COMMENTS: 110
Oliver Stone Rewrites 9/11
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Spoken by Port Authority police Sergeant John McLoughlin (Nicholas Cage) as the World Trade Center buckles above him, these words ring truer than most in Paramount Pictures' new film "World Trade Center," directed by Oliver Stone.
Not only does this line of dialogue aptly describe the movie -- which opens today -- but it also illustrates a worldview embraced by the film. No wonder Paramount launched a massive marketing campaign that targets two specific groups often light on thought and heavy on action: teenage boys and the Christian Right.
A celebration of authority, God, and president Bush, "World Trade Center" doesn't feel like an Oliver Stone movie. If conservatives were worried that Stone, the director of anti-establishment touchstones "Platoon," "Born on the Fourth of July," and "JFK," would turn this 9/11 movie into a platform for personal politics, he has proved them resoundingly wrong. Instead, Stone delivers the Bush base a jingoistic, All-American all-you-can-eat buffet on a silver platter.
"World Trade Center" opens with the soon-to-be heroes of a Port Authority police precinct heading into work from points across New Jersey and New York. It's an ethnic cross-section of New Yorkers, including sergeant McLoughlin (Cage), Will Jimeno (Michael Pena), Antonio Rodriguez (Armendo Riesco) and Dominick Pezzulo (Jay Hernandez).
But when Jimeno starts mouthing the words to Brooks and Dunn's country and western song "Only in America" -- heard on the radio, and, of course, the soundtrack -- the film betrays its true setting. This isn't New York (come on, how many Latino cops sing along with lily-white patriotic ballads?). This is an imaginary Big Apple -- complete with happy-go-lucky black transsexual prostitutes and amiable hippie homeless guys -- made for those who've never visited the city and want to claim it as their own 9/11 memory.
The film predictably sets up the characters alongside the first rumblings of the catastrophe and the confusion on the ground: Were there two planes, or just one? A small aircraft, or a larger jet? Possibly to avoid depicting the impact for the umpteenth time, Stone never shows the planes hitting the towers; we only see a brief glimpse of a jet's shadow crossing a building. (This image also includes a billboard from Paramount's 2001 Ben Stiller comedy "Zoolander." Is this historical accuracy or product placement?)
No matter. When McLoughlin and his team eventually enter the World Trade Center concourse as the buildings collapse, the film takes its most harrowing turn. Fade to black: Buried beneath mounds of gnarled metal, concrete slabs, and twisted pipes, the Port Authority officers are either trapped, dead, or dying. These horrible moments are also the film's most effective and visceral; the men endure excruciating pain; the surroundings are oppressive, claustrophobic and thrilling. But just in case the audience gets too uncomfortable, Stone cuts away to their wholesome American families waiting tearfully for word of their husbands, fathers and sons. As grieving wives and mothers, actors Maria Bello and Maggie Gyllenhaal do an admirable job of suffering in slow motion. Some in the audience will have trouble fighting back the soapy movie-of-the-week tears.
Stone also introduces the film's most polemical character: Dave Karnes, the ex-marine who eventually discovered the two survivors amid the rubble. We first see Karnes glued to a television screen, watching a worshipful insert of President Bush ("the resolve for our great nation is being tested, but make no mistake," he says, "we will show the world we will pass the test"). Driven by religious calling and military adventurism, Karnes leaves his office, goes to church, dons his marine gear and heads to the World Trade Center, where he subsequently sneaks past the barricades and eventually finds the remaining men.
Judging from news accounts, Karnes is, in fact, a devout Christian and faithful Marine (who subsequently served two tours of duty in Iraq). But the film glorifies the man in obsequious ways, associating Karnes with beams of celestial light and even, in an officer's delirious hallucinations, with Jesus Christ. At one point, Karnes offers his own Marine Corps recruitment ad: "We are Marines. We're not leaving you. You are our mission."
But the depiction of Karnes is not wholly clear-cut (how could Oliver Stone, the man who has consistently criticized the barbarism of war in previous films, portray this character without question?). Played by creepy character-actor Michael Shannon, Karnes may be a super G.I. Joe, but he's also a little crazy. One observant firefighter says as much. Stone's slightly distorted wide-angle shots of Karnes (Shannon) reinforce this reading. Still, this implicit critique -- which few people will notice -- does little to negate the film's larger problems.
And that is the problem itself. If April's "United 93" had some semblance of restraint and complexity, a few moments questioning our bloodthirsty need for revenge, "World Trade Center" is all pristine suburban lawns and melodramatic reunions. Here is the most important distinction between Hollywood's two 9/11 movies: Everyone knows "United 93" ends in tragedy, whereas the story in "World Trade Center" concludes with an American-flag-waving happy ending. If only life -- and the events of that day -- were so simple.
