Jan 17, 2008 9:36 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's disappointing to see someone as intelligent and perceptive as Bob Herbert is normally toss out this kind of kneejerk, cliché-laden, perspective-free screed. If you want to see authentic, no-holds-barred misogyny, you need to look in places like Sudan or Pashtunistan or the slums of Gaza. Rare, I suspect, is the native-born American woman who has ever had to fear the prospect of being held down by her mother and grandmother while the local medicine-man uses a bone knife to saw her clitoris off without anaesthesia, or having her skull bashed in by her own father because she had an unapproved romance with a boy from the wrong religious sect. Even in more civilized parts of the world, women still face all kinds of social and legal discrimination that America (and, more generally, the Western world) abandoned decades if not centuries ago. It is safe to say that there has never in recorded history been a population of women as free, equal, and undiscriminated-against as the women of 21st-century First World countries. And the fact that our "feminist" movement spends so much time whining about pop-culture trivialities and imagined slights while basically ignoring the real and horrible plight of women in less-enlightened locales makes me question its very integrity.

Yes, we have prostitution and hard-core porn, but is anyone forcing women to participate in these enterprises? It's not as if they're slaves in some Bronze Age harem: female porn stars are actually very well paid, much more so than their male counterparts.

Yes, women (young women especially) are bombarded from all sides by a soulless, materialistic, looks-obsessed popular culture, but is anyone forcing them to buy all those fashion magazines and watch "Sex and the City" and spend thousands of dollars per year on clothes and makeup? If you don't like this crap, don't (literally) buy into it!

Yes, there are still beastly men who torment and abuse women, but are they tolerated by society? Even among the inmates of maximum-security prisons, rapists and murderers of women are, along with child molesters, the lowest of the low.

Get some perspective. In a time and society when the most senior member of Congress is a woman, a woman has a good chance of winning the presidency, more women than men are obtaining college degrees, etc., an epidemic of "misogyny" seems unlikely.

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» Amen Posted by: kepstein7777
» You "Get real".. Posted by: naryaquid
» RE: Get real. Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: Get real. Posted by: odanu
» "medicine-man" Posted by: sweet_byrd
very thoughtful
Posted by: axjxhx on Jan 17, 2008 9:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you Bob Herbert (and Alternet) for this article. I have been saying that, at the very least, Hillary's presidential campaign will allow the dialog to surface about misogyny in the US. Hilary's presence in the media will show many young women how sexism is definitely not extinct, in fact no where near that as the patriarchs have been trying to brainwash with. American women will be eye-to-eye with the sexist voter who exclaims that they will never vote for a woman (for whatever reason, there are many of them). True colors will be flying.

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» Great comment Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Great comment Posted by: Bibsi
Prostitution is not necessarily misogynistic
Posted by: dudelette on Jan 17, 2008 10:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a woman who used to live in Nevada. The brothels there are run in different ways. Some are run in a much more female friendly fashion (I'm getting this information from documentaries, articles and from a couple of men I knew who were friends with the owners of a couple of the houses), i.e., the girls are fully clothed, mingling in a bar with the men, and the decisions are made there. The women were much better paid, they had regular health checks, the men were required to use condoms, the women usually worked a rotating schedule of anywhere from one to three weeks on, then a week or more off.

I lived in the one county in Nevada (Churchill) that voted prostitution in. All the other counties where it existed had simply never made it illegal and allowed it to remain operational outside of city limits. It was voted in because of the huge Naval Air Station there. There were two brothels located near the air station. We liked it that way. The police liked it that way. Both houses were run by women. There was a pimp who'd keep setting up an illegal operation. When the police would get word where he was located each time, they'd shut him down.

What is the result of legal prostitution?

1. No underage girls. They are registered. No runaways picked up in bus stations or truck stops and pushed into something by a pimp.

2. Little disease. Due to regular condom use, I believe there has only been one reported case of AIDS as the result of legal prostitution in Nevada.

3. Real, regular pay. The women are paid what they make. It's not taken from them by a pimp.

4. Safety. They work in houses, not on the street. They are safe and warm. In decent houses, they can turn down clients, and they can refuse to participate in certain acts. They're not beaten, nor should they fear violence from clients or employers.

5. It's regulated and taxed. Money is going into both the economy and the government, instead of the other way around, and neighborhoods are safer.

Do I like the idea? No. But it's always been there and it will always be there. It's better that it be legal and regulated than illegal and unregulated.

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How many women were burned at the stake vs. how many black men were lynched
Posted by: xbj on Jan 17, 2008 10:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
AND burned.... AND dragged (as late as a few years ago).

