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Reproductive Justice and Gender

The Fantasy of Acceptable 'Non-Consent': Why the Female Sexual Submissive Scares Us (and Why She Shouldn't)

By Stacey May Fowles, Seal Press. Posted December 29, 2008.


There is a guilt and shame among women who have fantasies of their own violation and express a desire to be demeaned.
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The following excerpt is from the book Yes Means Yes: Visions of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape, edited by Jaclyn Friedman and Jessica Valenti. Excerpted by arrangement with Seal Press, a member of the Perseus Books Group. Copyright (c) January 2009.

Because I'm a feminist who enjoys domination, bondage and pain in the bedroom, it should be pretty obvious why I often remain mute and, well, pretty closeted about my sexuality. While it's easy for me to write an impassioned diatribe on the vital importance of "conventional" women's pleasure, or to talk publicly and explicitly about sexual desire in general, I often shy away from conversations about my personal sexual choices. Despite the fact that I've been on a long, intentional path to finally feel empowered by, and open about, my decision to be a sexual submissive, the reception I receive regarding this decision is not always all that warm.

BDSM (for my purposes, bondage, discipline, dominance and submission, sadism and masochism) makes a lot of people uncomfortable, and the concept of female submission makes feminists really uncomfortable. I can certainly understand why, but I also believe that safe, sane and consensual BDSM exists as a polar opposite of a reality in which women constantly face the threat of sexual violence.

As someone who works in the feminist media and who advocates against violence against women and for rape survivors' rights, I never really felt I was allowed to participate in the fantasy of my own violation. There is a guilt and shame in having the luxury to decide to act on this desire -- to consent to this kind of "nonconsent." It seems to suggest you haven't known true sexual violence, cannot truly understand how traumatic it can be, if you're willing to incorporate a fictional version of it into your "play." But this simply isn't true: A 2007 study conducted in Australia revealed that rates of sexual abuse and coercion were similar between BDSM practitioners and other Australians. The study concluded that BDSM is simply a sexual interest or subculture attractive to a minority, not defined by a pathological symptom of past abuse.

But when you throw a little rape, bondage or humiliation fantasy into the mix, a whole set of ideological problems arises. The idea of a woman consenting to be violated via play not only is difficult terrain to negotiate politically, but also is rarely discussed beyond BDSM practitioners themselves. Sexually submissive feminists already have a hard enough time finding a voice in the discourse, and their desire to be demeaned is often left out of the conversation. Because of this, the opportunity to articulate the political ramifications of rape fantasy happens rarely, if at all.

You can blame this silence on the fact that BDSM is generally poorly -- often cartoonishly -- represented. Cinematic depictions are generally hastily drawn caricatures, pushing participants onto the fringes and increasing the stigma that surrounds their personal and professional choices. While mainstream film and television occasionally offer up an empowered, vaguely fleshed-out and somewhat sympathetic professional female dom (think Lady Heather from "CSI"), those women who are sexually submissive by choice seem to be invisible. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that they are left out of the picture because, quite simply, they scare us. Feminist pornographic depictions of women being dominated for pleasure are often those involving other women -- that's a safe explicit image, because the idea of a male inflicting pain on a consenting woman is just too hard for many people to stomach. For many viewers it hits too close to home -- the idea of a female submissive's consensual exchange of her authority to make decisions (temporarily or long-term) for a dominant's agreement to make decisions for her just doesn't sit well with the feminist community.

It's important to point out that, however you attempt to excuse it, this inability to accept BDSM into the feminist dialogue is really just a form of kinkophobia, a widely accepted prejudice against the practice of power-exchange sex. Patrick Califia, writer and advocate of BDSM pornography and practice, wisely states that "internalized kinkophobia is the unique sense of shame that many, if not most, sadomasochists feel about their participation in a deviant society." This hatred of self can be particularly strong among feminist submissives, when an entire community that they identify with either dismisses their desires or pegs them as unwitting victims.


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» Agreed. Posted by: AlexaD
» RE: Did you think otherwise? Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Did you think otherwise? Posted by: AMerrickanGirl
what do you really want
Posted by: chloelin on Dec 29, 2008 4:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rape isn't sexual - it's violence expressed with the sexual organ. It results in physical damage because we're dry, pain and unbearable humiliation. It messes up and maybe destroys our subsequent sex life. Do you really want to be raped? Are you sure you enjoy all this? Or do you want to have a strong person break down some kind of sexual inhibition?
I'd say that the woman's movement is about our freedom and you are entitled to enjoy sex any way you want if it doesn't harm others. If you really and truly want to be raped, then your fantasies are part of the freedom you rightly demand as a feminist. A good friend of mine, a real supporter of women and not a mere womaniser, has rape fantasies - he argues that he has had them since a boy and that his feminism is his rational and political reaction to the fantasies of which he is ashamed. Could this be a part of you? Whatever, my heart goes out to you, sister, in your resentment and confusion.

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» RE: what do you really want Posted by: AMerrickanGirl
» RE: what do you really want Posted by: DarkAphrodite
» RE: what do you really want Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
Violence and sex
Posted by: Smartcookie on Dec 29, 2008 6:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Force of motion and sex are powerful together, this one of the reasons why men and women get off on force.

I really think this is down to nervous system sensitivity and the human quest to experience what they haven't experienced. People get bored in life... and also some people use it to attempt to feel when their lives are stressful, repetitive often times and dull.

People always seek to feel alive in some way.

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I've seen both men and women who love getting bonded and tortured and taking it as a game.
Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 29, 2008 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They agreed to enter the risks associated with it all and even if they didn't, they should have sat down and drawn the lines first and foremost before getting into a locked mess. Over all though, it's just sickening to even imagine enjoying getting bonded and tortured, man or woman.

