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Reproductive Justice and Gender

Note to Nervous Would-Be Dads: Having Kids Doesn't Look 'Gay'

By Vanessa Richmond, The Tyee. Posted April 27, 2009.


What is it with those men on cusp of middle age who see their masculine identity threatened by the act of fathering a child?
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But, according to Kimmel, the Baby Bailers "believe that a grown-up relationship, with a grown-up woman, is a loss... And what is lost is fun," whatever the age.

When they flick on the TV, they see their fears reinforced. Shows like Two and a Half Men, How I Met Your Mother and Rules of Engagement "basically portray singleness as fun and married life as a kind of compromise at best, and drudgery at worse," says Kimmel. Consider, as well, pre-wedding rituals. "When a woman is getting married, her friends take her out to celebrate. When a man is getting married, his guy friends take him out for an elegiac last night of freedom, to get him drunk and laid, because he'll never get to do that again: she's trapped you, she's caught you."

But that myth contradicts the data, according to Kimmel: married men are much happier than unmarried men. In many cases, they gain a chef, a laundress and a sex partner. Married men have much more sex than unmarried men and are less likely to see therapists than unmarried ones. (Married women, on the other hand, tend to have lower happiness levels and are more likely to see therapists than unmarried ones).

"The more men are sort of grown up -- the more they do housework and child rearing -- the happier they are, the happier the kids are, and the happier the woman is," says Kimmel.

Don't tell that the Baby Bailer, and don't expect the expanding brood of macho Brad Pitt to hold sway. As one Baby Bailer told me, the rich dad is different. "They don't have to give anything up. They can just hire people to do everything, and still have fun and have a life."

"Giving things up," is a dreaded concept I've hear a lot in my conversations with Baby Bailers.

But Neal Pollack, author of Alternadad, a book about his quest to retain his identity after becoming a father, says "My wife and I played more video games than ever the first six months after our kid was born. I mean, all the kid is doing is eating and crapping. Any dad who is a gamer before is still a gamer."

And though it's harder to go out with friends as much, "if they're real buddies they'll still be there."

"Men are afraid that fatherhood is going to take over their identity. And it does for a little while, but if they want to, they can integrate fatherhood into their previous identity." Pollack found the first couple of years to be "an emotional maelstrom," but now finds his old self is still there.

It doesn't help that men get a lot of messages that their old self must transform into some kind of uber-father they never knew. UBC sociologist Nathanael Lauster says expectations are increasing. While people used to put their baby in a drawer in a bedroom of a rental apartment a few decades ago with full social sanction, now elaborate staging is often considered necessary: a house with yard (what he calls "the moral home"), a car, expensive strollers, baby clothes, nannies and so on. That's why he says affluent men might be more willing to become fathers -- since they know they can afford those "requirements." Plus, Lauster says affluent men they have less fear of being labeled a "deadbeat dad," a term men can acquire for contributing insufficient money or even time.

For every Baby Bailer who worries he'll need to work harder, there's one so immersed in his career that he's terrified of sacrificing it to the new definition of family life. "At one point," Lauster says, "there wouldn't be this idea that men would have to give up work to become a father. Men would actually intensify their work commitments than they would prior to have children and that's how they would demonstrate their commitment." Exhibit A: the 1960 version of father portrayed as Don Draper on Mad Men.

But a note to Baby Bailers: Evidence suggests that men's work performance can actually increase after becoming a father. "There's the myth of the unencumbered worker," says Kimmel. "That worker is gendered and it's male. We think those are the best employees -- they have no trouble making it to a 7 a.m. meeting, or staying late. But when you're a parent, you're far more reliable and far more likely to remain loyal to the company, especially if the company is flexible."

But hey, there I go again, engaging in rational talk about something as fundamentally emotion driven as gender identity. There's a commercial for the Hummer SUV, in which a bunch of guys is working out at the gym, and an announcer asks the man with the white mini van, the symbolic family vehicle, to come forward as he's left his lights on. No one does. Kimmel says the message is, "You henpecked, feminized pussy."

So it's social forces, I get it. But I'm thinking if "gay" means a grown up man, well, heterosexual breeding culture could really use some.


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See more stories tagged with: children, stereotypes, fatherhood

Tyee contributing editor Vanessa Richmond writes the Schlock and Awe column about popular culture and the media.

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What is in it for the man?
Posted by: Honky The Antichrist on Apr 27, 2009 12:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is in it for the man?

Because of No fault divorces, men risk:

- losing their house and pension
- having to maintain “the life style she’s become accustomed to” (even though he’s become accustomed to having your laundry don and the occasional blow job)
- Certainty of losing their children.
- unreasonable child support payments that are almost always paid to the women

There is no benefit for an American man to marry.
Western women are finally getting the husbands they deserve - none.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: What is in it for the man? Posted by: peteralter
» Poor baby! Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Poor baby! Posted by: MT512
» RE: Poor baby! Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: What is in it for the man? Posted by: shellac'd
» You got an occasional BJ? Posted by: cvstoner
» I feel that way. Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing
» RE: What is in it for the man? Posted by: DHFabian
» Nice fantasy. Posted by: cvstoner
Exactly. Gender identity. That's the problem.
Posted by: irishfolkie on Apr 27, 2009 1:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm pro-feminist, not into team sports, a vegetarian, most of my friends are girls, not into horror movies... (I could go on!) but I'm still a guy. But since I don't match conventional masculine stereotypes, guys would say I'm "gay". Not only is it insulting to gays to use the word as a form of abuse, but the truth is, I'm "straight to the point of boring myself", (to quote Stuart Murdoch). And I know girls who have the same problem : they're expected to conform to "feminine" gender stereotypes... but that's just not the way they are ! So it doesn't surprise me one bit that middle-aged men don't want to be fathers. It's seen as "uncool", "unmanly", and, as Vanessa said, it's labelled "gay".

Saddly, gender stereotyping isn't just a conservative problem. I got married just before turning 20. Unusual choice, I know. But it's my choice. Thing is, some of my mates more or less abandoned me after that. Why ? Cause it's not "cool". My friends, who were liberals/left-libertarians like myself, just couldn't accept it. They claimed to support alternative lifestyles and freedom, but if one of their mates (me) decided to do something "different" or deemed socially unncaceptable in the leftist community (getting married young), that wasn't okay. How hypocritical can you be!
I wouldn't ever impose my ideas on others. I wouldn't even recommend other people to get married young or get married at all. It doesn't work for everyone. But it works for me. We live in a small rented flat, we don't have cars, let alone a yard. But we're perfectly happy. And more liberal than ever!

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OW. This sucks so much it makes my head hurt
Posted by: Erik1968 on Apr 27, 2009 1:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So let me see if I have this straight: women cannot be complete without having a baby, so they give up NOTHING when they reproduce, right? Seriously?

When was this article written, 1960? I know lots of guys who weren't sure if they could give up their buddies. And guess what? THEY DIDN'T. They got DIVORCED. They got to go back to all the fun and fucking they had when they were single.

I have no idea what a "baby bailer" is. I assumed it was one of the MANY guys I know who had a kid, freaked at the responsibility, and used rampant infidelity to escape to the relative comfort of weekend-dad. Or better yet, every-other-weekend-dad.

