REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE  
Comment Is Free / By Jill Filipovic
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 558

The Tiller Murder Wasn't a Lone Killer's Sick Plot; It Came Out of the Radical Anti-Abortion Movement

The murder of Dr. George Tiller is a logical outcome of increasingly violent rhetoric from pundits like Bill O'Reilly and radical pro-life groups.
June 1, 2009  |  
 
 
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George Tiller, a Kansas physician, was shot to death in church on Sunday. He was one of only a handful of doctors in the United States providing late-term therapeutic abortions for women in need -- women whose pregnancies threatened their lives or their health, and women who learned that they were carrying fetuses with severe abnormalities. Women traveled across the country to see Tiller when their own physicians and local medical providers couldn't help them. For many women, Tiller was, as one of his patients put it, "the one shining light in the worst week of my life".

He was also a major lightening-rod in the abortion wars. Anti-choicers harassed his patients, day in and day out. They bombed his clinic. They shot him once before. They filed lawsuit after lawsuit and even convinced local prosecutors to launch criminal investigations and trials (none were successful). They published his home address and the full names of his family members on their websites. They posted information about anyone who did business with him, from where he got his coffee to where he did his dry cleaning.

They had him and his staff wearing bullet-proof vests to work every day. Tiller drove an armored car and protected his home with a state-of-the-art security system. And, to better enable stalking and harassment, they posted his daily comings and goings -- including the fact that he attended services every Sunday at Reformation Lutheran Church, the place where he was ultimately shot and killed.

All because he was a licensed physician who performed legal medical procedures.

Not surprisingly, his killer is strongly suspected to be affiliated with the "pro-life" movement. If that's the case, it makes Tiller the 10th person in the United States to be murdered by anti-choice terrorists.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Since 1977, there have been at least 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery and three kidnappings committed against abortion providers in North America. Tiller himself survived an assassination attempt in 1993.

Some pro-life groups are issuing statements of condemnation and attempting to paint this murder as the work of an extremist. But this latest act of terrorism is, sadly, not an anomaly. It is part of a clearly-established pattern of harassment, intimidation and violence against abortion providers and pro-choice individuals. And mainstream pro-life groups shoulder much of the blame.

Pro-life organizations routinely refer to abortion as "murder", a "genocide" and a "holocaust". They post the full names abortion providers on their websites, along with their addresses, their license plate numbers, their photos, the names of children and the schools those children attend (sometimes with helpful Wild-West-style "Wanted" posters offering $5,000 rewards).


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Jill Filipovic is a lawyer in Manhattan who formerly served as the Gender and Reproductive Justice editor at AlterNet. More of her writing is available online at her blog, Feministe.
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See more stories tagged with: abortion, choice, radicals, late-term abortion, extremists, george tiller, randall terry, frank pavone

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As one of many progressive pro-lifers
[Report this comment]
Posted by: rakista on Jun 1, 2009 3:10 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since Tiller's murder it seems like the pro-choice folks are coming out the woodwork with relatively immature responses like this.

Look, you do yourselves no favour attempting to demonize and dehumanize all pro-lifers as some sort of bible-thumping, gun toting nutjobs as the social dynamic underlying the abortion debate is shifting to the younger generations who are moderately more pro-life than pro-choice.

If the progressive movement in the United States is to attract that newer generation there must be some acknowledgement that well over 30% of the people you stand with on issues of Gay Marriage, Torture, Death Penalty and Poverty are Pro-Life on abortion.

We are sick of your hateful stereotypes.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Just admit it... Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Thank you Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» They aren't "pro-lifers" Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: They aren't "pro-lifers" Posted by: BPomeroy
» Silly zizizzi! Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Silly ideas Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Silly ideas Posted by: PopRox80
» RE: Silly zizizzi! Posted by: MelStL
» RE: Silly zizizzi! Posted by: MelStL
» Good point, maxfrisson ... Posted by: harryf200
» Oh, are you now? Posted by: Ms. DuFontagne
» And we are sick of you Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: And we are sick of you Posted by: Quannah
» More on hypocrisy Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: As one of many progressive pro-lifers Posted by: buschthebearrefreshing
» RE: As one of many Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: I am not impressed Posted by: WyrdSister
» No problem Posted by: pelican beak
» Thank you, MelStL Posted by: hagwind
» First, Do NO Harm ... Posted by: Ligeia
» RE: First, Do NO Harm ... Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: First, Do NO Harm ... Posted by: lively56
» RE: First, Do NO Harm ... Posted by: MelStL
» RE: no harm done ... Posted by: WyrdSister
» So, Ligeia..... Posted by: morticia
» RE: First, Do NO Harm ... Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: such venom Posted by: WyrdSister
» I am psychologically well Posted by: crashgrab

Comments are closed-

Karma....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: MotherLodeBeth on Jun 1, 2009 3:20 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Call it Karma, or what goes around comes around. People and even government reap what they sow, be it invading other countries like Iraq or even someone like Dr. Tiller.

Fact is, late term abortions like he did, are simply not something one needs unless the woman's life is actually at risk and then even most non religious owned hospitals would do those.

This isn't pre 1970's when even birth control was illegal for married couples. Now we have so many forms of reliable birth control that there should be so few abortions. But we live in a do my own thing society, or a society who wants someone else to help bail us out of messes we get into.

So sorry, while I am pro-choice in the very early weeks of an UNintended pregnancy I cannot support the majority of late term abortions. And I say this as someone who has a child born with medical issues. And a baby that was lost pre birth.

~Beth~

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Karma.... Posted by: dimityrose
» RE: Karma.... Posted by: BPomeroy
» RE: Karma.... Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Karma.... Posted by: amalahyrdaya
» RE: Karma.... Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Karma.... Posted by: Pegaleg
» RE: Karma.... Posted by: clvngodess
» RE: Karma.... Posted by: Bibsisis

Comments are closed-

already two posts with hate speech in response
[Report this comment]
Posted by: goatini on Jun 1, 2009 3:26 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ladies (if you are indeed ladies, which somehow i doubt), your hate speech is wrapped in pretty shiny ribbons and bows. we see who you really are.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» female autonomy cannot wait Posted by: goatini
» RE: female autonomy cannot wait Posted by: Seranvali
» rabid pro lifers! Posted by: WyrdSister
» You're kidding me - right? Posted by: harryf200
» Thanks for the response Posted by: Curio
» RE: Thanks for the response Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Thanks for the response Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Thanks for the response Posted by: Seranvali
» oh Purple Girl Posted by: goatini
» Gee, where's vasumurti? Posted by: morticia
» RE: hate speech Posted by: WyrdSister
» you misread my post Posted by: goatini

Comments are closed-

Anthony D'Auria
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Tony D on Jun 1, 2009 4:17 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a democracy it is the pregnant persons choice as to what she wants to do with her body. The fetus is still part of her until it is born. We have enough insane fundamentalist mothers who talk to their god and kill their children after they are born. They are the ones who are evil.

The lesson here is that Christians are not ever supposed to kill because someone has a different opinion then they do.

They should arrest all the anti-abortion people who parade in front of the clinic and send them away to an insane asylum until they are cured. While they are at it they may as well send Bill O'Reiley with them.

Proof of the adage that: "their are good people and evil people in the world but to make a good person evil it takes religion."

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» RE: Anthony D'Auria Posted by: Bibsisis

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this is sickening
[Report this comment]
Posted by: cherylsass123 on Jun 1, 2009 5:06 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and what is worse is that this operation rescue , so many of their follower churches; actually condone this. yes, there are arguments against late term abortions like Dr Tiller did. and true, if these same women seeking these abortions were to instead have used birth control, there would not be the need for so many abortions. but then, is that not what Obama's been saying all along as to how, if you start teaching sensible sex education, NOT that useless " abstinence" horseshit, from about age 7 or 8 on like they already do in the Netherlands and even Italy; then you would actually end up reducing the need for so many abortions. it has been proven that , in the Netherlands where they've been long teaching comprehensive sex education which works; prevention though birth control actually has reduced the abortion rate to only 1/10 th of what it is here in USA!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Use condoms! Posted by: nate
» Poor bloody excuse! Posted by: harryf200
» Men don't need a dildo, silly. Posted by: harryf200
» Child-bearing isn't worthless Posted by: crashgrab
» Be lesbian or gay! Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Be lesbian or gay! Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: this is sickening Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: this is sickening Posted by: Seranvali

Comments are closed-

This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» RE: You get what you give Posted by: kimpohl
» RE: You get what you give Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: You get what you give Posted by: gilliani
» They aren't "children" Posted by: nate
» RE: You get what you give Posted by: crashgrab

Comments are closed-

Internal US Terrorism shows the fear factor once again!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Bearzerker on Jun 1, 2009 8:25 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
wonder how many more liberties will be cloistered in the name of safety?
or how many countries will need to be invaded to soothe the frantic news propagandists spewing hatred in the name of free speech!

religion is freaky in the US, but all i can say is that most peoples vision of heaven, is my vision of hell!

and people wonder why we loose faith...
in religion, politics, relationships etc

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Whose Ox is Being Gored, and Does It Matter?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: DrBrian on Jun 2, 2009 12:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a problem with this author's argument. Suppose a death penalty opponent describes it as murder; should he or she be blamed if someone kills a judge or governor? Or if someone criticizes the military for using cluster bombs and white phosphorus on civilians and calls it murder, and someone then (as just happened) takes revenge on a soldier, is he or she to blame?