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Sex, fantasy and reality
Posted by: EinMD on Dec 29, 2008 6:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this is supposed to be some sort of indictment on feminists it's not a very good one. What you fantasize about doesn't equate to what you want in a non-fantasy setting. Do you honestly thing Reverend Aldridge (if you don't know who that is, google it) wanted to be dressed up in wetsuits, gas masks, rubber panties and sexual devices all day long every day?

There are hundreds of thousands of males who fantasize about the same exact thing, a good portion of them are in positions of power in their daily lives.

Fantasy is about a release from the every day stress you feel. A chance to occasionally take off the suit and tie and be someone else for a while. It doesn't matter if you're male or female, rich or poor, powerful or powerless or even what race you are.

Some people get that release from alcohol and drugs. Some get it from role-playing games like AD&D. Some get it from watching sports or playing sports. Some get it from bondage play or submission either in a sexual or non-sexual context.

The reality of it is that when the game is done, the last touchdown is scored, beer is finished or when the paddling session is over you pick up your clothes and go back to your normal lives. Most people do not drink 24/7 nor do they want to.

Even if these people you're talking about ('feminists') did these sort of things - it's consensual - what difference does it make? It's no like people from PETA who wear leather belts and boots. They're not just letting random assholes have control over them (at least in most cases - for some people that's their thing). It's one thing to submit to another voluntarily because it happens to be your kink but it's quite another to have someone else's will forced upon you as it would be in a case of actual (as opposed to simulated) rape or abuse. It doesn't make them any less ardent on women's rights, nor does it make them less of a 'feminist' or a person in general.

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Consent is everything!
Posted by: DivaDeb on Dec 29, 2008 6:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a submissive in the bedroom WITH MY HUSBAND. I don't want raped or tied up by a stranger. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

I am a feminist, politically active, and business owner/boss, and I feel that being submissive in a healthy, safe, sane, consensual relationship, has made me a better boss/supervisor. I totally wear the pants at home, too.

My husband and I actually start off wrestling - it is exhilerating! Sometimes, he "attacks" me from the dark hallway, or acts like he is an intruder. I wear pretty outfits, hooker heels, etc. hee hee hee It is fun and romantic and keeps our 10+ years marriage alive. We are in our 40s. Our real problem is the dogs barking. hee hee hee

My husband wants to make me happy, to please me, and I want to make him happy, please him, so we act out these things, it is give and take. We printed off the LONG consent form!

I had been traumatized with BDSM by my ex-husband, and sexually abused multiple times in my life. I felt "sexually safe" with my husband and told him so. He kept it a secret from me that he enjoyed BDSM, and I just found links in his history folder one day. I was shocked and a little hurt, but thought "well, if this was my friend, I would say 'your kink is okay.'" So, I looked at those links, I researched and we began very, very slowly, with my comfort level. I was the one who accellerated things and dove into it more and more.

My husband worries for my psychological safety, not wanting to call me slut or anything like that. He's this really nice guy and struggles to dirty talk. So, we joined a website that helped a bit. Some of their stuff turns me off, but just like any other porn - you have your likes/dislikes. They begin and end the videos talking about it, etc, and there is a "Model's Rights" every model gets. But, too, some of the comments sections are a bit disturbing and we worry we are contributing to some bad people's actions.

I am actually open about my sexuality, because so many people have serious problems, and so many people dabble in BDSM - usually when drunk/high. I caution against this because this is where injuries occur - it is not safe or sane.

Thanks for the article, it said alot of what I have been thinking regarding these areas of my life.

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It's a tough thing to look squarely at our fantasy life...
Posted by: Peak Shrink on Dec 29, 2008 7:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's even tougher to trust someone enough to act it out.

The author has done a good job describing the issues related to BDSM and feminism. We live in a world utterly obsessed with power, control, and violence. We see this co-mingling of sex and violence more often in slasher films, than in mainstream pornography. It is a sick culture when, to kiss a breast gives a film an “R” rating, whereas to stab it gets it a “PG-13,” as Gail Dines says.

In films, a person gets into a car to drive an hour, and the next scene shows them exiting the car, but we all know what went on in-between. Not so in areas less accessible to us, like sex. This is the danger of mainstream pornography, which is accepted, (unconsciously perhaps), as “edu-tainment,” or “how to.” Most of us don’t know what “boring parts” are skipped over. They are invisible to the viewer, and therefore don’t exist. This creates problems not only for BDSM but also anal sex.

While embroiled in this sort of cultural soup, the capacity to “own” ones sexual fantasies is an act of self-affirmation. To trust someone enough to mutually construct them into a play session, is downright liberating. Anyone who demands that what turns them on correspond to some intellectual idea, is exceptionally lucky to still find intense eroticism in the bedroom.

Those who are unaware of the BDSM community will have a hard time understanding where humor, mutual respect, ground-rules and trust fit into it. Those who’ve discovered their preference for BDSM play, find relief that they can finally keep their “abuse” confined to sex. In the bedroom, it’s exciting. In the kitchen, it is nothing BUT oppressive.

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Men too
Posted by: curiousdwk on Dec 29, 2008 7:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I enjoy BDSM. I enjoy seeing both men and women in BDSM scenes. I fantasize being the dom and I also fantasize being the sub. I don't fantasize humiliation scenes or real abuse. I love sensations. So it is just as likely I will fantasize feeling both pleasure and pain. My BDSM fantasies are not based on de-humanizing either one gender or the other.

Thanks you, author, for bringing out that women can feel that way too.

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Thank you, but still some questions
Posted by: theminutepast on Dec 29, 2008 7:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for this piece and for separating BDSM practiced by knowledgeable partners from mainstream hardcore pornography.

I was unconvinced that a woman can be empowered through BDSM. The whole point of BDSM is to lose power and to submit. It seems like you're slapping the empowered label onto BDSM to make it more acceptable to feminists among whom empowered is a key word.

