COMMENTS: 183
Mel Gibson Is Wrong about Who the Violent Americans Are
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Like many Central Americans born and categorized as mestizos (mixed Indian and Spanish blood), I watched Apocalypto as someone who consciously revered the Maya and other indigenous groups while subconsciously prohibiting himself any real identification with them.
As a boy, my parents gave me a leather case with a picture of an Indian from the region now known as El Salvador (the Savior). But I heard my father call people he considered ugly “cara de indio†(Indian face). For many of us--mestizo and non-mestizo alike--it’s always been easier to identify with the Christian culture depicted in Gibson’s film The Passion of the Christ than with the Maya culture in Apocalypto.
The fundamental problem with Apocalypto’s depiction of Maya culture is that, in a procrustean manner, it imposes violence and an apocalyptic world view on the wrong people. In fact, UC Riverside archaeologist Zachary X. Hruby wrote recently in the San Francisco Chronicle: “There exists no archaeological, historic or ethnohistoric data to suggest that any such mass sacrifices -- numbering in the thousands, or even hundreds -- took place in the Maya world.â€
Instead, Gibson should have looked for apocalyptic war and culture in the off-screen history of our Catholic, mestizo, and indigenous families in the Americas.
He could have done his homework about how Salvadoran culture sanctions my father’s use of “cara de indio†as a way to call someone ‘ugly.’ I never understood the deeper reasons for such racist remarks until my father told me what happened when he was a ten-year-old boy who climbed trees in 1932. That year, my father saw military men kill hundreds of Indians in what historians call “La Matanza†or the Killing. More than 30,000 mostly Indian peasants in El Salvador were slaughtered on the order of General Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez, a theosophist military dictator who used radio broadcasts to justify his actions by sowing apocalyptic fear. Most of the killing my father witnessed took place not far from where the fictional killing fields of Apocalypto take place. Until I asked him about it, my father remained quiet about La Matanza for more than 65 years. The fear of Indians and apocalyptic war he learned while climbing trees as a boy stayed with him and spilled onto his kids through what some psychologists call “intergenerational trauma.â€
It saddens me that the first big screen depiction of the inspired and inspiring culture of the Maya is this fatally inaccurate and very controversial film. Like the traumatized boy who became my father, millions among the current generations of Mayan, Guatemalan, Salvadoran and other Central American youth growing up in the United States and other countries are the children of apocalyptic war survivors. Most have experienced the numbing cultural effects of war; either firsthand or as the children of those who have witnessed the savagery of wars like the one in Guatemala, where apocalyptic dictator and born-again Pentecostal President Efrain Rios Montt, who famously said, “the true Christian has a Bible in one hand and a machine gun in the other,†ordered the killing and disappearance of more than 100,000, mostly Mayas. I saw how Montt used television and other media to beam the colorful biblical imagery of his apocalyptic vision as a way to cover over the massacre of innocents. He compared the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse to the four contemporary evils of hunger, misery, ignorance and subversion
Apocalypto’s depiction of the Mayas scares in its inaccuracy, but it makes sense when we consider that Gibson’s main audience belongs to a culture that reveres another very conservative actor like him, Ronald Reagan. Reagan introduced the use of media-communication skills and apocalyptic politics to advance a political agenda. He used them to justify the full arming, full funding of and political support for Montt, whom Reagan defended as “getting a bum rap.†In the name of combating “evil†and protecting the “city on a hill,†Reagan infused his foreign and domestic policy with statements like, "we may be the generation that sees Armageddon" and “I don't know if you have noted any of those prophecies lately, but, believe me, they describe the times we are going through." While filmmaker Gibson claims to offer an allegorical critique of the declining, apocalyptic civilization that feeds wars like the one in Iraq, Gibson the extreme right-wing Catholic, anti-Semite fails in Apocalypto and in all his movies to critique the very religion that has dominated apocalyptic politics for centuries.
Better than most, Gibson knows that Apocalypse sells in a culture in which born-again politicos, best-sellers like the Left Behind books and blockbuster movies like his Mad Max series or Arnold Schwarzenegger’s End of Days and the Terminator trilogy plug into the cultural and political DNA of this country, whose Puritan founders came here prepared for the end of days with Bibles and 20-ton cannons crammed into their ships.
My identity, in part, has been shaped by the effects of a culture of violence and apocalyptic war best found not so much in the stuff of Gibson’s Mayan epic, Apocalypto, but in the stuff of his Christian epic, The Passion of the Christ
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Posted by: Swatopluk on Dec 16, 2006 2:30 AM
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» RE: No proof of Maya cruelty?
Posted by: Jesse
» RE: No proof of Maya cruelty?
Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: No proof of Maya cruelty?
Posted by: leecv
» RE: No proof of Maya cruelty?
Posted by: rhinojos
» Hell in Mayan culture
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: No proof of Maya cruelty?
Posted by: Jesse
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Posted by: Intraspecto on Dec 16, 2006 2:42 AM
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While they were certainly NOT peaceful, it is funny to see a Catholic try to "redeem the faith" by making the victim of Catholic greed and ambition look like the evil party in question.
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» Not anymore!!! The evangelists are taking over that honor and distinction..... LOL
Posted by: Prophit
» Will Mel make a movie about the Protestant Reformation
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Will Mel make a movie about the Protestant Reformation
Posted by: mythbuster
» It looks like stereotyping crosses all political leanings including the liberals.... that does
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Ironic
Posted by: mythbuster
» Hahahaha, my point exactly! Thanks
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Ironic
Posted by: VHunter
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Posted by: Merchant_Of_Menace on Dec 16, 2006 2:46 AM
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Maybe this is what has been going on in American society? A hardline evangelical bloc advocating a return to the days of a church-state, where patriotism is obedience to a diety (or multiple dieties, depending on which religious fundies are in power).
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» RE: This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: Merchant_Of_Menace
» RE: This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: dannrusso
» RE: This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: kittynboi
» True, in fact in old times most states were a theocracy with the king as head of the .....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: peachmcd on Dec 16, 2006 6:19 AM
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On one hand, critics give high marks to movies with an essentially right-wing ideology at their base while carefully distancing themselves from the ideology(Independence Day, Apocalypto...). On the other hand, they'll applaud the ideals behind movies with an essentially left-wing ideology at base and then shred the movie itself (Fahrenheit 9/11, Syriana).
I've noticed this pattern for years now. You can win bets on it. What it means is less clear. I doubt there's a critical cabal that decrees such things. My hypothesis is that Americans have been so deeply enculturated with the values of violence, domination (sexual and political), revenge, and avarice that we can't help but respond viscerally to vicarious enjoyment of them on the big screen. Meanwhile, we respond with boredom and discomfort to films that reject those 'American' values, consciously critique them, or portray a different vision.
What think ye all?
Peach in Durham NC
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» RE: ncultured entertainment
Posted by: xenacat
» RE: ncultured entertainment
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: ncultured entertainment
Posted by: kittynboi
» Since the dawn of civlisation... about time it stopped...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Since the dawn of civlisation... about time it stopped...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: ncultured entertainment
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: ncultured entertainment
Posted by: Doubtom
» ITS VERY SIMPLE REALLY: VIOLENCE BREEDS VIOLENCE...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: cultured entertainment
Posted by: Iconoclast421
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Posted by: axandrade on Dec 16, 2006 7:01 AM
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» RE: "cara de indio"
Posted by: Betsyny
» RE: MEL GISON AND HIS PENCHANT FOR VIOLENT MOVIES stems from his CATHOLIC childhood
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: MEL GISON AND HIS PENCHANT FOR VIOLENT MOVIES stems from his CATHOLIC childhood
Posted by: MAD
» We certainly like to generalize, don't we...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: We certainly like to generalize, don't we...
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: "cara de indio"
Posted by: rhinojos
» This is so true. I have experienced both first hand in Mexico.
Posted by: Prophit
» This is half true. I'm from Mexico.
Posted by: Mex
» Thanks for the clarification. It was a long time ago this happened.....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Dec 16, 2006 7:34 AM
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» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: rg
» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: Betsyny
» Who knows what motivates the Pope, however, I think the issue itself is not framed correctly...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Who knows what motivates the Pope, however, I think the issue itself is not framed correctly...