Someone needs to write about this trend which I see far more than I can ever remember: guys bailing within months after birth. At least my parents (and most of my friend's parents) held on until we were teenagers. I feel like gen xer dads have no stomach for responsible parenting.

So who gets to be the "gay" one? Mom! She gets stuck with 17+ years of responsibility because she convinced her "baby bailer" to give in.

Seriously, this article makes my head hurt. Women are people too. they have fun. I swear. They miss it when they have kids, and they ESPECIALLY miss it when their Peter Pan husbands hop on the first teenage pussy OUT of their nuclear family.

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» Sensitive men? Posted by: BlueTigress
» Thank you, Erik Posted by: truthlover
And we though it was the conceit of men to objectify women...
Posted by: batmagoo on Apr 27, 2009 1:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps Miss Richmond’s confusion stems from having primitive male friends whose grasp of language allows for little subtlety – I am a straight man in his forties – not interested in marriage or child-rearing, and I have never heard other men in my situation refer to fatherhood as “gay.” Merely as a “pain in the ass,” or a "societal scam." Miss Richmond’s use of the term “Baby Bailer” is a complete giveaway: It would take a serious case of male objectification to reduce the assumed “function” of a modern man to mean that of an automatic provider, whose responsibility is to show-up for child rearing duty. This kind of vision is absurd in the age of sexual equality and contraception. People are free to play-out whatever life-games they wish, and if the cover is blown off the lid of hellish matrimonial realities, so be it…Many smart, educated, lucid folks realize what a despairing reality a life of fathering children and having one’s freedoms curtailed day-in and day-out really means – after all, great mystics and wise men have known this for centuries: "renunciation" is just code-word for "turning-off the incessant jabbering of materialistic life" – The real question for Miss Richmond, if you really must understand Men, is: “What’s the price of a little quiet, and peace of mind in this life”? As for pulling stats out of a hat, such as this presumed Nicolas Townsend’s claim that he knows what being a grown-up man actually means for the rest of us, or Michael Kimmel’s claim that “married men are just happier”… Here’s what I see: ALL my married/parenting male friends pull me aside like snared-game to confess how miserable they truly are, and to tell me how lucky I am to be unattached – I can only assume that Miss Richmond’s piece reflects a growing worry among modern women wrapped-up in their ballooning ego and their reproductive compulsion: The Parenting Propaganda is in serious need of a face lift – People are getting wise to it…

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» internet porn Posted by: shellac'd
» RE: internet porn Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing
» Totally missing the point Posted by: BlueTigress
» Married men don't live longer Posted by: shellac'd
» RE: Married men don't live longer Posted by: BlueTigress
» Lies, damned lies, and statistics Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing
» RE: Lies, damned lies, and statistics Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing
» RE: Totally missing the point Posted by: batmagoo
Annoying category of article
Posted by: improperly_sedated on Apr 27, 2009 2:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The pseudo-sociological personal gripe article. We are treated to an extensive explanation of a particular type of jerk, accompanied by either the unsupported insinuation or the unsupported declaration that this somehow represents a "trend." What it actually represents is that this type of jerk exists, and that they are well represented in the authors personal sphere.

I get really sick of these.

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Jesus mother mary
Posted by: teel on Apr 27, 2009 2:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what a bullshit article. Only the raging feminist breeder could be bothered to sift through enough garbage to come up with an angle for a "story" like this.

Woopee, you found a guy who think it's gay to have a kid.

Doesn't make you Yoda. Some people don't buy into the child hype, choosing instead to focus on other things in life. Doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it different.

Some would say breeders are pretty sad people who, lacking a vision and plan for their lives, choose to play it safe and do what everyone else does ie spawn. Doesn't make you special.

We all choose how to live our lives, not having kids is one of those choices. Just because You don't get it doesn't mean it's wrong. MOMMY.

And no, there's no general underlying macho male psychological deficiency brewing. It's just you, trying to sound clever.

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» RE: Jesus mother mary Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: Jesus mother mary Posted by: morticia
» RE: HOW STUPID CAN YOU GET Posted by: joeocho88
» RE: HOW STUPID CAN YOU GET Posted by: montana karma
The Child is Father to the Man
Posted by: artie on Apr 27, 2009 2:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see nothing of any value in this article. Some people choose not to have children. There are those who thus choose out of the belief that having children will require serious 'editing' of a lifestyle they prefer to not alter more than a modicum - a fancy car, facials, a nice apartment, a Home n' Gardens interior-designed home, affects on body shape, poker night, .... Whatever the reason, what grounds is there for casting aspersions on their character, as this piece of writing attempts?
As a single-father of two, this 'writer' strikes me as one who has not really experienced parenthood. I often think that those either who have never experienced or who never will experience parenthood will never experience the unfathomably profound lessons it has taught me: lessons of love - the love that supports, forgives, that doesn't blame, ... - lessons of sharing, of recognizing the Other, of instilling a sense of values that is bereft of hatreds and prejudices, ..., lessons in how to accept love (Robert Kennedy's eulogy to his brother addresses the question with his typical eloquence). It is, in a less poetic sense, as Wordsworth said: the child is father to the man. On the other hand, concerning those who have not experienced parenthood (male or female), I think that of infinitely greater importance than their reasons for not having children is the question whether or not they think they would be good parents.
This is a question that this 'writing' does not at all address.

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» Eternal children Posted by: BlueTigress
What?
Posted by: LostInAmerica on Apr 27, 2009 2:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not even sure how to begin. Did you pull this article out of thin air or do you live in bizarro land? And where were the editors, the powers that be on this site, that this was deemed something worthy of posting?

I have to wonder if there really are men out there that think having kids is gay? Really? Come on, really? If these guys do exist I have one simple piece of advice - DON'T HAVE KIDS, YOU'RE TOO FUCKED UP, YOU WILL BE A TERRIBLE FATHER! YOUR CHILDREN MIGHT GROW UP TO READ ALTERNET!

Thank you. Caps lock off. That is all.

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» RE: What? Posted by: logansafi
Good Grief!
Posted by: socialpsych on Apr 27, 2009 3:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course. What we need are more children and more compliant men to father them.

Never mind that the planet is overpopulated with humans--some estimates say by 5 BILLION.

Never mind that we are experiencing rapid environmental collapse due to . . . TOO MANY HUMANS.

And never mind that we are now on the downside of Peak Oil and life is about to get a lot tougher for everyone.

No. Just knuckle under and cough up that sperm, buddy. The corporate criminals need you to produce more little consumers, and AlterNet is here to help spread the word.

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» RE: Good Grief! Posted by: ellie
» ellie Posted by: socialpsych
» RE: Good Grief! Posted by: Ranjit Kumar
» RE: Good Grief! Posted by: batmagoo
» Malthus was right, just delayed Posted by: truthlover
Word Definitions - author - HUH???
Posted by: dancerkc on Apr 27, 2009 3:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This latest usage for "gay" by this author really had me twisting trying to "get" the headline and word usage. Especially because it claimed that having a kid meant you are gay? I used to get asked if I was gay because I didN'T have kids and wasN'T married. I really thought it was a typo.

It seems to me the latest use of "gay" as in "so gay" has more to do with the word "dumb" or usage for "lame."

I still remember when gay meant bright and happy and lots-o'-fun. You can still see plenty of movies on TCM into at least the mid 1960's using the term the same way.