I was also unconvinced that BDSM can be portrayed in pornography without being easily misunderstood. Showing a picture of the couple smiling afterwards isn't enough. The men I know who watch porn turn it off after the money shot or after they orgasm. They wouldn't look long enough to see the picture at the end, and is a picture really even sufficient to reverse the idea that the women love domination?

Also, I wish you had talked more about BDSM that reverses power. Doesn't it bother you that there isn't more porn where the woman has control over the man? Will it ever be possible to represent BDSM accurately in mainstream porn?

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» RE: Thank you, but still some questions Posted by: AMerrickanGirl
» RE: Thank you, but still some questions Posted by: demosthenes2010
NUTS
Posted by: shd1230 on Dec 29, 2008 8:00 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THIS IS NOT ONLY DISGUSTING, IT IS DANGEROUS. THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH PEOPLE WHO ENJOY THIS KIND OF THING. I CONDEMN ALTERNET FOR PUBLISHING THIS CRAP AS A SERIOUS ARTICLE.

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» RE: NUTS Posted by: Tombo
» RE: NUTS Posted by: lightinmyhands
» RE: NUTS Posted by: EinMD
» RE: NUTS AND CREEPY Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: NUTS AND CREEPY Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: NUTS AND CREEPY Posted by: lightinmyhands
» RE: NUTS AND CREEPY Posted by: garycathey
» RE: NUTS Posted by: goeswithness
Meh. I leave the judgmental stuff on bedroom choices to folks like Rick Warren.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Dec 29, 2008 8:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lol, am I a buh-buh-bayad person for being absolutely disinterested in what you do with your own naughty bits with other consenting adults?

Why the need to "explore", "celebrate", and "express pride" over such behaviors? Acceptance? Acceptance amongst the herd just makes you another moo-cow! Or is it just to hear ye olde flap-trap run?

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I have a genuine question for feminists
Posted by: bizeeb on Dec 29, 2008 8:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a question for anyone out there who feels they can answer, and I am not in the least bit trying to insult or make fun or pick a fight with any feminists. I ask because it's a point/topic that confuses me and I honestly want to make sense of this: Is everything empowering?

It kinda seems that (some) feminists will claim that porn stars (some) and strippers (again, some) are "owning their sexuality." Or celebrities like Lil' Kim or Christina Aguilara are empowering themselves by doing exactly what THEY want to do, not what some man wants them to do. I guess what I'm saying is, some times it's hard to tell who's empowering themselves and who's being exploited.

It's a similar conundrum for me regarding "housewives" (or whatever one calls it): some are made to feel like they're are weak and accepting a patriarchal role that they should shed, but some feminists insist it's just about choice, i.e. if a woman WANTS to stay home and take care of the kids, etc. she should have the choice. Again, how can a person gauge who's being exploited, and perhaps needs a helping hand getting out of a certain situation, and someone who is genuinely in control of their life?

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» I agree Posted by: Q30
» what is a recovering feminist? Posted by: WizardofOhm
I have a genuine question for feminists
Posted by: bizeeb on Dec 29, 2008 8:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a question for anyone out there who feels they can answer, and I am not in the least bit trying to insult or make fun or pick a fight with any feminists. I ask because it's a point/topic that confuses me and I honestly want to make sense of this: Is everything empowering?

It kinda seems that (some) feminists will claim that porn stars (some) and strippers (again, some) are "owning their sexuality." Or celebrities like Lil' Kim or Christina Aguilara are empowering themselves by doing exactly what THEY want to do, not what some man wants them to do. I guess what I'm saying is, some times it's hard to tell who's empowering themselves and who's being exploited.

It's a similar conundrum for me regarding "housewives" (or whatever one calls it): some are made to feel like they're are weak and accepting a patriarchal role that they should shed, but some feminists insist it's just about choice, i.e. if a woman WANTS to stay home and take care of the kids, etc. she should have the choice. Again, how can a person gauge who's being exploited, and perhaps needs a helping hand getting out of a certain situation, and someone who is genuinely in control of their life?

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» OOPS! Posted by: bizeeb
» WTF?! Posted by: bizeeb
» It's a fine question.. Posted by: Q30
» RE: It's a fine question.. Posted by: GuitarBill
» Feminism used to be a movement Posted by: daniel347x
Hardwired
Posted by: PaulK on Dec 29, 2008 8:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Men and Women are hardwired. It goes against our social ideals at times, but we are what we are.

Patty Hearst was kidnapped, raped repeatedly, suffered Stockholm Syndrome, and eventually was entrusted by her gang to hold a gun during a bank robbery. Women in general can sometimes switch sides either after having being raped repeatedly or after having consensual sex. It's not a social value that anyone is proud of, it's just homo sapiens hardwiring.

Even our marriage tradition of having a best man has roots in the best man being a trustworthy and stout accomplice in kidnapping the bride.

Now we have a semi-rational society. Hopefully no more kidnappings. However, sexual shame always triggers the release of sexual endorphins in women. So does make-believe sexual shame.

P.S. men have their own hardwires. We don't really know why we're in love with the McDonald's logo. More important, men can love, but also men can get all excited about rape (or pretend rape as seen in magazines). Male rapists come from all social strata. Nothing personal, we're just kind of crazy at the edges.

So that's the feminist quandary, to seek enjoyment in private and to seek social equality in public.