To Hollywood-ify a historical event is to reduce it, and wrap a supposedly true story into an entertaining, easily digestible package. Oliver Stone knows well the power of film to put forth, and put in stone, a particular version of an incident in time. He did it with his conspiratorial vision of the Kennedy assassination in "JFK."
It's much the same with "World Trade Center." Stone crystallizes the complicated events of 9/11 into an old-fashioned smorgasbord of American heroism, gut feeling and endurance, with a little divine intervention thrown in for good measure. Or, as Nicholas Cage's character aptly put it: "Don't think; keep moving."
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Posted by: mn on Aug 9, 2006 3:46 AM
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» RE: Oliver Stone
Posted by: raiteri
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Posted by: Rolomax on Aug 9, 2006 4:09 AM
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Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 9, 2006 4:34 AM
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» Bush plan to blow up planes with liquid!
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Bush plan to blow up planes with liquid!
Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: Bush plan to blow up planes with liquid!
Posted by: Conservasaurus
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Posted by: terradea on Aug 9, 2006 5:15 AM
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» RE: "Loose Change" Blockbuster, Please
Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: "Loose Change" Blockbuster, Please
Posted by: willymack
» RE: "Loose Change" Blockbuster, Please
Posted by: gar
» RE: "Loose Change" Blockbuster, Please
Posted by: DCostello
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Posted by: marklar on Aug 9, 2006 5:16 AM
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Oliver Stone is great, his movies are great, ususally, but interesting and always entertaining. Enetertainment for profir is the main reason he makes movies. Take it with a grain or tow of salt.
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» RE: Back and to the Left
Posted by: tristansmum35
» ROFL!!
Posted by: 50566
» RE: Gimme a break, 30% of americans can't tell you in which year 911 happened
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Gimme a break, 30% of americans can't tell you in which year 911 happened
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» No she doesn't......... its a fantasy the right has ..... it goes with their drooling over her....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: Conservasaurus on Aug 9, 2006 5:30 AM
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The 9-11 conspiracy myths need to stay where they belong, in comic books and on here! - not on film!
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» mythology is exactly what it is
Posted by: Allan Stevo
» yes it happened just as the commission said it happened don't listen to the tapes
Posted by: owlbear1
» 9-11 conspiracy "questions" cult-ture
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: yes it happened just as the commission said it happened don't listen to the tapes
Posted by: 911lady
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - they new mythology
Posted by: ScruffyBunny
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - they new mythology
Posted by: Rolomax
» People who believe the 911 Commission Myths are lying to themselves-the hero crap is played out 2
Posted by: marklar
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - they new mythology
Posted by: concerned Canadian
» 9-11 conspiracy - THE new mythology (typo corrected - we know thats all Liberals care about)
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» we know thats all Liberals care about
Posted by: 50566
» More questions
Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - THE new mythology (typo corrected - we know thats all Liberals care about)
Posted by: wililysunion
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - they new mythology
Posted by: willymack
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - they new mythology
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» why do we have to do it for you?
Posted by: 50566
» If Kerry had been president
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: JessB
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: JessB
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: lindalee
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: JessB
» Now, Now, Now
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Now, Now, Now
Posted by: JessB
» RE: Now, Now, Now
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» thanks for explaining that to us
Posted by: 50566
» they new mythology
Posted by: 50566
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - the new mythology
Posted by: gar
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Posted by: pixiequix on Aug 9, 2006 5:31 AM
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- So we're clear, my tongue is firmly in cheek.
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» RE: Which Holocaust, Rwanda, Cambodia, Stalins, Native Americans, Armenia, African slavery?
Posted by: marklar
» RE: Which Holocaust, Rwanda, Cambodia, Stalins, Native Americans, Armenia, African slavery?
Posted by: DCostello
» RE: Which Holocaust, Rwanda, Cambodia, Stalins, Native Americans, Armenia, African slavery?
Posted by: Rolomax
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Posted by: Bev on Aug 9, 2006 5:38 AM
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» RE: Just who ARE you people that want to be ENTERTAINED instead
Posted by: JessB
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Posted by: Realman on Aug 9, 2006 7:12 AM
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If Kaufman can't handle that sometimes NYC doesn't ape the ugly realities revealed in exposes, and is just sometimes a city getting along as best it can -- and that in the point of view of the characters in the movie, these were probably realistic, believable experiences -- then he's simply trying to impose his wishes on the movie, and whine about how they weren't fulfilled. Sorry: That's not valid.
The point of view I'm gleaning from what I've seen and heard of the movie is valid. It doesn't rewrite history. It doesn't balance history. It lets people see accurately how some people see their own traumatic and, yes, heroic history. Take it for what it's worth and put it in a political context yourself.
