Have you ever considered a vasectomy? It would release you from those whims.

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I agree somewhat.

Men should also be able to make a "choice". To choose to take care of the child or not.

But Honky.....you despise children?
A little harsh, don't you think? My 9 year old daughter is my world. She's also a blast and we have a great time together.

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Oh, really? I certainly hope that you're smart enough to WEAR A CONDOM, because if you're not, then you deserve all the anxiety that a man who doesn't have the smarts to wear one feels when he's told the worst two words that a woman can say to him: "I'm pregnant."

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and remove yourself from the planet.

But, if you had the guts to do that you'd be missing all the fun of twisting the tails of all the "liberals" from the comfort of you parent's basement. Wouldn't you?

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Because I have no idea where to start trying to answer the questions you ask. Number one, I've never had to face it. I was born before the procedure was legalized, as were all three of my sisters. My brother was born in spite of the issue being raised and considered. It would be a copout for me to suggest some kind of generational thing as my excuse for not raising this question with my sisters. To the best of my knowledge we are all pro-choice (even though one of my younger sisters became a Catholic so she would get the really cool wedding). The main reason I never considered marriage is because I never really wanted kids, and I refuse to make excuses or apologize to relatives who seriously won't accept my reasoning. Both of my parents came from (in my humble opinion) unreasonably huge families. Enough already, I say. One hundred more "octuplet moms" and everybody else can rest up for a generation or two. Try to drink moderately. People might think you're trying to numb what clearly doesn't bother you much. Life is short. At the bottom of this gravity well, we are all related. One big happy family, nobody more distantly related than fiftieth cousin. Look it up. Think about it, and let it make you feel good about yourself. Mahalo!

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My mother had an abortion which she didn't tell me about until I was in my 30's, and it DOES have an effect on you and you family if you have one.

I wondered what my life would have been like if I had an older brother/sister which never came to be, my mother still wasn't sure she made the right choice when she told me.

It's easy to say "abortion is a matter of choice" for a woman who's never had a family or children, but abortion should preferably be the last option.

My mother definitely has some regrets about the decision she made, and I'd rather have intelligent women with a sound head on their shoulders speak about the issue, then anyone else. Not all women are equally mature on the issue.

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Since when are articles for publication submitted under the by-line of "anonymous"? I haven't read this article, and probably won't, with an author that can't share his/her own name. Even if the subject matter is deeply personal or risky, any journalist needs to make themselves known.

And if not that, Mark Twain yourself.

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Because the decision to have or not have abortion is a serious, difficult, psychologically complex, emotionally fraught one for everyone involved. I agree that a man who did not have anything to do with the conception really has no stake in it after the fact. But to ask why men in general should find the decision to be morally and emotionally complex is quite disingenuous, especially considering that no man can ever understand that choice in the same way that a woman can.

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In the meantime, your existing lives will be economically trashed, environmentally ruined, and you can end up getting aborted when you're thrown into illegal wars and occupations either as a military contractor or as a soldier. Real conservatives and real liberals would actually butt out and leave it to the women, their doctors, and GOD. The more America keeps obsessing with "abortion", the more GOD will continue to PUNISH America with a dysfunctional electorate. Main Street needs to unite and drop the "abortion" issue and GUN DOWN Wall $treet !

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from all the posts so far on this article, there seems to be an accepted rationale that a woman who happens to get pregnant MUST react emotionally, stuff maternal 'instincts' and tearfully drag herself off to have an abortion, motherhood pangs vs. what is best for her future...

the author fully admits she wasn't careful about taking her pills and the odds went against her one month... she informed the father that she was not going through with the pregnancy, had no maternal connection to this one, so why do others have to become so emotionally charged on the issue of abortion??? her abortion!!! why is it not socially acceptable for her NOT to berate herself over her decision???

in the future, she will probably NOT come out of this experience with the social expectation of developing PTSD, depression, or other self harming behaviors, plus when and IF the time comes, she will become a great mom because she made her own decision about her life previously...

know of one woman who has a genetically inherited disease who can't use her limbs and lives in a wheelchair and in constant pain... right now she is very high risk pregnant and in her 3rd trimester... she refused to abort or at least adopt out... refused to even have an amnio to see if the genetic condition also affects the fetus (amnio might cause miscarriage), has no way to physically take care of an infant on her own, is facing a c section because labor alone could end her life, has a deadbeat boyfriend who lives off her SSD... her own life is in jeopardy from the effects of this pregnancy on her body... hopefully she will live through the end of this pregnancy, but all bets are off right now... and she has said that if she ever becomes pregnant again, she is sure she will make the same decisions...

this is the right to life movement in reality...

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the thought of killing an innocent little life form and tossing them in an incenerator or trash might be the hang up other than that I cant think of why they might freaked out. This article writer probably then sheds tears during a PETA meeting about a chicken being killed

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Even die-hard liberals who would wax on about a woman's right to choose were downright uncomfortable when actually presented with a woman who chose.

Hey, watch who you're maligning, there. Your sentence implies that ALL liberal men have problems when faced with women who've had abortions. Have you actually TALKED to ALL liberal men?

As with all humans - male or female - you'll get different reactions from different men. Personally, I don't give a damn. I've dated women who've had abortions, and in fact married one.

I find it interesting that the author even reacted negatively to a male friend who was supportive.

I suspect it's not the men in this story with the problem. But rather the author is projecting her own feelings on the men around her, instead of admitting to herself that she's not so nonchalant as she says she is.

(&btw I'm strongly pro-choice, as my many posts on the subject show.)

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We liberals go around trying to convince people that pro-choice is not pro-abortion ... and then people will write essays like this, belittling any left-leaning male who isn't casual, gung-ho, and positive about abortion.

Pro-"choice" no longer includes the option of feeling the least bit uneasy about terminating a pregnancy.

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And now some guy is judging you based on the choice you made.

Isn't that so much better than him having judged you as the sum of your body parts?

Congratulations, you were looked at as a person. Why does that bother you?