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» RE: Hardwired Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Hardwired Posted by: AMerrickanGirl
» RE: Hardwired Posted by: talkville
A little evidence please?
Posted by: dbarber on Dec 29, 2008 8:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the average young, male, heterosexual porn audience member begins to believe that forcing women into sex acts is the norm -- the imagery's constant, instant availability makes rape and sex one and the same for the mainstream viewer.>>>

Add to that a disgraceful lack of sexual education (both in safety and in pleasure) across the country and a general belief perpetuated by the media that women are sex objects to be consumed, and you have a rape culture that started by borrowing from BDSM's images without reading its rules.>>>

I'm sorry, but without any evidence to back up these assertions I'm just going to have to lump them in with "Homosexuality starts with a rebellion against God" or "The free market only ever results in actions that are as natural as breathing." Obviously they're statements that reflect and appear to support the ideological viewpoint of the person that made them. Which merely means I have no intention of taking them at face value.

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» No Way! Posted by: EinMD
I'm Personally Not Into BDSM, But...
Posted by: Libertine on Dec 29, 2008 9:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...whatever floats your boat. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Whatever consenting adults want to do sexually is their own business and I'm in no place to judge them.

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» /agreed Posted by: EinMD
Deviant Ideologists
Posted by: doodahman on Dec 29, 2008 10:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But when you throw a little rape, bondage or humiliation fantasy into the mix, a whole set of ideological problems arises.

Yeah, uh huh. There's the problem right there. You're tied up, butt in the air awaiting the crack of leather, and your mind wanders to feminist ideology.

How about just having some good, consensual, kinky fun and saving the ideological crapola for the coffee house? It's nobody's business to know anyways. That way, when you're screaming about your right to kill your fetuses, no one will be able to counter that you aren't qualified to protest due to your desire for a good smack in the bootie by, GASP! a man!

That's the whole point of making such behavior private. And truth be told, really, none of us really cares at all what you do for laughs in private or whether it jives with you or someone elses' politics. Really. Take my word for it.

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You go girl...
Posted by: TJColatrella on Dec 29, 2008 10:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"They suffer least, who suffer what they choose..!"

You go girl...

Thanks for such a gutsy honest article...


TJ...

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» RE: You go girl... Posted by: editnetwork
» RE: You go girl... Posted by: TJColatrella
If all participating like it, why not do it?
Posted by: ZPaul on Dec 29, 2008 11:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As long as it doesn't get you in trouble with the law, if you enjoy doing it, why not?

Nobody who who likes BDSM has to justify it to me. You only live once, enjoy.

Why should I "worry about people who enjoy things like this"? It's a personal choice. Another thing is to impose it on others, against their will. That's where I draw the line.

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» Because... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Not where I thought this article was going
Posted by: hcb1975 on Dec 29, 2008 12:51 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow. This article took a turn to academic jargon that I didn't see coming. It also missed one salient point - that there is a division between fantasy and reality. Fantasy resides in the world of video and internet porn where actors are being paid to create a scene. And whether that scene contains BDSM makes no difference - it isn't real. It is being directed, manipulated, filmed, etc. It's akin to viewing TV violence in a simulated environment. When Bugs Bunny harms Elmer Fudd I'm not confused when he shows up in the next scene unscathed. Viewers get off on things that they will never do with people who look nothing like the people they actually have sex with. Feminists or not, we shouldn't be conflicted about what gets us off.

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The author helped spread misconceptions about internet porn
Posted by: logansafi on Dec 29, 2008 3:05 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author tries to be enlightened and all, but she plain just misses the boat about what's really seen in the internet porn out there.

She states that (bdsm) is... 'No longer reserved for an informed, invested viewer who carefully sought it out after a trip to a fetish bookstore, BDSM is represented in every porn portal on the Internet. The average computer user can have instant access to a full catalog of BDSM practices, ranging from light, soft-core spanking to hard-core torture, in a matter of seconds.'

That is just plain BS though. Real 'hard core torture' now is never considered legally consensual, and is simply illegal and not allowed for ever appearing on the internet at all. In fact, even most CONSENSUAL bdsm is outlawed on the internet, in films, and in hard copy pictures, and not just non-consensual violence.

Because of that, much porn looks like it was made up by some sort of wierd prudish committee consisting of the police, Church, and a few ugly Mafia types with a group of whores thrown in, and simply is not erotic at all whether it contains bdsm or not. It actually almost seems that most porn is the result of some sort of conspiracy to turn people off from it!

Fact is that internet pornography is heavily regulated by world policing agents and the author acts as if she is totally unaware of that, amazingly enough considering where she is coming from. You cannot just pummel some woman (or man for that matter) up and then put it online for the viewers' supposed viewing pleasure. It is that simple. Battering is simply not allowed. In fact, you cannot do many things in porn that appear non consensual, even if they are in fact totally consensual.

The world is especially worried about male on female violence, and because of that, many porn makers make 'lesbian' bdsm instead of hetero male on female bdsm scenes. That seems to be better accepted as not being real violence by policing agencies, which will see criminal violence if the dominating person on the film is male.

Fact is, that 'hard core torture' is not seen on the internet, with only possibly a few older shots grandfathered in by the policing and legal authorities. (They got shot and were allowed in the past so they are allowed to continue online since it was allowed to happen previously) But for the current material, 'hard core torture' is not allowed and is every bit as illegal as porn with children is. I'm not sure what the author was thinking when she stated otherwise?

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» I agree Posted by: bizeeb
I'm all for consenting adults doing whatever, but rape fantasies aren't feminist
Posted by: ladyoracle on Dec 29, 2008 5:08 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...it's pretty evident that the feminist movement at large is not really ready to admit that women who like to be hit, choked, tied up and humiliated are empowered."

Ya think?!

I'm a feminist who believes in women's choices. If you and a partner choose to do anything whatsover in the bedroom and both parties consent, then that is fine with me. Any other response wouldn't be sex-positive.