I'm fuzzy about when "gay" became gender related - sorry, I woke up late on that one somewhere in the mid/late 70's. (side note: I grew up on "queer" meaning "odd," that too changed about the same time to a gender meaning. "Queer" as a gender meaning has had its own pendulum swings - forgive the pun.)

I'm also fuzzy about when "gay" became a substitute for lame or dumb. I've only heard it used that way recently (in any quantity) though this usage seems traceable at least as far back as the 70's.

So now, seeing someone use "gay" as meaning fathering kids (the old-fashioned way at that) is really brain bending (rather than gender bending which I think got left behind).

I also don't know when being a father became either lame or dumb. I think this author is conflating the gender meaning for gay with the dumb/lame meaning. Did the 40-year old she quotes in the lede really mean this in the gender sense?

In the dumb/lame sense, I think this article and this author and the excited(?) editor are "so gay."

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poorly informed and immature
Posted by: sunnywater on Apr 27, 2009 3:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is perhaps more appropriate for a teenage magazine.

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Dad Blues
Posted by: When In Doubt on Apr 27, 2009 4:48 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Vanessa you seem to have touched a raw nerve with your on target article.

the comments prove your point.

Congratulations

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» raw nerve of bad writing Posted by: Erik1968
» RE: Dad Blues Posted by: batmagoo
The author has a warped since of what it means to be an adult.
Posted by: Honky The Antichrist on Apr 27, 2009 4:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author has a warped since of what it means to be an adult.

I say the men that choose his life’s path, even if that means binge drinking and internet porn is more mature than the men that get married, works at a job he hates and supports a wife and kids because that is what he is “supposed to do”.

Hey girlies, remember how you liberated yourself from the oppression of the Patriarchal Judeo Christian value system? So did we. I’d rather come home to an empty, play Xbox, drink beer with friends and occasionally hook up with some girl I care nothing about then go throw life being your emasculated bitch boy.

Feminism will be the death of the west. The battle of the sexes has become all out guerilla warfare and more men are becoming conscious objectors. White Western culture is being out birthed by theist. Catholic Latinos in the US and Muslims in Europe are quickly becoming the majority. All of those victories that feminist believe they have made – from abortion to windfall divorce settlements will be replaced by Marrrria and Fatima bare feet and pregnant in the kitchen.

I’m glad I was born in 1982. By 2060, I’ll be on my death bed and I will be leaving no heirs to inherit this dying, polluted, planet full of anti-intellectual theists.

YOU WIN.

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» That IS good news! Posted by: hurricane hugo
» We already knew that. Posted by: Beck
It's more against the single dads than it is against the married ones.
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Apr 27, 2009 4:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First off, don't blame the dads for being nervous. Blame society for its stupidity and intolerance. If you're a woman who's single, you're told to either hurry up and get married or shut up and adopt. If you're a man who's single, you're told that you're not "manly" enough for not getting married first. Until society overcomes those intolerances first, poking fun at single dads will continue. It's bad enough that men are limited to what they can wear while women can wear even men's clothing and get away with it. Why can't society accept the fact that it's ok for single dads to adopt?

Second, why are married males factored into all of this? If they're married, then they don't have to worry since the wife is supposed to be the mother. Single dads, on the other hand, are the actual victims of society's pathetic intolerance.

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Fathering them hasn't been the problem
Posted by: LTBROWN on Apr 27, 2009 5:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Supporting them? Now that's the problem. And yes, he is punk if he shucks his responsibility. You have to pay the cost to be the boss!

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» I agree to an extent . . . Posted by: maulnkiss
no such thing as "editors" anymore
Posted by: Erik1968 on Apr 27, 2009 5:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks, internet!

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why push these guys to breed?
Posted by: geometeer on Apr 27, 2009 5:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm all for parenthood, where the parent or parents (whatever gender mix) really want to tend and enjoy children. But why see those who don't want to as a problem? Why press them to accept children who will grow up feeling resented? Fully wanted children would be less of a burden on the planet: partly by being fewer, partly by being happier and less driven to replace human warmth by consumption.

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For more anti choice Misandry garbage read:
Posted by: Honky The Antichrist on Apr 27, 2009 5:53 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Child Man...

When faced with the shear hatred of anything male, it is no wonder why men would prefer to become handosexuals with their internet porn.

If I decide I want a wife, I’ll click on the hot blonde to “Find my Ukrainian Beauty” that pops up in every other Alternet article.

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» linked article properly linked Posted by: shellac'd
Too complex
Posted by: Bizatch! on Apr 27, 2009 6:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This topic is too complex to make into a gender issue. I'm a male who is childless, going into middle-age... trying hard to avoid contact with ANY woman just so I can have peace. I almost wish I was gay, sometimes... but the thing for me is to have control over my own destiny and not lose the benefits of a solitary life: the chance to cultivate my mind and think independently. The older I get, the more I realize how things like that get lost with the demands of family.

My close friend is happily married with kids. His family is great... I'm an uncle to the little girls, and his wife is also my friend. But he gave up many things--gladly, in his case-- to be a part of this. Fortunately this scenario seems to allow each of us to see how it is 'on the other side', and how to accept others of very differing outlooks into our hearts despite this.

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Feminism having its way, as usual, an unexpected result
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Apr 27, 2009 6:09 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"A woman (and their nation) needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." Remember? That was a feminist mantra in the sixties.

"A state (and its women) which dwarfs its men, in order that they may be more docile instruments in its hand even for beneficial purposes - will find that with small men no great thing can really be accomplished; and that the perfection of the machinery to which it has sacrificed everything, will in the end avail it nothing, for want of the vital power which, in order that the machine might work more smoothly, it has preferred to banish." --J.S. Mill (once considered the most intelligent human being on earth).

No one, excepting me, it appears, seems to notice that the nation's decline has been directly related to the rise of feminism, and all its "successes."

When the ladies have finally destroyed what provided for their "liberation," men, it will be interesting to see what they do and hear then what they say. When cultures and nations who have not "preferred to banish" maleness and male dominance have come to overrun the U.S., and feminism is naked and spread-eagled on a dumpster in the alley of history, there will be no one left to protect the "liberated" from all those newly arrived "male chauvinists."

Poetic justice, huh?

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JenniferBedingfield and irishfolkie raise interesting points about society's reactions to
Posted by: Ranjit Kumar on Apr 27, 2009 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
nonconfirmity from both sexes. As a Hindu Brahmin, I find it utterly amazing that for all of my life growing up in the USA that there are so many cultural clashes and intolerances amongst the masses. I won't say that back in India, being a single even at the age of 33 is acceptable even for a guy or that getting married at a very early age is as acceptable as it used to be since times have changed there too. However, unlike the USA, our Indian culture has learned to retain a lot of older cultures and add new ones to it. On a bright note, I see some Americans are learning and are even willing to bring back some of the older but pleasant traditions to mix in with the new. India has a long way to go before they can get used to the idea of same sex marriages but on the other hand, there's a growing tolerance for marrying late or even staying single just like the USA even while the tradition of arranged marriages and at usually earlier ages such as the lower to mid 20s still remain. It's all a matter of case by case.

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JOhn Dais
Posted by: Jacko95 on Apr 27, 2009 6:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yo dude, to each their own man, to each their own.

