COMMENTS: 122
Why You Should Be Screaming for Higher Taxes
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US economic growth has been strongest when our taxes have been high. During World War II, then under Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy, our upper marginal tax rates were between 88-92%. Read those numbers again. They are astonishingly high. Those were our strongest growth years.
I never expected to say this. Pelosi's right, Obama's wrong.
Do keep in mind that we are talking about higher taxes on the richest members of society, the very richest. So, unless you're among that elite group, don't panic for personal reasons.
Keep in mind, also, that we are speaking only of income taxes.
You have certainly heard, several thousand times, that tax cuts lead to economic growth.
That's not true.
Moderate tax cuts lead to a flat economy. (The Johnson tax cuts, usually misnamed the Kennedy tax cuts, lead to 16 years of virtually no growth.)
Large tax cuts are followed by a boom in the financial sector, a bubble, and a crash. Then a recession or depression with massive bank failures. This has happened three times, in the 1920s, under Reagan, and under George W. Bush.
During a depression or recession, the point where taxes are increased marks the point when the economy begins its recovery: 1932 under Hoover, Roosevelt's second round of tax hikes in 1940, the first president Bush's tax hike, followed by the Clinton tax hike. (There's one exception. Roosevelt's tax hike of 1936, which was accompanied by cuts in government spending.)
US economic growth has been strongest when our taxes have been high. During World War II, then under Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy, our upper marginal tax rates were between 88-92%. Read those numbers again. They are astonishingly high. Those were our strongest growth years.
The next time we experienced strong growth -- not just in the fiscal sector, across the entire economy -- was after the Clinton tax hikes.
Why do tax hikes lead to strong economic growth?
Tax hikes usually correspond to higher government spending.
Government spends money on things that the private sector does not spend money on: physical infrastructure, social infrastructure, market infrastructure, and defense. These are the things that create a world in which doing business is possible. The worse those things are, the worse business is. The better they are, the better business is.
Rich people can't be trusted with too much money. If they have too much easy cash around, they get conned into Ponzi schemes, they go for quick money deals, they get suckered into bubbles, and then the whole economy crashes.
Can we have increased government spending without tax hikes?
No.
We can spend more than the government takes in -- if, and only if -- the following is true.
If the government is spending more than it takes in order to create an environment where more productive business is possible, then, at some point, the investment will begin to pay off and revenues will rise. If, at the same time, government spending declines (as a percentage of GDP), increased revenue will catch up with spending and the debt will be paid off.
Or -- since this is the real world, in which there are always new needs and new problems, and therefore new things to pay for -- the old debts will be caught up with and paid down, while new ones are taken on, hopefully to build new things that will pay off in turn.
In order for that to work, the tax rate has to be high enough so that the first set of deficits could actually be paid off (if life, government and business suddenly stopped there). If the tax rate is not high enough to do that -- even if only in theory -- then debt piles upon debt and the country's currency becomes worthless.
Debts at some point must be paid. Even if new debts are being taken on. The fact that government goes on and on, and there are constant new debts, disguises that. It makes us think of the debt as a condition, something special to government, that is actually different from regular economics. But it's not.
So the set-up has to be like that of a real business. We take on debt to get things done. We need a revenue stream that will pay for that debt. In this case, it's called taxes. If the set-up is such that the revenue stream will never pay for that debt, we must go bankrupt. Or mortgage and then sell off our assets, and then go bankrupt. Which is what we tried under George Bush.
There is a theory that tax cuts -- even without spending cuts -- will pay for themselves out of increased revenues. This has the laughable name, The Laffer Curve. It apparently works very well in Republican minds but has never worked in reality. It produces huge deficits that eventually require tax hikes to pay down the debt.
We are now taking on two huge new sets of debts.
The first is to pay for the Laffer Curve idiocy of the Bush years.
The second is to rebuild the economy from the devastation of those policies and the ones like them in preceding administrations.
Somehow, those debts will have to paid for.
The question is how?
We know that even if the economy is relatively active, as it was during the fiscal bubble of the Bush years, that it cannot pay the cost of government with the tax rates that we currently have. There was lots of taxable money being generated, yet it never came close to catching up with spending. That's not even counting those costs -- like the wars -- that were kept off the books.
Even if we were not going to invest in rebuilding the economy, we would have to raise taxes just to get even. Then raise them again to pay down the debt.
But unless we rebuild the economy it will not generate enough money to create the revenue stream (taxes) to pay the debts. So that has to be done too.
Why are we so resistant to raising taxes?
It's our nature. Nobody likes to give up their personal money for the common good.
People with a lot of money have, over the past fifty years, spent a fortune on exploiting that instinct and pandering to that feeling. Eventually, with nobody willing to say publicly that taxes are good, they took over the dialogue. It is now routine to hear tax cuts refereed to as "pro-growth" policies, even though, in fact, that's not true. It is routine to hear tax hikes called "anti-growth" policies, when that's not true.
The rich, the Republicans, and the Right, have lost this last election, but they still own the mythology.
High taxes make for a sound economy. High taxes make us all better off. High taxes will make you richer. Even after taxes.
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Posted by: Groovy Vegan on Jan 12, 2009 12:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iraq War
$4,681 per household.
$1,721 per person.
$341.4 million per day.
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» Common Good
Posted by: Jest2007
» Irrelevant Conclusion
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» RE: Irrelevant Conclusion
Posted by: Beck
» In response to GV's specifics, you've both offered 'religious' rhetoric.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Not irrelevant
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE:You said it
Posted by: GrannyBgood
» RE: Common Good??? Give me a break.
Posted by: Libsrule
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Posted by: mmckinl on Jan 12, 2009 12:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama is already talking tax cuts and reigning in entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare. This of course is right out of the Republican Playbook!
We need to expand federal responsibility until everyone is covered by Medicare and strengthen Social Security in this economic crisis.
Taxes on the well to do should be 50% over 500k and 60% over 1 million. All income should be ordinary income and loopholes closed ...
You my friends had better start screaming for higher taxes on the rich or our future is very bleak indeed.