But don't call what you're doing feminist, and don't yammer on about how it should be incorporated into a feminist view of healthy sexuality. You've clearly never been raped. You are so lucky. Maybe it will happen to you and you will realize how terrible the reality is and your fantasy will be come as offensive to you as it is to me, a date rape victim. I absolutely recognize a line between "fantasy" in a controlled environment, versus the real thing, but if that's your fantasy, then here's what I think about it. It's a product of some deeply rooted patriarchal notion that you should be punished for your power. Since you're apparently a voice in the feminist mainstream, you need to balance that with some nasty bedroom subordination. And fine, if that's what it takes to keep you in balance. But just don't call it feminist and expect everyone else to get on board and support it. That is what I take issue with.

And you know another thing? Look at the rates of sexual violence and abuse against women. Don't you think feminism should concentrate on stopping real violence instead of sanctioning women's rape fantasies? Really. There's room in the feminsit argument for your choice, but to sanction your choice takes something away from the millions of women who experience it in reality who didn't chose it. I choose to champion the real victims who don't want it over some borgeois self-destructive sexuality.

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» sex-positive Posted by: bizeeb
» completely agree. Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: completely agree. Posted by: Lilykins
feminism is not moralizing...
Posted by: doraroja on Dec 29, 2008 5:41 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a really interesting response to a feminist 'morality', or punishment and shaming of women's practices within bdsm.

The problem of 'shame' however is only partially related to the mainstream's appropriation of bdsm. The other side of the issue is the mainstream's appropriation of feminism. Television and other mass media suggest that feminist practice involves women's (and sometimes men's) policing of women's behavior. The mainstream feminism of mass media tells women who and how to be. It does not open up the field. It does not start a dialogue. It does not ask us, women (or anyone) to think for ourselves; it does not pose real questions (only false ones: ie, you can be a virgin or a slut; a professional or a loser; you can wear your hair one way or the other...)

Unlike truly thoughtful debates undertaken by feminist artists and writers not supported by media empires (discussions that ask for instance what kind of world we would have if we explored and re-envisioned power in a self critical way), mainstream feminism undercuts and destroys the autonomy and self-determination of women.

I'm really glad that this article begins the task of looking at the violence of morality and judgment. These difficult questions are at the foundations of a society built on the many forms of social violence created by norms.

That said, those of us who do not wish to feel ashamed sometimes are but could be much more fully (and in more different ways) working to liberate knowledge and signs, experimentation and practice, from corporate power and its mass media.

Feminism is 1000 things or more. Sometimes it is about men as much as women. Sometimes it speaks of power. The forces that have made a shaming morality speak for all feminism are not feminist!

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Feminism is about liberating women from male oppression
Posted by: delphyne_ on Dec 30, 2008 1:29 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... not about every girl's right to be tied up and beaten by her boyfriend. I wish people would stop confusing feminism and BDSM because they aren't the same however hard BDSMers try to pretend they are.

And as usual we have a BDSM article which ignores the main problem with BDSM, which is not that some women have masochistic fantasies, but that there are a whole lot of men out there who get sexually excited and achieve orgasms through hitting, choking, tying up and humiliating women. As always their behaviour is hidden behind women's "choices". We live in a rape culture where the fear of rape and sexual assault remain at the back of every woman's mind and sadly many women will have experienced either or both of those crimes at the hands of men, yet what do BDSMers argue? - that sadistic men should be able to practice their rape techniques on the women closest to them. Really it's not a good idea and it most certainly isn't a feminist one.

Feel free to continue with your kinky fantasies, but when you start arguing for men to be able to hurt women, consensually or not, this feminist is going to stand against you.

Also, your complaint that the mainstream is "appropriating" BDSM - very offensive. Look to yourself first appropriating the devastating experiences of rape and violation that so many women (and men) have experienced and turning them into a way for you to get your cheap thrills. Find another way to enjoy yourself, that doesn't involve eroticising the experiences of rape and abuse victims.

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So where does this put me???
Posted by: Kym525 on Dec 30, 2008 1:30 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a former Fem-Dom and still lifelong feminist, I simply can't tow the line with my feminist sisters who don't seem to get the idea of BDSM as safe, sane and consensual. I was in the scene for several years and many clubs/dungeons/play spaces take the use of "safewords" very seriously. I've seen tops thrown out and/or banned from specific places for not adhering to the rules.

I agree with Valenti that real-life BDSM turns all the standard power/gender tropes on its ear. A submissive--female or male--is really the one in control. A good top may wield to tools, but their ultimate goal is to see to the pleasure of the sub. There was no greater pleasure for me as a Dominant, than to bring my sub into what's known as "sub-space".

Then again, most people--feminist or otherwise--have never been to an actual working dungeon or play party. The only frame of reference they have is from "bad internet porn" and late-night talk shows. I've always found it amusing when vanilla people (especially men) stroll into a dungeon expecting big-breasted porn stars in leather, only to find that many practitioners look like people they work with or who are their neighbors. It's also funny to watch their faces when I was in the middle of a scene with a collared male sub who looked like they could easily break your arm. Talk about turning green. Add to the fact that I am a black woman, things get really interesting. In short, everything that one thinks they know about gender gets turned upside-down, and that's extremely refreshing in a world where those roles are so circumscribed but have outlived their usefulness.

Feminism at its core is about equality and choice. Also, feminism is about shedding all the baggage that patriarchy brings with it. In terms of sexuality, feminists need to be a lot more open and accepting of women's REAL choices when it comes to our bodies--not exploitation. That means educating ourselves better about non-vanilla sexual expression, as well as rejecting the patriarchal view of sexuality, which we all know does more harm than good.

Bottom line: no woman submissive is saying that they really want to be raped or beaten. What they ARE saying in the context of safe and consensual play is that they want to be free to indulge their fantasies, and I don't think it's right or fair to deny them this.

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Cool book, mix with a little Michael Bader and POOF the lights go on!
Posted by: DaBear on Dec 30, 2008 2:23 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for the excerpt. Went right out and devoured the book to boot. Great stuff.