Ralphy
Online pRivacy when it COunts

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micko
Posted by: micko on Apr 27, 2009 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The planet can support only about a third of the current human population, soon to increase exponentially. We have already bred ourselves into extinction, along with the hundreds of thousands of other species already gone for lack of habitat. The only thing that could possibly save the human race has already passed: zero population growth established as of 1950. Instead, we have bred like vermin. Now we are left to we kill each other off for increasingly scarce resources. If you want scapegoats (besides ego), look to religion and capitalism. Ah, the sanctity of human life! Ah, the capitalist religion or growth, growth, growth! Power and profit.

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» RE: AMEN, BROTHER! Posted by: joeocho88
Gay men tend NOT to breed
Posted by: Crazy H on Apr 27, 2009 7:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm really having trouble making the connection, here... %^P

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» RE: Gay men tend NOT to breed Posted by: VZEQICVA
ALTERNET OUTDOES ITSELF
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Apr 27, 2009 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's rare for Alternet to print an article that has absolutely no socially redeeming qualities. Any guy who thinks it's gay to father a child shouldn't be a father. He is not to be confused with gay men who adopt children. They make very good parents. But this jerk is completely self absorbed and should not inflict himself on some innocent child. ANNA

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» right Posted by: Gabba_Gabba_Hey
Obviously, written by a girl.
Posted by: ratcat on Apr 27, 2009 7:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article appears to be an exercise to see how her stereotypical ideas are received.
Well, they don't seem to be received very well.

Perhaps, because your premise is flawed. Perhaps, because you are whining.
Obviously, because your facts are wrong.

More sex? Yeah, right - maybe for the mother, while the father is out busting his hump to support his child and her sorry ass.
Fact - Being a mother guarantees a steady income. Being a father guarantees a steady financial obligation with no guarantees that the mother will be the least bit cooperative, or that he will ever be able to see the child.
Fact is, when she gets bored, she can go off and do whatever she feels like doing. There's daycare, childcare, and babysitters, never heard of a jobsitter. Meanwhile, it doesn't matter how bored or physically tired old Dad gets. If he slacks off, and doesn't support the Mother and child, his ass goes to jail.

Little Miss Vanessa, perhaps the guys you're trying to rope just don't see you as a trustworthy person. Perhaps, they see you as someone who thinks her biological clock is getting too loud. Perhaps, they are saying they would rather be gay than support you. Maybe, they are politely saying they are willing to tickle your fancy while they get their rocks off - without the lifelong commitment.

If you're hearing that biological clock scream at you, whether it is truly biological, or just because you are seeing your last big chance to have the guaranteed income slip away, you don't need to saddle some guy - adopt a child. You still get all of the bragging rights with the local hens. Plus, with the current social system, you get paid by the state to raise them. Win - win, without the stretch marks! And, when you think the latest guy is getting boring, you can go your seperate ways without destroying his life, too.

It used to be a woman won a guy and made him happy, now she catches one. The former required work on her part, the latter relies on the legal system.

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» RE: Idiotic Column AND Comments Posted by: UnderTheSea
Do married men really "have much more sex"?
Posted by: Gabba_Gabba_Hey on Apr 27, 2009 7:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who are they having it with? (ha.) Maybe married men tell pollsters they're having much more sex.

I also enjoyed the part about getting a "chef" and a "laundress." For more fun stereotypes I'll look at the "Everybody Loves Raymond" reruns tonight.

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» They are happier Posted by: BlueTigress
Ideocracy - the Movie
Posted by: ratcat on Apr 27, 2009 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
See it.
It presents an interesting observation of evolution. No religion. Full on comedy. Raunchy, but leaves the viewer with a new perspective.

Yes, and it pertains to this thread of feminism and reproduction.

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» Don't you mean Idiocracy? Posted by: Ayla87
Maturity
Posted by: improperly_sedated on Apr 27, 2009 8:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The basic premise of the article is too stupid for words. There has never been a shortage of men with no interest in fatherhood. Traditionally, they have knocked women up and then ducked responsibility. Apparently, however, some men are self aware and responsible enough to say in advance "that's not for me."

The author sees these men as a problem.

For those wondering why this article was posted, I suspect someone thought it would be illuminating to see how many misogynist responses it would provoke. Kind of like yelling n****r in a crowd to see how many black racists are there. I guess that's just the state of decorum on the interwebs.

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» RE: Maturity Posted by: BlueTigress
Gay as a sexist insult
Posted by: ladyking6k on Apr 27, 2009 8:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The word 'gay' continually keeps its meaning of anti-heterosexual masclininty. Anything that straight men don't like some seem to call it gay.

The same kinds of straight men seem to deem everything related to women imprisoning or bad. (especially after reading the comments to this article)

I wish more men would speak up against using detoragory comments against gays and women. And explain why this sexist line of thinking is harmful to everyone.

And one last comment, as a queer woman who doesn't have children and is single, I've done the partying thing. It ain't all that. You get bored.

Which doesn't mean you should breed. But I certainly wouldn't encourage people who are continually fufilled by video games, porn and having their "freedom" to have children.

I think people are just different and we should allow people to find their own path. However, to encourage different ways of being doesn't mean putting down others like saying straight dads are gay (like that's a bad thing), or being married is bad, or women who want to marry and have kids is bad etc.

It's just different.

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"HOUSEHUSBAND MACHO!" A Musical Cure!
Posted by: mainesongwriter on Apr 27, 2009 8:35 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For an Instant "Cure", Listen To This Song!

"HOUSEHUSBAND MACHO!"

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=1669637

(From Maine songwriter, Mike Nobel .... this song was a favorite for years on Minnesota Public Radio's "Morning Show" with Tom Keith)

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Dear Ms. Richmond,
Posted by: stellabloo on Apr 27, 2009 9:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a lot of respect for Rafe Mair and The Tyee, that feisty little newspaper, as I grew up in BC. That's why I am surprised to see an article of yours like this one reproduced on an american/international site rather than a truly informative article like this:

Canada on Top in Sex Ed - Rise in US teen pregnancies proves information beats abstinence.


Please stick to quoting facts, dear. Many people believe that we have quite enough babies in the world as it is without guilting others for choosing to be childless. Yes, men are vapid, self-absorbed creatures but so are most women.

The truth of the matter is that women are the ones who end up cleaning the toilet the world over, regardless of marital status. We don't need a man for more than 5 minutes to have a baby but if we're not ready to take on that responsibility ourselves - with or without help from a partner - then we are not ready.

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I would love to have a child...........
Posted by: steven w on Apr 27, 2009 9:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and I am 53- where can I find a woman to marry and have my child?

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Where do you find these people?
Posted by: Ayla87 on Apr 27, 2009 9:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because I've never met any of the types of people that Alternet's writers profile on a weekly basis.

I have never met a man who thought that having kids is 'gay'. I've heard 'burden' and 'hassle' quite a few times; 'pain in the ass' is practically my middle name. But I've heard all of this from women as much as men.

In fact, most of the men that I've come accross love thier children and enjoy fatherhood. There are deadbeats obviously, but they're not tolerated among either my friends or family. Most of the people I associate with at least pay for thier children. And those who don't have children, don't mock those who do.

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Clang clang clang - reality check!
Posted by: truthlover on Apr 27, 2009 10:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are currently 6.7 billion people on the planet. Without fossil fuels for fertilizer and food distribution, which are running out, the carrying capacity will be between 1 and 2 billion.