We must make a distinction between clear advocacy of criminal behavior and expression of opinions that might contribute to an unhinged person's taking it upon him- or herself to avenge perceived wrongdoing.

The First Amendment is essential to democracy and should allow for unhindered expression of opinions, even overheated or offensive ones, as long as they stop short of advocating crimes.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» There is no DEMOCRACY here Posted by: dimityrose
» Agree Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Agree Posted by: Seranvali

Comments are closed-

Face-to-face discussion groups
[Report this comment]
Posted by: atheistcable on Jun 2, 2009 2:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here in the Twin Cities, a group of us, both Christian and atheists, formed an organization called the Secular Bible Study (SBS). And it's popular. As an atheist, I get to meet Christians under, shall I say, supervised conditions. We meet in a public school--but meeting in a church wouldn't bother me in the least--in the evening and spend about two hours together, but it's limited to discussing the bible.

When we register for classes, there is a blank on their form asking what our religion is or, as in my case, no religion. Members of Minnesota Atheists are heavily involved.

There are two leaders: Dr. Grant Steves, an atheist, who has a doctorate in theology, and the other leader is Chester Barber, a Christian who is also working on his doctorate in theology.

As people are coming into the room, the two leaders start assembling us in groups of 6 or 8. You will see both atheists and theists with bibles in their hands. The leaders make sure that we're as evenly divided as possible, theists and atheists. They hand us introductory literature and questionnaires we're to fill out so that we can give a verbal report at the end. We have scholars who come to our class and give a 30-minute presentation.

We talk about what a god is and compare that to gods of other cultures. We discuss belief, sins, morals, how and if the stories in the OT/NT are relevant to our lives (most are not), and where atheists and theists get their morals from.

I don't follow the rules exactly. Occasionally, I bring up topics such as abortion and gay marriage which, especially the abortion issue, engages the group.

All of us have fun. We never come close to having heated arguments. We define our words, we look to evidence, and if there is no evidence for a particular claim, we simply drop the issue. Sometimes people exchange email addresses and continue the discussion on their own time.

Here in the Twin Cities, there is no organized group where the public can gather, to talk about abortion--or the drug war. Many women who are members of Minnesota Atheists are interested in discussing abortion and I am working presently to organize a discussion group based on the SBS format. I wanted to do this some time ago, but the assassination of Dr. Tiller has given this project a boost.

Not all atheists are pro-Choice. I've met a few men who are disturbingly anti-Choice. My explanation is that individuals can rise above the god concept, but they bring with them many ghosts from their former religious life. A few heterosexual males are also uncomfortable around the few gays that are active in our organization. (Women always seem to be more emotionally well-adjusted than men.)

But Minnesota Atheists is an educational organization--and we work at that every day. You may visit our website to see what we do, pick up some ideas for your area, and read our newsletters going back to July 2002. Go to www.mnatheists.org

Every city has public spaces where citizens can assemble and sit in small circles to discuss these issues. On some levels, face-to-face communication is better than exchanging views on the Internet. It requires effort to sustain and advance democracy and peace. Education helps us overcome fear and arrogance.

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The thing I have trouble with is...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: thedigitalfrenzy on Jun 2, 2009 4:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion and the people that use it as a crutch for small minded hatred. The abortion issue is simple. No person, NO MAN, has ANY right to tell another (supposed) FREE human what to do with their bodies. A baby is a baby when it is born, until then it is a fetus. I personally don't have a problem with abortion, there are too many fucking people as it is. Why plop out ANOTHER unwanted one.

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Bottom line: We must change Constitution
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Moonray on Jun 2, 2009 4:30 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The abortion issue is just one of many -- the economy, foreign policy, civil rights, others -- in which reason cannot prevail. It doesn't matter how much blogging, protesting, litigating, praying or foot-stomping you do. Reason can't prevail in these issues because our outmoded Constitution gives all the power to our corrupt government branches, corporations and non-gov institutions.
To achieve any real progress the Constitution must be rewritten to empower genuinely progressive groups and get away from the current pseudo-democracy model. Getting that done would be very difficult, but obviously nothing else will work. Our great hope -- Barack Obama -- is turning out to be Hillary Clinton in disguise. And Hillary Clinton is just Bush 41 in drag.

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Late-term abortions
[Report this comment]
Posted by: vioibi on Jun 2, 2009 5:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Last night on CNN Anderson Cooper spoke to a woman who had a late-term abortion. The baby had numerous defects and had no brain. It had no chance of survival. The woman has other children. It was her right to decide what to do. Dr Tiller gave her an abortion. In many countries female fetuses are routinely aborted because of the societal preference for boys. The world is already over populated. Mass birth control programs have been ineffective. In many parts of the world men refuse to wear condoms. There are more children living in poverty than ever before. In a democratic country with the legal right to abortion doctors are being targeted and murdered because they provide abortion services. No one has the right to murder someone because they don't agree with abortion. No one is allowed to force their beliefs on anyone else.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Late-term abortions Posted by: harryf200
» Then do it in YOUR life Posted by: PrinceRobert
» RE: forced birth Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Late-term abortions Posted by: gilliani
» Accepting responsibility... Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: oh dude, give it UP! Posted by: DaBear
» He can't spell atheist Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Late-term abortions Posted by: Seranvali

Comments are closed-

Punish the criminal who did it.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jun 2, 2009 5:12 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Exploiting a murder for your propaganda purposes is unhelpful to those who support choice.

Beyond that, it is an awfully tacky example of disaster capitalization.

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» Elaborate, please. Posted by: Curio

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Domestic terrorists
[Report this comment]
Posted by: kiel on Jun 2, 2009 5:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Operation Rescue: Domestic terrorists whose assests should be frozen and whose leaders should be charged with supporting terrorism. Voicing political dissent is one thing; these people's actions are beyond dissent. They are terrorists. They are the American Taliban.

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» RE: Domestic terrorists Posted by: lyta

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Real Men
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Purple Girl on Jun 2, 2009 6:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being a married hetero Sexual female, I am Proud to announce I have married a REAL man.
One who recognizes his part in the process of prodcuing a pregnancy.
One who recognizes the fact that it is also his responsilbity to avoid it considering our finacial circumstances
Realized the methods afford Women as birth control carry far more dangerous side effects than a mere Condom to men.
Realized that if the issue aroses it is still my choice, because it will be my body, by health, my life that could be adversely effected.Prefers I be around to spend the rest of his life with.
Recognizes that it is not just girls who must be educated on sexual responsiblity but also the boys.
So instead of endangering my life by resorting to birth control pills or the same risks associated with 'Plan B', My Husband has owned up to his Responsiblity with a vesectomy.He was also always diligent about paying his child support to his Ex. That's what REAL men do.
If we are to have a real conversation about Unwanted pregnancies- those Testicles had better be on the table too.We woman are not getting pregnant by dancing alone between those sheets boys!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Real Men Posted by: m/r
» And who wears the pants in your family? Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: how sexist is THAT question Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: eal Men Posted by: Seranvali

Comments are closed-

The Support of gun-toting Hitler types who think it is okay to kill anyone they
[Report this comment]
Posted by: avidAmerican on Jun 2, 2009 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
disagree with, are definitely terrorists. Recognize any of this? Sound like Islam? And these same nuts promote hate with a vengeance. All those who used TV and Radio to call for Dr. Tiller's death should be charged with complicity to his murder. These dope-heads need to get the message that that is not okay. Dr. Tiller did nothing illegal. His killer did, he committed murder, spurred on by the far-righters on FoxTV, and Crush Limpball, and others.

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» Hitler types?!?! Posted by: countingdaisies

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The Sci Fi Solution? I want to know what if....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: maxfrisson on Jun 2, 2009 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OK, Attention - Both sides, here is a hypothetical situation in which 21st Century science has found a way to teleport a fetus out of the womb and into a artificial birth chamber for development where it held until a transplant is possible ... or where gov't births and raises the whelps as solider-drones. [GOP backing assured, ehh!]

What if this were possible, live extraction and out-of-womb maintenance?

Would Randy Terry and The Pope take them to protect? What if the womb wasn't the problem? What if I could transplant one on Terry's abdomen? Take a sip of coffee and enjoy that image for a minute.... ahhhhhhhh!

Back to our regularly scheduled sarcasm....

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can we FINALLY
[Report this comment]
Posted by: WyrdSister on Jun 2, 2009 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
STOP CALLING THEM 'PRO-LIFE'!!!???