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No, they're not inconsistent. They're really elitists just like the conservative Rethugs but who would know? If a so-called "liberal" rants on and on against abortion, chances are he/she is just a sellout and a phoney. This is why 3rd parties are sorely needed to get gubbmint off our bodies. The war on drugs and the war on women share this trait of gubbmint intrusion on personal lives. If these so-called "liberals" really believed in life, they wouldn't be bailing out Wall $treet or throwing young men and women in harm's way. Time to drag those phonies out in the streets and maim them hard as hell !

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You know, just because some folks will not cede to the state the authority to force a woman to give birth or a couple to be parents, that doesn't mean we don't think you aren't killing an innocent human being. You are. Sorry. It's just not "murder" in the legal sense because that's not how the majority of cultures look at it and shit, we all got to get along. But women (and the men who knock them up and then accede to the abortion) are still baby killers. Try keeping your legs closed, or stick to oral sex and masturbation if there's a chance you'll have to terminate an innocent life. Is that so damn hard?

"That's one more kid that'll never go to school
Never get to fall in love; never get to be cool."

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Well what was he supposed to say exactly?

"Well that's fascinating....How's your spaghetti?"

He probably has tons of experience talking about sports injuries with his buddies but It's not as though every day you have people wandering around talking about abortion (unless of course you live with a bunch of right wingers).

I don't consider myself liberal (though I am definitely left of center) I have no problem with a woman's right to choose. But I don't like the idea of abortion. Not because I'm some bible thumper or I think a fertilized egg is a person. But because I believe that people should own up to their actions. Even so, I'm not going to sit there and tell someone else "You must have this child" and logically I realize that though any fragger can insert tab A into slot B not just any fragger can be a decent parent.

That said, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't know what to say about the "I just had an abortion recently" conversation either.

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Honky,

It's not inappropriate to suggest that writers should be willing to use their own names on their articles. Perhaps you could just try to be a little more tactful about it.

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I SWEAR THERE IS A MAN HATING AGENDA ON THIS WEBSITE AND I AM TIRED OF IT.

IF YOU WERE TO SPEW THE SAME HATEFUL GARBAGE ABOUT WOMEN YOU WOULD BE SUED WITHIN AN INCH OF YOUR LIVES AND DRIVEN FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

BUT AS IT STANDS YOU FOUND A CONVENIENT SEXIST LOOPHOLE TO CONSTANTLY USE FOR YOUR HATRED.

YOU SHOULD ALL BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES AND THE AGENDA THAT YOU OWN.

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The cancer story was presented prematurely and is a tough act to follow. People are encouraged to be upfront about such things. So I guess I see his point. But I got the impression that you felt pressured to talk about your "surgery". His surgery left very little to be decided, yours was all your decision and rightfully so. I've never had an abortion but I see it as a deeply personal thing. Nobody judges people with illnesses. But it's always open season on abortion. Men have no idea whether or not they've ever been the reason for an abortion. It's a woman thing and maybe that's the way it should stay. I've always been in favor of keeping these records sealed and unavailable. Knowing serves no purpose. Thanks, ANNA

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It was most likely the fact that the surgery had to do with her uterus. Women's sexual organs are 'weird' and they do weird things and that freaks a lot of men out. Had she told him she had an ingrown toenail removed, he wouldn't have cared. Likewise, had she told him she had miscarriage and was devestated, he most likely would have still been uncomfortable. I've been married for 10yrs. Even after all this time, my husband isn't all that keen on knowing what's happening with my vagina and it's various parts...so long as it's in fine working order when he's down there, he could care less...LOL!

As for the author being anonymous...I don't blame her. Pro-life people have been known to murder abortion providers and bomb their clinics. She most likely would rather NOT have to listen to or read the inevitable death threats that would come her way. I myself have had an abortion...in between baby #1 and baby #2. Why? Because with baby #1 I was a young, silly girl who didn't believe the guy when he said he wasn't ready to be a father. As a result, I have been raising my son for the last 15yrs without that guy...and without support of any kind. I didn't want to take his money since taking his money gave him permission to see my son which he made clear he didn't want to do...so, whatever...he kept his money, I kept the kid...I got the better end of the deal. Three years later, I found myself in the same situation and this time I believed the guy when he said he wasn't ready. Since I wasn't ready to raise another child on my own, I had an abortion. I didn't have any angst and don't regret my decision. However, I don't go around telling everybody I meet. I'm not ashamed, but I would not feel completely safe telling everybody about it...word travels fast and gossip travels even faster and the last thing I need is to shot or have my car bombed by some maniac pro-lifer.

My advice to the author...keep the abortion to yourself from now on. Just as you wouldn't tell every guy about every yeast infection you have had, don't tell him about the abortion. Next time some guy asks if you have had surgery, go with tonsils or gall bladder or appendix...but ixnay on the ortion-abay.

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Your reproductive choices are your business. What I get freaked out about is my business. I resent being told what I must think about something in the privacy of my own head in order to be considered "smart" and "liberal" by you.

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FOR THE LAST TIME.....IF YOU HAVE A PENIS, YOU HAVE NO SAY EITHER WAY ON WHAT ANY WOMAN IS THIS COUNTRY DECIDES TO DO WITH AN UNWANTED PREGNANCY.

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Are they crunchy?

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Re: "If you get pregnant you will know your child loves you so you will decide not to terminate"---By that logic, one Intensive Care Unit day when we have a spouse or parent intubated and unconscious, and physicians recommend that it's time to turn off the respirator, we will know our dear one loves us, and say,"Never will I agree to that---we've got to keep Granny alive forever because she loves me". There is a time to say "Time to go" and "I can let go". A time to say "Continuing this isn't right". A time for courage---with love.

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...must be all the booze she's packin' in.

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1) Because men are different, even "smart, liberal" (however the hell you define it) ones, and they react differently.

2) Because there is an ethical dilemma.

3) Because you're asking them to relate to a situation they will never, ever directly relate to.

4) Because they may value maturity, or at least the trappings of it.