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: izquerdista
» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: izquerdista
» RE: Author is inaccurate. Mexicans are very different today.
Posted by: symcokid
» Just like the MAJORITY of Americans?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: rwa
» You're the intellectual equivalent of a prick tease
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: Daniel Shays
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» Who are you, you America hater?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: rhinojos
» albrechtkrausse is WRONG
Posted by: Mex
» RE: albrechtkrausse is WRONG
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Sure I can debate you!
Posted by: Blaugaia
» RE: Sure I can debate you!
Posted by: Mex
» RE: albrechtkrausse is VERY WRONG
Posted by: Mex
» Rebuttal RE: albrechtkrausse is VERY WRONG
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Rebuttal to albrechtkrausse
Posted by: Mex
» RE: ebuttal to albrechtkrausse
Posted by: Blaugaia
» RE: ebuttal to albrechtkrausse
Posted by: wereallfukked
» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: werewolf
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Posted by: helenwheels on Dec 16, 2006 7:39 AM
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» RE: Good article
Posted by: JERSEYDAN
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Posted by: philobat on Dec 16, 2006 7:39 AM
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Hitler gets the shaft to this day for being one of the bloodiest, savage and most insane rulers (which he was), but lest we forget, Stalin and Lenin who killed many many more millions in their torterous Gulags.
The fact is humans are vile cruel, greedy, blame shifting, religion touting boobs who just cannot seem to accept one another for who we are.
I say Kill religion and end all this bloodshed once and for all. Its just all so stupid and all Mel Gibson did was show us that we haven't learned a damn thing yet, at least not as far as the governing body of society goes.
I would rather have dinner and a conversation with Adolf Hitler over George Bush, just to find out what he said to the Pope to get the Vatican to sanction his T-4 experiments (the sanctioned deaths that began the Holocaust). And it would not surprise me if it was revealed to me that it was the Vatican's idea all along.
All this finger pointing is boring, as is racisim and bigotry...So has anyone one seen Happy Feet?
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» RE: Its the old bait and switch, still alive and kicking!
Posted by: Doubtom
» Humans are vile, cruel, greedy etc etc - Yes, humans raised on VIOLENT RELIGIOUS...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Dingo, you are so darned cute!
Posted by: philobat
» RE: Its the old bait and switch, still alive and kicking!
Posted by: dingo
» RE: Its the old bait and switch, still alive and kicking!
Posted by: philobat
» Conspiracy Theories Abound!
Posted by: VHunter
» RE: Conspiracy Theories Abound!: VHunter
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: justAnEgg on Dec 16, 2006 7:41 AM
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» RE: eligions are the root of evil
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: eligions are the root of evil
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: eligions are the root of evil
Posted by: kittynboi
» Have you ever heard of "Social Engineering"????
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Have you ever heard of "Social Engineering"????
Posted by: justAnEgg
» OSTENSIBLY built on christian love....
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: eligions are the root of evil
Posted by: dingo
» So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: justAnEgg
» American culture is violent
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» American Jails and Violence -- Ooooooh!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: American Jails and Violence -- Ooooooh!
Posted by: justAnEgg
» That's absolute BS
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: That's absolute BS?
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: That's absolute BS?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» Hello Egg!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Hello Egg!
Posted by: justAnEgg
» Allow me to intrude on this love fest...
Posted by: ISlamIslam
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Posted by: ossie on Dec 16, 2006 8:29 AM
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» It has nothing to do with that inbreeding that you have no evidence takes place......
Posted by: Prophit
» greenguy
Posted by: ossie
» INBREEDING and violence...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Why do you remain in this wretched oountry?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» I've travelled all over the place...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: I've travelled all over the place...
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» I'm not talking about UTOPIA - just a NORMAL place...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Just a side note based on what you said....... the organic food business has turned into...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: greenguy
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: symcokid on Dec 16, 2006 10:01 AM
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» America's Foreign Policy is the exact same as Christian Missionary interference...
Posted by: Cathyc
» You said it!
Posted by: werewolf
» Humans to blame
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Humans to blame: YogiBear
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: CardiacRN on Dec 16, 2006 10:36 AM
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On the other hand, who is he to tell someone else what movie he should make? If you want to make a movie start doing the work, don't sit back and piss and moan about how someone else should do it for you.
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» And BOYCOTT Gibson's movies, if you don't like violent movies..
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: And BOYCOTT Gibson's movies, if you don't like violent movies..
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» BOYCOTT....
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: earthlingtn on Dec 16, 2006 10:58 AM
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» Just meant for emphasis of the real mission of the pioneers - land grabbing!
Posted by: werewolf
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Posted by: AlohaTerry on Dec 16, 2006 11:42 AM
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That being said, even the Cruelty of the Azetecs pales in comparison with the Spanish Conquistadors, the Class Slavery imposed on the Indigenous Peoples, and the Imperialism, Colonialism, and General Dysfunction of the Whites (including America, which has a LOOOOONG History of Mass Murder in the interests of "Progress" (AKA Corporate GREED!)
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» Europe could have expected
Posted by: JERSEYDAN
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Posted by: Gregor on Dec 16, 2006 12:45 PM
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» RE: Mel Gibson IS a symbol of American culture..
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: sausage on Dec 16, 2006 2:55 PM
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That being said, however, Mel Gibson engaged Maya archeologist Richard Hansen, known for his work Guatemala's Mirado Basin, as technical advisor for the film.
The current issue of Archaeology Magazine has a short interview with Hansen concerning the filming of Apocalypto.
I'll reproduce a question followed by Hansen's answer, pertinent to Mr. Lovato's above op-ed piece.
"Were the Maya as violent as they are depicted in the movie?
[Hansen] "We know warfare was going on. The Postcalssic center of Tulum is a walled city; these sites had to be in defensive positions. There was tremendous Aztec influence by this time. The Aztecs were clearly ruthless in their conquest and pursuit of sacrificial victims, a practice that spilled over into some of the Maya areas."
(page 16, Archaeology Januarey/February 2007)
Say what you will about Mel Gibson's politics, religion and drunken anti-Semitic outbursts, he is on the board of the Foucation for Anthropological Research and Environmental Studies and is promoting sustainable development for the local people of the Mirado Basin.
Movie violence aside, one of the themes of the film is environmental degradation and how human societies, many times, fall back on superstition and ritual dogma in the face of impending collapse. Overall I enjoyed the film however, the last five or less minutes were highly anachronistic and somewhat spoilt everthing that had come before.
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» RE: It's only a movie
Posted by: sausage
» RE: It's only a movie
Posted by: sausage
» RE: It's only a movie-THANK YOU!
Posted by: JamMaster
» Weren't the Mayas already gone
Posted by: JERSEYDAN
» RE: Weren't the Mayas already gone
Posted by: Jesse
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Posted by: mark on Dec 16, 2006 4:06 PM
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Maybe that's not what he was trying to do.
I think the writer started out with a strong desire to criticize Mel, and then built his story around that desire. Not saying any of his facts are wrong, but his prejudices are showing.
oh aaand, movies are movies, and are NEVER beholden to historical reality.
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» Let he who is perfect cast the first stone regarding Mel.........
Posted by: Prophit
» What actually happened to Christ?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: What actually happened to Christ?
Posted by: mark
» Wow, thats a leap,,, is there something in your history you wish to discuss????
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Let he who is perfect cast the first stone regarding Mel.........Prophit
Posted by: Basenjis
» Well, I don't know about this movie since I haven't seen it.... but
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: nigredo on Dec 16, 2006 5:44 PM
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If one focuses too much on the aspects of the film that could be construed as racially offensive he/she looses sight of the film's overall message.
Yes much more violence, bloodshed and oppresion ensued after the arival of Europeans, but the subject of the film was how great societies loose their way, get corrupted from within and then eventually fall vulnerable to outside forces.
