REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE  
MSNBC / By Rachel Maddow
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 223

Rachel Maddow: Right-Wing Terrorism Must Be Stopped

The tactics of anti-choice extremists are designed to change policy by terrorizing Americans. How do we stop them from committing violent acts?
June 8, 2009  |  
 
 
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Editor's Note: The following is an edited version of a transcript from the Rachel Maddow Show.

We begin tonight with another deadly act of domestic terrorism. The first time a doctor was murdered by the modern anti-abortion terrorist movement in America was March 1993.  Anti-abortion demonstrators were protesting at a clinic in Pensacola, Florida.  As Dr. David Gunn arrived at a clinic, a young man named Michael Griffin shot Dr. Gunn several times in the chest with a snub-nose .38 revolver.

Michael Griffin, the killer, became a cause celebre among anti-abortion extremists.  He was associated with the group called Rescue America, which said after Griffin killed Dr. Gunn that while they did not condone the killing, they didn‘t condemn it either.

Five months after Dr. David Gunn was killed, another doctor, George Tiller—yes, the same Dr. Tiller from today‘s headlines—was shot by a woman named Shelly Shannon.  Shannon had written letters of support for Michael Griffin, who killed Dr. David Gunn.  She called him a hero.

In 1992 and 1993, Shelly Shannon set fires and used acid to attack at least 10 abortion clinics in Oregon, California, Idaho and Nevada.  In 1993, she went to Wichita, Kansas, and used a semiautomatic pistol to shoot Dr. George Tiller in each of his arms outside the clinic at which he worked.

While she was in prison, Ms. Shannon signed on to a pledge of support for Paul Hill, the murderer of yet another American doctor.  In June 1994, Paul Hill shot to death Dr. George Britton and a 74-year-old clinic escort named James Barrett, and he seriously wounded Mr. Barrett‘s wife.

Six months later, a man named John Salvi walked into two clinics in Brookline, Massachusetts, and killed two receptionists and wounded five other people.  In January 1998, yet another murder—security guard Robert Sanderson was killed and a nurse named Emily Lyons was critically injured by a nail bomb that exploded at an Alabama abortion clinic at which they worked.  That bomb was planted by a man named Eric Rudolph.

Eric Rudolph had also bombed another abortion clinic and a gay bar in Atlanta the year before and he had famously bombed the Atlanta Olympics the year before that, killing Alice Hawthorne and wounding 111 other people.  The Atlanta Olympics bombing was a terrorist act committed by an anti-abortion extremist.

In October 1998, another murder—in Amherst, New York, Dr. Barnett Slepian was standing inside his house when James Kopp shot and killed him with a sniper rifle.  Kopp was a member of an anti-abortion extremist group that calls itself the Lambs of Christ.

And [last Sunday], George Tiller was shot again.  This time, it was inside his church in Wichita.  He was killed instantly.  A man named Scott Roeder is the suspect in custody in this case.  He‘s known in extremist anti-abortion circles.  He has had writings published in a newsletter called “Prayer and Action News,” which promotes the idea of killing people who provide abortion services as justifiable homicide.

Someone calling himself Scott Roeder had participated in anti-abortion discussion at a Web site of the group called Operation Rescue.  The group‘s founder, Randal Terry, spoke at the National Press Club today and celebrated Dr. George Tiller‘s death.

RANDALL TERRY, FOUNDER, OPERATION RESCUE:  I stand before you today saying about George Tiller what I said in his life.  He was a mass murderer.  George Tiller was a mass murderer.  He killed tens of thousands of innocent human beings at his own hand.  George Tiller was a murderer and he was doing something that was literally demonic.

RACHEL MADDOW:  Another anti-abortion extremist group, Operation Save America, also put out a statement celebrating George Tiller‘s murder today, saying, quote, “He is now vowing before Jesus and confessing that Jesus is right and that he, George Tiller, was wrong.”

If you go to the Web site of the Army of God, you will find hagiographic websites for anti-abortion terrorist movement heroes, like Paul Hill and Eric Rudolph and Shelly Shannon.  You can actually scroll through pages and pages of mug shots and descriptions of bombings and shootings and murders and attempted murders—all praising the perpetrators, and even suggesting ways to get away with the same types of crimes that these people committed but you could do it without getting caught.


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Before Reagan
[Report this comment]
Posted by: pelican beak on Jun 8, 2009 1:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recall that before the Reagan administration, the certainty that a human life begins at conception was not a common belief - and didn't have a militant air to it. Then I began running into folks who couldn't believe a person knowing anything wouldn't believe that. Clearly, a concerted effort to spread that belief had been at work, through circles I didn't live in.

I know that people with authoritative voices have been repeating the opposite over and over, but the scripture is not clear and consistent on when a human life begins. Those who are positively certain the Bible says so likely carry that belief as a product of a concerted manipulative propaganda campaign through churches, begun in earnest about 30 years ago.

Those who use that belief to fabricate excuses not to follow Jesus' very clearly stated instructions how to get to heaven, or exceptions to His instructions, are fooling themselves into damning their soul.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: The Morning Joe folks just said Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Listening to Joe Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: a pagan god? Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: a pagan god? Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: Before Reagan Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
» RE: Before Reagan Posted by: manyu
» amazing Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Long Before Reagan Posted by: Cybershaman
» Late Term abortions Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Late Term abortions Posted by: cmaciain
» Great logic Posted by: truthlover
» Reductio ad absurdum Posted by: pelican beak
» That's just absurd Posted by: truthlover
» RE: That's just absurd Posted by: pelican beak
» By the way, truthlover - Posted by: pelican beak
» Hello? truthlover, hello? Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Great logic Posted by: Seranvali
» RE: Late Term abortions Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Late Term abortions Posted by: Seranvali
» Oh, I'm plenty mad. Disgusted too. Posted by: godsbreath64
» RE: Before Reagan Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Before Reagan Posted by: Seranvali
» RE: Before Reagan Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Before Reagan Posted by: Seranvali

Comments are closed-

just pointing out a typographical mistake... a great interview.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: emccready on Jun 8, 2009 1:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"And in this case, we were wrong. We were wrong more really. We were wrong politically."

The man was saying We were wrong MORALLY.

And he is right! The immorality of Bill Reilly and some of the other talking bobbleheads on Faux news is sickening... and most of them would profess to be Christians no doubt. Jesus would hang his head in shame to have such things done in his name and would throw these Pharisees out of the Media Temple and disassociate himself with them altogether.

What goes around comes around and I feel sure that given Karma that these people will get theirs one way or another, if not in this world, in the next. Shame on them all!

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» RE: wrong 'more really' = MORALLY Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: We know you are a Bush troll Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» That's because you're a nutter. Posted by: GuitarBill

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Confiscate their guns
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Perry Logan on Jun 8, 2009 3:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's time to repeal the Second Amendment, which is a complete anachronism, and confiscate the guns.

I, for one, am looking forward to it. :)

The courts have affirmed over and over that there is no individual right to bear arms, but the gun guys simply ignore this, because it isn't what they want to hear.

Despite endless repetitions of the meme, the Second Amendment was not put in place to give individuals the right to bear arms, as the gun-lovers claim. It was put there so the slave-owners could form militias to control their slaves. Far from symbolizing individual freedom, guns represent slavery.

This has been historically confirmed, and of course, the gun guys ignore this, too. Are we beginning to see a pattern?

Since there is no such right, it should be relatively easy to take it away. When a "right" which was imkaginary in the first place kills thousands of people every year and costs every American $500 per year, that right needs to be taken away.

The example of post-Katrina New Orleans makes it clear: when gun proponents get together, they don't defend anyone's rights. They go out and shoot unarmed black people. Some things never change.

With this dismal record, why should we keep putting ourselves at risk and shelling out $500 a year to support their habit?

Sorry fellas, but your rights end when they start impinging on the rights of others.

I won't even mention school and church shootings, or the fact that the American Nazi Part is enthusiastically pro-gun, as are America's Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, Klansmen, racists, anti-Semites, militiamen, homophobes, religious loonies, cop-haters, psychopaths, sociopaths, career criminals, serial killers, gun lobbyists, and domestic terrorists.

It's a white-guy thing. The power of the gun lobby notwithstanding, poll after poll reveals that most Amewicans want fewer guns and more gun control.

Let's face it: gun guys are mostly white males who have proven themselves to be complete screw-ups. Gun proponents obviously don't give a fig about you or me or our children or the Constitution or anything. They're just scared sh*tless we're going to take away their toys.

The pro-gun people were full of sh*t from the get-go. They said guns would protect us from a tyrannical government--but where were the gun guys when George W. Bush was shredding the Constitution? Sitting around polishing their barrels, no doubt.

We could invite them to emigrate to another county, except that no decent country would let them keep their guns. Tough situation.


Swine

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» As the bumper sticker says... Posted by: colinmeister
» RE: Good call! Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Confiscate their guns Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
» RE: It is not going to happen Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Confiscate their guns Posted by: Seranvali
» RE: Confiscate their guns Posted by: manyu
» RE: zero credibility Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Confiscate their guns Posted by: brunowe
» 100% correct, great job. Posted by: Prophit
» You nailed it, Perry. Posted by: GuitarBill
» Way off Posted by: brunowe
» RE: You nailed it, Perry. Posted by: uncleeddie
» RE: Confiscate their guns Posted by: uncleeddie

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Otto
[Report this comment]
Posted by: otto on Jun 8, 2009 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's become the American way. We have been exporting and sponsoring terrorism for years, including Reagan's "Freedom Fighters" in Nicaragua, the killers of Romero in El Salvador, and all kinds of thigns taught at "The School of the Americas" in the U.S.

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» RE: Otto Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
» RE: Otto Posted by: otto
» RE: Otto Posted by: 1cclady

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LOL
[Report this comment]
Posted by: AdamDunny on Jun 8, 2009 5:37 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OMgosh you have GOT to be kidding me. People are takign this terrorist nonsense WAY too seriously!

