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Obama Can Pump Trillions into the Economy, But No One Knows If It Will Work

By Nicholas von Hoffman, The Nation. Posted January 10, 2009.


The nation's hopes -- even the world's -- are riding on it, but Barack Obama's stimulus plan is no sure shot.
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The nation's hopes--even the world's--are riding on it, but Barack Obama's stimulus plan is no sure shot. Nobody can say if it will work.

Some questions to ponder: What has to happen for us to say that the stimulus worked? Would it be a success if half the people who have lost their jobs secure some kind of employment? Would the benchmark be that one-quarter or one-third or half of the trillions in lost retirement savings were rescued? Would keeping in place two-thirds of those in danger of losing their homes be enough for us to say the stimulus has worked? Or should the standard be the Dow Jones Industrial Average clawing its way back to 10,000?

Except in the vaguest terms, no criterion has been laid down for what the stimulus is supposed to accomplish. Perhaps none can be.

Economists who a couple of years ago disagreed about almost everything have come together to buy into the central part of the Obama stimulus approach that is putting lots of government money into anybody's hands who will spend it and get business rolling again. Overnight, after decades of being ignored and discarded, the ideas of John Maynard Keynes and Alvin Hansen, the two major economists of the 1930s New Deal era, make sense again.

In the seventy years since the Depression loosened its grip on America, economists and historians have argued over whether or not Keynes-Hansen deficit spending, or pump-priming, as it was called, succeeded. The jury is still out on that one, but the Keynes-Hansen approach has been dusted off and even the stiffest opponents of deficit spending have abandoned the closely held principles of their professional lifetimes.

One such former opponent is Harvard's Martin Feldstein, chair of the Council of Economic Advisors in the Reagan administration and someone whose career has been spent in antipodean opposition to anything that smacked of Keynesianism. Things are so bad, in Feldstein's opinion, that he has put himself on record as saying there is no choice but to grab the buckets and pour water into the pump until America's distressed economy starts to chug again.

The pump, however, may be seized up. We do not know if, when money is put into millions of people's hands, they will spend it. After all, the middle-class segment of the baby boomer generation has just seen its retirement savings all but wiped out. These people, with retirement coming up fast, may be of a mind to save every cent they can get their hands on.

In the 1930s, when a reluctant Franklin Roosevelt decided to try Keynes-Hansen deficit spending, the overall situation was different from the one we are trying to live through. The leaning towers of debt built up during the crazy 1920s had collapsed by 1934. Thousands of banks had gone under, taking the savings of countless people with them. Bankruptcy had carried away debt-ridden, weak companies and individuals. Farmers were thrown off their land when they could not make their mortgage payments; city and suburban families lost their homes.

The deficit spending of the 1930s began in a society that was, thanks to massive bankruptcies, an economic tabula rasa. It had been reduced to near ruins, but in the process debt was swept away. In 2009, quite the contrary is the case.

Our current financial system is waterlogged with debt. Countless numbers of nonfinancial companies have the lead weight of indebtedness dragging them down, and personal debt is doing the same to the millions of individuals stuck with mortgages now worth more than their homes. No tabula rasa here, no debt-free new beginnings--and that raises a question: will the Obama plan be a stimulus to higher levels of economic activity or a life-support system maintaining an economically comatose patient?

We could go another way. We could sweep the table clean of debt by allowing massive bankruptcy to proceed for companies and individuals, a national liquidation. This was the plan advocated by Andrew Mellon, Herbert Hoover's treasury secretary.

Something like that had worked in the recession of 1920. The pain was sharp but short. In a few months the recession was over, and the nation was off into the Jazz Age. In 1933 the pain was sharp but hardly short. Government action not unlike what the Bush administration has been doing may have stopped the process from completing itself.

Stepping back and allowing bankruptcies to roll could not be contemplated without creating a huge program to keep the millions who would lose their jobs in their homes, fed and clothed. The politics of the Mellon approach are too horrendous to bear thinking about, so economists of every stripe, starting as far right as Feldstein and as far as left Paul Krugman, have no choice but to fall back on Keynes-Hansen.

Now let's see if it works.


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Nicholas von Hoffman is the author of A Devil's Dictionary of Business, now in paperback. He is a Pulitzer Prize-losing author of thirteen books, including Citizen Cohn.

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It's Not Either/ Or Mr. Hoffman ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Jan 10, 2009 12:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nicholas von Hoffman does a good job summarizing the extreme cases of rescue that might be attempted or not. His portrayal of of the stimulus "will the Obama plan be a stimulus to higher levels of economic activity or a life-support system maintaining an economically comatose patient?" hits the bullseye.

However there are other alternatives, some even written about by William Greider that I believe would prove to provide and alternative to the polar cases Mr. von Hoffman offers. Time for a Bank Holiday

They are of course the Bank Holiday, as Mr. Greider exquisitely explained. And then there is the Public Central Bank, something that Canada saw fit to do in 1936.

The bank holiday cleans up the banks' balance sheets while the Public Central Bank provides capital, at cost to the surviving banks and for profit to the US Treasury.

Obama's Stimulus Plan will not work in my opinion, because it is too small ( Concurrence by Krugman and Stiglitz) and it is not directed properly.

What we need is Medicare for All and a shorter work week. Medicare for All would re-capitalize state and local governments, who are now going bankrupt, re-capitalize business that could then be asked to reduce work week hours to keep more employees or indeed hire more people and the under and uninsured, who are mostly the unemployed and the working poor whose jobs don't include medical insurance and their wages preclude it.

Mr. von Hoffman's either /or is fine as far as it goes but there much more to consider in the way of answers. Unfortunately he may be all too correct that these will be the choices that the politics give us but the discussion of the "Stimulus" , how big it will be and what shape it will take, is far from over.

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» RE: It's Not Either/ Or Mr. Hoffman ... Posted by: Jefferson's Guardian
» RE: Jobs Jobs Jobs Posted by: Purple Girl
» I got dibs on the cement mixer Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: Jobs Jobs Jobs Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: It's Not Either/ Or Mr. Hoffman ... Posted by: polreport@live.com
» RE: It's Not Either/ Or Mr. Hoffman ... Posted by: Jefferson's Guardian
» NOT REALLY Posted by: lonl
» RE: It's Not Either/ Or Mr. Hoffman ... Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
What if it does? And....
Posted by: Ricci Levy on Jan 10, 2009 2:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Listening to President-elect Obama yesterday during his conference to announce his nominees for the security arm of our government, I was very impressed with his responses to the reporters who questioned him about his recovery plan and the reception his plan is getting on the hill.

In keeping with his campaign and what he's told us about himself, he was quite clear. He's not wedded to his plan if there's a better one, but, with the information and resources available to him, this is the best plan as he sees it.

One of the reporters quoted an article by someone on the recovery package and Obama shot right back in his welcoming way that he and his advisors will be happy to consider any serious plan or even portion of a plan that someone wants to offer, including one from the author.