One of my best friends I worked with back in the Navy pushed me out of the way of a propeller out on the flight deck one day. It probably wasn't terrifically close, but it was close to appreciate the fact that he might have saved my life--in full headgear with all the hearing protection and background noise, props don't seem to make a sound, and they spin so fast they're invisible. Folks walk into them, occasionally and get blenderized. I didn't, maybe because of him.

Later, in a Speech class aboard ship, he read an essay about his background and his views on abortion, which were shaped not by "religious indoctrination" as lots of simple thinkers assume, but by the fact that his mother wanted to get rid of him, but coming up short for a ride to the clinic, tried doing it the old fashioned way. It failed, and he's here, achieved citizenship, and now he sends money back across the border to support his family, whom he loves and who loves him very much.

So, when you start foaming about the mouth regarding the similarities between a wart and a fetus, or a toenail and a blastocyst, forgive some of us (or don't, because I never called you back) if we assume you're either slow, flip, or simply don't get the difference between a potential life and a cancer. Hint: nobody ever gave birth to a cancer that did anything for anyone.

In the end I support your right to end your pregnancy. Don't ask me to stoop to some nasty level of stupidity in order to "bond" with you. My political position is simple, my opinion is much more complex. The end of a potential life isn't a trivial matter for me, and I won't make it so no matter how much I support your right to fix you and your partner's failing to understand the obvious consequence of sexual intercourse with an operation.

And no, reflection is not "freaking out" about abortion. You folks lend credence to the people who suggest you need to grow up more and have sex less.

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The one problem I have with the authors logic is that people who want abortion to be legal and available also have to be 100% ok with it, and not judge or question those who decide to have one.

I'm all for freedom of choice, but I don't think I'd ever abort myself. I try not to judge others because who knows whats its like in their shoes, but that doesn't mean I don't question, consciously or not, their motives and reasoning behind their decisions. Because I wouldn't choose to have an abortion, I may not fully understand why someone else would, but I still don't want to take away their right to do so as safely as possible.

So, while plenty of guys are pro-choice, it doesn't mean they agree with the decision to abort. Its like prostitution, and porn; I can't stand either, but pretending that making them illegal will eradicate them from society is unrealistic.

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She said she didn't feel a connection to what was then "a bundle of cells." That's indifference.

You "despise" children, and clearly you also have considerably hostility towards women. That's hatred. Red-flags the size of monster trucks. Baggage galore. Take your pick.

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To all men: Unless you have given birth do
not make judgments. As soon as we get one
"genuine" man to go through pregnancy and
labor and birth you can say nothing. Women
have the right to have or not have a child.
End of discussion.

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The "right" response from the man depends entirely on how the woman feels. The author did not get emotional. Some other women are absolutely devastated. The author's right-answer man would be a hideous demon in the mind of the crushed woman, and the emotive, ultra-supportive Mr. Perfect for the despairing lady would be a maudlin, coddling nightmare for the author.

Much of the criticism we men receive deals with having the "wrong" reactions to women's feelings (sometimes even unexpressed feelings). So we are often punished for our lack of ESP.

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had to match hers toward the abortion, as she so clearly was hoping it would...he might have said; "So, you want a medal? Or a chest to pin it on?"

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http://www.alternet.org/story/83459/taking_it_like_a_man/

BTW-The ONLY abortion that ever made ME want to back away was the one in the white house the last 8 years.

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We'd been together for nearly a year - and she'd never told me about the abortion she had had years before we met.

And then her cat got killed - run over whilst we were away together on holiday.

Her brother had buried it in the back garden. These things happen cats get killed - and people get very distressed about it.

But her reaction was something else. This was much more than a dead cat to her.

She dug the cat up - and placed it in a box on her wardrobe in her bedroom.

I thought she would get over it - but she got worse. She appeared to me to have gone completely insane.

But she kept screaming - you do not understand

And then she told me

The cat was a replacement for her abortion. Now she had lost everything. Her baby - her cat.

I couldn't console her. No one could console her. She was unable to go to work. I simply couldn't cope.

I said - we will bury the cat now together - or we are finished.

She couldn't bury the cat - and I wasn't going to sleep in the same room as a dead cat for any longer.

The cat was her symbolic baby. We split up - though kept in touch. It took her months to get over it - and she lost her job in the process.

It was all down to the grief of the baby she aborted.

We both went our seperate ways - and then I contacted her again 20 years later.

We both had two children with our new partners and were happy to know each other was happy.

The emotional effects of abortion should not be discounted. People are different. It means nothing to some women but can be emotionally devastating to others like the death of a child.

Tony

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...poised and waiting for you!

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At the last estimate even ~40% of democrats are pro-life to some degree and that side is increasing while the ardent abortion support is decreasing. Go ahead ignore us, call us names but it will be at the peril of your ideology being exposed at the best eugenics and the worst murder. Your anonymous scrawl reads like the flippant remarks of a freshman trying to justify something via logical fallacies like tautology and straw men. Sad.

Until the 5th century in Europe parents who could not afford to feed their children would routinely leave them to die of exposure even if they were 10 years old. Hansel and Gretal ring a bell? Today morally we would universally condemn such a practice any where in the world and more of the more of that same world increasingly looks to women who "choose abortion" and the men who force them as such misguided souls or more appropriately if they have the means to support a child selfish monsters.

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I am strongly pro-choice. I think that abortion should be legal in order for it to be safe. But I say that without thinking of the embryo as being just like any other randomly discardable clump of cells. We may not have a legal duty to weigh carefully how that clump of cells might have a future, but I think we do have a moral duty to do so.

I came across an impassioned article recently by a woman who had had one of her two fetuses selectively aborted on medical advice, to improve the chances of the other one. Fine, many pro-choice people might say - that's between her and her doctor. The trouble is that the doctor may be poorly informed.

My wife had a very similar kind of pregnancy to the woman in the article, and our babies developed the same syndrome. Based on our extensive researches into the medical literature, we found that recent advances have meant that selective abortion of one fetus is no longer the treatment that offers the greatest chance of success. It is possible that the selective abortion the writer defended so passionately was not the option that would maximize the probability of a good outcome.