Mr. Gibson could have made a study of the Romans, the Babylonians, and countless other empires that have faded into history, but he chose a society in continental Americas to prove a point; that what can occur on the other side of the Atlantic can also occur here. Mr. Gibson has intimated such a message by comparing ( I believe incorrectly) the alleged human sacrifice rituals of the Maya to the wars in Iraq.
Lastly, one cannot be overly critical of Mr. Gibson's depictions of the Maya because almost all films that depict other cultures tend to fall into one of two categories: the over-romanticization of indigenous people and gross objectification. In looking at the film we should focus on the humanization of the protagonist, Jaguar Paw and his drive to return to his family because that is a common factor amongst all humans.
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» RE: The film is an allegory; don't take it too seriously.
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: The film is an allegory; don't take it too seriously.
Posted by: vangogh69
» But Gibson is a Catholic, after all...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: But Gibson is a Catholic, after all...
Posted by: nigredo
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Posted by: abarbarag on Dec 16, 2006 10:13 PM
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» RE: PROFIT PROFIT!!!!
Posted by: twocreeks
» As I stated clearly and often..... I have not seen the movie, but having seen the passion....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: rtdrury on Dec 17, 2006 10:25 AM
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Posted by: liberal is good on Dec 17, 2006 11:28 AM
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"Gibson the extreme right-wing Catholic, anti-Semite fails in Apocalypto and in all his movies to critique the very religion that has dominated apocalyptic politics for centuries."
Violence and propaganda, and brainwashing, yup that's a mix.
You are surprised that Gibson is still blaming everyone but the Christians for the violence anywhere in history? He is a small, delusional man with too much time on his hands too much money. And if current day Americans are as ignorant and easily lead by him as they are politically, well we are in big trouble.
Ignorance is the only thing that allows the rewriting of history, fiction as fact, George Orwell and Aldous Huxley worlds come to life.
Gibson is part of the culture that wishes to rewrite history.
At the least redirect your vision so the truth can not be revealed.
the type of violence he depicts in his movie even if true to that level, is still nothing compared to Christian violence against the Maya, or through out history, can we say Inquisition? The sacrifices that we know of were of a religious nature. To appease the Gods if you will, grow the harvest.
What do we have with the Spanish who arrive and their violence?
It is for self aggrandizement, wealth, gold, conquering and destroying
an indigenous culture.
The quote from President Efrain Rios Montt is so true that “the true Christian has a a Bible in one hand and a machine gun in the other”. Of course this is nothing to be proud of, more to the point it is a frightening truth and the cause of so much killing and hatred, like “in the name of God.” That is not the privilege for christians only it is for all the big religions, Judaism, and Islam... all have and do Kill in the name of God and to them it is all the justification needed.
But if they followed one quote, in their daily lives all would change,
“What you do to the least of them you do to me”.No matter what master (in this case Jesus) said this it is a lesson for life that all should follow and for Christian’s how convenient that for thousands of years they have ignored this.... a statement from Jesus, whom they say is the be all and end all, and must be followed... unless there’s some land or gold, you might want then we can negotiate.
Gibson could never do an honest, movie of the history of Christians and indigenous people, then he would have to own up to the truth and he and people like him don’t do that. Reality would flood into their fantasy the truth would have to be faced and that will not happen, for they must be right and that comes at big cost to humanity.
His type of Christianity and violence are one in the same, It is their sad history, Christianity and God, that’s not what these people are about
I have to say after reading some of the blogs here, the argument seems to be who was more violent and how to justify that. Because the Maya or Aztecs were a violent people, what the Christians did throughout history is ok? Or because some Muslim extremists have defiled Allah with death and destruction it’s ok for us to get that low.
OR VISA VERSA ..... NO, NO, NO
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» RE: Oh no I can be more violent than you, Oh no I can No I...
Posted by: mark
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Posted by: geoff_canuck on Dec 17, 2006 12:59 PM
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Posted by: Sinemeh on Dec 17, 2006 1:23 PM
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
— Beyond Good and Evil
By placing this movie in its proper historical context; indeed, there has been an unrelenting campain by occultists (Demon invoking, and worshipers) working within the Vatican, such as: the Jesuits, Teutonic Knights, and other Chilvary Orders of the European Royal dynasties, other occultists such as the Skull and Bones, Scroll and Keys societies of Yale, and Scottish Rite Masons, etc. (too many to name) to discredit the cultures of indigenous peoples around the earth for centuries, and this movie is simply follows in this pattern. In fact, these occult societies, with their finance controls the Entertainment industry as a means of mind conditioning, and control of populations. In essence, this film simply is another in the line of pychological projections, of "Western Civilization;" i.e. The Shadow of Jungian psychology, and is no different than the glorification of the terriorist organization, the Ku Klux Clan in the movie A Birth of a Nation which initiated the "Hollywood" era.
Meaning, I by the way live in Guatemala, speak some of one of the indigenous languages related to the Mayan tongue called Quiche, and; likewise, reject the theories of so-called archeologists from most universities, and magazines like the National Geographic who are normally not initiates of the cultures they PROJECT themselves to be experts on. Actually, the so-called "science" of Archeology is deeply rooted in the white supremacy values, norms, and conditions to justify the Colonial invasions of Europeans into the territories of "non-white" peoples worldwide such as in the theories promoted by Gottigen University in Germany; for instance (Read: Black Athena by Martin Bernal).
What should be recognized is the Occultists behind people like Mel Gibson who allow for movies such as his to be financed, and internationally distributed must continue on their centuries long discrediting campaigns because the spiritual systems of the indigenous peoples contain powers which would render the occultists satanic rituals impotent, and; thereby, spiritually empower people from becomming the mind conditioned operative slaves which is the true agenda of these occultists.
Do not waste your time worrying about whether, or not the Mayans practiced Human Sacrifice, or, indeed, whether it was; actually, Capital Punishment, as is any's societies right when its laws are violated. First, learn about the Mayan people's Medicine, their Mathematics, their Social Organization, their Archetecture, their Astrology/Astronomy, their Social Institutions, their Agriculture techniques, their Spiritual/Physics, their Aesthetics, and their Cosmology, and then whatever else not understood would be placed within its proper context, and from a Mayan perspective. Otherwise, you are simply being deceived by people who are well practiced in mass mind control. Maltyox showay.
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» WHITE MAN'S SUPREMACY....
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: vangogh69 on Dec 17, 2006 2:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Considering that current world history contains many stories of mass murder, enslavement, and warfare, why go back hundreds of years? Surely, Austrailia is ripe with stories as is the USA. Maybe he could turn his attention to the Puritans who fled persecution in England only to come here and terrorize natives and later, blacks?
The Passion was I believe the world's first big, bloody, and great Christian/Catholic horror film. It's a "great" piece of sadism and whatever else people want to make out of it, the film is about blood, torture, punishment. I found it odd, at the time, that so many Christians flocked to it in all earnestness (even taking their kids!) when these same folks flipped out at Janet Jackson's exposed breast during the Superbowl. But then, to mis-quote Lenny Bruce: "A naked woman is only acceptable to the viewing public if her body's been mutilated." Anyway, Gibson is a horror-film director and perhaps one day, cineophiles will appreciate (or ridicule) his work as such.
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» RE: It's odd - but that's just it about so-called Christians: they LOVE pain and suffering..
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: hole11 on Dec 17, 2006 5:40 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a man's movie about man deciding his own destiny. Gibson told a story of how things might of been for an Aztec like culture that grew to dominate a smarter culture. Could happen anywhere at anytime.
If Gibson is truly anti-semitic he would of done a move about the crusades, Inquisition, English expelling the jews before Cromwell, or how the germans felt they were betrayed by them at Versailles.
If anything this film is anti-capital punishment as the aztec culture dominated through a planned killing of outsiders. What was missing was their sport that had death involved with it. Otherwise this movie was good escapism but I personally don't like chase films.
