COMMENTS: 140
Is the House's Health Bill Really Worse than Nothing?
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Step back for a moment and marvel at the legislative contortions on display in Washington as lawmakers try to address a deep crisis in our health-care system without shaking up the status quo too much.
What does that look like? They’re planning to leave the employer-based private system intact, but they’ll re-regulate insurers to a modest degree and brand it “change." No, they won’t force private insurers to compete with a public plan on a truly level playing field, but they’ll give us a small public option where insurance companies can park their sicker, costlier patients. Perhaps states will be able to skip that part entirely. They refuse to make other hard choices that might really bring down costs, but they’ll force you to buy a policy -- don’t worry, if sky-high premiums are out of your reach, they’ll give you a subsidy, assuming you qualify. For those who are too poor to afford even those subsidized premiums, they’ll expand Medicaid, and they’ll pay for the whole thing in part by trimming payments to Medicare providers. And maybe with a tax on millionaires, or maybe one on union autoworkers and others with expensive health insurance. They’ll make employers shoulder a share of their workers’ health-care, or perhaps just pay a small fine if they refuse to.
Got all that? They call Washington’s legislative process "sausage-making," but this time around you’d almost think they’re mixing up a batch of hash brownies. If we’re lucky, what comes out of the oven will be a uniquely American "universal" health-care system that’ll only leave something in the neighborhood of 20 million people uninsured 10 years from now.
But that’s only half the story -- the half about how a decent, progressive legislative proposal got watered down to such a degree by the insurance industry and its allies in Congress that it will do little or nothing to rein in the staggering growth of health-care costs and ultimately prove a windfall, to some degree, for the private insurance industry.
Unfortunately, that half is also almost the exclusive focus of a widely discussed analysis, by one of the nation’s most respected single-payer advocates, of the health-care reforms wending their way through Congress. And focusing primarily on that half, it should come as little surprise that Marcia Angell, a lecturer at Harvard Medical School and a passionate proponent of progressive health-care reform, concluded the bill is "worse than nothing” in an essay published on the Huffington Post.
Her analysis of the bill’s shortcomings is spot-on. Most of her column slices and dices the many ways in which the House bill fails to control costs, fails to cover every person in the country and “augments the central role of the investor-owned insurance industry."
But while it’s hard to argue with her analysis of the bill’s flaws, her conclusion that it's "worse than nothing" is harder to accept. To get there, one has to all but ignore the fact that the House legislation would do quite a bit for millions of real Americans struggling through a very real health-care crisis.
Angell all but ignores that, rendering her analysis incomplete. There were always multiple goals to reform: covering the uninsured, offering access to decent care to those who are priced out of the current system, reining in the abuses of the private market and controlling overall health care costs. The House bill, the subject of Angell’s column, does fail miserably at controlling overall costs and the insurance regulations it contains are tepid (they would only stop the worst abuses, and have loopholes, but that’s clearly better than nothing at all), but it would also do quite a lot to expand the access and improve the affordability of coverage for tens of millions of Americans, many at the lower end of the economic ladder.
Angell all but ignores that primary thrust of the legislation. She offers only this brief indication that the proposal would bring any relief at all to working families:
To be sure, the bill has a few good provisions (expansion of Medicaid, for example), but they are marginal. It also provides for some regulation of the industry (no denial of coverage because of pre-existing conditions, for example), but since it doesn't regulate premiums, the industry can respond to any regulation that threatens its profits by simply raising its rates.
Marginal is in the eye of the beholder, and Angell arguably negates her larger, "worse than nothing" thesis in the paragraph above. According to the Congressional Budget Office, Medicaid expansion alone would offer public insurance to more than 10 million low-income Americans who would otherwise be without.
While Angell at least gives a passing nod to the fact that Medicaid would be expanded to those earning up to 150 percent of the poverty line in the House bill, she omits entirely the rather generous subsidies for those making between 150-400 percent of the poverty line (almost $90,000 for a family with two kids). More than nine in ten people who lack insurance in America fall beneath 400 percent of the poverty line, and every one of them will get some help getting coverage. We can certainly quibble over the definitions of “decent” and “affordable,” but Angell’s argument is that the House bill is worse than a status quo in which decent affordable coverage -- by any definition of those words -- eludes tens of millions.
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Posted by: bonapartist on Nov 24, 2009 1:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Significant portion of the Left cannot stomach it despite belonging, at least in theory, to Obama's supporters. The rift is widening but instead of placating the base the spin machine is on the job.
It also seems that authors of articles such as this like to defend their writings so I am not going to be surprised if I get a reply from Mr. Holland.
My observation is that such replies usually include one or more of the following: reference to author's superior wisdom / knowledge (I read the 2000 pages bill and you didn't), focus on isolated segments while ignoring the bigger picture (it would provide some healthcare for the poor) and playing on people's feelings (if you don't support it you are insensitive to the plight of the poor).
Although it is hardly surprising as Obama is aiming for a second term and two wars, bailout for the rich and stimulus are hardly bright spots. Healthcare, if properly packed and served, might do the trick.
Fire when ready.
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» RE: Another one? Yeah, OBAMA'S health care plan?
Posted by: Beck
» Actually, Beck
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» JOSHUA STATES "Yeah, I'm a corporate whore, OK, great. What's that got to do with health-care legisl
Posted by: smf1403
» Half a loaf is better than none, granny used to say
Posted by: Sojourner
» No, in this case half a loaf is actually less than nothing
Posted by: guns4everyone
» RE: No, in this case half a loaf is actually less than nothing
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Stupak
Posted by: Witness
» RE: Stupak
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Another one?
Posted by: nononsense
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Posted by: lefty010 on Nov 24, 2009 2:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And why on earth should any person in the richest country on the entire planet have to go without health insurance for any reason?
How about diverting some of the BILLIONS of dollars a month that are being stuffed into the RAT HOLES of Afghanistan/Iraq/Pakistan toward covering everyone with THE BEST health care rather than killing brown people on the other side of the planet?
Oh I know...it's a weird, wacky idea but not nearly as insane as the endless war and profit-before-people mentality of those in power.
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» RE: Yeah but...
Posted by: HoldmAccountable
» I know it's complex
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: I know it's complex
Posted by: peacefullaim1
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Posted by: noalternative on Nov 24, 2009 2:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Nov 24, 2009 3:15 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"No" is "No" regardless of the excuse.
And if you are going to call yourself a 'progressive' at least understand the concept.
It ain't magic friends.
To "Imagine" is easy. To Achieve is not.
Pass the Damn bill and Tweek it after that!
Otherwise '10 and '12 will be wins for 3rd party candidates.
Conserva Dems pull your panties out of your asses and Lefties find a bucket of water, pass this healthcare bill or get caught in the same tarpit as the Neo Cons.
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» RE: So the Horse is 'Common'
Posted by: December5
» RE: Another Two Horse Race
Posted by: kettleblack
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Nov 24, 2009 3:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm very much of the view that Obama is an unmitigated catastrophe for the Democratic Party. It's quite unnerving how many progressives voted for this most right-wing of Democrats.
My prayer: let Obama be a One-Termer.
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» RE: A rhetorical question if there ever was one
Posted by: HoldmAccountable
» Strange inclusion
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Nov 24, 2009 3:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We'll live to fight another day.
http://www.tomdegan.blogspot.com
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
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» RE: Health Care and Woe
Posted by: wbblack
» You're absolutely right
Posted by: Tom Degan
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Posted by: eridani on Nov 24, 2009 4:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The core of the bill is pure unmitigated crap. It is basically mandated overpriced underinsurance. The four levels offered on the exchange reflect the values of sociopaths--namely that if you have money you deserve good health care, and if you don't you are disposable human garbage.
The lowest level is only marginally better than really cheap and crappy catastrophic coverage that depletes your bank account and makes it much harder to keep paying for ongoing care. And THAT is the only level eligible for subsidies. What good is a subsidy if the useless parasites don't have to pay for actual care unless they feel like it?
Insurance companies still dictate who your doctor can be, can still deny claims at will, and still make getting anything out of them a royal pain in the ass that amounts to a demanding part time job. And they can still refuse to insure some people with pre-existing conditions--it just won't be called that. Ever not paid medical bills because you didn't have the money? You can still be denied because of your bad credit record.
IF this bill passes, it means electoral defeat for Dems, as mostly people will not notice anything but costs continuing to go through the roof. But it is still possible to salvage something--just pull out the useful parts of the bill and pass them separately. That will deny the Repubs a neenerneenerneener moment.
Each of the following could be separate bills.
1CREATES NEW, VOLUNTARY, PUBLIC LONG-TERM CARE INSURANCE PROGRAM—Creates a long-term care insurance program to be financed by voluntary payroll deductions to provide benefits to adults who become functionally disabled.
COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTERS—Increases funding for Community Health Centers to allow for a doubling of the number of patients seen by the centers over the next 5 years.
INCREASING NUMBER OF PRIMARY CARE DOCTORS — Provides new investment in training programs to increase the number of primary care doctors, nurses, and public health professionals.
As for HELP FOR EARLY RETIREES—Creates a $10 billon fund to finance a temporary reinsurance program to help offset the costs of expensive health claims for employers that provide health benefits for retirees age 55-64.
This is utterly useless to retirees with no access to such benefits. Put the $10 billion into Medicare, and allow retirees in this age group to join, as Senator Rockefeller has already proposed. Direct benefits to retirees should trump benefits to employers.
Same for IMMEDIATE HELP FOR THE UNINSURED UNTIL EXCHANGE IS AVAILABLE (INTERIM HIGH-RISK POOL) — Creates a temporary insurance program until the Exchange is available for individuals who have been uninsured for several months or have been denied a policy because of pre-existing conditions.
This is a totally useless overpriced abortion, given that it would probably be like what high risk pools at the state level are now. Just let high risk people into Medicare early like we do with disabled people. Put the subsidy money into Medicare to take care of the extra expense.
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» Sorry, but actually it does, to a significant extent.
Posted by: mjabele
» So why are public hospitals undergoing massive funding cuts?
Posted by: eridani
» I wouldn't be cheering for health care reform failure....
Posted by: CatDad
» Wrong--success means handing over control to insurance giants
Posted by: eridani
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Posted by: SufiLizard on Nov 24, 2009 4:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This will "prove" in conventional wisdom that "liberal" reform doesn't work, so we'll be stuck with "conservative" reform for at least a generation.
This will cost many more lives in the U.S. and across the globe.
As frustrated as I am with the Obama Administration, it is still way better than the alternative. Just think where we would be right now if McCain and Palin has been sworn in this past January? How many more wars would we be involved with? How much worse would our economy be? Would we even be talking about health care reform, let alone a public option?
That being said, I think we're looking at two possibilities with health care. We either fail to pass anything at all, which leaves many Americans in the same horrible shape they're in today, with even more suffering as our system continues to implode. And Democrats will pay in 2010 and probably 2012.