RT
Online Privacy when it Counts

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Why are you suprised? These fools did this to Black People for 100 years.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: fred_53_99 on Jun 8, 2009 5:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who is uprised at these home grown terror groups needs to look at the history of terror against Black Americans from 1865 until say 1965. The violence wasn't always a lynch mob although that could and did happen at any time. It was the constant acts of terror: bombings, shootings, assults,rape, kidnap and destruction of properity.Some of it was done to keep blacks from voting, some to remind blacks they were lesser beings , perhaps not human. These violent antiabortion folks are many of the same folks that had no problem doing these mean thing to Black folks. The violence thing does work: you don't convience people to change , you just force your opnion on them . Funny thing Jesus never forced anyone to do anything, he gave examples of how he was right and then he just asked one to accept it.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» Warning us about trolls? Posted by: outsideagitator
» She is the greatest commentator Posted by: outsideagitator
» So right you are, that stooge probably Posted by: outsideagitator

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Guns and Military suicides
[Report this comment]
Posted by: underledge on Jun 8, 2009 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just a thought regarding guns - Thirty years or so American’s attitudes began changing on guns and violence in general. Unisex toys evolved removing and labeling many violence provoking boy’s toys as inappropriate. Generally speaking, up until this time, one grew up with two distinct lines of toys - those for boys and those for girls. Playing Cops and Robbers, Cowboys and Indians went the way-side. Games evolved where no one lost and undue pressure would be avoided.

I can’t help but wonder what connection this change in attitudes has with problems in our military with mental stress and suicides. The bottom line of all military training is to kill or support the ability to kill another human being. It has to be traumatic to actually pull the trigger and see someone die at your hand or know that from a distance you were responsible for the deaths and injuries of countless people. Perhaps an inner city gang member might feel no remorse but growing up in a society where the actual sight of a real dead or dying person was something you had been sheltered from your entire life, has to have a serious affect on one.

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» RE: Traumatic or fun Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: High suicide rates Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: High suicide rates Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: It has always been a problem Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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Homegrown terror......
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jun 8, 2009 6:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I understand that there are differing views about abortion, these killings are designed to intimidate the doctors performing legal and safe services to women! The bible that these people speak of but are obviously not reading have more instructions on love and loving others - the blind, closed minded religion that these people believe in, stagnates their minds and allows for no opposition. These people are domestic terrorists and murderers and their acts should render them jailed for life!

These good bible thumpers, their care and concern is only in the womb! Where are these people for adoption, foster care, lower cost daycare for women that are working low wage jobs? These are some of the same people that don't want contraceptives, or condoms, or sex education taught in the schools! Their closed minds don't allow enough air or light to circulate in their brains or their hearts, maybe if they did, they would stop perpetrating these acts of terror!

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» RE: They are terrorists Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Homegrown terror...... Posted by: yolanda
» RE: Homegrown terror......Spirit Girl Posted by: wagnerrocks@gmail.com

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poison
[Report this comment]
Posted by: freshlemon on Jun 8, 2009 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you feel better now that you have poured a little poisonous negativity on one of the few journalists who searches for truth in reporting? Pat yourself on the back as you say,"I'm ignorant and proud of it."

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Where is HOMELAND SECURITY----
[Report this comment]
Posted by: mcyclemama on Jun 8, 2009 6:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and why aren't they jumping on these anti-abortion nut jobs with all the weight of the power they claim to have? This is, after all, domestic terrorism!
kate

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pro-lifers need to become secular: the Bible supports abortion rights
[Report this comment]
Posted by: vasumurti on Jun 8, 2009 7:17 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Genesis 38:24. Tamar's pregnancy was discovered three months after conception, presumably because it was visible at the time. This was positive proof that she was sexually active. Because she was a widow, without a husband, she was assumed to be a prostitute. Her father-in-law, Judah, ordered that she be burned alive for her crime. If Tamar's fetuses had been considered to have any value whatsoever, her execution would have been delayed until after their birth. There was no condemnation on Judah for deciding to take this action.

Exodus 21:22-24. If two men are fighting and one injures a pregnant woman and the fetus is killed, he shall repay her according to the degree of injury inflicted upon her, and not the fetus.

Author Brian McKinley, a born-again Christian, comments:

"Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence-it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death."

Halacha (Jewish Law) does define when a fetus becomes a nephesh (person), a full-fledged human being, when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a "partial-life". The fetus has great value because it is potentially a human life, it gains full human status after birth only.

Abortions are not permitted on the grounds of genetic imperfections of the fetus. Abortions are permitted to save the mother's life or health. With the exception of some Orthodox authorities, Judaism supports abortion access for women. Each case must be decided individually by a rabbi well-versed in Jewish law.

The Babylonian Talmud (Yevamot 69b) states that: "the embryo is considered to be mere water until the fortieth day." Afterwards, it is considered subhuman until it is born. Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and the Talmud, states clearly of the fetus 'lav nephesh hu--it is not a person.' The Talmud contains the expression, "the thigh of its mother," i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body.

This is grounded in Exodus 21:22. That biblical passage outlines the Mosaic Law in a case where a man is responsible for causing a woman's miscarriage, which kills the fetus. If the woman survives, then the perpetrator has to pay a fine to the woman's husband. If the woman is killed, the perpetrator is also killed. This indicates that the fetus has value, but does not have the status of a person.

There are two additional passages in the Talmud which shed some light on abortion. They imply that the fetus is considered part of its mother: One section states that if a man purchases a cow that is found to be pregnant, then he is owner of both the cow and the fetus. Another section states that if a pregnant woman converts to Judaism, that her conversion also applies to her fetus.

Some Jewish authorities have ruled in specific cases. one case involved a woman who becomes pregnant while nursing a child. Her milk supply would dry up. If the child is allergic to all other forms of nutrition except mother's milk, then it would starve. An abortion would be permitted in this case, a potential person, would be justified to save the life of the child, an actual person.

Conservative, Reconstructionist and Reform Judaism are formally opposed to government regulation of abortion. They feel that the decision should rest with the woman, her husband, her doctor and her clergyperson. Some Orthodox authorities agree with this stance. Polls have found up to 90% of American Jews supporting abortion rights.

The New Testament is more permissive than the Old. Paul claims Jesus told him three times, "my grace is sufficient for thee" (II Corinthians 12:8-9), and Christians misinterpret this to mean they're free to do as they wish--ignoring Jesus' teachings and Paul's other teachings altogether.

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David Gunn
[Report this comment]
Posted by: manyu on Jun 8, 2009 7:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
David Gunn is buried about six miles where I live. His family still live here. They asked government to look into and crack down on this form of domestic terrorism soon after David Gunn's death. On the day he was buried, the weather was below 20,but there was still a good turn out for it. Unfortunately I couldn't even get out of my driveway to attend.
Clinton passed FACE soon after, but the local authorities and FBI been refusing to enforce it during the Bush years.

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Pro-Life Ads alongside this article? Really??
[Report this comment]
Posted by: norsegirl on Jun 8, 2009 7:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are we really that greedy for ad revenue? This is simply obscene.

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The evolution of the definition of 'terrorism'
[Report this comment]
Posted by: JDrozz on Jun 8, 2009 8:21 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Rachel Maddow was brought onto MSNBC last year, I was pleased. I had listened to her on Air America for a couple of years prior and found her approach to be refreshing and succinct, albeit from a distinct "left" perspective. I have noticed that she (and Keith for that matter) have somewhat become mouthpieces for the Obama Administration and her readiness to question authority has diminished.

First when she/Keith began to label the "Tea Parties" as 'Teabagging', I questioned their motives. Now - with Maddow labeling murderers as "terrorists" I think that she has gone too far. The anti-abortion murderers should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and their actions are absolutely horrorific. But they are not terrorists. The continuing evolution of what a terrorists is has been turned in upon American citizens at an alarming rate. The recently issued Missouri Information Analysis Center report (MIAC) that labeled American Citizens who support Ron Paul, Bob Barr, and Chuck Baldwin as potential terrorists. Americans who have bumper stickers that question the Federal Reserve are now potential terrorists. This is too much for me. Rachel Maddow is now lumping in anti-abortion groups or supporters into the same 'terrorist' field.

I think that the time has come to really question what is going on here. Who are the true terrorists? Have we been fighting phantom terrorists all along? We definitely need to look to our past to understand where we are going as a nation. It is time to find out what really happened on 911. 9/11 was used to justify two illegal wars and was the vehicle of fear to push this whole 'terrorist' machine forward. We need to then question why Americans have lost so many of their Constitutionally-appointed freedoms since 911 and why the definition of 'terrorism' has changed to now include so many Americans, who, for the most part, are simply Freedom-loving and peaceful citizens of a country they love. We have been lied to by our "leaders" and the subservient media for far too long. This has all happened before - in 1930's Nazi Germany. I for one, want to live my life with eyes open - love my brothers and sisters, live in freedom and under a system of justice that will try and convict anyone guilty of a crime. Unfortunately I don't think that we live in a country like this anymore and it is up to put the US back on a path of liberty. We must start by moving past the "left" vs. "right" mentality - because they are simply the same thing, with minor changes to produce a artificial tension between Americans.

Rachel Maddow is perpetuating a myth from the "left" perspective just as Rush Limbaugh perpetuates a myth from the "right", and We The People need to open our eyes and demand answers to questions of monumental importance. Our future depends upon it.

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» RE: JDrozz, read the acticle! Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: It looks like terrorism to me Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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Rachel Maddow - Americas bravest reporter!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ghoulman on Jun 8, 2009 8:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is incredibly brave of Rachel Maddow to do. What a set this girl has! Ovaries of steel!

The gutless media wouldn't dare do what Rachel has done here, taken on the right-wing hate speech in the face of a movement that needs little excuse to target her. The fact that Rachel Maddow has given us a comprehensive look at the realities of the extremism that comes from the Pro-Life leaders, and the effects of their political rhetoric, is by far the most informative and comprehensive report on this issue... period.

Bravo Rachel Maddow. You're the bravest reporter in America!

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» RE: I don't know about bravest Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: I vote for Alex Jones Posted by: ron heringhauser

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This article and its title ENDORSE RIGHT-WING PROPAGANDA
[Report this comment]
Posted by: truthlover on Jun 8, 2009 9:24 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is this discussion framed in terms of "the war on terror" and "terrorism"?

This was a crime.

It was murder.

Calling it "terrorism" only buys into the hysteria of slapping "terrorism" on any violent act, any vandalism, or even any protest.

When you label crime and dissent "terrorism" you are aiding and abetting the destruction of our liberties, and you are encouraging the concept of thought crime.

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skijo
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ski on Jun 8, 2009 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How do we stop them? Pretty simple. They are terrorists. Employ the Patriot Act against them. Tap their phones, intercept their emails, put surveillance on their every move. Don't allow them on airline flights. Put them in Gitmo with the other terrorists.