When I saw that AlterNet had posted a commentary about the movie, it crossed my mind to print up some copies and bring them along when I went to see it later today. But now I won't even finish reading it.
Bill Stella
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» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder
Posted by: anthony kaufman
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder
Posted by: bklynbeat
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder
Posted by: anthony kaufman
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder [part 1 of 2]
Posted by: Realman
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder [part 2 of 2]
Posted by: Realman
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder [part 2 of 2]
Posted by: anthony kaufman
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder [part 2 of 2]
Posted by: Ulisses
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder [part 2 of 2]
Posted by: Realman
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Posted by: schnoggi on Aug 9, 2006 7:41 AM
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because he should know better, always check those mirrors man, you should just know that, now you have to live down this idiotic movie.
is anyone really surprised this gump bullshit came out?
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» RE: gump bullshit
Posted by: Ghoulman
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Posted by: robmikejas on Aug 9, 2006 7:49 AM
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» RE: waiting for the real story
Posted by: marklar
» RE: waiting for the real story
Posted by: willymack
» The Revelation Will Not Be Televised
Posted by: cthelyt
» The real 9-11 story...
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» thank you for sharing
Posted by: 50566
» RE: thank you for sharing
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: thank you for sharing
Posted by: lindalee
» RE: thank you for sharing
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: waiting for the real story
Posted by: gar
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Posted by: NonnyO on Aug 9, 2006 8:24 AM
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The story line can be totally not about GWB, but it still reminds me that every time he or a member of his Criminal Cabal do any 'speechifying' they intone maudlin grief in solemn tones about 9/11... followed by warmongering rhetoric and nonsense about these unseen "enemies" and his "war on ter-ra" that we never had before GWB, the Decider-in-Chief, decided to invade Iraq for reasons we knew were a pack of lies to begin with (well, I knew they were lies). The "war on terror" is bogus. The "terrorists" are not part of any country's army; they are criminals. The 9/11 hijackers were criminals. They died with their victims, so there's no one to prosecute in our legal system. Deal with it. There are a few billion people on the planet, and only a few thousand are actually criminals who commit terrorist acts. Why not let law enforcement agencies throughout the world deal with the criminals???
Normal grief lasts one year; anything longer requires counseling for morbid grieving. I'm over the grief of 9/11; I honor the dead, but I'm long over the grief; I'm dealing with reality and wondering why the Bu$hCo administration refuses to recognize that most people are over their grieving. I think it's reprehensible for anyone to capitalize on the grief of the family and friends of the dead (who were from 82 different nations, last I heard; certainly not all those people were from this country).
So, just as I refused to see the previous movie about that day, I refuse to see this one. I will not indirectly celebrate the best day in the life of George W. Bush and pay to be 'entertained' by fictional represenations of someone else's grief. (On the other hand, I need plot lines and story and dialogue to be "entertained" - multiple special effects just don't do it. I'm not a fan of deafening explosions and crashes and visual effects of blood and gore for the sake of showing off special effects.)
So, I categorically refuse to participate in being 'entertained' over someone else's grief, and the most fortunate day in the life of George W. Bush.
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» Amen to that.
Posted by: 50566
» Yeah, what he said.
Posted by: gar
» RE: 9/11 Hyperbole
Posted by: wililysunion
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Aug 9, 2006 8:31 AM
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This is the guy who made the Vietnam Conflict about a boy growing up (with bombs, how American), and the assassination of the US President about a grassy knoll.
Stone deals in american myths and myth making, of course this movie is just that.
I think the article points out the cues that show how disingenuious Stone's New York is quite well. After all, if this movie were truley about the hundreds of police and fire fighters who lost thier lives the detail of how they were misinformed and put into danger by bad calls (hint, if a plane hits your building, get out) that delayed a quick evacuation, would have been a dramatic point. But that was forgotten by Sept 12th in the US media myth machine. But it's not actually about the police or fire personel who lost thier lives... this movie is about the myth. Which the crazy marine rescue freak, filmed in angelic light, is all about.
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Posted by: GreatHeights on Aug 9, 2006 9:46 AM
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Having said that, I fail to see why so many of you are all up in arms about this movie.
Its a scarey world out there. A lot of bad shit is happening. its easy to get cynical. But at the same time, if you are serious about changing the world for the better, you have to take the time to remember the GOOD in people. And despite what has happened as a result of those "attacks" on 9/11, for a short period of time, the best in humanity came forth.
Some of you seem to be saying that the only movie worth making of historical events are those that expose the dirty underbelly of an event, or the disturbing consequences of some action. Only those "real" things are worth showing or remembering, and anything else is just esacpism and Hollywood bullshit.