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Posted by: twocreeks on Dec 17, 2006 6:06 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, I loved Apocalypto. As one of the very rare (try "The Fast Runner") films using a native language, it is a dramatic and spectacular effort by Mel Gibson. If we were talking thousands of films in native languages, with diversity in outlook and style, well, then Gibson's film MIGHT (and I said MIGHT!) be rationally seen as violent, inaccurate, etc. But believe me, the humor, the characters, and the point that the small girl who faces the captors and recites the apocalypse legend is incredible and so human (and how could it not be?) - after all America, a few small lines here and there (Bill of Rights, etc.) have defined this entire nation, with its incredible inconsistancies, brutality, and diversities in rational thought and unspeakably vile superstitions and racial attitudes as well. Gibsons's work is incredible here, be Gibson as he may.
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» KNow what?
Posted by: JERSEYDAN
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Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on Dec 17, 2006 6:59 PM
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Posted by: Blaugaia on Dec 17, 2006 9:53 PM
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» RE: I can debate you, sure
Posted by: Mex
» RE: I can debate you, sure
Posted by: Blaugaia
» RE: I can debate you, sure
Posted by: Blaugaia
» albrechtkrausse is VERY WRONG
Posted by: Mex
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Dec 18, 2006 9:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The father was a Holocaust denier, not the son.
Ah but he did direct a very Catholic passion play, THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST. And he was viciously raked over the coals by a lot of very prominent Jewish Americans among the media elites.
And only AFTER this public scourging does Mad Mel slam down a few too many Margaritas, and allow all that simmering anger to spill out onto a California Highway Patrol Officer.
So, before he makes the Jesus movie and gets slammed by half the liberal Jews in Hollywood and New York, Mad Mel never said a drunken, unkind word about any Hebrew anywhere.
But AFTER his Jesus movie gets trashed he gets drunk ONCE and goes into a tirade about Jews, wars, etc., and suddenly he’s a raving anti-Semite and all his films become right-wing propaganda?
Mel should have kept his drunken Catholic mouth shut, but please, does the punishment fit the crime? APOCALYPTO is an excellent film about man's inhumanity to man, and if it had been made by Spielberg or Scorcese the same critics would've called it the best thing since sliced fry bread.
And then the bloggers on this site make another leap of faith (pun intended) and blame all the evils of the world on Christianity? Nice to know that right-wing Christians like Mao and Pol Pot can blame their Catholic school nuns for the Cultural Revolution and the Killing Fields.
The Stalinist genocide of the Kulaks in the Ukraine can easily be blamed on Uncle Joe’s early training for the priesthood. And Hitler (who, rumor has it, was one-quarter Jewish through his paternal grandfather), well he chucked all that Catholic School crap and became obsessed with the occult and astrology, didn’t he?
Don’t kid yourselves. Violence is a HUMAN thing, not a religious thing. We don’t need racism or religion to kill each other, although people have been doing each other in for centuries in the name of God or race. We kill each other because that is our nature.
Evil men use God as an excuse to do evil. Good men are used by God to do good. These facts didn’t change when Mel made the Jesus movie.
One more historical note: The Puritans banned Passion Plays and Christmas as "too Catholic."
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Posted by: jdylarid on Dec 18, 2006 12:19 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to a Maya (from Mexico) that I heard interviewed on Pacific radio, Gibson hired hundreds of Maya as extras in the movie, and others as consultants, and seemed genuinely interested in adhering to "accuracy" whenever possible (granted, there is disagreement about what is accurate).
Apparently the film also explores the tensions between urban "high" culture (decadence, exploitation) and the simpler, pure country culture. While Gibson may be biased here, this theme, like that of corrupt rulers and priests exploiting the masses for their personal benefit, is a universal one. I think available evidence suggests it applies just as much to the Mayan world as everywhere else.
Gibson seems to make the same picture over and over: the decent man who minds whose own business and lives a peaceful life is overwhelmed by invaders and/or corrupt rulers, who are extremely violent. The hero is then forced to single-handedly fight them, using extreme violence -- or, in the case of the Passion, endure their violence. (With many scenes involving scantily-clad, grunting men...hmmm.) The Patriot (not directed by Gibson but starring him) fits here. So Apocalypto fits this same storyline onto an indigenous template.
It should also be noted that the Maya still exist. Comments both pro and con above seem to miss this. Indigenous Maya must be one of the most numerous ethno-linguistic indigenous groups left in the Americas, as they form most of the population of Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula, and the highlands of Mexico's Chiapas and Guatemala. I have traveled extensively in two of these three areas and the indigenous presence is simply ubiquitious, including the common use of various Mayan dialects. And as the author notes above, these people have suffered and continue to suffer discrimination as well as direct military and economic oppression. This story is undoubtedly more worthy of being told on film.
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» RE: Mel; and the extant Maya
Posted by: twocreeks
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Posted by: Soco on Dec 18, 2006 1:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can anyone tell me which films do not take artistic license to tell a historical story? Fact is, the Mayans weren't exactly the rosy Utopian society people originally thought they were. Fact is, Cortez had a large contingent of natives that assisted his conquest of Montezuma. Fact is, the "genocide" was principally due to disease, not warfare. Sure Cortez was brutal and ruthless, but Spain did not send a million people with Cortez's party, it was more like 500 Spaniards against millions of natives. I doubt anyone could have predicted the introduction of disease would have made such an impact. Sorry, this doesn't qualify for genocide of the noble peace loving children of the earth natives.
The interesting thing is that the Left has it's own version of revisionist historians that like to paint themselves as heros of identifying the atrocities of everyone and being victims. "I am more aware than you, I care more and it makes me better than you." Save the whales and screw the people. It's one of the few places where people try to "Out Liberal" another liberal by being more offended. If you are a minority all the better, but most likely your a self-loathing Caucasian with a college degree who intellectually better understands to plight of the minorities than the minorities themselves. Yea, when you actually meet an "Injun" you can be more offended than them, while wondering why they aren't running around in loincloth burning sage. Bonus points for having a black friend you can use as a crutch to prop up your tirades against Conservatives and people who aren't "Liberal" enough. Besides, you support Native American culture by visiting casinos once a month.
I have news for you, warfare has been a part of every culture and race on the planet, it's not restricted to one group. Slavery and genocide is not restricted to Caucasians. There is significant evidence and small and powerful groups of people throughout history controlled their people by religion and warfare for personal gain.
I had hope for AlterNet, but the quality of articles have been fluff shit like this to reinforce stupid liberal ideology rather than consider most people are in fact moderates. You are becoming a perfect mirror of the JackAsses on the right. To be liberal is to have awareness of every stupid ass issue on the planet and do nothing about it, to be conservative is acting without awareness. Each side's true enemy is themselves and anyone trying to be moderate of thought.
I get it, Mel Gibson's movie sucks ass because he is an Anti-Semite and now he's trying to say Mayans sacrificed people. If we can't destroy his reputation we'll attempt to destroy his work. For now, let's make Mel Gibson the poster boy for everything wrong in the world, until we can find another.
Who doesn't have issues to deal with? Apparently AlterNet Liberals are free of them. So many issues, so little time.
Apocalypto was a good movie, and it doesn't make me hate Jews or Mayans. It really makes me wish these types of liberals would STFU.
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» Aztecs, Mayans, Cortez...
Posted by: jdylarid
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Posted by: fitzjohn on Dec 18, 2006 2:17 PM
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Posted by: DanielT28 on Dec 19, 2006 1:21 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First of all, no human alive today was around at the time of the movie's setting... it cannot be accurate, no movie, set in the past, will ever be accurate, or even present time...
To those complaining about accuracy... were you alive then? Are you so sure that you know exactly what life was like then?
Beyond that, a lot of Mayans were actually involved in the making of the film. Mayans of those days did have human sacrifices, when things were bad, to please the gods, etc... many people have done this or similar, throughout history... but the main character and his fellow villagers were presented in a very positive human light, though not a part of the main Mayan city, they were obviously a part of the people of the region...
The movie was actually very political, showing the urban elite's decadence, resource (natural and human) exploitation, diverting personal responsibility to an impersonal god, etc... I'm sure you get the point. These rulers exploited their people for their own benefit, sound familiar?
BTW... When the priest was sacrificing, I felt that he knew about the eclipse, and took advantage of it, as a tool for controling the people... as if he was appeasing the god...