One of the easiest things in the world to do is to critique and criticize the work someone else has done. I'm doing it right here in my comments on this article. It's a lot easier to comment on what the author wrote than to sit down and do all of the work that goes into writing the article itself.

This is the long way around to say - it may not work, but what if it does? And if you think it won't, what's your plan for something that will? AND...if you really have a plan, do the leg work to get it to the administration and let them consider it.

Our world depends on us.

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» RE: What if it does? And.... Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: What if it does? And.... Posted by: VZEQICVA
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» RE: Commercial Real Estate Posted by: weathered
» RE: Commercial Real Estate Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: Commercial Real Estate Posted by: weathered
» RACIST JERK Posted by: edgeofnowhere
» RE: ACIST JERK Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: "appointed the same people..." Posted by: douglashoyt
Regarding The Current Economic Crisis
Posted by: mickeymaschke on Jan 10, 2009 3:20 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My response to this article, regarding our current economic dilemma, can be viewed, in total, in my own Journal, on my website, at: My On-Line Journal

I would suggest that anyone who is seriously interested in having a better understanding of the current economic crisis that is unfolding, take a very serious look and give serious consideration and intent, to what I am detailing and my latest journal entry, pursuant to this particular story, and that is linked to this story on my own website, as listed above.

For people to presume that things are not really a serious as they are, is a grave mistake. The reason being, is because the United States will only have one chance to get this right. And that's all we will have. If we fail, you're talking about very serious ramifications, pursuant to, the Kondratieff wave.

And as I said, to understand, in total, what I'm talking about, I would suggest that you read my financial analysis, pursuant to this economic catastrophe that we are facing, in my own Journal, as listed above. The choice of course is yours. And I do not expect any of you to pay very much attention to what I'm saying or to agree with what I'm saying. Because to do so would mean that you have to think in nontypical ways. And after 58 years of living and 45 years of having been a financial analyst in this country, I have learned very clearly that the bulk of humanity does not like to behave in nontypical ways. So the typical response on your part, will in fact be to disregard what I'm saying and to look at what I'm saying with total and complete disrespect and disbelief. I'm prepared for that. But then, it's not my money... it's yours. I'm not the one that's losing money as a result of this catastrophic situation. Because I had known that this was going to happen for the last 40 years. What you do with what I've presented here, is your choice.

In closing, I am a member of the alternate community, because I respect alternate tremendously. I respect the authors and writers who write for alternate very much. However, that being said, when it comes to financial analysis, in 45 years of doing financial analysis, I have never once been wrong in any financial analysis I've ever done. I do not look upon this with pride. It is simply a fact. Again, I hope that you will in fact, give my extrapolation of the current economic situation. A very serious consideration with serious intent. Because in reality, there have been many brave men and women who have died in order to bring the Kondratieff wave to the current level of understanding here in this world.

Thank you very much for your time and consideration pursuant to what I've presented.

Nicole Maschke.

My Journal: My On-Line Journal

The Konratieff Wave: The Kondratieff Wave

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» Response To Mr. Maschke Posted by: Scalpel
» RE: Your Personal Qualification Statement Posted by: frest1@comcast.net
» My bullshit detector just alarmed Posted by: GuitarBill
If not The Gov't than Who??? Your Corp Masters? Your 'Free Market'?????
Posted by: Purple Girl on Jan 10, 2009 3:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There may be debate if the stimulus package will work, but I can guarantee if the do nothing, this ship is going down.
What outrages me th emost is th e'Nay sayers' and psuedo 'fiscal conservatives' who keep bitching but have no other remedies to offer.
IF NOT THE GOV'T THEN WHO???
Certainly not the supposed 'Free Marketeers'. certainly not their Corp cronies, and no doubt not the top 5% will come to the aid of their country. Seems 'Patriotism' starts and ends with them at a Lapel Pin.
Until the Repugs and their lap dog 'Dems' put forth an alternative proposal (real solution) They had better sit down and shut the fuck up. Failure to pass a LARGE stimulus will not only send more down the Bankruptcy rabbit hole, but also ignite a fury of 'Off with their Heads!!'... Making the French Revolution look like a tea party!

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» You are living in the wrong nation babe Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
Wingnut prognosticators
Posted by: Perry Logan on Jan 10, 2009 3:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good rule of thumb: if the Republicans predict the plan will bring disaster, the plan will work.

Republicans think they can predict the future (they're mostly white guys, after all), but they're always wrong.

Reaganomics was going to pay off the deficit. Republican economic gurus told us so. Money was going to trickle down and make life nirvana for us--remember?

Clinton's economic policies were going to ruin the economy. Republicans did not predict that Clinton would turn the deficit into a surplus and create the longest sustained economic expansion in U.S. history. Maybe the batteries in their calculators ran down.

The Iraq War was going to pay for itself. Social Security should be privatized (by the companies we're bailing out now).

More generally, crackpot right-wing economic policies have been gutting nations all over the world. But this isn't at all what Milton Friedman predicted...

If history is any gauge, the fact that the wingnuts are predicting disaster for Obama's economic stimulus virtually guarantees its complete success.

Wingnutania

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» Wingnut prognosticators... that work Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
When Wealth Is Not Backed By Productivity
Posted by: titusoye on Jan 10, 2009 4:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The point agitating my mind and for which I continue to ponder is "Could it be the financial/economic systems that failed, or the people operating and controlling the systems?" If it was the system that failed how come the operators become so stinkingly rich or have lived so much in lavish abundance, yet the average middle class is overworked and overburdened with mortgage, car and credit card debts? Are the wealths of these financial gurus, including the CEOs, actually backed with productivity? The average American is considered to be very hard working, but he/she hardly understands how the systems work. Neither will he/she ever understand or know how the system works. But the gurus who designed the systems and call them "products" had a vision, to become enriched by capitalizing on the ignorance of the consumers, who had been imprisoned by the spirit of consumerism, and worries of the politicians, who fears losing elections. The trap to get sucked into the system is effectively branded as future financial security. Show me anyone who is not afraid of the future? Because we are all afraid of our future we become easy preys of the raveneously greedy carpet baggers peddling loans and credits of all kinds, who have no money of their own, but yet use peoples and governments' money to befuddle the people and mesmerize the government. When you put your money in their coffers it is called annuity. When you need money to spend so that the economy can grow and become productive again, you have to obtain a credit or a loan. When the banking system has no money to loan to consumers and businesses, the financial gurus will be the ones who will pressure the government for a bailout. Worried that the consumers are not spending money, government are pressured by these financial gurus to obtain foreign loans and distribute the largesses as subsidies and stimuli so that the people can start to spend money again. Like a vicious circle, the money eventually ends up in the tills of the financial gurus who again become wealthy through the acts of the people and the government. The subsidies or stimuli is a loan that a future generation will have to pay at interest, again to the financial gurus. The financial gurus prey on the fears of the people and the worries of the government. Whether the system works as designed or breaks down and fail, the financial gurus who precipitated the conflict will still be the ones who will adjucate it. Borrowing the wisdom of W. Edwards Deming, "Do we have to continue to remodel the prison, or we should get out of it?"