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» They are women-killers, Posted by: Ms. DuFontagne
» RE: They are women-killers, Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: can we FINALLY Posted by: rickiey
» RE: can we FINALLY Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: can we FINALLY Posted by: rickiey
» RE: can we FINALLY Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: can we FINALLY Posted by: rickiey
» Who rules? Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: can we FINALLY Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: "Right to Lie" movement Posted by: WyrdSister

Comments are closed-

A chilling statistic
[Report this comment]
Posted by: dazzle59 on Jun 2, 2009 7:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Last night on her show, Rachel Maddow announced that women living in 87 percent of counties in the United States do not have access to an abortion. That's nearly NINETY PERCENT of our counties, folks! To make matters worse, fewer and fewer young doctors are learning the procedure so this figure will keep rising. Even though abortion is legal in the U.S., ANTI-ABORTION TERRORISM IS WORKING.

One of Rachel's guests last night was a female physician who still performs abortions. She strongly urged all women who have had the procedure to stand up and support the few remaining doctors brave enough to provide it. Thirty-five percent of women of reproductive age in the U.S. have had an abortion. I am one of those women, and I am willing and ready to take a stand against these anti-choice lunatics!

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» RE: A chilling statistic Posted by: Caleb Darkstar
» Access Posted by: BlueTigress

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Abortion politics = scam
[Report this comment]
Posted by: CatDad on Jun 2, 2009 7:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
- Roe v. Wade is like a trust fund for the GOP...it will NEVER be overturned as that would be a disaster. Playing the "culture of life" card has given the GOP tens of millions of freebie votes since 1973
- The GOP has learned that they can pacify these duped "culture of life" people with peripheral victories: banning partial birth abortions, banning abortions in military hospitals, Terry Schiavo, banning stem cell research..the list goes on and one...WHILE keeping general legal access to abortion the law of the land.
- The GOP has tricked Pro-Lifers into believing that overturning Roe v. Wade is some sort of magical event that would be a final victory. Overturning Roe. v. Wade would simply throw the issue of abortion right back to the states, as it existed in 1973.
- Banning abortion would be as effective as our anti-marijuana laws have been to stop kids from smoking post...ask M. Phelps
- The REAL way to limit abortions would be to decrease the need for them by creating an equitable society: universal health care, living wages. Abortion rates in the Netherlands are very low.

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First and Foremost
[Report this comment]
Posted by: weslen1 on Jun 2, 2009 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everyone HAS to STOP calling these "people", "Pro-Life". THEY ARE NOT! And whenever THEY use that phrase, someone HAS to CALL THEM on it. They are NOT "Pro-Life" in any way. They are dictators. They are CONTROL FREAKS. They are War Mongers, Murderers, Terrorists. They are the worst kind of "activist" who's ONLY "claim to fame" is their LOVE for DEATH and DESTRUCTION, who have the need to CONTROL someone ELSE. They are a DISEASE trying to infect as many other of their kind as they can.
We need to CLASSIFY this as a HATE CRIME, as it is and start MONITORING all these Fanatics 24/7 so none of them will EVER get the chance to kill another INNOCENT simply for disagreeing with THEIR twisted belief that GOD CHOSE THEM TO DO HIS WORK because, of course GOD, THE ALL POWERFUL, is not CAPABLE OF DOING HIS OWN WORK AND JESUS WOULDN'T HAVE HAD THE GUTS, because HE was a PEACE MONGER, "OH MY". And if we don't have enough MAN POWER to monitor them then all of these TERRORISTS belong in a cell the FIRST time they even HINT at their craziness. Put them all in straight jackets or send THEM to Gitmo because THEY are the ones who BELONG THERE.
The same thing goes for Child Molesters. LOCK THEM UP FOREVER. Put a stop to it.
RAPISTS! Lock them UP forever. There will be fewer abortions if there are NO rapists.
We DO have the RIGHT to LOCK UP people who are a DANGER to themselves AND/OR to OTHERS. And these FANATICS who believe they have GODS POWER to POLICE THE WORLD are certainly dangerous to ALL of US. LOCK THEM UP!!

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» RE: First and Foremost Posted by: AnIndependentThinker

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Religion sets the stage...for all things, including murder
[Report this comment]
Posted by: AnIndependentThinker on Jun 2, 2009 7:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Religion is the idol of the mob; it adores everything it does not understand." - Anonymous.

Human civilization has lived and continues to live under an umbrella of "justifiable" vengeance. If one man can find "justification" in a criminal act (including the murder of a doctor, who was simply doing his legal job), then his supporters will defend him to the ends of the earth. "Justifiable" does not always equate to justice or equality, however.

The problem with these United States is that our mindset is not that of a superior nation, but that of a third-world country, where we believe that taking the life of one will serve justice in the name of justice; regardless of circumstance.

Until we understand the concept that killing is NOT acceptable in ANY circumstance for living, thinking, breathing, human beings* (and animals)-- we cannot transform the minds of those who have been taught to think otherwise. (*Standard for living, thinking, breathing human beings is OUTSIDE the woman's womb.)

As a woman, I believe that women should have a choice to do with their bodies what they choose to do. I would personally not have an abortion, but I have absolutely NO right to judge what others do with their physical bodies. I would certainly not tell a set of parents that they could not get a heart transplant for their dying child because it is not morally ethical to take the still-beating heart from a dying child to give to another.

I have two healthy, young-adult children whom I wouldn't trade for the world. And while I may not always understand why some women would have an abortion, it is not my place to understand; nor to make that decision for her.

Now, onto the sociological dilemma and irony of these United States... Our countrymen don't like war, but we believe in killing others to set an example. Our citizens don't tolerate murder, but we demand electrocution or lethal injection of those murderers once caught (nevermind the trial by jury). Our govt. demands responsible parenting, but we simply shake our heads when under-educated and neglectful parents maim or kill their offspring. Our citizens scream "murder" when a doctor carries out a LEGAL abortion, but find personal satisfaction and "justice" in the killing of that physician. Our citizens reject and neglect people with severe mental disabilities or physical abnormalities; but would rather have a child born into this world with those severities. Our citizens don't want to pay the high cost of health care premiums, but scream "injustice" and "murder" when a plug is pulled on a brain-dead patient. We can't have it both ways. Somewhere between sanity and insanity is a happy medium. There will always be arguments about what or who came first, "the chicken or the egg;" but that's not going to solve the sociological dilemma. Fact of the matter is, killing in the name of perceived justice is never just...it's insanity.

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RIP Dr Barnett Slepian
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Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars on Jun 2, 2009 8:07 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
while I don't condone what happen in Kansas (I'm from Amherst where Dr Barnett Slepian was gunned down in his own home from a guy whom fled to France to only be returned) so I'm not saying this to be PC however once again the pot is calling the kettle black, very freaking black. There is an old In Living Color skit titled "Why" when something happens in tha hood (where the blacks folks and poor or old whites live) when the News shows up, out of all the people whom looks like they got a brain in there head they find the uber ghetto motherfucker to speak thus setting back the neighborhood for another 10 years. Now Leroy don't speak for a whole community just like this freaking guy don't speak for the Pro-Life community and to used this to dig into the likes of Radio/TV show host is just fucking cheep and you should get punched in the mouth.

I will not shut up even when I'm placed in that casket, like Pac. Life must be protected if not what have we become as a society

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» RE: IP Dr Barnett Slepian Posted by: zeek2

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Killing is SO CHRISTIAN!!!
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Posted by: clainehart on Jun 2, 2009 8:10 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Very astute comments above about how abortion has cynically been used as nothing more than a political vote-getting ploy.

My concern is the psychological motivation of what attracts people to this "movement."

Like all "political killers," Dr. Tiller's murderer was most likely psychotic and wrestling with very deep, personal psychological demons that absolutely nothing to do with "abortion" at all. Killing in the name of "justice" was an excuse to kill, period.

As for the other "pro-lifers," in typical peasant fashion, it's misplaced anger, as usual.

Commenters are right: We do have two Americas now. The gap between the rich and poor is pretty much horrific at this point.

Alternet represents the intelligentsia. It does not represent "the other half": Millions of nominal "serfs" who've been beaten down by decades of anti-labor, inhumane economic policies; crumbling schools; and nonexistent health care.

People in this country have a right to be angry. There is a lot to be angry about. The difference between America today and, say, the peasant rebellions of the 18th and 19th centuries is that here no one understands what they're really angry about. It's the economy, stupid!

Abortion is a nice, neat, black-and-white issue for simple-minded people to get their heads around. It's not their fault: Their religion has stamped out their critical thinking; their schools have completely failed them; and their brains are literally diseased from all the television they watch and the wretched food they eat.

They can't understand their miserable economic condition. But they can understand boys kissing and women bleeding.

I understand the motivation. But I don't understand what to do about it. With every passing administration, we seem to get more and more divided - further and further from any kind of equitable society. We invent all kinds of B.S. artificial divisions - race, religion, sexual orientation - but it's really all about the disparity between the rich and the poor.

Now, what are we going to do about it? Are we just going to let ourselves turn into a full-fledged third world country, where poverty is dismissed as "just the way things are"?