The movie also has a theme of fear. Jaguar Paw, the main character, had to abandon his fear and basically do what he needed to do. When the Mayan warriors became fearful, they suffered... it depicted the Mayans, as fearing for their life (disease, bad crops, dwindling resources, etc.), basically when you live in fear you get jacked... and as the Mayans came and jacked his village, and others, in the end the Spaniards (on boats with MILITARY men and RELGIOUS men) showed up... and how did Jaguar Paw react? his wife says "should we go to them?" Jaguar Paw says "let's go to the forest and look for a new beginning"
To me, Mel actually equates the Spanish with the Mayan... one corrupt, declining nation comes and ravages his village, then another comes... you know the story.
I think Mel did a great job, but keep in mind, this movie was NOT about the Mayans. The story was about corruption, fear, courage, politics, etc.... the story is the story...
I know that plenty of people hate Mel, but stop for a minute and look at his ideas and his story. Realize that he is a man, and like other men he has his good side and his bad side. He has his faults and he has changed over time, like everything does. For those that equate him with the catholic church, did you know that he believes that Jews, Muslims, etc. can "get into" heaven? Doesn't that strike anyone as odd that a "Catholic" would think that?
Anyway...
To say that any group of people are a particular way is incorrect. I'm sure the Mayan people changed over time, as does everything in existence. I'm sure that during certain time periods certain Mayans were really great people... does that mean every single Mayan throughout time has been a great, benevolent, intelligent person? No... but in the same light, that does not mean that every single Mayan throughout time has been corrupt, savage, etc... the same applies to the Spanish, European, Asian, African, whatever... I'm sure that India, in it's day, had some viciousness of it's own, as every other large nation ruled by a small group of elites, with ignorant, unengaged citizens...
Watch the movie again, or for the first time, without looking for ways to prove how bad of a job Mel did, or how accurate/inaccurate it is... just see the story as it is...
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Posted by: folkdude01 on Dec 20, 2006 2:24 PM
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» RE: if mel gibson is wrong in his movie, then show some facts
Posted by: Tomaguey
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Posted by: Swatopluk on Dec 16, 2006 2:30 AM
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» RE: No proof of Maya cruelty?
Posted by: Jesse
» RE: No proof of Maya cruelty?
Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: No proof of Maya cruelty?
Posted by: leecv
» RE: No proof of Maya cruelty?
Posted by: rhinojos
» Hell in Mayan culture
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: No proof of Maya cruelty?
Posted by: Jesse
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Posted by: Intraspecto on Dec 16, 2006 2:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While they were certainly NOT peaceful, it is funny to see a Catholic try to "redeem the faith" by making the victim of Catholic greed and ambition look like the evil party in question.
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» Not anymore!!! The evangelists are taking over that honor and distinction..... LOL
Posted by: Prophit
» Will Mel make a movie about the Protestant Reformation
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Will Mel make a movie about the Protestant Reformation
Posted by: mythbuster
» It looks like stereotyping crosses all political leanings including the liberals.... that does
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Ironic
Posted by: mythbuster
» Hahahaha, my point exactly! Thanks
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Ironic
Posted by: VHunter
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Posted by: Merchant_Of_Menace on Dec 16, 2006 2:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe this is what has been going on in American society? A hardline evangelical bloc advocating a return to the days of a church-state, where patriotism is obedience to a diety (or multiple dieties, depending on which religious fundies are in power).
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» RE: This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: Merchant_Of_Menace
» RE: This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: dannrusso
» RE: This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: kittynboi
» True, in fact in old times most states were a theocracy with the king as head of the .....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: peachmcd on Dec 16, 2006 6:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On one hand, critics give high marks to movies with an essentially right-wing ideology at their base while carefully distancing themselves from the ideology(Independence Day, Apocalypto...). On the other hand, they'll applaud the ideals behind movies with an essentially left-wing ideology at base and then shred the movie itself (Fahrenheit 9/11, Syriana).
I've noticed this pattern for years now. You can win bets on it. What it means is less clear. I doubt there's a critical cabal that decrees such things. My hypothesis is that Americans have been so deeply enculturated with the values of violence, domination (sexual and political), revenge, and avarice that we can't help but respond viscerally to vicarious enjoyment of them on the big screen. Meanwhile, we respond with boredom and discomfort to films that reject those 'American' values, consciously critique them, or portray a different vision.
What think ye all?
Peach in Durham NC
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» RE: ncultured entertainment
Posted by: xenacat
» RE: ncultured entertainment
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: ncultured entertainment
Posted by: kittynboi
» Since the dawn of civlisation... about time it stopped...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Since the dawn of civlisation... about time it stopped...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: ncultured entertainment
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: ncultured entertainment
Posted by: Doubtom
» ITS VERY SIMPLE REALLY: VIOLENCE BREEDS VIOLENCE...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: cultured entertainment
Posted by: Iconoclast421
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Posted by: axandrade on Dec 16, 2006 7:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: "cara de indio"
Posted by: Betsyny
» RE: MEL GISON AND HIS PENCHANT FOR VIOLENT MOVIES stems from his CATHOLIC childhood
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: MEL GISON AND HIS PENCHANT FOR VIOLENT MOVIES stems from his CATHOLIC childhood
Posted by: MAD
» We certainly like to generalize, don't we...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: We certainly like to generalize, don't we...
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: "cara de indio"
Posted by: rhinojos
» This is so true. I have experienced both first hand in Mexico.
Posted by: Prophit
» This is half true. I'm from Mexico.
Posted by: Mex
» Thanks for the clarification. It was a long time ago this happened.....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Dec 16, 2006 7:34 AM
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» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: rg
» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: Betsyny
» Who knows what motivates the Pope, however, I think the issue itself is not framed correctly...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Who knows what motivates the Pope, however, I think the issue itself is not framed correctly...
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: izquerdista
» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: izquerdista
» RE: Author is inaccurate. Mexicans are very different today.
Posted by: symcokid
» Just like the MAJORITY of Americans?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: rwa
» You're the intellectual equivalent of a prick tease
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: Daniel Shays
» RE: Just like the MAJORITY of ALL Americans?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» Who are you, you America hater?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: rhinojos
» albrechtkrausse is WRONG
Posted by: Mex
» RE: albrechtkrausse is WRONG
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Sure I can debate you!
Posted by: Blaugaia
» RE: Sure I can debate you!
Posted by: Mex
» RE: albrechtkrausse is VERY WRONG
Posted by: Mex
» Rebuttal RE: albrechtkrausse is VERY WRONG
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Rebuttal to albrechtkrausse
Posted by: Mex
» RE: ebuttal to albrechtkrausse
Posted by: Blaugaia
» RE: ebuttal to albrechtkrausse
Posted by: wereallfukked
» RE: Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: werewolf
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Posted by: helenwheels on Dec 16, 2006 7:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Good article
Posted by: JERSEYDAN
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Posted by: philobat on Dec 16, 2006 7:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitler gets the shaft to this day for being one of the bloodiest, savage and most insane rulers (which he was), but lest we forget, Stalin and Lenin who killed many many more millions in their torterous Gulags.
The fact is humans are vile cruel, greedy, blame shifting, religion touting boobs who just cannot seem to accept one another for who we are.
I say Kill religion and end all this bloodshed once and for all. Its just all so stupid and all Mel Gibson did was show us that we haven't learned a damn thing yet, at least not as far as the governing body of society goes.
I would rather have dinner and a conversation with Adolf Hitler over George Bush, just to find out what he said to the Pope to get the Vatican to sanction his T-4 experiments (the sanctioned deaths that began the Holocaust). And it would not surprise me if it was revealed to me that it was the Vatican's idea all along.
All this finger pointing is boring, as is racisim and bigotry...So has anyone one seen Happy Feet?
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» RE: Its the old bait and switch, still alive and kicking!
Posted by: Doubtom
» Humans are vile, cruel, greedy etc etc - Yes, humans raised on VIOLENT RELIGIOUS...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Dingo, you are so darned cute!
Posted by: philobat
» RE: Its the old bait and switch, still alive and kicking!