Therefore, leaving the matter entirely to a woman and her doctor kind of presupposes that the doctor at least will always know the latest information - and many doctors don't. About this syndrome in particular, TTTS, there is a great deal of misinformation around. Doctors are only human and may get things wrong. So should there also be some way for a party outside the woman and her doctor to ensure that the decision they take is based on the latest and best medical information?

Destroying that clump of cells is a weighty decision. Abortion should be - morally, even if one cannot enforce this legally - a fully legal and safe last resort once other options have been explored and found wanting.

Had we thought differently about it, we might have only one girl today, rather than the two healthy babies we are lucky enough to have. That matters.

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Why are some liberal males uncomfortable with abortion? Abortion is not just a "women's issue," but a secular human rights issue as well.

A rational, secular case exists for the rights of the unborn. Individual human life is a continuum from fertilization until death. Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent, adult, etc. are all different stages of human development. To destroy that life at any stage of development is to destroy that individual.

The real question in the abortion debate is not the seemingly absurd scenario of giving full human rights to human zygotes, but rather the thorny question of how to legally protect those rights without violating a new mother's privacy and civil liberties. And the right to privacy is not absolute. If parents are abusing an already born child, for example, government "intrusion" is warranted--children have rights.

Recognizing the rights of another class of beings limits our freedoms and our choices and requires a change in our lifestyle--the abolition of (human) slavery is a good example of this. A 1964 New Jersey court ruling required a pregnant woman to undergo blood transfusions--even if her religion forbade it--for the sake of her unborn child. One could argue, therefore--apart from religion--that recognizing the rights of the unborn, like the rights of blacks, women, lesbians and gays, children, animals and the environment, is a sign of social progress.

Again, recognizing the rights of another class of beings limits our freedoms and our choices and requires a change in our lifestyle--the abolition of (human) slavery is a good example of this.

This point was made clear by pro-life feminist Ginny Desmond Billinger, in an article entitled "Confessions of an Anti-Choice Fanatic," which originally appeared in the September/October 1982 issue of Minnesota Feminists For Life, and which was later reprinted in Pro-Life Feminism: Different Voices, in 1985:

"Let's take a look at just a few of the other issues that I, as an avowed antichoicer, am ready to address:

"Spouse and child beating--here, my position is unhesitatingly anti-choice. My perspective as a spouse, a parent, and a former child qualifies me to support all measures to remove from people the freedom to choose to abuse their family members--even in the privacy of their own homes.

"Drunk driving--Again, anti-choice. I'm afraid I must impose my morality on those who would choose to operate life-threatening machines while influenced by alcohol, and ask them to temporarily abstain from one or the other.

"Gun control--Despite the big-bucks, 'constitutional rights' lobbying by the NRA, I remain consistently anti-choice on this issue. The memory of a friend, forces me to reject any justification for handgun ownership without strict regulation.

"Endangered species protection--Faced with a whale-hunter or seal-clubber, I'll take a hard line anti-choice stand every time.

"Hazardous waste disposal--We're talking about the rights of corporate America vs. the average Joe here, but my anti-choice position still applies. The right to choose efficient business practices must always be weighed against the public's right to a safe environment. Ditto for occupational safety and health issues.

"I expect that these declarations will leave me open to censure; I will no doubt be labeled a heretic. The American principle of personal liberty would surely suffer with the propagation of my anti-choice philosophy...

"So call me what you will: pro-life, anti-choice, fetus-worshiper, anti-abortion. A thousand labels will never alter the certainty that the road to freedom cannot be paved with the sacrificed rights of others."

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What I'd like to say, though, is that I'm happy for the author of this article, happy she was able to find a safe, legal affordable abortion. In my youth, there was no such thing. It was definitely illegal, so women who chose abortion had to either pay huge sums of money or unsafe procedures (sometimes both).

I had an abortion, too, for what it's worth (it was expensive and safe) when I was 17. Being childless now, I'm not 100% sure I have no regrets, but based on what I knew at the time, it certainly was the right decision for me.

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and the reality is that if I had not had the abortions, I would have given birth to those two babies, and they would have been my own sons or daughters, and the sisters or brothers of my three living children. That is just simply a fact, with no judgment of the right or wrong of it.

The issue the author is purportedly talking about is not whether abortion is right or wrong, but about the reactions of men she knows. The strange thing about this discussion is the weird position men are placed in by the 'it's the woman's choice' argument. A woman is not alone when she gets pregnant, the man is intimately involved in the occasion. And if she makes a different choice, and doesn't have an abortion, he is going to be a father and responsible for the well being of this child for at least 18 years. And that child is going to want to know his or her father. Does anyone reading this not have at least some feelings about their father?

Since men do not get pregnant, it would be ludicrous for them to get to decide whether or not a woman should have an abortion, but it also seems strange that they have no say in the matter when it does have an impact on them.

As long as abortion is acceptable we are going to have to live with the cognitive dissonance of allowing one group of citizens (women) the power to decide whether another group (the unborn) are actually human or not. At the same time, we are giving no power at all to a group (men) who are just a closely related to the group (the unborn) whose humanity is being decided by the first group (women).

All humans have fathers and changing the name to 'fetus-daddy' doesn't change the reality.
Most children long to be loved by both their parents and we cannot disenfranchise men from fatherhood without creating a whole host of other problems.

I am old enough to remember when abortion was illegal and completely unacceptable. People were extremely careful about not getting pregnant out of wedlock. And if you did get pregnant, abortion was not really an option. I know everyone hears these stories about how women used to die by the thousands of illegal abortions, but it is just not true. You can check the death statistics of women of chld bearing age. Or even just think about your own family, did any women die under mysterious circumstances at a young age? I am not saying it never happened, but it was far more common to have a 'shotgun wedding'. This was not a happy circumstance, but it did force people to deal with the consequences of their actions. There even used to be a common saying, "There is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant." People don't say that anymore, because it is no longer true.

Times have changed. I remember when the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on Roe v. Wade. No one, not even one person that I know of, ever thought that any woman would actually 'choose' to have an abortion unless she was in extremely dire circumstances. And by dire, I mean like rape, incest or the likelihood of death for the mother. Most people felt there ought to be some compassion for women in those situations. No one at that time regarded it as a 'right' or a 'choice'. It took a few years for the woman's movement to reframe the issue in those terms.