Especially when combined with Bader's thesis about the necessity of selfishness or ruthlessness as a vital component in healthy sexual pleasure (and how when we disrupt that we get sick), there's a much broader an rich discourse opened by authentic BDSM culture in the process.

The core feminist concept; listening to the "disempowered Other" is a critical factor in being able to read the excerpt and comprehend what the author is saying and what that means inside our own selves. It is as annoyingly reassuring to read the "feminist" commenters who seem to have neglected or dismissed that critical aspect of feminist ideology as it is to read the crass moral supremacists who just can't handle non-vanilla sex, let alone kinks. Both reactionaries evince that we have a long way to go as a group.

For me this piece made the lights go on. It was a breath of fresh air and I've often wondered about female subs and feminism and BDSM. As an artist it reaffirms my conviction that a life worth living often requires the existence of sub-cultures and those willing to explore places the "mainstream" insists belong in shadow.

The book is another notch in Valenti's belt... that chick is damned smart! (so's her co-editor)

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An addendum to my above comments
Posted by: Kym525 on Dec 30, 2008 2:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My take on BDSM and the roles of women in it are not in any way to ignore the larger issue of violence against women. But sadly, this is a problem that existed long before there was any such notion as BDSM. Even if we were to outlaw this form of sexual expression(as they've tried to do with anti-sodomy laws), it would still continue, and probably in a far worse form because there would be no standards or no "governing body" (and there are several). We're dealing with thousands of years of ingrained behavior--much of it fueled and reinforced by religion--that has made violence against women not only acceptable, but in many cases, her fault. Even some of the most liberal and atheistic of males have internalized many destructive notions of gender and few actually realize where it comes from. The solution, then, is to make such outdated notions of sexuality and gender unacceptable. The solution is to prosecute and expose rape/abuse as a crime.

BDSM in its best form is about willing power exchange. This is not to present the world of BDSM through rose-tinted glasses because it definitely has its own share of problems, but when this lovestyle is actually done RIGHT, between two people who have trust and respect, it can be a liberating and healthy experience for both parties. A female sub ultimately has control--over the level of pain, or the scene they are in, and they can end anything that is uncomfortable to them through the use of a "safword". This is in stark contrast to a real-life act of rape, where all control is taken away from the woman and where there's no pleasure for the woman.

The questions then are: when are we as women allowed this freedom that men seem to enjoy by birthright without society at large somehow thinking this behavior gives tacit approval to real life violence; and when are we as women allowed the freedom of our fantasies and the right to act upon them without censure or fear of being told we're "holding back" feminism? Sexuality is one of those final frontiers where the battle between public and private gets mired.

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» First of all ladies, Posted by: WizardofOhm
Another feminist submissive
Posted by: lilith ~sub~ on Dec 30, 2008 5:10 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was born a submissive, trained a slave, hold a Master's of Women Studies and a feminist and practice a lifestyle of a Leather girl. I agree wholeheartedly with the author. I also write/lecture within the community about abuse within the lifestyle and in the general population. I have been approached numerous times by young women who are trying to come to some grips with their feelings of both feminism and submission since society states we can't be both. It is a breath of fresh air to read such a wonderfully written article bringing voice to those of us who are both feminist and submissives by choice.

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Does porn really cause all of society's sexual evils?...
Posted by: Ickaprick on Dec 31, 2008 8:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can read my full response to Stacey May Fowle's essay at Ickaprick: BDSM & porn. Here's an excerpt:

Do we really believe porn has that much power over us? Or is it just an easy target? These kinds of facile arguments distract us from the actual problem: plain, old rampant misogyny. Which is, of course, everywhere - including on the internet, but certainly not exclusive to it. Unclever, poorly produced rape porn with little thought behind it is not the wellspring of all society's woman-hating and power-over culture. It's just another manifestation of it, no?

And hell, who doesn't like a little trashy, brainless porn once in a while? I watch all kinds of offensive shit I have no intention of ever re-creating in my bedroom. The suggestion that we go all monkey-see, monkey-do the moment we turn on XTube means I long ago would have attached a thick dildo to the column in my washing machine, sat on it and put the cycle on spin. I similarly like watching violent sex tapes and those goofy twin twinks incest scenes. When I hear people poo-poo anything but high-brow, woman-directed, consent-given-on-camera kinds of porn, I question the underlying assumption of how we think social change is achieved. Temperance didn't stop folks from drinking and the solution to childhood obesity isn't a ban on everything sweet besides fancy, expensive cakes.

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Why I really hate articles like this
Posted by: Kym525 on Dec 31, 2008 9:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing against the author, whom I admire as a brave woman speaking truth to HER power. Unfortunately, instead of a rational discussion of BDSM, submission and what it means to those who participate--especially those women who do consider themselves feminists--it quickly spirals out of control into the "who's more feminist than thou" olympics between women, and the standard "I dig chicks with gags" line from the men. There is very little thoughtful criticism from their side of the peanut gallery and frankly does nothing to further healthy gender relations.

Have we liberals caught the sex-phobic bug from conservatives to the point where we challenge consensual non-traditional practices between adults? Are we as women so afraid of our femininity that we're willing to be prisoners of that fear? Then why bother to be stand up for equality at all, if you're so scared? Just because a woman enjoys being tied up and dabbling in fear play, doesn't mean she condones REAL LIFE RAPE! I'm am so fucking sick of saying this!

The sad fact is that long before there was anything even remotely resembling BDSM, men were raping women and abusing children. They used it and continue to use as a weapon of control and of terror. In countries where a women's behaviour is so circumscribed that they wear clothing that makes them resemble two-legged bowling pins with eyes, rape still happens. Instead of figuratively tarring and feathering the author, we should be demanding that the U.N. designate rape as a war crime (if they haven't already done it). We should make sure that our new president signs off on that mandate, and we should be giving more funds to groups like Amnesty International to ensure that they keep watch on countries that use rape in this manner and sanction the hell out of them.