Well, the fact is, the experience of the two cops depicted in this movie is just as REAL as the conspiracy that planned the attacks, and the wars that the attacks allowed to happen. What is wrong with commemorating the goodness exhibited that day? What's wrong with showing the real struggles of ordinary people that did what they could in the face of tragedy? Remind ourselves that there is good out there is important too, otherwise, what hope is there for the world?
So, maybe this isn't the movie you hoped Oliver Stone would make. Maybe the movie will actually be a terrible film. If you're just disinterested that's one thing. But railing against the movie's concept is just blind cynacism at its worst. Despite what was to follow, I don't find anything wrong with commemorating the courage and heroism that happened that day. In fact, I think it is as important as recognizing the evil that have come about from it as well.
I know this isn't very elloquently stated, but I hope I got across what I'm trying to say.
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» Amen!
Posted by: bklynbeat
» Heroes should be honored
Posted by: coldeye
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Aug 9, 2006 10:08 AM
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» RE: Plan on giving this movie the Farenheit 9/11 treatment.
Posted by: willymack
» RE: Plan on giving this movie the Farenheit 9/11 treatment.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Plan on giving this movie the Farenheit 9/11 treatment.
Posted by: babs
» Nah. I hate disaster profiteers.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Plan on giving this movie the Farenheit 9/11 treatment.
Posted by: wililysunion
» RE: Farenheit 911 was a entertaining and factual movie
Posted by: marklar
» RE: Farenheit 911 was a entertaining and factual movie
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 9, 2006 11:52 AM
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I hope everyone realizes that 9/11 could have been much, much worse - they could have targeted nuclear power reactors and made vast areas of the Eastern seaboard uninhabitable. Bechtel and Westinghouse and GE want to see nuclear power expanded, so we don't see any discussion of this in the US media, but it is another good reason to phase out nuclear power.
One film on 9/11 that deserves unfavorable mention is "Loose Change" - which claims to be a 'amateur video' made by a couple of twenty-something kids. This is startling reminscent of the DCI Group production mocking Al Gore's "Inconvenient Truth" film. See the Wall Street Journal's take on Al Gore's Penguin Army. What is interesting here is that the video claims to be an 'amateur production' made by a '29-year old', yet is actually just one part of a very sophisticated PR campaign. This seems very similar to the "Loose Change" campaign and their "911truth.org" front websites. There is a "Screw Loose Change" video out there that details the specific tactics used in the film. This is a newish trend in PR, but DCI Group specializes in "Corporate Grassroots Campaigns" and has a history of working for the worst people (the Burmese military, for example); that's why I think the same people are behind both films.
The essence of this approach is to put the words of the majority shareholders and CEOs (or of corrupt presidents and their cronies) in the mouths of 'young activists' who have no relation to the sponsors. Why would this be done with "Loose Change"? Simple - to create a ridiculous straw man and protect the president from accusations of incompetence or collusion. The "CIA put bombs in the WTC" BS is a classic example of this very standard PR approach; anyone who asks any questions about 9/11 whatsoever can then be tarred as a 'looney conspiracy theorist'. It's not so hard to understand if you have any knowledge of modern PR tactics.
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» RE: The most accurate film about 9/11 is SYRIANA
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: adp on Aug 9, 2006 1:07 PM
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Posted by: babs on Aug 9, 2006 1:55 PM
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This one will make gazillions of bucks however but don't expect the truth from Hollywood - it doesn't play in Peoria. If you want hard hitting feature films on war and 'terra', watch Three Kings, Syriana, Lord of War, among other fine indie films that don't need the imprimateur of the big, bad money machines, the studios, including the big rat, Disney.
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Posted by: Ellen Remore on Aug 9, 2006 3:13 PM
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Posted by: nixonreaganbush*2 on Aug 9, 2006 8:23 PM
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Simply put, ANYTHING that comes from this administration will be hacked to pieces by the trolls on this pathetic forum. BE ADVISED, Conservatives... because of the nature of politics the next President and Congress will likely be RADICALLY LEFT. This forum will likely diminish because these people will have nothing to seeth about. We will leave Iraq, Afganistan and Guantonimo in shame, as it will be viewed as a victory to the Muslim radicals that we left (and they persevered). We will certainly be struck again by terrorists, because the left has "greived for one year and moved on" (refer to previous posts). There will be a time when I will want to tell some of the folks on this post, "I told you so; but I won't. You would see it in my eye. If you dared to look there.
Come on now..... tell me about how Saddam and his sons were great guys and we should not be there, President Bush orchestrated the 9/11 attacks, how America paid Bin Laden off in oil.....
Do you really believe this? That the President of the United States, regardless of Party, would plan a coordinated, secret domestic attack to kill 3000 Americans to further his agenda? Are you that insecure?