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This may be a re-run of the Carter Administration
Posted by: kahuna_2bears on Jan 10, 2009 4:31 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Step 1 be prepared for a tax increase, and Americans are already paying about 1/2 of their money in taxes when you add up Federal income Taxes, State income taxes, Sales Taxes, Fica (for social security, the taxes on phone bills, liquor, etc.

If they do not get a grip on the spending the liberals and RINOs (Republicans In Name Only) want to do be prepared for your taxes to go MUCH higher than they are now. We have already added around 1.1 trillion to the debt this year. The deficit was about 400 Billion. then they approved the 200 billion economy stimulus, then they approved the 700 billion of spending to save AIG, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae.

Now Obama wants to to send out another stimulus check that will cost another 1/2 trillion dollars to the 1.2 trillion itemized above.

If they are not extremely careful in what they do. I expect to see the unemployed rate sky rocket to almost 20%, and I expect to see inflation get out of control.

I remember almost 20% inflation in the Carter Administration.

I recomment the Congress and Senators take up the old Carpenters motto "Measure twice and cut once.

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Peter Schiff & Ron Paul
Posted by: ron heringhauser on Jan 10, 2009 5:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go to You Tube and visit Peter Schiff who has been predicting for years what was going to happen to our economy. They call him Dr. Doom, but he has been right on while the government and the talking heads on CNBC were saying everything was rosy. We need for government to cut spending (the military-industrial complex) and most of the bloated government programs. Cut taxes and start saving and manufacturing things here. We wont survive as a service economy. Obama's advisors are the same Bush/Clinton Wall St. criminals that have caused the depression we are in. If Obama really wanted to try and fix our economy, he would be wise to listen to Peter Schiff and Ron Paul.

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» Sorry, that's just plain wrong Posted by: thornwolf
MONEY AS DEBT= SLAVERY
Posted by: HANGTRAITORS on Jan 10, 2009 5:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
MONEY IS DEBT FOLKS IN THIS ASS BACKWARDS ORWELLIAN SYSTEM. BORROWING YOUR WAY TO PROSPERITY IS A FRAUD.. INTEREST FREE GOVT. ISSUED MONEY AND A SYSTEM OF SOCIAL CREDIT FOR CITIZENS AND GOVT. MUNICIPALITES IS THE ANSWER THAT WILL END THIS RETARDED ENSLAVEMENT SYSTEM. A SYSTEM LIKE THIS WILL NEVER BE TAUGHT IN ANY SCHOOL OR HEARD ON ANY MEDIA OUTLET AS IT WILL KILL THE MONEY CHANGERS. WATCH THE MONEY AS DEBT CARTOON ON GOOGLE OR THE MONEY MASTERS... GET SMART

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» RE: MONEY AS DEBT= SLAVERY Posted by: polreport@live.com
WALTER BURIEN CAFR1
Posted by: HANGTRAITORS on Jan 10, 2009 5:35 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GOOGLE WALTER BURIEN CAFR1 MOVIE AND SEE HOW THE GOVT. IS HIDING 10'S OF TRILLIONS IN ANNUAL INCOME FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE , THEY AINT BROKE.. THEY WANT YOU BROKE

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» RE: WALTER BURIEN CAFR1 Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
Stimilus
Posted by: jbsacks on Jan 10, 2009 5:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All I know is I could care less about some stupid "tax breaks" How about some CASH? The bottom feeders of Wall street got free handouts as have the RICHEST corporations but all we the sheeple get are stupid tax breaks?

Jess
Privacy Center

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Obama Can Pump Trillions Into Economy
Posted by: miss_grundy on Jan 10, 2009 5:41 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sir, I suggest that you have a conversation with Nobel laureate Paul Krugman. I'm sure that he can set you straight.

Mr. Obama hasn't even begun his administration and already the whiners have started their bleating and moaning and groaning.

Why don't you give his stimulus package a chance to pass and take effect and then we'll see whether it passed muster. (Meaning that small businesses will get the money they need to put people to work! And tax cuts will help Main Street stay alive!)

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So, What if it doesn't Work?
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Jan 10, 2009 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This country does a lot of things without knowing whether they will work. We went into Iraq not knowing whether it would work. We go on burning coal and other fossil fuels not knowing whether (or at least how soon) it will lead to catastrophe. We give big tax breaks to the richest among us, not knowing whether it will really help the economy. We give hundreds of billions of dollars to banks not knowing what the results will be.

At least if we rebuild existing infrastructure, establish a modern health care system and create new green infrastructure we can be pretty sure that good will come of the effort. Maybe these things will also stimulate the economy and help us avoid the worst consequences of economic depression.

But maybe we are not sure the stimulus we hope for will not happen; how can we be sure? At least we can be sure some serious good will come of these projects and you cannot say that about very many of the other things that have been done by government in recent years.

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» RE: So, What if it doesn't Work? Posted by: richholland
WALTER BURIEN CAFR1
Posted by: HANGTRAITORS on Jan 10, 2009 5:35 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GOOGLE WALTER BURIEN CAFR1 MOVIE AND SEE HOW THE GOVT. IS HIDING 10'S OF TRILLIONS IN ANNUAL INCOME FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE , THEY AINT BROKE.. THEY WANT YOU BROKE

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Dennis H. in Austin
Posted by: Dennis Hogan on Jan 10, 2009 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nick "The Doubter" Von Hoffman has column inches to fill. Thus, not knowing whether the plan Obama and his team are putting forward will work or not "The Doubter" takes the safe position and challenges through doubt and skepticisim. This approach sheds no light or support for the resolution of our financial mess. Save your ink Nick and study reality for awhile. Then submit your economic recovery plan. I'd like to see what it looks like.

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Well I Hope something happens fast
Posted by: jcore77 on Jan 10, 2009 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think at this point anything is worth a shot.
A few things though,
we should have bailed ourselves out instead of the financial sector , and if the media would stop using propaganda to scare the shit out of everybody into spending money.
This recession seems well to planned , almost smels like a conspiracy.

Any ways...
I am just here to spread the word for our soldiers. There is a new non profit foundation that was started recently that is geared towards helping our soldiers.
If you are a military soldier that is need of some extra assistance , then come and check out "The David H Brooks Foundation for American Wounded Soldiers"

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IF YOU AREN'T FALLING YOU'RE NOT TRYING
Posted by: Bob Graham Las Vegas on Jan 10, 2009 7:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Back in the fifties when I started surfing a good friend told me, "If you aren't falling, you are not trying hard enough". I took this to heart and my surfing improved beyond my wildest dreams. I remembered those words into dirt bike riding, and the phsychology worked there also. I applied the same idea to schoolling and it worked there. I soon learned that the phillosophy applied to everything in life and repeated the same words to all I employed, and as my employees grasped the concept, there came more errors, but much more success in all business ventures I encountered.