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Posted at Iowa Independent
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Posted by: sausage on Jun 2, 2009 8:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tiller assassination suspect linked to Des Moines activist
By Jason Hancock 6/1/09 4:09 PM

The suspect in the fatal shooting of late-term abortion doctor George Tiller in Kansas was an occasional contributor to a Des Moines-based newsletter that believes that killing abortion providers is justifiable homicide.

Des Moines resident and anti-abortion activist Dave Leach publishes the newsletter, called “Prayer & Action News,” which describes itself as “a trumpet call for the Armies of God to assemble.” In an interview with The Washington Post, Leach said not only has he published the writings of alleged gunman Scott Roeder in the past, but he visited him in Kansas several years ago on his way back from speaking with Rachelle “Shelley” Shannon in prison. Shannon was convicted in 1993 of shooting Tiller outside his clinic. She later confessed to setting fires at abortion clinics in Oregon, California, Idaho and Nevada.

“Indeed, ‘taking the law into your own hands,’ as the idiom goes, is morally, legally, and spiritually dangerous territory,” he said. “But to say it is never right or legal is ignorance of our own laws. Every state has some version of the Necessity Defense, which says if you break a law to save a life, it’s not a crime. Taking dozens of lives by the cruelest devices, from burning to death in acid, to dismemberment, to Dr. Tiller’s scissors in a baby’s brain, as a single day’s work for any abortionist.”

Iowa Independent.com

Indeed, "having the conscience of a hard dick," as the idiom goes, is morally, legally, and spiritually dangerous territory.

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» RE: Posted at Iowa Independent Posted by: crashgrab

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A little insight...
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Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Jun 2, 2009 9:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I grew up in a "pro-life" family, even proudly stood in the picket lines with my parents as a child, before I knew any better.

While I grew up, I constantly heard my parents referring to those that worked at Planned Parenthood as "baby killers", and also heard them constantly refer to the March of Dimes as "baby-killers" as well because I believe they support abortion of highly retarded fetuses. Anyway, anybody who believed in choice and/or realized laws are ineffective were referred to as "baby-killers".

No doubt, this kind of rhetoric is common amongst these people, and it doesn't surprise me that, after hearing this kind of talk, many start believing it and think that murder is the right thing to do. I have no doubt this is not the last time we will hear of this.

I'm sure few "pro-lifers" will admit it, but I grew up around their mentality, listed to their meetings and commentary, and have no doubt that a major percentage of them were happy to hear that the doctor was murdered. To them, one last "baby-killer".

Poor angry, sexually oppressed and frustrated, mean spirited, pathetic fools.

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RE: THE SIMPLE TRUTH IS THIS and this and this other thing too:
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Posted by: DaBear on Jun 2, 2009 12:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bible sez it.
I believe it.
That settles it!

Indeed. And when coming from a group of emotional illiterates who committed cultural theft and rewrote the victims' books to mean things they never meant, it gets a whole lot worse. That's the abject danger of "the Bible says..." and it's always used by Xtians who committed cultural theft.

It also needs to be said that there are MANY women for whom the abortion procedure is NOT and was NOT traumatic or even problematic. It's very telling that in this violent, savage cultural-political climate these womens' voices--those that were not traumatized by abortion--are silent or remain unheard, even by their well-intentioned but myopic sisters (and brothers).

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RE: THE SIMPLE TRUTH IS THIS:
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Posted by: Quannah on Jun 2, 2009 1:19 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THEY ARE ANTI-CHOICE.

THEY ARE PRO-FETUS.

And they could give a fuck about any child once it's born.

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RE: THE SIMPLE TRUTH IS THIS:
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Jun 2, 2009 3:30 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If it is simply a matter of being "the woman's choice," how do we stop her from killing her children whenever they become convenient?

The criteria here, after all, is only that of age. When the next political movement comes along, how safe is the right to life for any of us - the elderly, for instance.

I wondered elsewhere here why no one has mentioned another doctor - Dr. Jack Kevorkian.

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» RE: THE SIMPLE TRUTH IS THIS: Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: THE SIMPLE TRUTH IS THIS: Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: THE SIMPLE TRUTH IS THIS: Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: THE SIMPLE TRUTH IS THIS: Posted by: Seranvali

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Wal, soo-prize, soo-prize!
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Posted by: willymack on Jun 2, 2009 9:57 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We've got homicidal nuts running around loose. Whoda thunk it? Along with everything else aimed at improving the human condition, mental health programs have had to yield to the wishes and desires of our corporate owners,as THEIR needs and desires as demi-gods are paramont. Howdya you like our capitalist paradise? Don't blame that numbskull o'reilly for the actions of someone else. Put the blame on the murderer and our extinct public health services. How many times must it be said that single-payer, government-run universal health care (which works very well in several countries, by the way)is what's most sorely needed as one remedy to this sad situation?

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Anti-Abortion is NOT Pro-Life
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Posted by: zim340 on Jun 2, 2009 9:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I really wish folks who like to view themselves as pro-life would use the more accurate moniker of anti-abortion. These folks are no more PRO-life than those who support a woman's right to choose what is in her best interest is anti-life. You don't like abortion. I get it. But your sentiment should stop there. You are not GOD, and you do not speak for GOD, and you do not have the right to tell other people how to live their lives or how they should care for their own bodies.

Dr. Tiller was killed by an "anti-abortionist" not a "pro-lifer!"

If all these so-called, self-righteous pro-lifers were really concerned about life, they would be protesting against the Iraq war, the death penalty, and so many other inhumane actions that deprive the already born the right to life.

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Debate is useless - Anti-women brigade is driven by the god delusion
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Posted by: MeyravLevine on Jun 2, 2009 10:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can one have even a rational argument and reach an acceptable argument with the religious crowd?

Their core belief is that life begins at conception. Yes, some of them may even think that life begins once the fetus reaches "viability", but the majority of them believe that abortion at any stage is wrong.

One only needs to look at the legal history of Roe v. Wade to realize that the rligious crowd won't stop at banning late-term abortion or the morning-after pills.

They'll go after contraceptions and beyond. They don't believe in individual's right to reproductive health and right to privacy.

As I noted in my exchanges with some of the more honest of the anti-women crowd, they believe the "right" of a fetus trumps that of a women, even when the pregnancy results from rape/incest.

They fundamentalists will only be satisfied when we are completely stripped off our right to privacy and health.

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the "Progressive" Pro-life (anti-choice) comments on this article..some thoughts
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Posted by: raginghormones on Jun 2, 2009 10:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sort of remind me of the "good Germans" who, with regards to the persecution of the Jews: "well..I can understand why it was necessary to take some stern measures against the Jews. But don't get me wrong... I did not approve of extermination".

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It seems to me
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Posted by: bettyn on Jun 2, 2009 10:57 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that if a TV network is promoting violent jihad, it should be investigated by the FCC and shut down. Free speech does not extend to calling for people to be killed in some sort of warped religious cause.

At the very least, the Tiller family should be able to sue the pants off Rupert and his bunch.

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» RE: It seems to me Posted by: rickiey
» RE: It seems to me Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: It seems to me Posted by: rickiey

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Putting and Keeping All Women in their Lowly Place
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Posted by: US Citizen on Jun 2, 2009 11:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everyone needs to know that the object of the whole Christian anti-abortion movement is to put and keep women and girls in a lowly place. The whole movement is about MAN power. A woman who supports the anti-abortion movement wants a return to Biblical times just like all those Muslim Taliban people. Muslim terrorists and Christian terrorists have a lot in common - keeping women down.

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» Proof that this is true Posted by: Ms. DuFontagne

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interesting..its always the same
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Posted by: sureshot45 on Jun 2, 2009 11:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
pro lifers need to dig themselves.

The fascists are some heavy dudes
They don't really give a damn about life
They just don't want a woman to
Control her body or have the right to choose
But baby that ain't nothin
They just want a male finger on the button
Because if you say war they will send them to die by the score


or..they will just blow up clinics and shoot doctors and patients. that gets the message across that they are pro life.

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So the liberal media begins doing what it says O'Reilly did . . .?
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Jun 2, 2009 3:12 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Murder sure as hell isn't the way to deal with "abortion;" unless, of course, you just call it "killing." Or is what happened to the "abortionist" "abortion" . . .?

We keep playing word games, building a reality that is only verbal definition. To pretend that because the Supreme Court ruled that federal and state governments could not prosecute one specific kind of killing in no way changes the reality of what it is, and the human race has long - since before the Ten Commandments - had an abhorence of murder.

To put it another way, when you kill someone you're going to piss somebody off. One of the oldest legal principles is that of voluntas non fit injuria - one who does something knowing the risks has no claim of having been injured when what he risked happens.

Killing is killing, and whether the courts say it is murder or not, killing begets killing. Any damned fool who believes a ruling by a panel of nefariously neurotic nitwits like our Supreme Court can change thousands of years of behavior is as big a nitwit as they are.

And by the way, why has nobody (but me) mentioned Doctor Jack Kavorkian - hmmmmm?