The other possibility is that Democrats pass a really crappy bill that strengthens the position of corporate profiteers in our health care system, proves disastrous for most Americans and Democrats will pay even more dearly in 2010, 2012 and beyond.
Barring some miracle, I think Democrats, and the country, are looking at a major lose-lose situation. Thanks to spinlessness in the caucus in dealing with Blue Dogs and ConservaDems.
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Posted by: franklyspanking on Nov 24, 2009 5:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Expansion of some form of coverage to a few percents of Americans isn't worth the train wreck it would bring on the rest of us, and the cost of said train wreck. 'At what cost?' is a reasonable metric to most folks who focus on quality and affordability of health care for 300,000,000 Americans, not just the 15,000,000 that many folks seem to view as their personal pets and/or crusade.
Personally, I would rather be taxed for the cost of covering the 15,000,000 or 20,000,000 indigent who can't afford health insurance than to see Obama's and his Congresscritters' mandates that private citizens purchase anything related to their personal medical decisions.
Then again, I'm a pro-choice advocate, which is an awfully unpopular position amongst folks who ushered in our new strong-father political machine in D.C. land.
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» RE: easoning is important.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: easoning is important.
Posted by: wbblack
» English comprehension.
Posted by: franklyspanking
» Single Payer saves lives and money...right away.
Posted by: weightman
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Nov 24, 2009 5:17 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The one virtue I do see in getting a bill passed, no matter how weak and compromised, is that it is apt to give government a financial interest in the conduct of the insurance industry. Just as the co-pays were supposedly introduced to give medical consumers some reason to scream about over-charges, maybe having to pay more of the bills will make government sit up and take notice. This will be especially true if government becomes the insurer of last resort, responsible for only the most costly cases.
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Posted by: Beck on Nov 24, 2009 5:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Conversation
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: I dunno, IS the bill worse than nothing? Are people afraid to just declare an opinion?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: weightman on Nov 24, 2009 5:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bad legislation fails to adequately redress whatever grievance or controversy which initiated the call for reform. And in doing so, entrenches into government organizational structure, procedures, protocols, and regulations designed to support the failures of bad legislation. And when the grievances or controversies leading to the call for reform inevitably return, the organizational structure, procedures, protocols, and regulations designed to support the failures must be overcome as well as the continued injustice perpetuated by bad legislation.
For example: Gun control legislation. Continuous compromise and capitulation leading to enforcement, when not left to private industry, being underfunded, ignored, and woefully inadequate to meet the demands of the electorate. Decade after decade after decade.
The insurance industry bailout being foisted upon the American people as healthcare reform is bad legislation. The crumbs tossed by the neoliberal despots serve only to aid in the continuing manufacture of consent for legislation designed to perpetuate the discrimination and corruption which lines their pockets, and those of their advocates.
From the beginning, the healthcare debate has been one-sided. The neoliberals and their advocates created the bipartisan debate, denying the validity of any idea, like Single Payer, not accepted into the predetermined framework of debate. True comprehensive healthcare reform was excluded in favor of sustaining an industry rationing healthcare based on economic class, race, gender and age. All for the sake of politics, with no regard for the tragedy their actions serve to perpetuate. Their actions have left the public sadly misinformed as to the social justice inherit in true reform, but as to the economic benefits as well.
Single Payer saves lives. Single Payer saves money. The only thing it doesn't do is perpetuate the greed and corruption found in our current healthcare system.
The only real answer for true comprehensive healthcare reform always has been, and always will be, universal coverage. One group. One plan. One payer. Medicare for all. Single Payer.
For those wishing to be informed, rather than preached to by state clergy:
Talking points on HR 3962 with some comparisons to the Senate (Reid) bill in bold. By Ida Hellander, MD
Comparing the House and the Senate Health Care Proposals from the New York Times
Side-by-Side Comparison of Major Health Care Reform Proposals from The Kaiser Family Foundation (which will be updated to reflect current health insurance legislation)
Kill the Bill
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» Bad legislation is worse than no legislation.
Posted by: jooljetkmae
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Posted by: drricklippin on Nov 24, 2009 6:06 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I say the stars of moral and economic imperatives have finally aligned on this issue
To see nothing passed now would be very demoralizing
But I also contend we ALL are fed up with all that is wrong with our political process from campaign and election reform to the painfully slow legislation process including the filibuster provision nonsense
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: Sorry - You're not getting "health care reform"
Posted by: chetdude
» RE: Sorry - chetude....
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Sorry - I am for SOMETHING
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: wbblack on Nov 24, 2009 6:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ps. I understand if you prefer not to answer. I like a lot of what you write about labor issues, didn't want to be completely negative.
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» Happy to discuss
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: wbblack
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: wbblack
» Not sure on what we actually disagree
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» "the format of posting on websites brings out my obnoxious side" Don't feel bad, it's universal
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: peacefullaim1
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Posted by: FAITHCARR on Nov 24, 2009 6:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's your salmonella sandwich -- eat it and be grateful-- We'll "fix" it later -- Later-Later-Later
I think it is just about late enough
I'm staying home on election day --
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» RE: As Always the refrain will be
Posted by: lclark
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Posted by: americansheep on Nov 24, 2009 7:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: apathetic consumer zombie on Nov 24, 2009 7:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you want to talk about privileging ideology, look at the republicans and blue dogs who refuse to support legislation because it "hinders the free market" or "is not deficit-neutral".
I disagree with the frame of the titular question. Of course anything that expands coverage a little and saves lives is better than nothing. However, continuing to water-down the legislation to get a few more votes of those blue dogs or her royal highness Olympia Snowe is essentially privileging their ideology over the extra lives that would have been saved if we had a robust public option, or an amendment that allowed for single-payer.
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Posted by: Kimberly on Nov 24, 2009 8:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When he spoke about Citizens reporting fraud and abuse, he differed them to the Provider 'Offender' who is abusing them to resolve the complaint, which Apparently, is not resolving fraud and abuse issues - this is ( intimidation HHS|HMO T42CFR417.1 ) PROCESS is called ' alternate dispute resolution ', or the 'Managed Care Government Grievance Procedure'. This white collar crime - 'Administrative Procedure', has been used since 1998 to defraud Federally Entitled COVERED Individuals and Federal Health Care Programs with respect to T42CFR409.33 Post Hospital Extended Care Service Claims. It is an HHS OIG Anti-Dumping and Anti-Kickback Violation as well as a 1996 HCFA HIPAA Violation.
DETERMINING RIGHTS SSA 1128B
OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT - OPM Sec. 900.401, Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 Authority: Sec. 602, 78 Stat. 252 (42 U.S.C. 2000d-1). Source: 38 FR 17920, July 5, 1973 - A PERSON [ Entitled Individual ] SHALL NOT BE DENIED [ HHS|HMO T42CFR417.1 grievance procedure - alternate dispute resolution T18CFR242CRIME ] THE BENEFITS OF or be otherwise subjected to discrimination under a program ( OPM FEHB Health Insurance Program ) or activity receiving Federal financial assistance from OPM
The Anti-Dumping Statute is Enforced [ 1998 still pending T18CFR371CRIME - Alternate Dispute Resolution T18CFR1518CRIME ] Jointly by the Health Care Financing Administration ( HCFA ) and the Office of Inspector General ( OIG ) of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). Health Care Finance Administration (HCFA), has JURISDICTION over the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) of 1996
TITLE 42--PUBLIC HEALTH CHAPTER IV-[ HCFA ]-HEALTH CARE FINANCING ADMINISTRATION, [ HHS ] DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES PART 409-- HOSPITAL INSURANCE BENEFITS --Table of Contents Subpart D-[ Federal ]-Requirements for Coverage of Post-hospital SNF [ NURSING FACILITY ] Care Sec. 409.33 Examples of skilled nursing [ Medically Necessary ] and rehabilitation services. ~~ To DENY this SERVICE [ HHS|HMO T42CFR417.1 grievance procedure|Alternate Dispute Resolution - denial of Covered T42CFR409.33 Claims T42CFR438.704 adverse determination ], is called an Anti-Dumping Violation
The mission of the Office of DISPUTE RESOLUTION [ T18CFR371CRIME - HHS|HMO T42CFR417.1 Alternate Dispute Resolution 42CFR438.704 grievance procedure - 1996 HIPAA Violation ]
.......... is to promote and facilitate the broad and effective use of Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) processes BY the Department of Justice and throughout the Executive Branch of the federal government. Please note that the Office of Dispute Resolution represents, and is working on behalf of, the Department of Justice and the United States in matters being handled by the federal government.
Antitrust Enforcement and the Consumer
Many CONSUMERS have Never heard of ANTI TRUST LAWS, but when these laws are effectively and responsibly Enforced, they can Save consumers [ Lives 42CFR438.704 ] millions and even BILLIONS of dollars a year in illegal [ HHS|HMO T42CFR417.1 KICKBACK ] overcharges.
Most states have antitrust laws, and so does the federal government. Essentially, these laws PROHIBIT BUSINESS PRACTICES that unreasonably Deprive consumers - INDIVIDUALS, of the Benefits [ HHS|HMO T42CFR417.1 grievance procedure - systematic denial of Existing Federal FEHB|HMO T42CFR409.33 Post-Hospital Extended Care Services, to force illegal HCFA State OFIS Medicaid Kickback T42CFR409.33 conversion ] of competition, RESULTING in higher prices for inferior products and services Joel I. Klein Assistant Attorney General Antitrust Division
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Posted by: thicky on Nov 24, 2009 8:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And while this reform may provide marginally more affordable health insurance it will not provide more affordable health care coverage. The present bills will allow insurance companies to provide less coverage at higher deductibles. Even now most bankruptcies are caused by health care costs not covered by the insurance people already have. How many more people will die because of weakened health insurance coverage?
Unlike the Democratic Party shills who believe their re-election depends on passing anything that has the phrase "health care reform" on it, I want to save all 45,000 people per year who die from lack of health insurance and not only the lucky few who may be helped by the crumbs in the present health care bills.
As for the argument--"trust us, pass this piece of shit bill now and we will IMPROVE it later"--it is laughable. Not only will this bill entrench for-profit health insurance companies in the health care system(private for-profit health insurance companies are a 20th century industry that is an anachronism in the 21st century), it is just as likely that nothing will be done to improve this health care/insurance legislation in the future and even more likely that the scumbags in congress will legislate changes that will make it WORSE: they will weaken or eliminate anything that benefits the consumers and strengthen the mandates and increase the subsidies for health insurance company profits.
Anything that mandates and subsidizes health insurance company profits is a fraud and much much worse than nothing.
Let this fail, elect pro-single-payer candidates in 2010, and give us single-payer health insurance(or at least reform with a strong public option)in 2011 that will save all 45,000 people by 2013.
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Posted by: lclark on Nov 24, 2009 8:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its not healthcare reform but Corporate welfare. We're only arguing over how much.