If you have ANY DOUBTS WHATSOEVER about wanting to have children, do us all a favor and don’t have them. This will be a GOOD thing – one less person to die or deprive someone else when the famines hit.

And they will hit.

Oh, and if you are a WIMP
Or STILL A CHILD wanting to play at 40

For goodness’ sake don’t burden some poor woman with your presence.

Same goes for the women.

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Whether it is a trend or not, I don't know, but...
Posted by: BreeMass on Apr 27, 2009 10:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...this aptly captures my now ex-husband and was exactly the reason for the demise of our marriage. He was fine working and getting married and I didn't care too much that he still played video games nonstop and wanted to work in the garden more than work around the house. He was six years older than me and when we met he was very mature for his age - the problem is that he never got beyond it. After we'd been married for four years and we were about to start a family (after months of planning, talking and consideration mind you, not to mention two miscarriages and a barrage of doctor's appointments on my end) he woke up one morning and rolled over in bed to tell me it was over, no explanation, nothing. Now, almost two years later, he has done virtually nothing besides party with the same guys he partied with in his teens and twenties, dated the girls he dated in his teens and twenties, taken all the drugs he took in his teens and twenties and now lives in a house with some buddies working the bare minimum of a job to keep this lifestyle afloat. Keep in mind he is now 36 years old.

And while I know this is anecdotal, I am not alone among women my age to have experiences with men similar to this. I am 30 and I feel like men my age feel like it's perfectly acceptable to still act as they did in their late teens and early twenties and women who don't agree are just stuffy, uptight bores who want them to grow up too fast. I mean, really, shouldn't we all be growing up at least a little bit by age 30?! Or is that not the case anymore. The worst part - at least for women who do want to start families - is that we don't have the luxury of putting it off indefinitely and it can be quite frustrating to witness the men in our age group coast along savoring their so-called eternal youth.

So while this article might not be the best-written about the subject, I don't think it's far off.

Now let the flaming begin!! :)

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» Holding onto my youth? Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing
Good thing
Posted by: 876 on Apr 27, 2009 10:30 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Frankly, “white” men believing that procreating is a bad thing is good for us all. Humanity can only benefit from the death of the white mans bloodline. Now if only we could get the white women onto this line of thinking.

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» Latinos hate blacks more than whites do. Posted by: Honky The Antichrist
As if 'gay' meant anything other than 'joyful'
Posted by: Comrade Rutherford on Apr 27, 2009 10:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I remember the early '80s in about 9th grade, hearing the 7th graders calling each other 'gay' as if it meant something. My grade and above didn't even know that term as an epithet. It was the kids a couple years younger than us that were raised on that word as if it were a staple food.

Now that I am 43 it's the same ones, 40 or younger, that still use the word 'gay' as if it meant something. Clearly by context they mean 'dumb' or 'stupid', they don't mean 'flaming homosexual'.

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Peter Pan syndrome
Posted by: BlueTigress on Apr 27, 2009 10:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having to be responsible and giving up "fun". Lame!

It's probably a good thing these guys don't want to breed. The gene pool doesn't need it.

My husband and I never had children, but that a was a conscious decision we both arrived at.

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» What are you talking about? Posted by: BlueTigress
Fatherhood Should Be A Joy
Posted by: nantyglo22 on Apr 27, 2009 10:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although I'm no father, I've known plenty of men who've abdicated their responsibility after having a child. Want proof? Spend some time out in Las Vegas. I've known several women here in Los Angeles say their exes moved to Vegas and some aren't paying child support.
How do relationships between us go awry? It seems after a child is born, the loving stops. But some couples can handle the responsibility. But when a child is born out of wedlock one side will bolt-usually the man. Admit it, guys.
Having a child isn't "gay"; that snide remark shows a lack of intellectualism at best. We've forgotten that we were once conceived inside a womb and had to go through that stage from diapers to denim to drag racing.
For the record, I'm a single man, but I would like to marry and have children, if possible. Fatherhood should be a joy, and men, we have to put aside the concept of patriarchy and be a father. A family suffers when there is no father present.
I'm not a relationship expert, but I am concerned about the number of women who have to go it alone. But not all of us will walk. There are plenty of us men out there who are loyal and will stay during good and bad times.
Maybe it's the times we live in that causes us to act like this. No one's perfect, but there are too many singles raising kids-and that's hard on both sexes.

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» RE: Fatherhood Should Be A Joy Posted by: Comrade Rutherford
» RE: Fatherhood Should Be A Joy Posted by: nantyglo22
how much more Misandrist BULLSHIT do we have to put up with?
Posted by: rastaman on Apr 27, 2009 10:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
how much more Misandrist BULLSHIT do we have to put up with from ALTERNET?


go fukkk yourselves already

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Being a Real Man ®™
Posted by: Comrade Rutherford on Apr 27, 2009 11:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When we were growing up both me and my feminist partner were terrified of having children. The awesome responsibility, the loss of personal freedom, being 'tied' down...

We met when I was 30 (she was 32) and we were in our mid-'30s when we decided to have our first child together. Now that we have kids, we both wish we had started when we were younger and wonder what we were so afraid of.

We just had our last child a few weeks ago, a boy this time. I was her labor partner and I delivered our baby. Let me make one thing perfectly clear:

There is NO experience more powerful for a Man than staring into the eyes of the woman you love and emotionally supporting her while she is in labor!

The people described by the author of this article and many of the comments posted here sound like a bunch of whiny selfish immature pre-teen narcissists that are incapable of having any compassion for anyone other than themselves.

The 38 year old boys described by the author in this article clearly are still children as they have only puerile notions of masculinity. I doubt they ever will be grown men, since they prefer to live like they did when they were 11.

Having a loving partnership with a feminist woman and raising our children with love, care and respect has made me a Real Man.

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Strange article
Posted by: Hecate_magika on Apr 27, 2009 11:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I consider myself a Feminist and for some reason even identify with some radical Feminist ideas. Having said that, this article just doesn't resonate with me. Of course we've all heard stories of the dead beat dad. But I hardly think those men chose that path as a result of perceiving fatherhood as 'gay.' Yes, some may see it as a burden, but there are plenty who welcome the experience. I'm not even defending men here. I am just old enough to have observed the choices individuals make and they are all unique. Gender is problematic in the overall context of society and that may be the case for a while. But to simply dismiss the very personal ramifications of child custody issues is kind of lazy. There's a lot of gray area to be discussed here.

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It doesn't look gay, but it is ecological suicide.
Posted by: raincascadia on Apr 27, 2009 11:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having your own biological children is one of the most selfish and stupid things to do at this point in history. However, adopting is a selfless act that helps everyone, and it doesn't look gay either, unless you are gay.

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Feminism on Alternet
Posted by: Urgelt on Apr 27, 2009 11:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, like, what is Alternet's game plan?

We get the most insipid feminist thought here, and none of the feminist thought that is grounded in science. Or philosophy. Nothing objective ever shows up here, just incoherent mumbling and labeling with a dash of angry slander.

Are you deliberately trying to portray feminism as stupid? Because, you know, that's exactly what it looks like.

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Wow
Posted by: SalB on Apr 27, 2009 12:21 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought as I read this "well, finally the misogynists will be happy to have an article only about men", but no, they still whine. It is a sad sad person that worships childhood and irresponsibility, but at the very least, at least they aren't projecting their idiotic sexual segregation ideas onto any progeny.