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» RE: skijo Posted by: willymack
» RE: skijo Posted by: madcat007

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DR. TILLER DID A 10 YEAR OLD WHO DID NOT KNOW WHAT HAD
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Jun 8, 2009 10:29 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
happened. Yes, it was a late term abortion. Should the radical right have the right to require that ten year olds have babies? The radical right has had other strange effects.

When a baby dies in the uterus an abortion is illegal. The mother is forced to have the baby. They do force the labor. It gets gooffier and goofier.

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Anti-abortion people are self-destructive...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Dak on Jun 8, 2009 11:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I ge quite amused listening to these rabid anti-abortionists ranting about saving lives and then supporting killing people.
Sounds to me like they themselves were legitimate
cases for abortion. Darn!!!
Dakotahgeo

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Targeting wrong people
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Posted by: xmvince on Jun 8, 2009 11:38 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If they really feel that strongly that they need to commit some violent act then they are targeting the wrong people.

Instead they should go after government officials.

Again, their acts are not even close to justified and murder is very wrong, but targeting doctors is just dumb as the doctors are just carrying out their jobs.

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» RE: Targeting wrong people Posted by: orwellturns

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Strongest argument in favor of abortion
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Jun 8, 2009 1:38 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just think if Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, wolfowitz, Abrams, Greenspan, Paulson, Gingrich, O'Reilly, Coulter, Hannity, Murdoch, Rove, Limbaugh and countless others had been aborted during any trimester. Would the world today be a better place to occupy? Mine would!

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"The Handmaid's Tale" becoming a reality
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Posted by: frantic1971 on Jun 8, 2009 2:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For those who are interested, I suggest checking out a 1990 movie called "The Handmaid's Tale", based on a book of the same name. It starred Robert Duvall and Faye Dunaway, among others. It is a frightening view of what America would be like if these pro-life (sic) terrorists would win.

Looking back, it's amazing that a movie like this was ever made.

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Oh, please!
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Posted by: jennymac on Jun 8, 2009 2:55 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wire was not made for killing. Guns have one purpose only - to maim or kill, period. Sheesh! What a predictable response! Besides, this article is more about choice, not gun control.

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Extremists use "God's Mistake" Blasphemy to justify slavery
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Posted by: GPFrank on Jun 8, 2009 4:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Blasphemy is slander against the Deity as commonly understood. But if the end justifies the means slander against anything or anybody is appropriate.

The present radicalism to prevent abortion or women's choice is part of a
movement to re-institute slavery, pure and simple. The object is to enslave women, though the movement
would also be very happy to enslave Blacks and Native Americans if that were politically possible.
In regard to marriage and reproduction the movement would actually consider the
kind of regime as the Latter Day Saints colony in Texas, as ideal.
But there are also included a minority among females believe in the institution of
"kept" women. "Innocent fertilized eggs" be dammed. They have given away their true
motive in the new attacks on birth control and condoms. But they are succeeding
in intimidating some women in the face of the terror and propaganda that
includes falsified medical data.
They have taken one of the versions of creation of humanity
in Genesis ch 2:7as God's mistake, so God did it over again to create the wholly human.
( If that is not Blasphemy then I don't know the meaning of the word. )Instead of regarding the soil of the earth that gives everything life as blessed they spew hatred against that very thing along with whom they say came from it.
They believe slavery is part of the natural human condition. They believe the proper use of free speech is to bring about slavery over those "less than human".

Frank Lornitzo

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Rachel Maddow
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Posted by: pfm on Jun 8, 2009 4:07 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rachel Maddow: Right-Wing Terrorism Must Be Stopped ...MSNBC. Posted June 8, 2009... after reading the article and many of the comments posted I find myself wondering why Ms. Maddow chose to use "buzz" words we define in the moment to serve whatever our immediate need might be..? Terrorism, right-wing, abortion, right to life, man she hit them all in the process whether intended or not America again found itself polarized and unable or unwilling to attempt rational discussion as the connotation of the inflammatory "buzz" words raged within us.

Is there truly no common ground or common language lacking the inflammation of our overused, whimsically defined "buzz" words...?

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» RE: achel Maddow Posted by: orwellturns
» RE: achel Maddow Posted by: Charlow

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Right to life people should support gun control
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Posted by: rmirman on Jun 8, 2009 6:36 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Insist publicly that right to life people are strong supporters gun control. Don't teens also have a right to life? Push them very hard on this.

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Abortion and Scri[pture
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Posted by: Adastra on Jun 8, 2009 9:01 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Okay,all you good Christians out there who follow the Bible and oppose abortion as being against God's commandments, please raise your hands. Thank you. Now, those of you who own a concordance, please take it down and look up the word "abortion". What's that? Couldn't find it? That's right, it isn't in there, not anywhere. And those of you who don't own a concordance, why don't you care what the scripture really says? Such a valuable research tool and it only costs around $20--for shame. Not very committed to our beliefs, are we? I hear it all the time from you guys, "Abortion is murder; the Bible says so." Really? Please show it to me. I'd love to see how the Bible says, "Abortion is murder," without actually using the word, "abortion." The truth is simply that the whole abortion controversy was made up by corrupt politicians and venal preachers who found a new way to get people all stirred up and give more power to their churches and even more to the politicians who reap the only real benefit from this holy scam. It's true the Bible tells us not to murder, but whether abortion is murder is a matter of opinion, not of scripture. And it is very poorly understood scripture too,if we look at Gen. 2:7, which tells us that, "The Lord God formed Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living soul." Amen. In this verse, we see the beginnings of mankind and at that event it took two things to make a man, forming the physical body and bestowing the breath of life. Only after both these things did the man become a living soul. So in God's opinion, a baby becomes a living soul only once he or she is born and takes his or her first breath. As a Christian, I try follow God's opinion in this matter as in all things. The apostle Paul warns us about those who go out "teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. I wonder about the faith of those who claim to follow God, but won't bother to find out what His opinion really is. They would rather follow the sentimental crap that makes them feel "holy"--or rather "holey". They follow the commandments of men rather than the word of God. Well, they have their reward.

With love under will,

Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville

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A Suggested First Step to Counter Domestic Terrorism
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Posted by: jbpazz on Jun 9, 2009 1:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The terrorists take pride in their work. They are true believers. They crave publicity to spread their ideology, to collect funds and to gain recruits. They are expert at media manipulation to achieve their goals. I respect the courage of such organizations as msnbc and individuals as Rachel Maddow and Keith Olberman to expose these violent elements to the US public. Unfortunately, citizen interest will shift to another evil, the TV ratings will fall and the terrorists will continue to prosper. We already see the leftists on AlterNet scatter the blame to their traditional enemies, their pet peeves and their usual villains. They accomplish nothing.
Instead, I suggest readers this site.
At http://www.youtube.com/hatemaking the contributors monitor such terrorist activities as they appear on television. You will find videos that will curl your hair, but it is a small price to pay to fight fear and hatred effectively.

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Everytime the Right Wing Zealots violate our laws, Prosecute Them - Includes Torture Law Violators
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Posted by: JohnHKennedy Denver CO on Jun 9, 2009 6:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Failing to Prosecute The Right Wing Zealots Only Encourages Them.

Prosecute all of their violations, but for the sake of our Rule of Law and Constitution
Start With The Torturers.

SIGN THE PETITION To Prosecute Them For Torture

ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

Over 250,000 have signed
Join them and call yourself a Patriot

.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» RE: abortio Posted by: pjnaltykins

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abortion-waterboarding
[Report this comment]
Posted by: mahalapril on Jun 9, 2009 6:33 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let us not waterboard the 3 islamic fanatics who massacred 3,000 innocent American civilians on 9/11but we are free to abort the boy/girl Rachel Maddow.

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» RE: abortion-waterboarding Posted by: madcat007

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Just a thought
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Posted by: maddy on Jun 9, 2009 8:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think progressives miss a key point when not discussing the kinds of cases that lead to late-term abortions.

Bravo to discuss the "lines" that need to be drawn guaranteeing freedom of speech and assembly v. the need to investigate domestic terrorist groups and the hope to prevent future acts of violence.

And lovely to listen to a former rightie who's seen the light.

But, why not go after the "baby-killer" claim? If that stands without response?

Don't you have to meet that level of irrationality (which is always characterized as "fact" by O'Reilly) by giving *real* details about why late term abortions occur? If we don't respond to that, we confirm O'Reilly's framing that late term abortions are just the selfish murder of a human life. Instead, why not give cases--and they're heart-wrenching ones--of women having no choice because of birth defects, threat to her own life if she goes into labor, or both. I do believe that no matter how uncomfortable some Americans feel about abortion, they will understand the need for the procedure in such cases, and countering with those cases illustrates--in marked contrast--the madness and rage that underpins the right's hyperbole. It would bring a real adult conversation to the table that would do far more to counter O'Reilly et al. than Michael Moore ever could.

In other words, why not actually discuss the procedure itself?

It bothers me when progressives don't actually discuss abortion itself--to me that implies shame and fear as it legitimates the moralistic frames of the right.

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» RE: Just a thought Posted by: Femmy68
» RE: Just a thought Posted by: Seranvali

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Maddow is new Joan of Arc
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Posted by: john2007 on Jun 9, 2009 8:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am so impressed with Rachel Maddow and how honorable and fearless she is becoming in the fight for progressive ideals. I love Kieth Oberman and Chris Matthews but Rachel is the one who demonstrates real nobility. Yeats was wrong when he said, "The best lack of all conviction."

This interview was one of her best and, of course, professor Turley is always good and now this Schaeffer guy coming out of the extremest closet is also very helpful.

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Anti-Abortion Terrorism
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Posted by: lynmarenjensen on Jun 9, 2009 11:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why are anti-abortion extremists not subject to the most extreme anti-terrorism measures our government can use? The answer is simple. It's "just" women and "just" abortion. It's not anything "important" like weapons or oil.

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Remember "eco terrrorists"?
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jun 9, 2009 11:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's the creation of the Bush Administration and Att. General Ashcroft. How many people have been killed by these "eco terrorists", as opposed to the number killed by pro life wachos? In fact, the eco terrorists were one off vandals with little organization, while the pro life nut cases were well organized, clearly identifiable groups. But Bush gave us eco terrorists and supported the Abortion clinic bombers and denied that they were terrorists.