Perhaps folks should lose some of their preconceptions of life and start falling down once in awhile, or at least let others do the trying and we might become what we once were, a fast advancing country in all aspects. Success itself is measured by comparison to failure as dark is compared to light and other than Stephen Hawkings, I have not met anyone close to Einstien in my life and both have made their share of errors. But oh boy the areas of success are sure appreciated.

Because someone fell in the "Great Depression" does not mean every attempt to save the country and it's people is doomed to failure. Many years have passed and times have changed, more people, more businesses and many more opportunity for new businesses/inventions. Taking an attitude of sitting back on a fat arse and thinking it will all fix itself seems a defeatist attitude at the least to me.

What is it worth to you???

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» Geronimo!!!!!!!!!! Posted by: common intelligence
Justice through sharing is the only long term solution...
Posted by: global_commoner on Jan 10, 2009 7:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This may sound too extraordinary to be true, but many millions of people are aware of this already:

In 1988 a teacher named Maitreya predicted this crash (beginning in Japan), along with many other accurate forecasts (like the release of Nelson Mandela after being imprisoned for 29 yrs) that were published in Share International and sent around the world in press releases.

The economic crash is a necessary, but unfortunate, part of a great transformation underway. Millions starve in a world of plenty. This system is broken and must be re-created.

This being the case, an enlightened world teacher is now here to help lead humanity out of this insane society of rampant greed, war, speculation and commercialized madness. We've forgotten what it means to live on this planet, as brothers and sisters in one giant family.

Maitreya is his personal name. He is not a religious leader, or politician or anything authoritarian. His love flows in tremendous potency, as he comes to help us on many levels. He speaks for all men and women, calling for the ending of world hunger and extreme poverty through a more just and sustainable economic framework.

He will soon begin speaking publicly on TV. This will be signaled by a bright star to appear in the sky soon. The whole world will be able to see it, during the day and night.

www.WakeUpMankind.org

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» Question... Posted by: Scalpel
Who owns tomorrow
Posted by: Dixie Dawg on Jan 10, 2009 8:06 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The genius that will be our future are the garden variety folks who press on to the point not only of surviving but thriving.

Mr. Hoffman hasn't noticed that people succeed and have succeeded on our block of geography by figuring out work arounds to political failings, economic abstractions and the bankers pinched face dollar clutching. There is no substitute for the strength of will and tenacity of people who will, inspite of ...this or that.. or because of... this or that... find the way.

The restless, creative human spirit that posses the overwhelming majority of people saw us through the last zillion "crises" and will this one and the next.

Mr. Hoffman, go worry about filling your blank computer screen with your next go round of it's broke, it's broke, it's broke. The rest of us have things to build, businesses to run, educations to complete and lives to live. See ya.

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» Scalpel Posted by: Dixie Dawg
» RE: You are still in TX! Scalpel Posted by: Dixie Dawg
Barbara, Michigan
Posted by: avidAmerican on Jan 10, 2009 8:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The whole point is to TRY to fix the economy. If we all sit on our butts, that won't fix the economy. We are all in this mess together that the Republicans made of our country. We all need to work together, help each other, and come up with ways that we can CONTRIBUTE to help it work. And I'm not talking about us contributing money, we can give time, we can help the poor at the soup kitchens, etc. We cannot afford to just sit back and say that it won't work, we have to help MAKE it work. If not, we ALL go down with the ship. So get busy with helping in some way, and stop the whining, that gets us nowhere.

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RE: WAKE UP AMERICA LETS GET MORE COPS ON THE BEAT
Posted by: Dboy on Jan 15, 2009 9:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bullshit. The LAST thing America needs is more cops. The SEC spent the last 8 years doing NOTHING. It's not that there's weren't enough people working at SEC..they were THERE, they were just not doing their job.

More and bigger government is just about the dumbest idea ever.

dboy

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of course it won't work
Posted by: toddcory on Jan 10, 2009 9:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The whole issue behind this economic meltdown is that we live on a finite planet with finite resources. The pyramid scheme of continual growth, development and consumption is a dead end road. Trying to keep something going that is not sustainable will only dig the hole deeper.

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» Don't let them get you down Posted by: tommy_slothrop
It's a temporary stop gap at best
Posted by: sonofloud on Jan 10, 2009 9:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the system is fundamentally broken and it will never be fixed until corporate america is made to be responsible for it's actions.

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The Case against stimulus
Posted by: robchapman on Jan 10, 2009 9:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The case against the stimulus has not been stated.

If the idea is to return the economy to its previous "state of health," with the economic inequity and environmental pillage that causes, we should all oppose the stimulus.

If the taxpayer, i.e., the citizenry is going to be asked to bear the costs of the stimulus, we should use this opportunity to demand greater social justice, economic equity and evironmental sustainability from the American economy.

All of us working like mad to keep the rich people fed and cared for is what got us into this. The rich don't care about us.

We should return their scorn by demanding peaceful reform.

Robert Chapman
Lansing, NY

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TRILLIONS for CORPORATE CRIME - crumbs for the "masses"
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Jan 10, 2009 9:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's the same old story. Puppet Obama will talk a big show and provide anything and everything for Wall Street felons that brought him to the party.

I could go into the usual detail but why bother? Sadly, most Alterneters are utterly lost - deluded to the extent they actually believe they are "progressive" as their sacred cow Obama.

Hint: President Wilson as the 1st "progressive" democrat was a prideful Ku Klux Klan fanatic and a complete stooge for the Rockefeller-Morgan-Rothschild bloc that he rubberstamped the Ponzi trap "Federal Reserve" Corp (not federal, minus zero reserves) for.

The U.S. is under controlled demolition for the usual suspects.

God help us.

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“Keep your eye on the prize. Hold on.”
Posted by: Sojourner on Jan 10, 2009 10:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama got elected promising change not fixes. Do not try to reinflate the bubble.

Yes, the current 7% unemployment likely to become 10% next year is a problem. But extensions of unemployment insurance pale in comparison of costs with what is being proposed in terms of government give-aways. Does anyone know how much unemployment compensation the $300B already promised for banks would buy?

The GOP (with plenty of help from greedy Demos) has run the US like a gambling casino where the house (the wealthy) have skimmed off such a large share of the profits that it has skewed the rest of the economy. Traders were selling whatever kind of paper promises they could dream up—derivatives, etc.

The housing bubble was inflated by investors with so much money to invest that they did not care about the unrealistic prices. Hard working families could only scramble to keep up. Don’t be surprised that attempts to change our housing situation will hurt. It’s been wacked out.