And one would even be hard pressed to argue that the witch burnings were not even societal misogyny per se, but religious hysteria run amok. There were just as many, if not more women crying "Burn! Burn!!" if not men.

No, I think no one could ever make a claim that societal misogyny has been as bad in this country as systemic endemic racism.

The rest of the world? That's entirely another story.

Sorry Rove. Lost that particular vital piece of campaign positioning.

Both racism and sexism should be eradicated worldwide. As we are all able.

Starting at home, with what we teach our kids, by our own example. Not by just what we say.

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» It isn't a horse race Posted by: sweet_byrd
» Uhm, and don't forget... Posted by: MartianBachelor
Sick of this
Posted by: DaBear on Jan 17, 2008 10:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Herbert writes what we are all already well aware of and does it in a percussive, flash-cut blast so we are so bowled over we can't see straight (so we'll just go with his conclusion and bow and scrape to his grand observation).

When I read such pieces, I feel wholly frustrated to the point of deep anger becuase I'm really feeling the need for a more nuanced and deeper critique, like the kind of I get from Jensen, Valenti, Martin, et al. Other writers don't just barrage and overwhelm in lieu of honest critique--or when they do they know it and remedy that in short order.

All Herbert's piece made me think is, misogyny and misandry go hand-in-hand. I can't speak to female identity—for that, I do my best to listen to what women say across the sex-gender continuum. As a male, I KNOW most male misbehavior comes from a self-loathing and a distance from one's identity as a human being, let alone being a 21st century male in Kaptialist-on-crack America. In the vacuum of an conflicted male-identity (competing feminist and essentialist versions of what a male is are very vocal to an extreme, in keeping with classic Kapitalista cult-delivery systems) it's too easy for a lot of guys to behave misogynistically and not even realize it or to do so despite that nagging feeling during such behavior that, 'this can't be right, can it?'. That's a really really bad bad situation and Herbert's barrage of horrific male-beast flash-cuts is made possible because of it.

If our "critical" discussion is limited to the question of who's getting beat-on worse, we're getting nowhere. We'll never arrive at a solution pissing on the deck to see how yellow it'll turn. Herbert's barrage does nothing to move towards a solution. We already know how bad things have gotten. Where do we go from here and how do we do it without killing each other or causing more harm to each other?

We who "get" this kind of thing should remember too that we're a minority in a very large population of religious fundamentalism, of which misogyny is a core tenet.

I was stunned listening to Bill Moyers' Journal with James Cone taking about "the cross and the lynching tree." Our national pasttime is all about externalizing pain and Othering each other, with zeal. That takes on classist, misognist, misandrian and racist forms across the board. Maybe Cone's hpothesis is where we start to get past the Herbertian shock-factor and grow into some solutionizing.

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» RE: Sick of this Posted by: Lauren
Breaking News: Old Boys Club Jubilant, Progressives Waste Time Fighting Eachother Over Oppression
Posted by: felixcommi on Jan 17, 2008 11:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Creating a taxonomy of oppressions is not productive. You know in Tort Law they have pie charts for how much each part of an injured body is worth. Some folks appear to desire a similar point system to calculate their oppression and challenge the highest claimant for counterproductive moral outrage.

The reality of oppression is that it is eminently variable based on race, gender, class, etc. No oppression for two people are identical. Rosa Parks and MLK certainly experienced oppression differently. So to do Hillary and single minimum-wage earning mothers.

What is the noble characteristic of the oppressed or the privileged who sympathesize and ally with the oppressed? I would argue it is a basic desire to recognize and confront oppression, even if it means looking one's own privilege and personal moral complacency or culpability in the face.

I am a white, middle-class, male in Law school. My privilege is immense. But I aspire that my sensitivities and motivations for just conduct are more immense.

For instance, some men in here need to pause for a moment and reflect on how abusive pornography effects real social relations between the sexes. Men may spend countless hours watching these violent or degrading materials and their entire worldview on women will be shaped by this the same way an individual watching Gloria Steinem speeches would have their views of appropriate and fair social relations with women shaped differently.

Racial and gender oppression both emanate from common and interconnected capitalist, racist, patriarchal forces. Racism and sexism should not be competing against each other, but against the actual source of harm.

A little empathy and intellectual endeavour never hurt anyone...except the Old Boys Club.

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» RE: Breaking News: Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Breaking News: Posted by: single-serving poster
» Duplicity. Posted by: aka_bozo
Exaggerations Don't Help Your Argument
Posted by: dockboy on Jan 17, 2008 11:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To say misogyny is our true national pastime doesn't help this argument. For starters, it's BS. Are we to believe every man in the country wakes up every morning wondering, "What can I do today to dengrate and further my and other men's hatred of women?" Of course we don't.

