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An Atheist Bullies the Faithful

By Lakshmi Chaudhry, In These Times. Posted December 15, 2006.


Oxford University biologist Richard Dawkins reveals his fundamentalist approach to atheisim in his new documentary, The Root of All Evil.
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"Religion fucking blows!" declares comedian Roseanne Barr in her latest HBO special. Her pronouncement, both in its declarative certainty and self-congratulatory defiance, could easily serve as the succinct moral of Richard Dawkins' documentary, The Root of All Evil.

The big-screen version of a two-part British television series follows the noted biologist as he embarks on a global road-trip to the veritable bastions of theological conviction -- the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, a Christian conservative stronghold in Colorado Springs, a Hassidic community in the heart of London -- bullying, berating and heckling the devoutly faithful he encounters along his way.

Confronting cancer patients who have traveled to Lourdes in hopes of a cure, Dawkins tells the viewer in the first scene, "It may seem tough to question the beliefs of these poor, desperate people's faith." By the end of the documentary, Dawkins' bravado is not in doubt. When talking to Ted Haggard, a New Life Church pastor (more recently infamous for his predilection for crystal meth and gay prostitutes), after witnessing one of his sermons, Dawkins tells him, "I was almost reminded of the Nuremberg rallies ... Dr. Goebbels would have been proud." To a hapless guide at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem, he taunts, "Do you really believe that Jesus' body lay here?" And then there's his remark -- "I'm really worried for the well-being of your children" -- to a Hassidic school teacher, Rabbi Herschel Gluck, whom Dawkins accuses of brainwashing innocent kids.

As he storms his way around the world in the state of high dudgeon, Dawkins' attitude can be best described as apocalyptic outrage. The effect is in turns bewildering, embarrassing, grating and even unintentionally comic, as we watch the distinguished Oxford University Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science channel his inner Borat. When the astonished rabbi exclaims, "You are a fundamentalist believer," even a sympathetic, true-blue San Francisco audience cannot help but chuckle in assent.

As his rabbinical nemesis rightly suspects, Dawkins' fondness for sweeping generalizations reflects his own deep-seated fundamentalism, a virulent form of atheism that mirrors the polarized worldview of the religious extremists it claims to oppose. "They condemn not just belief in God, but respect for belief in God. Religion is not just wrong; it's evil," writes Gary Wolf in his Wired Magazine cover story, "The New Atheism," whose leading exponents include -- in addition to Dawkins -- Daniel Dennett, a philosophy professor at Yale, punk rocker Greg Graffin and Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason. These are the self-styled "Brights," the moniker of choice for Dawkins to describe "a person whose worldview is free of supernatural and mystical elements."

The "bright" worldview is also remarkably free of complexity. Dawkins' view of faith can be summed up thus: Religion is dangerous because it requires that we suspend our powers of reason to place our faith in the shared delusion that is God. This, he asserts, is the first step on that "slippery slope" to hatred and violence.

When we cede our "critical faculties" to believe in the idea of a higher power, Dawkins claims, we are immediately invested in a panoply of increasingly ludicrous propositions: that the Virgin Mary ascended directly to heaven, Moses parted the seas, God created the world in seven days, or beautiful virgins await good Muslims in heaven. Why not, he asks, believe in fairies or hobgoblins?

Faith, in his universe, is interchangeable with superstition, eccentricity, madness, and, at its most benign, infantilism. Religious conviction is a marker of human backwardness, both in a historical and psychological sense. According to Dawkins, human beings invented religion as a "crutch" for ignorance. Without science to help us understand the world around us, we turned to gods/faith/superstition to cope with our sense of helplessness. Today, religion remains a source of succor to those unable to outgrow their childish desire to see the world in terms of "black and white, as a battle between good and evil" -- unlike atheists who are "responsible adults and accept that life is complex."

"We're brought from cradle to believe that there is something good about faith," says Dawkins, as he compares this belief to "a virus that infects the young, for generation after generation." Fortunate are the "responsible adults" who grow up to shake off these beliefs, unlike the rest of humanity who remain trapped in their infantile desire to be taken care of by an all-powerful deity.

Unlike fairytales, however, our religious beliefs are not harmless, says Dawkins, they instead lay the foundation for the murder and mayhem inevitably wreaked by true believers. His evidence: the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Crusades, the 9/11 attacks, and less spectacular crimes against humanity like suicide bombers, anti-abortion killers, and so on.

This broad-stroked caricature of faith is delivered with a breathtaking disregard for historical context, in which social, political or economic conditions are simply ignored or discounted. "[Dawkins] has a simple-as-that, plain-as-day approach to the grandest questions, unencumbered by doubt, consistency, or countervailing information," writes Marilynne Robinson in the November Harpers', while reviewing his bestselling book, The God Delusion. And on screen he is no different. Of course, there are sound political causes for the Palestinian conflict, Dawkins hurriedly acknowledges -- only to assert in the same breath that the real culprit is religion, which teaches its adherents to think, "I'm right and you're wrong."

Not unlike the religious simpletons he claims to disdain, Dawkins sees the world in terms of a battle of Good vs. Evil, cloaked here as Science vs. Religion. Where Religion is corrupt, tyrannical and false, Science offers intellectual integrity, freedom and truth. As Robinson notes, Dawkins fails to acknowledge Science's less admirable achievements, be they eugenics, Hiroshima, or the more mundane travesties committed by unethical doctors or fat-cat researchers in service of corporate funding.

"Dawkins implicitly defines science as a clear-eyed quest for truth, chaste as an algorithm, while religion is atavistic, mad, and mired in crime," Robinson writes.

In this version of atheist theology, Science attains the same status as Dawkins' loathed "alpha male in sky," whose laws rule all things known and unknown. If we do not quite understand how the universe was created or the human brain works -- or the competing, contradictory claims about the virtues of, say, table salt -- all we need to do is wait and keep faith in the scientific method, which will reveal all in good time. The ways of Science are no less sacred or mysterious than that of God.

Like his fellow fundamentalists, Dawkins has no use for moderation or its practitioners. The people of faith featured in his documentary are strict, true believers, who adhere to the most rigid interpretations of their respective faiths. There are no Muslim doctors, church-going geneticists or Catholics who support abortion rights. Anyone who believes in evolution and God is just as deluded or in denial, and, as he tells Wired, "really on the side of the fundamentalists."

Nothing less than a complete renunciation of all things spiritual will suffice. "As long as we accept the principle that religious faith must be respected simply because it is religious faith, it is hard to withhold respect from the faith of Osama bin Laden and the suicide bombers," he writes in The God Delusion, in an eerie echo of President Bush's post-9/11 point of view: "You're either with us or against us."

It would be silly to argue that the new atheists' crusade is as dangerous as the so-called war on terror, but that crusade does give aid and comfort to fundamentalists everywhere by affirming their view of faith: one, science and religion are mutually opposed and exclusive worldviews; two, religion is immutable and outside history; and therefore, three, the Bible (or the Quran, for that matter) must be taken literally, and is not open to interpretation. For both camps, ignoring one law or moderating a single injunction is the first step toward rejecting the faith in its entirety.

This great war of ontologies, seductive though it may be in our beleaguered times, becomes immediately absurd if we remind ourselves of one simple fact: Science and Religion are historical in the richest sense of the word. They both inform and reflect our changing ideas about ourselves and the world around us. From the practice of throwing a woman on her husband's funeral pyre in India to determining intelligence by the shape of person's skull in Europe -- both of which seem hateful today -- religious and scientific beliefs ebb, rise and transmute themselves over time. To pretend otherwise is to ignore the vast bulk of what we call History, which the Brights seem just as willing to rewrite as their theological adversaries.

As innately human endeavors, religion and science are therefore as unreasonable, noble, immoral, kind, tyrannical, odious, compassionate -- in other words, irredeemably human -- as the people who literally embody them. Yes, the laws of nature and those of God might still exist without human beings, but there would be no one to name or know them as such, or act on that knowledge. Taken together, they express our need to both submit and to control, to know and to believe, to be in the visible world and to transcend it.

That the vast majority of us would find it difficult to choose between the two should be hardly surprising. The antidote to fanaticism is not a new puritanism of reason, but the contradictory, ambiguous, compromised reality of ordinary human experience.

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See more stories tagged with: religion, dawkins, evolution

Lakshmi Chaudhry is a senior editor at In These Times and a former senior editor of AlterNet.


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Atheism: A New Age Cult?
Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on Dec 15, 2006 12:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Clearly you can't make yourself smarter simply by calling yourself an atheist. I agree with Russell that religion belongs to the infancy of human reason, however you're blatantly not going to enlighten someone with a stick -- all you can do is show people how you see the world; if you pursuade them (in some measure) great but if not, then that's just how it goes. Furthermore, I don't see how "debunking" the faith of suffers of terminal illness is defensable. In fact, chemothearipy itself is mainly used to give people hope -- in most cases it probably does more harm than good (I have been told this by a doctor).

» RE: Atheism: A New Age Cult? Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Atheism: A New Age Cult? Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Atheism: A New Age Cult? Posted by: jack alexander
» RE: Atheism: A New Age Cult? Posted by: gilliani
» RE: Atheism: A New Age Cult? Posted by: jack alexander
» RE: Atheism: A New Age Cult? Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Atheism: A New Age Cult? Posted by: jmooney
» chemotherapy Posted by: owleyes
» Depends what kind of cancer... Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: chemotherapy Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: chemotherapy Posted by: Bibs
» RE: chemotherapy Posted by: theistfree
» Not "like the others" of course. Posted by: ABetterFuture
So?
Posted by: unsorted on Dec 15, 2006 12:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This sounds like a defensive reaction from a mildly spiritual liberal who is uncomfortable with Dawkins' bluntness ("Yes but why does he have to be so harsh?"). Science and religion "both inform and reflect our changing ideas about ourselves and the world around us"?? Get real. Science is based on the search for truth and has done much more good than harm. Religion is based on faith and faith alone, and has unquestionably done more harm for than good. Yes Dawkins is blunt, but I'd rather have that than cowardly deference to all things religious. I get defensive too sometimes, but then I ask myself why I get that reaction. All god-believers need to do the same. Only by brutally honest reflection will we break free from the shackles of god and religion.

» RE: So? Posted by: Jordon
» Even the rock and club Posted by: Bic Pentameter
» RE: So? Posted by: aislinnluv
» Re-writing history. Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: So? Posted by: pancho
» RE: So? Posted by: Bibs
» RE: So? Posted by: edith
» RE: So? Posted by: montims
» RE: So? Posted by: willymack
» RE: So? Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: So? Posted by: jmooney
» RE: So? Posted by: izeit
» RE: So? Posted by: Bibs
Excellent Article
Posted by: Jordon on Dec 15, 2006 12:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the my title says, excellent article. I was woried, given Alternet's sometimes history of supporting this type of stuff, that this would be another rave review; thank you for proving me wrong. We cannot combat religious fundamentalism, or dogmatic fundamentalism of any kind, by inventing another form of our own.

» RE: not so fast Posted by: chutzpah
» RE: not so fast Posted by: nha16
» RE: not so fast Posted by: bwmathis
» RE: not so fast Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: not so fast Posted by: theistfree
» RE: Duh, theistfree Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Duh, theistfree Posted by: theistfree
» RE: not so fast Posted by: jmooney
» RE: xcellent Article Posted by: Dale Dressler
It's a bit more nuanced Mr. Dawkins...
Posted by: timebomb734 on Dec 15, 2006 12:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love how he likes to claim that atheists see the world as more nuanced that relgion while simultaneously claiming that the world's violence is primarily caused by religion. To do so is ignoring secular ethnic violence, market-based conflict, and power mongering. While violence in the name of these latter reasons may claim to uphold relgious principle, they are actually defending more strategic ideas...power, anyone?

» RE: It's a bit more nuanced Mr. Dawkins... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Defensive and Thoughtless
Posted by: randcoop on Dec 15, 2006 2:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet is not the only liberal media that is having problems dealing with Dawkins and others (The Nation comes to mind). This is a major disappointment for those of us who are thrilled to finally hear intelligent challenge to the religious dominance in our and other societies.

It is simply wrong and silly to equate Dawkins and religious fundamentalists, even as it is simply wrong and silly to equate science and religion. To point out that science has made mistakes over the centuries of human history is fine. But to suggest that is the source of as much human misery as religion is simply disingenuous. The Crusades alone killed more people than have ever been killed in the name of science. Frankly, I don't know how many people have been killed in the name of science (I suppose that there were Nazi experimenters who killed under that guise), but it's a relatively tiny number.

Perhaps more important, even that argument is a dodge of the fundamental (pardon the use of the term) point: there is no substance or reality to religious belief. Science proves itself over and over again. Religious belief NEVER does. To refer to bad science and equate it with "bad" religion is ridiculous. When science is bad, it is found out; it is disproved; it is shown to be false. But no one can ever disprove a religious tenet, because it is based solely on a fantasy.

The problem is not that all religious people believe in the fundamental truth of books like the Bible or the Quran. The problem is that all religious people believe in the myth of a god, of a supernatural power. People who pray for the intervention of this supernatural power are behaving stupidly. It makes no more sense than to practice pagan rituals.

The reaction to Dawkins by otherwise good liberal people is an embarrassment to the left. But as we've seen before, it just means that he's hit a nerve.

It's funny, though. When the civil rights movement was ascendant, no one has a problem saying that everyone who was opposed to civil rights was wrong, whether they were outspoken and ignorant racists or intellectuals who managed to cloak their racism in multisyllabic words. But today, when Dawkins says the religious emperor has no clothes, he's accused of lacking tolerance of the moderate believers.

The refuge of scoundrels is often to cry "intolerance" when no reasoned answer can be found. Sad to see liberals taking that refuge.

» Darwin was not an atheist! Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Defensive and Thoughtless Posted by: randcoop
» RE: Defensive and Thoughtless Posted by: sailor50
» if you'll excuse the phrase Posted by: Coleman
» RE: Defensive and Thoughtless Posted by: leonardfeingold
"Not unlike the religious simpletons, he..."
Posted by: Sojourner on Dec 15, 2006 2:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Insofar as religion continues to try to do the same job as science (that is, account for nature) Dawkins is right on.

The temptation is to refer Dawkins to philosophy of science to point out the extent to which the practice of science can only be justified by its results--and those are less than admirable sometimes. I expect he would try to hide behind a distinction between pure science and technology--that resembles where theologians hide between religion as it is practiced (which is what Dawkins ridicules, rightly) and religion as exhalted affirmation--but science cannot disown technology.

Global warming is a scientific product, as are thalidomide babies and all the other "unintended consequences" that compare to organized religion's history of horrors.

The only difference is that we can do religion by ourselves. Dawkins' hands are covered in the blood of science's disasters, because he belongs to that community. Science is nothing without acceptance by its community; at least that's what every scientist I've read or heard has told me.

My point is: lose the science vs. religion contretemps. They're apples and oranges, and both can be good to eat or bad for your health. So, has Dawkins really so mastered his field that he has time left to go around ridiculing others? Or is he running from his own guilty conscience?

» Bullshit, Harris Posted by: carcinoid112
» Science, Religion, Morality Posted by: Hajoda
Fight Fire With Fire
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Dec 15, 2006 2:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The right wing has cleverly pulled the entire political spectrum to the right by posing the most bizarre, extreme, and often theocratic views as tolerable discourse. This makes slightly less crazy, but still extreme, views look like the new middle ground. Maybe we need someone on the left who is just as aggressive, strident and intolerant to pull the "middle" back to its proper place.

» RE: Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: babs
» RE: Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: bigbad
Ideas
Posted by: Fang-Face Dreamweaver on Dec 15, 2006 2:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I always thought Dawkins's thinking was too reductionist for his hypotheses to hold water, and now I'm sure of it. The fundamental mistake he makes in his crusade is to hold the idea responsible for those who believe in it. "Ideas are not responsible for those who believe in them." Rabid, foaming-at-the-brain fanatics of any stripe are solely responsible for the choices they make. All of them. Not God, not the Bible, and not atheism. Richard Dawkins is an idiot, people, but do not make the same error he has and assume that all atheists are equally imbecilic.

» RE: Ideas Posted by: harris
» RE: Ideas Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Ideas Posted by: wolfcry
» RE: Ideas Posted by: Fang-Face Dreamweaver
» RE: Ideas Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Ideas Posted by: Bibs
If truth and reality matters then help the faithful lose blind faith.
Posted by: aouie01 on Dec 15, 2006 2:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A harsh approach may do more for those who think similarly than to reach those who don't.
Sincerely,
Aouie

Dawkins brave in a world of religious intolerance
Posted by: vitualis on Dec 15, 2006 3:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Equating Dawkins' new production with "religious fundamentalism" is a complete mischaracterisation, and if anything, confirms his well delivered argument.