Is the answer to try to go back in time when men and women were seen as equally responsible for whatever children they had?
I don't know. I don't think we have that option. It's too late. Sex is not really seen as being related to having a family, and women can conceive children without having sexual intercourse with a man. Marriage means something entirely different now.

I am not saying this is good or bad, or right or wrong. I am just saying this is the way it is.

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about an anonymous posting of personal reflections on abortion, a very real form of killing and torment is taking place in this country.

Over in AlterNet's "Environment" ghetto is this piece American Citizens In Appalachia Are Living In A State Of Terror

If you can tear yourselves away from picking at each other over an individual's individual, private choice, perhaps you might spare a few moments for an entire region of this country that is literally under attack from more high explosives than we've used in Iraq.

Just sayin'.

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I don't know any liberal guys who object to abortion.But such a reaction could be psychological or philosophical. For the philosophical side see the abortion chapter in book 4 of the free ebook series http://andgulliverreturns.info It goes over the pros and cons from 3 ethical viewpoints.
From the psychological side it could be an unconscious feeling that it is killing s humsn being.Or it could be the realiztion that the woman is a 'useds' virgin and subconsciously he wanted to be firt. It's a power drive illustration.

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For all those guys she dated, seems to me she's gotta pick better.

Plenty of us wouldn't and are NOT freaked out by abortion. (We're just freaked out by the craptastic promotion of it as a destructive anomaly. Well, that and being forced into a life as a eunuch against our will...)

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When a woman is promiscuous she had better take her pills regularly and timely. I know that because of my cousin who was the talk of the college many years ago because she liked men a little too much and had at least three abortions before she wised up. I remember having to field questions from the dean of women as to where she was and being embarrassed to respond that I didn't know even though we did had the same address (truth was that she was on a plane to Mexico for one of her "operations"). So things have changed a lot since then. Today it is simply another decision like many others that women make for many reasons, some entirely selfish, others not so much. Regardless it's a decision that should only be a woman's to make with perhaps some help from her doctor. Even the "current" man in her life should have no say whatsoever in the decision. It's her body and her life. The fact that men whether liberal or not feel squeamish is probably due to their sorrow for the loss of potentiality of life. Was that the next Einstein that just got flushed down the toilet? No one will ever know but some may care even if it's not the woman involved, but once again it's no one else's business. So go ahead and do what you have to do!

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I am 110% pro-choice, but this post skeeved me on several levels.

1. "...when confronted with a woman who chose." All women chose (when they have the legal option)--the vast majority chose to carry to term. In other words, choice is for every woman to contemplate her decision, not just the ones choosing abortion.

2. Whole lot of drinking going on in this poster's world and decision making--highly unhealthy behaviour and choice-making.

3. The callous tone of the anonymous poster, including mocking male friends who showed sympathy to her, makes me wonder if this post was written by a right-winger trying to make the pro-choice position look bad.

That's just for starters--something is very amiss with this post.

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I have noticed that the men I know who helped to conceive a child which was aborted was that they seemed pretty devastated. My take was that the abortion was ultimately a rejection of them and their genes. No one wants this. Of course this does not apply to all men. There are plenty of men who will press a woman to have an abortion, but this has been the case with men I have known.

I have had three abortions. I did not tell the men who got me pregnant that I was pregnant. One case was from a drunken one night stand. The other two were from men I was in a relationship with, but they were not going well. I could not see being tied to these men for the rest of my life. They were already treating me terribly. I do see an abortion as the taking of a life, but I also feel that a woman has a right to choose to do this. Until we liberate a fetus from being dependent on a woman's body I believe terminating a pregnancy is her inherent right.

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but I just wouldn't tell a guy about an abortion. Some things are women's business.

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Wow, that was a bit strong.

I don't condemn anyone for having an abortion within the very early stages of pregnancy.

However when it gets to beyond the stage where my sister gave premature birth to a baby under 2lbs - and she survived - and is now living very happily with her family in New England USA - then it is another matter altogether

Now of course you can take an idealist view about sperms and the point of conception - when a human being is formed

But what about all the sperms and eggs who lost out?

Every Sperm Is Sacred

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Come on now! Reality check please. 1 Million fetuses every year. It's a bit much. I KNOW it's a personal choice. I KNOW it's legal. So you can go ahead and do it and never be jailed. You can do it in the 9th month if you can find a doctor who is willing. But how can you be blithe about it? And why do others have to be positive about it? Are people supposed to be happy that you killed your baby? How can you even want others to be indifferent? Are you nuts?

What do Pro-Abortionists tell themselves and others? Are they still saying that a fetus is not human, is not alive and has no vitality? Are they telling each other that although so many are spending millions to fertilize even one tiny egg - and are ecstatic at every glimmer of hope that a given egg has been fertilized - that their particular fetus is nothing, is detritus, has no potential, was not a miracle? One fetus is worth $60K and but your was no more than cellular trash? Are women trying to tell themselves that it was not a human life, just because they did what you felt you needed to do? When a woman has an abortion she is making a choice - between something, whether convenience, money wealth, social stature, comfort or personal preference, and the life of someone - your own flesh and blood from your own dna pool.

I would like pro-abortionist women like the author to confront the truth. Stop pretending that abortion is not the ending of a life, albiet not in its finite form. Please admit that if you had done nothing - your pregnancy would have lead to life; you would have had a baby. Please admit that this baby needed you and would have done so for at least 12 years. It would have loved you and you would have been it's mother. You were all it had and you threw it all away. i KNOW you have have reason. But it all boils down to the end of a life. Please don't try to sell this experience as anything other than a terrible loss. Your lack of remorse is shocking.