Posted by: dingo
» RE: Its the old bait and switch, still alive and kicking!
Posted by: philobat
» Conspiracy Theories Abound!
Posted by: VHunter
» RE: Conspiracy Theories Abound!: VHunter
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: justAnEgg on Dec 16, 2006 7:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: eligions are the root of evil
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: eligions are the root of evil
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: eligions are the root of evil
Posted by: kittynboi
» Have you ever heard of "Social Engineering"????
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Have you ever heard of "Social Engineering"????
Posted by: justAnEgg
» OSTENSIBLY built on christian love....
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: eligions are the root of evil
Posted by: dingo
» So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: justAnEgg
» American culture is violent
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: So why did you come to such a violent country? And why do you stay?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» American Jails and Violence -- Ooooooh!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: American Jails and Violence -- Ooooooh!
Posted by: justAnEgg
» That's absolute BS
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: That's absolute BS?
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: That's absolute BS?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» Hello Egg!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Hello Egg!
Posted by: justAnEgg
» Allow me to intrude on this love fest...
Posted by: ISlamIslam
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ossie on Dec 16, 2006 8:29 AM
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» It has nothing to do with that inbreeding that you have no evidence takes place......
Posted by: Prophit
» greenguy
Posted by: ossie
» INBREEDING and violence...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Why do you remain in this wretched oountry?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» I've travelled all over the place...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: I've travelled all over the place...
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» I'm not talking about UTOPIA - just a NORMAL place...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Just a side note based on what you said....... the organic food business has turned into...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: greenguy
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: symcokid on Dec 16, 2006 10:01 AM
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» America's Foreign Policy is the exact same as Christian Missionary interference...
Posted by: Cathyc
» You said it!
Posted by: werewolf
» Humans to blame
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Humans to blame: YogiBear
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: CardiacRN on Dec 16, 2006 10:36 AM
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On the other hand, who is he to tell someone else what movie he should make? If you want to make a movie start doing the work, don't sit back and piss and moan about how someone else should do it for you.
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» And BOYCOTT Gibson's movies, if you don't like violent movies..
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: And BOYCOTT Gibson's movies, if you don't like violent movies..
Posted by: ISlamIslam
» BOYCOTT....
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: earthlingtn on Dec 16, 2006 10:58 AM
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» Just meant for emphasis of the real mission of the pioneers - land grabbing!
Posted by: werewolf
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Posted by: AlohaTerry on Dec 16, 2006 11:42 AM
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That being said, even the Cruelty of the Azetecs pales in comparison with the Spanish Conquistadors, the Class Slavery imposed on the Indigenous Peoples, and the Imperialism, Colonialism, and General Dysfunction of the Whites (including America, which has a LOOOOONG History of Mass Murder in the interests of "Progress" (AKA Corporate GREED!)
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» Europe could have expected
Posted by: JERSEYDAN
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Posted by: Gregor on Dec 16, 2006 12:45 PM
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» RE: Mel Gibson IS a symbol of American culture..
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: sausage on Dec 16, 2006 2:55 PM
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That being said, however, Mel Gibson engaged Maya archeologist Richard Hansen, known for his work Guatemala's Mirado Basin, as technical advisor for the film.
The current issue of Archaeology Magazine has a short interview with Hansen concerning the filming of Apocalypto.
I'll reproduce a question followed by Hansen's answer, pertinent to Mr. Lovato's above op-ed piece.
"Were the Maya as violent as they are depicted in the movie?
[Hansen] "We know warfare was going on. The Postcalssic center of Tulum is a walled city; these sites had to be in defensive positions. There was tremendous Aztec influence by this time. The Aztecs were clearly ruthless in their conquest and pursuit of sacrificial victims, a practice that spilled over into some of the Maya areas."
(page 16, Archaeology Januarey/February 2007)
Say what you will about Mel Gibson's politics, religion and drunken anti-Semitic outbursts, he is on the board of the Foucation for Anthropological Research and Environmental Studies and is promoting sustainable development for the local people of the Mirado Basin.
Movie violence aside, one of the themes of the film is environmental degradation and how human societies, many times, fall back on superstition and ritual dogma in the face of impending collapse. Overall I enjoyed the film however, the last five or less minutes were highly anachronistic and somewhat spoilt everthing that had come before.
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» RE: It's only a movie
Posted by: sausage
» RE: It's only a movie
Posted by: sausage
» RE: It's only a movie-THANK YOU!
Posted by: JamMaster
» Weren't the Mayas already gone
Posted by: JERSEYDAN
» RE: Weren't the Mayas already gone
Posted by: Jesse
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Posted by: mark on Dec 16, 2006 4:06 PM
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Maybe that's not what he was trying to do.
I think the writer started out with a strong desire to criticize Mel, and then built his story around that desire. Not saying any of his facts are wrong, but his prejudices are showing.
oh aaand, movies are movies, and are NEVER beholden to historical reality.
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» Let he who is perfect cast the first stone regarding Mel.........
Posted by: Prophit
» What actually happened to Christ?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: What actually happened to Christ?
Posted by: mark
» Wow, thats a leap,,, is there something in your history you wish to discuss????
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Let he who is perfect cast the first stone regarding Mel.........Prophit
Posted by: Basenjis
» Well, I don't know about this movie since I haven't seen it.... but
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: nigredo on Dec 16, 2006 5:44 PM
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If one focuses too much on the aspects of the film that could be construed as racially offensive he/she looses sight of the film's overall message.
Yes much more violence, bloodshed and oppresion ensued after the arival of Europeans, but the subject of the film was how great societies loose their way, get corrupted from within and then eventually fall vulnerable to outside forces.
Mr. Gibson could have made a study of the Romans, the Babylonians, and countless other empires that have faded into history, but he chose a society in continental Americas to prove a point; that what can occur on the other side of the Atlantic can also occur here. Mr. Gibson has intimated such a message by comparing ( I believe incorrectly) the alleged human sacrifice rituals of the Maya to the wars in Iraq.
Lastly, one cannot be overly critical of Mr. Gibson's depictions of the Maya because almost all films that depict other cultures tend to fall into one of two categories: the over-romanticization of indigenous people and gross objectification. In looking at the film we should focus on the humanization of the protagonist, Jaguar Paw and his drive to return to his family because that is a common factor amongst all humans.
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» RE: The film is an allegory; don't take it too seriously.
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: The film is an allegory; don't take it too seriously.
Posted by: vangogh69
» But Gibson is a Catholic, after all...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: But Gibson is a Catholic, after all...
Posted by: nigredo
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Posted by: abarbarag on Dec 16, 2006 10:13 PM
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» RE: PROFIT PROFIT!!!!
Posted by: twocreeks
» As I stated clearly and often..... I have not seen the movie, but having seen the passion....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: rtdrury on Dec 17, 2006 10:25 AM
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Posted by: liberal is good on Dec 17, 2006 11:28 AM
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"Gibson the extreme right-wing Catholic, anti-Semite fails in Apocalypto and in all his movies to critique the very religion that has dominated apocalyptic politics for centuries."
Violence and propaganda, and brainwashing, yup that's a mix.
You are surprised that Gibson is still blaming everyone but the Christians for the violence anywhere in history? He is a small, delusional man with too much time on his hands too much money. And if current day Americans are as ignorant and easily lead by him as they are politically, well we are in big trouble.
Ignorance is the only thing that allows the rewriting of history, fiction as fact, George Orwell and Aldous Huxley worlds come to life.
Gibson is part of the culture that wishes to rewrite history.
At the least redirect your vision so the truth can not be revealed.
the type of violence he depicts in his movie even if true to that level, is still nothing compared to Christian violence against the Maya, or through out history, can we say Inquisition? The sacrifices that we know of were of a religious nature. To appease the Gods if you will, grow the harvest.
What do we have with the Spanish who arrive and their violence?
It is for self aggrandizement, wealth, gold, conquering and destroying
an indigenous culture.
The quote from President Efrain Rios Montt is so true that “the true Christian has a a Bible in one hand and a machine gun in the other”. Of course this is nothing to be proud of, more to the point it is a frightening truth and the cause of so much killing and hatred, like “in the name of God.” That is not the privilege for christians only it is for all the big religions, Judaism, and Islam... all have and do Kill in the name of God and to them it is all the justification needed.