It is not fundamentalism or "intolerance" to state facts truthfully and rationally. It it not intolerance to state that the world is round or that gravity exists. It is not intolerance to proclaim the reality of evolution.

As per others have described, Dawkins has simply revealed that the religious "emperor" has no clothes, and done so in a clear and eloquent manner. There is nothing extreme about his arguments; there no rational reason to believe that god exists, or that any of the supernatural beliefs of the organised religions have factual truth. As he has clearly illustrated, we live in a society that at present tolerates the religious indoctrination of children with beliefs that are clearly factually false (e.g., the age of the Earth).

His other arguments counteract some of the myths perpetuated by religious devotees. He argues (and I agree) that morality, altruism, ethics and many of the other admirable qualities we see in humanity need not (and often do not) come from any organised religion. He argues how from a position of atheism one can find morality just like from a position of faith. Moreover, as this morality is understood without a supernatural context, I concur that it can be more profound and subtle than the dictums of religious faith.

Dawkins argues for the position of rationality. If this is "fundamentalism", then "liberals" need to take a cold hard look at themselves.

In addition...
Posted by: vitualis on Dec 15, 2006 3:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"An atheist bullies the faithful?"

Take off the rose tinted glasses and stare at the cold face of reality. The "faithful" have been bullying everyone else (apart from their own faith) for centuries and now an atheist is publically calling "bullshit!"

» RE: In addition... Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: In addition... tax 'em. Posted by: symcokid
» RE: In addition... Posted by: righteousbabe
» RE: In addition... Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: In addition... Posted by: righteousbabe
» RE: In addition... Posted by: Doubtom
For every action ....
Posted by: ebliso on Dec 15, 2006 3:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With the resurgence , across the globe, of hardcore, fundamentalist religion, is it really a surprise that we non-believers are getting a bit edgy these days? I used to be a very tolerant atheist. Used to be, as in before the last 6 years. Then religion morphed from what I thought of as a somewhat quaint , mostly harmless mythology, into a rabid , dangerous and hyper violent orthodoxy. I find myself cringing at Barrack Obama and other Dems with their new found ease in using g*d talk. I get tired of dumbing down conversations so as not to seem rude to believers. I've spent the last 6 years growing angrier and more scarredat the prospect of living in a country ruled by the whims of sectarian fundamentalists. I've lain awake at night wondering if I'll awake to a world where reason is literally outlawed. I've cried at the thought of a large new generation of "faithful" little facist bigots . I've tried to keep my humor (Stewart and Colbert, among others, help) and be tolerant and understanding, but everyday it gets harder and harder. I no longer smile politely when people mention prayers or "the spirit" or g*d...I have a knee-jerk reaction, these days. My face turns flush, my hands in my pockets turn to fists, my teeth clench, my eyes show my fear and apprehension. I'm not saying that Dawkin's approach is super-cool happy fun time stuff, but it is 100000000% understandible. Frankly, I'm surprised it's taken this long for confrontational atheism to rise up, if only through a handfull of the famous. Rude, uncooth, whatever. The argument needs to be made. Forcefully. Loudly. Rudely. Fundamentalist religion has gotten a free pass for far too long . We , as a species need to reclaim our faculties, we need to nurture reason, we need to grow the fuck up and get over the poisonous g*d delusion. Rudeass , though he may be, Dawkins has thrown down the gauntlet and challenged the myth. The meme he not-so-eloquently shouts out to the world is important. Whether or not his manners are good.

» Is it g*d or god? Posted by: scott balogh
» RE: Is it g*d or god? Posted by: theistfree
» I am burning in Hell Posted by: scott balogh
» RE: I am burning in Hell Posted by: Spot
» RE: Is it g*d or god? Posted by: aebartle
» RE: Is it g*d or god? Posted by: ebliso
» "...death is not a question..." Posted by: Sojourner
» NO, NO, NO, It's CAKE or Death... Posted by: carcinoid112
» "...when i die..." Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "...when i die..." Posted by: ebliso
» RE: For every action .... Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: For every action .... Posted by: yellow
No Solicitors
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Dec 15, 2006 3:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sounds like another big mouth guru with all the answers.

I'd tell him to go convert my neighbor. That'll fix him for partying at 3am on a weekday.

If somebody wants to worship Barbara, Liza, or their cat, leave them alone, so long as they're not bothering anybody. Maybe it'll keep them quiet for a while.

» RE: No Solicitors Posted by: harris
» RE: No Solicitors Posted by: theistfree
» RE: No Solicitors Posted by: AppleMommie AZ
» RE: No Solicitors Posted by: theistfree
» RE: No Solicitors Posted by: AppleMommie AZ
» Howdy diddly doo... Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: No Solicitors Posted by: Paul D
Hamish
Posted by: JDBishop5 on Dec 15, 2006 3:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm, with Dawkins, and reason.

Superstition blows.

Show me one worthwhile thing that religion has ever done that could not have been accomplished without a superstitious adherence to a sky daddy. There is nothing. There are, however, multitudinous examples of tragedies and abominations that have been executed BECAUSE of an adherence to a belief in a sky daddy.

Now these morons (To Wit - George W. Bush) have atom bombs!

What would Jesus do?

» RE: wwjd? Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Hamish Posted by: aonghus36
Let Dawkins Speak
Posted by: katrivers64 on Dec 15, 2006 3:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have not seen this film, but I have read a lot of Dawkins's writing and writing about him. I think the guy is right on most counts. I was surprised to see this article on Alternet -- but I've noticed it's had a couple of "right wingish" articles on here before (and, dare I say it, even some that go left to a way silly degree -- never thought I'd say that!). Anyway, religion is the invention of man, and that is true whether or not one is a "believer" of any type. - Kathy

Amen, I agree!
Posted by: katrivers64 on Dec 15, 2006 3:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
LOL. I am glad to see you pick this comment out and make a good point.

Wake up call
Posted by: Nature12345 on Dec 15, 2006 3:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ive been back and forth in my belief of a GOD but I think that the war in Iraq and global warming are 2 major wake up calls telling me that humans are not gods gift to the universe. I hope that the tiny-minded, knuckle-dragging, god-fearing can come to the realization that they have their focus on the wrong thing and consider that our planet is quickly going down the tubes. But we can also blame unchecked resourse consumption and the temptation of a materialistic/capitalistic society.

The Failure of Men, Not Science
Posted by: igoeja on Dec 15, 2006 3:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The crimes against humanity you attribute to science are the sins of men unencumbered by science. The atomic bomb was often fought by the men that created them, particularly Einstein. Eugenics, although conceptually quasi-scientific, was implemented by non-scientists, and most likely pushed by god-fearing men. It’s kind of like attributing the internet bubble to the people that work in technology, not to the irrationality of business people and to the general public.

» RE: The Failure of Men, Not Science Posted by: Camin Harner
» RE: The Failure of Men, Not Science Posted by: Camin Harner
» Secualr Humanism Posted by: igoeja
» RE: Secualr Humanism Posted by: Camin Harner
» Religions Growth Posted by: igoeja
Religious People are Stupid
Posted by: igoeja on Dec 15, 2006 3:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have you ever seen the correlation between intelligence and religiosity? The more religious a person or group, the more stupid.

An article published last year showed the relationship of religiosity and country social dysfunction. Regardless if religion is chicken or egg, it correlates with measure of social dysfunction, from STD's to murder. The secular and humanist societies, i.e., European ones, have better performance on measures of social welfare.

God is garbage!

» URL 1: Religion and IQ Posted by: igoeja
» URL 3: Race and IQ Posted by: Krotos
» URL 4: Height and IQ Posted by: Krotos
» Muddy the Waters Posted by: igoeja
» Small correlation Posted by: igoeja
» RE: Muddy the Waters Posted by: Krotos
» Belief-O-Matic Posted by: igoeja
» Nonsensical Dichotomy Posted by: igoeja
» RE: As stupid as you? I doubt it. Posted by: theistfree
» Stupid as Who? Posted by: igoeja
» RE: Stupid as Who? Posted by: MAD
» RE: eligious People are Stupid Posted by: carcinoid112
An Atheist Bullies the Faithful
Posted by: cul on Dec 15, 2006 4:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and its about time.

Is it intolerant to be intolerant toward intolerance? Do racial or religious bigots have an inalienable right to be such?

I say "no" to both questions.

Is there a difference between blind faith in exclusionary religions and acknowledging a sense of awe about universal existence?

Yes.

Is rationality superior to spirituality. No.
Is rationality superior to faith? Yes.

an extremist to tip the balance
Posted by: schnoggi on Dec 15, 2006 4:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
religions go way too far in the direction of ignorance, and almost everything Dawkins says is quite right on, so while I may not ultimately approve of his obvious smug fundamentalism (using the word "wrong" is so incredibly lazy, on either side), his is the towering voice of rejection of all this stupid religious bulshit that the world has been waiting for for too long. I hate religions too, but i also realize you don't lead anyone to health by simply disdaining what they've been force-fed their whole lives. And we have no idea whatsoever about the unseen forces that shape the world; if someone crows with certainty that science showed them the answers to this question, then they're just as much of an idiot as some verse-quoting peasant.

» ahhh...spoken like a true agnostic Posted by: psychochurch
All I Can Say Is...
Posted by: pcushniesr on Dec 15, 2006 4:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... Go, Richard!

The religious right is atheist so why support atheists?
Posted by: superfeduphoosier on Dec 15, 2006 4:12 AM   
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I guess there's no respect for the religious left here. Very Sad !

» Jeff, thanks. :) Posted by: superfeduphoosier
Lakshmi whistles past the graveyard
Posted by: Moonray on Dec 15, 2006 4:14 AM   
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What an elaborate rationalization this article is. Somehow the author has managed to turn the truth-teller into a villain -- and the villainous dealers in bloodthirsty fantasies into heroes.

Using this same approach one could warn the world about those who dare complain about superstitions of all stripes. How dare they question our fear of walking under ladders or of spilling the salt? They must be narrow-minded and doctrinaire if they fail to share our horror at offending unseen spirits. (Just because we can't see those spirits doesn't mean they're not there.)

Actually, it's sad that today many of us have to defend ourselves for not believing in Zeus or Thor or Whoever, while the myth-peddlers continue to pillage the planet. And people like Lakshmi certainly aren't much help.

» RE: Lakshmi whistles past the graveyard Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: Lakshmi whistles past the graveyard Posted by: outsideagitator
Religion at its core
Posted by: Camin Harner on Dec 15, 2006 4:36 AM   
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Religion at its core is an alternate pathway to understanding, one that uses stories and symbols to express the very human longing for something bigger and more durable than our brief lives and for some kind of communal oneness with that something. Religion may well be a human construct, but the impulse or need that prompts it is real enough and universal enough that maybe we should take it seriously.

And if you read that and find yourself sputtering that only empirically verifiable reality matters, that if it can't be taught in a science class then it can't really be true, that all non-linear thought "fucking blows," consider how it is that art and poetry work to create a new understanding in those who view or read it: they use metaphor, stories, symbols, rather than literal, falsifiable truth, to make us understand something in a new way.

Before you let your dogmatic beliefs get ahead of the available evidence, show a little humility and concede that there's still much about how the human brain works (indeed, about how language works) to make sense of our world that we don't know and may never know, and allow that in that indeterminacy, alternative pathways to understanding that yield its practitioners and believers joy and wisdom should not be dismissed lightly.

» More New Age twaddle . . . Posted by: Moonray
» RE: More New Age twaddle . . . Posted by: Camin Harner
» RE: More New Age twaddle . . . Posted by: Camin Harner
» RE: More New Age twaddle . . . Posted by: liberalyours
» RE: eligion at its core Posted by: kelt65
» RE: eligion at its core Posted by: theistfree
» RE: eligion at its core Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: eligion at its core Posted by: liberalyours
I Awake The Spirit Of Thomas Paine!
Posted by: solarjin on Dec 15, 2006 4:55 AM   
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What do you expect Dawkins to say, "Let God be with you, let us now go in peace."?

It's a perspective shift, the world doesn't mean the same thing to an atheist as a theist, so it's ridiculous to compare atheism to f'ing fundamentalism.

Like Dawkins says, religion is like a slit in a veil through which religious people view the world. Athiests on the other hand are given a much more complex picture. An infinite array of false gods, ideological memes that humans abuse to allude to control over the world.

To comprehend atheism, humans must understand:

"The "even if," which we have already recognized as marking the most important moment of metaphysical rebellion, is in any case only fulfilled in absolute destruction. It is not the nobility of rebellion that illuminates the world today, but nihilism. And it is the consequences of nihilism that we must retrace, without losing sight of the truth innate in its origins. Even if God existed, Ivan (The Rebel) would never surrender to Him in the face of injustice done to man. But a longer contemplation of this injustice, a more bitter approach, transformed the "even if you exist," into "you do not deserve to exist," therefore "you do not exist." The victims have found in their own innocence the justification of the final crime (to kill God.)" Albert Camus, "The Rebel"

Man to be man hate to be man.
Man to be God hate to be man.
God to be God hate to be God.
God to be man hate to be God.

This supernatural entity, "to be" is a superlative injustice to humankind in all forms. Truth is relative, to realize this you must be what you are.

» "Truth is relative"? To what? Posted by: Sojourner
» "If you 'realize what you are'" Posted by: Sojourner
Watch the film for free on Google Video
Posted by: dannyboybell on Dec 15, 2006 4:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For some reason I couldn't post the full links but just go to google.video.com and search for "the root of all evil" and part 2 of the film is "the virus of fatih"...

and for those who are not aware of the Church Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster you might wanna check out this link:

http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

can i have my 10 minutes back please?
Posted by: cemdev on Dec 15, 2006 5:10 AM   
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attack the message by attacking the messenger. classic default position when the message holds some merit. can i have the 10 minutes i spent reading this article back please?

this article is not a progressive one...
Posted by: xenacat on Dec 15, 2006 5:12 AM   
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It is high time some one took on the bible thumping fanaticism that has been tearing our country and the world apart lately. This article still evinces the gutlessness that progressive have shown in dealing with the religious intolerance of the right wing. Those folks have gutted seperation of church and state, seriously abridged women's rights, made gays pariahs and have done so in hateful, underhanded ways. That a backlash has started against them is both unsurprizing and inevitable. Dawkins doesn't deserve the childish name calling Chaudhry gives him. What we deserve as progressive readers is a non-fearful, thoughtful look at the leader of what well maybe a new movement of people heartily sick of being forced to accept religious zealotry as the norm for the nation.

At least the 8-year old girl was funny
Posted by: lotus23 on Dec 15, 2006 5:31 AM   
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At least the "coolest 8-year-old in the world" on YouTube was funny. In case you haven't seen the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8x14cLGh5o

Of course, I can't resist anyone who takes a jab at Bill O'Reilly! (...who attacked the video as "child abuse", despite the disclaimer of her being a "talented young actor.")

As far as left and right are concerned, do not forget that Ayn Rand was a "fundamentalist atheist." Thus, you don't need to have religion to be a rigid dogmatic fanatical cult leader possessed with a psychotic paranoia of aposty. Anyone can be a jerk. Of course, Ms. Rand was a marginal figure (outside Rush lyrics.)

Religion brings out the best and worst in people.

Pardon my unbelief
Posted by: hquain on Dec 15, 2006 5:31 AM   
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The fact is that most people string along with religion, llike other social commitments, and only get agitated when it comes under attack. Dawkins recognizes this and plays on it -- the Borat of theology.

In the end, we can hope that it will all redound to the good. Perhaps the religionists and their fellow travelers will tire of repeating their silly claims of symmetry. Perhaps the bulk of the population, whose lives shout nonbelief in virtually every act, will shift toward a more direct acknowledgment of what they actually believe in.

» "out of loyalty to the tribe" Posted by: counterpoint
Bullshit
Posted by: kelt65 on Dec 15, 2006 5:36 AM   
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This article is pure crap.

Monotheistic Religeon is BULLSHIT. More specifically, Abrahamic religeons, which are not so much religeons as tools for social control by way of individual repression.

I am an atheist but have nothing aginst religeon at all. I do have something against the Abrahamic religeons, which are sterile, disgusting, morbid and express nothing but hatred for life and reality itself.