And that is a significant problem too. These men see women as sex objects (could it be the porn? the porn itself would argue yes, women are to be used for sex). They don't realize that women are people and might be worth talking to and interacting with.

Maybe that these men aren't breeding is the best we can hope for. Nevermind how overpopulated we are too.

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» RE: Wow Posted by: teel
» RE: Wow Posted by: MT512
» RE: Wow Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing
» RE: Wow Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: Wow Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing
Natural selection should take care of this
Posted by: Deidzoeb on Apr 27, 2009 12:41 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Theoretically men or women who fear a bad self-image brought on by having kids (whether it's THE!!GAYNESS or just milky puke clashing with their wardrobes) would be a tendency that selects itself for extinction. I mean, they wouldn't pass on those genes or tendencies to others, if it were only a genetic thing.

On the other hand, that would only prevent fearful men from raising a kid and parenting, not from passing on their genes and then splitting. Also if natural selection worked that way for every tendency, then theoretically any genetic tendency to be gay or asexual would also be "selected out". Or maybe my understanding of natural selection is too simplistic.

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Oh you think we men are bad now?
Posted by: MT512 on Apr 27, 2009 1:11 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...with our immature "video games" and our immature "alcohol" and our immature "friends" and our immature "decisions to not procreate" and our immature "penises" and our immature "facial hair" and our immature "anything that makes us different from the women who in their magnanimity have allowed us to live among them"...

Just wait until lifelike sex-capable domestic androids are cheap enough for middle-class guys to finance. Then generalized male-bashing like this article will serve more as reinforcement for an investment well made.

Think about how furious this article would be then! "Men are fucking robots because they're afraid of real women!" (not because of possible advantages there might be) "Men today are more immature with their sexbots than they were 20 years ago with their video games!" "The better the technology gets, the more infantile our men become and the more of their slack we noble, flawless females have to take up!"

I'm a feminist, yet I too get really tired of aimless male-bashing like this that basically says any male behavior that differs from female behavior is childish behavior.

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» RE: Oh you think we men are bad now? Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing
how to invent a 'trend'
Posted by: gk13 on Apr 27, 2009 1:20 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Notice there is some subset of your friends who aren't doing what you want them to do and then give them an alliterative nickname and criticize them for not agreeing with your expectations of them.

Why doesn't the author and anyone else in this situation drop these folks as friends and find new ones who are more interested in procreation and not playing video games or whatever other list of things is considered important?

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sirbill
Posted by: sirwilliam on Apr 27, 2009 2:04 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
old guy here who lived through child support payments that were not accurately accounted for; judgements granted in court on the false and filmsy basis'; haressment from all sectors of society...got one of those boys who does not want a kid....and there are many more out there like this.

Probably time for the other side of this gender issue to look back at how men were treated like dirt....and maybe some deserved it...but the entire legal system swung 180 degrees...instead of 90 degrees....and men were the brunt of milleniuns of hate from women.
Unforunate; but has taken a generation to start to move towards balance....but these children of that era; are petrified.

That simple. That complicated.

Look differently at this issue.

Not "gay" scared....just plain scared...and this also kicks back the pain of growing up. So
like the rest of the world they do not want to feel any more of that pain of growing up...so find an easy excuse....even if it is weird.

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zorba1
Posted by: zorba1 on Apr 27, 2009 2:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What am I a freak?
I'm 63 and still have two teens in the house, the three boys are on their own.
My wife never worked, I provided this our third home, paid for educations, bought lots of vehicles, transported everyone to sports and schools and we went on plenty of vactions including two seven day cruises.
The last one with all the kids.
If my wife and I could make kids I would be happy. There were and are plenty of tough times but so what, I love our kids and grandkids.
I do not play video games nor do I watch sports, they do not interest me.
I read, am planting a garden and I am on the net selling stuff on ebay. Transport our two daughters to and from college and am looking forward to our forth grandchild to spoil.
Like my parents I know who I am.

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Poor sad stereotypers
Posted by: BST on Apr 27, 2009 2:53 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good grief, every time I read another AlterNet rant, I think "Gosh, these writers sound sad and mad about everything."

This article does not deserve comment but I'll do it anyway on behalf of the fabulous men who are in my life (sorry they're absent from yours and the lives of the authors referenced).

I've worked with and been friends with literally dozens of men, some of whom cherish wives and children, exit meetings early to head for childcare, look forward to family vacations, some of whom have chosen not parent but have great regard for those who do.

Where in the world do you dig up these stereotypes of men as goons and jerks? So sorry your life is filled with these oddities. It must be so very sad for the writer!!

Signed: A woman surrounded by great men!

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» RE: Poor sad stereotypers Posted by: batmagoo
Amazing
Posted by: Archie1954 on Apr 27, 2009 3:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has to be the most counterintuitive article I have ever read.

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Gender idendity my ass
Posted by: willymack on Apr 27, 2009 4:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Practically ALL of us know our orientation, almost from birth. Those of us who are straight go ga-ga when we meet the love of our lives, father children with them, and don't give a fat rat's ass WHAT others think of us.

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This is not a feminist article, readers! Stop bashing feminism here.
Posted by: ladyoracle on Apr 27, 2009 6:30 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The writer of the article is using masculinity studies sources, not feminist studies writing. The research she cites is research on men, and although child care and parenting are quite relevant to women, the article's focus on men puts it clearly in the men's studies category. I just say that because people are taking this article as an opportunity to bash feminism, but feminism is about choices, including at the top of the list the choice to be a mother or not.

This article looks at choices for men instead of women, and its argument in favor of parenthood as a vehicle toward happiness is not rooted in feminism. Feminism is about supporting women who choose motherhood, yes, but arguing that we should be mothers to achieve true womanhood is circa 1850. To turn that argument to the reverse, fatherhood is no guarantee of happiness, and I pity the guy who reads this article, then tells his girlfriend or wife he's ready, then two years alter he leaves her because he doesn't want that for himself, he just thought it was what he should do. And then he's a bad guy. Far better for him to follow his inner voice and follow his own path. That is what I think women should do, and as in "women" I mean myself.

My husband and I have plenty of money to give a child a middle class life, but I do not want to be a mother. I do not want my body to go through that, and I do not want to care for an infant or raise a child. There are too many reason to list here, but some of them include not wanting to quit "having fun," defined as leavng my house without arranging a baby sitter or dragging a stroller with me. I am also not keen on bringing another person into the world to compete for depleting resources and opportunities. If men feel that way, then far be it for me to judge them or call them immature or incomplete men. By the author's reckoning it would seem that if a man is not in the middle class, he is not a real man. That mentality is suggested by scholars to contribute to spouse and child abuse in the poorest families. Brilliant.

When I read the title of the article, I expected a smart look at the word "gay" because having a child most likely means a man having sex with a woman (although science has given us some other options).

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What the article left out
Posted by: PaulK on Apr 27, 2009 6:59 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, ask any high school age or college age woman if she wants to get pregnant this year. Maybe 1% will say yes. The same is true for boys.

Women only get desperate for babies when they almost can't have any more. Then they think a baby will make their life fufilled.

American couples who have children are generally sadder. That's because babies in America are giant holes where all the money goes down. Women working 60 hours a week almost die from taking care of kids. Some colleges are $50k/year. The teenage kids are all snotty about it too. They chafe at being caged up for all their years at high school with strict limits on sex.