For example:
"School Based Health Clinics: The bill includes funding for School Based Health Clinics that will include subjective psychiatric mental health screening (called mental health assessments) of children, and 'referral to a continuum of services including emergency psychiatric care, community support programs, inpatient care, and outpatient programs' as part of their 'comprehensive primary health services.' This is a direct feeder line for the psycho/pharmaceutical industry directly into our schools. -Section 2511, Page 1352"
Above is a means to get more kids on Ritalin.
The bill is full of these obsenities.
Trash it and look to the various healthcare plans in other countries.
Before Dobbs was removed from the air he did a good series on healthcare plans in various countries. From that I gathered:
-a larger % of our GNP already goes to healthcare than other countries.
-we have a fewer doctors for the population.
-healthcare is less accessible.
Enough of this "sausage-making" for the corporations.
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Posted by: kettleblack on Nov 24, 2009 9:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, do I understand this right? There will be more poor shuffled into Medicaid. And, they are taking money from Medicare doctors to pay for all these additional people.
So, will there be fewer Medicare doctors, and more patients?
Please, will someone clarify this for me?
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» RE: The New Math is puzzling to seniors like me
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Smart Seniors Know Better
Posted by: gnat
» RE: The New Math is puzzling to seniors like me
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Math and REAL FACTS Are Important
Posted by: gnat
» RE: Math and REAL FACTS Are Important
Posted by: kettleblack
» RE: Math and REAL FACTS Are Important
Posted by: gnat
» RE: Math and REAL FACTS Are Important
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Lying with Numbers
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Numbers Tell the Story For All Business
Posted by: gnat
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Posted by: Gravitas on Nov 24, 2009 10:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In one version of the bill, they allowed employers to charge double amounts of "overweight" employees' contributions. That is RIDICULOUS! Over 1/2 of fat people have NO increased risk of disease. As a healthy fat person who hasn't had a medical claim in over a decade why should I be forced by law to pay double or risk going to prison when I have lower costs??? If they are going to be draconian, those who get charged double should be the costliest employees, not those who are put in dubious risk categories by bad science. Of course the real reason is to provide a boon to pharma and the weight loss industry which will again capitalize on dangerous weight loss products that drive up costs even further.
I agree with the Dr. I think she called it right. And if the provisions I mentioned above do go into effect, pharma, big insurance, and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce who supports these discriminatory provisions better keep a close on on their backs!!!
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» Silly, ridiculous lies
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Silly, ridiculous lies
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Silly, ridiculous lies
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Hmmm...gotta agree with Dabear here
Posted by: lefty010
» Upon rereading the comments...
Posted by: lefty010
» RE: Silly, ridiculous lies - Trust your Government & the IRS
Posted by: kettleblack
» Funny spin
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Not defending the status quo - Single Payer for ALL!
Posted by: kettleblack
» So how do you think they do it in Europe? You think they don't "force" people to be taxed?!?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: So how do you think they do it in Europe? You think they don't "force" people to be taxed?!?
Posted by: DaBear
» Most European countries don't have USP...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: So how do you think they do it in Europe? You think they don't "force" people to be taxed?!?
Posted by: countingdaisies
» Have to wonder whether that Canadian was employed...
Posted by: mjabele
» Isn't "healthy fat person" an oxymoron ? There is no such thing.
Posted by: smc31569
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chetdude on Nov 24, 2009 10:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
EVERY OTHER rich nation decided that every person residing in their country deserves access to quality health care (for whatever moral or rational reasons they chose) and then found a way to do it.
In contrast, USAmerica can't even make the simple statement that "people deserve access to quality Health Care."
Those competing bills in the Corporate-Funded Congress, both competing in the race toward the "bottom", as Corporate-funded USAmerican legislation always does, are convoluted but pristine examples of the basic greed and hypocrisy that drives the USAmerican domestic and foreign political process.
But, go ahead and pass them...who gives a shit?
The revolutionary in me knows that if they pass they will ratchet up the pain level and costs of USAmerican Sick Care a few more notches. This may be the last straw when combined with peak oil, catastrophic climate change and the collapse of the ridiculous Ponzi scheme mislabeled as an "economy", we will finally have the incentive to move past it all -- secede from the dominator hierarchy so to speak.
So, the bills are NOT worth passing if you're interested in actually implementing Universal, Affordable Health Care but they'll definitely help bring blood in the streets.
Up the Revolution!
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» RE: Why is the USAmerican Empire so fataly flawed?
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
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Posted by: Prinzowhales on Nov 24, 2009 10:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These creatures are contemptible!!!
Single payer plan, Now! Private health insurance can go to the dust bin of history along with the banking industry.
DOWN WITH THE DEMOPUBLICAN REGIME!...THE ARSE-LICKING DOGS OF THE HEALTH INSURANCE FRAUDSTERS!! TROOPS HOME NOW!!
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Posted by: roy f on Nov 24, 2009 10:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And because of the penalties for not having insurance, the insurance companies will be able to raise their premiums even more than that, knowing that they have a captive audience, so to speak.
And who would be paying for those subsidies, anyway? How likely is it that that tax on the rich in the House bill will survive in the final bill? Most likely, ordinary people will be doing the paying, as usual. So we will have a giant pump sucking money from ordinary people and giving it to the insurance companies, on top of everything else that already redistributes wealth upward.
Once the insurance companies have even more money, they will be able to use it to bribe our politicians even more, and bombard the mass media with their advertising propaganda even more, and give the corrupt candidates who support them even more campaign contributions to use to buy ads on TV, so that idiots who vote whatever ways their TVs tell them to will vote them into office even more, making real reform even more difficult to achieve.
Doctors used to use leeches in medical care, and we still do, only now they are insurance companies instead of annelid worms.
Let this bill die, and the fascist Democrats along with it. The fascist Republicans are already self-destructing. When voters become totally fed up with both those parties, let them not stay home, even if they think a 3rd party candidate will never win, but get off their asses and and vote SOCIALIST anyway. When enough people do that, they WILL win. Even more important, since we do not live in a democracy, let us take to the streets and shut down the country until we get what we want, as they seem to do in every country but ours.
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Posted by: tommy_slothrop on Nov 24, 2009 11:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The second -- almost as important as the first -- was getting away from employer-based health insurance so that people could begin to reduce the part that corporations played in their lives and employers could hire people without taking on a lot of administrative overhead for providing health insurance. I was hoping that this could lead to reduced worktime instead of "creating jobs" by making product we'd be better off without.
Really, what I was hoping for was a single-payer system. After Obama started out by eliminating the single-payer option because "we already have this employer-based system in place" I pretty much lost interest in the whole debate.
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Posted by: Dboy on Nov 24, 2009 11:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
dboy
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» Obviously
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Obviously
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Obviously
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» What "leverage" is there in saying "no"?!? "No" is exactly what the other side wants to hear.
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Shouldn't be afraid to kill a bad bill
Posted by: kettleblack
Comments are closed-
Posted by: spiritof1877 on Nov 24, 2009 11:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This bill is a wolf dressed in sheep's clothing.
I wholeheartedly disagree with JHolland. His analysis ignores the millions of Americans who will be forced to purchase coverage. Obamacare is yet another upward redistribution of wealth. How are people like the condescending Mr. Holland so easily fooled?
The reason is simple- the politicians and the lobbyists who write these bills utilize a very subtle form of doublespeak and control the meme. For example they use the term "reform" and people believe it to mean change for the betterment of the people. What a total crock o'poo. There is not one single bill that either the House or the Senate will pass that will ultimately benefit the people. They have made this abundantly clear not only with their voting records, but also with the cynical bills they write and the names they give them.
If you think for one minute that the health care bills out there will be of benefit to anybody besides the corporations, you are living in the Land of the Lotus Eaters.
Got All That, Mr. Holland?
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» Income level?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» How is forcing you to buy insurance unaffordable when there are subsidies provided ?
Posted by: smc31569
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Posted by: DaBear on Nov 24, 2009 11:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I examine the quality of what's being afforded by the HC Reform Bills ponzi scheme, I can only conclude: When you need healthcare, which is worse, being handed a poisonous snake or a scorpion ?
That is LITERALLY where we working poor folk are gonna be at with this kind of "reform." Those workarounds that you see "helping" people won't actually because they're not designed with how the world works for us lowers in the first place.
I know lots of do-gooders don't wanna live with that, but it's the truth. It's our lived reality. This HC bill (Senate or House) are NOT help. At. All.
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» RE: Josh, here's the link (sorry, I forgot)
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Josh, here's the link (sorry, I forgot)
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Josh, here's the link (sorry, I forgot)
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Josh, here's the link (sorry, I forgot)
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Yes it IS worse than nothing
Posted by: guns4everyone
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Posted by: aahpat on Nov 24, 2009 11:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Another Question - illegals?
Posted by: kettleblack
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Posted by: greenferret on Nov 24, 2009 12:20 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tell your senators to support single-payer health care by co-sponsoring S. 703, the American Health Security Act.
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» Thanks for posting that link. Unfortunately all of my Congressmen/Senators belong to the Party of NO
Posted by: smc31569
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 24, 2009 12:51 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: NOTHING IS NOT BETTER FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTHING
Posted by: drone
» RE: NOTHING IS NOT BETTER FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTHING
Posted by: drone
» RE: NOTHING IS NOT BETTER FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTHING
Posted by: kettleblack
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mizobe on Nov 24, 2009 1:01 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've have health insurance coverage during times when I worked for an an employer that provided it. Never used it once! I would have rather been given that money to wisely invest as 'I' chose. Mathematically speaking, that way I would have the money to pay for any and all medical costs that I may accrue in the future no matter how catastrophic.
If we remove the profits made by the Health Insurance industry I would have no problem at all with paying an extra 3% in federal income tax that each American would have to pay to guarantee excellent health care for everyone. It would still be a significant savings when compared to what I would have to pay for private Insurance.
The Health Care reform that is being proposed is a scam and I won't support it, nor am I willing to be forced to 'buy' into it.
What we need is a non-profit Health Care co-op underwritten by OUR tax dollars and run by the people, for the people. The trillion dollar price tag of the proposed scam before congress is mostly profit for the evil insurance industry. 100% should be for actual health care!
I will never support any health care bill that feeds the greed and Avarice of private health insurance companies. It's time to sharpen up those Guillotines and get rid of the real 'terrorist' threats to our economic, health and political well being and to our civil and human rights.
Wake up! It's a sham and a scam and a sack over your head punch in the nose. I've read the bill. It's 2000 pages of more of the same.
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» If you READ the bill, the new co-op IS NOT FOR PROFIT and mandates that 85% of premiums be spent on
Posted by: smc31569
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Posted by: Hiroak on Nov 24, 2009 1:03 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This country is over, the dream is dead, the rich have won and the only answer is to end their rule by ending THEM. I just hope it won't be too hard on the old folks but I say let the battle begin.
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» Not over yet
Posted by: mizobe
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Posted by: jende on Nov 24, 2009 1:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Prinzowhales on Nov 24, 2009 3:37 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a Republic..."WE THE PEOPLE" are supposed to be running things here...and it is way past time that OUR government do what WE want it to do instead of serving the interests of the financiers.