~David Cay Johnston is a must read for anybody serious about understanding and fixing our tax system
Fiscal Therapy:
Getting the economy back on its feet, giving taxpayers a break, saving your retirement fund and your kid's college tuition? Done. And it won't cost you a penny.
by David Cay Johnston
Fiscal Therapy
David Cay Johnston (born 1948) is an investigative journalist and author. Until April 2008, he was a senior reporter with The New York Times but now works as an independent author and reporter. He is the author of best-selling books on tax and economic policy, the most recently published of which is Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense and Stick You With The Bill, about hidden subsidies, rigged markets, and corporate socialism. It follows his earlier book Perfectly Legal: The Covert Campaign to Rig Our Tax System to Benefit the Super Rich--and Cheat Everybody Else, a New York Times bestseller.[1]
Johnston received the 2001 Pulitzer Prize for Beat Reporting "for his penetrating and enterprising reporting that exposed loopholes and inequities in the U.S. tax code, which was instrumental in bringing about reforms." He also won the Book of the Year award from Investigative Reporters & Editors.
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» Consumption tax and an EITC-style rebate: support the poor, expand the middle, tax the heaviest...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» NO to sales tax - it hits the poor the most!
Posted by: truthlover
» "our" money?
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: Scream For Higher Taxes on the Rich ... or it's Goodbye to SSI and Medicare
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Scream For Higher Taxes on the Rich ... or it's Goodbye to SSI and Medicare
Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
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Posted by: Jest2007 on Jan 12, 2009 2:16 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: might have known that the trolls would be out in force on this topic!
Posted by: Jest2007
» I just find it funny
Posted by: democracynowiniraq
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Posted by: monkeyamore on Jan 12, 2009 2:57 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Federal Reserve Bank is a corrupt institution and the passing of the bill that installed it (only 3 senators were present) passed 3 days before Christmas when some corrupt politicians put it through while everyone else was away. The president at the time acknowledged what a terrible mistake he'd made. Our founding fathers were very much against central banks, Jefferson's concerns about their increasing/decreasing of the money supply can be used to bankrupt the people and reap tons of money are especially pertinent today.
Do a google video search for : "The Money Masters - How International Bankers Gained Control of America."
This article is ridiculous, essentially stating "Yes we must continue to subjugate ourselves to a corrupt institution that intentionally created the problems we are experiencing for their own gain." I've lost an enormous amount of respect for this website!
END THE FED.
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Posted by: Suzon on Jan 12, 2009 3:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here in the UK, a land tax would gradually help reduce the gap between the richest and poorest. If the people who own thousands of acres were taxed to the same extent that those living in the very small houses that are the norm here, most people would only pay a pittance. Instead the richest are actually subsidized!
The self-anointed elite has been using law for criminal purposes--cheating, lying, stealing and killing. Money should never have been allowed to trump democracy and decency.
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» RE: what you tax is important too--bring back the luxury tax
Posted by: EncinoM
» Gosh, whatEVER you do, don't "redistribute the wealth"!!!!
Posted by: truthlover
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Posted by: 2thepoint on Jan 12, 2009 3:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The government has demonstrated a real talent for wasting our money time and time again. What you can get done for $100 they can get done for $1,000!
do they need more money..nope..they need better management.. Start by dumping Pelosi, Reid and Barney Franks! The GOP already purged theirs
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» RE: Pay more or spend better!
Posted by: Jest2007
» RE: Pay more or spend better!
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Pay more or spend better!
Posted by: JSquercia
» The housing market crash wasn't the beginning...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Pay more or spend better!
Posted by: freelyb
» Greenspan admitted he was wrong
Posted by: Jest2007
» It is the public that is purging the GOP
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» RE: It is the public that is purging the GOP
Posted by: 2thepoint
» Don't you support the troops?
Posted by: Jest2007
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Posted by: Jest2007 on Jan 12, 2009 3:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Fatal Attraction
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Fatal Attraction
Posted by: JSquercia
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Posted by: peppylapew on Jan 12, 2009 5:10 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Speak for yourself. It's not in my nature to exploit my community by withholding my money. But come on: does anyone really believe that, on balance, new taxes will be used for the "common good," when all experience leads us to expect just the opposite?
Take defense spending (please). A defense budget one-quarter the current level would actually make us safer --- by removing a potent weapon from the hands of folks like Cheney.
I can't decide if the writer of this article is being simplistic, or disingenuous. Taxes are going up, a lot --- that's inevitable given the furious pace of gov't spending. The writer reminds me of a gubernatorial candidate here who once, jokingly, suggested that if one is about to be raped, one might as well lie back and try to enjoy it.
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» A red herring
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» What the...?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: What the...?
Posted by: JSquercia
» You're absolutely right, though I'd point out...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Please, just take it all ...
Posted by: freelyb
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Posted by: otto on Jan 12, 2009 5:42 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Why do you trust the government more?
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: BeckyD on Jan 12, 2009 6:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I assume you've called your local police and fire departments to let them know that as they're funded by 'legalized robbery,' you want no part of their services under any circumstances?
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» RE: Common good? Don't waste my time.
Posted by: brock_samson
» RE: Common good? Don't waste my time.
Posted by: freelyb
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Posted by: sausage on Jan 12, 2009 7:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: tjg1984 on Jan 13, 2009 3:32 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If something the government does has popular support, it will probably be done pretty well voluntarily. If it has no popular support, then it probably shouldn't be done. Either way, no coercion is needed.
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» RE: I do care about the common good, but...
Posted by: EdinIowa
» I am not ignorant of social contract theory.
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: BeckyD on Jan 12, 2009 6:12 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The trouble is, anyone over the age of 40 has a history of seeing government waste our tax dollars again and again and again. New administrations come in full of promises of accountability and fiscal responsibility and we get $200 toilet seats and programs that use our hard earned money to benefit rich corporations.
Before I will support raising taxes on anyone, I want to see the Obama administration in action. Let them demonstrate concretely that they do intend to remove earmarks and wasteful spending, that they will put some accountability on the TARP funds. Obama is very good at talking the talk. Let's see what kind of steward he will be with our resources before we start raising taxes.
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» You think Washington is gonna do any common good with your tax dollars?
Posted by: Wayne Etheridge
» Yes... The system is corrupt beyond repair.
Posted by: buffeliscious
» This is very reasonable.
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: dover23 on Jan 12, 2009 6:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do have any idea how much it cost us to put Obama in office? Sure we owned the mainstream media since the Clinton 90s but now we had to buy out practically all the so-called alternative media as well. You think we could have done that and also paid high taxes? Jeez, if we stayed out of it there would be Ron Paul in the white house and anarchy in the streets.
Please don't underappreciate who's created the illusion of change that's given you all that feel-good hope recently.
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Posted by: GrannyBgood on Jan 12, 2009 7:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where is the "common good" in WAR and especially financing GENOCIDE, like we're doing in Gaza by having to send over 4 billion of OUR TAXES to the murdering Israelis?