PS: I welcome the subject matter of this article. But I really resent this particular article because of its brutish, crude language, vile imagery and values, vulgar references to sex acts and insidious put downs of other Americans for merely trying to lead morally coherent lives - the author discounts such efforts, apparently seeing them as wasted energy. The values expressed by the author repel me, they are appear akin to those of Courtney Love, a powerful, liberated woman but one whose projects a contemptible, degenerate sexuality and decrepit morality. Should women such as Courtney Love be encouraged to lead and influence other women? Where will they them?

I resent Alternet assuming that being liberal, I want to hear from morally spineless authors, who infuse crude sexual imagery into non sexual subjects. I would ask Alternet to be more discerning in its choice of writers. American women are in enough trouble as it is - Why post articles from the morally adrift?

Lastly I would state that I am anti-abortion, anti-criminalization of abortion, pro-child, pro-life, pro-hope, pro-love and pro-cooperation. I do hope that every American come to truly understand FOCA and its future impact.

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They just like having lots of sex with lots of different girls - and have had it programmed deep within their subconscious often due to their religious indoctrination not to use a condom

Or they have tried using a condom

And it disturbs the moment of penetration and then it doesn't feel half as good

So - well there's no way they are going to give up sex with as many girls as possible

And know that all this crap about Aids is nonsense and just fuck away

Now the problem is if you actually understand anything about Maths and Exponential Growth

Oh and whilst in India last year I visited a Roman Catholic Church in Cochin

It was a very old Catholic Church - one of the first in India

Yet last year - it had a list of Mortal and Venial sins Prominently displayed outside the Confessional

It was so interesting I took photographs of all the detailed listing of sins - both Mortal and Venial

A Mortal sin means that when you die you will go to hell for all eternity

To my amazement onanism was clearly defined as a mortal sin

Now I always thought I was being a Good Boy when on a one night stand - when she said something like - only if I can trust you implicitely - I pulled it out at the last second and squirted all my sperm all over her tummy

But according to the Roman Catholic Church - I am an onanist - and I should not have pulled it out and instead have ejaculated as far up her vagina as possible

So being a good Holy Roman Catholic Boy - I have accepted this advice

I'm now aiming for 100 Children

So far I've only got Two

Tony

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Portrait From My Younger Days

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You ask: "Why Are Even Smart, Liberal Men Freaked Out by Abortion?" My friend Ellie knows why: If men could get pregnant, we'd hear no more male protests about abortions.

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...that she did.

I find this strange. Isn't the "liberal position" that everyone should have their own - one might say, his or her own - view of this issue? Yes, ultimately it's only the woman who can exercise a choice, but since when does that mean that her partner is somehow disallowed from having any particular opinion of his own, or forbidden from expressing it without being accused by his partner of "freaking out", if his view doesn't happen to coincide with hers?

As for the idea that men rarely if ever confront abortion except in the "abstract", I'd be a bit careful about that. Beyond the fact that many potential fathers may have very real feelings about an impending birth, other situations can arise where the choice is even more stark. Following the birth of our first child five years ago, who turned out (unexpectedly) to have Down syndrome, my wife and I made the decision to have a second a few years later. We did CVS testing early in pregnancy to ascertain whether or not there was any chance of a birth defect, including a possible recurrence of Down syndrome; certainly the thought was running through both our heads what to do if the test provided unwelcome information. I personally am opposed to abortion in most circumstances, though I believe it should always be the woman's choice; my wife's views are a lot less "restrictive", however, and there's no doubt that if the CVS had shown some sort of serious problem, she would have opted to terminate the pregnancy.

As it turned out, the test was fine, and we had a healthy son. Still, though, does the fact that my own views conflicted with hers mean that I had no right to express them, or that my wife was somehow entitled to dismiss them summarily as a form of "freaking out"? We're both adults, and married, after all, and the decision to try for another child was a mutual one.

To reframe things differently, were I to choose to have a vasectomy, would it somehow be appropriate to dismiss my wife's potential opposition to the procedure as a form of "freaking out", rather than involving her in a discussion over the issue - whether or not I was ultimately persuaded by her arguments?

The author seems to feel that the men she meets or dates or otherwise engages with should either keep silent over the issue of her abortion, or else adopt her views uncritically. That's not the way adults tend to, or frankly should, behave when it comes to issues like this. Men aren't entitled to make the decision to abort, true - but they ARE entitled to have an opinion - they ARE entitled to express it - and they ARE entitled to have it listened to respectfully.

If the woman doesn't like or agree with her partner's views, by all means let her (or him) terminate the relationship. That's what happens sometimes as a result of honest dialogue between adults.

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It may not have been on this thread and O.K. it was not necesarily Michelle

I think his initial was P

But where is the post?

I can't find it

Heve Alternet deleted it - without any trace

By the way - your search engine is crap

So I was going to reply to

pfeiffer

Of course I am barking mad

But I haven't hit anyone since the age of 14 - and he really deserved it

And I have never hit any woman or girl

And no one has hit me since I was in primary school

Well except my wife (then girlfriend)

When I went completely barking mad in 1985 and gave absolutely all our money away to Sir Bob Geldof's Live Aid to hopefully keep a few thousand starving Africans alive

But I went further than that

I maxed out all our debt capability to give

I simply couldn't give any more away

So I deserved her beating me up

Her parents wouldn't help us

So she pawned her gold bracelet to buy us food

I thought what an Angel

She could simply have left me

And so I got my head back together

Gave up all the drugs

And went back to work starting again at the bottom

And fought my way back

And then a couple of years later we decided we wanted to have children

And got married and did

Tony

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Do any of you realize how easy it is to be kicked off of Alternet?

It happens all the time.

One minute, you're having a perfectly reasonable and calm debate with people, and the next you have an email that says 'BANNED' in the subject line. There is no explanation of why you were banned, or where you crossed the line.

I know one person to whom this happened and it turned out that the editor of the subject matter just took a personal dislike to the person posting.

There are some very harsh censors on this website, so be careful what you say.

They pretend to be pro-democracy, and pretend to support free discussion of issues, but the reality is very different. Say something they don't approve of and you'll find yourself banished to the gulag......with no warning.

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The whole article would have been unnecessary if years ago somebody had noticed that 'pro-lifers' don't care for human life outside their tribal, relligious and cultural circles, and asked "Why is that?"