I don't think I need to regurgitate the arguments against Christianity put forth by Nietzsche, Bakunin et. al. If you are a Monotheist, please aquaint yourself with them.

New rule
Posted by: bentz on Dec 15, 2006 5:37 AM   
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Religious people hold on to their beliefs like a horny lonely dog on a chair leg, defensive as a vulture on its newly killed carcasse. Nobody can get too close without risk of impetuous wrath. Atheists and critics of religions are censored because they are unveiling the strongest tabou. Most religion are dangerously phony and fraudulently used by powerful people to num the masses, to paraphrase Marx. The average pal everywhere in the world is incapable of playing in the field of true spirituality. Myths and legends, despite their literary value, are not real and let's put this in your hat. A large portion of people want to shove their world view in everybody's throat, it's justice that atheist and skeptics do the same. Isn't that the rule now. Remember the You're either with us or you're against us... or something like that.

» RE: New rule Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: New rule Posted by: bentz
Atheist Activism is a 2-edged Sword: it grows Young Atheists & excites the Death-Terror of Theists
Posted by: emmanuel_goldstein_fights_fake_lefties on Dec 15, 2006 5:45 AM   
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What Dawkins is doing here is a 2 edged sword--it has benefits and dangers. For one, by having such a visible pro-atheism stance on the Net, he is attrating the attention of young people who have not yet been molded and made into theists. Most young people can still change. Getting to young people is how a new paradigm can be built. Once a person adopts a world view of politics and religion, that person integrates that worldview into his/her personality and uses it to manage his/her death-terror--to still the awareness of inevitable death by building a secret psychological "death room."
This is where people hide away their fear of death. Kind of like where "Norman" of the movie Psycho kept his long dead, mummified mother.

THese people cannot adopt a new world view (e.g., cannot switch to atheism later in life) because that would excite their death terror by threatening their "death room" that they have constructed and hidden away in their minds.


However, the downside to Dawkins' activism is that he is exciting the Death Terror and threatening the deathrooms of theists, believers. When people's death rooms are threatened, the overclass and politicians can pander to that fear and use it to gain power ("I'm a WAR PRESIDENT!").

So, Dawkins is gaining new young atheists, but he had better be careful.

We Don't need no more religion:
Posted by: wawa on Dec 15, 2006 5:58 AM   
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WE need Spiritual depth:




She picked up her red guitar then strummed the chords to "All Along the Watchtower" and began to sing just a breath above a whisper:


"All I've got is a red guitar, Three chords and The Truth.

All I've got is my bleedin' heart, and a voice cryin' out

of the wilderness to you

I see there is a way out of here,

a way to get some relief




I AM very small, I AM so very very small,

So small as to indwell the heart of every atom,

and I AM beyond your comprehension...


'Wisdom has built her house and She calls to all; "Come, eat my food and drink my wine and you will live abundant life and walk in the ways of understanding." [*Proverbs 9: 4-6]



Holy Wisdom, Hokema: THE FEMININE DIVINTY

Who was with The Word from the very beginning,

She is One with Him and He with Her;

Pure Being; One God;

One Creator; One Lover of All the Human Family...



Rabbi Hillel lived 100 years before The Christ walked the earth

and he knew that the Hebrew understanding of Hokema; Holy Wisdom:
THE FEMININE DIVINITY

was the same as the Greek understanding of The Logos: The Word.


It was Paul and John who first understood

The Word was good and

The Word was The Logos

The Word is The Christ

+

"The Word is just The Way and The Word is Love"

Use your imagination:

before Christ walked the earth a man,

He was already a She: Hokema, Holy Wisdom; the Feminine Divinity

and isn't that good news?


The God Head is One Pure Being;

as much male as female

as much mommy as daddy.

And we are all children of Her Universe;

And He is the oldest personality because He is the origin of everything;

and everything is born of Him.

He is the supreme controller of the universe,

the maintainer and instructor of humanity.

He is smaller than the smallest.


He indwells the heart of every atom and

She is beyond the Universe.

Wisdom is calling,

She is rattling your windows and shaking your walls:



Get out your Good Book sisters and brothers and chew on this;

Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-29, and Luke 12:10

are simpatico with "heretical" Thomas saying 44:

'Jesus said: "Whoever blasphemes against the father will be forgiven, whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either on earth or in heaven."


God is within every sister, brother and all Creation,

wake up to your own divinity and

Get a clue Christian:

His ways are not your ways and Her thoughts are not your thoughts

Dominion never meant to rape and plunder,

but to nurture, care and love

And if you have not love, you have nothing at all

And on that final day we all will stand naked before The Creator

And we have been warned that there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth

by those who were so sure they were in, because they are the ones left out.


WAKE UP Christian,

Hear the wind begin to howl."


www.WeAreWideAwake.org

If the unexamined life is not worth living...
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle on Dec 15, 2006 6:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...Will examination make it look better?

Let 'em all huff and puff. Have a nice whatever. :-)

Hatchet Job
Posted by: Grimnir on Dec 15, 2006 6:26 AM   
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Nice hatchet job. But why?

The Faithful Have Been Bullying The Rest Of Us For A Long Time
Posted by: Douglas on Dec 15, 2006 6:26 AM   
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Sometimes what goes around comes around! And about time, too!!!

» RE: And about time, too!!! Posted by: meddlehead
Atheism is not a faith, nor a dogma...
Posted by: c.dric on Dec 15, 2006 6:31 AM   
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Arguing that 'new' atheists are fundamentalist believers is just silly. We're not atheists because we want to believe there is no god, we are because we base our judgment on reason and observation.

from Sam Harris in Letter to a Christian Nation :
"Auschwitz, the Soviet gulags, and the killing fields of Cambodia are not examples of what happens to people when they become too reasonable. To the contrary, these horrors testify to the dangers of political or racial dogmatism. It is time that Christians[/believer] like yourself stop pretending that a rational rejection of your faith entails the blind embrace of atheism as a dogma. One need not accept anything on insufficient evidence to find the virign birth of Jesus to be a preposterous idea. The problem with religion - as with Nazism, Stalinism, or any other totalitarian mythology - is the problem of dogma itself. I know of no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too desirous of evidence in support of their core beliefs. (pp. 42-43)"

Compromise?
Posted by: douglashoyt on Dec 15, 2006 6:35 AM   
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I see no reason to compromise with absurbity.

Religion, with its belief in "god," is absurd.

» well... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» silly clever sayings are not truth Posted by: monkopotamus
» RE: well... Posted by: harris
» RE: well... Posted by: harris
» monkey see monkey do Posted by: monkopotamus
The heart of a heartless world
Posted by: Halfdram on Dec 15, 2006 6:38 AM   
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Atheists believe it is worth discussing whether supernatural beings exist. How weird is that?

As some have pointed out, religion exists as a response to despair. If we want to get rid of religion, we need to create a world with a heart and soulful conditions, where people don't feel they need opium. Telling people they're wrong to think they need to wear a scarf on their heads is not part of this process. Telling people with scarves on their heads that they're not welcome in secular schools or secular society is counterproductive.

Understanding the social roots of religion and science is certainly part of the process, but trying to create a facile equivalency is just silly.

» makin' up rules Posted by: monkopotamus
» RE: makin' up rules Posted by: Halfdram
The only thing worse...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Dec 15, 2006 6:49 AM   
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.. than a religious zealot is an atheistic zealot. The religious are usually MUCH more accepting of the faiths of others.. and we all know how accepting religious zealots are of other faiths.

For the record, I'm an agnostic Buddhist.

» RE: The only thing worse... Posted by: theistfree
» whine Posted by: monkopotamus
» RE: The only thing worse... Posted by: harris
» you make a good point, though. nm Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» joshuadudd and his magical logic Posted by: monkopotamus
» RE: monkopotamus and his amazing... Posted by: carcinoid112
Alternets credibility in bad shape
Posted by: ailiergauche on Dec 15, 2006 6:49 AM   
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Any credibility that Alternet still had swirling the drain has been flushed with this article. These kind of pathetic attacks come at Dawkins from all directions. He can't be argued with because his stance is reasonable; it's based in rational thought. The only way that religious people have to possibly discredit him is to draw a false parallel between what he is doing and what they are doing. It wont work, one is fantasy based the other is reality based. We already know that they think torturing their own supposed savior was a good thing. Torturing logic should be no problem after that.

» So the ends justify the means? Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: So the ends justify the means? Posted by: ailiergauche
» less it says the better Posted by: monkopotamus
Uppity Atheist
Posted by: theistfree on Dec 15, 2006 6:50 AM   
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So Richard Dawkins does not know how to keep his place. Well.. You know how "Those People" are.

Next thing you know they will want to run for president or marry your daughter.

Putting religion on the same level as science is ridiculous. Man can and for many of us do live perfectly happy productive lives, never once thinking of this god fellow so many like. BUT show me anyone who can exist in this modern world without actively or passively enjoying the gifts science had given man? Even if you never set foot in a doctors office or hospital your life is much longer because control of disease. (evil spirits for you religious types)

Religion is as useful as other feel-good practices like astrology.

Get over it, in the future religion will just be this thing early man use to engage in before science showed him the finer points of reality.

» backwards logic again Posted by: monkopotamus
The Voice of the Voiceless
Posted by: gtroyp on Dec 15, 2006 6:55 AM   
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Dawkins is only rude to those who believe in the unbelievable. Those of us who have thought deeply about the true nature of religion see it as it is, a vestige of a time long since passed. As Sam Harris pointed out, no one feels the least bit uneasy about calling ancient Greek religion mythology, or anyone who would adhere to it crazy. Yet, we are not supposed to call those who believe in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God crazy as well?
As an Atheist who lives in America, in Texas for Pete's sake, I am glad that there is a conversation starting about the need for rationality and for the loss of supernatural explanations. I am grateful to Dawkins and others for starting a conversation that many do not want us to have because it challenges their power.

P.S. Atheist means not believing in any God, not just being anti-Christian.

» RE: The Voice of the Voiceless Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» someone hand it a mirror Posted by: monkopotamus
lost respect for lakshmi chaudhry
Posted by: monkopotamus on Dec 15, 2006 6:58 AM   
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i've lost respect for lakshmi chaudhry. what a hare-brained review.

how disapointing that chaudhry did not read the book in it's entirety before writing the review. it's obvious chaudhry thought it more important to defend religion than write a balanced review.

please have an editor read chandhry before just putting up any old crap written.

I'm with Dawkins ALL THE WAY!
Posted by: New10 on Dec 15, 2006 7:06 AM   
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Let's be fair here... let's let the BIBLE (both Old and New Testaments) speak for itself :

To be a follower of Jesus you must hate your children.
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." -- Luke 14:26

Parents should beat their children.
"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." -- Proverbs 13:24
"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him." -- Proverbs 22:15
"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." -- Proverbs 23:13-14


Disobedient children must be executed.
"He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death." -- Exodus 21:15-17
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." -- Leviticus 20:9

"God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." -- Matthew 15:4

God's instructions for selling your daughter
"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant...." -- Exodus 21:7

Oh, and there's much, much more....

Until I start hearing actual churches DENOUNCE these horrific statements, I'm going to keep my family far, far away from this claptrap and work to expose it for what it is.

Remember, there exists ZERO evidence for ANY of the 2500+ gods that humans have dreamed up. Morality comes from within our hearts, each person chooses to get along with others or not. Ever thought about the puzzle of prayer vs. free will. Are we free to make our way in our lives, or not. If a god is willing to intervene on behalf of your prayer, then isn't that god then guilty of altering the free will of everyone else around you? We can't have it both ways.

Our secular laws serve as a far better model for us than any of these ancient fairytales. The "something bigger than ourselves" we can belong to is our families, friends and common society. We no longer need the myth of a man-god-in-the-sky, if we ever did. Time we moved on folks.

I'm with Dawkins ALL THE WAY!

» or in the vernacular... Posted by: badkitty
» RE: I'm with Dawkins ALL THE WAY! Posted by: righteousbabe
» RE: I'm with Dawkins ALL THE WAY! Posted by: dannyboybell
"fucking blows"?
Posted by: scott balogh on Dec 15, 2006 7:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What does this phrase mean? I wish that if people choose to insult someone they would not use sexual terms to do it. Regarding this article, I believe Richard Dawkins is on the right track. However, bullying religious people can get one killed. Go Mr. Dawkins and may Mr. and Mrs. God watch over you.

» RE: "fucking blows"? Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: "fucking blows"? Posted by: Landbaron
No Fundamentalist
Posted by: pcushniesr on Dec 15, 2006 7:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There has been much commentary here to the affect that Dawkins is simply another kind of strident fundamentalist. I deplore the word “fundamentalist” because of all its negative connotations and dislike seeing it applied to someone I admire. For this reason, let me come to his defense. Those who read “The God Delusion” will recall the chapter entitled “Why There Almost Certainly is No God,” in which the author discusses the “argument from improbability.” I don’t wish to re-write the chapter here, so I’ll just make some broad references. Notice the title of the chapter just mentioned. It uses the word “Almost.” The meaning of this chapter is that “God” MOST PROBABLY does not exist. Dawkins does not definitively say that “God” does not exist, because he does not want to place himself in the sticky position of having to prove a negative. This allows for the possibility, however improbable, that a god of some kind does actually exist somewhere, perhaps hiding behind an asteroid in the asteroid belt. I believe this approach safely removes Dawkins from the realm of fundamentalism, for what religious fundamentalist would allow for even a teensy weensy possibility that their god does not exist, that everything they believe just might be wrong? The true believer simply does not allow for any degree of uncertainty, hence the adage: “Truth belongs to science; certainty to religion.”

No, Dawkins gives more wiggle room to theists than any theist ever gave to a non-believer.

I call bullshiet
Posted by: Ghoulman on Dec 15, 2006 7:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dawkins' fondness for sweeping generalizations reflects his own deep-seated fundamentalism, a virulent form of atheism that mirrors the polarized worldview of the religious extremists it claims to oppose.

Bullshit. No atheist ever blew scores of people to hell, if you will.

Get real, I've seen a bit of this documentary from Dawkins... the time he went to Colorado and met with Haggert, Haggert physically threatened Dawkins on camera. It was scary watching a giant Christian secret meth user (and gay massage lover) slowly approaching and towering over the diminutive Dawkins. Guess this article found this too shocking to mention while this article, uh, mentioned the meeting anyway? Just left that bit out eh ?

I certainly don't agree with Dawkins that religion is the root cause of evil (money is, religion is just the excuse and rational), but to write yet another article trying, desperately, to spin and twist facts into the opposite extreme is, frankly, just the sort of ignorant shit people reading American writers are getting sick of.

» RE: I call bullshiet Posted by: MAD
» RE: I call bullshiet Posted by: dannyboybell
» RE: I call bullshiet Posted by: babs
» RE: I call bullshiet Posted by: Doubtom
» Money the root of evil? Posted by: Torgo
The Root Problem
Posted by: NoPCZone on Dec 15, 2006 7:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem throughout history has not been a person, group or society's faith or lack of faith; the problem has been intolerance of any opposing or tangential viewpoint.

Repression, violence, hostilities, murder and genocide have happened, many times against the very teachings of the 'true' faith, because of the intolerance of any dissent or non-conformity. An intolerant branch of atheism is just as dangerous and holds as much potential for evil as any intolerant religion.

I am a Christian and make no apology for it. However, I would never defend those who have abused a message of love, peace and grace for private purposes or political agendas. Despite the record of history, Christians are to live in peace among non-believers and are to respect the civil authority they live under. Followers are instructed that each person is a free moral agent and has the right to accept or reject the teachings of the Bible. Any Christian who disputes this has either been seriously misled or is in denial.

I do not wish to live in a theocracy of any brand. I also do not wish to live in an officially atheist state. A society where people are free to follow their conscience while living in a tolerant and respectful way is the only society that will allow us to all live together in peace.

» RE: The Root Problem Posted by: boing007
» RE: The Root Problem Posted by: NoPCZone
Ban Religion - The Root of All Evil
Posted by: patvic1405 on Dec 15, 2006 8:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That says it all from me.

And God Commanded: BASH that Atheist!!!
Posted by: Urmutt on Dec 15, 2006 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lakshmi Chaudray is obviously a devout Hindu and her effort to try to diminish Dawkins confirms exactly the primary point that he and other Atheists make, that Religious Devouts are incapable of dealing with any other views but their own and are determined to proselytize their faith whether we like it or not.

I happen to be a confirmed Atheist myself. When folks ask why I don't believe in God, my response is simple: Why not the Tooth Fairy too? For anyone to believe that there's this being up there in the sky who got nothing better to do than listen to THEIR pathetic prayers is the height of egotism.