I remember the early '90s when RIGHT WINGERS were scared of the all benelovent left wing government, BIG BROTHER GOVERNMENT, creeping into all aspect of private life, was ready to disarm citizens. Private Militias were formed, claiming BLACK HELECOPTERS and Foreign troops training on our soil for a civil war to take away private weapons. This was during Clinton Years.....
Funny how things have come full circle.......
Does everone see how juvenille all this is?
Just because one Party is in the White House, He is evil??
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» RE: Conspiracy
Posted by: Ellen Remore
» RE: Conspiracy
Posted by: lindalee
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Posted by: Don on Aug 9, 2006 8:44 PM
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The flim clarifies exactly what the somewhat mysterious term "Neo-conservative" means. Too bad PBS hasn't had the balls to broadcast it. I think this work was more enlightening than Fahrenheit 911.
In three one-hour episodes, the film explores the origins dating back to the 1940s and 50s of Islamic Fundamentalism in the Middle East and Neoconservatism in America, parallels between these movements, and their effect on the world today. Using archive footage and interviews to describe their extremist agenda of paranoia and fear, it shows how these political and religious ideologies are actually dependent upon each other to generate fear in the general population of people trying to live their daily lives under conditions where these extremists have gained control. Also revealed is the likelihood that al-Qaeda does not exist in the form of a centrally organised world-wide terrorist organisation as we have been lead to believe by governments and news media.
The first episode begins with the following introduction:
"Both the Islamists and Neoconservatives were idealists who were born out of the failure of the liberal dream to build a better world. And both had a very similar explanation for what caused that failure. These two groups have changed the world, but not in the way that either intended. Together, they created today's nightmare vision of a secret, organised evil that threatens the world. A fantasy that politicians then found to restore their power and authority in a disillusioned age. And those with the darkest fears became the most powerful. "
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» HOW TO VIEW THE VIDEO
Posted by: Don
» RE: The Power of Nightmares, a must-see
Posted by: Phenix
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Posted by: Ellen Remore on Aug 10, 2006 9:48 AM
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» RE: uh, that would be h-e-r-o-e-s, genius. (c'mon,did bush write this?)
Posted by: Ellen Remore
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Posted by: blackinjun on Aug 10, 2006 7:51 PM
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Aug 12, 2006 10:12 AM
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They must've made him an offer he couldn't refuse.
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 13, 2006 7:34 AM
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Money. Half of them work with cash the other uses credit.
Washington said it bes when talking about how to get the land from the Indians. " If we let them aqurie a huge debt, they will do anything to get out from under it,including give up their Land".
The Bushies line of thought is. " If we can scare the People enough,we'll get them to support any action,including Military, to feel secure,then we can make a lot of money off the War.'
If you think I'm full of it. Do a little research on the Bush Family. Interesting Military history. Not as draft dodgers and downed pilots,but as war supporters,directly as in the case of Prescott Bush,who sold lethal goods to the Nazis,in violation of US law, of indirectly as with Bush 1,who in cahoots with Dick Cheney's Haliburton,sold lethals,including poison gasses, to Saddam and Iran,as well as,wepons to Bin Laden. The current petty Tyrant can't seem to eat a pretzel and has a thick teflon hide. Don't worry his I.Q. and his shoe size don't match. His feet are bigger. But he was smart enough to get involved with a heavily layerd plot and see it through,to YOUR
END. This is why the Wealthy should never govern. The toll has always been our Lives and our Freedom. Niether of which do they own.
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Posted by: BalancedMan on Aug 13, 2006 2:52 PM
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Posted by: mn on Aug 9, 2006 3:46 AM
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» RE: Oliver Stone
Posted by: raiteri
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Posted by: Rolomax on Aug 9, 2006 4:09 AM
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Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 9, 2006 4:34 AM
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» Bush plan to blow up planes with liquid!
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Bush plan to blow up planes with liquid!
Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: Bush plan to blow up planes with liquid!
Posted by: Conservasaurus
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Posted by: terradea on Aug 9, 2006 5:15 AM
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» RE: "Loose Change" Blockbuster, Please
Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: "Loose Change" Blockbuster, Please
Posted by: willymack
» RE: "Loose Change" Blockbuster, Please
Posted by: gar
» RE: "Loose Change" Blockbuster, Please
Posted by: DCostello
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Posted by: marklar on Aug 9, 2006 5:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oliver Stone is great, his movies are great, ususally, but interesting and always entertaining. Enetertainment for profir is the main reason he makes movies. Take it with a grain or tow of salt.
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» RE: Back and to the Left
Posted by: tristansmum35
» ROFL!!