But if they followed one quote, in their daily lives all would change,
“What you do to the least of them you do to me”.No matter what master (in this case Jesus) said this it is a lesson for life that all should follow and for Christian’s how convenient that for thousands of years they have ignored this.... a statement from Jesus, whom they say is the be all and end all, and must be followed... unless there’s some land or gold, you might want then we can negotiate.
Gibson could never do an honest, movie of the history of Christians and indigenous people, then he would have to own up to the truth and he and people like him don’t do that. Reality would flood into their fantasy the truth would have to be faced and that will not happen, for they must be right and that comes at big cost to humanity.
His type of Christianity and violence are one in the same, It is their sad history, Christianity and God, that’s not what these people are about
I have to say after reading some of the blogs here, the argument seems to be who was more violent and how to justify that. Because the Maya or Aztecs were a violent people, what the Christians did throughout history is ok? Or because some Muslim extremists have defiled Allah with death and destruction it’s ok for us to get that low.
OR VISA VERSA ..... NO, NO, NO
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» RE: Oh no I can be more violent than you, Oh no I can No I...
Posted by: mark
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Posted by: geoff_canuck on Dec 17, 2006 12:59 PM
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Posted by: Sinemeh on Dec 17, 2006 1:23 PM
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
— Beyond Good and Evil
By placing this movie in its proper historical context; indeed, there has been an unrelenting campain by occultists (Demon invoking, and worshipers) working within the Vatican, such as: the Jesuits, Teutonic Knights, and other Chilvary Orders of the European Royal dynasties, other occultists such as the Skull and Bones, Scroll and Keys societies of Yale, and Scottish Rite Masons, etc. (too many to name) to discredit the cultures of indigenous peoples around the earth for centuries, and this movie is simply follows in this pattern. In fact, these occult societies, with their finance controls the Entertainment industry as a means of mind conditioning, and control of populations. In essence, this film simply is another in the line of pychological projections, of "Western Civilization;" i.e. The Shadow of Jungian psychology, and is no different than the glorification of the terriorist organization, the Ku Klux Clan in the movie A Birth of a Nation which initiated the "Hollywood" era.
Meaning, I by the way live in Guatemala, speak some of one of the indigenous languages related to the Mayan tongue called Quiche, and; likewise, reject the theories of so-called archeologists from most universities, and magazines like the National Geographic who are normally not initiates of the cultures they PROJECT themselves to be experts on. Actually, the so-called "science" of Archeology is deeply rooted in the white supremacy values, norms, and conditions to justify the Colonial invasions of Europeans into the territories of "non-white" peoples worldwide such as in the theories promoted by Gottigen University in Germany; for instance (Read: Black Athena by Martin Bernal).
What should be recognized is the Occultists behind people like Mel Gibson who allow for movies such as his to be financed, and internationally distributed must continue on their centuries long discrediting campaigns because the spiritual systems of the indigenous peoples contain powers which would render the occultists satanic rituals impotent, and; thereby, spiritually empower people from becomming the mind conditioned operative slaves which is the true agenda of these occultists.
Do not waste your time worrying about whether, or not the Mayans practiced Human Sacrifice, or, indeed, whether it was; actually, Capital Punishment, as is any's societies right when its laws are violated. First, learn about the Mayan people's Medicine, their Mathematics, their Social Organization, their Archetecture, their Astrology/Astronomy, their Social Institutions, their Agriculture techniques, their Spiritual/Physics, their Aesthetics, and their Cosmology, and then whatever else not understood would be placed within its proper context, and from a Mayan perspective. Otherwise, you are simply being deceived by people who are well practiced in mass mind control. Maltyox showay.
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» WHITE MAN'S SUPREMACY....
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: vangogh69 on Dec 17, 2006 2:14 PM
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Considering that current world history contains many stories of mass murder, enslavement, and warfare, why go back hundreds of years? Surely, Austrailia is ripe with stories as is the USA. Maybe he could turn his attention to the Puritans who fled persecution in England only to come here and terrorize natives and later, blacks?
The Passion was I believe the world's first big, bloody, and great Christian/Catholic horror film. It's a "great" piece of sadism and whatever else people want to make out of it, the film is about blood, torture, punishment. I found it odd, at the time, that so many Christians flocked to it in all earnestness (even taking their kids!) when these same folks flipped out at Janet Jackson's exposed breast during the Superbowl. But then, to mis-quote Lenny Bruce: "A naked woman is only acceptable to the viewing public if her body's been mutilated." Anyway, Gibson is a horror-film director and perhaps one day, cineophiles will appreciate (or ridicule) his work as such.
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» RE: It's odd - but that's just it about so-called Christians: they LOVE pain and suffering..
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: hole11 on Dec 17, 2006 5:40 PM
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This is a man's movie about man deciding his own destiny. Gibson told a story of how things might of been for an Aztec like culture that grew to dominate a smarter culture. Could happen anywhere at anytime.
If Gibson is truly anti-semitic he would of done a move about the crusades, Inquisition, English expelling the jews before Cromwell, or how the germans felt they were betrayed by them at Versailles.
If anything this film is anti-capital punishment as the aztec culture dominated through a planned killing of outsiders. What was missing was their sport that had death involved with it. Otherwise this movie was good escapism but I personally don't like chase films.
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Posted by: twocreeks on Dec 17, 2006 6:06 PM
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Well, I loved Apocalypto. As one of the very rare (try "The Fast Runner") films using a native language, it is a dramatic and spectacular effort by Mel Gibson. If we were talking thousands of films in native languages, with diversity in outlook and style, well, then Gibson's film MIGHT (and I said MIGHT!) be rationally seen as violent, inaccurate, etc. But believe me, the humor, the characters, and the point that the small girl who faces the captors and recites the apocalypse legend is incredible and so human (and how could it not be?) - after all America, a few small lines here and there (Bill of Rights, etc.) have defined this entire nation, with its incredible inconsistancies, brutality, and diversities in rational thought and unspeakably vile superstitions and racial attitudes as well. Gibsons's work is incredible here, be Gibson as he may.
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» KNow what?
Posted by: JERSEYDAN
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Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on Dec 17, 2006 6:59 PM
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Posted by: Blaugaia on Dec 17, 2006 9:53 PM
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» RE: I can debate you, sure
Posted by: Mex
» RE: I can debate you, sure
Posted by: Blaugaia
» RE: I can debate you, sure
Posted by: Blaugaia
» albrechtkrausse is VERY WRONG
Posted by: Mex
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Dec 18, 2006 9:48 AM
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The father was a Holocaust denier, not the son.
Ah but he did direct a very Catholic passion play, THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST. And he was viciously raked over the coals by a lot of very prominent Jewish Americans among the media elites.
And only AFTER this public scourging does Mad Mel slam down a few too many Margaritas, and allow all that simmering anger to spill out onto a California Highway Patrol Officer.
So, before he makes the Jesus movie and gets slammed by half the liberal Jews in Hollywood and New York, Mad Mel never said a drunken, unkind word about any Hebrew anywhere.
But AFTER his Jesus movie gets trashed he gets drunk ONCE and goes into a tirade about Jews, wars, etc., and suddenly he’s a raving anti-Semite and all his films become right-wing propaganda?
Mel should have kept his drunken Catholic mouth shut, but please, does the punishment fit the crime? APOCALYPTO is an excellent film about man's inhumanity to man, and if it had been made by Spielberg or Scorcese the same critics would've called it the best thing since sliced fry bread.
And then the bloggers on this site make another leap of faith (pun intended) and blame all the evils of the world on Christianity? Nice to know that right-wing Christians like Mao and Pol Pot can blame their Catholic school nuns for the Cultural Revolution and the Killing Fields.
The Stalinist genocide of the Kulaks in the Ukraine can easily be blamed on Uncle Joe’s early training for the priesthood. And Hitler (who, rumor has it, was one-quarter Jewish through his paternal grandfather), well he chucked all that Catholic School crap and became obsessed with the occult and astrology, didn’t he?