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Ok, hands up all those who give a sh#t about the rights of the foetus?
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Posted by: harryf200 on Jun 2, 2009 5:46 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.

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» RE: POVs- that's all they are... Posted by: WyrdSister

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Why was abortion made illegal in the first place?
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Posted by: abusedbypenguins on Jun 2, 2009 5:48 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because the most highly educated medical professional of 150 years ago didn't know as much about infection and its causes as the average 10th grader of today. It became a legal issue because women were dying of infection caused by abortion. A tiny nick on the uterus during a D&C without antibiotics will lead to a massive infection and death. This was all sorted out in the 20th century and then abortion became a moral issue rather than a medical issue. Induced abortion is a medical decision between a woman and her doctor and no one else's business. Anyone who strongly disagrees would have been right at home wearing a brown shirt in Germany 70 years ago or wearing a rag on his/her head in a crazy muslim country now.

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There is no "Common Ground"
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Posted by: leethompson on Jun 2, 2009 7:04 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"When it comes to abortion, there really is only one moral question: Will women be free to determine their own lives, including whether and when they will bear children, or will women be subjugated to patriarchal male authority and forced to breed against their will?"

I think this quote from Sunsara Taylor gets right to the heart of the matter.

You can read more from her article, "The Deadly Illusion of 'Common Ground' on Abortion - Response to Obama’s speech at Notre Dame on common ground and abortion"

You can read the whole article at http://www.revcom.us/a/166/ST_on_Obama-en.html

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Abortion is NOT a moral issue...
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Posted by: Bibsisis on Jun 2, 2009 7:04 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and men have no right to an opinion, period. When they can get pregnant, okay. It is not a man (who've made the laws, just as they did regarding witches who were thrown into water, and if they drowned, they were not witches; if they survived, they were and were put to death)who carries within his body which is biologically a parasite. No matter how wanted, facts are facts, and no man, no matter how much he loves and wants this prospective child can carry it or know what it is like.

Sometimes, a woman wants no more children and wants her husband/lover to have a vasectomy so birth control is not just hers; in those cases, if the man prefers not to, that is HIS choice, and he should not be harangued to have one. Of course, this often leads to no more sex withing marriage and sometimes divorce.

These are complex questions, but no doctor should be murdered for doing what women are protected from UNDER the law!

This is a woman's issue, not political, not religious, not moral, nor immoral. It concerns the right of a woman over her own body to do with as she will--as if men don't! The government nor religion have no place in the debate except to keep abortion/choice legal or illegal ones will continue as since humans figured out what caused pregnancy. No courts, no pro-lifers, ugh, what an ugly term, nor any pro-choicers had a sayso. As it should be.

It has all come from the Xian rightwingnutneocons, as if they and their daughters haven't had more abortions--and more divorces, incest, rape, and infanticide, homicide, patricide, fratricide, than any other group.

In this country, yes, the good ol' USA, abortion happened all the time during the settling of the colonies with nary a law against it, even by the damn Puritans who stoned people to death for being witches. What the people who preach like O'Reilly and Limbaugh is hatred--not included in free speech. I blame them and Fox (faux) news for much of the violence, racial, political, abortion, suicide, and murder for their inciting broadcasts daily to the mostly uneducated viewers. It's called "inciting to riot," and murder is its end.

Shame on all of them and all of you who somehow think Dr. Tiller who practiced medicine WITHIN THE LAW OF THIS COUNTRY who is now a martyr for his enlightened view that it was HIS job to protect the rights of women.

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» RE: Abortion is NOT a moral issue... Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: Abortion is NOT a moral issue... Posted by: countingdaisies

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The Threat is Much Broader
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Posted by: Lilly on Jun 2, 2009 7:38 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wish somebody important would start publicizing that the threat from the hard-core Right is broader than just about abortion. Townhall.com has been tolerating advocacy of murder for four years that I've been following it and presumably long before that; several townhall regulars routinely call for the murder of all Democrats, liberals, and gays and give instructions on how to accomplish this. TV figures hammer the message "We are fed up---it's time to rise up" and make the connection with the ubiquity of guns. An honored guest at Glenn Beck's Alamo "tea party" was an NRA rep. Since the Tiller murder they are doing what they do even better than they advocate murder, they are wrapping themselves in victimhood.

It's as if they constantly say bread, meat, mayo, mustard, pickles, buns, lettuce, panini grill but if anybody puts this together and says "you are suggesting a sandwich" they get all coy and offended and hide like little girls who got caught teasing the cat.

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The Dead Fetus
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Posted by: Lilly on Jun 2, 2009 7:43 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tonight on TV a woman was interviewed who worked with Dr Tiller. She said that when a baby dies in utero most physicians now require the mother to carry it until labor expels it but that Dr Tiller would remove the dead fetus and that many of their procedures were for what she called a demised fetus. I haven't heard this mentioned by any of the anti-Dr Tiller crowd. To ask a woman to carry her dead baby for weeks or months is revolting.

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» RE: The Dead Fetus Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: The Dead Fetus Posted by: smackley
» RE: The Dead Fetus Posted by: Seranvali
» RE: The Dead Fetus Posted by: Bibsisis

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allen
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Posted by: pursah on Jun 2, 2009 7:55 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These abortion nuts are terrorists. pure and simple. Just because they are white and label themselves Christian makes no difference. They are terrorists and should be dealt with accordingly with the measures detailed in the Patriot Act. Send them and their FOX NEWS incendiaries off to Poland!

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The red stain on the church floor
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Posted by: PaulK on Jun 2, 2009 8:02 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, I take a side. In the sense that I oppose the death penalty and I also oppose all war, I'm "Pro-Life". Concerning abortion, well, I kind of ignore the issue if I can.

I think that a couple of cells are a baby if the mother and father think it's a baby, and that it's a couple of cells if they don't. So, the whole difference is what people think.

Now, about the organized murder racket: I remember that not too many years ago, the Irish Republican Army shook the tin can in America to get contributions for weapons. These were Irish Roman Catholics and murderers of people too. Some people contributed so that Ireland would be one country on one island. Some said no, they didn't believe in that war. Eventually people made peace in Northern Ireland.

I see a trace of an organized murder racket in the abortion foes. Good Catholics and good Evangelicals don't want to go around whacking people like a drug cartel, but maybe with a few murders the others would be cowed and victory would be grasped. So there are maybe a few million Catholics and Evangelicals on the borderline, not sure if they want this bloodstain, but each contributing in their own way, some with money, some asking that they not know where the money went, some with a kind word. After one doctor in Florida was murdered, the guy who did it went back to the abortion foe picket line and they all held a prayer circle. Their group action said to me, "We are one in the Spirit, and the guy that one of us just whacked isn't!"

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» RE: it's not a medical procedure Posted by: WyrdSister

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Question to HarryF200: Do you drive a car?
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Posted by: crashgrab on Jun 3, 2009 2:19 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I posted this earlier, but I wasn't sure you'd see it.

Harry, what's your reasoning for being anti-abortion? Do you feel abortion is murder? I ask these questions for the following reason...

Do you have such awfully strong opinions about other accidental events:

Do you never drive a car because you might accidentally injure or kill someone? If it's not ok to have sex because one might get pregnant (and shouldn't have an abortion), then why is it ok to drive even though we might injure or kill someone. By the way, last time I checked there were way more car accidents than abortions.

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» So, an abortion is an accident? Posted by: countingdaisies

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Harryf200's Orwellian Society
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Posted by: crashgrab on Jun 3, 2009 2:45 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Harryf200 thinks fetus should have equal rights to other human beings. Let's induldge him in the following scenario of the society he wishes for.

Here's an Orwellian version of what would happen in a society run by Harryf200:

How do we know that a woman is pregnant and a fetus needs to be protected?

Women would have to go in for monthly government check ups to see if they're pregnant.

Once we know a woman is pregnant, how do we keep the fetus safe?

We impose a different set of laws on pregnant women telling them activities and substances they can and can't be in contact with.

What if they woman won't pay heed to such restrictions?

We put her under house arrest or lock her up to keep her from harming the fetus.

What if she harms the fetus, let's say it dies, doing one of these activities/substances (and by the way who gets to decide what activities/substances are on that list) even in the early stage of pregnancy like 7 weeks?

She is put on trial for murder just like someone who bludgeons their wife. Oh yeah, and doctors would be put on trial for murder too if they provide abortions.


If you think this couldn't happen check out other societies who don't respect reproductive rights and see what happens to women.

What happens to the birth control pill?

Since there isn't much scientific proof for or against the possibility of an embryo being able to come into being and then lost before four weeks. The birth control pill and other medicines that work like it are outlawed. Women who are found using them are committing the crime of murder and sent to jail.



Don't think this would happen, check out the other societies that don't respect reproductive rights and then see how they treat women. Most of the societies that don't respect reproductive rights are third world country and kill women for all sorts of nasty undemocratic reasons. In the ones that are more modern, like Brazil, I've read of women going to jail for using certain types of medicines that might be abortifacients.