And IF there was a God, I'd want it to be a Woman with a great Bod like Cameron Diaz....

The "TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT" ruse
Posted by: LMNOP on Dec 15, 2006 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"... the murder and mayhem inevitably wreaked by true believers. His evidence: the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Crusades, the 9/11 attacks, and less spectacular crimes against humanity like suicide bombers, anti-abortion killers, and so on.

"This broad-stroked caricature of faith is delivered with a breathtaking disregard for historical context, in which social, political or economic conditions are simply ignored or discounted."


Here's a good thing to do mentally whenever you are told that something is taken out of context.

But first, what does that mean, "taken out of context"? That means only one thing: by itself, one impression is made by an utterance, but restored to its native linguistic environment of surrounding ideas, it is clear that a different meaning was intended. Example: "she said drop dead." changes meaning when, "I don't believe that ..." precedes "... she said drop dead.” I'm actually saying the opposite, but you can’t tell without the missing context.

So, here's the test that that claim should ALWAYS be put to. What is the missing context? What were the words or ideas that have been left out that would indicate that the linguistic snip allegedly out of context meant something other than what it seems to mean when reintroduced? You'll find that it almost never happens that such context is offered or requested.

This is a wonderfully dishonest way to say that something doesn't mean what it seems to mean and in fact did mean without having to explain or demonstrate.

So, in the quote above, Dawkins' concept is that religion has caused or helped to cause some of the worst chapters in human history, and he names a few. The author claims that this is misunderstanding the church's role in the Inquisition or the Crusades by ignoring the historical context.

Okay then, what historical truth when added to the story reveals that the church did not condone or cause the suffering and death that Dawkins alleges? What surrounding events from the periods' histories helps me to see that Dawkins is misunderstanding organized religion's role in those murderous undertakings, truths that would make it clear that the church wasn't guilty or as guilty of the atrocities that Dawkins contention allege? None. Add back all of the missing history that you like, the implications of the record remain the exactly same: unlike atheism, the church and organized religion have caused - or condoned, as with the Nazis and Klan - war, torture and death.

Tell me what about the Salem witch trials seems less egregious once the missing historical context is filled in. What missing context? Maybe if there had just recently been a bona fide alien visitation in seventeenth century Massachusetts, we might find less fault with witch hunters. It's not hard to imagine things that might have been true that would change the meaning of an action, but when you make the claim that they exist, you need to say what they are and why they matter, something this author, like most, doesn't do.

One more: When Cheney said, "Fuck you" to Senator Leahy on the floor of the US Senate, he later claimed that he was being taken out of context, that what sounds like an angry, rude and uncivil utterance was in fact something else that the surrounding conversation elucidates. In other words, "You may have heard 'fuck you', but you misunderstood." Then prove it.

» I'M LOST Posted by: LMNOP
Why There Will Always Be Religion
Posted by: janastasopoulo on Dec 15, 2006 8:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I myself am an atheist, but I must say religion is something that we will never be rid of, regardless of the overwhelming amount of evidence against it to the contrary. The reason is simple. Religion answers the question that has no answer: what is the purpose of life? Science answers the *how*, and but can never answer the *why*. Science cannot answer the *why* because there IS no why. The idea of *purpose* itself, the idea that there must be a purpose to life, is our own creation. We make our own purpose , because the overwhelming and, perhaps (to some), unfortunate reality of life is that the is no reason for life, at least not the metaphysical/spiritual one that we so desperately need for our psyche.

That being said, when you have arguments with religious people, they will map the method of religious argument onto science and try to show you that there is some kind of inherent flaw with scientific reasioning because, for example, "science dosen't explain everything." But the fallacy in such a statement is that science does not claim to explain "everything". The progress of science comes from thousands of people working on small discoveries that, when compiled, creates a body of knowledge that is greater than the sum of its parts.

The conflict between science and religion arises almost purely out of a conflict of method. Science uses reason to understand the pieces of a puzzle , religion uses imagination, fear and emotion to force people into believing that the puzzle is already assembled, you just have to will its image to make it true. How nice life would be if we could will things into existence!

» RE: Why There Will Always Be Religion Posted by: outsideagitator
Mother Earth is our God.
Posted by: WitchyNy on Dec 15, 2006 8:18 AM   
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IF we all believed that the Earth was God...then it would be a sin to pollute. It would be a commandment to recyle, and grow food organically. It would be a sin to pollute the air or the land or the water, and our sacred duty to protect all species and use natural resources thoughtfully.

Many Native people still think this way.
And be it inspired religion or the literal scientific truth...does it matter?

Atheism Is Not Fundamentalism
Posted by: janastasopoulo on Dec 15, 2006 8:33 AM   
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It is the absence of belief and the refusal to swallow prepackaged, irrational theories about the creation of the universe. It is the brave ability to cope with existence despite the fact that it has no meaning. It is reconciling our worst fears and being OK with them. It is dealing with life as it is rather than life as it should be or how we wish it to be.

» Actually... Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: THANK YOU! Posted by: carcinoid112
goeswithness
Posted by: goeswithness on Dec 15, 2006 8:34 AM   
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I don't particularly believe in God either, but the fact is that religion and science are two different things and answer different kind of questions, and fulfil different needs. No, there's no proof God exists; there's no proof he doesn't either. That's the end of the logic question. If someone says God whispered in their ear, who am I to say that didn't happen? All I have the right to say is that God never whispered in mine.

I think that it's wrong, short sighted, blind to say things like religion is responsible for more bad than good. Look at any humanitarian and altruistic movement and you'll find people behind it who are acting out of faith. Even now, every progressive, activist organization is largely spurred by the faithful. I wouldn't know where to go to look for facts and figures, but I've been told by a reliable source that the largest charity in the US is Catholic Charities and the second largest is Lutheran Charities. If anybody does know where to look, let's check it out.

But no matter how illogical you think religion is, the simple fact is that crawling in people's faces and telling them they're wrong is an offensive act of disrespect and indecency, no matter who it comes from. Telling somebody how to think is an intolerable act. I suppose it does reflect the times, when aggression is met by aggression, but it really shows me, as do many of the comments here, that although logic is claimed, it's really emotion - anger, fear, threat - that is ruling the day.

It's a bit of a shock to me that comments here turn on the writer of the article. NOBODY should be above being questioned. Nobody gets free reign. Right? Isn't that what we say we believe? Be grateful somebody is asking these questions and reminding us not to give anyone a free pass.

» RE: goeswithness Posted by: janastasopoulo
» RE: goeswithness Posted by: outsideagitator
A Sad Day For All Atheists
Posted by: AntiChrist on Dec 15, 2006 8:40 AM   
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As an atheist, I find Dawkin's arrogant atheism saddening. One cannot forget the good that religion does for people, and even the community at times. Furthermore, one cannot lose respect for fellow human beings, at the risk of losing their own humanity. It is inhumane to make fun of someone, even if you disagree with their beliefs. The truth is that nothing people believe in is absolutely flawless, and to think that your belief is so is to be naive. Our beliefs influence our actions and our personhood, but we cannot forget our humanity in an effort to support our beliefs, for only humans have beliefs. Dawkins is forgetting his humanity, by completely degrading others. In a debate with Collins in Time Magazine, he calls Orthodox Christians "clowns". He clearly thinks that religious belief is ridiculous. However, he puts himself in a position deserving no more respect than your average middle school bully by his words and verbal attacks. If one wants to be recognized and wants to change the world, she/he should try respect and sounding intelligent. Attacking and disrespect only make one look as stupid as they would paint others as being.

» RE: A Sad Day For All Atheists Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: A Sad Day For All Atheists Posted by: theistfree
» RE: A Sad Day For All Atheists Posted by: outsideagitator
» RE: A Sad Day For All Atheists Posted by: AntiChrist
» RE: A Sad Day For All Atheists Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: A Sad Day For All Atheists Posted by: AntiChrist
YOU CAN'T COMPARE SCIENCE TO FAITH
Posted by: LMNOP on Dec 15, 2006 8:40 AM   
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Religion has not added one iota of fact to mankind's knowledge. It offers stories and platitudes that quiet the soul's (secular meaning) native search for more useful answers. Religion offers comfort the way an adult comforts a child: with whatever words sound most comforting.

Of course, it's also religion that makes us need comforting with talk of intrinsic sinfulness and eternal damnation to the unsaved. Religion has terrified man with myths of devils and supernatural evil, then comforts him by asking for blind, unquestioning belief and obedience. Just like the neocons with their exaggerated threats of terrorism and demands for noncritical conformity.

Science does not cause wars. It can't. It's a method. Nor do scientists start wars. Politicians and heads of state, most affiliated with some church, start wars using the fruits of science. Science discovers how uranium and radioactivity work. It does not suggest how to use it. Killers put it into bombs. Other people treat disease with radiation or power space exploration. Science makes both possible.

Science has given us much, and to all of us. Religion has given only comfort and only to those comforted by platitudes, parables and legends. It has demanded unquestioned loyalty and obedience from people and then abused that trust by sending them to kill and die under false pretenses, also a neocon specialty.

We who do not need or like religion are tired of giving lip service to faith. To us, it is guessing and it is nothing to be respected or encouraged, like needlessly dropping out of high school. But we are asked to respect that option in a positive way. No. Instead, we discourage it and tolerate it until the human race outgrows it.

And the winner is...
Posted by: famouspipeliner on Dec 15, 2006 8:44 AM   
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It's time to declare a winner in the god/no god debate. There is no god. End of debate.

» Ding Ding Ding...You're Correct Sir Posted by: janastasopoulo
» I think... Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: I think... Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: And the winner is... Posted by: Landbaron
This article
Posted by: willymack on Dec 15, 2006 8:45 AM   
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Know why this article is a good one? Just look at the responses. It's a joy to see so many thinking people in one place. Much better than reading Weekly World News or other tabloid trash, don't you think?

» RE: This article Posted by: harris
Correct forms of bigotry
Posted by: healinghawk on Dec 15, 2006 9:09 AM   
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Philosopy of Science examines Scientism. Not willingly, and not much, but there it is. Scientism is the religion of science, and, as Dawkins so brilliantly demonstrates, scientism is just as bigoted as any other form of fundamentalism. Dawkins is living evidence of education's failure. His PhD means no more than a religion degree from Bob Jones University. No less, but no more. An educational process that doesn't challenge our preconceived notions is no education, it seems to me.

A recovering Southern Baptist and Green fundamentalist, I am struck by the incredible difficulty of moderation and of balance. To see a leading intellectual behave in this way feels like enlightenment, to me. Invincible ignorance wins again. I feel sad to see such a capable mind saddled with the tyranny of certainty, thus rendered useless to the project of human evolution.

» RE: Correct forms of bigotry Posted by: janastasopoulo
» What topic are you discussing? Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Correct forms of bigotry Posted by: healinghawk
» RE: Correct forms of bigotry Posted by: healinghawk
» "behave in that way" - wtfayta Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: "behave in that way" - wtfayta Posted by: healinghawk
Dawkins is right, cept for the science plug...
Posted by: Neilium on Dec 15, 2006 9:11 AM   
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The belief in an all knowing entity rather than in oneself is just a cop out from self responsibility, a great way to excuse yourself for being part of a gang. And the earthly channel for this entity isn't seen as a dictator.
Dawkins is not alone in his thoughts on this matter, as I think much the same.
his statement about science on the other hand I totally dissagree with. I think Science right now is a loose cannon, haywire with commercial interests and capitalistic endeavours that will stop at nothing in their efforts to make money out of the masses. Look in Australia, the egomaniacs in govt, now will allow cloning of human embyo's so we can pull them apart and then.. kill them, all in the name of science. And remember this eh? that so called brilliant physicist in the wheelchair..... when asked the very big question.. as if he woud have a clue anyway, " was the universe made randomly or by design" the poor man showed his unintelligence by saying ' I beleive it was designed"
So much for science... his minute brain can't get around a question that is so stupid in the first place, he actually tried to answer it, when he had no answer. Of course the real answer is " fucked if I know mate, wake up to yourself and ask me something sensible"
Scientists are children in a playpen, nothing more. Give them a gun to play with they will kill you.

which one out of 4500?
Posted by: counterpoint on Dec 15, 2006 9:12 AM   
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here's a couple deities I compiled, in random order. The long list has over 4500 names.
WHICH IS IT GONNA BE?
Nergal, Obatala, Aigle, Aglauros, Egle, Heget, Yun Dun, Wainamoinen, Varpulis, Chloris, Bilfrost, Big Head, Nokomis, Charun, Cotys, Ull, Shen Nong, Angak' Chin Mana, Atropos, Nefertum, Nocoma, Nijole, Almudj, Ken, Skylla, Cauac, Zemyna, Koko, Xi Wangmu, Tiwaz, Chac Xib Chac, Coltus, Huang Gun, Djanggawul, Skadi, Erythia, Camenae, Hurrican, Nik, Ereshkegal, Thiassi, Kothar, Tamendonare, Madderakka, Arsnuphis, Anatiwa, Igigi, Turan, Seti, Dian Cecht, Heqet, Thalassa, Feng Shui, Philammon, Anet, Chu Jung, Anapel, Hemere, Hukere, God G, Da Yu, Styx, God E, Dreamtime, Kybele, Dijun, Muses, BellBirdBrothers, Endovelicus, Li Ba Bai, Atai, Xiuhtecuhtli, Estasanatlehi, Amalthea, Silvanus, Gucup Cakix, Achelois, Li Er, Neit, Arnakuagsak, Ndo'yet, Okypete, Buku, Untunktahe, Awitelin Tsta, Mwambu, Po, Laertes, Hapakhered, Mamaragan, Huixtocihuatl, Chu Pa Chieh, Ruhanga, Atahensic, Kan Ajana, Yan Luo Wang, Mephitis, Liu Hai, Calliope, Sinaa, Mehen, Ceucy, Gurumukas, T'ao T'ieh, Unktehi, Dylan, Geirskokul, Sandy, Ashtoreth, Kwatee, Ch'uang K'ung, Palee, Huwawa, Onuris, Rig, Baldur, Latinus, Nyikang, Coqui Huani, Harakan, Kanassa, Nun, Orans, Kamonou, Echidna, Hemera, Mamaragan, Han Hsien Tzu, Fotla, Issitoq, Viracocha, Sui Ren, Itzamna, Bon Dieu, Piquete Zina, Basuki, Bellifluficus, Spider Woman, Amun Ra, Illuyankas, Radgrid, Atum, Kek, Christ, Xuan Zang, Wuluwait, Cronus, Borr, Autrimpas, Amesha Spentas, Luk Xing, Month, Porewit, Ga Gaah, Tartaros, Guede, Mani, Ephialtes, Yu Shun, Charites, Allowat Sakima, Macuilcozcacuahtli, Tethys, Ix Chup, Things, Dongo, Metis, Sphinx, Jotunheim, Oreades, Louhi, Ah Tzul, Wandjina, Amn, Zephyros, Chulyen, Mamitu, Tlahuixcalpantec, Moloch, Auster, Suttung, Samanelis, Kumokum, DreamtimeSnake, Snoqalm, Striges, Namorodo, Thanatus, Rosmerta, Lofn, Sothis, Akbul, Rindr, Nereides, Ahuramazda, Taueret, Nine Worlds, Hypnos, Pihuechenyi, Pichana Gobeche, Menoetius, Leto, Xmulzencab, God S, Alicha, Ploutos, God Ch, Lu Ban, Ouranos, Xaman Ek, Kerberos, Blodeuedd, Tawhiri Ma Tea, Kherty, Tai Sui Xing, Hsi Ho, Yin, Hero Twins, Hope, Hun Nal Ye, Paiva, Limoniads, Ah Tzenul, Beydo, Ch'u Kiang Wang, Ramakian, Sibilja, Sosom, Kwolam, Khonsu, Jiang Qin Guang, Hodur, Invidia, Demas, Evus, Tuatha De Danann, Mon Moko, Theia, Yambe Akka, Lei Chen Tzu, Varuna, Valkyrja, Ah Puch, Soko, Gede, Mama Oullo, Atum Ra, Andai, Chalchiuhtlicue, Ehi, Athene, Icovellauna, Apollon, Jarilo, Cabracan, Asshur, Cocijo, Ned Er Tcher, Yu Ch'iang, Sha Wu Ching, Legba, Ix Chel, Penie, Poros, Sito, Pan, Annona, Taru, Ahea, Mebere, Zakar, Ilaheua, Zhao Xuantan, Shou Lao, Milu, Mimi, Taoism, Fornax, Epimelides, Orixa, Eshu, Gondul, Achilles, Cetha, Kapoonis, Darana, Manes, Roonikka, Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca, Harensnuphis, Kotihaltia, Alklha, Anaitis, Herne, Tammuz, Wuraka, Sigu, Heimdallr, Vari, Sotuknang, Ankhet, .....