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» Ecoterrrorists Posted by: NickJones
» RE: coterrrorists Posted by: Seranvali

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No difference between this and a suicide bomber
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Posted by: jontan88 on Jun 9, 2009 4:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who say this was simply a "crime" have not understood the word "terrorism" which is to intimidate ("terrorize") people for a purpose - usually religious or nationalistic. Al Queda claims to be doing "God's work" by driving Westerners from Islamic lands. The Taliban claims to be doing "God's work" by imposing its ultra conservative Shariah Law on the people under its control. The pro-life movement claims to be doing "God's work" by "saving" the unborn. When they resort to violence to do "God's work", they become terrorists.

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THINK
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Posted by: IRIQUOIS227 on Jun 10, 2009 7:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, why are Americans such sheep. The follow human waste like the republican party, support them with money that oftentimes is meant for medicine, or worse yet, food. The support these TERRORISTS in much the same way. I'm not suggesting that ALL of them do, but a huge portion of Americans do in the name of God. They follow what they call "murder" WITH MURDER. Whether one or a billion, it's the same damned thing. I guarantee a limp status if i ever see one of these roaches locked to a car or firehyrant, because I will end their lives. They are terrorists of the clearest kind, and that they are allowed to combine and conspire against other people demonstrates once again how inept the government is. These are bugs. low life garbage and should be exterminated as such. The Human approach to these insects should be the same as any, simply kill them. They seem to care more about these buaabiz as the dead bug Jerry Foolwell used to say, from conception to birth, but no concern from birth to death. You see these homeless, mistreated children everywhere. Where are these TERRORISTS THEN? These turds are cowards in the extreme. They are like the republicans who now support them out in the open like Newt Gingrinch and Tom Tancredo, they hide like rats in the night. All for their God. One should understand that doing this for their god is the ONLY reason they do this hateful business. So they can get their wide pale pasty white, and usually male asses into their "heaven." You know, Great mansions, bird wings, an eternal toga party whilst enjoying the bliss of being on their knees for all eternity worshiping their pasty assed white male god. Or god forbid, 70 virgins!!? No thanks. I wonder what would happen if God came down and said with a thunderous voice, "WELL KIDS!, THIS IS IT, THERE'S NO AFTERLIFE, JUST THIS ONE!!" I can hear the wailing now, "all that ridiculous stuff i did thinking I was git in heaven!!! These vermin do these things because they are patently insane, and lost in a tragic long standing lie. An Ancient social control construct. Their lives, like all of our lives are worthless to anyone but ourselves. In the grand scheme of things human beings are worth no more than roaches, or any other form of life. These meatballs think that their angry, jealous, vengeful god had the cajones to create, and from nothing, the grand complex universe we are in? Impossible. How many BILLIONS of people have died over the eons because of religious differences. How many more? George Tiller was just another in a centuries long attempt by these uneducated, unsophisticated anencephalic monsters. Stop the tide of their breath. By any and all means. Kill them. Hunt them down like the vermin they are. Extinguish them. Hang them, gut them. You'll find the earth becomes more peaceful by ever death involving a religious roach.

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Violence Prevention
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Posted by: GZ on Jun 10, 2009 10:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The entire past 30 years has been one long right wing rampage: Nuke 'em!

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» RE: Violence Prevention Posted by: Seranvali

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Again, Stop the Terrorism Rhetoric!
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Posted by: Casadh on Jun 10, 2009 10:58 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please, if you read this, consider this, and discourage the usage of the word "terrorism" in our language. It is a word that demonizes crimes and shifts position according to who is in power and who isn't. If we honestly believe in fairness, we *cannot* only believe in it when we *aren't* in power.

Now that the right-wing are shifting out of power, those of us on the left need to avoid repeating the injustices by the right. They called us left-wingers as traitors, terrorist-sympathizers,and guilty of treason. They loved to call animal rights and environmentalists as "eco-terrorists" (despite that neither have killed people).

Now that the right is falling out of favor, let us NOT treat crimes differently based on the ideological beliefs the individual had.

Murder is murder.

The fact that the murder was done over the issue of abortion does NOT make the murder an act of terrorism.

Let us end the usage of the rhetoric of terrorism. Not only should we object to its usage by our political opponents, but we must also object to its usage by ourselves.

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Terrorism
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Posted by: mikehattan on Jun 10, 2009 2:28 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rhetoric does not kill people. People kill people.

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» RE: Terrorism Posted by: Femmy68

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Judgement
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Posted by: Nightowl on Jun 10, 2009 9:33 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To paraphrase: "Judgement is mine", sayith the Lord.

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Anthony D'Auria
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Posted by: Tony D on Jun 10, 2009 9:42 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This whole thing is just another reminder that we are an insane species. It is only when one accepts this premise that the whole situation becomes reasonable.

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Let's get our priorities straight.
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Posted by: ronniejw on Jun 10, 2009 11:55 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These right wing terrorist would not be able to pull off these attacks if the government wasn’t so busy chasing after non-violent Animal Rights Activist and Environmentalist and claiming, falsely, that they are the terrorist. They are all to busy infiltrating Anti-War and Human Rights Organizations to effectively go after the right wing nut cases. It’s about time this government gets it’s priorities straight.

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Coincidence?
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Posted by: dunivant66 on Jun 11, 2009 2:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Has anybody realized that the man is 88 years; old anti-government; a holocaust denier; has been in prison in the last decade; served on a U-boat in WWII; and writes for the right-wing. Coming back to the main argument; Mr. von Brunn is 88 years old; if you are looking at the age it is not seen as odd; the 88 is actually a symbol of Adolf Hitler. The eighth letter of the alphabet is H, and the second letter is H; put them together it is Hiel Hitler an Aryan mantra. I learned the symbolism from a gangs class that I took. Perhaps there is deeper meaning behind the attack; there will be more attacks; we as citizens have to be aware of the dangers; thank god no children were hurt.

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Go ahead and call me a profiler
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Posted by: LMNOP on Jun 11, 2009 4:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But when I see someone who looks like Larry the Cable Guy coming toward my car holding a Bible or a beer, I lock all my doors.

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Ms New England
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Posted by: Charlow on Jun 11, 2009 9:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are clearly seeing an upsurge of domestic terrorism aimed against us, or at least the majority of us who do not agree with the fringe lunatic organizations that are taking it upon themselves to kill their highest-profile opponents or attack organizations that are bulwarks against the various forms of dangerous extremism.

Add to the list of terrorist incidents -- the bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, the assassination of "liberal" radio talk show host in Denver,Allen Berg,by rabid "white-power" anti-Semites in the 1980s, and yesterday's attack on the Holocaust Museum in Washington.

Freedom of thought and freedom of speech is one thing. Freedom to kill is not one of our core values. These people are trying to take out examples of their most-hated, highest profile individuals and organizations and as with the suicide bombers in the middle east, make themselves into heroic martyrs. I firmly believe that our greatest threats now are not from outside our country, but right here, among us, from individuals who are already known to the law enforcement system and from groups that we have allowed to fester and strengthen themselves while the rest of us have gone on with our normal lives. This must stop.

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sunni
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Posted by: sunni on Jun 12, 2009 3:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
how many of the anti-choice folk have adopted the unwanted children languishing in poorly run orphanges and foster care? where are these concerned citizens when birth mothers drop unwanted children in dumpsters or worse yet just kill them outright or put them in harms way with molesters and sex offenders? these are not child protectors, they are caricatures, the dregs of god's world. no action once the children are born, just looking for their moment of fame while wreaking havoc for families and friends.

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Ms
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Posted by: 1cclady on Jun 13, 2009 9:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find the arjticle to be a summary of the problem. No solution put forward .... or did I miss soemthing?

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What's the difference?
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Posted by: CaliJim on Jun 14, 2009 10:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What’s the difference between the need for Islamic and Muslim moderates and the spokespersons, either official or unofficial, of their mainstream religious/political organizations to denounce the use of hatred and violence in promoting the agendas of their extremist elements and the need for Republican and Christian moderates and the spokespersons, either official or unofficial, of their mainstream religious/political organizations to denounce the use of hatred and violence in promoting the agendas of their extremist elements? NONE.

Failure of the moderate mainstream of all religions and nations to step up to condemn and attempt to restrain their extremist fringe groups from using violence in their disagreements with opponents is one of two things, moral cowardice or implicit support for those actions.

Here are a few quotes from a 2002 speech by George W. Bush that are relevant to the issue:

“…The hatred of a few holds the hopes of many hostage. The forces of extremism and terror are attempting to kill progress and peace by killing the innocent….”

“…There is simply no way to achieve that peace until all parties fight terror. Yet, at this critical moment, if all parties will break with the past and set out on a new path, we can overcome the darkness with the light of hope….”

“…Leaders who want to be included in the peace process must show by their deeds an undivided support for peace….”

Statements by Republican and “Christian” leaders that vilify their opponents, give credence to the concept of secession from the United States, falsify or distort the truth in a way to inflame followers or convey the concept that the violence is somehow justified and approved of by their god (“God sent the killer” and similar sentiments were recently observed following the cowardly and vicious murder of Dr. George Tiller) are actions that are no different than the same actions committed by the Taliban, Al Qaeda and others who act in the same fashion.

I’ve said for years that we are in a cultural war…not between Christians and Muslims, Democrats and Republicans, American citizens and citizens of other nations, but, between the extreme religious/racial based bigotry and total lack of acceptance and tolerance shown by fundamentalists of all types and the scientific/humanist/freedom based tolerance of differences and individual rights that is the basis of all civilization and the core of the values of United States of America.

Those of you who share beliefs with the violent extremists and don’t speak out or take action against their violence are equally culpable – particularly if you have knowledge of illegal activities or plans, but fail to notify the appropriate authorities.

So…what is it? Are you supportive of a United States of America with freedom, liberty and the rights and privileges that promote the pursuit of happiness for ALL members of our society, or are you aligned with the dark and violent forces who will not be satisfied until our society has literally been purged of all people who don’t think, act and believe EXACTLY as you do? Are you (as appears to me to be the case) following the same path as the slave states in insisting on “my way or the highway”? As Sara Robinson says in her article in Alternet “That's your choice. Are you deliberately trying to start a civil war? Or are you willing to work for real civility, and return to your seat at the table, ready to help us choose the country's future?” http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/140623/

Yes or no? Act like adults...or accept the fact that there is no difference at all between you and the other violent extremist whack jobs in the world.

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Lubeebee
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Posted by: Lubeebee on Jun 14, 2009 2:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My problem with an excellent article like this is that there are not some clear, practical steps a reader can take to protest the hate speech that is discussed. Why not list some ACTION links?