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Women's rights above all others . . .
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Posted by: countingdaisies on Jun 3, 2009 2:58 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why don't all you women's rights activists, who don't care about anyone but yourselves, go blow off steam on one of those female blogs . . . what is it now? Feminazi or Femifisting, or something like that.

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Tiller did not perform ordinary abortions
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Posted by: blschneider on Jun 3, 2009 9:52 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sorry about Tiller's death, but I'm also sorry about the deaths of late-term fetuses. I read an article (not by right-wing pro-lifers, just a factual description) of the way these babies are dispatched. It's horrific & painful. At least sedation could be used.

I'm pro-choice, but late-term partial-birth abortions are truly murder.

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» I call bull**** Posted by: dudelette
» RE: I call bull**** Posted by: dazzle59

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It is Long Past Time...
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Posted by: Jayzer on Jun 3, 2009 9:53 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is long past time that Randall Terry and Operation Rescue be investigated, because he was also VERY close to the scene when Dr. Barnett Slepian was murdered in his home near Buffalo, NY in 1998.

It is long past time that Operation Rescue be investigated under the RICO statutes.

It is also long past time that women's health providers, including physicians who provide abortions, be provided with armed guards and NOT merely bullet-proof vests.

It is long past time that if the US Federal Government and various state agencies will not make any moves to protect women and their health care providers from the armed fanatics, that folks in the movement begin to arm themselves.

Non-violence is a fine ideal, but it stops making sense when survival is at stake. Allowing ourselves and our allies to be slaughtered is stupid, reckless and irresponsible.

If the fascist right wingers want to fight, then let's prepare to beat them!

Finally, it is long past time to say loud and clear: DEFEND A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE!

To Randall Terry and his ilk: You have killed your last abortion provider with impunity!

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» Yes! Posted by: dudelette
» RE: It is Long Past Time... Posted by: Seranvali

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Okay, here's a challenge for those against abortion
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Posted by: Kym525 on Jun 3, 2009 9:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The so-called "pro-life" movement is stacked to high heaven with people who are absolute HYPOCRITES. Everything that can be done and should be done to reduce the numbers of abortions in this country, well, they're against those too. I get the strange feeling that it's sheer selfishness and not a desire to care for the unborn that is part and parcel of the pro-lifers.

What you all fail to realize is that should you somehow manage to make abortion illegal, your actions will do NOTHING to stop a desparate woman from seeking one. And if we're talking about class or race, rich women will always be able to secure one from either a trusted and safe medical facility (on the hush) or travel to another country. Poor women will simply have to take their chances with pregnancy or a back-alley procedure that will endanger their lives.


This is a short list of the problems I have with this movement:

1) You don't believe in birth control;
2) You don't believe in age-appropriate, comprehensive sex education--which INCLUDES abstinence--something even famous single-mom Bristol Palin says is unreasonable;
3) You don't believe in allowing single parents and gay and lesbian parents to adopt--why not if children need loving and stable homes;
4) You don't believe in cross-cultural/transracial adoptions--don't even get me started;
5) You believe in the death penalty; just ask Ann Coulter;
6) You are against social services that assist women and children - most of the strident pro-lifers are against welfare and a decent minimum wage;
7) You are against decent and equal access to health care--your talking heads are looking to battle Obama on health care for all;
8) You are against equal access to education
9) You care nothing for the tough decision a woman has to make and show no compassion for her, regardless of whatever reason she may choose to end a pregnancy
10) You believe in punishing the victims of rape or incest by forcing them to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term

Pick and choose from the list, but the bottom line is that the so-called "pro-life' movement is everything BUT that. If there are ANY sane and rational members in this movement, theit voices are being drowned out by the demogogues. I am asking for any rational pro-life person to take back their movement from the psychos who are responsible for so many acts of terrorism against clinics, against women and against doctors. This is NOT an insurmountable issue, but the pro-life side has GOT to understand that an ounce of prevention is worth the cure. Support access to family planning and adoptions by gay and lesbian people. Moreover, let's start having the adult discussion about sex and sexuality.

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» I really like what you wrote Posted by: debpark
» Amen, Kym and Deb! Posted by: dazzle59
» RE: I really like what you wrote Posted by: theblackgeorgecarlin
» RE: I really like what you wrote Posted by: theblackgeorgecarlin

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the need for anti-hate laws...
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Posted by: Bearzerker on Jun 4, 2009 2:44 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... is self evident from this hate inspired murder!

why do the federals pretend we're a free people and say they're protecting constitutional rights when they've been usurping all powers since 1968 under the guise of national security...
How bloated does the Federal bureaucracy need to get before we figure out the simple fact that they're only serving themselves?
Just follow the money... corporate money too and you'll see just how much has been lost in the past 50 years!

The Democrats won`t protect our values...
the lobby interests are to well funded to allow them any freedom of action.
The Republicans started this so they won't or can't either...
besides the fact that they were installed by their corporate crony friends.

The US is reaping what it sowed and the freedom meter cant fall any further!
Its funny that some rights can be devalued due to national security but anti-hate laws will never see the light of day because... what again?

land of the free indeed!
Long live the CORPORATE STATES OF AMERICA... not!

-- Mel Gibson in "The Patriot"
I would rather have 1 tyrant 3000 miles away then 3000 tyrants 1 mile away

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A murderer murders a mass murderer...
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Posted by: PROFPETE on Jun 4, 2009 5:16 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My family, I included, have been Progressives and for more than a century.

A murderer murders a mass-murderer. I see no reason either for tears or rejoicing. One man demented out of passion kills a man who murdered the unborn in the face of God for profit and or hatred, so who is the winners and losers?

Hitler loved abortion for those he hated and for that we branded him a demon. Americans have either forgotten or are ignorant of the abortion movement's slimy beginnings initiated by wealthy, Republicans and aimed with non-too subtle propaganda on why minorities should not grow future voters to unseat the Republicans because they feared the growth of minorities, Mexicans, Blacks and Italian Catholics.

I voted for Barack Obama because I believed he had the common sense not to support abortion or abortion counseling. As he said anyone with an “unwanted pregnancy” should pray and seek neutral help. You say nothing of the guilt and depression of mothers who have abortions, because you are ignorant of, or are ignoring the repercussions of murdering a living being.

Unsuccessful in those attempts to motivate Progressive Republican Politicians Like Teddy Roosevelt the "movement" decided to infiltrate the Democratic Party to undermine their target’s (minorities and their unborn) protection by Democratic Progressives. Alas, those careless low-lifers then entered the Democratic Party because their impiety, stupidity, bigotry, mean-spirited, Unenlightenment, and ignorance made them outcasts for righteous Progressives in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

The modern allowance of abortion the last 30+ years was/is based on a lie by Norma McCovney to a congressional committee (which I watched) about a rape which never occurred and to which she admitted recently as she converted to Catholicism. Me-FIRSTISM/selfishness has gripped the Worst Generation of Americans since the 1921 Tulsa OK Holocaust of Black people, those who favor the murder of the helpless unborn, immature human beings.

I am and have always been an FDR Progressive who fought, argued, and wrote for black and women's rights and who with my dad opened the doors for the first women construction workers in Illinois just as my granddad did for blacks. This is no women's issue it is a right to life issue, which I thought we'd won during WW II, but apparently, baby hatred in league with the Demons of real flesh and blood continues.

Your article is an example of Hate Group in action slandering the Culture of Life. How are you any different than Adolph Hitler who found abortion a perfect example of the “Final Solution?” Now for you the target is Christians replacing Jews. America is growing its own fascists. In that endeavor you are closer the to those responsible for the deaths of 5000 American troops and one million Iraqi’s and this depression and the bankruptcy of millions. The Bushite warmongers, who broke the Culture of Life, caused all of which.

The Culture of Life stands against Mass-murder, torture, preemptive war, capital punishment, casual cosmetic use of pesticides and herbicides which have been found in the fatty tissues of 96% of women with breast cancer and much more. You stand with the 19th Century Republicans who wanted to sterilize men and women or abort all children of minorities, all of those with IQ’s below 100. You, author is a hate monger and subject to the Patriot Act for Religious persecution and domestic terrorism for you is attempting to subject those who stand against Abortion to assassination. You are thus also a mass-murderer wanting to kill those who want to save the lives of the unborn. You would kill to promote more killing and justify the murders of the unborn. How sick is that?

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» 'the unborn' Posted by: mjglow
» RE: A murderer murders Posted by: WyrdSister

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What you are dealing with are self righteous individuals...
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Jun 4, 2009 5:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...who use their god as a cover for their version of evil. This is what you get from the brain dead religious.

When have you EVER heard of an atheist doing such evil in the name of atheism? It is ALWAYS a religious person.

It had been somewhat, (but not anymore) amazing to me that the "right to lifers" always like to kill…just on their terms…just like all religious organizations. Oh, they talk peace, love, etc. etc. but their actions speak even louder.