There is no expertise needed for this problem. We do not need a 2000 page bill to address the problems of American health care payments...The problem is merely one of accounting and efficiency--we have a single payer plan...we get rid of the middle man and start promoting HEALTH instead of HEALTH CARE.
The financiers' mainstream media stage this as a debate between horrible alternatives after ruling the sensible option--single payer--out, and then frame the question as a pseudo-compromise in which they get what they want-- a captive privately insured nation with the government picking up the tab on those who can't pay and coercing everyone who doesn't want it...this promises to add tens of billions to their coffers.
Let's state the problem from the Progressive perspective: We will have single payer health insurance for everyone and get rid of the health insurance industry, or we can have the Demopublican pro-insurance industry alternatives. For me, there is no choice--let's make the health insurance industry disappear. Let them move their industry to China!!
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Posted by: drone on Nov 24, 2009 4:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of us here are aware that there has been a longstanding marginalization of the poor in the US, and a terrible marginalization of the poor who have received public assistance in its variety of forms that continues to this day.
One of the engines of this outcome was the result of the systematic insufficiency of the Great Society programs passed during the 60s, gutted, emaciated, and torn at by the pack of feudal vultures occupying the Congress. BY the time the masters were done with what were decent ideas, we had in place a system that, while arguably keeping people alive, did nothing to eliminate the poverty that was the target of the legislation.
It's been over 4 decades. And we haven't addressed the problem nationally since. Because, after all, the people getting handouts never seemed to rise much above their perpetual state in life.
This is often referred to as legislative sabotage, whereby a well-intentioned program is subverted in order to ensure its failure.
The price for us as a people has been steep. A large portion of Americans to this day view poverty as a defect in character (hey, they're getting help, and they're still sucking!). 4 decades and counting, and we're further from eliminating poverty than were when those bills were passed. And the result is overwhelmingly from both the insufficiency of the support as well as the bureaucratization of shame that was put in place in order to secure that meager bit of assistance.
I see the same tendency in this "healthcare" debate (which really is a debate about securing insurance). While Josh is right to point out that a certain amount of increase in accessibility will likely result from any passed bill, does this increase move us closer or further from the actual policy goal, which in this case, would presumably to decrease the amount of suffering due to lack of healthcare?
I think it moves us further away from it, for all the reasons everyone reading this stuff already knows. I think what we're trading is for increased access but *reduced* care, in the same way that past cash payments to the poor did nothing but perpetuate their very poverty.
Well have a lot of people with insurance that still can't go to the doctors because the costs out of pocket will be too high to do so, and those costs will increase as a result of having a hostage market forced to buy the product with virtually no competition that can drive costs down.
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Posted by: dealmeinfo5 on Nov 24, 2009 10:17 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
---------------------------------------
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Posted by: kogwonton on Nov 24, 2009 10:51 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Sunnydayz on Nov 24, 2009 11:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The entire reason this bill is BAD BAD BAD and should be scrapped is because it seeks to give substandard care while bleeding the tax purse dry. Too much money will continue to be siphoned off to profit rather than go to health care. Too many people will remain under insured or not covered at all and left with substandard care or no care.
Compromise and settling for less than desired might seem like a good idea, but it isnt in some cases and this is one of those cases.
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» RE: Concept of compromise being used against us
Posted by: kettleblack
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Posted by: boylal01 on Nov 24, 2009 11:24 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm fortunate to have many options as a federal employee. It's open enrollment and I'm going safer next year and paying a high premium which will at least cover my daughter as well despite her advanced age and provides more of a "wraparound" at higher price (he rcoverage is equal to family coverage for me and husband). My superstition indicates that this will mean we will all have good health next year!
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» Wow.. have NONE of you actually READ the bill? There IS an out-of-pocket CAP that INCLUDES premiums,
Posted by: smc31569
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Posted by: gilhowcan on Nov 25, 2009 7:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The madness of this whole process has proven how extremely weak our so-called free democracy is. Between the outrageous rules of Congress that allow for filibuster in the Senate, even in the face of the majorities that exist for the so-called Democrats in both Houses of that body whose election expressed the will of the people, we are witnessing an iceberg of non-government.
Add to that the weakness that has been displayed by Barack Obama ever since he was inaugurated, and the religious manipulation of the Supreme Court by its six-Catholic majority, and there is no argument against the reality that we, like the countries of the Middle East that we are foolishly trying to democratize, are headed instead for their theocracy--just a different but equally nasty brand.
Without a genuine public option or with Stupak's stupid and illegal anti-abortion amendment, without better regulation of the thieving health insurance and pharmaceutical companies, and with no regulation over the cheating of doctors and hospitals, this is not REform at all, it is CONform with the status quo.
As Congressman Alan Grayson of Florida wisely states, "Too big to fail is too big." "Too big to fail" was the wrong attitude toward the Big-3, and it is the wrong attitude toward the medical industry, toward all industries. This is not Bart Stupak's "Garden of Eden," this is planet earth where a lot of rules beyond the last six of the Ten Commandments--the fist four having absolutely nothing to do with our secular government--are needed simply because human beings are so filled with selfish greed and ready to screw everyone they can.
Note well the fact that the most needed product/service in human existence, the care of health, is the area most lacking in morals and ethics--and regulations to obtain and maintain the same.
What's the most needed reform to get rid of do-nothing, too expensive government? Term limits on every elective office in the land. Age limits, too. That will go a long way toward correcting the damage caused by an illiterate and apathetic electorate. Throw all federal judges under those term and age limits, also.
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Posted by: mizobe on Nov 25, 2009 1:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The CEOs and stockholders are at the top of the pyramid. Just under them are the sick people (liabilities) who's claims are actually paid after jumping through a myriad of legal hoops and denials.
At the bottom of the pyramid are the people who managed to stay healthy and uninjured (assets). They are the losers.
The more claims are actually denied the more money the people at the top receive. Even when a sick person has a legitimate claim it is in the best interest of the people at the top to continue litigation and denial of medical services with the sincere hope that the patient dies.
So let us see here..your health care insurance provider wants you to die! Naw, this isn't a conflict of interest!
There will never be true health care reform as long as there are 'for profit' Insurance companies allowed to operate.
Since I'm a healthy person and I lead a healthy lifestyle I guess that makes me the biggest 'loser' of all. So much for survival of the fittest.
As for all of you 'winners' who chose to over-eat, had unprotected sex and got AIDs or became infected with a fetus...forgive me, it's all my fault and of course I'll pay for it...NOT!
Is it just me or does this whole scheme seem just a bit immoral, unfair and twisted?
Well, I'm off to buy a my weekly lotto ticket. Now there's a Ponzi scheme that's actually pretty fair.
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Posted by: ranger1 on Nov 26, 2009 12:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I am saying is even with this bill passing we all get screwed and more indentured to the corporate elite. Without a firm industrial and trade policy the 8% surcharge on employers will create even more incentives for them to move out of the country. That will be leaving still more folks without insurance and raising my 15+% currently in property taxes going for my county hospital emergency services for the folks this bill will not cover. Lets deep 6 this bill and place the single payer system back on the table. Why, it SAVES money over 10 years almost equal to the COSTS that are projected under the Pelosi/Read bills.
If we can't get it I recommend that each progressive lobby their state legislatures/ corporation bureau to prohibit health care hospitals and big pharma from operating unless they are not for profit corporations and not for profit and set the salaries of the administrators.
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Posted by: smf1403 on Nov 30, 2009 7:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua, you're being a "corporate whore" as you state, has EVERYTHING to do with "health-care legislation".
It became apparent early on in the "great debate" over health care "reform" that it is all about "corporate whorism".
Your advocating this faux display of concern for Americans without health care, by Obama and Congress is "corporate whorism".
Mandating health "insurance" and leaving out coverage for ALL people, is benefiting corporations, not the people.
ONLY single-payer healthcare for all, covers all people.
Are you proposing that you or anyone else has the moral right to decide who lives and who dies, who gets health care and who does not?
YOUR admission to being a "corporate whore" is telling, as you are writing for an assumed "progressive" news source.
OR is Alternet a faux "progressive" news source?
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Posted by: Beadmaster on Nov 30, 2009 9:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then we've got formerly uninsured people and under-insured people who can't afford premiums. Maybe we decide that people with still higher incomes can no longer afford insurance. So then we subsidize more. Or maybe not...maybe we do just the opposite.
How long is it before insurance companies are charging $10k per person per month? How long will it be before we can't afford to subsidize such outrageous demands? Then what? Do we decide to drop subsidizing altogether? Do we subsidize it for people of extremely low income only? (This is how certain things work now. If you need assistance paying your utility bills, for instance, your income must be so low, you have to be on the verge of homelessness to get assistance. So do we ultimately wait until people are on the verge of homelessness to give them health insurance subsidies?)
When will the extortion of our lives in exchange for a modicum of health care end? I can make a prediction right now of where this is going to lead. Subsidies will be diminished, leaving huge numbers of people to pay for mandatory health insurance they can't afford. The amount of income which will be needed to qualify for subsidies will be so low, only a very few will qualify. And the amount of those subsidies won't even make a dent for those who do.
The rest will take the tax penalty. Which, after all, will likely be a hell of a lot less expensive than health insurance. I'm guessing people will save thousands per year this way. Instead of 50 million uninsured, we'll probably break out of 8 digits and end up in the 9 digit area...meaning hundreds of millions uninsured, rather than "mere" tens of millions. So then what do we do? Wait until the number reaches 100M before we address health care again? 150M? 200M? Do we wait until most of our citizens uninsured?
Thus, nothing will be resolved with this bill. Oh, temporarily, it will...and it will look good on paper. Wow, 20 million uninsured now insured! Subsidies paid for those who can't afford it. What? Now the insurance companies aren't happy, so they'll be charging more? What, people can't afford it? Poor, poor insurance companies. Screw the people. We can't afford to pay subsidies to the lazy poor so they can sit around on their asses and get "free" health care (never mind that they likely work 2-3 jobs that don't pay enough to put food on the table), so let them pay their own bills. It's American, damn it. Not to mention how American it is for the CEOs of health insurance companies to continue to make millions per year...we have to turn that into billions.
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Posted by: djnoll on Nov 30, 2009 10:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have insurance companies that will have limited new regulations put in place; an enforced consumer marketplace (nothing free market about it!); a 2.5% fine collected by IRS for those who do not get insurance; and a variety of other issues that only seem to benefit insurance companies and health care industry corporations at the expense of taxpayers and the elderly. And yet the agency or agencies that will be tasked with overseeing this disaster will be making up their own enforcement and administrative regulations as they go along. Now considering how our government is currently a swinging door between regulated industries and those who regulate them (look at DoD and Treasury for example), just how do you see this new health care reform actually playing out?
I can tell you what I see: former insurance and health industry executives and managers getting hired for "their expertise" to run these new agencies. They will run them in the same way that they always do in DC - to the benefit of their former employers and the detriment of the American citizen. This bill is so full of loopholes that you would have to be blind not to see this.