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All Terrorism is Bad
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Posted by: ron heringhauser on Jun 14, 2009 8:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The government has been beating the "terrorism" drumbeat for years now; escalaing after 9/11. In the process we have had our Constitutional rights thrown in the trash heap under the guise of keeping us safe from some fanatics hiding in a cave. We are one small step from being in a total police state. With all of the signing statements of the Bush administration: the Feds have the right to open our mail, our e-mail, tap our phones, no right of habeous corpus etc. When Sec. of Treasury threatened Congress with martial law if they did'nt pass the bailout of the criminal bankers last Fall; I started wondering just who the terrorists are?

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911 was an inside job, abortion is an abomination as the messiah brought life to the people!!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: rjs on Jun 15, 2009 1:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only thing that doesn't bring life and happiness to the people is "people" and "governments".

911 was not what it appears, and it needs investigated.

People and government have always been at odds because the true ultimate goal of government is to "control" in best case scenarios, and to "enslave" in the worst case.

"Let my people go" was written, and stands to this day. To this day we ask that our governments "Let my people go." and in 20 million years from now if this globe exists, the people will be asking the same damn thing.

Governments are not of the people and for the people. Nor will they ever be. But according to our doctrine, we are to keep the laws of the land to the best of our abilities. The issue is, the laws are now out of order and not within the confines of what the established order was put there to represent.

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Edd_Doerr
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Posted by: EddDoerr on Jun 16, 2009 12:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The murder of Dr Tiller was indeed a terrorist assassination. It was intended not only to extinguish the life of a caring physician but also to frighten all reproductive health care professionals and all women who might ever have a problem pregnancy. As others have pointed out, the Bible neither condemns abortion nor regards a fetus as a person, a view consistent with neurobiology, which shows that the functions we associate with personhood (i.e., consciousness and will) are not possible until allowed by brian development, some time after 28-32 weeks. It might also be pointed out that vast number of Catholics, Protestants, Jews and others support choice for women. Check out the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice and Catholics for Choice. Opposition to reproductive choice stems from adherence to a patriarchalist fundamentalism. Edd Doerr, President, Americans for Religious Liberty (and a Rachel Maddow fan)

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Before Reagan
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Posted by: pelican beak on Jun 8, 2009 1:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recall that before the Reagan administration, the certainty that a human life begins at conception was not a common belief - and didn't have a militant air to it. Then I began running into folks who couldn't believe a person knowing anything wouldn't believe that. Clearly, a concerted effort to spread that belief had been at work, through circles I didn't live in.

I know that people with authoritative voices have been repeating the opposite over and over, but the scripture is not clear and consistent on when a human life begins. Those who are positively certain the Bible says so likely carry that belief as a product of a concerted manipulative propaganda campaign through churches, begun in earnest about 30 years ago.

Those who use that belief to fabricate excuses not to follow Jesus' very clearly stated instructions how to get to heaven, or exceptions to His instructions, are fooling themselves into damning their soul.

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» RE: The Morning Joe folks just said Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Listening to Joe Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: a pagan god? Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: a pagan god? Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: Before Reagan Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
» RE: Before Reagan Posted by: manyu
» amazing Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Long Before Reagan Posted by: Cybershaman
» Late Term abortions Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Late Term abortions Posted by: cmaciain
» Great logic Posted by: truthlover
» Reductio ad absurdum Posted by: pelican beak
» That's just absurd Posted by: truthlover
» RE: That's just absurd Posted by: pelican beak
» By the way, truthlover - Posted by: pelican beak
» Hello? truthlover, hello? Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Great logic Posted by: Seranvali
» RE: Late Term abortions Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Late Term abortions Posted by: Seranvali
» Oh, I'm plenty mad. Disgusted too. Posted by: godsbreath64
» RE: Before Reagan Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Before Reagan Posted by: Seranvali
» RE: Before Reagan Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Before Reagan Posted by: Seranvali

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just pointing out a typographical mistake... a great interview.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: emccready on Jun 8, 2009 1:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"And in this case, we were wrong. We were wrong more really. We were wrong politically."

The man was saying We were wrong MORALLY.

And he is right! The immorality of Bill Reilly and some of the other talking bobbleheads on Faux news is sickening... and most of them would profess to be Christians no doubt. Jesus would hang his head in shame to have such things done in his name and would throw these Pharisees out of the Media Temple and disassociate himself with them altogether.

What goes around comes around and I feel sure that given Karma that these people will get theirs one way or another, if not in this world, in the next. Shame on them all!

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» RE: wrong 'more really' = MORALLY Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: We know you are a Bush troll Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» That's because you're a nutter. Posted by: GuitarBill

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Confiscate their guns
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Jun 8, 2009 3:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's time to repeal the Second Amendment, which is a complete anachronism, and confiscate the guns.

I, for one, am looking forward to it. :)

The courts have affirmed over and over that there is no individual right to bear arms, but the gun guys simply ignore this, because it isn't what they want to hear.

Despite endless repetitions of the meme, the Second Amendment was not put in place to give individuals the right to bear arms, as the gun-lovers claim. It was put there so the slave-owners could form militias to control their slaves. Far from symbolizing individual freedom, guns represent slavery.

This has been historically confirmed, and of course, the gun guys ignore this, too. Are we beginning to see a pattern?

Since there is no such right, it should be relatively easy to take it away. When a "right" which was imkaginary in the first place kills thousands of people every year and costs every American $500 per year, that right needs to be taken away.

The example of post-Katrina New Orleans makes it clear: when gun proponents get together, they don't defend anyone's rights. They go out and shoot unarmed black people. Some things never change.

With this dismal record, why should we keep putting ourselves at risk and shelling out $500 a year to support their habit?

Sorry fellas, but your rights end when they start impinging on the rights of others.

I won't even mention school and church shootings, or the fact that the American Nazi Part is enthusiastically pro-gun, as are America's Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, Klansmen, racists, anti-Semites, militiamen, homophobes, religious loonies, cop-haters, psychopaths, sociopaths, career criminals, serial killers, gun lobbyists, and domestic terrorists.

It's a white-guy thing. The power of the gun lobby notwithstanding, poll after poll reveals that most Amewicans want fewer guns and more gun control.

Let's face it: gun guys are mostly white males who have proven themselves to be complete screw-ups. Gun proponents obviously don't give a fig about you or me or our children or the Constitution or anything. They're just scared sh*tless we're going to take away their toys.

The pro-gun people were full of sh*t from the get-go. They said guns would protect us from a tyrannical government--but where were the gun guys when George W. Bush was shredding the Constitution? Sitting around polishing their barrels, no doubt.

We could invite them to emigrate to another county, except that no decent country would let them keep their guns. Tough situation.


Swine

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» As the bumper sticker says... Posted by: colinmeister
» RE: Good call! Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Confiscate their guns Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
» RE: It is not going to happen Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Confiscate their guns Posted by: Seranvali
» RE: Confiscate their guns Posted by: manyu
» RE: zero credibility Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Confiscate their guns Posted by: brunowe
» 100% correct, great job. Posted by: Prophit
» You nailed it, Perry. Posted by: GuitarBill
» Way off Posted by: brunowe
» RE: You nailed it, Perry. Posted by: uncleeddie
» RE: Confiscate their guns Posted by: uncleeddie

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Otto
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Posted by: otto on Jun 8, 2009 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's become the American way. We have been exporting and sponsoring terrorism for years, including Reagan's "Freedom Fighters" in Nicaragua, the killers of Romero in El Salvador, and all kinds of thigns taught at "The School of the Americas" in the U.S.

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» RE: Otto Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
» RE: Otto Posted by: otto
» RE: Otto Posted by: 1cclady

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LOL
[Report this comment]
Posted by: AdamDunny on Jun 8, 2009 5:37 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OMgosh you have GOT to be kidding me. People are takign this terrorist nonsense WAY too seriously!

RT
Online Privacy when it Counts

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Why are you suprised? These fools did this to Black People for 100 years.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: fred_53_99 on Jun 8, 2009 5:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who is uprised at these home grown terror groups needs to look at the history of terror against Black Americans from 1865 until say 1965. The violence wasn't always a lynch mob although that could and did happen at any time. It was the constant acts of terror: bombings, shootings, assults,rape, kidnap and destruction of properity.Some of it was done to keep blacks from voting, some to remind blacks they were lesser beings , perhaps not human. These violent antiabortion folks are many of the same folks that had no problem doing these mean thing to Black folks. The violence thing does work: you don't convience people to change , you just force your opnion on them . Funny thing Jesus never forced anyone to do anything, he gave examples of how he was right and then he just asked one to accept it.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» Warning us about trolls? Posted by: outsideagitator
» She is the greatest commentator Posted by: outsideagitator
» So right you are, that stooge probably Posted by: outsideagitator

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Guns and Military suicides
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Posted by: underledge on Jun 8, 2009 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just a thought regarding guns - Thirty years or so American’s attitudes began changing on guns and violence in general. Unisex toys evolved removing and labeling many violence provoking boy’s toys as inappropriate. Generally speaking, up until this time, one grew up with two distinct lines of toys - those for boys and those for girls. Playing Cops and Robbers, Cowboys and Indians went the way-side. Games evolved where no one lost and undue pressure would be avoided.

I can’t help but wonder what connection this change in attitudes has with problems in our military with mental stress and suicides. The bottom line of all military training is to kill or support the ability to kill another human being. It has to be traumatic to actually pull the trigger and see someone die at your hand or know that from a distance you were responsible for the deaths and injuries of countless people. Perhaps an inner city gang member might feel no remorse but growing up in a society where the actual sight of a real dead or dying person was something you had been sheltered from your entire life, has to have a serious affect on one.

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» RE: Traumatic or fun Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: High suicide rates Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: High suicide rates Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: It has always been a problem Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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Homegrown terror......
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jun 8, 2009 6:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I understand that there are differing views about abortion, these killings are designed to intimidate the doctors performing legal and safe services to women! The bible that these people speak of but are obviously not reading have more instructions on love and loving others - the blind, closed minded religion that these people believe in, stagnates their minds and allows for no opposition. These people are domestic terrorists and murderers and their acts should render them jailed for life!

These good bible thumpers, their care and concern is only in the womb! Where are these people for adoption, foster care, lower cost daycare for women that are working low wage jobs? These are some of the same people that don't want contraceptives, or condoms, or sex education taught in the schools! Their closed minds don't allow enough air or light to circulate in their brains or their hearts, maybe if they did, they would stop perpetrating these acts of terror!