Their focus on abortion is so strong as to preclude care for the very lives they claim to want to "rescue." To learn about the aborticentric nature of the movement, its causes and its existence as a dysfunctional twelve-step program, you're welcome to critique my analysis: http://web.mac.com/charlesgregory/aborticentrism/

If you can't find or open it, let me know, and I'll connect you to it. Any input is welcome. rrtlatsoverdotnet

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There are 2 types of abortion; induced and spontaneous. Spontaneous abortions are euphemisticly referred to as "miscarriages" and account for 2/3 of all abortions. In any given time 1000 women will get pregnant and on an average 667 of them will spontaneous abort within the first month or so. Natural selection at work. Induced abortions are a very small percentage of the total. Spontaneous abortions are the result of something wrong with the cell mass, the lining of the uterus, chemical imbalance or a multitude of other factors. I fail to comprehend the difference between the woman's body rejecting a beginning pregnancy or her mind rejecting it. Don't go all fairy tale with the superstitious nonsence thing, this is biology, pure and simple.

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I didn't give "liberal" men a chance to comment on my abortion because I didn't tell any of them except my husband. I told him after we'd been seeing each other for more than a month, which was roughly 6 mo after the abortion, which I do not regret at all and never have regretted. If I'm "unnatural" then so be it. Anyway, I never told my liberal guy friends about it because of a terrible experience with a so-called feminist boyfriend I dated years before, who would spout liberal ideals but then not apply them to myself or how we related to each other in our relationship. He'd talk about women's oppression but then not be able to see that I was part of that demographic. Prick. Anyway, yes, I was also not seeing the father by that time, the pregnancy was due to a lapse in pill taking and miscalculation of ovulation and I was below poverty lines. I am sure that guys don't really want a call from some girl they had sex with a few times and moved on from to find out they're going to be paying child support for the next 18 years. The other alternative is what I chose to do. It seems perfectly natural.

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Good story, Bad headline.

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Examples: Well, "Juno" is easy. Here's the proof. In the book "Joy Luck Club" by Amy Tan a woman in an abusive, destructive relationship gets an abortion. In the Hollywood version -- She MURDERED her child. YES it's true. She gave birth and then drown the child. The abortion scene was too controversial.

So let me get this straight -- it's better to drown your child after birth rather than have an abortion. OK. Now I understand. Thanks Hollywood.

There is constant, subtle pressure to promote the birth of white (and make no mistake about the color) babies.

My solution? I told my sons. I just had to. When it came up in conversation. Like the author -- why should I be shamed about something I'm NOT shamed about? I did the right thing at the time. It was one of the few decisions of my youth that I knew immediately what I wanted to do. And guess what? I was right to choose abortion!

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I appreciated this post, as I feel it enlightened me as to the stigma that a woman sometimes endures after she has exercised her lawful and entirely personal right to self-determination. How else would I know?

Some of the pontification in the comments section I find troubling, but is to be expected, and underscores the fact that the author was correct to remain anonymous.

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I fully understand why anonymous wants to hide her identity. We live in a patriarchal world and because of that imbalance of power, women who thwart patriarchal values are vulnerable to retaliation. Patriarchal values are fixated on taking the natural power of reproduction away from women and putting it in the hands of men. Shame is the most powerful weapon patriarchal forces have, and inhibiting frank and honest discussion of abortion is an effective method of reinforcing the shame message. So I applaud anonymous for speaking out about her experience. It helps to dispell the shame message.

Why is shame so effective? It's effective because women know that with their reproductive power comes an awesome responsibility. Every woman wants to know that she has made good decisions about whether and how to reproduce and care for her family. As part of the larger society, women need to be responsive to the welfare of the group. So when she gets a heavy shaming message about ending a life, it's hard to sort that out. It's equally hard for men, even liberal men. The reason it is so hard is because there is not a widespread countervailing ethic to the so-called "pro-life" ethic.

However, in my research I have discovered an ancient ethic around abortion that I call the "pro-Gaian" ethic. This is a pro-life ethic but it is based on the welfare of the whole planet. Within this ethical system, a woman may decide to abort an embryo because she is not ready to take on the task of motherhood. Her decision is further validated by the needs of the ecosphere - the collectivity of life on planet earth. The ecosphere is increasingly threatened by human overpopulation. If humanity is going to survive, we must stop population growth. Let's do it in the most humane way possible. Let's avoid war, disease and starvation and instead concentrate on ensuring that all children are wanted children. This simple principle would avoid half or more of births every year which are adding 80 million more people to the planet annually. From this point of view, bringing an unwanted human life to term is an assault on the planet.

Anonymous says that the one thing she most needs is a way to talk about abortion, to get past the shaming stigma of it. I suggest that she consider the pro-Gaian ethic. I have put a compendium of stories, myths and images supporting the pro-Gaian ethic on a website - www.earthislandangels.com. Check it out!

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I'm inclined to remind anyone who has thoughts of excising that "bunch of cells" that the fetus so comprised is not a kitten nor a frog, but by DNA and eventual outcome (if so allowed), a human child. It is my personal belief that such excision constitutes the killing of that human child. I see no other way to look at it. I find it repulsive in the extreme. And yes, I have indeed had a vasectomy, so I will never give anyone a "reason" no mater how specious, to feel the "need" to kill that tiny person.
Bill Whedon

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Don't like them, go to a site that is sympathetic to your point of view. As A. J. Leibling said: "Freedom of the press belongs to the man who owns the press."
Same thing for weblogs.

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If we can exterminate these “bunch of cells” to reduce population, why not exterminate all criminal convicts too?

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you have the reproductive right to put a condom on it....