Posted by: 50566
» RE: Gimme a break, 30% of americans can't tell you in which year 911 happened
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Gimme a break, 30% of americans can't tell you in which year 911 happened
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» No she doesn't......... its a fantasy the right has ..... it goes with their drooling over her....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: Conservasaurus on Aug 9, 2006 5:30 AM
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The 9-11 conspiracy myths need to stay where they belong, in comic books and on here! - not on film!
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» mythology is exactly what it is
Posted by: Allan Stevo
» yes it happened just as the commission said it happened don't listen to the tapes
Posted by: owlbear1
» 9-11 conspiracy "questions" cult-ture
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: yes it happened just as the commission said it happened don't listen to the tapes
Posted by: 911lady
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - they new mythology
Posted by: ScruffyBunny
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - they new mythology
Posted by: Rolomax
» People who believe the 911 Commission Myths are lying to themselves-the hero crap is played out 2
Posted by: marklar
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - they new mythology
Posted by: concerned Canadian
» 9-11 conspiracy - THE new mythology (typo corrected - we know thats all Liberals care about)
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» we know thats all Liberals care about
Posted by: 50566
» More questions
Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - THE new mythology (typo corrected - we know thats all Liberals care about)
Posted by: wililysunion
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - they new mythology
Posted by: willymack
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - they new mythology
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» why do we have to do it for you?
Posted by: 50566
» If Kerry had been president
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: JessB
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: JessB
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: lindalee
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: If Kerry had been president
Posted by: JessB
» Now, Now, Now
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Now, Now, Now
Posted by: JessB
» RE: Now, Now, Now
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» thanks for explaining that to us
Posted by: 50566
» they new mythology
Posted by: 50566
» RE: 9-11 conspiracy - the new mythology
Posted by: gar
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Posted by: pixiequix on Aug 9, 2006 5:31 AM
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- So we're clear, my tongue is firmly in cheek.
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» RE: Which Holocaust, Rwanda, Cambodia, Stalins, Native Americans, Armenia, African slavery?
Posted by: marklar
» RE: Which Holocaust, Rwanda, Cambodia, Stalins, Native Americans, Armenia, African slavery?
Posted by: DCostello
» RE: Which Holocaust, Rwanda, Cambodia, Stalins, Native Americans, Armenia, African slavery?
Posted by: Rolomax
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Posted by: Bev on Aug 9, 2006 5:38 AM
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» RE: Just who ARE you people that want to be ENTERTAINED instead
Posted by: JessB
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Posted by: Realman on Aug 9, 2006 7:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Kaufman can't handle that sometimes NYC doesn't ape the ugly realities revealed in exposes, and is just sometimes a city getting along as best it can -- and that in the point of view of the characters in the movie, these were probably realistic, believable experiences -- then he's simply trying to impose his wishes on the movie, and whine about how they weren't fulfilled. Sorry: That's not valid.
The point of view I'm gleaning from what I've seen and heard of the movie is valid. It doesn't rewrite history. It doesn't balance history. It lets people see accurately how some people see their own traumatic and, yes, heroic history. Take it for what it's worth and put it in a political context yourself.
When I saw that AlterNet had posted a commentary about the movie, it crossed my mind to print up some copies and bring them along when I went to see it later today. But now I won't even finish reading it.
Bill Stella
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» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder
Posted by: anthony kaufman
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder
Posted by: bklynbeat
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder
Posted by: anthony kaufman
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder [part 1 of 2]
Posted by: Realman
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder [part 2 of 2]
Posted by: Realman
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder [part 2 of 2]
Posted by: anthony kaufman
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder [part 2 of 2]
Posted by: Ulisses
» RE: Believability is in the eye of the beholder [part 2 of 2]
Posted by: Realman
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Posted by: schnoggi on Aug 9, 2006 7:41 AM
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because he should know better, always check those mirrors man, you should just know that, now you have to live down this idiotic movie.
is anyone really surprised this gump bullshit came out?
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» RE: gump bullshit
Posted by: Ghoulman
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Posted by: robmikejas on Aug 9, 2006 7:49 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: waiting for the real story
Posted by: marklar
» RE: waiting for the real story
Posted by: willymack
» The Revelation Will Not Be Televised
Posted by: cthelyt
» The real 9-11 story...
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» thank you for sharing
Posted by: 50566
» RE: thank you for sharing
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: thank you for sharing
Posted by: lindalee
» RE: thank you for sharing
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: waiting for the real story
Posted by: gar
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Posted by: NonnyO on Aug 9, 2006 8:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The story line can be totally not about GWB, but it still reminds me that every time he or a member of his Criminal Cabal do any 'speechifying' they intone maudlin grief in solemn tones about 9/11... followed by warmongering rhetoric and nonsense about these unseen "enemies" and his "war on ter-ra" that we never had before GWB, the Decider-in-Chief, decided to invade Iraq for reasons we knew were a pack of lies to begin with (well, I knew they were lies). The "war on terror" is bogus. The "terrorists" are not part of any country's army; they are criminals. The 9/11 hijackers were criminals. They died with their victims, so there's no one to prosecute in our legal system. Deal with it. There are a few billion people on the planet, and only a few thousand are actually criminals who commit terrorist acts. Why not let law enforcement agencies throughout the world deal with the criminals???