In China, people would risk death to have a second or a third baby. Extra babies are illegal.

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This is one of those invented problems
Posted by: dkm on Apr 27, 2009 7:32 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no societal group more macho than a redneck and there is no group of men who spend more time with their sons doing everything from playing ball to fishing to hunting to just about everything. To all of a sudden discover that men think being a father is being gay is similar to suddenly discovering that women are opting out of the workplace and staying home. It just ain't happening.

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Divide and conquer
Posted by: Kelly on Apr 27, 2009 9:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nice. Here we are going at it again. I don't think anyone who participated in trying to re-work the dominant social paradigms in the 60's and 70's could have foreseen what was going to happen. Modern life has been a shock to us all. Women wanted a way to participate in economic and civic life in a meaningful way. Men did not want to lose power (and unpaid labor). The thing is, if women's labor hadn't been appropriated by corporatists and steered into Walmart, cheap consumerism, and rampant inflation, everything would have been better than it was before.

But no, we've been tricked into going for each other's throats rather than questioning our corporate masters. Think about it--if the work week was cut to twenty hours a week, there would be plenty of time to share household chores and parenting duties while holding down rewarding jobs. Without inflation and consumerist vacuity, we could all better ourselves, enjoy life, and find time to strengthen bonds with each other. Instead, we work like animals and turn our pain and frustration on each other. Yes, men do tend to be more selfish. I don't know if this is biology or socialization, but I think that the sickness is being fed by those with an agenda.

An equal life with an equal partner, family or no, was the goal of feminism. Feminists were no match for Sam Walton and Richard Nixon. There is a way out of this: gut the service sector and take another look at socialism. Make sure dirty jobs get good wages and cut the work week in half. Now--where is the will to slip the leash?

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Thanks Alternet . . .
Posted by: newsound on Apr 27, 2009 10:37 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is all we need right now . . . more negativity towards gay people!
With the religious right at war with us, you reinforce their cause by posting pure crap like this. You must really be desperate for material.

What's next . . . National Enquirer type pieces about whether certain celebrities are gay or not?

Jeeeeez . . . you guys really amaze me sometimes.

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I Hate Kids
Posted by: jaguarxjs on Apr 28, 2009 8:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In an over populated world, with people unwilling to share resources equitably and literally millions of orphans, having children is easily the most selfish and disgusting thing any human can do.

If you need a kid that bad, adopt.

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Romac
Posted by: romac on Apr 28, 2009 8:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well first of all "gay" doesn't mean "gay" to most 40 year-olds - "gay" means "shitty" or "stupid".

Example: Last week's new LOST episode was re-runs edited together and called a "retrospective". My wife said "gay" about 5 minutes into it. She didn't mean the show was homosexual.

I'm a 40 year old father of a 6 year-old and a 3.5 year-old, and i completely understand Honky The Antichrist's comment entitled "what's in it for the man?"

But since I don't like the whole "men vs women" thing people do to make people want to take your side because they happen to be one sex or another, I'd like to re-title it "what's in it for the man OR the woman?"

Being the father of two, I ask myself that question daily. Our life before and after having kids is as different as day and night. Before there was fun and now there is not. Before there was freedom, now we are bogged down. Before we filled each other's minds, now the kids fill our minds. Before we were passionately in love, and the best of friends, now we are tired, growing distant, and I no longer think of the two of us as "one".

This has nothing to do with age or the normal "cool down" in relationships. We've been together for 19 years, and together for 12 years before we decided to have kids. 6 years ago we worshipped each other, now we're part time companions.

Looking at my life before and after having kids i can definitely say that having kids is indeed gay - and i don't mean homosexual.

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» RE: Romac Posted by: romac
» RE: omac Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing
I have never heard...
Posted by: TheNamelessCity on Apr 28, 2009 8:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
any man say that having children is gay. Is this a new phenomenon? Or perhaps this article is an ad for a crappy flick? (Most Hollywood flicks are crappy.) All the men I know who have children adore them, even the men who are divorced or else still in their pre-marriage mental state of wanting to play with their buddies instead of be a full-time family man.

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» How is.... Posted by: Fencerider
» RE: How is.... Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing
Please take this article down
Posted by: njguy73 on Apr 28, 2009 11:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It has already lowered my IQ by 13 points. Another week and every person in the country will be squatting in a corner, drooling, and petting a small, shiny object.

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Weird article! Strange topic! End of Empire?
Posted by: Daidactic on Apr 28, 2009 12:11 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well once again, I am totally perplexed by an article here. I find myself observing US society as a very alien place if this is typical. How typical is it? Having children is a very natural genetically driven process for men and women throughout the world but only in a society which has lost its way could such an idea emerge. I believe that the root of the problem, and make no mistake about this, this is a problem, is that US men who think this are not men at all but boys who have not grown up enough to accept responsibility. If this is typical, and, as I said before, I have my doubts about that, then the US of A is in deep trouble. If you cannot produce children who believe in your society then your society will die. Maybe this is a symptom of the waning importance of the USA - the end of the US empire?

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» The end of the US Empire is not my problem. Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing
I have seen some contrived arguments but...
Posted by: muzunguhowru on Apr 28, 2009 12:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This one is a beauty. The authors friend's use of adolescent slang notwithstanding late in life fatherhood is not considered "gay" by any significant number. What is really at play here is a collision between biology and contemporary reproductive science. Men are fertile into middle age and older as a matter of biological norms. Women on the other hand have only recently been so empowered through medical technology and are giddily taking advantage of that possibility assuming that their normally longer life spans will insure they are around to parent. When a husband or partner is less enthusiastic for whatever reason its all of a sudden some kind of sexist conspiracy.

I will leave the misogynistic rants about the financial, social and emotional jeopardy men assume when choosing to father a child to others except to say that its a choice for us too ladies.. Having children late in life is an even bigger decision. Sucking it up and dealing with an infant or toddler at 45 or 50 is doable, maybe even enjoyable. Dealing with a teenager at 65 or 70 and working till one is 80 to pay for college etc...thats quite a commitment and one that should not be undertaken lightly. And since men don't live as long the possibility of leaving the child prematurely is greater Traditionally late in life dads could at least count on their much younger spouse to be there if his number came up early. Now with Mom being 50 or 60 as well the possibility of leaving a child all alone at some point is much greater.

Men making reasoned rational choices about parenting is a good thing, not some sort of conspiracy.

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» This is Alternet Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing
Another Sophomoric Journal Entry
Posted by: nickspm on Apr 28, 2009 11:41 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Men have simply gotten wise to the advantages of remaining independent. If no man is going to tell you how to live your life, no woman is going to tell me how to live my life, either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't see a problem with that!

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Vanessa Richmond...You Are Why We're Nervous 8-)
Posted by: semperfam on Apr 29, 2009 1:18 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While it pains me to even respond I must. I realize you just need attention, and boy..sorry... girl you got it with this one I’m just tired of Women trying to speak for us Men Folk. Vanessa, how would you even know? Because you asked some guys you are acquainted with and did some subjective analysis? Your problem like so many other Women attempting to speak intelligently about this issue is well...you ain't a guy! Hello....you never will be 8- ) In fact I really do not think you sincerely care. You just kinda needed something to write about and told your friends, “Watch the responses.” Weird.