In our own country, we should be dealing with rape as a violent crime, rather than one of sex. So what if the perp used his penis rather than a gun, the violation is still the same. We as women need to learn to be more assertive and stop acting as if doing so "makes us like men". We need to teach healthy and responsible sexuality to our kids, hopefully combatting the patriarchy's stranglehold on our collective unease and fear of sex. I would love for 2009 to signal the death-knell of the good girl/whore and pimp/nerd thing between men and women.

And as far as men are concerned--I don't give a damn whether she's butt-naked...she's says NO, zip it up and LEAVE! Your gender doesn't make you god and it's high time that you started letting the head on your shoulders rule the one in your pants. Learning about a woman's erogenous zones from a Vivid video isn't sex-ed and not every female is going to want you, so learn to deal with that like a MAN and not a spoiled rotten little boy who didn't get his way.

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» Time for a game... Posted by: Q30
» RE: Time for a game... Posted by: goeswithness
» RE: Time for a game... Posted by: Q30
Please keep your BDSM in your own living room, not mine .... just more attention craving
Posted by: Bambi on Jan 2, 2009 7:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After 18 years of BDSM folks who I've experienced as friends and family, I'v edited them out of my life? Why? Because they could not stop talking about their BDSM experiences. Year after year of constant, obsessive conversations about their private lives, often at the most inappropriate times, has worn me down.

I used to think that BDSM, or any other personal sexual choice, might be a psychological healing tool that certain individuals used on their personal life path. No more. Each and every time I've asked folks to simply refrain from the blow by blow descriptions of their BDSM sex life because 1. I didn't care and 2. I didn't care ... I'd endure a diatribe of what a messed human I am. After 18 years, I'm really over it.

What I realize now is that BDSM behavior is akin to that Mormon or Jehovah's Witness who knocks at your door and wants nothing more than to break you down so you'll succomb to a three way with Jesus or a cash donation for their temple. BDSM appears to be more about putting on a show for others, and an annoying tool to control folks in the environment at large, than it is for personal healing or sexual preference alone.

From ruined dinner conversations, to upset kids and grandkids, to just plain being board to tears hearing about dungeon rooms and butt plugs .... my family and I just don't want to have these conversations squished in our faces anymore.

It's especially interesting that so many so-called submissives are so aggressive with others when it comes to spreading the gospel of BDSM. Please, do what you need to do in the privacy of your own home and leave me out of it.

I sincerely hope that any of the friends and family out there will take a chill pill, be a bit more discreet and stop scaring the horses for chrisstsakes.

I don't care if you shove lightbulbs up your ass; please don't bleed on me.

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So few people are actually listening
Posted by: goeswithness on Jan 3, 2009 6:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This kind of thing doesn't appeal to me at all. I have no interest in dominating or being dominated, and I just couldn't function that way. It would make me feel bad. But it has long interested me to know what it is about this kind of thing that does interest people. It's very hard for me to see BDSM as a healthy thing. However, I realize that it doesn't seem healthy because for me, it wouldn't be. I enjoy reading articles like this because it does further enlighten me and gets me over using myself as a gauge for everything. I think it's sad that we seem to be unable to take advantage of these chances to view things from somebody else's experiences. We fault each other for not working within our own world view, but why should we expect them to?

Just because TO YOU (and to me) this would mean this or that, doesn't mean that's what it means to those involved.

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Switch, "empowered", and not a feminist
Posted by: nunsuch on Jan 3, 2009 6:35 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for writing an interesting insight into a personal struggle between your feminist beliefs & private submissiveness. (Too bad you had to come down on the mainstream porn...).

A lot of commenters here do not know much about BDSM. What makes it so great is that it's about *trust*, not just pleasure. It's about voluntary giving of power to someone you trust, in a controlled, safe situation. Remember, feminists, you have to have power first, in order to give it up - maybe this is why we're finally having this dialogue, as women do have more power now, in this society. BDSM plays on the edges of discomfort, and its power is precisely in the conflicts between what we feel is accepted and what is "forbidden".

It's ok to give up the power from time to time - in fact, this could be construed as the ultimate "arriving". You volunteer to give up the power only if you're secure enough in it...

To the commenters who were rape victims - I'm truly sorry this happened to you. I have also been date raped, and believe me, there is a tremendous difference between the fantasy rape and the real one. In fantasy rape, I don't cry. In fantasy rape, I don't want it to stop, right now. In fantasy rape, I can have the power of a safe word that would make everything stop immediately. Being used for someone's sexual gratification *in fantasy* is exciting, relaxing (don't have to figure out what he wants), it makes me feel desired (this loving, nice person wants me so much, he lost all control). Incidentally, I did not see my rape as a man victimizing me because I am a woman. He was simply a selfish, clueless, opportunistic a***ole - a *person* with these flaws, not a *man*.

In a corporal punishment scene, the top who whips me is doing all the work - he has to pay attention to all the clues, make sure I don't feel the wrong kind of pain, cares for me and supports me while I'm helpless and emotionally open. I do the same for my submissive playmate - I have to be the vigilant and the caring one. Making my submissive happy is the primary goal.

I'll not allow anyone to dictate what is appropriate or not for me to want or do, except for my own conscience. This goes for feminists as much as for evangelists. The freedom of an *individual* is what its all about, not belonging to another group that would tell me what I'm supposed to be like.

Some background:
I'm a woman, a switch (both dom and submissive/masochist though I tend to be top), and "not a feminist" for the simple reason that the issue of equality never affected my personal life. Don't get me wrong, I do believe in and work on the issues of equality - but this is about ALL equality; gender, racial, class, orientation, religious (and atheist).