Is there a problem? Yes, but there are always problems, and in different forms. Like many, I work in a corporate office that is typical, in that politics is unfortunately in play much of the time. I don't think it's as bad here as in other places I've worked before, but politics does occur.

However, I will say that I've seen women be just as, if not more, "oppressive" to other women as men. So would Bob say these women are mysogynists? Or can you only be a mysogynist if you're a man? If so, does that let these women off the hook, for how they treat their fellow women? Is it okay for a woman to oppress women?

The fact is, discrimination happens across all boundaries. To make exagerations like this, that mysogyny is our favorite pastime is silly. It's counter-productive. It's a lie. The problem of discrimination is not helped by this article.

Oh, and one more thing. From the title of this article, are we to really believe discrimination and "oppression" only occur in America?

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» Spot on Posted by: kepstein7777
The arrival of the Rovebots PROVES that misogyny, right now, will not lose us the election
Posted by: xbj on Jan 17, 2008 12:30 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And they're all over the place, and they overwhelmingly prove my point.

Folks, it's simple; we ain't gonna lost the election over misogyny against Hillary, who our "women" "bots" tell us "everyone" hates and they won't vote for her under any condition, nor our "male" bots posting that there is far more misogyny in the US throughout history than there has been racism and doing everything THEY can to keep the disinfo going.

We will, however, lose the election over systemic endemic racism. Something those bots are trying mighty hard to refute.

Now, you have to ask yourself, why would so many Rovebots want so hard for us to think Hillary is unelectable and Obama is not?

Why would all the GOP pundits fawn over Obama (even FOX!!!) and still revile Hillary?

Do you see any sort of strategy possibly in all this?

Ask yourself these questions. Hard. The future of the world hinges on the answer you come up with, for yourself.

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The Embracing of The Feminine (Capital "F") in All of US...
Posted by: drricklippin on Jan 17, 2008 1:48 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..... may very well be our nation's and world's last best hope.

Thanks Bob Herbert - You are correct!

While sexism has taken on too much importance in the presidential campaign it has re-stimulated a dialogue that needs to take place in this nation until we get it right!

Here is a speech I gave on women in the workplace From Stress to Strength

Thanks,

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com

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GEORGE BUSH APPOINTED JUDGE HANDS NEVADA TO OBAMA; ELECTION TO GOP. It's all over.
Posted by: xbj on Jan 17, 2008 2:54 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You heard it first right here, folks. The FEDERAL judge, appointed by GEORGE BUSH in 2001, declares that all workers in Nevada DO NOT DESERVE A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. Culinary workers, whose union supports Obama, will not have to leave their workplaces where they will be inttimidated by the union, their peers and coworkers, and even Casino management into voting for Obama, while EVERY OTHER WORKER IN NEVADA WILL HAVE TO TAKE OFF WORK for up to two hours. Killing attendance at other locations.

This hands the caucus to Obama, and unless Hillary by some miracle chooses to stay in the race against all possible odds, our next President will absolutely be GOPNazi and we will be nuking Iran within a year of whoever he is being in office, if Bush hasn't already before.

Congratulations. Kudos to the Rove team for so brilliantly dirty tricking their "can't win" candidate to lose opposite the GOP.

Team Rove/Bush/Obama:

Federal Judge James C. Mahan
Born 1943 in El Paso, TX

Federal Judicial Service:
Judge, U. S. District Court, District of Nevada
Nominated by George W. Bush on September 10, 2001, to a new seat created by 114 Stat. 2762;

Congratulations also to all the paid kids and Rove shills working the ObamaNaderRove campaign who think this was such a big fucking game and will never even give a single thought as to WHY a George Bush judge would favor Obama's campaign so highly.

Mark my words and remember: You WILL have the blood of millions on your hands.

You WILL remember me in Hell. And how hard I tried to save your sorry ass from your so very justifed yet so casually earned fate.

I was DEAD RIGHT about George Bush in 2000, and my posts are still on usenet to prove it. Barring some sort of God-given Hillary miracle here in Nevada or if by some miracle she continues, I will be DEAD RIGHT about BarackNaderObamaRoveBush.

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» You've got to be kidding me Posted by: jnelson4765
Oh, you men are just so very bad!
Posted by: logansafi on Jan 17, 2008 3:16 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's getting to be like going to church when I log onto the alternet site. I mean with all the constant sermons against male sins we get to read here. Is this the most poltically correct site or what?