That alone would make a good start on Nationalized Health care, that they're always whining they don't have the money for!
Whatever happened to "No taxation without Representation"? ?
Time for another REVOLUTION, not more Repug-lite!
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» RE: No Taxation without Representation!
Posted by: freelyb
» Decentralize!
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jan 12, 2009 7:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The last eight years of mostly you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours between the executive and legislative branches were a disaster. Now, the demoboobs are fully invested in taking their shot at effing things up for the average person.
No thanks.
My wife and I have finally finished our education, we've finally saved enough to be looking to buy into a house with ~30% equity from day one, and we've done it without running up credit card debt, massive student loans, or tearing each other down. You fools who have perptrated this so-called "crisis"--which is another way of saying that your stupid credit card has hit its limit, finally--don't deserve a bail out. If you made foolish decisions with your future, you should eat beans for a while. I did as a kid--they're better for you than twinkies, anyway.
It sickens my heart to see several million greedy, ignorant fools and a handful of bastards and crooks at a few financial institutions shake this country to its foundation. TARP was an awful idea. Our government getting into the auto business is NOT a legitimate function of government.
No thanks to any more bailouts, and no thanks to mortgaging any more of our country's future to pay for our excesses today.
Slash the budgets, and then pay for what we want as we go. Prove to me you can send representatives to Congress who will spend wisely, and then ask me for more money, wisely spent.
As of right now, sending more money to be spent by a body with a 14% approval rating smacks more of desperation than any sort of "plan". At least if I'd sent my money to Congress' private sector analog--Madoff--I could ask for a tax break due to theft. I am not, however, that foolish with my money. I only wish the same of my fellows.
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» RE: No thanks. Taxes are taxing, and neither the party of money and power, nor the party...
Posted by: sausage
» Nice. "Love it or leave it!" Which bumper sticker did you get that conservative mantra, from...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Obviously, you don't love your country...
Posted by: sausage
» Meh. You and your flag lapel pins and stupid taxes can go...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» That was refreshing.
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: sausage on Jan 12, 2009 7:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Without a solid middle class underpinning the economy, the rich surely won't get any richer. They might even get a little poorer.
It's their duty, as good citizens, to pay their fair share for the continued fiscal health and well-being of the national economy which, in the long run, tends to make them even richer still.
And if any members of the upper one percent club do not feel they owe the greater society anything, here's my suggestion on what they should do: Put yer shoes on and get the hell outta my country.
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Posted by: Wayne Etheridge on Jan 12, 2009 8:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» pelosi and reid aren't liberals...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» Thanks for correcting me.
Posted by: Wayne Etheridge
» Don't Earn $150K ? ... You Won't Have To Pay More Taxes ...
Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: Don't Earn $150K ? ... You Won't Have To Pay More Taxes ...
Posted by: EdinIowa
» I do agree we need to tax the uber-wealthy. We also need to make sure that
Posted by: Wayne Etheridge
» RE: I do agree we need to tax the uber-wealthy. We also need to make sure that
Posted by: EdinIowa
» I don't generally use such strong language, but...
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on Jan 12, 2009 8:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As just a very small example, my state taxes are used in part to keep our rural roads graded and graveled. If all the neighbors on my back road got together and paid to just put gravel on as often as is needed, it would cost us much more than all our taxes combined. So maybe the state government does use some of its revenue to fund (for example) educational administrators' conventions. If the money went to private industries instead, it would very likely pay for huge CEO salaries and other perks and the services provided would cost considerably more. (And, yes, it might generate some jobs, but so does government money - someone has to grade the road no matter who they work for.)
If the US had a government paid universal health care system, we might all have to pay more taxes, but I am absolutely convinced that it would not mean an increase in taxes of $12,000 per year (the amount it costs just for insurance premiums in some states) plus deductibles, copays, and other medical expenses. Part of what costs Americans so much is paying the salaries and bookkeeping costs to those who work in the insurance and health care industries.
The government does not make a profit, business does. It's just like the private mercenaries who make multiples of what our troops make. It isn't that our taxes are not used to pay those mercenaries; it's that the companies contract with the government which pays them out of the same taxes that would be used to pay soldiers. In other words, our taxes help pay for private industry profits at the expense of the military. Prisons are the same way, as would be schools if the regressives had their way and they became privatized.
I have read that approximately 85% of US companies don't pay income tax because they base their operations in places like off-shore islands outside of US jurisdiction (as well as using other loopholes). Does anyone have more information on this subject? It seems to be a pretty high estimate, but I've heard it more than once.
I find it to be rather amazing that the neocons and other regressive rightwingers keep insisting that cutting taxes boosts the economy and hardly anyone challenges them when they say this. Recently on CNN, a Republican congresswoman was interviewed about the financial situation (can't remember who she was), and she announced that tax cuts increase ecomonic growth. The interviewer was John Roberts, and I've seen him challenge someone many times when he or she said something questionable. But he never even questioned this absurd statement.
Of course it's possible to overtax people, and it's also important that our taxes really are used for the common good. And although it's nearly impossible to entirely eliminate waste, corruption, and pork spending, I'd rather see some government waste than have my money go to increase the wealth and power of CEOs and multinational corporate interests.
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» RE: A few thoughts
Posted by: Lilly
» You have more choices than that.
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: fanny666 on Jan 12, 2009 8:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fiscal Bang for the Buck
One-year $ change in real GDP per $ reduction in federal tax revenue or increase in spending.
Tax Cuts
Nonrefundable Lump-Sum Tax Rebate 1.02
Refundable Lump-Sum Tax Rebate 1.26
Temporary Tax Cuts
Payroll Tax Holiday 1.29
Across the Board Tax Cut 1.03
Accelerated Depreciation 0.27
Permanent Tax Cuts
Extend Alternative Minimum Tax Patch 0.48
Make Bush Income Tax Cuts Permanent 0.29
Make Dividend and Capital Gains Tax Cuts Permanent 0.37
Cut Corporate Tax Rate 0.30
Spending Increases
Extend Unemployment Insurance Benefits 1.64
Temporarily Increase Food Stamps 1.73
Issue General Aid to State Governments 1.36
Increase Infrastructure Spending 1.59
Source: Moody's Economy.com
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» Doesn't that--in totality--partly presume that you, your dumbass neighbor, or ...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Doesn't that--in totality--partly presume that you, your dumbass neighbor, or ...
Posted by: fanny666
» I should also say...
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Jan 12, 2009 9:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: people fail to see the other side of taxes...
Posted by: Wayne Etheridge
» RE: people fail to see the other side of taxes...