Let's display signs of "666" where, when ever we can????
Posted by: Landbaron on Dec 15, 2006 9:13 AM   
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In England recently, a guy withh "666" on his license plate had such terrible luck and went down so low, and when he finally got rid of the car, his life miraculouly came back to normal. I'm not gonna display 666!!!

Science does not equal presumption
Posted by: Jim on Dec 15, 2006 9:13 AM   
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I've been reading a challenging new book, Megashift -- igniting spiritual power, by James Rutz. It focuses on the rapid growth of a different form of Christianity, mostly in Africa, Asia, and South America. This kind of Christianity is not based on denominations and authoritative leaders, but small groups of Spirit-empowered individuals.

But what makes this book relevant to this discussion is the explosion of miracles being reported. Cancer, AIDS, blindness, autism, and dozens of other diseases are being reported healed. There are reports of people being raised from the dead in 52 countries. Many of these reports seem to be documented.

How many miracles does it take to show an anti-supernatural assumption is unwarranted? If you are sure, without investigation, that these are all frauds, that is pure faith of the worst kind, just prejudiced presumption.

» RE: Science does not equal presumption Posted by: outsideagitator
I watched the video and...
Posted by: bookie on Dec 15, 2006 9:17 AM   
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did not see the strident Dawkins this article led me to believe. I saw an intelligent discussion on the issue of fundamentalist faiths. The person who really looked bad and arrogant was Haggard. See the video here. Search the god delusion

http://video.google.com/?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=wv&q=

Ego and Malice versus Compassion
Posted by: blindjackdaws on Dec 15, 2006 9:33 AM   
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What the world needs is more compassion.
We all have more in common than we seem to realize.
That doesn't mean we don't have differences also.
A unified move toward truth and respect would serve us much better than than fighting endlessly to defend flawed arguments.
People need to get their egos under control, realize what is truly important and stop being such jackasses.

Misses point
Posted by: rodneyg_53 on Dec 15, 2006 10:18 AM   
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The writer accuses science of things like eugenics and Hiroshima. These things are made possible by advances in science and technology, but they are the result of implementation by humans who use religion to justify the use. This nation's(USA) delusion that god is on our side and specifically blesses us results in the misuse of science and technology.

Channelling his godless Borat?
Posted by: Lawrence Walker on Dec 15, 2006 10:19 AM   
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Hmmm, maybe we need some real life Borats to shake things up, to test us, the masses, whether moderate or fundamentalist, no matter what "side" we're on. (Indeed, if we are still taking sides in this "my god is better than your god" contact sport, then we're missing out on a big chunk of what many call "enlightenment".

Thing is -- the irony is -- 'us-vs-them' tirades such as Dawkins' seem to work for millions of religious fundamentalists, both preacher and flock, and I for one would like to see the species' dependency on faith and flimsy logic/illogic fade away, the quicker the better. Like Dawkins, I do believe we would be better off if we put that piety into morals, universal morals, even at the expense of all this colorful, folkloric anthropomorphizing.

Where's the beef? Show me the money. Well, why not hold the supernatural to the same test as burgers and cash. Show me the god. Where is the god?

I was a lot more like Dawkins when I was 25 and 30 and even 35. But by 40, I had turned the corner toward a more patient, more accepting and more compassionate tone. Perhaps that is resignation. Perhaps it is wise and realistic. But there is one thing at least we know about a gentler approach: it is kind.

That sort of kindness is compassionate, and it can be clear-headed, very clear-headed, duped by no one and neither the puppet nor the victim of anyone. With that sort of perspective, we can achieve a very realistic and encompassing view of the world and of our own lives.

Dawkins is s RUDE Bugger ...
Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Dec 15, 2006 10:25 AM   
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but then, he's from a counry with an Established State Religion, and an educational system that STILL has manditory Anglican Chapel in its State High Schools ...

And, having had to deferr to a great deal of arrogant pietistic nonesense over a lifetime ... Dawkins has decided to push back -- VERBALLY!

And the Godly can't take it.

Tough !!

England may be a little weak on Freedom of Religion ... but they still have protected free speech.

» Socially advanced ... Posted by: AdamSelene40
note that Dawkins fought against the "all evil" title but lost
Posted by: counterpoint on Dec 15, 2006 10:33 AM   
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in a remarkable podcast interview (look for it on pointofinquiry.org Dawkins says he fought against the producers NOT to use that title because he thinks it is an obvious falsehood. All he managed to do was make them use the question mark.

otto
Posted by: otto on Dec 15, 2006 10:40 AM   
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The article reminded me of something I was taught years ago: that atheists BELIEVE that there is no God, just as theists BELIEVE that there is a God. It's not a case of belief as opposed to pure knowledge or science. Thanks, Lakshmi, for reminding me. It's nice to see the same conclusions reached from a purely rational point of view.

» RE: otto Posted by: lamar
» make your own bumpersticker Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: otto Posted by: bert69
Dawkins shows what is fundamentally wrong with religion
Posted by: counterpoint on Dec 15, 2006 11:08 AM   
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but does that make him a fundamentalist in the sense of a believer? No, he presents a line of argument (especially in his book) that one can examine to see whether his conclusions are warranted. If you look at the load of proofs that have been claimed over the centuries with regard to deities it's instructive to see that logic, deduction, and evidence have left a pile of rubble where theologians once strode.
At what point, may I ask, is it okay to call it quits and admit that some vague feeling on spirituality is not sufficient as a base for vastly contradictory but otherwise totally unsupported counterintuitive claims about the nature of the universe and the 'role' and duties of us humans?
It's been time for a long time.

Separate Violence Issue from Reality Issue
Posted by: harlan8 on Dec 15, 2006 11:09 AM   
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Sure both religions and religious people use religion to propagate violence, but even non-religious people use violence. I think it is a strong tool for the religious to use, to justify their use of violence, but not a fundamental part of religion, per se.

But I do think religions give a false reality, and are more superstition than fact based. And therefor a hinderance to making real improvements to life on earth. If we had a philosophical base, tied to a real reality, then we could make laws and develop a culture that would hopefully work better in a real world.

what's Dawkin's point? not even he knows!
Posted by: Voicedude on Dec 15, 2006 11:17 AM   
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"6" is the numebr of man, and "3" is the number of God - hence the number "666" is man trying to make himself god.

That is an ultimate truth that has exhisted since the beginning. In the bible, Adam's fall was caused when he ate from the tree of knowledge. Not only did he break the only rule God gave them, but he gained 'knowledge' - self awareness that, althogh good to a point, will always lead to an overinflated ego. 'Man' has spent a lot of his time on earth trying to remake himself as 'god'. This is nothing new, and is discussed in the bible itself. Why? It's human nature.

Science has only fed into that ego-driven desire when we see how much dominion we have over the earth, the creatures on it, and ultimately each other. God gave man that dominion to begin with (over the earth and creatures), it is man's ego that abuses that power with cruelty to animals, rape of our environment, and then the evntual turning on one another. Again, human nature.

Science and religion are like the TV and radio. Not a negative entity unto itself - in fact, one originally intended for positive uses - but one that we would eventually bastardize and corrupt often into it's lowest forms. The major portion of TV and radio is crap - not because it is 'evil' but because we are lazy and set the bar so low. If we don't like the natural state of things, then we'll attempt to reinvent in our own image - one that suits our purposes. And let's face it, our purposes are not always noble. Again, human nature.

The bible tells us that this 'human nature' is our 'sin' (which, btw, was NOT intended to be the guilt-inducing dark cloud over our heads that we've reinterpreted it to be. Those who study the bible know it to be 'human nature'. It's a lot like the US Constitution! It was intended ONE way, but reinterpreted into a semantic dance by man into another. The bible tells us how many times that man has turned away from God in attempts to do 'his own thing' and how this is displeaseing to Him, like a Father who grieves over children who have taken the wrong path. Nothing has changed since then, except that we think we are smarter. Any study of the bible merely as a historical book will support that - we're just plain thick headed, folks! We want what we want and we want it now!

Dawkins obviously saw a similarity in his name to that of Darwin's, but that doesn't make him anywhere near as intelligent. Nor does following his Brittish countrymen's five hundred year old separation from God began by King Henry which continues to this day as church after church in England has been converted into condominiums. England's lack of faith in God (in generalistic terms) also led to those who fled to the Colonies seeking religious freedom.

His Borat style is also deplorable, for it is nowherer near scientific. Most atheists are disillusioned former believers that left their faith for their own private reasons. Those reasons usually have little to due with theology, however. The loudest, atheistic nay-sayers usually show their ignorance of text and theology pretty early, because they don't wish to even study that which they discount. That is wholely UNscientific! Scientifics trly seeking knowledge and enlightenment will exhaust every theory they can think of in order to confirm, dismiss, or postulatize. Many famous intelligent people (C.S. Lewis comes to mind) have set out to disprove the bible only to then embrace it as Truth. Today, there's a growing movement of scientists who believe that scienece only supports Creationism.


(continued below.....)

» human at its dumbest Posted by: monkopotamus
WE need AlterNet do Defend Mullahs, Popes, and Rabbis?
Posted by: dingo on Dec 15, 2006 11:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find Dawkins a bit abrasive and sanctimonious at times, but I salute his challenge to widespread religious conformity. However, whatever Dawkins faults, they pale compared to the pettiness of this silly essay masquerading as evenhandedness. Chaudry denounces:

“Dawkins' fondness for sweeping generalizations reflects his own deep-seated fundamentalism, a virulent form of atheism that mirrors the polarized worldview of the religious extremists it claims to oppose.”

A virulent form of atheism? Dawkins is certainly confrontational but he’s hardly warming up an auto-da-fe for the true believers. Personally, I make a distinction between the question of the existence of a god—a question I cannot answer—and the behavior of organized religion—especially so called Abrahamic religions, which display an unparalleled record for intolerance, bloodthirsty behavior, and totalitarian thinking. Just read their histories.

I recommend Charles Freeman’s book The Closing of the Western Mind, for example.

Considering the frightening resurgence of religious fanaticism around the world, we need scientists willing to stand up and challenge the endless coddling of “true believers” by politicians and the corporate media. (And now the self-proclaimed alternative media rushes to defend religion, too.) Is Dawkins really deserving of this kind of loathing? Considering the horrific state of the world, is Dawkins’ efforts to challenge fundamentalism really one of the major threats that AlterNet needs to confront?

Perhaps Chaudrey is familiar with the apocalyptic vision profiled in the wildly popular --Left Behind Series-- (its tens of millions of adherents are Bush’s real base, and they have a chilling influence on war and peace in the Middle East) or the religious wars that the U.S. has unleashed in Iraq? Does it occur to Chaudrey that the stubborn and violent fanaticism of both Bush and Tony Blair may have something to do with their shared devotion to Christian absolutism? I find the shared worldviews between men such as Ashcroft and Bush, and Mullah Omar and bin Laden quite eerie. The Straussian Neo-cons, while not generally religious themselves, see religion as a golden tool for controlling the uncouth masses.

Not surprisingly, studies show a correlation between religious fundamentalism and intolerance, authoritarianism, and reactionary social views. Studies also show a strong link between religious societies and widespread problems such as murder, rape, divorce, violent crime, etc. Perhaps to the surprise of advocates who think that religion leads to moral behavior, one study demonstrated that secular and less religious societies such as Japan and Sweden have far lower rates of mental illness, crime, violence, and divorce than religious countries such as the United States. Even within the U.S. it is the Bible Belt that suffers from higher rates of crime, poverty, violence, and general social problems compared to less religious areas of the country. Unchallenged, religion almost always chokes off thought and inquiry. Left to the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, we’d still be living in the Dark Ages, threatening and burning men such as Bruno and Galileo.


Dawkins is providing an alternative to the young and open-minded who need to realize that there are serious problems with religion in both its approach to knowledge and the pernicious influence it often wields. He has undoubtedly noted that the contemporary mass media responds well to controversy. Religion is constantly praised for its alleged truths and comforts, despite its singular record of cruelty and imbecility, and Dawkins provides an important public service by offering intelligent criticisms.

what's Dawkin's point? not even he knows! (continued)
Posted by: Voicedude on Dec 15, 2006 11:22 AM   
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(continued from above....)

The real point here is that Dawkins (like the movie Borat, which I unexpectedly hated as mean-spirited) does nothing to prove any points but only takes cheap shots - only unlike Borat, it's not even remotely entertaining. At least he's an equal opportunity offender, but what knowledge, logic, or talent does it take to keep the spotlight on someone and antagonize them until they screw up on camera? Gee.....we're only human! We could point that spotlight any ANYONE and eventually get something that looks negative. So what? Is he attempting to show the world the nature of a hypocrite? Well, in fact, he HAS!

You see, I believe that we all have whatever beliefs we adhere to and that is our right, bith by God and by our Constitution. In reference to the above post which names off hunders of dieties, I believe you have the freedom and right to worship as you wish. I'll support an atheists right to believe in nothing, but they want to take away, discount, and mock those who DO have faith.

THAT is a hypocrite!

As for me, I'm just a man - and not one who has formally studied theology nor can quote a lot scriptures, I'm just a 'believer'. So if I'm a little off on some points.....well, I'm only human!

Peace, good will, and blessings upon ALL of mankind, whether they have faith or not!

Out of touch academic attitudes
Posted by: LastVisibleDog on Dec 15, 2006 11:39 AM   
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Just because your ideas are right doesn't make you right.

I agree with many of the things Dawkins says in theory, but they make little sense when you apply them to the real world. I have found that it matters little what universal view individuals have - I have plenty of friends and relatives of varying spiritual, religious and agnostic beliefs that don't matter one tiny bit ino our relationships. The reason for this is that there is so much more to human interaction than sharing superstitions with each other.

In this respect, dropping faith is only an issue when you apply it to a body that seeks some kind of political or social control - and has the power to do so, especially in regard to people who do not belong to that organized religion. In such cases, you fight the presumption of the organization, rather than the personal beliefs of its members. It's the use of faith that is the danger, not the faith itself - and the same can be said about science.

Furthermore, there is no forcing people to not believe - being an American, I support freedom of speech and thought and that means that people are allowed to believe the most outlandish things they want regardless of what I think about it. I also believe that ridicule and attack seldom change people's beliefs, even if the arguments are logical - more often, such things just make them cling more fiercely.

The other point that many of the new Atheists miss is that organized religion is as much a social construct as one of faith - they are communities. Human beings tend to like communities and will build communities out of many things that interest them. Sometimes that is faith, sometimes lack of (I mean, hell, there are atheist organizations), sometimes things like Lord of the Rings build communitiy. Human beings will do and say and believe what they need to in order to belong to the community they belong to. It's in our wiring. Talking logic about faith is meaningless when measured against the person's entire life, which is what community often amounts to.

In this way, I find many of the new Atheists need to step out of the cloistered life of university campuses and professorial soirees and into reality.

» Many thanks for an insightful post. Posted by: MatthewSavage
» Well thought out Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Out of touch academic attitudes Posted by: LastVisibleDog
arrogance is hard to avoid
Posted by: counterpoint on Dec 15, 2006 12:07 PM   
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I find arrogance - or the perception of arrogance - hard to avoid when you're dealing with a subject matter that has been decided and yet you run into the same refuted claims again and again.
In the case of Dawkins don't forget the Brit factor, that's just what an upperclass/elite Brit sounds like to American ears.
But back to the refutation issue. If I were to make a presentation of the arguments raised against deities it would be one QED after another and another and another. When I'd be finished crossing out every single one of the arguments raised by theologians in the course of centuries, I'd reverse gears and argue the case why gods of such and such popular characteristics cannot exist.
Now tell me, will those in the audience who cling to their lifelong beliefs thank me for liberating them from false reasoning and superstition? Or will they label me an arrogant twit who thinks he is better than them?
So it comes down to tactics and didactics. But a quick look at how people learn will show you that people react differently. In other words, some can be reached, some will be put off.
If the sales figures of The God Delusion is any hint, Dawkins (and Harris) can't be that far off the mark.
Dawkins demonstrates that there religions' positively wrong positions are widely held in undue respect. I'm not sure there is a way that is both gentle and effective to tell those who are wrong that they are wrong. Pulling that tooth is gonna hurt but it needs to be extracted, and the ones that do the most harm first.