We need to spread the pain more justly. We need a new definition of “windfall profits” that allows them to be taxed more fairly. Give us a stronger safety net for families to hold us together while we go through the pain of healing. No, we cannot change everything all at once. So choosing priorities is essential. Any signs of success will have a positive effect elsewhere.

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Take a bolder stroke to take the pain away from consumers !
Posted by: JerseyGeoff on Jan 10, 2009 11:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You are absolutely correct that millions of middle class middle aged middle income folks have drastically pullled back the spending throttle.
Since 70 pct of the US economy is consumer driven, and now we find out the rest of the world is also dependent on the US 'super consumer', why not give the US consumer real money in their pocket?
I propose we pass HR 676, the Conyers healthcare for all bill( essentially a scale up of medicare for all). Once the middle class realizes they are not at risk of random bankruptcy due to medical costs, not held hostage to worrying about losing jobs especially in the age 50-65 period when health insurance costs are prohibitive, I predict you will see real confidence return to this battered overstressed economy.

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» Right on JG Posted by: marid
Until the Prohibition of Cannabis Ends...
Posted by: P.E.A.C.E. on Jan 10, 2009 11:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...organic agriculture will be crippled, biofuels development will be stifled, and regional economics cut-off from the world's most useful and nutritious crop.

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» Cannabis Hemp! Posted by: garry minor
» RE: Cannabis Hemp! Posted by: richholland
I Like The Idea Of Bankuptcy For All
Posted by: cherylholmes on Jan 10, 2009 11:41 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everyone starts with a clean slate...but have protections built in so this economic crisis never happens again...tighten up credit qualifications like it used to be...

Unfortunately, Bush took away the benefits of bankruptcy protections for individuals...

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» RE: I Like The Idea Of Bankuptcy For All Posted by: stopthemaddness2
With all due respect . . .
Posted by: cthelyt on Jan 10, 2009 1:57 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe that well-meaning posters don't realize what they are saying when they basically say they favor Obama's plan because something has to be done and no one has a better idea. Just look at the record. Whenever government does "something" for its own sake, without a goal in mind or a firm conviction that its actions will achieve that goal, it takes away resources that could have been devoted to other things.

In the case of the massive borrowing required for Obama's plan, we are talking about trillions of dollars that the government will require just for a highly questionable shot in the dark. No one knows how the various projects will be planned and managed, how carefully they will be auditied to root out fraud, how they will avoid cronyism, and so on. Furthermore, when the government borrows on such a scale, it raises borrowing costs for literally everyone else, from private individuals to small businesses and, yes, to larger corporations too. That means that fewer private-sector initiatives can and will be made, and that more people perforce will be at the mercy of what they hope will be a benevolent government filled with all those kind and friendly government people who just can't do enough for us to make us all happy and comfy. Uh-huh. And what part of the country are you from? What planet?

Since we cannot know, if not for sure then at least with a reasonable amount of certainty, that these government stimulus packages will work as hoped--and since, when there's nothing left but hope, there's nothing left at all--it is better to do nothing and conserve resources, and to let the massive inefficiencies built up over the past 20 years work themselves out rather than allowing the same parties who caused them to serve as government and corporate managers and advisers. In short, it's better to clean house and save those trillions of dollars.

And remember who will be paying that multi-trillion-dollar debt: generations of people yet unborn. Why should they be saddled with the responsibility that people alive now, who at least partly caused the current crisis, are being allowed to evade? Also, there is no guarantee that China, Japan, and Europe will be able to buy US Treasury debt even if they want to; they have their own economic fires to put out. The upshot will mean a devalued dollar, higher interest rates, and ruinous inflation for everyone--except, of course, the lucky recipients of the government's funny money and its dubious plans for its use.

So it's simply not enough to say, well, since no one else has a plan, we might as well commit ourselves to multi-trillion-dollar deficits for years. That's an awful lot of money for questionable returns, and it's not even ours. It belongs to future generations. Those of you who rejoice in the election of the first African American president and celebrate how far this country has come since the time of slavery now unwittingly embrace the enslavement of your unborn descendants, who may never be able to pay it off and enjoy even the quality of life that you have in our economic decline.

So be very careful what you ask for, and what you say you support. Sometimes nothing is indeed better than something, and this may be one of those times.

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ReformerRay
Posted by: ReformerRay on Jan 10, 2009 2:08 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author does a good service, by focusing attention on the level of debt in the country.

The first order of business should be to reduce the level of debt. After that is done, a stimilus will have a chance.

There is more than one way to reduce debt. Bamnkruptcy is fair in one sense, in that those that have the most debts relative to assets go under.

We need a combination. AIG should certainly be allowed to go bankrupt. And others should follow.

Bankruptcy should be combined with debt forgiveness. No all debts should be elgible for forgiveness. Begin with a sample of those most elgible and then see where we are. For example, the contracts to pay insurance for non-payment of mortgages should be elgible. Probably the size of these contracts should be reduced to 40 cents on the dollar. Next, consider all the contracts that were removed from reglatory review by the Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000. Probably all of them should be reduced also to 40 cents on the dollar.

The combination of specific debt reduction, based on the argument that the contracts should never have been written, plus the permission for some of the worst offenders to go bankrupt, would be positive steps toward recovery.

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» RE: eformerRay Posted by: VZEQICVA
Will not work, but must be attempted
Posted by: dayahka on Jan 10, 2009 4:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama has no realistic option but to try to keep things from getting worse, because otherwise he'd be thrown out of office, but his fire-brigade economic stimulus will probably not work.

What we need at this point is not a jobs stimulus (actually all it is is a finger in the dike), but an industry stimulus. We need goals and objectives that define the kinds of industries we need; we don't need government-created jobs, we need aspirations. We don't need jobs in construction, car making, fast food, entertainment, leisure activities, war-waging, financial services and a host of other areas. We need objectives, like energy democracy, energy distribution democracy, sustainable transportation, sustainable medical care, sustainable agriculture, then we need industries to spring up (aided by government credit) to meet these objectives.

Since Obama's current plan seems to be to just create "jobs" and has no objectives attached to them, I see no long-term benefits from this alleged stimulus other than keeping a few million people out of the poor house for a few months.

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» RE: Will not work, but must be attempted Posted by: stopthemaddness2
the 8-ball system
Posted by: eosrk on Jan 10, 2009 4:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I want to propose an 8% flat-tax, and an 1% flat-tax on imports....they don't pay one to being with, so 1% shouldn't kill the importers...AND EVERYBODY TAKES PART IN IT, NO MORE LOOPHOLES AT ALL AND IT CAN WORK!!!!all 50 states!!!!
And leagalize weed and put a 8% tax on it.....an lot of jobs can be created off this...and MAKE VOTING LAW NOT A ACT ANYMORE THAT WOULD ELIMINATE A LOT OF BULLSHIT THERE!!!