Posted by: EdinIowa
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Posted by: lewb on Jan 12, 2009 10:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Make a proposal
Posted by: billwald
» RE: Make a proposal
Posted by: dover23
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Posted by: lewb on Jan 12, 2009 10:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: billwald on Jan 12, 2009 11:11 AM
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How many actually paid this rate? I suspect none. Real rich people don't have taxable income except pocket change. They have a max 15% capital gains tax on what they spend. How much does a person with a $billion in assets spend? How much more than a person with $100 million? Ten bucks? Bottom line is that the $900 million is NEVER taxed except for death taxes and it is $9 Billion by then.
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» RE: how many people actually paid the 88% marginal tax rate?
Posted by: EdinIowa
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Posted by: constitution, what constitution on Jan 12, 2009 11:13 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Income taxes are unconstutional. Then again the majority of our laws are today, so that doesn't really matter.
2. Define rich. All these comments throw around "tax the rich/wealthy" without giving an actual number which would define a person/family as wealthy. Personally I believe this number should vary across the country due to cost of living. Just because I make more than "Joe the Plumber" (also a favorite phrase of these comments) does not mean my standard of living is that much greater than his.
3. Demanding a responsible government is more important than raising taxes. Hell, cut the War on Drugs, War on Terror, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. and we could fund single payer health care, renewable energy research, etc. (which create jobs and bolster our economy; without raising taxes!)
4. Public works arguments: I have no problem paying a toll for a road. At least then I'll know my money is going to upkeep the road I use as opposed to Federal Abstinence Only Education Programs.
5. Cut/Reposition Federal jobs. Run the Government like a private corporation. Cut useless departments and reposition their employees. Cut or retrain employees with poor performance. No sense wasting tax dollars on multiple departments which provide the same services.
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Posted by: BCcovers on Jan 12, 2009 11:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the biggest mistakes made by Herbert Hoover was cutting government spending and freezing tax rates or raising them in some sectors. This is widely regarded as having exacerbated the great depression. At the time there was an outspoken economist named John Maynard Keynes who balked at such a premise and stated (in short) that in order to encourage growth, the government must spend more (this means more government jobs, public works, etc.) and also cut taxes at the same time in order to create growth in the private sector and cheaper prices for consumers. The idea of running a deficit in rough economic times seemed (and still seems to some) counter-intuitive. However, the flip side of the coin is that the government should do just the opposite (raise taxes and decrease spending) during times of extremely fast growth in order to curb inflation. Unfortunately, when times are good no one wants higher taxes and people (and our government is made of people) tend to spend $ like drunken sailors.
FDR took a chance and listened to Keynsian economic doctrine as he crafted the New Deal. This, along with the arrivial of WWII took us out of the Depression. Now, every recession and time in history is different, however it seems to me to be common sense not to raise taxes in a recession when we know what the results were when we tried this before. At the very least we should look back at history and see what has worked and what hasn't worked. We know, without a doubt, that raising taxes does not produce growth and is a toxic activity to engage in during a recession. Hoover proved that raising taxes (the Revenue act of 1932)during economic times is very very bad. History might not tell us exactly what we should do in this situation, but it does give us a strong warning of what not to do.
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» Then when do you raise taxes?
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Then when do you raise taxes?
Posted by: BCcovers
» You'll notice that Clinton raised taxes
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: You'll notice that Clinton raised taxes
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: You'll notice that Clinton raised taxes
Posted by: BCcovers
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lilly on Jan 12, 2009 3:21 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Since when do Republicans teach that taxation is theft?
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: centure7 on Jan 12, 2009 3:34 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Corporate tax is a 10% tax ON THE POOR. Notice how basic needs corporations are taxed at the same rate as corporations that make luxury goods. And who pays in the end every last penny of the taxes? Well lets see... corporations get their money in the end from who... oh yeah everyday people like you and me when we go to the store to buy stuff. So corporations that sell NEEDS like food, water, and clothing, pay taxes at the same rate as WANTS like jewelery stores. And on top of that you actually have to pay sales tax in most states on ALL of food, shelter, and clothing!
So lets see we have a 10% basic needs corporate tax + a 16% social security tax... that is already 26% on the poorest of the poor, with no way to avoid it!
Now states are talking about a miles tax applied to each mile driven in place of a gasoline tax. First, what the state does is force you to put a tracking device so they can track your every move by GPS. Next, they tax you for every mile driven. This way, the fat-cats in state government don't have to worry about that sharp and painful gas tax when they drive around their Hummer. Instead they can take great joy in the fact people who paid $3,000 for their used 30MPG Toyota have to pay another $3,000 in milage tax at the same rate as the $85,000 Hummer driver.
Talk about regression! And lets not forget that Obama may not even repeal the GW Bush tax breaks for the ultra-rich! What a total loser if he does at least do that!
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» RE: Politicians are only interested in tax on the poor!
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Politicians are only interested in tax on the poor!
Posted by: centure7
» RE: Politicians are only interested in tax on the poor!
Posted by: EdinIowa
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pdxjoe on Jan 12, 2009 5:20 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: centure7 on Jan 12, 2009 5:55 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know its true they didn't specifically say "national taxes" but you could tell by what the article focused on (Obama for example) that they meant a giant encompassing national tax.
Maybe the states who got hosed with the bad debts can go screw themself with higher taxes while those states such as the one I live in who acted responsibly won't have to get screwed over with the burden of higher taxes?
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» RE: Why is Alternet so obsessed with GARGANTUAN governments?
Posted by: wrinklemomma
» Actually...
Posted by: tjg1984
» RE: Why is Alternet so obsessed with GARGANTUAN governments?
Posted by: Lilly
» You can't be serious.
Posted by: tjg1984
» Great idea!
Posted by: tjg1984
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Mailtrain on Jan 12, 2009 7:23 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Taxes are a form of federal slavery
Posted by: Lilly
» Unfortunately, I think you're right.
Posted by: tjg1984
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wrinklemomma on Jan 12, 2009 7:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: willymack on Jan 12, 2009 8:13 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Single payer universal health care (drug & insurance companies had better stay away).
2. Universal education through college for those academically qualified.
3. A plebisite system whereby we, the people vote on whether we make war on another country. Let's face it; congress can't be trusted with this.
4. A Constitutional Convention. If the ONLY thing coming out of this is the elimination of the hopelessly corrupt Electoral College, it'll be well worth it.