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» RE: They are terrorists Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Homegrown terror...... Posted by: yolanda
» RE: Homegrown terror......Spirit Girl Posted by: wagnerrocks@gmail.com

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poison
[Report this comment]
Posted by: freshlemon on Jun 8, 2009 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you feel better now that you have poured a little poisonous negativity on one of the few journalists who searches for truth in reporting? Pat yourself on the back as you say,"I'm ignorant and proud of it."

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Where is HOMELAND SECURITY----
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Posted by: mcyclemama on Jun 8, 2009 6:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and why aren't they jumping on these anti-abortion nut jobs with all the weight of the power they claim to have? This is, after all, domestic terrorism!
kate

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pro-lifers need to become secular: the Bible supports abortion rights
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Posted by: vasumurti on Jun 8, 2009 7:17 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Genesis 38:24. Tamar's pregnancy was discovered three months after conception, presumably because it was visible at the time. This was positive proof that she was sexually active. Because she was a widow, without a husband, she was assumed to be a prostitute. Her father-in-law, Judah, ordered that she be burned alive for her crime. If Tamar's fetuses had been considered to have any value whatsoever, her execution would have been delayed until after their birth. There was no condemnation on Judah for deciding to take this action.

Exodus 21:22-24. If two men are fighting and one injures a pregnant woman and the fetus is killed, he shall repay her according to the degree of injury inflicted upon her, and not the fetus.

Author Brian McKinley, a born-again Christian, comments:

"Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence-it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death."

Halacha (Jewish Law) does define when a fetus becomes a nephesh (person), a full-fledged human being, when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a "partial-life". The fetus has great value because it is potentially a human life, it gains full human status after birth only.

Abortions are not permitted on the grounds of genetic imperfections of the fetus. Abortions are permitted to save the mother's life or health. With the exception of some Orthodox authorities, Judaism supports abortion access for women. Each case must be decided individually by a rabbi well-versed in Jewish law.

The Babylonian Talmud (Yevamot 69b) states that: "the embryo is considered to be mere water until the fortieth day." Afterwards, it is considered subhuman until it is born. Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and the Talmud, states clearly of the fetus 'lav nephesh hu--it is not a person.' The Talmud contains the expression, "the thigh of its mother," i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body.

This is grounded in Exodus 21:22. That biblical passage outlines the Mosaic Law in a case where a man is responsible for causing a woman's miscarriage, which kills the fetus. If the woman survives, then the perpetrator has to pay a fine to the woman's husband. If the woman is killed, the perpetrator is also killed. This indicates that the fetus has value, but does not have the status of a person.

There are two additional passages in the Talmud which shed some light on abortion. They imply that the fetus is considered part of its mother: One section states that if a man purchases a cow that is found to be pregnant, then he is owner of both the cow and the fetus. Another section states that if a pregnant woman converts to Judaism, that her conversion also applies to her fetus.

Some Jewish authorities have ruled in specific cases. one case involved a woman who becomes pregnant while nursing a child. Her milk supply would dry up. If the child is allergic to all other forms of nutrition except mother's milk, then it would starve. An abortion would be permitted in this case, a potential person, would be justified to save the life of the child, an actual person.

Conservative, Reconstructionist and Reform Judaism are formally opposed to government regulation of abortion. They feel that the decision should rest with the woman, her husband, her doctor and her clergyperson. Some Orthodox authorities agree with this stance. Polls have found up to 90% of American Jews supporting abortion rights.

The New Testament is more permissive than the Old. Paul claims Jesus told him three times, "my grace is sufficient for thee" (II Corinthians 12:8-9), and Christians misinterpret this to mean they're free to do as they wish--ignoring Jesus' teachings and Paul's other teachings altogether.

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David Gunn
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Posted by: manyu on Jun 8, 2009 7:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
David Gunn is buried about six miles where I live. His family still live here. They asked government to look into and crack down on this form of domestic terrorism soon after David Gunn's death. On the day he was buried, the weather was below 20,but there was still a good turn out for it. Unfortunately I couldn't even get out of my driveway to attend.
Clinton passed FACE soon after, but the local authorities and FBI been refusing to enforce it during the Bush years.

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Pro-Life Ads alongside this article? Really??
[Report this comment]
Posted by: norsegirl on Jun 8, 2009 7:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are we really that greedy for ad revenue? This is simply obscene.

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The evolution of the definition of 'terrorism'
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Posted by: JDrozz on Jun 8, 2009 8:21 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Rachel Maddow was brought onto MSNBC last year, I was pleased. I had listened to her on Air America for a couple of years prior and found her approach to be refreshing and succinct, albeit from a distinct "left" perspective. I have noticed that she (and Keith for that matter) have somewhat become mouthpieces for the Obama Administration and her readiness to question authority has diminished.

First when she/Keith began to label the "Tea Parties" as 'Teabagging', I questioned their motives. Now - with Maddow labeling murderers as "terrorists" I think that she has gone too far. The anti-abortion murderers should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and their actions are absolutely horrorific. But they are not terrorists. The continuing evolution of what a terrorists is has been turned in upon American citizens at an alarming rate. The recently issued Missouri Information Analysis Center report (MIAC) that labeled American Citizens who support Ron Paul, Bob Barr, and Chuck Baldwin as potential terrorists. Americans who have bumper stickers that question the Federal Reserve are now potential terrorists. This is too much for me. Rachel Maddow is now lumping in anti-abortion groups or supporters into the same 'terrorist' field.

I think that the time has come to really question what is going on here. Who are the true terrorists? Have we been fighting phantom terrorists all along? We definitely need to look to our past to understand where we are going as a nation. It is time to find out what really happened on 911. 9/11 was used to justify two illegal wars and was the vehicle of fear to push this whole 'terrorist' machine forward. We need to then question why Americans have lost so many of their Constitutionally-appointed freedoms since 911 and why the definition of 'terrorism' has changed to now include so many Americans, who, for the most part, are simply Freedom-loving and peaceful citizens of a country they love. We have been lied to by our "leaders" and the subservient media for far too long. This has all happened before - in 1930's Nazi Germany. I for one, want to live my life with eyes open - love my brothers and sisters, live in freedom and under a system of justice that will try and convict anyone guilty of a crime. Unfortunately I don't think that we live in a country like this anymore and it is up to put the US back on a path of liberty. We must start by moving past the "left" vs. "right" mentality - because they are simply the same thing, with minor changes to produce a artificial tension between Americans.

Rachel Maddow is perpetuating a myth from the "left" perspective just as Rush Limbaugh perpetuates a myth from the "right", and We The People need to open our eyes and demand answers to questions of monumental importance. Our future depends upon it.

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» RE: JDrozz, read the acticle! Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: It looks like terrorism to me Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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Rachel Maddow - Americas bravest reporter!
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Jun 8, 2009 8:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is incredibly brave of Rachel Maddow to do. What a set this girl has! Ovaries of steel!

The gutless media wouldn't dare do what Rachel has done here, taken on the right-wing hate speech in the face of a movement that needs little excuse to target her. The fact that Rachel Maddow has given us a comprehensive look at the realities of the extremism that comes from the Pro-Life leaders, and the effects of their political rhetoric, is by far the most informative and comprehensive report on this issue... period.

Bravo Rachel Maddow. You're the bravest reporter in America!

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» RE: I don't know about bravest Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: I vote for Alex Jones Posted by: ron heringhauser

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This article and its title ENDORSE RIGHT-WING PROPAGANDA
[Report this comment]
Posted by: truthlover on Jun 8, 2009 9:24 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is this discussion framed in terms of "the war on terror" and "terrorism"?

This was a crime.

It was murder.

Calling it "terrorism" only buys into the hysteria of slapping "terrorism" on any violent act, any vandalism, or even any protest.

When you label crime and dissent "terrorism" you are aiding and abetting the destruction of our liberties, and you are encouraging the concept of thought crime.

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skijo
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ski on Jun 8, 2009 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How do we stop them? Pretty simple. They are terrorists. Employ the Patriot Act against them. Tap their phones, intercept their emails, put surveillance on their every move. Don't allow them on airline flights. Put them in Gitmo with the other terrorists.

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» RE: skijo Posted by: willymack
» RE: skijo Posted by: madcat007

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DR. TILLER DID A 10 YEAR OLD WHO DID NOT KNOW WHAT HAD
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Jun 8, 2009 10:29 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
happened. Yes, it was a late term abortion. Should the radical right have the right to require that ten year olds have babies? The radical right has had other strange effects.

When a baby dies in the uterus an abortion is illegal. The mother is forced to have the baby. They do force the labor. It gets gooffier and goofier.

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Anti-abortion people are self-destructive...
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Posted by: Dak on Jun 8, 2009 11:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I ge quite amused listening to these rabid anti-abortionists ranting about saving lives and then supporting killing people.
Sounds to me like they themselves were legitimate
cases for abortion. Darn!!!
Dakotahgeo

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Targeting wrong people
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Posted by: xmvince on Jun 8, 2009 11:38 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If they really feel that strongly that they need to commit some violent act then they are targeting the wrong people.

Instead they should go after government officials.

Again, their acts are not even close to justified and murder is very wrong, but targeting doctors is just dumb as the doctors are just carrying out their jobs.

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» RE: Targeting wrong people Posted by: orwellturns

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Strongest argument in favor of abortion
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Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Jun 8, 2009 1:38 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just think if Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, wolfowitz, Abrams, Greenspan, Paulson, Gingrich, O'Reilly, Coulter, Hannity, Murdoch, Rove, Limbaugh and countless others had been aborted during any trimester. Would the world today be a better place to occupy? Mine would!

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"The Handmaid's Tale" becoming a reality
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Posted by: frantic1971 on Jun 8, 2009 2:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For those who are interested, I suggest checking out a 1990 movie called "The Handmaid's Tale", based on a book of the same name. It starred Robert Duvall and Faye Dunaway, among others. It is a frightening view of what America would be like if these pro-life (sic) terrorists would win.

Looking back, it's amazing that a movie like this was ever made.

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Oh, please!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: jennymac on Jun 8, 2009 2:55 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wire was not made for killing. Guns have one purpose only - to maim or kill, period. Sheesh! What a predictable response! Besides, this article is more about choice, not gun control.