Something is better than nothing has been the argument for too long in DC and as a result we have destroyed our educational system, our food supply system, our environment, and just about everything in this nation except the military/industrial complex (although we have certainly destroyed our young service people and seriously depleted their numbers.) I would like to suggest that we not "just settle" for something now, but that we actually get it right the first time out of the gate.
All too often, the tweaking that everyone talks about never happens because Congressional make-up changes every 2 years, and since this bill is not due to even be implemented until at least 2013, you could have at least 2 changes in power within that time that could leave this disaster waiting to happen in place untouched while the industries that are suppose to be regulated work very hard to reap higher profits and do more harm in those 4 years.
This bill is worse than nothing, Joshua, because it is poorly thought out, heavily watered down, and so compromised by corporate and religious influence that it is nothing more than pablum and I think America has had enough pablum in its legislation. Either we do it right the first time, or we leave it alone and work to develop better legislation on the state level, and outside of DC's control, that actually helps all Americans, not just corporate Americans.
Some states have already done so successfully, so this is not outside of the realm of possibility. Perhaps it is time for us to consider that in some areas, states might actually be the better place for legislation than the one-size fits all legislation in DC.
Let DC regulate the insurance industry heavily since they cross state lines and fine them heavily when they fail to comply, but let the states set up health care reform within their states to best meet the needs of their individual citizenry. Federal regulation isn't always the answer.
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Posted by: eridani on Nov 30, 2009 8:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't much appreciate being put into the disposable human garbage category just so the Dems can say they passed something. If they want to pass something, just pull out the funding for community clinics and more primary care doctors and pass that stuff separately.
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» What part of the word SUBSIDY is it that you don't understand ?
Posted by: smc31569
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Posted by: jimyyu on Nov 30, 2009 10:31 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
======www.cougarlure.com=====,and it is OK.you will enjoy yourself as much as possible.there is a
convenient way "cougarlure.com"to make you meet some rich women who is rich and alone to go with
you.just cool.BE FREE
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Posted by: weightman on Dec 9, 2009 11:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, This Health Care Bill Really is Worse Than Nothing
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Posted by: bonapartist on Nov 24, 2009 1:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Significant portion of the Left cannot stomach it despite belonging, at least in theory, to Obama's supporters. The rift is widening but instead of placating the base the spin machine is on the job.
It also seems that authors of articles such as this like to defend their writings so I am not going to be surprised if I get a reply from Mr. Holland.
My observation is that such replies usually include one or more of the following: reference to author's superior wisdom / knowledge (I read the 2000 pages bill and you didn't), focus on isolated segments while ignoring the bigger picture (it would provide some healthcare for the poor) and playing on people's feelings (if you don't support it you are insensitive to the plight of the poor).
Although it is hardly surprising as Obama is aiming for a second term and two wars, bailout for the rich and stimulus are hardly bright spots. Healthcare, if properly packed and served, might do the trick.
Fire when ready.
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» RE: Another one? Yeah, OBAMA'S health care plan?
Posted by: Beck
» Actually, Beck
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» JOSHUA STATES "Yeah, I'm a corporate whore, OK, great. What's that got to do with health-care legisl
Posted by: smf1403
» Half a loaf is better than none, granny used to say
Posted by: Sojourner
» No, in this case half a loaf is actually less than nothing
Posted by: guns4everyone
» RE: No, in this case half a loaf is actually less than nothing
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Stupak
Posted by: Witness
» RE: Stupak
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Another one?
Posted by: nononsense
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lefty010 on Nov 24, 2009 2:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And why on earth should any person in the richest country on the entire planet have to go without health insurance for any reason?
How about diverting some of the BILLIONS of dollars a month that are being stuffed into the RAT HOLES of Afghanistan/Iraq/Pakistan toward covering everyone with THE BEST health care rather than killing brown people on the other side of the planet?
Oh I know...it's a weird, wacky idea but not nearly as insane as the endless war and profit-before-people mentality of those in power.
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» RE: Yeah but...
Posted by: HoldmAccountable
» I know it's complex
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: I know it's complex
Posted by: peacefullaim1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: noalternative on Nov 24, 2009 2:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Nov 24, 2009 3:15 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"No" is "No" regardless of the excuse.
And if you are going to call yourself a 'progressive' at least understand the concept.
It ain't magic friends.
To "Imagine" is easy. To Achieve is not.
Pass the Damn bill and Tweek it after that!
Otherwise '10 and '12 will be wins for 3rd party candidates.
Conserva Dems pull your panties out of your asses and Lefties find a bucket of water, pass this healthcare bill or get caught in the same tarpit as the Neo Cons.
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» RE: So the Horse is 'Common'
Posted by: December5
» RE: Another Two Horse Race
Posted by: kettleblack
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Perry Logan on Nov 24, 2009 3:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm very much of the view that Obama is an unmitigated catastrophe for the Democratic Party. It's quite unnerving how many progressives voted for this most right-wing of Democrats.
My prayer: let Obama be a One-Termer.
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» RE: A rhetorical question if there ever was one
Posted by: HoldmAccountable
» Strange inclusion
Posted by: Joshua Holland
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tom Degan on Nov 24, 2009 3:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We'll live to fight another day.
http://www.tomdegan.blogspot.com
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
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» RE: Health Care and Woe
Posted by: wbblack
» You're absolutely right
Posted by: Tom Degan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: eridani on Nov 24, 2009 4:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The core of the bill is pure unmitigated crap. It is basically mandated overpriced underinsurance. The four levels offered on the exchange reflect the values of sociopaths--namely that if you have money you deserve good health care, and if you don't you are disposable human garbage.
The lowest level is only marginally better than really cheap and crappy catastrophic coverage that depletes your bank account and makes it much harder to keep paying for ongoing care. And THAT is the only level eligible for subsidies. What good is a subsidy if the useless parasites don't have to pay for actual care unless they feel like it?
Insurance companies still dictate who your doctor can be, can still deny claims at will, and still make getting anything out of them a royal pain in the ass that amounts to a demanding part time job. And they can still refuse to insure some people with pre-existing conditions--it just won't be called that. Ever not paid medical bills because you didn't have the money? You can still be denied because of your bad credit record.
IF this bill passes, it means electoral defeat for Dems, as mostly people will not notice anything but costs continuing to go through the roof. But it is still possible to salvage something--just pull out the useful parts of the bill and pass them separately. That will deny the Repubs a neenerneenerneener moment.
Each of the following could be separate bills.
1CREATES NEW, VOLUNTARY, PUBLIC LONG-TERM CARE INSURANCE PROGRAM—Creates a long-term care insurance program to be financed by voluntary payroll deductions to provide benefits to adults who become functionally disabled.
COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTERS—Increases funding for Community Health Centers to allow for a doubling of the number of patients seen by the centers over the next 5 years.
INCREASING NUMBER OF PRIMARY CARE DOCTORS — Provides new investment in training programs to increase the number of primary care doctors, nurses, and public health professionals.
As for HELP FOR EARLY RETIREES—Creates a $10 billon fund to finance a temporary reinsurance program to help offset the costs of expensive health claims for employers that provide health benefits for retirees age 55-64.
This is utterly useless to retirees with no access to such benefits. Put the $10 billion into Medicare, and allow retirees in this age group to join, as Senator Rockefeller has already proposed. Direct benefits to retirees should trump benefits to employers.
Same for IMMEDIATE HELP FOR THE UNINSURED UNTIL EXCHANGE IS AVAILABLE (INTERIM HIGH-RISK POOL) — Creates a temporary insurance program until the Exchange is available for individuals who have been uninsured for several months or have been denied a policy because of pre-existing conditions.
This is a totally useless overpriced abortion, given that it would probably be like what high risk pools at the state level are now. Just let high risk people into Medicare early like we do with disabled people. Put the subsidy money into Medicare to take care of the extra expense.
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» Sorry, but actually it does, to a significant extent.
Posted by: mjabele
» So why are public hospitals undergoing massive funding cuts?
Posted by: eridani
» I wouldn't be cheering for health care reform failure....
Posted by: CatDad
» Wrong--success means handing over control to insurance giants
Posted by: eridani
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SufiLizard on Nov 24, 2009 4:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This will "prove" in conventional wisdom that "liberal" reform doesn't work, so we'll be stuck with "conservative" reform for at least a generation.
This will cost many more lives in the U.S. and across the globe.
As frustrated as I am with the Obama Administration, it is still way better than the alternative. Just think where we would be right now if McCain and Palin has been sworn in this past January? How many more wars would we be involved with? How much worse would our economy be? Would we even be talking about health care reform, let alone a public option?
That being said, I think we're looking at two possibilities with health care. We either fail to pass anything at all, which leaves many Americans in the same horrible shape they're in today, with even more suffering as our system continues to implode. And Democrats will pay in 2010 and probably 2012.
The other possibility is that Democrats pass a really crappy bill that strengthens the position of corporate profiteers in our health care system, proves disastrous for most Americans and Democrats will pay even more dearly in 2010, 2012 and beyond.
Barring some miracle, I think Democrats, and the country, are looking at a major lose-lose situation. Thanks to spinlessness in the caucus in dealing with Blue Dogs and ConservaDems.
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Posted by: franklyspanking on Nov 24, 2009 5:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Expansion of some form of coverage to a few percents of Americans isn't worth the train wreck it would bring on the rest of us, and the cost of said train wreck. 'At what cost?' is a reasonable metric to most folks who focus on quality and affordability of health care for 300,000,000 Americans, not just the 15,000,000 that many folks seem to view as their personal pets and/or crusade.
Personally, I would rather be taxed for the cost of covering the 15,000,000 or 20,000,000 indigent who can't afford health insurance than to see Obama's and his Congresscritters' mandates that private citizens purchase anything related to their personal medical decisions.
Then again, I'm a pro-choice advocate, which is an awfully unpopular position amongst folks who ushered in our new strong-father political machine in D.C. land.
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» RE: easoning is important.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: easoning is important.
Posted by: wbblack
» English comprehension.
Posted by: franklyspanking
» Single Payer saves lives and money...right away.
Posted by: weightman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Nov 24, 2009 5:17 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The one virtue I do see in getting a bill passed, no matter how weak and compromised, is that it is apt to give government a financial interest in the conduct of the insurance industry. Just as the co-pays were supposedly introduced to give medical consumers some reason to scream about over-charges, maybe having to pay more of the bills will make government sit up and take notice. This will be especially true if government becomes the insurer of last resort, responsible for only the most costly cases.
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Posted by: Beck on Nov 24, 2009 5:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Conversation
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: I dunno, IS the bill worse than nothing? Are people afraid to just declare an opinion?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
Comments are closed-
Posted by: weightman on Nov 24, 2009 5:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bad legislation fails to adequately redress whatever grievance or controversy which initiated the call for reform. And in doing so, entrenches into government organizational structure, procedures, protocols, and regulations designed to support the failures of bad legislation. And when the grievances or controversies leading to the call for reform inevitably return, the organizational structure, procedures, protocols, and regulations designed to support the failures must be overcome as well as the continued injustice perpetuated by bad legislation.