Total Crap
Posted by: bernarda on Dec 15, 2006 12:20 PM   
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Jeebus, the writer of this article doesn't have a clue. A closet jeebus freak?

Science is a learning method, not an alternative belief
Posted by: dbursch on Dec 15, 2006 12:20 PM   
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It is both vexing and tiring to see the recurring "science vs. religion" framing of the problem. They are not alternative beliefs vying for loyalty on the same playing field but rather completely antithetical approaches to problem solving: science is a method of learning open to debate whereas religion is about accepting dogma (a rationale to avoid ongoing learning and change of viewpoint). It makes as much sense to say that creationism and evolution are competitive theories -there is no competition. Science is about learing and the moral imperative behind a learner's way of life. Religion is a prescription to abandon individual learning and very often a precursor for fascist politics -of which we should all be adamantly on guard in these times of easy-out and scapegoat thinking.

I see nothing wrong with Dawkins' assertiveness in light of the onslaught of newly politicized religous initiatives. He isn't advocating violent confrontations; he is refreshingly bold in countering the arrogant tide of bandwagon religiosity that seems to be so widely taken for granted as the only respectable way to be. If his voice is a bit strident I can easily sympathize: this rational, learner's point-of-view is so rare and barely heard.

So, if we can equate Science with a prescription for lifelong learning, I think we can achieve a far greater consensus that it is the preferred path in modern human life.

» *ahem* Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: *ahem* Posted by: dbursch
» RE: *ahem* Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: *ahem* Posted by: MAD
» RE: *ahem* Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: *ahem* Posted by: carcinoid112
In defense of Dawkins
Posted by: 12string on Dec 15, 2006 12:42 PM   
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I had the pleasure of reading Professor Dawkins latest book.

The use of the title for the article by Lakshmi Chaudhry in this article makes me question whether bully is better applied to the majority of religious people in this country. Religion is a bully in the White House at present and is running rampant over people's rights.

I believe that every American has the right to believe anything that they want as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others but religion has gotten out of hand. We now are forced to pay taxes for "faith-based" idiocy that some of us don't believe in.

I did not get it that Dawkins claims any invincibility for science. It changes as we know more and Dawkins doesn't claim a rigid ideology surrounding it but acknowledges that science can change where religious beliefs are rooted in an absolutism that is predicated on nothing but subjective ideology. Nowhere does he claim that science is perfect or is used for nothing but constructive purposes.

As to the historical contexts, there is a rich legacy of wars, torture, intimidation, persecution of science and general misinformation based on subjective theological agendas.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the premise that Dawkins sees the world of Good Vrs. Evil in any Manichean sense but does see the problem of superstition gaining control over human reason.

The idea that science is somehow sacred is not shared by reputable scientists. Dawkins never intended to imply this. This is a subjective criticism by Chaudhry.

I must add that quotes that Chaudhry offers by other's critiques of Dawkins does not have any bearing on what Dawkins actually says.

The problem is that there are very few in the main religions that support a woman's right to choose and they often must defy the dictates of their faith to support this.

At no time does he reject the idea of "spiritual" but confines its use to a specific application, that is the appreciation of the natural world through for example Einstein's eyes with wonder and awe. It must be said that "spirituality" can be defined in such vague ways that religious people claim it for their own. I can think of a definition in which "spiritual" runs completely counter to religious faith.

The idea that "you're with us or against us" by comparing Dawkins to Bush is an easy out and begs the question, is religion to be taken seriously as a science? I don't think so.

I agree that historically science will "inform and reflect our changing ideas" but I believe religion has and will continue to misinform.

All this being said, I don't like the use of the term "Bright". I prefer Sam Harris's statement that even the word "atheist" is not necessary. A non-belief doesn't warrant a label.

The idea that contradictory, ambiguous, compromised "reality" of human experience somehow gives religion credibility is absurd. Reason has what has kept our social morality afloat, not some vague artificial superstitious rules from an authoritarian bible with its inconsistent rants. Reason is antithetical to "puritanism" which is predicated on blind belief. Reason is the reason we have survived as a species.

Frank Hamilton

Where's the love?
Posted by: Raj on Dec 15, 2006 12:47 PM   
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Some would believe in God, and think they are right. Others would not believe, and think they are right as well. Could it be that they are both wrong? The one vengful God in the sky theory is far fetched to me. But the other side of the spectrum that there is nothing out there seems rather empty and unlikely (in my opinion).

We are not born knowing about God, unfortunately that idea is presented to all of us at young age, wether we choose to believe it or not. Imagine if no one ever mentioned "God" while you were growing up. At some point in your life, you may ask deeper questions about time and existence, questions science can't answer. You may upon your own self, come to the conclusion that there is some rhyme and reason to creation, that there may be higher power or beings involved.

We as humans see the world through our eyes like a movie real, one frame at a time, 33 frames in a second. Our experience is linear. Now, for a moment, imagine taking this movie real of eternity, cutting up each individual frame, one by one, and rather than seeing them one at a time, 33 per second, stack them all on top of each other like a tower, shine a light at one end and look through the other, and you would be seeing all frames of all time, simultaneously in one moment. Could you even imagine putting a thought like that in your head? Now you understand how a higher power sees things, which brings you even closer to it.

The above analogy is something you will never find in any religious book or hear come from any type of priest. Organized religion is all about control, keeping the masses uneducated, demeaning women, never quesitoning, never pushing the envelope, always fearing "God". Spirituality is all about getting closer to understanding the concept of "God". A big difference.

Love is my religion, the entire planet is my Church, all living creatures are my bretheren to be respected, and unlike those who claim to be "religious", I actually practice what I preach.

If God is as powerful as he's supposed to be, why would he/she even care if you believed in him or not? He's arleady God, he doesn't need you to validate that! Believe what you want, and leave others alone to do the same, as long as love for each other is common to all sides, there will never be a "problem". But looking around the world, being nice to each other seems to be too much to ask...

» RE: Where's the love? Posted by: Landbaron
What is a scientific understanding of religion?
Posted by: johnwilkins1672 on Dec 15, 2006 1:34 PM   
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How do we distinguish between religious and scientific feelings of wonder, doubt, courage and cooperation ?

How would we say an act is an act of tribalism, rather than, say, religion? What is religious resentment compared to, say, just resentment? Is it merely the linguistic utterance "God says"? Is there an identifible content to "God" (say, "my feeling") Dawkins would identify, or is it just an epistemic critique?

How would we distinguish ritual, symbolic, and poetic acts from "religious" acts? How would we banish from the world the tendency to anthropomorphize things, objects and our surroundings?

What is the practical difference between explaining why murder is bad from simply saying "God says it"?

Is there evidence in the natural world, say among chimpanzees, that animals are any less violent without religion? Or can their violence and stupidity be explained by religion as well?

What would Dawkins consider the protestantism that encouraged scientific inquiry in the 19th century? How does a religious feeling of wonder or inquiry inhibit science?

Is there evidence to show that science has made us less violent? Or is this the wrong question?

Dawkins isn't offering much that is new. His bibliography, of course, lacks any of the theologians that are interesting in this day and age (e.g. James Alison, Charles Hartshorne, or William Alston). He didn't even quote Honest to God, by J.A.T. Robinson, the bishop who advocated a spirituality without the supernatural. That is simply irresponsible.

Dawkins time to look behind the facade
Posted by: DianeJ on Dec 15, 2006 1:59 PM   
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As a theist, but an old com ffrom way back, I tend to laugh at the way the left has adopted Dawkins as one of its own. Here we have an upper middleclass establishment male, whom it appears to me anyway, is perfectly content with the established heirarchy, being applauded because he kicks those less fortunate. A truly british public scool boy tradition.
I am not a religious person, but I understand its social importance in an historical context, when the social institutions change, ie heirarchical patriachal, male dominated, the religions will wither,takes time thats all.
When I hear that Dawkins has challenged the religious rituals that underpin the High Table at Oxford University I will be a bit more inclined to take him seriously.
By the way I read somewhere recently that 70% of physicists in America are employed by the military, one can only wonder at the neutrality and general goodness of science eh
DianeJ
PS and to just be totally bitchy he is not even establishment top drawer, he only received a second, and had to have a Chair created for him by a mate :-)

Do Unto Others...
Posted by: bwmathis on Dec 15, 2006 2:41 PM   
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Why must I respect someone's religious beliefs, when they do not respect my own? Without exception, every religious person I have met in my life has shown nothing but contempt for my beliefs. From incredulous stares, to completely dismissing anything I have to say, to attempting to point out the "error" of my ways, to outright condemnation for having a mind of my own.

At best, they think I'm lost and confused.
At worst, they think I'm a servant of some greater being of evil.

» RE: Do Unto Others... Posted by: carcinoid112
I think some explanations are in order . .
Posted by: MAD on Dec 15, 2006 2:54 PM   
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While technically not religious, I am extremely hard pressed to find a completely logical and scientific explanation that accounts for the total universe. Some here have even gone so far as to state that the existence of god has been unequivocally disproved. Anyone care to elaborate on that?

I don't think anyone can put forth an argument that will settle the question of how matter spontaneously formed and then coalesced into the giant superheated mass that exploded with a "big bang". I find it exceedingly difficult to comprehend how the elements just came to be so I pose the question: can anyone satisfactorily explain how something comes from nothing? The universe always existed you say? Ok, I would love to hear someone expound upon that topic.

» not all explanations are equal Posted by: counterpoint
Have you all forgotten Dawkins' background? MONTY PYTHON!
Posted by: counterpoint on Dec 15, 2006 3:06 PM   
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Don't forget that among the most powerful forays in putting religion into its place are Monty Python (and also Douglas Adams, a personal friend of Dawkins' through whom he met his wife. He quotes Adams' electric monk, too).
Yes, the Pythons are the whimsical wing of the anti-religion front, and their brilliant arguments were all I needed at the time. So Dawkins takes the humor out but backs up with relentless argument and evidence (I'm talking more about the book than the video, I saw/read both but now they merge in my memory).
"This is the wattle, its the symbol of our land, you can stick it in a bottle or you can hold it in your hand. AMEN!"

» St. Victor of Python Posted by: counterpoint
I agree
Posted by: heathen_politico on Dec 15, 2006 3:08 PM   
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I agree wholeheartedly. I think the beauty of our democracy is the right to believe in, and worship a shoe if we feel so inclined. I don't believe in any sort of higher power nonsense but I also do not choose to classify myself as some sort of group whether religious or atheist, etc. I think it is just as annoying to have religion shoved down your throat harshly as it is to have atheism shoved down your throat.

When you are forced to believe in something one way or the other and you do not agree with it, your rebellion becomes stronger and suddenly you are bombing innocent people. I remember my cousins who grew up in a catholic household. They were taught since grade school to be soldiers of God and to fight until death for their beliefs. Freaky if you ask me! It is this sort of teachings that cause insane reactions when they feel their belief structure is threatened.

I doubt you can change this sort of belief or teaching by shoving another belief down the religious people’s throat. In fact I think you will make it worse and perhaps cause them to start a movement against your own, causing more conflict in this world.

I think there is too huge a divide between the scientific world and the religious world. Perhaps working on closing the gap would be a much better use of energy. I am not sure how that could be achieved, but I think it may be a good step to take.

» RE: I agree Posted by: heathen_politico
» RE: I agree Posted by: bwmathis
» atheist missionaries Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: I agree Posted by: famouspipeliner
O'Hair was the real bully
Posted by: ZoomerSlick on Dec 15, 2006 3:13 PM   
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It's wildly unfair to describe Dawkins as an atheist bully. As far as I can tell the worst that can be said of him is that he is persistent, and willing to challenge ideas he doesn't accept, but he always seems to be extraordinarily polite when doing so. Like most people, I've been bullied before myself, but never by anyone as nice as Dawkins. If you want a real idea of an atheist bully, dig up some video of Madelyn Murray O'Hair. She was pretty darned mean.

» RE: O'Hair was the real bully Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: O'Hair was the real bully Posted by: Landbaron
Holecoust on Humanity.
Posted by: douglashoyt on Dec 15, 2006 3:16 PM   
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Clear religion has feed the id of humankind; therefore, it has been instrumental in the painful dead and life long misery of billions of innocent humans on earth.

It is way past time that religions be crusted. Some form a gentic engineering must be employed to change us into a mutually cooperative organization.

Nobody knows where the fuck we came from!!!
Posted by: Landbaron on Dec 15, 2006 3:18 PM   
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Church properties should not be tax-exempt, they should pay the same tax as if an atheist organization bought property. Fairs z fair z...

Dawkins for Dummies
Posted by: ekipnrut on Dec 15, 2006 3:25 PM   
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To the extent that Dawkins represents the Corpus of
Euro/American scientific academe,his proclamations of the Platonic pristine virtues of Science read as those of a leper with tuberculosis and emphysema..But 'never been sick a day
in my life'
The ONLY thing American scientific academe is in search of is
FUNDING. The trilateral menage a trois between academe,
government/military and corporate America is there in all its
festering corruption and hypocrisy ad nauseam. Moreover,
as I think about it ,the entire edifice or white ('aryan')
Anglo Saxon supremacy was set forth in the 19th century by
racist academics such as Gobineau....whose "scientific'
theories were given absolute respect by the academic community...and still are in some quarters.
Also Dawkins seems to conflate the ceremonial trappings or
particular concrete interpretative reifications of different
religions with the very distinct issue/concept of whether or
not there exist dimensions of 'being' which so absolutely transcend our ability to grasp that they are for practical intents and purposes ...'God'.
Put another way..those who look around themselves and don't feel a certain completely unnerving awe/angst..don't really
understand the scope of the problem(s). Dawkins' cheap shots at easy targets and straw men religious practitioners don't
establish anything one way or the other.
Furthermore,I would suggest the interested to check out
Peter Woit's (et al) considerations of Popper's falsifiability to
string theory when it comes to deciding just how 'nonreligious'
scientific theories are.
Having kicked God out the door,the burden of compehensive
exegeses is then on Dawkins (sans hand waving) to fill in the blanks and connect the dots...there seem to be many.
As far as Dawkins' Weltanschuang...something about a fellow
named Horatio and 'far more things in heaven and earth'..
comes to mind.

» different kinds of questions?? Posted by: counterpoint
» OK Seriously, then... Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: OK Seriously, then... Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: OK Seriously, then... Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: OK Seriously, then... Posted by: theistfree
» RE: OK Seriously, then... Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: OK Seriously, then... Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: OK Seriously, then... Posted by: theistfree
Choudry missed the scandal: no such film will ever be on US public TV
Posted by: counterpoint on Dec 15, 2006 3:29 PM   
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That's the real scandal: religion can't be discussed (as in criticised) on public television because they are scared shitless of the backlash. They are peeing their pants.
Apparently Choudhry had to watch it in some SF cinema catering to progressives. Reminds me of the day I went to see Noam Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent at the Brattle in Cambridge, Mass. Should have been on TV, but fat chance. Both films, with different means, are eyeopeners, putting things in context and visualizing arguments and conditions.

What an embarrasing and convoluted pile of shit
Posted by: Col. Mortimer Fudge (ret.) on Dec 15, 2006 3:35 PM   
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You want me to accept the "right" to believe in whatever I want, despite evidence? Then, my friend, what shall we say about Holocaust denial? Do you assert the "right" to maintain the beleif that 6 million dead Jews never really died? And if not, where do we draw the line? Is it acceptable to claim that only 5 million Jews died? What about 3 million? Or 200,000? The answer, of course, is that there is no place that a line can be drawn on a continuum of untruth. No line can exist between 6 million Jews and 0 Jews killed that is not arbitrary and harmful. Likewise, no such line can exist between infantile god worship and suicide bombing for Allah. You cannot say "these here unfounded beliefs are swell, but those over there are naughty and mean and you can't have them." Maintaining any superstitions in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is willful savagery, and I for one have no qualms about telling those eager to backpedal into the dark corners of history to fuck right off.

As for your tortured, clumsy attempts to equate religion with science...here's a little game I like to play with the faithful. Look around your house, examine your belongings and then make a list. In one column tally all the things made possible by the work of a scientist, and on the other list all those made possible by the work of a priest. Then look back through history, which you claim to respect, and play the same game.

Fuck the superstitious.