Don’t kid yourselves. Violence is a HUMAN thing, not a religious thing. We don’t need racism or religion to kill each other, although people have been doing each other in for centuries in the name of God or race. We kill each other because that is our nature.
Evil men use God as an excuse to do evil. Good men are used by God to do good. These facts didn’t change when Mel made the Jesus movie.
One more historical note: The Puritans banned Passion Plays and Christmas as "too Catholic."
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Posted by: jdylarid on Dec 18, 2006 12:19 PM
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According to a Maya (from Mexico) that I heard interviewed on Pacific radio, Gibson hired hundreds of Maya as extras in the movie, and others as consultants, and seemed genuinely interested in adhering to "accuracy" whenever possible (granted, there is disagreement about what is accurate).
Apparently the film also explores the tensions between urban "high" culture (decadence, exploitation) and the simpler, pure country culture. While Gibson may be biased here, this theme, like that of corrupt rulers and priests exploiting the masses for their personal benefit, is a universal one. I think available evidence suggests it applies just as much to the Mayan world as everywhere else.
Gibson seems to make the same picture over and over: the decent man who minds whose own business and lives a peaceful life is overwhelmed by invaders and/or corrupt rulers, who are extremely violent. The hero is then forced to single-handedly fight them, using extreme violence -- or, in the case of the Passion, endure their violence. (With many scenes involving scantily-clad, grunting men...hmmm.) The Patriot (not directed by Gibson but starring him) fits here. So Apocalypto fits this same storyline onto an indigenous template.
It should also be noted that the Maya still exist. Comments both pro and con above seem to miss this. Indigenous Maya must be one of the most numerous ethno-linguistic indigenous groups left in the Americas, as they form most of the population of Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula, and the highlands of Mexico's Chiapas and Guatemala. I have traveled extensively in two of these three areas and the indigenous presence is simply ubiquitious, including the common use of various Mayan dialects. And as the author notes above, these people have suffered and continue to suffer discrimination as well as direct military and economic oppression. This story is undoubtedly more worthy of being told on film.
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» RE: Mel; and the extant Maya
Posted by: twocreeks
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Posted by: Soco on Dec 18, 2006 1:46 PM
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Can anyone tell me which films do not take artistic license to tell a historical story? Fact is, the Mayans weren't exactly the rosy Utopian society people originally thought they were. Fact is, Cortez had a large contingent of natives that assisted his conquest of Montezuma. Fact is, the "genocide" was principally due to disease, not warfare. Sure Cortez was brutal and ruthless, but Spain did not send a million people with Cortez's party, it was more like 500 Spaniards against millions of natives. I doubt anyone could have predicted the introduction of disease would have made such an impact. Sorry, this doesn't qualify for genocide of the noble peace loving children of the earth natives.
The interesting thing is that the Left has it's own version of revisionist historians that like to paint themselves as heros of identifying the atrocities of everyone and being victims. "I am more aware than you, I care more and it makes me better than you." Save the whales and screw the people. It's one of the few places where people try to "Out Liberal" another liberal by being more offended. If you are a minority all the better, but most likely your a self-loathing Caucasian with a college degree who intellectually better understands to plight of the minorities than the minorities themselves. Yea, when you actually meet an "Injun" you can be more offended than them, while wondering why they aren't running around in loincloth burning sage. Bonus points for having a black friend you can use as a crutch to prop up your tirades against Conservatives and people who aren't "Liberal" enough. Besides, you support Native American culture by visiting casinos once a month.
I have news for you, warfare has been a part of every culture and race on the planet, it's not restricted to one group. Slavery and genocide is not restricted to Caucasians. There is significant evidence and small and powerful groups of people throughout history controlled their people by religion and warfare for personal gain.
I had hope for AlterNet, but the quality of articles have been fluff shit like this to reinforce stupid liberal ideology rather than consider most people are in fact moderates. You are becoming a perfect mirror of the JackAsses on the right. To be liberal is to have awareness of every stupid ass issue on the planet and do nothing about it, to be conservative is acting without awareness. Each side's true enemy is themselves and anyone trying to be moderate of thought.
I get it, Mel Gibson's movie sucks ass because he is an Anti-Semite and now he's trying to say Mayans sacrificed people. If we can't destroy his reputation we'll attempt to destroy his work. For now, let's make Mel Gibson the poster boy for everything wrong in the world, until we can find another.
Who doesn't have issues to deal with? Apparently AlterNet Liberals are free of them. So many issues, so little time.
Apocalypto was a good movie, and it doesn't make me hate Jews or Mayans. It really makes me wish these types of liberals would STFU.
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» Aztecs, Mayans, Cortez...
Posted by: jdylarid
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Posted by: fitzjohn on Dec 18, 2006 2:17 PM
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Posted by: DanielT28 on Dec 19, 2006 1:21 PM
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First of all, no human alive today was around at the time of the movie's setting... it cannot be accurate, no movie, set in the past, will ever be accurate, or even present time...
To those complaining about accuracy... were you alive then? Are you so sure that you know exactly what life was like then?
Beyond that, a lot of Mayans were actually involved in the making of the film. Mayans of those days did have human sacrifices, when things were bad, to please the gods, etc... many people have done this or similar, throughout history... but the main character and his fellow villagers were presented in a very positive human light, though not a part of the main Mayan city, they were obviously a part of the people of the region...
The movie was actually very political, showing the urban elite's decadence, resource (natural and human) exploitation, diverting personal responsibility to an impersonal god, etc... I'm sure you get the point. These rulers exploited their people for their own benefit, sound familiar?
BTW... When the priest was sacrificing, I felt that he knew about the eclipse, and took advantage of it, as a tool for controling the people... as if he was appeasing the god...
The movie also has a theme of fear. Jaguar Paw, the main character, had to abandon his fear and basically do what he needed to do. When the Mayan warriors became fearful, they suffered... it depicted the Mayans, as fearing for their life (disease, bad crops, dwindling resources, etc.), basically when you live in fear you get jacked... and as the Mayans came and jacked his village, and others, in the end the Spaniards (on boats with MILITARY men and RELGIOUS men) showed up... and how did Jaguar Paw react? his wife says "should we go to them?" Jaguar Paw says "let's go to the forest and look for a new beginning"
To me, Mel actually equates the Spanish with the Mayan... one corrupt, declining nation comes and ravages his village, then another comes... you know the story.
I think Mel did a great job, but keep in mind, this movie was NOT about the Mayans. The story was about corruption, fear, courage, politics, etc.... the story is the story...
I know that plenty of people hate Mel, but stop for a minute and look at his ideas and his story. Realize that he is a man, and like other men he has his good side and his bad side. He has his faults and he has changed over time, like everything does. For those that equate him with the catholic church, did you know that he believes that Jews, Muslims, etc. can "get into" heaven? Doesn't that strike anyone as odd that a "Catholic" would think that?
Anyway...
To say that any group of people are a particular way is incorrect. I'm sure the Mayan people changed over time, as does everything in existence. I'm sure that during certain time periods certain Mayans were really great people... does that mean every single Mayan throughout time has been a great, benevolent, intelligent person? No... but in the same light, that does not mean that every single Mayan throughout time has been corrupt, savage, etc... the same applies to the Spanish, European, Asian, African, whatever... I'm sure that India, in it's day, had some viciousness of it's own, as every other large nation ruled by a small group of elites, with ignorant, unengaged citizens...
Watch the movie again, or for the first time, without looking for ways to prove how bad of a job Mel did, or how accurate/inaccurate it is... just see the story as it is...
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Posted by: folkdude01 on Dec 20, 2006 2:24 PM
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» RE: if mel gibson is wrong in his movie, then show some facts
Posted by: Tomaguey
Matt Damon and Morgan Freeman's Invictus Film Release Kicks Off New Campaign For Universal Declaration of Human Rights
'Moon': New Sci-Fi Movie Indicts Our Culture of Exploitation
At the Washington Premiere for 'In the Loop': When Moviemakers Meet Wonks