For example: Gun control legislation. Continuous compromise and capitulation leading to enforcement, when not left to private industry, being underfunded, ignored, and woefully inadequate to meet the demands of the electorate. Decade after decade after decade.
The insurance industry bailout being foisted upon the American people as healthcare reform is bad legislation. The crumbs tossed by the neoliberal despots serve only to aid in the continuing manufacture of consent for legislation designed to perpetuate the discrimination and corruption which lines their pockets, and those of their advocates.
From the beginning, the healthcare debate has been one-sided. The neoliberals and their advocates created the bipartisan debate, denying the validity of any idea, like Single Payer, not accepted into the predetermined framework of debate. True comprehensive healthcare reform was excluded in favor of sustaining an industry rationing healthcare based on economic class, race, gender and age. All for the sake of politics, with no regard for the tragedy their actions serve to perpetuate. Their actions have left the public sadly misinformed as to the social justice inherit in true reform, but as to the economic benefits as well.
Single Payer saves lives. Single Payer saves money. The only thing it doesn't do is perpetuate the greed and corruption found in our current healthcare system.
The only real answer for true comprehensive healthcare reform always has been, and always will be, universal coverage. One group. One plan. One payer. Medicare for all. Single Payer.
For those wishing to be informed, rather than preached to by state clergy:
Talking points on HR 3962 with some comparisons to the Senate (Reid) bill in bold. By Ida Hellander, MD
Comparing the House and the Senate Health Care Proposals from the New York Times
Side-by-Side Comparison of Major Health Care Reform Proposals from The Kaiser Family Foundation (which will be updated to reflect current health insurance legislation)
Kill the Bill
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» Bad legislation is worse than no legislation.
Posted by: jooljetkmae
Comments are closed-
Posted by: drricklippin on Nov 24, 2009 6:06 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I say the stars of moral and economic imperatives have finally aligned on this issue
To see nothing passed now would be very demoralizing
But I also contend we ALL are fed up with all that is wrong with our political process from campaign and election reform to the painfully slow legislation process including the filibuster provision nonsense
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: Sorry - You're not getting "health care reform"
Posted by: chetdude
» RE: Sorry - chetude....
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Sorry - I am for SOMETHING
Posted by: DaBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wbblack on Nov 24, 2009 6:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ps. I understand if you prefer not to answer. I like a lot of what you write about labor issues, didn't want to be completely negative.
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» Happy to discuss
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: wbblack
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: wbblack
» Not sure on what we actually disagree
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» "the format of posting on websites brings out my obnoxious side" Don't feel bad, it's universal
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: Happy to discuss
Posted by: peacefullaim1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FAITHCARR on Nov 24, 2009 6:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's your salmonella sandwich -- eat it and be grateful-- We'll "fix" it later -- Later-Later-Later
I think it is just about late enough
I'm staying home on election day --
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» RE: As Always the refrain will be
Posted by: lclark
Comments are closed-
Posted by: americansheep on Nov 24, 2009 7:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: apathetic consumer zombie on Nov 24, 2009 7:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you want to talk about privileging ideology, look at the republicans and blue dogs who refuse to support legislation because it "hinders the free market" or "is not deficit-neutral".
I disagree with the frame of the titular question. Of course anything that expands coverage a little and saves lives is better than nothing. However, continuing to water-down the legislation to get a few more votes of those blue dogs or her royal highness Olympia Snowe is essentially privileging their ideology over the extra lives that would have been saved if we had a robust public option, or an amendment that allowed for single-payer.
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Posted by: Kimberly on Nov 24, 2009 8:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When he spoke about Citizens reporting fraud and abuse, he differed them to the Provider 'Offender' who is abusing them to resolve the complaint, which Apparently, is not resolving fraud and abuse issues - this is ( intimidation HHS|HMO T42CFR417.1 ) PROCESS is called ' alternate dispute resolution ', or the 'Managed Care Government Grievance Procedure'. This white collar crime - 'Administrative Procedure', has been used since 1998 to defraud Federally Entitled COVERED Individuals and Federal Health Care Programs with respect to T42CFR409.33 Post Hospital Extended Care Service Claims. It is an HHS OIG Anti-Dumping and Anti-Kickback Violation as well as a 1996 HCFA HIPAA Violation.
DETERMINING RIGHTS SSA 1128B
OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT - OPM Sec. 900.401, Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 Authority: Sec. 602, 78 Stat. 252 (42 U.S.C. 2000d-1). Source: 38 FR 17920, July 5, 1973 - A PERSON [ Entitled Individual ] SHALL NOT BE DENIED [ HHS|HMO T42CFR417.1 grievance procedure - alternate dispute resolution T18CFR242CRIME ] THE BENEFITS OF or be otherwise subjected to discrimination under a program ( OPM FEHB Health Insurance Program ) or activity receiving Federal financial assistance from OPM
The Anti-Dumping Statute is Enforced [ 1998 still pending T18CFR371CRIME - Alternate Dispute Resolution T18CFR1518CRIME ] Jointly by the Health Care Financing Administration ( HCFA ) and the Office of Inspector General ( OIG ) of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). Health Care Finance Administration (HCFA), has JURISDICTION over the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) of 1996
TITLE 42--PUBLIC HEALTH CHAPTER IV-[ HCFA ]-HEALTH CARE FINANCING ADMINISTRATION, [ HHS ] DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES PART 409-- HOSPITAL INSURANCE BENEFITS --Table of Contents Subpart D-[ Federal ]-Requirements for Coverage of Post-hospital SNF [ NURSING FACILITY ] Care Sec. 409.33 Examples of skilled nursing [ Medically Necessary ] and rehabilitation services. ~~ To DENY this SERVICE [ HHS|HMO T42CFR417.1 grievance procedure|Alternate Dispute Resolution - denial of Covered T42CFR409.33 Claims T42CFR438.704 adverse determination ], is called an Anti-Dumping Violation
The mission of the Office of DISPUTE RESOLUTION [ T18CFR371CRIME - HHS|HMO T42CFR417.1 Alternate Dispute Resolution 42CFR438.704 grievance procedure - 1996 HIPAA Violation ]
.......... is to promote and facilitate the broad and effective use of Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) processes BY the Department of Justice and throughout the Executive Branch of the federal government. Please note that the Office of Dispute Resolution represents, and is working on behalf of, the Department of Justice and the United States in matters being handled by the federal government.
Antitrust Enforcement and the Consumer
Many CONSUMERS have Never heard of ANTI TRUST LAWS, but when these laws are effectively and responsibly Enforced, they can Save consumers [ Lives 42CFR438.704 ] millions and even BILLIONS of dollars a year in illegal [ HHS|HMO T42CFR417.1 KICKBACK ] overcharges.
Most states have antitrust laws, and so does the federal government. Essentially, these laws PROHIBIT BUSINESS PRACTICES that unreasonably Deprive consumers - INDIVIDUALS, of the Benefits [ HHS|HMO T42CFR417.1 grievance procedure - systematic denial of Existing Federal FEHB|HMO T42CFR409.33 Post-Hospital Extended Care Services, to force illegal HCFA State OFIS Medicaid Kickback T42CFR409.33 conversion ] of competition, RESULTING in higher prices for inferior products and services Joel I. Klein Assistant Attorney General Antitrust Division
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Posted by: thicky on Nov 24, 2009 8:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And while this reform may provide marginally more affordable health insurance it will not provide more affordable health care coverage. The present bills will allow insurance companies to provide less coverage at higher deductibles. Even now most bankruptcies are caused by health care costs not covered by the insurance people already have. How many more people will die because of weakened health insurance coverage?
Unlike the Democratic Party shills who believe their re-election depends on passing anything that has the phrase "health care reform" on it, I want to save all 45,000 people per year who die from lack of health insurance and not only the lucky few who may be helped by the crumbs in the present health care bills.
As for the argument--"trust us, pass this piece of shit bill now and we will IMPROVE it later"--it is laughable. Not only will this bill entrench for-profit health insurance companies in the health care system(private for-profit health insurance companies are a 20th century industry that is an anachronism in the 21st century), it is just as likely that nothing will be done to improve this health care/insurance legislation in the future and even more likely that the scumbags in congress will legislate changes that will make it WORSE: they will weaken or eliminate anything that benefits the consumers and strengthen the mandates and increase the subsidies for health insurance company profits.
Anything that mandates and subsidizes health insurance company profits is a fraud and much much worse than nothing.
Let this fail, elect pro-single-payer candidates in 2010, and give us single-payer health insurance(or at least reform with a strong public option)in 2011 that will save all 45,000 people by 2013.
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Posted by: lclark on Nov 24, 2009 8:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its not healthcare reform but Corporate welfare. We're only arguing over how much.
For example:
"School Based Health Clinics: The bill includes funding for School Based Health Clinics that will include subjective psychiatric mental health screening (called mental health assessments) of children, and 'referral to a continuum of services including emergency psychiatric care, community support programs, inpatient care, and outpatient programs' as part of their 'comprehensive primary health services.' This is a direct feeder line for the psycho/pharmaceutical industry directly into our schools. -Section 2511, Page 1352"
Above is a means to get more kids on Ritalin.
The bill is full of these obsenities.
Trash it and look to the various healthcare plans in other countries.
Before Dobbs was removed from the air he did a good series on healthcare plans in various countries. From that I gathered:
-a larger % of our GNP already goes to healthcare than other countries.
-we have a fewer doctors for the population.
-healthcare is less accessible.
Enough of this "sausage-making" for the corporations.
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Posted by: kettleblack on Nov 24, 2009 9:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, do I understand this right? There will be more poor shuffled into Medicaid. And, they are taking money from Medicare doctors to pay for all these additional people.
So, will there be fewer Medicare doctors, and more patients?
Please, will someone clarify this for me?
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» RE: The New Math is puzzling to seniors like me
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Smart Seniors Know Better
Posted by: gnat
» RE: The New Math is puzzling to seniors like me
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Math and REAL FACTS Are Important
Posted by: gnat
» RE: Math and REAL FACTS Are Important
Posted by: kettleblack
» RE: Math and REAL FACTS Are Important
Posted by: gnat
» RE: Math and REAL FACTS Are Important
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Lying with Numbers
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Numbers Tell the Story For All Business
Posted by: gnat
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Gravitas on Nov 24, 2009 10:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In one version of the bill, they allowed employers to charge double amounts of "overweight" employees' contributions. That is RIDICULOUS! Over 1/2 of fat people have NO increased risk of disease. As a healthy fat person who hasn't had a medical claim in over a decade why should I be forced by law to pay double or risk going to prison when I have lower costs??? If they are going to be draconian, those who get charged double should be the costliest employees, not those who are put in dubious risk categories by bad science. Of course the real reason is to provide a boon to pharma and the weight loss industry which will again capitalize on dangerous weight loss products that drive up costs even further.