Normal grief lasts one year; anything longer requires counseling for morbid grieving. I'm over the grief of 9/11; I honor the dead, but I'm long over the grief; I'm dealing with reality and wondering why the Bu$hCo administration refuses to recognize that most people are over their grieving. I think it's reprehensible for anyone to capitalize on the grief of the family and friends of the dead (who were from 82 different nations, last I heard; certainly not all those people were from this country).
So, just as I refused to see the previous movie about that day, I refuse to see this one. I will not indirectly celebrate the best day in the life of George W. Bush and pay to be 'entertained' by fictional represenations of someone else's grief. (On the other hand, I need plot lines and story and dialogue to be "entertained" - multiple special effects just don't do it. I'm not a fan of deafening explosions and crashes and visual effects of blood and gore for the sake of showing off special effects.)
So, I categorically refuse to participate in being 'entertained' over someone else's grief, and the most fortunate day in the life of George W. Bush.
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» Amen to that.
Posted by: 50566
» Yeah, what he said.
Posted by: gar
» RE: 9/11 Hyperbole
Posted by: wililysunion
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Aug 9, 2006 8:31 AM
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This is the guy who made the Vietnam Conflict about a boy growing up (with bombs, how American), and the assassination of the US President about a grassy knoll.
Stone deals in american myths and myth making, of course this movie is just that.
I think the article points out the cues that show how disingenuious Stone's New York is quite well. After all, if this movie were truley about the hundreds of police and fire fighters who lost thier lives the detail of how they were misinformed and put into danger by bad calls (hint, if a plane hits your building, get out) that delayed a quick evacuation, would have been a dramatic point. But that was forgotten by Sept 12th in the US media myth machine. But it's not actually about the police or fire personel who lost thier lives... this movie is about the myth. Which the crazy marine rescue freak, filmed in angelic light, is all about.
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Posted by: GreatHeights on Aug 9, 2006 9:46 AM
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Having said that, I fail to see why so many of you are all up in arms about this movie.
Its a scarey world out there. A lot of bad shit is happening. its easy to get cynical. But at the same time, if you are serious about changing the world for the better, you have to take the time to remember the GOOD in people. And despite what has happened as a result of those "attacks" on 9/11, for a short period of time, the best in humanity came forth.
Some of you seem to be saying that the only movie worth making of historical events are those that expose the dirty underbelly of an event, or the disturbing consequences of some action. Only those "real" things are worth showing or remembering, and anything else is just esacpism and Hollywood bullshit.
Well, the fact is, the experience of the two cops depicted in this movie is just as REAL as the conspiracy that planned the attacks, and the wars that the attacks allowed to happen. What is wrong with commemorating the goodness exhibited that day? What's wrong with showing the real struggles of ordinary people that did what they could in the face of tragedy? Remind ourselves that there is good out there is important too, otherwise, what hope is there for the world?
So, maybe this isn't the movie you hoped Oliver Stone would make. Maybe the movie will actually be a terrible film. If you're just disinterested that's one thing. But railing against the movie's concept is just blind cynacism at its worst. Despite what was to follow, I don't find anything wrong with commemorating the courage and heroism that happened that day. In fact, I think it is as important as recognizing the evil that have come about from it as well.
I know this isn't very elloquently stated, but I hope I got across what I'm trying to say.
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» Amen!
Posted by: bklynbeat
» Heroes should be honored
Posted by: coldeye
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Aug 9, 2006 10:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Plan on giving this movie the Farenheit 9/11 treatment.
Posted by: willymack
» RE: Plan on giving this movie the Farenheit 9/11 treatment.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Plan on giving this movie the Farenheit 9/11 treatment.
Posted by: babs
» Nah. I hate disaster profiteers.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Plan on giving this movie the Farenheit 9/11 treatment.
Posted by: wililysunion
» RE: Farenheit 911 was a entertaining and factual movie
Posted by: marklar
» RE: Farenheit 911 was a entertaining and factual movie
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 9, 2006 11:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hope everyone realizes that 9/11 could have been much, much worse - they could have targeted nuclear power reactors and made vast areas of the Eastern seaboard uninhabitable. Bechtel and Westinghouse and GE want to see nuclear power expanded, so we don't see any discussion of this in the US media, but it is another good reason to phase out nuclear power.