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Join the money changers
Posted by: we_need_Abe on Jan 10, 2009 4:45 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think we should pool our resources and move a bunch of us, mainly those skilled with survivalist skills, to Paraguay. Rumor has it that's where the US "illuminati" are setting up safe haven for the coming riots. Let's make them feel at home!

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GONNA WORK IN TIME!!!
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Jan 10, 2009 4:52 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think he will do the best he can and with the right support and the right oversight, it will work but it is going to take TIME!

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Obama's Economic Advisory Board members are fraudsters and corporate cronies
Posted by: chlamor on Jan 10, 2009 8:25 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama's Economic Advisory Board members is a who's who of fraudsters and corporate cronies.

Robert Rubin - helped Enron cook its books, got caught cooking his own and committed numerous accounting fouls while at Ford. Guess who's in D.C., hat in hand, looking for a piece of that TARP bailout?

Anne Mulcahy - While CEO at Xerox, got popped for accounting fraud.

Richard Parsons - Also got popped for accounting fraud. Both Mulcahy and Parsons were directors at Fannie Mae when they were caught breaking accounting rules

So was another member of Obama's new economic board, former Commerce Secretary William Daley. He's now a member of the executive committee at JPMorgan Chase & Co., which, like Citigroup, is among the nine large banks that just got $125 billion of Treasury's bailout budget.

Another slot went to former White House economic adviser Laura Tyson. She's been a director for about a decade at Morgan Stanley, which in 2004 got slapped for accounting violations by the SEC and a month ago got $10 billion from Treasury.

Then you've got Emmanuel - consummate corporate insider. Of all the people Obama could have chosen as his chief of staff, couldn't he have found someone who wasn't once on the board of Freddie Mac? Disgusting.

Now, let me tell you what the Obama apologists are going to say in light of this "Status Quo You Can Be Sickened By" reversal. "It's great that he's choosing people who know how corrupt and broken the system so they can fix it", "who better to understand the problem than those with the highest levels of corporate experience", etc, etc. Poor arguments from even weaker minds.

There are are various "career tracks" that these people get on, from Government regulators to politicians to Federal Reserve Bankers to Academics, and so on. The "norm" has been that very few actual bankers or finance capitalists of any kind actually serve in government or in this kind of first-level advisory. Once in a while, you get a famous rich-guy who made it in local real estate or whatever, or you get a name (Ross Perot) or you get some very narrow stripe of characters that put themselves into government (typically defense contractors like Halliburton or KBR in the last round).

This time, though, it is very different. Look at how many senior bank executives are on this list (and I can think of a bunch of others who are part of the transition team, etc.). As counterpoint, the government bankers and academics are mostly missing, which is very unusual. You have Volker who doesn't count, and a bunch of minor-leaguers. The two fake-Nobels (Stiglitz and Krugman) are not prominent. I am willing to bet that this "team" is statistically different from any that have come before and it ain't no weird Naomi Klein nightmare of "corporatists", either. This is a government of bankers.

No wonder Obama doesn't like lobbyists. Who needs parasitic intermediaries when your team consists of the real thing.

Many of these guys should be getting subpoenas as material witnesses right about now, not places in Obama's inner circle. But who better to patch this economy in tatters than the very people responsible for tearing it to shreds? Who better to solve the myriad problems caused by white collar criminality than white collar criminals, most of whom held executive positions at the very companies that sent the economy reeling with "liberal" accounting and experimental derivatives.

The vacation is over, Obama fans. Time to hit him hard like you promised us you would. Enough with the idiotic "give him a chance, eeyore" claptrap. Those of you who voted for the man must now own up to what he's doing. When you've completed those letters brimming with indignation, please post a copy of them here so we can see that you're not full of shit. We'll be waiting.

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» BEST POST IN THREAD Posted by: edgeofnowhere
KEYNES WORKED. IT MAY HAVE TAKEN THE COMBINED EFFORTS OF ADOLF
Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Jan 10, 2009 8:42 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitler, Benito Mussolini, and Tojo to force the release of "capital". Yes, the original "disaster capitalists" were the Axis forces from WWII. Let us hope we can get by with a little less this time.

Right wing radicals don't give up easily. They won't this time either. They profit from all of this. It concentrates their wealth.

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Of course it will work.........
Posted by: gellero1 on Jan 10, 2009 8:43 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The national debt will be 'monetized' and you'll all be MILLIONAIRES in ten years.

Doesn't mean much , though.

I hope the Messiah will have the Congress grant Harvard degrees to all....perhaps even 'undocumented' Americans....so everyone is educated and the playing field is leveled.

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Let it all come down!
Posted by: ericthefool on Jan 10, 2009 11:20 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's right, let it all come down. The elite and money hungry people that got us in to this mess need to pay...and pay dearly. All of these "bailouts" are completely criminal and only feed the addict more of the same.

Look who donated the most to Obama. They are the same people that have put us in this mess. Why do you think more bailouts for the rich, are going to help us. WAKE THE FUCK UP!

The culture in America right now could care less about anything but themselves and their credit card. They would rather watch "American Idol" then deal with reality. This is the sickness in America and it NEEDS TO END. The only way it ends is if you cut off the drug. LET IT ALL COME DOWN and start from scratch.

Do you like the greed in America? Do you like having to lie and have someone else suffer so you can get ahead? Do you like being where you are at because of not who you are or what you believe in, but what you have made in profit? Do you think a used car salesman should get paid more then a teacher? Seriously, the sickness is everywhere and it NEEDS TO ALL COME DOWN.

The only way we move forward is to TEAR IT ALL DOWN. Greed needs to be turned into helpfulness. Selfishness needs to be redirected towards empathy. Selfishness needs to be redirected towards love. Our investments should be in people, not oil, not hedge funds, not consumer products. IT NEEDS TO BE ALL TORN DOWN.

If you think this culture is great and we can spend our way out of this, you are delusional. If you think that this Military Industrial Complex driving our economy is beneficial, you are mad. And if you think we are headed in the right direction, then you are psychotic.

TEAR IT ALL DOWN. Start over, and start rewarding people that help others. People that actually build up others. People that care for others. People that have love for others. BECAUSE money is the root of our problem. PEOPLE are our investment...NOT FUCKING COMMODITIES, CONSUMER GOODS, AND BULLSHIT PRODUCTS THAT YOU THROW AWAY A YEAR LATER. FUCKING WAKE THE FUCK UP.

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» Ditto Posted by: edgeofnowhere
» Tell me truly then, Fool... Posted by: Scalpel
» RE: Let it all come down! Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
The goal is quite simple really...
Posted by: richard0a37 on Jan 10, 2009 11:50 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr Hoffman makes some very interesting points, not least his criteria for determining the success or otherwise of Obama’s proposed stimulus plan.