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» RE: Oh, you men are just so very bad! Posted by: MartianBachelor
Pavlov's Bell
Posted by: PaulK on Jan 17, 2008 4:18 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"There the women have to respond like Pavlov's dog to an electronic bell that might ring at any hour of the day or night. At the sound of the bell, the prostitutes have five minutes to get to an assembly area where they line up, virtually naked, and submit to a humiliating inspection by any prospective customer who has happened to drop by."

This sounds almost like boys' high school gym class. A cold gym and dinky little shorts. Like the junior version of the draft (for which I got a high draft number).

Not that women (or certain high school boys for that matter) aren't brutally mistreated in many ways in this world. I'm just observing that sometimes other groups don't have rights either.

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Hmm
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Jan 17, 2008 5:25 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, I suppose in your dark, tormented world, men are all just crouching in the shadows or sitting in darkened bars plotting how to make women miserable.

I suggest that you join the real world, instead of using hate of men as a crutch, and look at just how good women really have it, both compared to men nowadays and compared to anyone in the past.

But that doesn't fit the agenda, does it? Even if society reaches the point where men go around with collars on their necks and leashes up their behinds, doing nothing but working to serve the feminist bottom line 24/7, we'll still be a society of downtrodden women and misogynists, won't we?

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Misogyny and Racism are Problems but they are Overblown
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Jan 17, 2008 5:58 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Misogyny and Racism are still problems in modern America but I think they are incredibly overblown.

Misogyny is defined as hostility or hatred of women. Many of the things Bob Herbert talked about in his article are not misogynistic (pornography and prostitution).


Violence against non-consenting adults is the fundamental problem, not misogyny, not racism.

I could care less what other people think as long as they don't physically harm anyone or their property without their consent.

The use of force against others is the real issue that should be focused on, not aspects of it that are encouraged by some people's beliefs about women or ethnicities other than their own.

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SO MUCH COMMENT; SO QUICKLY; HOW INTERESTING.
Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Jan 17, 2008 6:47 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women's issues are much underestimated. Jimmy Carter knew when he forced a vote on the equal rights amendment that the issue would lose. But he wanted the issue before the public. I have long felt that he was right to send the message.

I might suppose that it would send the message to women that the handles of government weren't in their hands. They knew that. But when the test was run, the suspicions were confirmed.

I have been afraid that jealousy would doom a female candidate. The wimp male vote will result in a male vote against a strong woman. Combine that with female jealousy and you have a losing combination.

But, if the women would turn out as they did in New Hampshire a woman would have a chance. A heavy block vote from women and blacks would carry any election. It appears that women and blacks will vote for Obama. It is possible that an Obama-Hillary or a Hillary-Obama ticket could win.

The south is going to vote republican for purely racist reasons. Seven years of right wing government has increased the size of the KKK by 40 percent. This is not lost on the racist red-neck south.

We need a National Initative Petition Law. It needs to contain the ability within it to both make statute law and constitional law. Then women's rights could be put before the electorate.

Have you ever noticed how the persons in power don't really want anything put up to a vote. They don't want to give up power to us. The issue will have to be pressed. We need a Ghandi or a Martin Luther King.

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» and again, Posted by: sweet_byrd
» RE: and again, YOU ARE NOT WRONG Posted by: Raymond Emerson
The real problem is bullying
Posted by: Bobsays on Jan 18, 2008 12:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And until people relate to each other without resorting to money and power as tools to get their way, then we will not see improvement. Women, now that they are fully immersed in the mainstream economy, use money and power to get their way. Their behaviour is no better than men.

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Hypocrites
Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Jan 18, 2008 12:42 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I enjoyed reading this article beacuse it addresses an issue that gets scant attention by the media.
Until women and girls are treated better in the United States, we're never going to have the kind of society where the female sex is always behind the 8-ball. We act like a bunch of hypocrites when we say life is good (for women0 but in reality it isn't.
This past week in Los Angeles a man killed his ex-wife and mother in Tujunga then committed suicide by jumping off a bridge only because he had a gripe and resorted to violence to solve his problem. And for that reason two people died.
Oh well, life has to go on. We'll continue to carry on in our violent matter.

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"gender issues are suddenly in the news!"
Posted by: brucerise on Jan 20, 2008 6:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a Bismarck native, a lesbian and I am very much an ordinary citizen. My family consists of my partner Lisa, our 4-year-old daughter and me. We work, pay our taxes and go to church just like any other family. Lisa works full-time, I go to school full-time and stay home with our daughter. We think it's important that she have a stable home life. Three days a week our daughter goes to a preschool that is funded by a mainstream religious denomination. It's interesting that they can accept us as "ordinary," but Smith, who has never met us, cannot.

We are GBLT. We're ordinary, too
Bi,Gay,Lesbian
http://www.findbilover.com

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