I was raised in a culture that did not emphasize the differences between genders, besides our obvious physical differences. I grew up thinking of myself as a person among many different persons, not as a woman, man or anything in between. I did not expect to be victimized because of the sole fact of my gender. When the boys in the grade school tried to beat me up, I wiped the floor with them, did not run to the principal. Guess I was lucky.

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rape is one thing, but this is another , I guess
Posted by: cherylsass123 on Jan 4, 2009 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
first of all, I'd like to thank jessica valenti of feministing.com; the liberal feminist woman whom co-wrote this book and also has one of her own titled " he's a stud! she's a slut! and 49 other double standards." I especially love to listen to her and samhita's ' friday feminist fuck you's of the week'
but onto this bondage thing and how many feminists are like " yeech" when they hear someone whom claims to be one of them and actually likes BDSM. I myself am a transgender woman and lesbian feminist and personally, I could never get into S&M but long before transition; had a younger online bisexual girlfriend whom loved playing out rape and other fantasies.
I also have a friend whom is just a crossdresser , and though Ze lives as the "other" person most of the time; when in crossdresser mode; seems to love playing out fantasies of being a woman tortured by a big, tough butch lesbian. knowing that I'm living full time as a lesbian transwoman ,my friend one asked me to play along in a game of teacher performs " bladder toruture" on schoolgirl; with props, of course. Ze has talked with me about " rape fantasies" a few times, as in being the little school girl whom gets raped/molested and in fact; has authored a fiction book in which a girl gets abducted along the Blue state hiking trail in "woolrich, CT" back in 1964 [ woodbridge, CT].
called the Woolrich Tale, it was based on what 'her' own life would have been like if 'she' was born female. I have yet to read it, but from what ze told me , it sounds a lot like freddy kruger in some ways. just way better as if this " fantasy" could really happen, something which seemed rare back in the early 1960's here in connecticut when the catholic and episcopal church's " family values" seemed to dominate many communities.
but to get back to the article? seriously as a member of the natl. org. for women- NOW; I still can not understand what many feminists have against both prostitution and BDSM and the women whom enjoy it consentually. if anything, women like ashley dupree`[ NY gov spitzer's gal] and this woman here , I feel; are way more liberated than many of the feminists whom say they are.
though I can very well understand that both violence , and yes, FORCED prostitution[ not to be racist but think " chinatown brothels"] are , NO DOUBT, acts of violence against women!!! this includes many transsexual women whom have to work as prostitutes in order to survive in a world full of prejudiced employers, as well as biological women.
but as far as this woman here, I guess that if she enjoys this with her partner/s; then why should anyone tell her differently. personally my fantasies are more like what most women fantasize about. that all too common and romantic in nature ' when sally met harry'; but with a lesbian twist as in 'Cinderella meets her femmy-butch partner, Lezebelle' and they run off to live happily ever after for a while.

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Loss of Human Connection
Posted by: abemko on Jan 5, 2009 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a sad article. Sex and love have to do with the most profound and intimate connections between humans. They require each individual to be fully present for themselves and the other. It is sad that traumatized people get so busy defending their fantasies rather than healing and reclaiming their full humanity. Humiliation and pain are the antitheses, not only of love and sensuality, but of any human/humane activity. It is time to call a trauma related aberrant addiction for what it is. This is not to condemn the people caught up in this cry of pain, bound by shame and guilt, but to acknowledge that, just like in the case of alcoholism or any other numbing addiction, these people have lost their connection with themselves and with others, and need to reclaim their humanity and power.

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How provocative.
Posted by: mikehattan on Jan 5, 2009 4:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But its not AMERICAN! Ha ha ha....When are we going to finally put Puritanism where it belongs? In the past.

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"Empowered"?
Posted by: sgsilver on Jan 5, 2009 4:29 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow. Yeah. Certainly a provocative article.

The author certainly knows how to write, I will give her that. Her piece, however, is so full of logical inconsistencies and fallacies that I really don't know where to begin.

This line popped out at me, though:

"At the end of almost every authentic BDSM photo set, you'll see a single appended photo of the participants, smiling and happy, assuring us that what we've seen is theater acted out by consenting adults, proving that fetish porn often exists as a careful, aware construct that constantly references itself as such."

So merely smiling on camera is the basis for determining consent. Fascinating.

It just makes me terribly sad that there are women who take pleasure in being raped and men who take pleasure in doing it -- whether it is "consensual" (which I suppose in her view means that everyone is smiling) or not.

I wonder if as a Jew I like to be shoved into ovens or gas chambers by people dressed in Nazi uniforms -- and then pose smiling for pictures afterward -- would that make me "empowered" as a Jew?

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» RE: "Empowered"? Posted by: rayne
if you haven't been (or wanted to be) in one of these relationships, you can't possibly understand..
Posted by: rayne on Jan 27, 2009 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i can say that because i HAVE been in one, and it was wonderful. there was possibly more trust and love in that relationship than in any other before it, by sheer necessity. you simply can't submit willingly to someone if you don't trust them.
i have fantasized about BDSM pretty much since i was a preteen, tho i didn't know it was called that- or called anything. i always thought there was something weird about me, since i've always been a staunch feminist, was raised by feminist parents, was never sexually abused or molested. but very early on, i desired to be spanked, handled roughly, even humiliated. it took me many years to seek out a partner who would willingly take on the role of my dom, and he did so brilliantly. i had previously been able to incorporate some elements of bdsm into my relationships, but this was the first time that it was full-blown and we both enjoyed it very, very much. i will always have a soft spot (and a red welt ;) ) for him, and i think he will for me as well.

as i said, if this sort of thing doesn't appeal to you, then that's fine and there need be no further discussion. just know that two consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want with- and to- each other within the privacy of their own sexual encounters.

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