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Extremists use "God's Mistake" Blasphemy to justify slavery
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Posted by: GPFrank on Jun 8, 2009 4:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Blasphemy is slander against the Deity as commonly understood. But if the end justifies the means slander against anything or anybody is appropriate.

The present radicalism to prevent abortion or women's choice is part of a
movement to re-institute slavery, pure and simple. The object is to enslave women, though the movement
would also be very happy to enslave Blacks and Native Americans if that were politically possible.
In regard to marriage and reproduction the movement would actually consider the
kind of regime as the Latter Day Saints colony in Texas, as ideal.
But there are also included a minority among females believe in the institution of
"kept" women. "Innocent fertilized eggs" be dammed. They have given away their true
motive in the new attacks on birth control and condoms. But they are succeeding
in intimidating some women in the face of the terror and propaganda that
includes falsified medical data.
They have taken one of the versions of creation of humanity
in Genesis ch 2:7as God's mistake, so God did it over again to create the wholly human.
( If that is not Blasphemy then I don't know the meaning of the word. )Instead of regarding the soil of the earth that gives everything life as blessed they spew hatred against that very thing along with whom they say came from it.
They believe slavery is part of the natural human condition. They believe the proper use of free speech is to bring about slavery over those "less than human".

Frank Lornitzo

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Rachel Maddow
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Posted by: pfm on Jun 8, 2009 4:07 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rachel Maddow: Right-Wing Terrorism Must Be Stopped ...MSNBC. Posted June 8, 2009... after reading the article and many of the comments posted I find myself wondering why Ms. Maddow chose to use "buzz" words we define in the moment to serve whatever our immediate need might be..? Terrorism, right-wing, abortion, right to life, man she hit them all in the process whether intended or not America again found itself polarized and unable or unwilling to attempt rational discussion as the connotation of the inflammatory "buzz" words raged within us.

Is there truly no common ground or common language lacking the inflammation of our overused, whimsically defined "buzz" words...?

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» RE: achel Maddow Posted by: orwellturns
» RE: achel Maddow Posted by: Charlow

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Right to life people should support gun control
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Posted by: rmirman on Jun 8, 2009 6:36 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Insist publicly that right to life people are strong supporters gun control. Don't teens also have a right to life? Push them very hard on this.

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Abortion and Scri[pture
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Posted by: Adastra on Jun 8, 2009 9:01 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Okay,all you good Christians out there who follow the Bible and oppose abortion as being against God's commandments, please raise your hands. Thank you. Now, those of you who own a concordance, please take it down and look up the word "abortion". What's that? Couldn't find it? That's right, it isn't in there, not anywhere. And those of you who don't own a concordance, why don't you care what the scripture really says? Such a valuable research tool and it only costs around $20--for shame. Not very committed to our beliefs, are we? I hear it all the time from you guys, "Abortion is murder; the Bible says so." Really? Please show it to me. I'd love to see how the Bible says, "Abortion is murder," without actually using the word, "abortion." The truth is simply that the whole abortion controversy was made up by corrupt politicians and venal preachers who found a new way to get people all stirred up and give more power to their churches and even more to the politicians who reap the only real benefit from this holy scam. It's true the Bible tells us not to murder, but whether abortion is murder is a matter of opinion, not of scripture. And it is very poorly understood scripture too,if we look at Gen. 2:7, which tells us that, "The Lord God formed Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living soul." Amen. In this verse, we see the beginnings of mankind and at that event it took two things to make a man, forming the physical body and bestowing the breath of life. Only after both these things did the man become a living soul. So in God's opinion, a baby becomes a living soul only once he or she is born and takes his or her first breath. As a Christian, I try follow God's opinion in this matter as in all things. The apostle Paul warns us about those who go out "teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. I wonder about the faith of those who claim to follow God, but won't bother to find out what His opinion really is. They would rather follow the sentimental crap that makes them feel "holy"--or rather "holey". They follow the commandments of men rather than the word of God. Well, they have their reward.

With love under will,

Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville

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A Suggested First Step to Counter Domestic Terrorism
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Posted by: jbpazz on Jun 9, 2009 1:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The terrorists take pride in their work. They are true believers. They crave publicity to spread their ideology, to collect funds and to gain recruits. They are expert at media manipulation to achieve their goals. I respect the courage of such organizations as msnbc and individuals as Rachel Maddow and Keith Olberman to expose these violent elements to the US public. Unfortunately, citizen interest will shift to another evil, the TV ratings will fall and the terrorists will continue to prosper. We already see the leftists on AlterNet scatter the blame to their traditional enemies, their pet peeves and their usual villains. They accomplish nothing.
Instead, I suggest readers this site.
At http://www.youtube.com/hatemaking the contributors monitor such terrorist activities as they appear on television. You will find videos that will curl your hair, but it is a small price to pay to fight fear and hatred effectively.

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Everytime the Right Wing Zealots violate our laws, Prosecute Them - Includes Torture Law Violators
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Posted by: JohnHKennedy Denver CO on Jun 9, 2009 6:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Failing to Prosecute The Right Wing Zealots Only Encourages Them.

Prosecute all of their violations, but for the sake of our Rule of Law and Constitution
Start With The Torturers.

SIGN THE PETITION To Prosecute Them For Torture

ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

Over 250,000 have signed
Join them and call yourself a Patriot

.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» RE: abortio Posted by: pjnaltykins

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abortion-waterboarding
[Report this comment]
Posted by: mahalapril on Jun 9, 2009 6:33 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let us not waterboard the 3 islamic fanatics who massacred 3,000 innocent American civilians on 9/11but we are free to abort the boy/girl Rachel Maddow.

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» RE: abortion-waterboarding Posted by: madcat007

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Just a thought
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Posted by: maddy on Jun 9, 2009 8:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think progressives miss a key point when not discussing the kinds of cases that lead to late-term abortions.

Bravo to discuss the "lines" that need to be drawn guaranteeing freedom of speech and assembly v. the need to investigate domestic terrorist groups and the hope to prevent future acts of violence.

And lovely to listen to a former rightie who's seen the light.

But, why not go after the "baby-killer" claim? If that stands without response?

Don't you have to meet that level of irrationality (which is always characterized as "fact" by O'Reilly) by giving *real* details about why late term abortions occur? If we don't respond to that, we confirm O'Reilly's framing that late term abortions are just the selfish murder of a human life. Instead, why not give cases--and they're heart-wrenching ones--of women having no choice because of birth defects, threat to her own life if she goes into labor, or both. I do believe that no matter how uncomfortable some Americans feel about abortion, they will understand the need for the procedure in such cases, and countering with those cases illustrates--in marked contrast--the madness and rage that underpins the right's hyperbole. It would bring a real adult conversation to the table that would do far more to counter O'Reilly et al. than Michael Moore ever could.

In other words, why not actually discuss the procedure itself?

It bothers me when progressives don't actually discuss abortion itself--to me that implies shame and fear as it legitimates the moralistic frames of the right.

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» RE: Just a thought Posted by: Femmy68
» RE: Just a thought Posted by: Seranvali

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Maddow is new Joan of Arc
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Posted by: john2007 on Jun 9, 2009 8:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am so impressed with Rachel Maddow and how honorable and fearless she is becoming in the fight for progressive ideals. I love Kieth Oberman and Chris Matthews but Rachel is the one who demonstrates real nobility. Yeats was wrong when he said, "The best lack of all conviction."

This interview was one of her best and, of course, professor Turley is always good and now this Schaeffer guy coming out of the extremest closet is also very helpful.

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Anti-Abortion Terrorism
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Posted by: lynmarenjensen on Jun 9, 2009 11:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why are anti-abortion extremists not subject to the most extreme anti-terrorism measures our government can use? The answer is simple. It's "just" women and "just" abortion. It's not anything "important" like weapons or oil.

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Remember "eco terrrorists"?
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jun 9, 2009 11:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's the creation of the Bush Administration and Att. General Ashcroft. How many people have been killed by these "eco terrorists", as opposed to the number killed by pro life wachos? In fact, the eco terrorists were one off vandals with little organization, while the pro life nut cases were well organized, clearly identifiable groups. But Bush gave us eco terrorists and supported the Abortion clinic bombers and denied that they were terrorists.

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» Ecoterrrorists Posted by: NickJones
» RE: coterrrorists Posted by: Seranvali

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No difference between this and a suicide bomber
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Posted by: jontan88 on Jun 9, 2009 4:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who say this was simply a "crime" have not understood the word "terrorism" which is to intimidate ("terrorize") people for a purpose - usually religious or nationalistic. Al Queda claims to be doing "God's work" by driving Westerners from Islamic lands. The Taliban claims to be doing "God's work" by imposing its ultra conservative Shariah Law on the people under its control. The pro-life movement claims to be doing "God's work" by "saving" the unborn. When they resort to violence to do "God's work", they become terrorists.

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THINK
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Posted by: IRIQUOIS227 on Jun 10, 2009 7:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, why are Americans such sheep. The follow human waste like the republican party, support them with money that oftentimes is meant for medicine, or worse yet, food. The support these TERRORISTS in much the same way. I'm not suggesting that ALL of them do, but a huge portion of Americans do in the name of God. They follow what they call "murder" WITH MURDER. Whether one or a billion, it's the same damned thing. I guarantee a limp status if i ever see one of these roaches locked to a car or firehyrant, because I will end their lives. They are terrorists of the clearest kind, and that they are allowed to combine and conspire against other people demonstrates once again how inept the government is. These are bugs. low life garbage and should be exterminated as such. The Human approach to these insects should be the same as any, simply kill them. They seem to care more about these buaabiz as the dead bug Jerry Foolwell used to say, from conception to birth, but no concern from birth to death. You see these homeless, mistreated children everywhere. Where are these TERRORISTS THEN? These turds are cowards in the extreme. They are like the republicans who now support them out in the open like Newt Gingrinch and Tom Tancredo, they hide like rats in the night. All for their God. One should understand that doing this for their god is the ONLY reason they do this hateful business. So they can get their wide pale pasty white, and usually male asses into their "heaven." You know, Great mansions, bird wings, an eternal toga party whilst enjoying the bliss of being on their knees for all eternity worshiping their pasty assed white male god. Or god forbid, 70 virgins!!? No thanks. I wonder what would happen if God came down and said with a thunderous voice, "WELL KIDS!, THIS IS IT, THERE'S NO AFTERLIFE, JUST THIS ONE!!" I can hear the wailing now, "all that ridiculous stuff i did thinking I was git in heaven!!! These vermin do these things because they are patently insane, and lost in a tragic long standing lie. An Ancient social control construct. Their lives, like all of our lives are worthless to anyone but ourselves. In the grand scheme of things human beings are worth no more than roaches, or any other form of life. These meatballs think that their angry, jealous, vengeful god had the cajones to create, and from nothing, the grand complex universe we are in? Impossible. How many BILLIONS of people have died over the eons because of religious differences. How many more? George Tiller was just another in a centuries long attempt by these uneducated, unsophisticated anencephalic monsters. Stop the tide of their breath. By any and all means. Kill them. Hunt them down like the vermin they are. Extinguish them. Hang them, gut them. You'll find the earth becomes more peaceful by ever death involving a religious roach.