5. A whole new economy. The current one SUCKS. Maybe if there was no money.
6. A vote of "NO Confidence" by the people for the purpose of getting rid of trash like cheney/bush. Again, the congress can't be trusted with this.
I don't want to hear any crap about why we can't do any of this. We're the CAN DO country, remember?
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» RE: I'm willing to pay 50% of my income in taxes... me too
Posted by: DaBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DaBear on Jan 12, 2009 10:43 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I got confused by this: Why are we so resistant to raising taxes?
It's our nature. Nobody likes to give up their personal money for the common good.
I had a Quaker great grandfather who used to look forward to paying his income taxes. [Cue the alien insults and irascible laughter and catcalls] I looked forward to it as well... until I went beyond my altruistic urges and realized that a Government of, by, and for the owning-class in the US of A has no interest in the common good like I do. They abuse the tax system for their own personal good and then indoctrinate their sycophantic middlings and working class serfs with a mythology of lies and self-serving red herrings in order to perpetuate their plunder of others less fortunate (or criminal) than themselves.
Ideally, I LOVE paying taxes on my income. It's not a hell of a lot different than the private money I donate every year to non-profits who are altruistic in nature... even when I honestly cannot really afford to do so.
It would just hurt a lot less if the common good was actually served by those taxes instead of my private money going into the pockets of owning-classers who cheat us all (never mind the military soldier cult).
Earlier in this awesome piece, I latched onto this gem:
Rich people can't be trusted with too much money. If they have too much easy cash around, they get conned into Ponzi schemes, they go for quick money deals, they get suckered into bubbles, and then the whole economy crashes.
I totally agree. Just spend time with the owning class and any reasonable human being would be shocked at what passes for "common sense" among that group... and after 8 years of looting the commons and most everyone else's privates... they're the ONLY ones in power now. They hold all our cards and they think it's perfectly fine to flush them for us.
1789, baby....
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» 1776, baby.
Posted by: tjg1984
» RE: Nobody? I knew I landed on the wrong planet.....
Posted by: BCcovers
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Jan 14, 2009 3:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Eisenhower screwed it up. 1958 was a depression year. Harry's standard answer to any question was likely to be "more democracy".
This is our problem. We have too little democracy. Individually selfish men will not work together for a common cause. The nation and the body politic suffers.
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Posted by: gellero1 on Jan 15, 2009 10:54 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: 90% Marginal Rates
Posted by: Defenestrator
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Groovy Vegan on Jan 12, 2009 12:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iraq War
$4,681 per household.
$1,721 per person.
$341.4 million per day.
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» Common Good
Posted by: Jest2007
» Irrelevant Conclusion
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» RE: Irrelevant Conclusion
Posted by: Beck
» In response to GV's specifics, you've both offered 'religious' rhetoric.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Not irrelevant
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE:You said it
Posted by: GrannyBgood
» RE: Common Good??? Give me a break.
Posted by: Libsrule
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmckinl on Jan 12, 2009 12:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama is already talking tax cuts and reigning in entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare. This of course is right out of the Republican Playbook!
We need to expand federal responsibility until everyone is covered by Medicare and strengthen Social Security in this economic crisis.
Taxes on the well to do should be 50% over 500k and 60% over 1 million. All income should be ordinary income and loopholes closed ...
You my friends had better start screaming for higher taxes on the rich or our future is very bleak indeed.
~David Cay Johnston is a must read for anybody serious about understanding and fixing our tax system
Fiscal Therapy:
Getting the economy back on its feet, giving taxpayers a break, saving your retirement fund and your kid's college tuition? Done. And it won't cost you a penny.
by David Cay Johnston
Fiscal Therapy
David Cay Johnston (born 1948) is an investigative journalist and author. Until April 2008, he was a senior reporter with The New York Times but now works as an independent author and reporter. He is the author of best-selling books on tax and economic policy, the most recently published of which is Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense and Stick You With The Bill, about hidden subsidies, rigged markets, and corporate socialism. It follows his earlier book Perfectly Legal: The Covert Campaign to Rig Our Tax System to Benefit the Super Rich--and Cheat Everybody Else, a New York Times bestseller.[1]
Johnston received the 2001 Pulitzer Prize for Beat Reporting "for his penetrating and enterprising reporting that exposed loopholes and inequities in the U.S. tax code, which was instrumental in bringing about reforms." He also won the Book of the Year award from Investigative Reporters & Editors.
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» Consumption tax and an EITC-style rebate: support the poor, expand the middle, tax the heaviest...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» NO to sales tax - it hits the poor the most!
Posted by: truthlover
» "our" money?
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: Scream For Higher Taxes on the Rich ... or it's Goodbye to SSI and Medicare
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Scream For Higher Taxes on the Rich ... or it's Goodbye to SSI and Medicare
Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jest2007 on Jan 12, 2009 2:16 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: might have known that the trolls would be out in force on this topic!
Posted by: Jest2007
» I just find it funny
Posted by: democracynowiniraq
Comments are closed-
Posted by: monkeyamore on Jan 12, 2009 2:57 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Federal Reserve Bank is a corrupt institution and the passing of the bill that installed it (only 3 senators were present) passed 3 days before Christmas when some corrupt politicians put it through while everyone else was away. The president at the time acknowledged what a terrible mistake he'd made. Our founding fathers were very much against central banks, Jefferson's concerns about their increasing/decreasing of the money supply can be used to bankrupt the people and reap tons of money are especially pertinent today.
Do a google video search for : "The Money Masters - How International Bankers Gained Control of America."
This article is ridiculous, essentially stating "Yes we must continue to subjugate ourselves to a corrupt institution that intentionally created the problems we are experiencing for their own gain." I've lost an enormous amount of respect for this website!
END THE FED.
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Posted by: Suzon on Jan 12, 2009 3:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here in the UK, a land tax would gradually help reduce the gap between the richest and poorest. If the people who own thousands of acres were taxed to the same extent that those living in the very small houses that are the norm here, most people would only pay a pittance. Instead the richest are actually subsidized!
The self-anointed elite has been using law for criminal purposes--cheating, lying, stealing and killing. Money should never have been allowed to trump democracy and decency.
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» RE: what you tax is important too--bring back the luxury tax
Posted by: EncinoM
» Gosh, whatEVER you do, don't "redistribute the wealth"!!!!
Posted by: truthlover
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 2thepoint on Jan 12, 2009 3:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The government has demonstrated a real talent for wasting our money time and time again. What you can get done for $100 they can get done for $1,000!
do they need more money..nope..they need better management.. Start by dumping Pelosi, Reid and Barney Franks! The GOP already purged theirs
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» RE: Pay more or spend better!