Speaking from experience as a 40 yr old man and Father considering another child I’ll give you some valuable inside information. You can shun me off or laugh like a child, but it truly is valuable insight my “Bro’s” ((did you hear that term on one of your Pop Culture T.V. programs recently?)) don't want me to tell 8-) here are the primary reasons soo many Men are nervous if not averse to children particularly with American Women and gayety, in your feeble if not confused attempt at peer pressure is incredible wrong. On an objective serious note and truth stated as fact it’s primarily fourfold although my experience counts several sub factors;

• Women are responsible but not accountable
• You have this overriding compulsion to confuse freedom with consumerism
• You sign up for commitments you just can’t fulfill
• You are tools and victims of Pop Culture and the media (just like we are) but lack the objective fortitude to put it in perspective.

You see if you possessed those four things, or in the negative did not, then we might be willing to fertilize your seed! It wasn’t always this way. In fact the more aggressive aspect of the infection seems somewhat recent. Perhaps a generation in front of the tube and with the freedom to pursue Life and your interests as equals, who knows. The fact is you’ll only really feel equal when you can whistle at Adonis as he walks down the street and it’s socially and morally acceptable.

Your problem is it never will be. So please give it a rest Split Tail and stop bashing guys who are simply protecting the very Females they appreciate from themselves. The facts are Men can produce children into their 80’s. It’s YOU who are missing out because you lack the vision, moral fortitude, and passion to put your Family first. You are too busy searching for what’s right in your face.

When you decide to grow up and stop being an insult to hypocrisy and attention desiring little Girl come back and write something worthwhile because at this point in your Life you are kinda missing it entirely. Keep searching you’ll get there 8- )

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bmorejoe
Posted by: jhall251 on Apr 29, 2009 8:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We do not need more children. If someone does not feel driven to reproduce, more power to them.

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People who don't want children
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Apr 29, 2009 11:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
should not have children. It's as simple as that. At the age of 22, I married a man who did not really want children. And I already had a child from a previous relationship when I was very young, which always bothered him. The problem was that, before we got married, he never told me, so I was not prepared for his attitude. About 4 years into the marriage, he said we could start "thinking about" having kids.

Around that time, we visited friends and unexpectedly wound up staying over night. I didn't have my birth control (it was always my responsibility), but he was insistent on having sex every single night, and I got pregnant. It was the only time in my entire marriage when I didn't use birth control, so I know it was that night. I thought he was going to commit suicide when he found out. He went around telling people that I got pregnant "behind his back" - a neat trick, I've always thought.

My ex never bonded with either of the kids. He performed all the "right" fatherly functions, had a good job, was mostly patient and often even kind. But he had no real emotional attachment to them.

This guy was not a childlike person. He was responsible to the extreme, did not ever play games, never took time for vacations, or had very much fun. He had an agenda, and the kids did not fit in.

If I had known this about him, I would not have married him in the first place. His not wanting children was fine, and I don't think anyone should ever be denigrated for this choice. However, he knew I already had one child and wanted one more. His not telling me was deceptive.

Eventually we divorced and I got remarried to an amazing man. He was never married before and had no kids - just never found the right person. He and I have talked about the fact that we were too old (physically and chronologically) to have a child together and that we are both a little sad about this. He, unlike my ex, would have been a wonderful, kind, gentle, dedicated father.

The funny (in light of the article) thing about this whole situation is that he is the one who is childlike and loves to play games and have fun. But he would have used that as a gift to his kids - his joy, his ability to lose his adult inhibitions, his delight in competition, and so many other qualities.

I am a feminist. I kept my birth name when I remarried. I work while my husband stays home, and we share domestic duties. I resent the use of mysogynistic terms like "he has balls" as a compliment.

However, I love men (those who are not like my ex). I love the ones who can be like children with their spontaneity, their ability to play games, the way they relish life and winning and recalling the crazy things they used to do.

Girls traditionally used to play at being grown-up with their little kitchens, babies, and toy housekeeping items. Boys played games and sports, went fishing and biking. They learned it's fun to play. Girls were supposed to learn that it's fun to be a woman keeping house and caring for babies. That has gotten better, and more women know how to play, but men are still better at it (in my experience). I prefer men - and women who are like men in that way - to those who take themselves too seriously. (I have a sign on my driveway "No grownups allowed.")

There are ways in which some men would do well to become more like women, perhaps more nurturing or gentle or communicative. But there are also many ways in which it's really great for women to become more like men. They can learn to be less restrictive and more fun loving. This article is silly, biased, and narrow. If a man or a woman thinks having kids is "gay" or any other bad thing, it's only a problem if he or she is with someone who feels the opposite.

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This is why there will be no Liberal Community in 100 years
Posted by: jwc1480 on Apr 29, 2009 10:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
High Muslim birthrate. Low birthrate almost everybody else.

youtube: Muslim Demographics

Example, France. French birthrate/couple, 1.8.
French Muslim birthrate 8.1/couple. France will be an Islamic state in a few generations. Then Britian and Europe and Canada and....

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becomming not losing yourself as a dad
Posted by: sglanfer on Apr 30, 2009 7:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hard to understand or explain, but my experience there are countless ways I have become yourself and become a man only through becoming a dad.

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Toby
Posted by: Toby on May 4, 2009 6:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a gay man whose adoted son is about to graduate with an MA and honors from an Ivy League university, i feel sorry for men who are so developmentally disabled they would rather play xbox than raise a child.A man can know no greater gift than the love of a good son. However, if that is what they prefer, they should by all means do it. As others have pointed out, we have too many people here now. Also, Peter Pan made a great playmate but would have been a terrible, self-centered, tantrum prone father.

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MOST GAY MEN I KNOW ARE NOT "BREEDERS"
Posted by: joeocho88 on May 4, 2009 7:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SO WHAT KIND OF WEIRDNESS IS IN THIS ARTICLE?

I KNOW LESBIANS WHO ARE IN LONG TERM RELATIONSHIPS AND ARE RAISING GREAT KIDS BUT THEY ARE USUALLY ADOPTING THE UNWANTED, AT-RISK KIDS AND WORKING MIRACLES DAILY! SO ARE THE GAY GUYS I KNOW.

SO WHY IS HAVING BIOLOGICAL CHILDREN GAY WHEN THE GAY MEN I KNOW ALWAYS DONATE VIA IN VITRO FERTILIZATION AND NOT BY DIRECT DELIVERY?

ME THINKS THIS WRITER IS HUNG UP ON GAY MEN.
GAY MEN ARE TERRIFIC! AND SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO MARRY EACH OTHER.
SAME FOR LESBIANS!

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Yikes! Alternet is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for material . . .
Posted by: charles000 on May 7, 2009 5:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yikes! Alternet is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for material . . .

News flash, memo from the real world to Alternet:

A lot of men don't want to get tricked and trapped into a forced obligation for child support.

Got that?

This bizarre attempt to dress up this issue by projecting it into some sort of esoteric "gay" gender orientation psycho-drama is about as desperate attempt to grasp at straws as I have ever seen published anywhere.

Well, OK, I give the author credit for way outside the box "creative" writing . . .

There's even more than a bit of humor hiding in here.

But to actually take this concept as being presented seriously?

This is a comedy skit in the making, right???

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