If abortion were outlawed, it would still occur, it is just that it would take place under unsafe conditions, by unskilled people. It would end two lives in many cases. But of course that does not make any sense to the self righteous, religious morons.

Examine the religious principles which have, in fact, prevailed in the world, and you will scarcely be persuaded that they are anything but sick men's dreams.

This once great country is in danger of being dominated by people ignorant enough to take a few ancient Babylonian legends as the canons of modern culture. Our scientific men are paying for their failure to speak out earlier. There is no use now talking evolution to these people. Their ears are stuffed with Genesis.

In all my lifetime of history reading I find not one instance where the Christian creed of itself prevented a cruelty or an atrocity, but I find innumerable instances where it provoked the vilest evils and the most fiendish cruelties.

The real reason for the persistence of the witchcraft idea was that Christian authorities couldn't let it die, without admitting that God's word was wrong, and God's servants had committed millions of legal murders and tortured millions of helpless people without cause.

No matter how much reasonable people, even here, might hammer away at their scientific and philosophical points, you are helpless and a laughing-stock if that were all you had.

It is religion that recruits their squadrons. Tens of millions of Americans, who neither know nor understand the actual arguments for - or even against - evolution, abortion, etc. march in the army of the night, their Babbles held high. And they are a strong and frightening force, impervious to, and immunized against, the feeble lance of mere reason.

The problem is that religion always gets a pass as the problem, because such evil is viewed as an anomaly. When is reality all religion, which is based on mythology and/or superstition is the root cause.

When religion dies, so will such evil perpetrated on Dr Tiller.

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Abortion in the Bible is NOT Murder
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Posted by: dudelette on Jun 4, 2009 10:10 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the law given to the Hebrews, if men fight and a pregnant woman is injured and loses the baby, the man whose fault it is is NOT put to death. He has to pay a monetary fine. Exodus 21:22. Although, if he kills the mother, his life is forfeit. Which life do you think God held in higher regard?

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A not so outstanding lack of compassion
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Posted by: Kym525 on Jun 4, 2009 10:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading through all the self-identified "pro-life" posts, I found absolutely little to NO sympathy for the women who have either undergone an abortion or for those who are struggling with the choice to do so. I find little to no understanding that bombing and vandalizing clinics isn't about just stopping abortion, but jeopardizes the health of ALL women WHO ARE NOT terminating a pregnancy. These clinics are often the only agencies that offer pap smears to detect cancer, HIV testing, and basic gynocological services that are more affordable.

I see a lot of high-faultin' rhetoric about Hitler, Mao, Saddam and mass murder, but nary a word of hope or understanding for the women they would criminalize should abortion be made illegal. Lots of sympathy for the unborn and their rights, but nothing about the children already born who are neglected, abused and even killed.

There are as many reasons women seek abortion as there are women. The word "choice" really doesn't begin to scratch the surface of what goes through the mind of a woman (and perhaps her family and her partner) who perhaps see no other way. A rape or incest victim is already traumatized by their experience. Compound that with an unwanted pregnancy and she suffers TWICE. Women who find out their child will be born without a heart or a brain, who would suffer should they live. Women who are in danger of losing their lives should they continue with a pregnancy. Poor women who cannot afford another child--and many pro-lifers decry welfare and other social services that aid the poor, calling it a "reward" for bad choices.

Contrary to what way too many pro-lifers believe, it is not selfishness on the part of women seeking abortion. It is not used as birth control as so many like to claim--because that's some pretty expensive birth control, considering that the procedures run from $500.00 and higher. Low-income women and working-class women, often lacking even basic health care, cannot afford it. And let's not even talk about access.

I extol all moderate and rational pro-life believers to make sure that every child, born and unborn, is wanted, loved and given the basic necessities in life so they can thrive. Let's give our children already here the knowledge about their sexuality--free from guilt, shame and fear--so that they can make responsible decisions regarding sex. Let's change a culture that on one hand demonizes sex and yet on the other commodifies it.

Pro-lifers: END YOUR HYPOCRISY NOW!!!

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» RE: compassion Posted by: WyrdSister
» Isn't Planned Parenthood only for women? Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: you are resorting to insults? Posted by: WyrdSister
» Me too! Posted by: dazzle59
» Excellent post, Kym! Posted by: dazzle59

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Re:religion Sets The Stage, This is Sickening
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Posted by: roddma on Jun 6, 2009 11:55 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree. with This is Sickeninmg. The choice start the not after. Not everyone uses religion to this extent. While it is our bodies, there are other choices. I will gladly take any babies you dont want off your hands. I have never seen so much hatred for one group.Hatred asnd discrimination is wrong. Not all Christians are cynical. Who says a pro-life person did this?

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Radicalized Christianity
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Posted by: JefFlyingV on Jun 7, 2009 2:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think these people have always been with us, but they have been more radicalized. These people tend to look at the past as the good old days (especially the 1950's as the last glorious decade). These people do not believe in equality with people from divergent groups and make a use of the Bible for these beliefs.

They are now God's messengers and doers. They don't believe in the constitution, but try to make use of the laws that can propel their agenda. Jim Jones, Ruby Ridge, Roeder, Rush Limbaugh, white supremists...etc, are all part of the hidden and ugly fabric of radical fundamentalism of Christianity. They may be marginalized, but they are a larger and more vocal group than we think.

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Progressive Who Is Pro-life but Recognizes Abortion IS Still Legal
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Posted by: newsjunkie on Jun 7, 2009 12:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pro-life Progressives may want to check out Consistent Life, a network of people committed to non-violence all of kinds: http://www.consistent-life.org/. This group speaks out against the violence of abortion--BUT also against the violence of capital punishment, war, racism, climate change, and poverty.

Consistent Life Statement of Purpose, via their website: "We are committed to the protection of life, which is threatened in today's world by war, abortion, poverty, racism, capital punishment and euthanasia. We believe that these issues are linked under a 'consistent ethic of life.' We challenge those working on all or some of these issues to maintain a cooperative spirit of peace, reconciliation, and respect in protecting the unprotected. We serve the anti-violence community by connecting issues, building bridges, and strengthening the case against each kind of socially-approved killing by consistently opposing them all."

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mvendetto
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Posted by: mvendetto on Jun 7, 2009 2:43 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Derail the conversation with conservative talking points ? Are you saying you won't here comments against the " Reich " or the "state"
My daughter was born , what I later to find out was in her 2nd trimester ! She is a beautiful little girl , with thankfully no developmental issues. Make no mistake about it , if the mother's LIFE is in danger than an abortion at this stage should be the mothers option , but because someone is afraid to tell there parents , or it's inconvenient , or for any other lame reason to abort an otherwise viable , living baby is , sorry to tell truth , pathetic. The murder of this Dr.is also uncalled for. I don't know how this Dr. could live with himself , in what he did for a living. What ever happen to responcibility ? I'M SORRY , but abortion beyond six months should be illegal , accept if the mother's life is threatened , not incovienenced.
Mike Vendetto

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» RE: mvendetto Posted by: Seranvali

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G. GORDON LIDDY WAS ON WKY RADIO THE DAY THAT THE OKLAHOMA CITY
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Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Jun 8, 2009 10:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
bombing occurred. He was most assurredly the inspiration for the bomber. Right after the bombing G. Gordon Liddy was taken off the local radio and the radio station was leased out and operated by a seperate corporation. Lets see here. We had the Unitarian church killings in Kentucky. We had the killing of the democratic party chairman in Arkansas. Oh I forget its not illegal for a republican to kill a democrat. They have been doing it in the workplace for generations.

Right wing terrorism is just nearly legal in the United States. When they finish with the abortion doctors which of us will they start on next. You don't actually think that they will stop do you.

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Little One
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Posted by: Little One on Jun 11, 2009 6:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some people who support abortion were fooled by the pro abortion fallacy that a fertilized egg is not a child.... nor is an undifferentiated mass of cells but this is a lie. If not a child what ? Each one of us reading and submitting comments were once a tiny collection of cells in a womb. Are we not glad we were allowed to live?
I pray for the Tiller family ;it is awful to lose a loved one through an act of violence and I also pray for Scott Roeder who sadly like Dr Tiller resorted to violence as a solution Abortion is never a solution for anyone It is always a death sentence for the baby and a life sentence for the poor mother A deliberate decision to abort goes totally against the natural instincts of a woman to nurture and protect and it is very damaging to the body heart and mind of any poor soul who endures such an experience.If we really care about women's health we can neither condone allow or encourage abortion.There are some things in life which are simply wrong Both slavery and abortion treat a human being as if it is a disposable asset. The child in the womb is not the property of the mother nor is it the property of the father It is a new citizen with rights that should be upheld and respected in Law. "

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» RE: Little One Posted by: morticia
» RE: Little One Posted by: Little One
» RE: Little One Posted by: morticia
» RE: Little One Posted by: Little One
» RE: Little One Posted by: morticia
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As one of many progressive pro-lifers
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Posted by: rakista on Jun 1, 2009 3:10 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since Tiller's murder it seems like the pro-choice folks are coming out the woodwork with relatively immature responses like this.