Posted by: Jest2007
» RE: Pay more or spend better!
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Pay more or spend better!
Posted by: JSquercia
» The housing market crash wasn't the beginning...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Pay more or spend better!
Posted by: freelyb
» Greenspan admitted he was wrong
Posted by: Jest2007
» It is the public that is purging the GOP
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» RE: It is the public that is purging the GOP
Posted by: 2thepoint
» Don't you support the troops?
Posted by: Jest2007
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jest2007 on Jan 12, 2009 3:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Fatal Attraction
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Fatal Attraction
Posted by: JSquercia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peppylapew on Jan 12, 2009 5:10 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Speak for yourself. It's not in my nature to exploit my community by withholding my money. But come on: does anyone really believe that, on balance, new taxes will be used for the "common good," when all experience leads us to expect just the opposite?
Take defense spending (please). A defense budget one-quarter the current level would actually make us safer --- by removing a potent weapon from the hands of folks like Cheney.
I can't decide if the writer of this article is being simplistic, or disingenuous. Taxes are going up, a lot --- that's inevitable given the furious pace of gov't spending. The writer reminds me of a gubernatorial candidate here who once, jokingly, suggested that if one is about to be raped, one might as well lie back and try to enjoy it.
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» A red herring
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» What the...?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: What the...?
Posted by: JSquercia
» You're absolutely right, though I'd point out...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Please, just take it all ...
Posted by: freelyb
Comments are closed-
Posted by: otto on Jan 12, 2009 5:42 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Why do you trust the government more?
Posted by: tjg1984
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BeckyD on Jan 12, 2009 6:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I assume you've called your local police and fire departments to let them know that as they're funded by 'legalized robbery,' you want no part of their services under any circumstances?
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» RE: Common good? Don't waste my time.
Posted by: brock_samson
» RE: Common good? Don't waste my time.
Posted by: freelyb
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sausage on Jan 12, 2009 7:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: tjg1984 on Jan 13, 2009 3:32 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If something the government does has popular support, it will probably be done pretty well voluntarily. If it has no popular support, then it probably shouldn't be done. Either way, no coercion is needed.
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» RE: I do care about the common good, but...
Posted by: EdinIowa
» I am not ignorant of social contract theory.
Posted by: tjg1984
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BeckyD on Jan 12, 2009 6:12 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The trouble is, anyone over the age of 40 has a history of seeing government waste our tax dollars again and again and again. New administrations come in full of promises of accountability and fiscal responsibility and we get $200 toilet seats and programs that use our hard earned money to benefit rich corporations.
Before I will support raising taxes on anyone, I want to see the Obama administration in action. Let them demonstrate concretely that they do intend to remove earmarks and wasteful spending, that they will put some accountability on the TARP funds. Obama is very good at talking the talk. Let's see what kind of steward he will be with our resources before we start raising taxes.
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» You think Washington is gonna do any common good with your tax dollars?
Posted by: Wayne Etheridge
» Yes... The system is corrupt beyond repair.
Posted by: buffeliscious
» This is very reasonable.
Posted by: tjg1984
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dover23 on Jan 12, 2009 6:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do have any idea how much it cost us to put Obama in office? Sure we owned the mainstream media since the Clinton 90s but now we had to buy out practically all the so-called alternative media as well. You think we could have done that and also paid high taxes? Jeez, if we stayed out of it there would be Ron Paul in the white house and anarchy in the streets.
Please don't underappreciate who's created the illusion of change that's given you all that feel-good hope recently.
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Posted by: GrannyBgood on Jan 12, 2009 7:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where is the "common good" in WAR and especially financing GENOCIDE, like we're doing in Gaza by having to send over 4 billion of OUR TAXES to the murdering Israelis?
That alone would make a good start on Nationalized Health care, that they're always whining they don't have the money for!
Whatever happened to "No taxation without Representation"? ?
Time for another REVOLUTION, not more Repug-lite!
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» RE: No Taxation without Representation!
Posted by: freelyb
» Decentralize!
Posted by: tjg1984
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jan 12, 2009 7:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The last eight years of mostly you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours between the executive and legislative branches were a disaster. Now, the demoboobs are fully invested in taking their shot at effing things up for the average person.
No thanks.
My wife and I have finally finished our education, we've finally saved enough to be looking to buy into a house with ~30% equity from day one, and we've done it without running up credit card debt, massive student loans, or tearing each other down. You fools who have perptrated this so-called "crisis"--which is another way of saying that your stupid credit card has hit its limit, finally--don't deserve a bail out. If you made foolish decisions with your future, you should eat beans for a while. I did as a kid--they're better for you than twinkies, anyway.
It sickens my heart to see several million greedy, ignorant fools and a handful of bastards and crooks at a few financial institutions shake this country to its foundation. TARP was an awful idea. Our government getting into the auto business is NOT a legitimate function of government.
No thanks to any more bailouts, and no thanks to mortgaging any more of our country's future to pay for our excesses today.
Slash the budgets, and then pay for what we want as we go. Prove to me you can send representatives to Congress who will spend wisely, and then ask me for more money, wisely spent.
As of right now, sending more money to be spent by a body with a 14% approval rating smacks more of desperation than any sort of "plan". At least if I'd sent my money to Congress' private sector analog--Madoff--I could ask for a tax break due to theft. I am not, however, that foolish with my money. I only wish the same of my fellows.
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» RE: No thanks. Taxes are taxing, and neither the party of money and power, nor the party...
Posted by: sausage
» Nice. "Love it or leave it!" Which bumper sticker did you get that conservative mantra, from...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Obviously, you don't love your country...
Posted by: sausage
» Meh. You and your flag lapel pins and stupid taxes can go...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» That was refreshing.
Posted by: tjg1984
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sausage on Jan 12, 2009 7:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Without a solid middle class underpinning the economy, the rich surely won't get any richer. They might even get a little poorer.
It's their duty, as good citizens, to pay their fair share for the continued fiscal health and well-being of the national economy which, in the long run, tends to make them even richer still.
And if any members of the upper one percent club do not feel they owe the greater society anything, here's my suggestion on what they should do: Put yer shoes on and get the hell outta my country.
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Posted by: Wayne Etheridge on Jan 12, 2009 8:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» pelosi and reid aren't liberals...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» Thanks for correcting me.
Posted by: Wayne Etheridge
» Don't Earn $150K ? ... You Won't Have To Pay More Taxes ...
Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: Don't Earn $150K ? ... You Won't Have To Pay More Taxes ...