During times of war, convoys of ships always travel at the speed of the slowest vessel. If the biggest and strongest ships moved at their own pace, this would leave the slower ones more vulnerable.

Why not apply the same reasoning to the health and well being of the nation as a whole? There is no dignity in being homeless or not having a decent place to live in. A town or city that has too many homeless does itself no favours, for this only ultimately leads to more crime and misery.

People need work, and they need comfortable and affordable housing.

If this is achieved, everything else falls into place.

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Q & A
Posted by: Direct Democracy on Jan 11, 2009 4:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one knows when they drop something that it will fall but the smart money is on gravity.

How will we know that the stimulus package is working? It will be an individual decision that Americans will make every day based on the likelihood that they're going to starve to death in the next 24 hours.

Spread the Power!


FREE AMERICA

REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY

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Money flows uphill! Put the money in the hands of consumers!
Posted by: thornwolf on Jan 11, 2009 5:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Trickle-down does not work because money flows uphill. No matter where money is injected into an economy it immediately begins its inexorable migration to the top. Therefore, tax cuts for the rich will never work as an economic stimulus. Supply-side economics is based on a LIE.

What company is going to hire "extra" workers just because the owners got a tax break? No company. What company is going to ramp up production absent an increase in demand? No company, obviously. To suggest otherwise is a fantasy or an outright lie.

What do consumers do with extra money? They spend it, of course. What does consumer spending do? It creates demand. In fact, it is demand itself. Companies boost production in response to increased demand. Companies hire more workers because of increased demand. 2+2=4. Duh. Anyone of ordinary intelligence can readily understand this obvious economic reality.

A real economic stimulus package would put money directly into the hands of consumers. It would require the rich to wait for that money to trickle uphill to them, like it naturally will. Cut taxes to the bone for working poor and middle class. Tax the hell out of the rich. They'll still be richer than anyone else. Tax corporate revenue, not profits. The corporations will pass that on to the consumer anyway, which is fine because the end user naturally pays all the costs. No deductions for expenses, simply tax revenue at a flat rate. Corporations are artificial privileged entities that are rightly regulated and taxed.

Do it. Do it right. Watch the economy sing. The rich will still get richer, 'twas ever thus, but most of them won't get obscenely rich (thanks to progressive taxation) and they won't get it by grinding workers into the dirt.

Why do people even listen to self-serving conservatives who constantly lie to line their own pockets at worker expense? Because people have been drinking the mainstream media kool-aid. The MSM is owned by the very same lying liars who steal your productivity and then blame it on you. TURN OFF YOUR TVs! Turn OFF the MSM! Do it for the sake of the country and our society and our fast-fading way of life.

Call or write your congressperson and your senators and demand tax reform that benefits everyone, not just the rich.

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» Consumption is the problem Posted by: edgeofnowhere
I don't understand
Posted by: Blink on Jan 11, 2009 5:43 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can the Messiah not save us? He is The One. In fact, it was He who told us that We Are The Ones We've Been Waiting For. He is The One told us, upon His nomination, that that was the moment in which the planet began to cool and the oceans began to recede. How can anyone who supported Him now doubt His Powers to heal the planet and make all things right?

The next few years are going to be the biggest laugh riot we've seen in decades, and it's already begun with Blago and Burris. However, the laughing will stop when our entire system melts down as a result of decades of living beyond our means pushed over the edge by Big O's massive spending and our Islamist enemies compounding the problem with another 9/11-type attack when they test this "young man with steel in his spine" (quoting the young man's VP).

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Footnote...
Posted by: Scalpel on Jan 11, 2009 1:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama never claimed he alone could save us...and he expected us to do more than just moan and complain.

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» RE: Footnote... Posted by: Blink
» RE: Footnote... Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
jonnierae
Posted by: jonnie rae on Jan 11, 2009 11:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think this idea that putting money into people's hands won't do any good because they will just save is ridiculous. That assumes that people have enough money now to live okay so they CAN save. I think actually tax cuts should be larger. Give the money to the people. They will spend it. Toasters break. Washing machines die. Heating oil needs to be purchased. Water heaters need to be replaced. Cars need to be fixed. I am a baby boomer living on a state pension. Believe me, I will spend the money. For one, I need a new stove. I think also credit card interest should be reduced for two years to ten percent. People would have a chance to get out of debt, or lower it significantly. It would also help the banks, because otherwise many are going to just default. I would rather see the money in the hands of the people than in some program that may or may not work.

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» RE: jonnierae Posted by: richholland
» RE: jonnierae Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
Failure is imminent
Posted by: edgeofnowhere on Jan 11, 2009 12:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Going into more debt in order to get out of debt is just not a viable option, whether or not you hold a Nobel in economics. Let's not forget that the geniuses at LTCM won Nobels for their mathematical formulae guaranteed to beat the market forever! YOU CANNOT PRINT YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT. IT ALWAYS ENDS IN COLLAPSE.

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» RE: Failure is imminent Posted by: Scalpel
» RE: Failure is imminent Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Failure is imminent Posted by: Scalpel
same players, same game
Posted by: richholland on Jan 11, 2009 8:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when FDR started his NEW DEAL, the capitalists shouted; he is a communist, this is the end of the free USA.
In fact HE saved capitalisme. He saved the USA

Now the players and institutions are still there. What NEW DEAL Obama is giving???

In Europe we had also a bailout but as quarantee the banks had to give shares.
The banks had to promise no more crazy bonuses for CEO.

What are the economical and political changes in the future in the USA????????????????

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» RE: same players, same game Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
$3 trillion is . ,. .
Posted by: amonk7 on Jan 11, 2009 8:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So far we have given $3 trillion to financial institutions in cash, loans and guarantees, much of it unaccounted for, most hoarded by the recipients. For perspective, if you walk from San Francisco to New York and throw $1 Million in the air every couple paces you’d still have $100 billion left to spend in New York.

Step, step, throw a million. Step, step, throw . . .

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» RE: $3 trillion is . ,. . Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
ASS trology. Left Cheek is the Past. Right the future, Where is the present?
Posted by: common intelligence on Jan 11, 2009 9:11 PM   
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In the present there is only "out Go". The future there is only out go. The past the same.

So how in the god damn hell can we ever be taxed for income?

There is no Money then, now, or the future. IT's all frigging gone.

The only thing that has value is our blood, sweat, and tears.

Trickle down economics just plan ass doesn't work.
This Stimulus is going up are......Well It won't make us feel better for long.
We can't borrow from a banking system, and pay them back with interest and be taxed and have any economic growth. I just don't see what is so damn hard to understand.

The value of a dozen eggs never changes. In side each egg is a fixed nutritive value (excluding GMO's.

The "price" of the money goes up and down, the price of gold and silver and platinum all go up and down. But an actual egg remains constant. The only thing that changes is what is charged for the egg. But too, more eggs are laid WITH the same nutritional value.