I agree with the Dr. I think she called it right. And if the provisions I mentioned above do go into effect, pharma, big insurance, and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce who supports these discriminatory provisions better keep a close on on their backs!!!
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» Silly, ridiculous lies
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Silly, ridiculous lies
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Silly, ridiculous lies
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Hmmm...gotta agree with Dabear here
Posted by: lefty010
» Upon rereading the comments...
Posted by: lefty010
» RE: Silly, ridiculous lies - Trust your Government & the IRS
Posted by: kettleblack
» Funny spin
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Not defending the status quo - Single Payer for ALL!
Posted by: kettleblack
» So how do you think they do it in Europe? You think they don't "force" people to be taxed?!?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: So how do you think they do it in Europe? You think they don't "force" people to be taxed?!?
Posted by: DaBear
» Most European countries don't have USP...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: So how do you think they do it in Europe? You think they don't "force" people to be taxed?!?
Posted by: countingdaisies
» Have to wonder whether that Canadian was employed...
Posted by: mjabele
» Isn't "healthy fat person" an oxymoron ? There is no such thing.
Posted by: smc31569
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chetdude on Nov 24, 2009 10:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
EVERY OTHER rich nation decided that every person residing in their country deserves access to quality health care (for whatever moral or rational reasons they chose) and then found a way to do it.
In contrast, USAmerica can't even make the simple statement that "people deserve access to quality Health Care."
Those competing bills in the Corporate-Funded Congress, both competing in the race toward the "bottom", as Corporate-funded USAmerican legislation always does, are convoluted but pristine examples of the basic greed and hypocrisy that drives the USAmerican domestic and foreign political process.
But, go ahead and pass them...who gives a shit?
The revolutionary in me knows that if they pass they will ratchet up the pain level and costs of USAmerican Sick Care a few more notches. This may be the last straw when combined with peak oil, catastrophic climate change and the collapse of the ridiculous Ponzi scheme mislabeled as an "economy", we will finally have the incentive to move past it all -- secede from the dominator hierarchy so to speak.
So, the bills are NOT worth passing if you're interested in actually implementing Universal, Affordable Health Care but they'll definitely help bring blood in the streets.
Up the Revolution!
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» RE: Why is the USAmerican Empire so fataly flawed?
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Prinzowhales on Nov 24, 2009 10:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These creatures are contemptible!!!
Single payer plan, Now! Private health insurance can go to the dust bin of history along with the banking industry.
DOWN WITH THE DEMOPUBLICAN REGIME!...THE ARSE-LICKING DOGS OF THE HEALTH INSURANCE FRAUDSTERS!! TROOPS HOME NOW!!
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Posted by: roy f on Nov 24, 2009 10:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And because of the penalties for not having insurance, the insurance companies will be able to raise their premiums even more than that, knowing that they have a captive audience, so to speak.
And who would be paying for those subsidies, anyway? How likely is it that that tax on the rich in the House bill will survive in the final bill? Most likely, ordinary people will be doing the paying, as usual. So we will have a giant pump sucking money from ordinary people and giving it to the insurance companies, on top of everything else that already redistributes wealth upward.
Once the insurance companies have even more money, they will be able to use it to bribe our politicians even more, and bombard the mass media with their advertising propaganda even more, and give the corrupt candidates who support them even more campaign contributions to use to buy ads on TV, so that idiots who vote whatever ways their TVs tell them to will vote them into office even more, making real reform even more difficult to achieve.
Doctors used to use leeches in medical care, and we still do, only now they are insurance companies instead of annelid worms.
Let this bill die, and the fascist Democrats along with it. The fascist Republicans are already self-destructing. When voters become totally fed up with both those parties, let them not stay home, even if they think a 3rd party candidate will never win, but get off their asses and and vote SOCIALIST anyway. When enough people do that, they WILL win. Even more important, since we do not live in a democracy, let us take to the streets and shut down the country until we get what we want, as they seem to do in every country but ours.
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Posted by: tommy_slothrop on Nov 24, 2009 11:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The second -- almost as important as the first -- was getting away from employer-based health insurance so that people could begin to reduce the part that corporations played in their lives and employers could hire people without taking on a lot of administrative overhead for providing health insurance. I was hoping that this could lead to reduced worktime instead of "creating jobs" by making product we'd be better off without.
Really, what I was hoping for was a single-payer system. After Obama started out by eliminating the single-payer option because "we already have this employer-based system in place" I pretty much lost interest in the whole debate.
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Posted by: Dboy on Nov 24, 2009 11:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
dboy
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» Obviously
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Obviously
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Obviously
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» What "leverage" is there in saying "no"?!? "No" is exactly what the other side wants to hear.
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Shouldn't be afraid to kill a bad bill
Posted by: kettleblack
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Posted by: spiritof1877 on Nov 24, 2009 11:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This bill is a wolf dressed in sheep's clothing.
I wholeheartedly disagree with JHolland. His analysis ignores the millions of Americans who will be forced to purchase coverage. Obamacare is yet another upward redistribution of wealth. How are people like the condescending Mr. Holland so easily fooled?
The reason is simple- the politicians and the lobbyists who write these bills utilize a very subtle form of doublespeak and control the meme. For example they use the term "reform" and people believe it to mean change for the betterment of the people. What a total crock o'poo. There is not one single bill that either the House or the Senate will pass that will ultimately benefit the people. They have made this abundantly clear not only with their voting records, but also with the cynical bills they write and the names they give them.
If you think for one minute that the health care bills out there will be of benefit to anybody besides the corporations, you are living in the Land of the Lotus Eaters.
Got All That, Mr. Holland?
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» Income level?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» How is forcing you to buy insurance unaffordable when there are subsidies provided ?
Posted by: smc31569
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Posted by: DaBear on Nov 24, 2009 11:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I examine the quality of what's being afforded by the HC Reform Bills ponzi scheme, I can only conclude: When you need healthcare, which is worse, being handed a poisonous snake or a scorpion ?
That is LITERALLY where we working poor folk are gonna be at with this kind of "reform." Those workarounds that you see "helping" people won't actually because they're not designed with how the world works for us lowers in the first place.
I know lots of do-gooders don't wanna live with that, but it's the truth. It's our lived reality. This HC bill (Senate or House) are NOT help. At. All.
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» RE: Josh, here's the link (sorry, I forgot)
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Josh, here's the link (sorry, I forgot)
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Josh, here's the link (sorry, I forgot)
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Josh, here's the link (sorry, I forgot)
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Yes it IS worse than nothing
Posted by: guns4everyone
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Posted by: aahpat on Nov 24, 2009 11:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Another Question - illegals?
Posted by: kettleblack
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Posted by: greenferret on Nov 24, 2009 12:20 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tell your senators to support single-payer health care by co-sponsoring S. 703, the American Health Security Act.
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» Thanks for posting that link. Unfortunately all of my Congressmen/Senators belong to the Party of NO
Posted by: smc31569
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 24, 2009 12:51 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: NOTHING IS NOT BETTER FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTHING
Posted by: drone
» RE: NOTHING IS NOT BETTER FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTHING
Posted by: drone
» RE: NOTHING IS NOT BETTER FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTHING
Posted by: kettleblack
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Posted by: mizobe on Nov 24, 2009 1:01 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've have health insurance coverage during times when I worked for an an employer that provided it. Never used it once! I would have rather been given that money to wisely invest as 'I' chose. Mathematically speaking, that way I would have the money to pay for any and all medical costs that I may accrue in the future no matter how catastrophic.
If we remove the profits made by the Health Insurance industry I would have no problem at all with paying an extra 3% in federal income tax that each American would have to pay to guarantee excellent health care for everyone. It would still be a significant savings when compared to what I would have to pay for private Insurance.
The Health Care reform that is being proposed is a scam and I won't support it, nor am I willing to be forced to 'buy' into it.
What we need is a non-profit Health Care co-op underwritten by OUR tax dollars and run by the people, for the people. The trillion dollar price tag of the proposed scam before congress is mostly profit for the evil insurance industry. 100% should be for actual health care!
I will never support any health care bill that feeds the greed and Avarice of private health insurance companies. It's time to sharpen up those Guillotines and get rid of the real 'terrorist' threats to our economic, health and political well being and to our civil and human rights.
Wake up! It's a sham and a scam and a sack over your head punch in the nose. I've read the bill. It's 2000 pages of more of the same.
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» If you READ the bill, the new co-op IS NOT FOR PROFIT and mandates that 85% of premiums be spent on
Posted by: smc31569
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Posted by: Hiroak on Nov 24, 2009 1:03 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This country is over, the dream is dead, the rich have won and the only answer is to end their rule by ending THEM. I just hope it won't be too hard on the old folks but I say let the battle begin.
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» Not over yet
Posted by: mizobe
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Posted by: jende on Nov 24, 2009 1:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Prinzowhales on Nov 24, 2009 3:37 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a Republic..."WE THE PEOPLE" are supposed to be running things here...and it is way past time that OUR government do what WE want it to do instead of serving the interests of the financiers.
There is no expertise needed for this problem. We do not need a 2000 page bill to address the problems of American health care payments...The problem is merely one of accounting and efficiency--we have a single payer plan...we get rid of the middle man and start promoting HEALTH instead of HEALTH CARE.
The financiers' mainstream media stage this as a debate between horrible alternatives after ruling the sensible option--single payer--out, and then frame the question as a pseudo-compromise in which they get what they want-- a captive privately insured nation with the government picking up the tab on those who can't pay and coercing everyone who doesn't want it...this promises to add tens of billions to their coffers.
Let's state the problem from the Progressive perspective: We will have single payer health insurance for everyone and get rid of the health insurance industry, or we can have the Demopublican pro-insurance industry alternatives. For me, there is no choice--let's make the health insurance industry disappear. Let them move their industry to China!!
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Posted by: drone on Nov 24, 2009 4:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of us here are aware that there has been a longstanding marginalization of the poor in the US, and a terrible marginalization of the poor who have received public assistance in its variety of forms that continues to this day.
One of the engines of this outcome was the result of the systematic insufficiency of the Great Society programs passed during the 60s, gutted, emaciated, and torn at by the pack of feudal vultures occupying the Congress. BY the time the masters were done with what were decent ideas, we had in place a system that, while arguably keeping people alive, did nothing to eliminate the poverty that was the target of the legislation.
It's been over 4 decades. And we haven't addressed the problem nationally since. Because, after all, the people getting handouts never seemed to rise much above their perpetual state in life.
This is often referred to as legislative sabotage, whereby a well-intentioned program is subverted in order to ensure its failure.
The price for us as a people has been steep. A large portion of Americans to this day view poverty as a defect in character (hey, they're getting help, and they're still sucking!). 4 decades and counting, and we're further from eliminating poverty than were when those bills were passed. And the result is overwhelmingly from both the insufficiency of the support as well as the bureaucratization of shame that was put in place in order to secure that meager bit of assistance.