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for a long as they don't want to get pregnant...and see if they don't mess it up every once in a while

i've taken the pill for 15 years (we don't want children - and due to health reasons, the last thing i want to do is carry a child)- i have, during this time, messed up my pill schedule several times - it happens - however, due to my fanatical vigilance after such instances, i've never become pregnant as a result

however, i wonder if the men the author is talking about (or even men in general, who are so rabidly against a woman's right to chose) would be so judgmental if they were the ones who were taking the daily pill and screwed it up - resulting in something that has the obvious effect of altering the course of their entire lives, for better or for worse - then, if deciding for an abortion, were judged for "not accepting the consequences"

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Ordinary men in general like me do not question a woman's decision. We have absolutely no right to do that. It is only men with an agenda of some kind...Be it political or religious that feel the need to impose their standards upon women...I say, let them join the ranks of the men who subscribe to those religious fanatical beliefs. Otherwise, if they live in a free and Democratic society; Shut their pieholes!

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I'm not yelling because I'm freaking out... I'm yelling to be heard!!!

It's not just a womens issue...

Its an issue of rights to "YOURS" and "MY" body... to do, what my doctor and I think is BEST FOR ME, regardless of what the religious freaks think!

men only freak about abortion because we rarely "find out" or "know about" it before its to late.

is that what your meaning by men being freaked out?
freak out
freak

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I apologize for waxing poetic about this article, but it really is the post-abortion discussion that most mirrors my experience. Humor continues to be the most reliable way to express my short time as a pregnant woman... You know, there is so much history and so many discussion that when you abort, it is completely surreal. Because abortion is not like the stories or the norms - even liberal ones - say it is.

Also, I completely identify with the the author's experience of clamming up more about the experience after its taken place. Really. I was a heartbeat away from telling a co-worker on a date a three days after. On our second date, I told a nice guy all about my abortion and how my breasts were bigger "just last month..." And now, well, now I have to hold the "well, when I had morning sickness..." quips because telling the story sometimes unleashes more than even the most empathetic guys can laugh with.

It's all very odd. Right after the abortion I was adamant that we, as a society, need to talk about the procedure and that I needed to meet people outside the clinic who have seen an bundle an odd bundle of cells on an ultrasound screen and then skipped away, free, amazed at medicine and clinic staff... and I've slacked in my search. But clearly, I appreciate that even if I haven't hung out with people like me, they are out there!

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Are men afraid of being a partner in abortion?

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In my efforts to avoid having an abortion, and knowing that I'm an airhead who barely remembers to eat lunch let alone take the pill perfectly, I have asked three different doctors about being surgically sterilized. I do not want kids. I don't want them now. I don't want them 20 years from now. I don't want them ever.

No doctor is willing to perform a tubal ligation on a childless woman my age (28). I am astonished by this. One doctor told me that her malpractice insurance rates would skyrocket if her insurance company found out she did the procedure.

A male friend, who is a year younger than me and also childless, was able to schedule a vasectomy without incident or question. My birth control options are being limited by the assumption that all women want to have babies someday.

I will let others tell me what to do with my body should I become pregnant just as soon as ALL birth control options are made available to me.

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I felt so sorry for this author, but not for the reasons she wants me to feel sorry for her. I am sorry because she is deep into PTSD--no, it didn't start with the abortion, it started much earlier and accounts for her reaction to the abortion (like a "masturbation-related wrist pain"). She has been--or has allowed herself to be--used sexually and discarded like an old rag. No wonder she can't feel anything.

Imho, abortions are caused by MEN. Abortions will never decrease or stop until MEN take responsibility for their sexual behavior. This abortion will fall on the man who made used this girl sexually and discarded her. This man, and all those who preceded them, trained her to be who she is, may God not help them.

Red State Gal
RedStateFeminists

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What freaks me out is the power given to a woman to so easily change the end result of a bad decision.

She has made a mistake that holds the potential to change her entire life, and yet she can abort much more than a fetus. She can abort an entire future that lays in store for her. That powerful, it’s like nothing else I can compare.


I on the other hand, (being a male), would like to have a little of this power. If I get a woman pregnant why can't I claim "Sperm donor status"? Why can't I have a magic place to go to that would free ME from all the obligations, trials and tribulations that go along with parenting and supporting a child for life if she decides to keep it.

WHERE IS MINE?

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If the possibility of abortion freaks you out, you need to have a long conversation with any propective sex partner to determine her feelings about same. If she demands reproductive autonomy, and you don't want her to have it, then you need to move on to someone who shares your view on the subject. If you are going to screw first and ask questions later, you have to expect that the result may not be to your liking.

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As a long-time out-of-the-closet gay man, I have my first male partner (sadly deceased) to thank for influencing my own opinion about a woman's unmitigated right to all decisions having to do with her body, particularly about abortion and other reproductive issues. In 1975 we were approached by a person on the street supposedly taking an opinion poll: "What are your thoughts on abortion?" He did not flinch in answering, "Abortion should be completely legal and free on demand!" At the time I was a young queerling still under too much influence from the straight male mindset I had tried in vain to adopt as my own. But he was enlightened beyond his years. It was not for shock value or out of anything less than sincerity: he was a bold and honest man. I fell that much more in love with him for turning on a bulb of reason in my own mind that has only grown brighter, I think, over the years. I do think that you have an uncommon boldness as well - just to be honest enough to write and speak so frankly about your experience. Go girlfriend! You GO!

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1. What is with all those "pro-life" advertisements with this story?

2. Men will not be comfortable if women are not. Posting as anonymous makes it difficult for one to see you as comfortable with abortion, can you really expect the men in your life to feel any more comfortable with the topic when you present it as something to be shameful for?

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1. This manufactured concern for the author's name reveals something, probably an urge to avoid the real topic.

2. Sounds like the dork with the testicular cancer is a real loser, and I hope that he isn't typical of the guys you have been meeting.

3. I don't know personally any guys who think that an abortion is any different from say an appendectomy.

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Is the appendix and pre natal much the same?

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I consider myself at least a little on the right of the bell curve, and quite the liberal liberal, yet couldn't possibly care any less whether a potential fuck buddie has had an abortion, neither do I care how many. Talk about 'em all day, I'll nod my head and politely wait for sex, what do I care? If it's only mentioned for a comedic gross-out factor (which would turn me on something fierce) I'm decent at one-upping.

Awfully conservative liberals, if you ask me.

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Are you better off the more your buddies have abortions?

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