Look, you do yourselves no favour attempting to demonize and dehumanize all pro-lifers as some sort of bible-thumping, gun toting nutjobs as the social dynamic underlying the abortion debate is shifting to the younger generations who are moderately more pro-life than pro-choice.

If the progressive movement in the United States is to attract that newer generation there must be some acknowledgement that well over 30% of the people you stand with on issues of Gay Marriage, Torture, Death Penalty and Poverty are Pro-Life on abortion.

We are sick of your hateful stereotypes.

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» Just admit it... Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Thank you Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» They aren't "pro-lifers" Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: They aren't "pro-lifers" Posted by: BPomeroy
» Silly zizizzi! Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Silly ideas Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Silly ideas Posted by: PopRox80
» RE: Silly zizizzi! Posted by: MelStL
» RE: Silly zizizzi! Posted by: MelStL
» Good point, maxfrisson ... Posted by: harryf200
» Oh, are you now? Posted by: Ms. DuFontagne
» And we are sick of you Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: And we are sick of you Posted by: Quannah
» More on hypocrisy Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: As one of many progressive pro-lifers Posted by: buschthebearrefreshing
» RE: As one of many Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: I am not impressed Posted by: WyrdSister
» No problem Posted by: pelican beak
» Thank you, MelStL Posted by: hagwind
» First, Do NO Harm ... Posted by: Ligeia
» RE: First, Do NO Harm ... Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: First, Do NO Harm ... Posted by: lively56
» RE: First, Do NO Harm ... Posted by: MelStL
» RE: no harm done ... Posted by: WyrdSister
» So, Ligeia..... Posted by: morticia
» RE: First, Do NO Harm ... Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: such venom Posted by: WyrdSister
» I am psychologically well Posted by: crashgrab

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Karma....
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Posted by: MotherLodeBeth on Jun 1, 2009 3:20 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Call it Karma, or what goes around comes around. People and even government reap what they sow, be it invading other countries like Iraq or even someone like Dr. Tiller.

Fact is, late term abortions like he did, are simply not something one needs unless the woman's life is actually at risk and then even most non religious owned hospitals would do those.

This isn't pre 1970's when even birth control was illegal for married couples. Now we have so many forms of reliable birth control that there should be so few abortions. But we live in a do my own thing society, or a society who wants someone else to help bail us out of messes we get into.

So sorry, while I am pro-choice in the very early weeks of an UNintended pregnancy I cannot support the majority of late term abortions. And I say this as someone who has a child born with medical issues. And a baby that was lost pre birth.

~Beth~

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» RE: Karma.... Posted by: dimityrose
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» RE: Karma.... Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Karma.... Posted by: amalahyrdaya
» RE: Karma.... Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Karma.... Posted by: Pegaleg
» RE: Karma.... Posted by: clvngodess
» RE: Karma.... Posted by: Bibsisis

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already two posts with hate speech in response
[Report this comment]
Posted by: goatini on Jun 1, 2009 3:26 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ladies (if you are indeed ladies, which somehow i doubt), your hate speech is wrapped in pretty shiny ribbons and bows. we see who you really are.

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» female autonomy cannot wait Posted by: goatini
» RE: female autonomy cannot wait Posted by: Seranvali
» rabid pro lifers! Posted by: WyrdSister
» You're kidding me - right? Posted by: harryf200
» Thanks for the response Posted by: Curio
» RE: Thanks for the response Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Thanks for the response Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Thanks for the response Posted by: Seranvali
» oh Purple Girl Posted by: goatini
» Gee, where's vasumurti? Posted by: morticia
» RE: hate speech Posted by: WyrdSister
» you misread my post Posted by: goatini

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Anthony D'Auria
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Posted by: Tony D on Jun 1, 2009 4:17 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a democracy it is the pregnant persons choice as to what she wants to do with her body. The fetus is still part of her until it is born. We have enough insane fundamentalist mothers who talk to their god and kill their children after they are born. They are the ones who are evil.

The lesson here is that Christians are not ever supposed to kill because someone has a different opinion then they do.

They should arrest all the anti-abortion people who parade in front of the clinic and send them away to an insane asylum until they are cured. While they are at it they may as well send Bill O'Reiley with them.

Proof of the adage that: "their are good people and evil people in the world but to make a good person evil it takes religion."

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» RE: Anthony D'Auria Posted by: Bibsisis

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this is sickening
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Posted by: cherylsass123 on Jun 1, 2009 5:06 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and what is worse is that this operation rescue , so many of their follower churches; actually condone this. yes, there are arguments against late term abortions like Dr Tiller did. and true, if these same women seeking these abortions were to instead have used birth control, there would not be the need for so many abortions. but then, is that not what Obama's been saying all along as to how, if you start teaching sensible sex education, NOT that useless " abstinence" horseshit, from about age 7 or 8 on like they already do in the Netherlands and even Italy; then you would actually end up reducing the need for so many abortions. it has been proven that , in the Netherlands where they've been long teaching comprehensive sex education which works; prevention though birth control actually has reduced the abortion rate to only 1/10 th of what it is here in USA!

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» Use condoms! Posted by: nate
» Poor bloody excuse! Posted by: harryf200
» Men don't need a dildo, silly. Posted by: harryf200
» Child-bearing isn't worthless Posted by: crashgrab
» Be lesbian or gay! Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Be lesbian or gay! Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: this is sickening Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: this is sickening Posted by: Seranvali

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» RE: You get what you give Posted by: kimpohl
» RE: You get what you give Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: You get what you give Posted by: gilliani
» They aren't "children" Posted by: nate
» RE: You get what you give Posted by: crashgrab

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Internal US Terrorism shows the fear factor once again!
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Posted by: Bearzerker on Jun 1, 2009 8:25 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
wonder how many more liberties will be cloistered in the name of safety?
or how many countries will need to be invaded to soothe the frantic news propagandists spewing hatred in the name of free speech!

religion is freaky in the US, but all i can say is that most peoples vision of heaven, is my vision of hell!

and people wonder why we loose faith...
in religion, politics, relationships etc

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Whose Ox is Being Gored, and Does It Matter?
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Posted by: DrBrian on Jun 2, 2009 12:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a problem with this author's argument. Suppose a death penalty opponent describes it as murder; should he or she be blamed if someone kills a judge or governor? Or if someone criticizes the military for using cluster bombs and white phosphorus on civilians and calls it murder, and someone then (as just happened) takes revenge on a soldier, is he or she to blame?

We must make a distinction between clear advocacy of criminal behavior and expression of opinions that might contribute to an unhinged person's taking it upon him- or herself to avenge perceived wrongdoing.

The First Amendment is essential to democracy and should allow for unhindered expression of opinions, even overheated or offensive ones, as long as they stop short of advocating crimes.

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» There is no DEMOCRACY here Posted by: dimityrose
» Agree Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Agree Posted by: Seranvali

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Face-to-face discussion groups
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Posted by: atheistcable on Jun 2, 2009 2:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here in the Twin Cities, a group of us, both Christian and atheists, formed an organization called the Secular Bible Study (SBS). And it's popular. As an atheist, I get to meet Christians under, shall I say, supervised conditions. We meet in a public school--but meeting in a church wouldn't bother me in the least--in the evening and spend about two hours together, but it's limited to discussing the bible.

When we register for classes, there is a blank on their form asking what our religion is or, as in my case, no religion. Members of Minnesota Atheists are heavily involved.

There are two leaders: Dr. Grant Steves, an atheist, who has a doctorate in theology, and the other leader is Chester Barber, a Christian who is also working on his doctorate in theology.

As people are coming into the room, the two leaders start assembling us in groups of 6 or 8. You will see both atheists and theists with bibles in their hands. The leaders make sure that we're as evenly divided as possible, theists and atheists. They hand us introductory literature and questionnaires we're to fill out so that we can give a verbal report at the end. We have scholars who come to our class and give a 30-minute presentation.

We talk about what a god is and compare that to gods of other cultures. We discuss belief, sins, morals, how and if the stories in the OT/NT are relevant to our lives (most are not), and where atheists and theists get their morals from.

I don't follow the rules exactly. Occasionally, I bring up topics such as abortion and gay marriage which, especially the abortion issue, engages the group.

All of us have fun. We never come close to having heated arguments. We define our words, we look to evidence, and if there is no evidence for a particular claim, we simply drop the issue. Sometimes people exchange email addresses and continue the discussion on their own time.

Here in the Twin Cities, there is no organized group where the public can gather, to talk about abortion--or the drug war. Many women who are members of Minnesota Atheists are interested in discussing abortion and I am working presently to organize a discussion group based on the SBS format. I wanted to do this some time ago, but the assassination of Dr. Tiller has given this project a boost.

Not all atheists are pro-Choice. I've met a few men who are disturbingly anti-Choice. My explanation is that individuals can rise above the god concept, but they bring with them many ghosts from their former religious life. A few heterosexual males are also uncomfortable around the few gays that are active in our organization. (Women always seem to be more emotionally well-adjusted than men.)