Nice article, thanks Alternet
Posted by: aburritt on Dec 15, 2006 4:01 PM   
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Thanks for posting the excellent article, Alternet.
My favorite part of this pompous ass, whose understanding of either humans or history is about as deep or perceptive as the average middle-schooler, is his attempt to coin the term "Bright" to refer to himself and his followers. Sure, Dick.
(One thing I will give him credit for, however, is that his website posts some rather trenchent and damaging reviews of his latest book, which is certainly admirable of him. It's fully possible, on the other hand, that no criticism even registers on the consciousness of this fanatical "True Believer.")

A scientist's two cents
Posted by: wmoss2 on Dec 15, 2006 4:24 PM   
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Hello there. I am a grad student in biology and chemistry, but I also enjoy thinking about the philosophy of science. I will not focus on the question "is Dr. Dawkins a bully or a fundamentalist in his own right"; that's all pretty subjective isn't it? To the religious he is, to the atheist he is not. What really bothered me about the article was the final section, which made the claim that science and religion are both similar, in that they are at the mercy of historical forces. I disagree strongly here.

While yes, science and religion are human ventures and are certainly influenced by history; the two institutions respond to the flow of history in very different ways. Science improves with the addition of data (over time). Theories evolve and are improved (or discarded!) to conform to the latest data; data which reflects nature (as observed from the best methods available to us). It is a correcting process. Science always seeks to improve itself and begins with the idea that our knowledge is imperfect and imprecise. Our assumption is that what we are proposing may be wrong, and we test our proposals against what actually is observable. We have a measure of how good we are doing and that measure is nature herself.

In contrast, religion generally begins with the idea that perfect knowledge has been revealed to us (through a book, spirit, guru, prophet, etc.). It begins with perfection and manipulates or ignores new data to fit its own claims of perfection. There is also no measure of how well a religious belief fits reality. How can we tell if a religious belief is getting better over time? There is no yard stick to compare it to. Jews no longer make animal sacrifices, is this good...who knows (vegetarians be silent :) )?

There is no way to correct or improve religion. One cannot identify errors. It all comes down to a popularity contest, a shouting match or a bloodbath, to determine which religious beliefs carry on into the future. The scientific beliefs that carry on into the future are the ones that are most in line with the best information available to us. This is the fundamental difference between the two systems. They are in no way equivalent.

» RE: A scientist's two cents Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: A scientist's two cents Posted by: wmoss2
» Not 'up' on religion?? Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: Not 'up' on / two cents... Posted by: carcinoid112
Nothing "mysterious" about science
Posted by: SteveB on Dec 15, 2006 5:15 PM   
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From the article:
"If we do not quite understand how the universe was created or the human brain works -- or the competing, contradictory claims about the virtues of, say, table salt -- all we need to do is wait and keep faith in the scientific method, which will reveal all in good time. The ways of Science are no less sacred or mysterious than that of God"

Where's the "mystery" in science? Anyone who is interested, and has an understanding of basic statistics can review the current scientific literature on the health effects of table salt and decide for themselves what to believe. Sure, most people don't have the time or training to do this, and so take scientific claims on faith - but you can't blame science for that.

And scientists, unlike religionists, are quite open about all the things they don't know. Good scientists actually celebrate uncertainty and data which calls their theories into question - because it tells them that new, exciting scientific discoveries must be nearby. When a particle physicist makes an experimental observation that calls into question prevailing theories, her first thought is most likely "potential Nobel Prize!", not "how can I sweep this under the rug?"

On both accounts it takes faith
Posted by: la_cara1106 on Dec 15, 2006 5:43 PM   
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I feel that you cannot completely discount religion as un-founded based soley on the atrocities. There have been too many things done by power abusing religious leaders. It begs the question then, if you can measure the truthfullness by quantifying abuses of power, then atheism --the driving force behind Maoist and Stalinist Communisim-- certainly is not the straight truth. How many died at the hands of their atheistic red armies and in their prisons?
The problem is not religion it is intolerance and divisivness. Fundamental-militant atheisim is no different that fundamental-militant religionism.

'Atheistic Theology,' 'Jumbo Shrimp,' etc.
Posted by: travis_taylor on Dec 15, 2006 6:00 PM   
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The author's referring to Dawkins' commitment to the ideals of intellectual integrity and empirical knowledge over primitive superstition as 'atheist theology' further proves the limitations in thought of the religious - they can't see the universe as anything other than a cuddly construct which judges in their favor, and they can't see anything that thinks otherwise as anything other than another form of faith. I call bunk on this article - maybe if religious extremists hadn't done so poorly by the world for the past several thousand years, we wouldn't need people as outspoken and gusty as Dawkins.

An Athiest Bullies The Faithful misses the point
Posted by: Jimsabis on Dec 15, 2006 6:19 PM   
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I just read your article on Richard Dawkins titled “An Athiest Bullies the Faithful. This article may well be the least balanced and misinformed article I’ve ever read on Alternet. It demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of what Richard Dawkins and atheism actually represent.

In spite of frequent pronouncements to the contrary, even by some of the respondants here, there is no proof of any kind that god exists, period. If anyone was able to produce any kind of hard, verifiable evidence to the existence of such a being, it would shake the very foundations of all human societies. As a rationalist, I tend to fall back on probabilities in this matter, as it is the only reliable tool available, with the definitions of god as set by any human doctrinal religion being in the highly unlikely category. This position is strongly backed by research into the history of religions, ancient and modern, particularly Christianity and Islam, which illustrates how the doctrinal religions are manipulated by the clerical class to achieve political ends and maintain control over their ‘flock’.

I have read the works of Dawkins, Harris, Boyer, and others. I am in the midst of Wilson's “Darwin's Cathedral” and have also read the Bible, parts of the Qur’an and the histories of the three major doctrinal religions. The work I have found most pertinent to date is Pascal Boyer's “Religion Explained”. This book, coupled with Dawkin's “The Selfish Gene” encompass how the human mind works and why we tend to believe the things we do. Evolution begat religion as it merely provided human societies with a competitive advantage.

This effectiveness of this working relationship is in the process of changing, and for the worse. With the advent of rational thought and the rapid progress we have since made, the restrictive and limiting affects of religion within societies are becoming increasingly evident, even to the point of being detrimental to our future as a society and possibly as a species.

Whenever societies with differing social structures, whether the differences were religious or political or both, have come into contact, friction has invariably resulted. This friction often reveals itself in the form of violence and warfare. Political friction is bad enough and has accounted for much monstrous behavior on the part of mankind in the course of our history. Add the cohesive nature and deep seated belief systems, and related behaviors, inherent in fundamentalist doctrinal religions to the mix and the threat of extreme violence in these conflicts ratchets up to unimaginable levels.

It is true that religious doctrine has been the most common vehicle for transmitting moral codes within the most societies, but this is simply a convenient by-product of the way religion integrated into those societies. Moral behavior has its roots elsewhere in our physical minds as modern psychology is discovering. Religious persons often accuse atheists of being amoral. This is a terrible and unfounded slur, and one that atheists are increasingly vocal about protesting.

Science does not argue against god. Science simply explains mechanisms, causes and effects. Fundamentalists are terrified of science, because it opens the possibility that there is no god by offering explanations for the world around us that do not require a god. Fundamentalists view this as a direct threat and react by moving to crush free thought and inquiry wherever it might be found. How sad a promotion of the grossest ignorance. Here-in is the true fault in doctrinal religions of all kinds. Atheists such as Richard Dawkins may seem overly strident at times, but they provide a useful function by keeping the topic out in front of us as a reminder that it is time to move to the next level of human awareness. This means facing the world as it really is and taking responsibility for what we do with it.

Pretty much on the mark
Posted by: TRC on Dec 15, 2006 6:42 PM   
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Dawkins says - in a sometimes rather unsweetened way - the way it is, I think. Humanity must move beyond this "faith" dogma if it is to see the alarming problems we have created in our world (from environmental catastrophy to genecide to acquiesence to undeserverved authority).
It is amazing how sensitive religious people are when challenged with rationale. Yet, they will tell you (if you can stand to talk with them long enough on the subject) how you are to suffer eternal damnation for your free mind. Many people are told this when they are children repeatedly before they are old enough to distinquish reality from fantasy. Most never quite get over the fear and are handicapped for life - most will infect their children to satisfy their master.
The more left-wing believers tend to be the most rational and accepting of challenges and other possibilites. These people also are usually the ones who truely seem to care for others and the least likely to support war and dogma.

» RE: Pretty much on the mark Posted by: Doubtom
god and george bush
Posted by: mobile68 on Dec 15, 2006 9:00 PM   
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Have anyone ever noticed how g.b. always refer to god & and not jesus as telling him what to do?

From what I have read in the bible, god is kinda of a mean spirited "being". Maybe thats why so many repugs always like to start wars.
It's so funny how the repugs always tout morality and family values but seem to be the most functional disfunctionals.
If they have such a strong faith in their god, then why do they need such a huge military prescence around the world like they are god?
Why is there such a big influx of new meds on the market that is being pushed by doctors working in mostly faith based hospitals that the avg. american can not afford, yet our tax dollars are going to faith based inititatives and to the military?
I wonder who those god fearing people who voted for g.w.(esp. in ohio) are going to blame for losing their jobs that their god fearing president shipped overseas? Blame their god? Well, they'll have their nra-approved guns to hunt for food and clothing.

Religion is ok for those that need the crutch but it is too contridictory for me.

» RE: god and george bush Posted by: Landbaron
Just Plain Lazy
Posted by: rbentley on Dec 16, 2006 8:16 AM   
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-- all we need to do is wait and keep faith in the scientific method, which will reveal all in good time. The ways of Science are no less sacred or mysterious than that of God.

"All things come to he who waits, if he hustles while he waits."
--Thomas Edison

Nice try at an evenhanded treatment. But you are wrong. There is nothing passive or mysterious about the scientific method. Faith as an alternative to knowledge is, in this sense simple laziness. For instance, an unwillingness or inability to read Darwin as the root of creationism. While I would prefer to not deal in over simplification, it really just seems to boil down to a preference for delivered truth on the part of the faithful, rather than figuring stuff out for ourselves.

Death to Infidels Via Video Games by William Fisher
Posted by: rwa on Dec 16, 2006 12:01 PM   
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“This is the first time any Christian religious instructional video has recommended killing all non-Christians who refuse to convert to Christianity. It is unprecedented and dangerous.”

This was the view expressed yesterday by Rev. Timothy Simpson, president of the Jacksonville, Florida-based progressive advocacy group The Christian Alliance for Progress, in describing a new video game titled "Left Behind: Eternal Forces."

The game, which is packaged with a book explaining its philosophy, is currently being sold by Wal-Mart, America’s largest retailer. The chain has thus far refused demands that it remove it from its shelves, indicating it would continue selling the game online and in selected stores where it felt there was demand.

Nearly 25,000 members of the Campaign to Defend the Constitution, one of the groups critical of the video game, have submitted letters to Wal-Mart, asking the store to stop selling religious violence for Christmas.

"Part of the object is to kill or convert the opposing forces," Simpson said. This is "antithetical to the Gospel of Jesus Christ," he said, adding that he was dismayed by the concept in "Eternal Forces" of using prayer to restore a player's "spirit points" after killing the enemy." In the game, combatants on one side pause for prayer, intoning, "Praise the Lord." A player can lose points for "unnecessary killing" but regain them through prayer.

But Simpson counters, "The idea that you could pray, and the deleterious effects of one's foul deeds would simply be wiped away, is a horrible thing to be teaching Christian young people here at Christmas time."

Troy Lyndon, CEO of Left Behind Games Inc., which is promoting the new video, has defended the game as "inspirational entertainment" and said its critics were exaggerating. The game is based on the popular "Left Behind" novels, a Bible-based end-of-the-world-saga that has sold more than 63 million copies.

Left Behind Games says the game actually is pacifist because players lose "spirit points" every time they gun down nonbelievers rather than convert them. They can earn spirit points again by having their character pray.

"You are fighting a defensive battle in the game. You are a sort of a freedom fighter."

"Our game includes violence, but excludes blood, decapitation, killing of police officers," the company says on its Web site.

Another participant in the critics' news conference, author Frederick Clarkson, argued that "Eternal Forces" was less violent than many other video games, but was more troubling in some ways.

"It becomes a tool of religious instruction," he said. "The message is . . . there will be religious warfare, and you will target your fellow Americans, people from other faiths, people who you consider to be sinners."

Clarkson criticized the Rev. James Dobson’s powerful Colorado-based Christian ministry, Focus on the Family (FOF), for publishing a positive review of "Eternal Forces" on one of its websites. Dobson’s group is close to the White House and is considered highly influential in shaping the Bush Administration’s conservative agenda.

"Eternal Forces is the kind of game that Mom and Dad can actually play with Junior and use to raise some interesting questions along the way," wrote the FOF reviewer, Bob Hoose.

Simpson’s group has joined with other progressive Christian organizations to protest the video game. These include the CrossWalk America, the Beatitudes Society, The Center for Progressive Christianity, and the Campaign to Defend the Constitution.

Irresponsible
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Dec 16, 2006 1:29 PM   
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This is easily one of the most irresponsible essays I've read on Alternet.

There are several major competing religions in the world. Two of those major competitors have access to weapons of mass destruction with which to back up medieval and or even more ancient claims of who's all powerful. Yet neither of those two major religions can claim a shred of evidence of the validity of their claims.

Those major religions are Islam and Christianity. The major players are the US and someone in the Middle East.

It is incumbent on those who claim things like flying horses, virgins in Paradise, resurrected gods, triune gods, etc. that they PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt their mythological claims. Does this happen? NO.

In addition, have you ever known of a civilization in the history of humanity that went to war over a law of physics? No. Why? Because that is where you find universal truth. Universal truth is true for anyone anywhere. Universal truth is not garnered by poring over ancient altered texts. It is not culled from the minds of scholars who have voted on what is right or wrong. It is gathered by evidence using methods that stand the test of time.

Without a grounding in knowledge, observation and mindfulness, no one can ever hope to know what is really going on in the world. Those who seek and ONLY find solace about the world in the closed system known as religious thought are doomed to failure and to produce failed results when encountering other cultures who don't adhere to said claims.

Proof is all you need to know anything. As soon as someone produces a Pegasus-like creature that might have taken Mohammad up to Paradise, or proved that a triune god who is god, but not god, resurrected himself (or not), for your sins and you will follow him to Heaven, then I might consider something like that to be worthy of considering.

Until that time, it is all MYTHOLOGY and is a continuation of POORLY thought out memes that have no business being part of modern civilizations.

Bad debater
Posted by: abx on Dec 16, 2006 3:19 PM   
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There are a LOT of comments here, so forgive me if this has already been said.

The only problem I have with Dawkins is that he lacks real debate skills. He ends up letting the other parties control the conversation, in which he ends up reacting on their terms. Since they get to set the stage, they rope him into the same kind of illogical and fanatic approach that they are used to, making him look the same. I'm certain that if Dawkins had better debating skills so that he could control the conversation without him getting frustrated and defensive, that these kinds of criticisms would not exist. When it comes down to it, he has no less right to question them than they do to preach to the unwitting. I find that the religious all too often will proclaim themselves above all others, more forgiving and loving, but then assert that you must compromise in a way that allows them to do exactly what they want to do, without any compromise on their part. To criticize Dawkins for trying to inject some reason into the situation in a non-inflamatory way is just silly. If they were as comfortable with their beliefs as they'd like you to believe, these discussions would be a lot more calm and interesting and, again, this article wouldn't exist. I can't really say that I'm really a full athiest, but I fully support Dawkins in his persuits, I just think he needs to learn some debate skills, assertiveness, and patience so he can stop ending up on the defensive.

Matt
Posted by: mbates on Dec 16, 2006 3:36 PM   
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I'm glad Mr. Dawkins has weighed in on this matter so forthrightly. This debate needs to be joined and vigorously.
Natural and supernatural explanations of phenomenon are simply irreconcilable, as are faith and science. They are utterly different systems of thought, based on contradictory premises. Holding back from saying so in order to spare people's feelings is the truly disrespectful thing to do.
Concerning the incompatability of faith and science, I can hear the religous folks already, countering that scientists, of necessity, make intuitive leaps and conjectures. And that is true. But scientific conjecture is utterly different than the "faith" demanded by religion.
Humankind is in trouble the second we agree to set aside systematic study of the world in favor of received wisdom, or doctrine, or scripture or the pronouncements of authority figures, secular or spiritual. Why would anyone who respects us (or who has nothing to hide) ask us to take anything on faith in the first place? People have been conned by that sucker's game for tens of thousands of years. Who needs it?