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Violence Prevention
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Posted by: GZ on Jun 10, 2009 10:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The entire past 30 years has been one long right wing rampage: Nuke 'em!

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» RE: Violence Prevention Posted by: Seranvali

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Again, Stop the Terrorism Rhetoric!
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Posted by: Casadh on Jun 10, 2009 10:58 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please, if you read this, consider this, and discourage the usage of the word "terrorism" in our language. It is a word that demonizes crimes and shifts position according to who is in power and who isn't. If we honestly believe in fairness, we *cannot* only believe in it when we *aren't* in power.

Now that the right-wing are shifting out of power, those of us on the left need to avoid repeating the injustices by the right. They called us left-wingers as traitors, terrorist-sympathizers,and guilty of treason. They loved to call animal rights and environmentalists as "eco-terrorists" (despite that neither have killed people).

Now that the right is falling out of favor, let us NOT treat crimes differently based on the ideological beliefs the individual had.

Murder is murder.

The fact that the murder was done over the issue of abortion does NOT make the murder an act of terrorism.

Let us end the usage of the rhetoric of terrorism. Not only should we object to its usage by our political opponents, but we must also object to its usage by ourselves.

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Terrorism
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Posted by: mikehattan on Jun 10, 2009 2:28 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rhetoric does not kill people. People kill people.

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» RE: Terrorism Posted by: Femmy68

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Judgement
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Posted by: Nightowl on Jun 10, 2009 9:33 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To paraphrase: "Judgement is mine", sayith the Lord.

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Anthony D'Auria
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Posted by: Tony D on Jun 10, 2009 9:42 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This whole thing is just another reminder that we are an insane species. It is only when one accepts this premise that the whole situation becomes reasonable.

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Let's get our priorities straight.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ronniejw on Jun 10, 2009 11:55 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These right wing terrorist would not be able to pull off these attacks if the government wasn’t so busy chasing after non-violent Animal Rights Activist and Environmentalist and claiming, falsely, that they are the terrorist. They are all to busy infiltrating Anti-War and Human Rights Organizations to effectively go after the right wing nut cases. It’s about time this government gets it’s priorities straight.

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Coincidence?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: dunivant66 on Jun 11, 2009 2:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Has anybody realized that the man is 88 years; old anti-government; a holocaust denier; has been in prison in the last decade; served on a U-boat in WWII; and writes for the right-wing. Coming back to the main argument; Mr. von Brunn is 88 years old; if you are looking at the age it is not seen as odd; the 88 is actually a symbol of Adolf Hitler. The eighth letter of the alphabet is H, and the second letter is H; put them together it is Hiel Hitler an Aryan mantra. I learned the symbolism from a gangs class that I took. Perhaps there is deeper meaning behind the attack; there will be more attacks; we as citizens have to be aware of the dangers; thank god no children were hurt.

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Go ahead and call me a profiler
[Report this comment]
Posted by: LMNOP on Jun 11, 2009 4:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But when I see someone who looks like Larry the Cable Guy coming toward my car holding a Bible or a beer, I lock all my doors.

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Ms New England
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Posted by: Charlow on Jun 11, 2009 9:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are clearly seeing an upsurge of domestic terrorism aimed against us, or at least the majority of us who do not agree with the fringe lunatic organizations that are taking it upon themselves to kill their highest-profile opponents or attack organizations that are bulwarks against the various forms of dangerous extremism.

Add to the list of terrorist incidents -- the bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, the assassination of "liberal" radio talk show host in Denver,Allen Berg,by rabid "white-power" anti-Semites in the 1980s, and yesterday's attack on the Holocaust Museum in Washington.

Freedom of thought and freedom of speech is one thing. Freedom to kill is not one of our core values. These people are trying to take out examples of their most-hated, highest profile individuals and organizations and as with the suicide bombers in the middle east, make themselves into heroic martyrs. I firmly believe that our greatest threats now are not from outside our country, but right here, among us, from individuals who are already known to the law enforcement system and from groups that we have allowed to fester and strengthen themselves while the rest of us have gone on with our normal lives. This must stop.

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sunni
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Posted by: sunni on Jun 12, 2009 3:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
how many of the anti-choice folk have adopted the unwanted children languishing in poorly run orphanges and foster care? where are these concerned citizens when birth mothers drop unwanted children in dumpsters or worse yet just kill them outright or put them in harms way with molesters and sex offenders? these are not child protectors, they are caricatures, the dregs of god's world. no action once the children are born, just looking for their moment of fame while wreaking havoc for families and friends.

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Ms
[Report this comment]
Posted by: 1cclady on Jun 13, 2009 9:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find the arjticle to be a summary of the problem. No solution put forward .... or did I miss soemthing?

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What's the difference?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: CaliJim on Jun 14, 2009 10:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What’s the difference between the need for Islamic and Muslim moderates and the spokespersons, either official or unofficial, of their mainstream religious/political organizations to denounce the use of hatred and violence in promoting the agendas of their extremist elements and the need for Republican and Christian moderates and the spokespersons, either official or unofficial, of their mainstream religious/political organizations to denounce the use of hatred and violence in promoting the agendas of their extremist elements? NONE.

Failure of the moderate mainstream of all religions and nations to step up to condemn and attempt to restrain their extremist fringe groups from using violence in their disagreements with opponents is one of two things, moral cowardice or implicit support for those actions.

Here are a few quotes from a 2002 speech by George W. Bush that are relevant to the issue:

“…The hatred of a few holds the hopes of many hostage. The forces of extremism and terror are attempting to kill progress and peace by killing the innocent….”

“…There is simply no way to achieve that peace until all parties fight terror. Yet, at this critical moment, if all parties will break with the past and set out on a new path, we can overcome the darkness with the light of hope….”

“…Leaders who want to be included in the peace process must show by their deeds an undivided support for peace….”

Statements by Republican and “Christian” leaders that vilify their opponents, give credence to the concept of secession from the United States, falsify or distort the truth in a way to inflame followers or convey the concept that the violence is somehow justified and approved of by their god (“God sent the killer” and similar sentiments were recently observed following the cowardly and vicious murder of Dr. George Tiller) are actions that are no different than the same actions committed by the Taliban, Al Qaeda and others who act in the same fashion.

I’ve said for years that we are in a cultural war…not between Christians and Muslims, Democrats and Republicans, American citizens and citizens of other nations, but, between the extreme religious/racial based bigotry and total lack of acceptance and tolerance shown by fundamentalists of all types and the scientific/humanist/freedom based tolerance of differences and individual rights that is the basis of all civilization and the core of the values of United States of America.

Those of you who share beliefs with the violent extremists and don’t speak out or take action against their violence are equally culpable – particularly if you have knowledge of illegal activities or plans, but fail to notify the appropriate authorities.

So…what is it? Are you supportive of a United States of America with freedom, liberty and the rights and privileges that promote the pursuit of happiness for ALL members of our society, or are you aligned with the dark and violent forces who will not be satisfied until our society has literally been purged of all people who don’t think, act and believe EXACTLY as you do? Are you (as appears to me to be the case) following the same path as the slave states in insisting on “my way or the highway”? As Sara Robinson says in her article in Alternet “That's your choice. Are you deliberately trying to start a civil war? Or are you willing to work for real civility, and return to your seat at the table, ready to help us choose the country's future?” http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/140623/

Yes or no? Act like adults...or accept the fact that there is no difference at all between you and the other violent extremist whack jobs in the world.

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Lubeebee
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Lubeebee on Jun 14, 2009 2:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My problem with an excellent article like this is that there are not some clear, practical steps a reader can take to protest the hate speech that is discussed. Why not list some ACTION links?

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All Terrorism is Bad
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ron heringhauser on Jun 14, 2009 8:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The government has been beating the "terrorism" drumbeat for years now; escalaing after 9/11. In the process we have had our Constitutional rights thrown in the trash heap under the guise of keeping us safe from some fanatics hiding in a cave. We are one small step from being in a total police state. With all of the signing statements of the Bush administration: the Feds have the right to open our mail, our e-mail, tap our phones, no right of habeous corpus etc. When Sec. of Treasury threatened Congress with martial law if they did'nt pass the bailout of the criminal bankers last Fall; I started wondering just who the terrorists are?

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911 was an inside job, abortion is an abomination as the messiah brought life to the people!!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: rjs on Jun 15, 2009 1:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only thing that doesn't bring life and happiness to the people is "people" and "governments".

911 was not what it appears, and it needs investigated.

People and government have always been at odds because the true ultimate goal of government is to "control" in best case scenarios, and to "enslave" in the worst case.

"Let my people go" was written, and stands to this day. To this day we ask that our governments "Let my people go." and in 20 million years from now if this globe exists, the people will be asking the same damn thing.

Governments are not of the people and for the people. Nor will they ever be. But according to our doctrine, we are to keep the laws of the land to the best of our abilities. The issue is, the laws are now out of order and not within the confines of what the established order was put there to represent.

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Edd_Doerr
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Posted by: EddDoerr on Jun 16, 2009 12:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The murder of Dr Tiller was indeed a terrorist assassination. It was intended not only to extinguish the life of a caring physician but also to frighten all reproductive health care professionals and all women who might ever have a problem pregnancy. As others have pointed out, the Bible neither condemns abortion nor regards a fetus as a person, a view consistent with neurobiology, which shows that the functions we associate with personhood (i.e., consciousness and will) are not possible until allowed by brian development, some time after 28-32 weeks. It might also be pointed out that vast number of Catholics, Protestants, Jews and others support choice for women. Check out the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice and Catholics for Choice. Opposition to reproductive choice stems from adherence to a patriarchalist fundamentalism. Edd Doerr, President, Americans for Religious Liberty (and a Rachel Maddow fan)

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