Posted by: EdinIowa
» I do agree we need to tax the uber-wealthy. We also need to make sure that
Posted by: Wayne Etheridge
» RE: I do agree we need to tax the uber-wealthy. We also need to make sure that
Posted by: EdinIowa
» I don't generally use such strong language, but...
Posted by: tjg1984
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Jan 12, 2009 8:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As just a very small example, my state taxes are used in part to keep our rural roads graded and graveled. If all the neighbors on my back road got together and paid to just put gravel on as often as is needed, it would cost us much more than all our taxes combined. So maybe the state government does use some of its revenue to fund (for example) educational administrators' conventions. If the money went to private industries instead, it would very likely pay for huge CEO salaries and other perks and the services provided would cost considerably more. (And, yes, it might generate some jobs, but so does government money - someone has to grade the road no matter who they work for.)
If the US had a government paid universal health care system, we might all have to pay more taxes, but I am absolutely convinced that it would not mean an increase in taxes of $12,000 per year (the amount it costs just for insurance premiums in some states) plus deductibles, copays, and other medical expenses. Part of what costs Americans so much is paying the salaries and bookkeeping costs to those who work in the insurance and health care industries.
The government does not make a profit, business does. It's just like the private mercenaries who make multiples of what our troops make. It isn't that our taxes are not used to pay those mercenaries; it's that the companies contract with the government which pays them out of the same taxes that would be used to pay soldiers. In other words, our taxes help pay for private industry profits at the expense of the military. Prisons are the same way, as would be schools if the regressives had their way and they became privatized.
I have read that approximately 85% of US companies don't pay income tax because they base their operations in places like off-shore islands outside of US jurisdiction (as well as using other loopholes). Does anyone have more information on this subject? It seems to be a pretty high estimate, but I've heard it more than once.
I find it to be rather amazing that the neocons and other regressive rightwingers keep insisting that cutting taxes boosts the economy and hardly anyone challenges them when they say this. Recently on CNN, a Republican congresswoman was interviewed about the financial situation (can't remember who she was), and she announced that tax cuts increase ecomonic growth. The interviewer was John Roberts, and I've seen him challenge someone many times when he or she said something questionable. But he never even questioned this absurd statement.
Of course it's possible to overtax people, and it's also important that our taxes really are used for the common good. And although it's nearly impossible to entirely eliminate waste, corruption, and pork spending, I'd rather see some government waste than have my money go to increase the wealth and power of CEOs and multinational corporate interests.
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» RE: A few thoughts
Posted by: Lilly
» You have more choices than that.
Posted by: tjg1984
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fanny666 on Jan 12, 2009 8:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fiscal Bang for the Buck
One-year $ change in real GDP per $ reduction in federal tax revenue or increase in spending.
Tax Cuts
Nonrefundable Lump-Sum Tax Rebate 1.02
Refundable Lump-Sum Tax Rebate 1.26
Temporary Tax Cuts
Payroll Tax Holiday 1.29
Across the Board Tax Cut 1.03
Accelerated Depreciation 0.27
Permanent Tax Cuts
Extend Alternative Minimum Tax Patch 0.48
Make Bush Income Tax Cuts Permanent 0.29
Make Dividend and Capital Gains Tax Cuts Permanent 0.37
Cut Corporate Tax Rate 0.30
Spending Increases
Extend Unemployment Insurance Benefits 1.64
Temporarily Increase Food Stamps 1.73
Issue General Aid to State Governments 1.36
Increase Infrastructure Spending 1.59
Source: Moody's Economy.com
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» Doesn't that--in totality--partly presume that you, your dumbass neighbor, or ...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Doesn't that--in totality--partly presume that you, your dumbass neighbor, or ...
Posted by: fanny666
» I should also say...
Posted by: fanny666
Comments are closed-
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Jan 12, 2009 9:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: people fail to see the other side of taxes...
Posted by: Wayne Etheridge
» RE: people fail to see the other side of taxes...
Posted by: EdinIowa
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Posted by: lewb on Jan 12, 2009 10:56 AM
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» Make a proposal
Posted by: billwald
» RE: Make a proposal
Posted by: dover23
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Posted by: lewb on Jan 12, 2009 10:56 AM
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Posted by: billwald on Jan 12, 2009 11:11 AM
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How many actually paid this rate? I suspect none. Real rich people don't have taxable income except pocket change. They have a max 15% capital gains tax on what they spend. How much does a person with a $billion in assets spend? How much more than a person with $100 million? Ten bucks? Bottom line is that the $900 million is NEVER taxed except for death taxes and it is $9 Billion by then.
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» RE: how many people actually paid the 88% marginal tax rate?
Posted by: EdinIowa
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Posted by: constitution, what constitution on Jan 12, 2009 11:13 AM
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1. Income taxes are unconstutional. Then again the majority of our laws are today, so that doesn't really matter.
2. Define rich. All these comments throw around "tax the rich/wealthy" without giving an actual number which would define a person/family as wealthy. Personally I believe this number should vary across the country due to cost of living. Just because I make more than "Joe the Plumber" (also a favorite phrase of these comments) does not mean my standard of living is that much greater than his.
3. Demanding a responsible government is more important than raising taxes. Hell, cut the War on Drugs, War on Terror, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. and we could fund single payer health care, renewable energy research, etc. (which create jobs and bolster our economy; without raising taxes!)
4. Public works arguments: I have no problem paying a toll for a road. At least then I'll know my money is going to upkeep the road I use as opposed to Federal Abstinence Only Education Programs.
5. Cut/Reposition Federal jobs. Run the Government like a private corporation. Cut useless departments and reposition their employees. Cut or retrain employees with poor performance. No sense wasting tax dollars on multiple departments which provide the same services.
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Posted by: BCcovers on Jan 12, 2009 11:34 AM
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One of the biggest mistakes made by Herbert Hoover was cutting government spending and freezing tax rates or raising them in some sectors. This is widely regarded as having exacerbated the great depression. At the time there was an outspoken economist named John Maynard Keynes who balked at such a premise and stated (in short) that in order to encourage growth, the government must spend more (this means more government jobs, public works, etc.) and also cut taxes at the same time in order to create growth in the private sector and cheaper prices for consumers. The idea of running a deficit in rough economic times seemed (and still seems to some) counter-intuitive. However, the flip side of the coin is that the government should do just the opposite (raise taxes and decrease spending) during times of extremely fast growth in order to curb inflation. Unfortunately, when times are good no one wants higher taxes and people (and our government is made of people) tend to spend $ like drunken sailors.