» RE: Matt Posted by: ekipnrut
Sex is the root of all evil?
Posted by: Landbaron on Dec 16, 2006 3:38 PM   
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Rockerfellar said; "If it wasn't for women all the money in the world wouldn't mean a thing." The religions have problems with sex out of wedlock and women raising their shirts (porn).

it is really the question of tolerance vs. intolerance
Posted by: cold2touch on Dec 16, 2006 8:39 PM   
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And because of that, Dawkins and Dobson are Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum, i.e., in the same camp.
A tolerant person recognizes that he/she does not and likely never will possess all the answers and therefore does not disparage the unknown or unknowable.
He is a "realist" of rather crude, rule-of-the-thumb variety, a plumber holding forth on architecture.
Why did he not consult with some of his coleagues, such as theoretical physicist Roger Penrose, whose work leaves plenty of doubt regarding The Question?

religion only exists because people who believe in religion exist.
Posted by: frenchcanadienne on Dec 17, 2006 12:45 AM   
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We're all atheists when it comes to belief in Thor or Zeus. How is Jehovah any different? Judeo-christian religion only exists because there are people [usually indoctrinated from early childhood] who believe that it exists. With some luck, Jehovah will be as irrelevant as Zeus in a couple of hundred years. That is if we can survive a couple of hundred more years of this irrational religious paradigm.

Atheism can be as dogmatic as any religion
Posted by: cmysticism on Dec 17, 2006 12:50 AM   
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I think a lot of the religion-hating liberals who respond to this article prove that atheists can be as dogmatically extreme as anyone who believes in a religion. As the article points out, what about the moderately religious who believe in evolution, who believe that science is generally a good thing in the right hands, and that abortion isn't evil but represents the right of a woman to control what goes on in her own body?

What about those of us who think that religious views oftentimes skirt on subjects that science has yet to consider or prove? For instance, those who debunk the existence of god or gods seem to dogmatically insist that the universe itself cannot be a conscious entity. How does science know this for a fact? And why do many science fanatics insist that science must avoid looking for answers to this very important question? Why do the science extremists insist that we never seek out evidence that the human consciousness may be a form of energy that survives the death of the physical body? I think religion ponders a lot of questions that science is afraid to pursue for political reasons, or for fear that such discoveries would somehow validate religion and "disprove" science. This is far from the truth. Religion and science need not war with each other.

As a practicing Wiccan, I believe that what we call "magick" works, but I also believe, as do most Wiccans, that the scientific method could readily explain *how* it works if only science was allowed to study such phenomena. I think that science and religion need not exist in an adversarial role in society.

Instead, I believe that fundamentalism in either religion *or* science leads to dogmatic thinking, bullying of those with differing beliefs, and an absolute insistance that the universe works in a certain way without having to seek evidence or proof.

And I *do not* think that science always accomplishes truth, evidence, and objectivity, as some of the extremists in this thread purport. When I see science extremists enforcing the idea that science must *never* consider the idea of consciousness surviving physical death or the possiblity of the human psyche existing in an energy state, this makes it clear that science can let politics or (yes!) dogmatic adherence to orthodoxy prevent it from pondering certain questions about how the universe works.

» correction Posted by: bg41
Thank god for Dawkins
Posted by: c.dric on Dec 17, 2006 6:29 AM   
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We would replace every instances of 'religion' in Dawkins' speech by capitalism or communism and he would be considered as a moderate. politics as usual ...
But when he dares to question people's faith in zeus or the little teapot, he's a fundamentalist ...

Religious ideas don't deserve any more respect than political ones.

The fact that so many people can't spot this double-standard is proof we need more people like Dawkins and less of those "I'm an atheist but ..." apologists.

Discrimination towards Atheist still exist
Posted by: theistfree on Dec 17, 2006 11:46 AM   
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Last year a Muslim wanted to use the Koran when swearing in at a court trial. North Carolina said no and the ACLU got involved. Short story is Muslims can now swear on the Koran.

But I think the ACLU missed the point, The fact that any religious symbol was used in a modern court of law is ridiculous. An older NC law allowed Quakers, Moravians, Mennonites and Dunkards to make an affirmation instead of an oath, and in 1985, the legislature amended the relevant statute so that the affirmation option is no longer limited to Quakers, Moravians, Mennonites and Dunkards. Now anyone who objects to the statutory oath on the religious book of your choice can make an affirmation instead of an oath.

Now imagine you are an atheist accused of a serious crime in NC and you have to get in front of a jury and basically OUT yourself as an atheist. I personally would not trust a group of for the most part religious people to make a non prejudicial decision under that circumstance. I would have to put my hand on the bible and lie about the "so help me god".

No the right thing to do is get ALL religion out of the courts, The proper swearing in should be "I swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" That's all.

Thats just fair.

» Pledge of Allegiance Posted by: counterpoint
Chaudhry's Flawed Understanding of Dawkins
Posted by: jane funk on Dec 17, 2006 6:34 PM   
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In the middle this piece Chaudhry unearths her profound misunderstanding of the engaged atheist movement of which Dawkins is one representative:
“"As long as we accept the principle that religious faith must be respected simply because it is religious faith, it is hard to withhold respect from the faith of Osama bin Laden and the suicide bombers," he [Dawkins] writes in The God Delusion, in an eerie echo of President Bush's post-9/11 point of view: "You're either with us or against us." “

The Dawkins view in this passage is EXACTLY OPPOSITE the Bush post-9/11 view. Bush is saying that it is unacceptable to question anything we (nation, church, ruling elite) do, and if you so choose you are our mortal enemy. Bush in both word and deed demands unquestioning obedience to his understanding of the world, that is, that his virtue (and by association, America’s), be taken on faith. By doing this, Bush is mapping the special deference demanded by “respect for religion” onto the political, diplomatic, and economic realms, an aspect of his behavior, btw, that I think is closely related to his particularly noxious brand of faith. Dawkins on the other hand is saying that in a world of nuclear weapons, global climate change, six billion people, and dwindling natural resources, it is irresponsible, nay, immoral for anyone to offer, a priori, deference to ANY belief system, including religions. That Chaudhry could possibly conflate these two opposite world views shows either a deep and probably willful misunderstanding of Dawkins or, much more likely, a profound bias toward religion. The question Dawkins poses for the Chaudhrys and that makes them so uncomfortable: why, in God’s name (pardon), must the world take this one sphere of human activity, faith, that has real consequences for the world, and apply to it a deference that allows it to operate in a way that, the wishes of all stripes of tyrants notwithstanding, should not be applied to other human affairs.

What Dawkins is displaying, what is so necessary in what he does and that makes so many uncomfortable, is to show us what it might look like if religious faith did NOT have this special dispensation of deference, what it would look like if we began to accept that religion should be treated in a way consistent with other human realms of understanding. Ask yourself this: how come Alternet never published an article by someone deeply offended by “Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room”, another documentary that took a confrontational approach to a deeply held belief system (that unfettered capitalism is the perfect mechanism for allocation of resources)? My goodness, that documentary was just packed to the gills with impertinent disrespect for poor Jeffrey Skillings’ faith.

Finally, as a practicing scientist, here is an insight into Dawkins approach that many perhaps may not recognize – the aggressiveness with which he approaches the claims of religious faith, is just that practiced by many of the best scientists. I have been at scientific meetings where controversial ideas are presented and discussed and, believe me, the gloves come off. The types of confrontations Dawkins shows with the faithful in his documentary are MILD compared to some of those I have witnessed in the context of scientific disagreement. BUT, it is recognized in the practice of science that the approach displayed by Dawkins - aggressive questioning, deep skepticism, absence of deference, demands for evidence, etc. – are absolutely indispensable components of a method that moves understanding forward. That is, Dawkins is just mapping methods of critical thinking onto religion in a way that most have been unwilling to accept in the past, in a way that unfortunately leaves many uneasy, and in a world where religious faith has real consequences it is high time for that. It is high time.

jo5ef
Posted by: jo5ef.k on Dec 18, 2006 3:18 AM   
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wow you religious guys get really upset when someone questions your faith don't you? Sounds like Dwkins really hit a nerve.

Context,context and... context
Posted by: Mr. Heathen on Dec 18, 2006 3:44 AM   
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I agree with Dawkins more than his detractors.
Science tells us too much drink is bad for us. A little might be good. And tho, I rarely drink, I also would hate to see old vintage casks thrown out and replaced with sterile beakers half full of fresh water from a chemically treated source. But, I am concerned about mixing the two. And if the zealots continue to pressure people to choose one... I'm going with the latter.

Is your god Falsafiable?
Posted by: theistfree on Dec 18, 2006 8:05 AM   
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Religion wants science to take its views seriously but don't want to follow the rules of science that has worked so well.

The hardest science rule to understand is that to test anything it must be Falsafiable.

What evidence would it take to prove your beliefs in gods or the supernatural wrong? It's easy to play an intellectual mind game and create from thin air an entity who does not follow the laws of physics. When you point out the illogic of the god concepts the religious just drop back to the old "god can't be measured or understood by us mere humans"

Well! Thats just great!... You have this THING that can't be seen, can't be felt, can't be weighed, measured, and has no effect on me or the world around me. Sound to me like it has ALL the properties of something that does not exist. I can pull nonexistent shit out of my ass all day, it does not mean you have to look at it or even consider looking at it. And if I keep sticking this shit in your face then I should not get upset if you point out I ain’t got shit.

So exactly how do I test your god thing? It's easy to criticize science for being closed minded. Are you open-minded enough to consider whether your ideas might be wrong?

What Would Jesus Do???
Posted by: MinrProfit on Dec 18, 2006 8:43 AM   
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I myself think that if most religionists would simply turn the phrase around, so the the question becomes, "Would you do/say it to Jesus?? That there would be far fewer attrocities committed in the name of God/religion, at least I'd like to think so, but then again, I just remembered what happened to him, committed upon him bt the same people that hailed him into the city, or am I wrong???

A hard road to follow
Posted by: truthteller on Dec 18, 2006 12:10 PM   
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I finished reading "The God Dilusion" a few days ago. I usually read books during breaks at work. I make no effort to hide what I'm reading from co-workers, and my reading list is decidedly progressive/left. What I find interesting is that almost universally the first reaction I got to the book from co-workers when I explained briefly to them the content was, "I'm not descended from no (sic) monkey!" (I work in an industrial, union environment, one of the few front-line employees with any college, let alone a liberal arts [Poli-Sci] degree.) Well, indeed we all are, according to the Human Genome project, sharing 98.5% of our DNA with Chimps.

I was also wrongly accused of being the person who objected to there being a small Christmas tree in a supervisor's office. More of a snark attack on my atheism than anything serious. I make no bones about my beliefs (or lack thereof), but I don't make unsolicited attacks on other people's faith or expressions of it. The most overt thing I do is say ""Gesundheit" instead of "Bless You", when someone sneezes. It's amazing what a giveaway this minor thing is to those of great faith as to my secularism.

I think that a survey I quoted by Dawkins is very true - that being an atheist in America is the single biggest disqualifier for public office in the minds of the vast majority of the public - more even than having a past criminal background.

It's really hard to be a sincere atheist in this country, wanting nothing more than to be left alone in my views. I've come to know that whenever someone of strong faith says they want to have an "open discussion" of religion, what they really mean is, "Let me convert you to my way of believing". I understand the angst that Dawkins and the other "Brights" feel, and the urge to just have at it with the ignorance of these "true believers". Stridency is usually not very attractive, but after seeing Dawkins on C-SPAN's "Book TV" going toe-to-toe with students and faculty from Jerry Falwell's Liberty "University" (viewable on YouTube and other places), at an appearance in Lynchburg, VA (The belly of the beast, so to speak) I have to say "Right-on!" to his efforts to make the case for reason and science in the face of such studied 'Know-Nothingism'.

Religious Zealots
Posted by: boing007 on Dec 18, 2006 12:23 PM   
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They are pacifists if they succeed in converting non-believers. So what do we call them if they only succeed in gunning them down instead? Heroes for Christ? What a swell guy.

Troy Lyndon, CEO of Left Behind Games Inc., which is promoting the new video, has defended the game as "inspirational entertainment" and said its critics were exaggerating. The game is based on the popular "Left Behind" novels, a Bible-based end-of-the-world-saga that has sold more than 63 million copies.

Left Behind Games says the game actually is pacifist because players lose "spirit points" every time they gun down nonbelievers rather than convert them. They can earn spirit points again by having their character pray.

» RE: eligious Zealots Posted by: MrAllen
Bizby
Posted by: Bizby on Dec 18, 2006 12:29 PM   
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Chaudhry was doing a pretty good job until he made this errant statement:

"The ways of Science are no less sacred or mysterious than that of God."

That is not Dawkins' message or belief. The fact that science may someday explain phenomena that we do yet understand does not make science mysterious or sacred. It simply acknowledges that human knowledge is limited but growing all the time.

Chaudhry is giving away his in ability to see that science is not a religion-like antithesis to religion. It is simply science--an empirical process available to fallible humans with limited knowledge.

With a faith-based framework for analysis, Chaudhry cannot help but offer a poor review. Too bad.

If Churches would step up to the plate and pay their share of taxes
Posted by: symcokid on Dec 18, 2006 6:52 PM   
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we could erase the National Debt in no time and then there would truly be a separation between the Church and the State. Perhaps the Church would be less prone to get involved in Politics too!

Shame on Alternet
Posted by: Sanglug on Dec 18, 2006 7:52 PM   
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Many good points in defense of Dawkins' views have already been made. I just want to weigh in as yet another person incredibly disappointed with Alternet and Lakshmi for running this thin, baseless "review." Shame on you.

Searching for Truth
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Dec 19, 2006 10:08 AM   
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No one would find fault with anyone who claimed disbelief in Zeus or Athena. We now recognize those old gods as myths that attempt to explain the unexplainable. If someone did believe in them, that person would undoubtedly be subject to ridicule. Why does anyone think that belief in a virgin conception, the rebirth of a man and his ascention to heaven (wherever that might be), fitting two animals of every species into a boat the size of a football field, and the hand of god guiding the writers of the Bible are any less ridiculous?

As the famous Don Rumfeld said, there are known knowns, there are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns. We can know some things, such as the general nature of light or sound. We know that we don't know (for example) exactly how large or infinitely small things really can be. But we cannot know the nature of creation or what happens after we die. There is such an infinite variety of possibilities, we can't even imagine all of them. Perhaps because the vastness of human lack of knowledge is so daunting to most people, there has always been a need to place limitations on it by deciding, rather arbitrarily really, on the nature of existence and a higher power.

Dawkins may be strident, but he has likely been subjected to much greater disrespect for his lack of belief than that which the True Believers so often claim to be for their faith. I am a non-Christian in a very Christian area (West-by-god-Virginia) and have encountered many situtations in which my agnosticism has been rather negatively questioned. I had a long, non-antagonistic discussion at Thanksgiving with a Christian relative over the notion that all non-Christians will wind up in Hell. He admitted that to be consistent in his faith, he did have to believe that this is the case. Now THAT would be offensive if a person took it personally. Fortunately, I understand that what other people think or believe is a reflection on them, not on me.

I recently read a quote on a post that I thought summed it up: "Follow those who seek the truth. Flee those who have found it." Proponents of science SEEK the truth. When new evidence indicates that a previous understanding was flawed, more research is instigated and ideas are updated. Religous proponents believe they have FOUND the truth. (If not every single detail, they believe they have found the true path to whatever heaven they desire). If evidence pops up to indicate that the beliefs are wrong, justifications are made, denials kick in, and those who are responsible for the challenges are condemned for heresy. Therein lies the difference. (As an example, I asked a Christian how she thought all the animals of the earth fit into the ark and how Noah got to Australia to pick up the kangaroos. She said god can do anything. So I wondered why god didn't just zap all the bad people and let the good people and animals live. No answer to that.)

Contrary to Chaudhry's article, science is a means to an end, a search for knowledge and understanding of the nature of the physical world, the psychological motivations of human beings, and a way to better our current existence. Religion is an end in itself, a ready explanation of how we got here, the way things are, what is going to happen when we die, and how to ensure that the believer gets to the right place.

It is true that many religious believers have done wonderful things, and perhaps Dawkins does ignore this too much. However, historically more harm than good has been done in the name of religion, more bigotry and hatred have been spawned than love and peace, and more divisiveness has been encouraged than inclusiveness. If Christianity preached that it doesn't matter what you believe and God loves everyone unconditionally, we agnostics (and Atheists) might not be so aggressive in our rejection.

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