I see the same tendency in this "healthcare" debate (which really is a debate about securing insurance). While Josh is right to point out that a certain amount of increase in accessibility will likely result from any passed bill, does this increase move us closer or further from the actual policy goal, which in this case, would presumably to decrease the amount of suffering due to lack of healthcare?
I think it moves us further away from it, for all the reasons everyone reading this stuff already knows. I think what we're trading is for increased access but *reduced* care, in the same way that past cash payments to the poor did nothing but perpetuate their very poverty.
Well have a lot of people with insurance that still can't go to the doctors because the costs out of pocket will be too high to do so, and those costs will increase as a result of having a hostage market forced to buy the product with virtually no competition that can drive costs down.
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Posted by: dealmeinfo5 on Nov 24, 2009 10:17 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
---------------------------------------
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Posted by: kogwonton on Nov 24, 2009 10:51 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Sunnydayz on Nov 24, 2009 11:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The entire reason this bill is BAD BAD BAD and should be scrapped is because it seeks to give substandard care while bleeding the tax purse dry. Too much money will continue to be siphoned off to profit rather than go to health care. Too many people will remain under insured or not covered at all and left with substandard care or no care.
Compromise and settling for less than desired might seem like a good idea, but it isnt in some cases and this is one of those cases.
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» RE: Concept of compromise being used against us
Posted by: kettleblack
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Posted by: boylal01 on Nov 24, 2009 11:24 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm fortunate to have many options as a federal employee. It's open enrollment and I'm going safer next year and paying a high premium which will at least cover my daughter as well despite her advanced age and provides more of a "wraparound" at higher price (he rcoverage is equal to family coverage for me and husband). My superstition indicates that this will mean we will all have good health next year!
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» Wow.. have NONE of you actually READ the bill? There IS an out-of-pocket CAP that INCLUDES premiums,
Posted by: smc31569
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Posted by: gilhowcan on Nov 25, 2009 7:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The madness of this whole process has proven how extremely weak our so-called free democracy is. Between the outrageous rules of Congress that allow for filibuster in the Senate, even in the face of the majorities that exist for the so-called Democrats in both Houses of that body whose election expressed the will of the people, we are witnessing an iceberg of non-government.
Add to that the weakness that has been displayed by Barack Obama ever since he was inaugurated, and the religious manipulation of the Supreme Court by its six-Catholic majority, and there is no argument against the reality that we, like the countries of the Middle East that we are foolishly trying to democratize, are headed instead for their theocracy--just a different but equally nasty brand.
Without a genuine public option or with Stupak's stupid and illegal anti-abortion amendment, without better regulation of the thieving health insurance and pharmaceutical companies, and with no regulation over the cheating of doctors and hospitals, this is not REform at all, it is CONform with the status quo.
As Congressman Alan Grayson of Florida wisely states, "Too big to fail is too big." "Too big to fail" was the wrong attitude toward the Big-3, and it is the wrong attitude toward the medical industry, toward all industries. This is not Bart Stupak's "Garden of Eden," this is planet earth where a lot of rules beyond the last six of the Ten Commandments--the fist four having absolutely nothing to do with our secular government--are needed simply because human beings are so filled with selfish greed and ready to screw everyone they can.
Note well the fact that the most needed product/service in human existence, the care of health, is the area most lacking in morals and ethics--and regulations to obtain and maintain the same.
What's the most needed reform to get rid of do-nothing, too expensive government? Term limits on every elective office in the land. Age limits, too. That will go a long way toward correcting the damage caused by an illiterate and apathetic electorate. Throw all federal judges under those term and age limits, also.
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Posted by: mizobe on Nov 25, 2009 1:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The CEOs and stockholders are at the top of the pyramid. Just under them are the sick people (liabilities) who's claims are actually paid after jumping through a myriad of legal hoops and denials.
At the bottom of the pyramid are the people who managed to stay healthy and uninjured (assets). They are the losers.
The more claims are actually denied the more money the people at the top receive. Even when a sick person has a legitimate claim it is in the best interest of the people at the top to continue litigation and denial of medical services with the sincere hope that the patient dies.
So let us see here..your health care insurance provider wants you to die! Naw, this isn't a conflict of interest!
There will never be true health care reform as long as there are 'for profit' Insurance companies allowed to operate.
Since I'm a healthy person and I lead a healthy lifestyle I guess that makes me the biggest 'loser' of all. So much for survival of the fittest.
As for all of you 'winners' who chose to over-eat, had unprotected sex and got AIDs or became infected with a fetus...forgive me, it's all my fault and of course I'll pay for it...NOT!
Is it just me or does this whole scheme seem just a bit immoral, unfair and twisted?
Well, I'm off to buy a my weekly lotto ticket. Now there's a Ponzi scheme that's actually pretty fair.
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Posted by: ranger1 on Nov 26, 2009 12:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I am saying is even with this bill passing we all get screwed and more indentured to the corporate elite. Without a firm industrial and trade policy the 8% surcharge on employers will create even more incentives for them to move out of the country. That will be leaving still more folks without insurance and raising my 15+% currently in property taxes going for my county hospital emergency services for the folks this bill will not cover. Lets deep 6 this bill and place the single payer system back on the table. Why, it SAVES money over 10 years almost equal to the COSTS that are projected under the Pelosi/Read bills.
If we can't get it I recommend that each progressive lobby their state legislatures/ corporation bureau to prohibit health care hospitals and big pharma from operating unless they are not for profit corporations and not for profit and set the salaries of the administrators.
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Posted by: smf1403 on Nov 30, 2009 7:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua, you're being a "corporate whore" as you state, has EVERYTHING to do with "health-care legislation".
It became apparent early on in the "great debate" over health care "reform" that it is all about "corporate whorism".
Your advocating this faux display of concern for Americans without health care, by Obama and Congress is "corporate whorism".
Mandating health "insurance" and leaving out coverage for ALL people, is benefiting corporations, not the people.
ONLY single-payer healthcare for all, covers all people.
Are you proposing that you or anyone else has the moral right to decide who lives and who dies, who gets health care and who does not?
YOUR admission to being a "corporate whore" is telling, as you are writing for an assumed "progressive" news source.
OR is Alternet a faux "progressive" news source?
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Posted by: Beadmaster on Nov 30, 2009 9:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then we've got formerly uninsured people and under-insured people who can't afford premiums. Maybe we decide that people with still higher incomes can no longer afford insurance. So then we subsidize more. Or maybe not...maybe we do just the opposite.
How long is it before insurance companies are charging $10k per person per month? How long will it be before we can't afford to subsidize such outrageous demands? Then what? Do we decide to drop subsidizing altogether? Do we subsidize it for people of extremely low income only? (This is how certain things work now. If you need assistance paying your utility bills, for instance, your income must be so low, you have to be on the verge of homelessness to get assistance. So do we ultimately wait until people are on the verge of homelessness to give them health insurance subsidies?)
When will the extortion of our lives in exchange for a modicum of health care end? I can make a prediction right now of where this is going to lead. Subsidies will be diminished, leaving huge numbers of people to pay for mandatory health insurance they can't afford. The amount of income which will be needed to qualify for subsidies will be so low, only a very few will qualify. And the amount of those subsidies won't even make a dent for those who do.
The rest will take the tax penalty. Which, after all, will likely be a hell of a lot less expensive than health insurance. I'm guessing people will save thousands per year this way. Instead of 50 million uninsured, we'll probably break out of 8 digits and end up in the 9 digit area...meaning hundreds of millions uninsured, rather than "mere" tens of millions. So then what do we do? Wait until the number reaches 100M before we address health care again? 150M? 200M? Do we wait until most of our citizens uninsured?
Thus, nothing will be resolved with this bill. Oh, temporarily, it will...and it will look good on paper. Wow, 20 million uninsured now insured! Subsidies paid for those who can't afford it. What? Now the insurance companies aren't happy, so they'll be charging more? What, people can't afford it? Poor, poor insurance companies. Screw the people. We can't afford to pay subsidies to the lazy poor so they can sit around on their asses and get "free" health care (never mind that they likely work 2-3 jobs that don't pay enough to put food on the table), so let them pay their own bills. It's American, damn it. Not to mention how American it is for the CEOs of health insurance companies to continue to make millions per year...we have to turn that into billions.
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Posted by: djnoll on Nov 30, 2009 10:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have insurance companies that will have limited new regulations put in place; an enforced consumer marketplace (nothing free market about it!); a 2.5% fine collected by IRS for those who do not get insurance; and a variety of other issues that only seem to benefit insurance companies and health care industry corporations at the expense of taxpayers and the elderly. And yet the agency or agencies that will be tasked with overseeing this disaster will be making up their own enforcement and administrative regulations as they go along. Now considering how our government is currently a swinging door between regulated industries and those who regulate them (look at DoD and Treasury for example), just how do you see this new health care reform actually playing out?
I can tell you what I see: former insurance and health industry executives and managers getting hired for "their expertise" to run these new agencies. They will run them in the same way that they always do in DC - to the benefit of their former employers and the detriment of the American citizen. This bill is so full of loopholes that you would have to be blind not to see this.
Something is better than nothing has been the argument for too long in DC and as a result we have destroyed our educational system, our food supply system, our environment, and just about everything in this nation except the military/industrial complex (although we have certainly destroyed our young service people and seriously depleted their numbers.) I would like to suggest that we not "just settle" for something now, but that we actually get it right the first time out of the gate.
All too often, the tweaking that everyone talks about never happens because Congressional make-up changes every 2 years, and since this bill is not due to even be implemented until at least 2013, you could have at least 2 changes in power within that time that could leave this disaster waiting to happen in place untouched while the industries that are suppose to be regulated work very hard to reap higher profits and do more harm in those 4 years.
This bill is worse than nothing, Joshua, because it is poorly thought out, heavily watered down, and so compromised by corporate and religious influence that it is nothing more than pablum and I think America has had enough pablum in its legislation. Either we do it right the first time, or we leave it alone and work to develop better legislation on the state level, and outside of DC's control, that actually helps all Americans, not just corporate Americans.
Some states have already done so successfully, so this is not outside of the realm of possibility. Perhaps it is time for us to consider that in some areas, states might actually be the better place for legislation than the one-size fits all legislation in DC.
Let DC regulate the insurance industry heavily since they cross state lines and fine them heavily when they fail to comply, but let the states set up health care reform within their states to best meet the needs of their individual citizenry. Federal regulation isn't always the answer.
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Posted by: eridani on Nov 30, 2009 8:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't much appreciate being put into the disposable human garbage category just so the Dems can say they passed something. If they want to pass something, just pull out the funding for community clinics and more primary care doctors and pass that stuff separately.
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» What part of the word SUBSIDY is it that you don't understand ?
Posted by: smc31569
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Posted by: jimyyu on Nov 30, 2009 10:31 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: weightman on Dec 9, 2009 11:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, This Health Care Bill Really is Worse Than Nothing
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When Will Obama Stop Trying to Work with Republicans?
Sarah Palin Aims to Bust Up the Republican Party -- And the Tea Party Movement
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