FDR took a chance and listened to Keynsian economic doctrine as he crafted the New Deal. This, along with the arrivial of WWII took us out of the Depression. Now, every recession and time in history is different, however it seems to me to be common sense not to raise taxes in a recession when we know what the results were when we tried this before. At the very least we should look back at history and see what has worked and what hasn't worked. We know, without a doubt, that raising taxes does not produce growth and is a toxic activity to engage in during a recession. Hoover proved that raising taxes (the Revenue act of 1932)during economic times is very very bad. History might not tell us exactly what we should do in this situation, but it does give us a strong warning of what not to do.
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» Then when do you raise taxes?
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Then when do you raise taxes?
Posted by: BCcovers
» You'll notice that Clinton raised taxes
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: You'll notice that Clinton raised taxes
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: You'll notice that Clinton raised taxes
Posted by: BCcovers
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Posted by: Lilly on Jan 12, 2009 3:21 PM
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» Since when do Republicans teach that taxation is theft?
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: centure7 on Jan 12, 2009 3:34 PM
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Corporate tax is a 10% tax ON THE POOR. Notice how basic needs corporations are taxed at the same rate as corporations that make luxury goods. And who pays in the end every last penny of the taxes? Well lets see... corporations get their money in the end from who... oh yeah everyday people like you and me when we go to the store to buy stuff. So corporations that sell NEEDS like food, water, and clothing, pay taxes at the same rate as WANTS like jewelery stores. And on top of that you actually have to pay sales tax in most states on ALL of food, shelter, and clothing!
So lets see we have a 10% basic needs corporate tax + a 16% social security tax... that is already 26% on the poorest of the poor, with no way to avoid it!
Now states are talking about a miles tax applied to each mile driven in place of a gasoline tax. First, what the state does is force you to put a tracking device so they can track your every move by GPS. Next, they tax you for every mile driven. This way, the fat-cats in state government don't have to worry about that sharp and painful gas tax when they drive around their Hummer. Instead they can take great joy in the fact people who paid $3,000 for their used 30MPG Toyota have to pay another $3,000 in milage tax at the same rate as the $85,000 Hummer driver.
Talk about regression! And lets not forget that Obama may not even repeal the GW Bush tax breaks for the ultra-rich! What a total loser if he does at least do that!
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» RE: Politicians are only interested in tax on the poor!
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Politicians are only interested in tax on the poor!
Posted by: centure7
» RE: Politicians are only interested in tax on the poor!
Posted by: EdinIowa
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Posted by: pdxjoe on Jan 12, 2009 5:20 PM
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Posted by: centure7 on Jan 12, 2009 5:55 PM
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I know its true they didn't specifically say "national taxes" but you could tell by what the article focused on (Obama for example) that they meant a giant encompassing national tax.
Maybe the states who got hosed with the bad debts can go screw themself with higher taxes while those states such as the one I live in who acted responsibly won't have to get screwed over with the burden of higher taxes?
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» RE: Why is Alternet so obsessed with GARGANTUAN governments?
Posted by: wrinklemomma
» Actually...
Posted by: tjg1984
» RE: Why is Alternet so obsessed with GARGANTUAN governments?
Posted by: Lilly
» You can't be serious.
Posted by: tjg1984
» Great idea!
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: Mailtrain on Jan 12, 2009 7:23 PM
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» RE: Taxes are a form of federal slavery
Posted by: Lilly
» Unfortunately, I think you're right.
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: wrinklemomma on Jan 12, 2009 7:56 PM
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Posted by: willymack on Jan 12, 2009 8:13 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Single payer universal health care (drug & insurance companies had better stay away).
2. Universal education through college for those academically qualified.
3. A plebisite system whereby we, the people vote on whether we make war on another country. Let's face it; congress can't be trusted with this.
4. A Constitutional Convention. If the ONLY thing coming out of this is the elimination of the hopelessly corrupt Electoral College, it'll be well worth it.
5. A whole new economy. The current one SUCKS. Maybe if there was no money.
6. A vote of "NO Confidence" by the people for the purpose of getting rid of trash like cheney/bush. Again, the congress can't be trusted with this.
I don't want to hear any crap about why we can't do any of this. We're the CAN DO country, remember?
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» RE: I'm willing to pay 50% of my income in taxes... me too
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: DaBear on Jan 12, 2009 10:43 PM
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But I got confused by this: Why are we so resistant to raising taxes?
It's our nature. Nobody likes to give up their personal money for the common good.
I had a Quaker great grandfather who used to look forward to paying his income taxes. [Cue the alien insults and irascible laughter and catcalls] I looked forward to it as well... until I went beyond my altruistic urges and realized that a Government of, by, and for the owning-class in the US of A has no interest in the common good like I do. They abuse the tax system for their own personal good and then indoctrinate their sycophantic middlings and working class serfs with a mythology of lies and self-serving red herrings in order to perpetuate their plunder of others less fortunate (or criminal) than themselves.
Ideally, I LOVE paying taxes on my income. It's not a hell of a lot different than the private money I donate every year to non-profits who are altruistic in nature... even when I honestly cannot really afford to do so.
It would just hurt a lot less if the common good was actually served by those taxes instead of my private money going into the pockets of owning-classers who cheat us all (never mind the military soldier cult).
Earlier in this awesome piece, I latched onto this gem:
Rich people can't be trusted with too much money. If they have too much easy cash around, they get conned into Ponzi schemes, they go for quick money deals, they get suckered into bubbles, and then the whole economy crashes.
I totally agree. Just spend time with the owning class and any reasonable human being would be shocked at what passes for "common sense" among that group... and after 8 years of looting the commons and most everyone else's privates... they're the ONLY ones in power now. They hold all our cards and they think it's perfectly fine to flush them for us.
1789, baby....
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» 1776, baby.
Posted by: tjg1984
» RE: Nobody? I knew I landed on the wrong planet.....
Posted by: BCcovers
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Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Jan 14, 2009 3:35 AM
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Eisenhower screwed it up. 1958 was a depression year. Harry's standard answer to any question was likely to be "more democracy".
This is our problem. We have too little democracy. Individually selfish men will not work together for a common cause. The nation and the body politic suffers.
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Posted by: gellero1 on Jan 15, 2009 10:54 PM
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» RE: 90% Marginal Rates
Posted by: Defenestrator
When Will Obama Stop Trying to Work with Republicans?
Sarah Palin Aims to Bust Up the Republican Party -- And the Tea Party Movement
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