What should na economic system really be based on? Manufacturing cars, like a chicken lays eggs? (but there is no nutritive value in them?
Get it?

In capitalism no one gets a bigger piece of pie than someone else doesn't get a smaller piece. And you can only eat so much pie. So one person is always getting less and the one's getting extra, and keep stashing the rest with no purpose for it 'cause they can't eat more than the can swallow.
SO TAKE IT AWAY FROM THE BASTARD THIEVES.
Don't give them more.

STOP PAYING TAXES. Hank Paulson is stashing it and robbing everyone. Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Rice, Wolfowitz, Addison, .......
Everyone of these Thieves needs to be shot.
DON"T GIVE ANY MORE.
DON"T GIVE IN TO your fears.

United we can be. But
"THEY" are always plotting to keep us divided.

We have the power, but the numb sheep are just that. STUPID ASS SHEEP. Lemmings follow each other right of the damn cliffs.

DOn't fall for the gift of the Trojan Horse.

What would happen if everyone got a stimulas check and returned it?
What would happen if people refused to be indoctrinated into the service? STop fighting and killing?

If you had peace, what would you do with it?

If you can't define "it" you don't deserve it, and you won't get it, because
You never get something if you don't ask for it..

So What do you really want?
750 billion dollars of debt?
on top of the gazillion in debt there already is?

These bastards never have had any intension of paying off any debt to China, Japan, Germany, India. THEY"RE GOD DAMN THIEVES!
DOn't you get it?

IF YOU ALL DON"T FOCUS ON ACCOUNTABILITY, the same bastards are going to keep the world and all you make for themselves.
They are bloody thieves. Jail and hang'm high!

Then we can rebuild the world and feed their entrails to the hogs.

(No I'm not pissed!)

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Of course it will work
Posted by: LGL on Jan 11, 2009 9:12 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It will work to cause massive inflation. Hyper Inflation. Learn a little economics guys.

Ken
www.LaserGuidedLoogie.com

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» RE: Of course it will work Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
"No One Knows If It Will Work" = LIE
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jan 13, 2009 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It will NOT work, plain and simple. For every dollar Oboma wants to pump into the economy, the treasury has to sell a T-bill. Who is going to buy a trillion dollars worth of T-bills? And even if there is a buyer, is that the best use of their money?? When I say these people in washington are deliberately destroying the economy, it is a fact. By spending all this money, they are luring capital into treasuries yielding almost nothing. How is that supposed to help the economy? This has been a known obvious fact for decades, but now the media has a stranglehold on the public. So the public cannot understand what happens when govt borrows and spends massive amounts of money.

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Best medicine is liberty
Posted by: WarDogLRS on Jan 23, 2009 2:57 AM   
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Few will argue there is nothing wrong with the status of health care in the United States. In fact, the sentiments against the status quo are almost unanimous: the system is broken.

Yet there are many whose ideas to fix the system will actually make it worse for everyone, and especially those who can least afford more costly social experiments

As a physician with more than 30 years of private practice, I have too often found that the very people most hurt by "reforms" in health care are the same ones politicians and pundits claimed they were going to help.

The current legislative drive regarding health care is no exception

The more government has been involved, the greater the costs and distortions. Initially there was little resistance to the federal meddling, since payments were generous and services were rarely restricted. Doctors liked being paid adequately for services that in the past were done at discount or for free, while the patients saw they were getting great access without huge costs. The nation's medical bill grew as the incentive for patients to economize eroded.

While Americans have deep pockets for the tax man to pull from and the bureaucrat to regulate, those pockets are neither bottomless nor overflowing. In recent years, the increasing tax-bite has become noticeable as the costs of the regulations have become more burdensome.

Yet rather than reverse the trend and liberate patients, physicians and the health care market, many in Congress would make the situation worse by adding new regulations and new fees, while eroding services and limiting choices

Among the worst is "must provide" regulations on health insurance providers. These new regs translate into higher costs for the consumer as insurance companies become forced to provide coverage for services they have no desire to cover precisely because they are too costly. While the knee-jerk reaction might be to say, "That's great, they should pay for" whatever. But such a reaction means limiting the choices of consumers, because insurance companies will either increase rates to cover the new costs, or deny coverage altogether.

A non-smoking, non-drinking single mother may not wish to pay premiums to cover the costs of an alcoholic man's addiction treatments, but new regulations could require just that. No longer will that single mom have the option to pay the lower insurance rates. Suddenly, she has no real choice; she must pay the higher rates or be without coverage.

Worse, yet, she may have no choice at all, as new regulations price her, or her insurer, out of the health insurance market with no alternative.

This is what has happened over the last three decades. More and more people, from the lowest economic classes, have been methodically pushed from the system by the cost of greater regulation. The increased number of uninsured then becomes the rallying cry for more government action, which raises costs again. A vicious cycle, benefiting no one.

The most important thing Congress can do is to stop practicing medicine and allow market forces to operate by allowing Medical Savings Accounts (MSAs) for everyone. Patient motivation to save and shop would be a major force in reducing cost, as physicians would once again negotiate fees with patients. MSAs would help satisfy the American's people's desire to control their own health care and provide incentives for consumers to take more responsibility for their care. MSAs will also allow those consumers to do business with insurance provider of their choice, who will cover the needs and procedures for which that family is willing and able to pay.

The people deserve more than the status quo, and better than quasi-socialized medicine. The experience of the last thirty-plus years is clear: even in health care, liberty is the best medicine.

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"... But No One Knows If It Will Work" ?
Posted by: Chaim on Jan 28, 2009 3:24 AM   
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"... But No One Knows If It Will Work" ?

Some people DO know: It probably won't.

One Reason: He's not planning to "change" or phase out "fractional reserve banking" and its associated corruption, which lies at the root of perpetual, systemic economic/financial "crises".


Some people DO know: It probably won't.

One Reason: He's not planning to "change" or phase out "fractional reserve banking" and its associated corruption, which lies at the root of perpetual, systemic economic/financial "crises".

See, for example:
Money, Bona Fide or Non-Bona Fide by Edward E. Popp
www.inspiredconstitution.org/popp_bonafide/index.html

and
The Great Cookie Jar: Taking the Mysteries out of the Money System by Dr. Edward E. Popp
linked text

Also, the "landmark paper" by Vladimir Nuri:
"Fractional reserve banking as economic parasitism"
linked text

Fractional Reserve Banking as Economic Parasitism
A Scientific, Mathematical, & Historical Expose, Critique, and Manifesto
Vladimir Z. Nuri
linked text

"Obama/Soetoro/Dunham/(?)" is not capable of any REAL "change" or "reform"as he is a puppet embedded in the "Matrix". All major "governments" and their stealth-slavery "societies" of sheeple/Kool-Aid drinkers, and their enablers are subject to the "military-industrial-intelligence and banking-financial-media-political complex".

Sorry. "Change" comes from within. One first needs to be "awake".


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