One film on 9/11 that deserves unfavorable mention is "Loose Change" - which claims to be a 'amateur video' made by a couple of twenty-something kids. This is startling reminscent of the DCI Group production mocking Al Gore's "Inconvenient Truth" film. See the Wall Street Journal's take on Al Gore's Penguin Army. What is interesting here is that the video claims to be an 'amateur production' made by a '29-year old', yet is actually just one part of a very sophisticated PR campaign. This seems very similar to the "Loose Change" campaign and their "911truth.org" front websites. There is a "Screw Loose Change" video out there that details the specific tactics used in the film. This is a newish trend in PR, but DCI Group specializes in "Corporate Grassroots Campaigns" and has a history of working for the worst people (the Burmese military, for example); that's why I think the same people are behind both films.
The essence of this approach is to put the words of the majority shareholders and CEOs (or of corrupt presidents and their cronies) in the mouths of 'young activists' who have no relation to the sponsors. Why would this be done with "Loose Change"? Simple - to create a ridiculous straw man and protect the president from accusations of incompetence or collusion. The "CIA put bombs in the WTC" BS is a classic example of this very standard PR approach; anyone who asks any questions about 9/11 whatsoever can then be tarred as a 'looney conspiracy theorist'. It's not so hard to understand if you have any knowledge of modern PR tactics.
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» RE: The most accurate film about 9/11 is SYRIANA
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: adp on Aug 9, 2006 1:07 PM
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Posted by: babs on Aug 9, 2006 1:55 PM
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This one will make gazillions of bucks however but don't expect the truth from Hollywood - it doesn't play in Peoria. If you want hard hitting feature films on war and 'terra', watch Three Kings, Syriana, Lord of War, among other fine indie films that don't need the imprimateur of the big, bad money machines, the studios, including the big rat, Disney.
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Posted by: Ellen Remore on Aug 9, 2006 3:13 PM
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Posted by: nixonreaganbush*2 on Aug 9, 2006 8:23 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Simply put, ANYTHING that comes from this administration will be hacked to pieces by the trolls on this pathetic forum. BE ADVISED, Conservatives... because of the nature of politics the next President and Congress will likely be RADICALLY LEFT. This forum will likely diminish because these people will have nothing to seeth about. We will leave Iraq, Afganistan and Guantonimo in shame, as it will be viewed as a victory to the Muslim radicals that we left (and they persevered). We will certainly be struck again by terrorists, because the left has "greived for one year and moved on" (refer to previous posts). There will be a time when I will want to tell some of the folks on this post, "I told you so; but I won't. You would see it in my eye. If you dared to look there.
Come on now..... tell me about how Saddam and his sons were great guys and we should not be there, President Bush orchestrated the 9/11 attacks, how America paid Bin Laden off in oil.....
Do you really believe this? That the President of the United States, regardless of Party, would plan a coordinated, secret domestic attack to kill 3000 Americans to further his agenda? Are you that insecure?
I remember the early '90s when RIGHT WINGERS were scared of the all benelovent left wing government, BIG BROTHER GOVERNMENT, creeping into all aspect of private life, was ready to disarm citizens. Private Militias were formed, claiming BLACK HELECOPTERS and Foreign troops training on our soil for a civil war to take away private weapons. This was during Clinton Years.....
Funny how things have come full circle.......
Does everone see how juvenille all this is?
Just because one Party is in the White House, He is evil??
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» RE: Conspiracy
Posted by: Ellen Remore
» RE: Conspiracy
Posted by: lindalee
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Posted by: Don on Aug 9, 2006 8:44 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The flim clarifies exactly what the somewhat mysterious term "Neo-conservative" means. Too bad PBS hasn't had the balls to broadcast it. I think this work was more enlightening than Fahrenheit 911.
In three one-hour episodes, the film explores the origins dating back to the 1940s and 50s of Islamic Fundamentalism in the Middle East and Neoconservatism in America, parallels between these movements, and their effect on the world today. Using archive footage and interviews to describe their extremist agenda of paranoia and fear, it shows how these political and religious ideologies are actually dependent upon each other to generate fear in the general population of people trying to live their daily lives under conditions where these extremists have gained control. Also revealed is the likelihood that al-Qaeda does not exist in the form of a centrally organised world-wide terrorist organisation as we have been lead to believe by governments and news media.
The first episode begins with the following introduction:
"Both the Islamists and Neoconservatives were idealists who were born out of the failure of the liberal dream to build a better world. And both had a very similar explanation for what caused that failure. These two groups have changed the world, but not in the way that either intended. Together, they created today's nightmare vision of a secret, organised evil that threatens the world. A fantasy that politicians then found to restore their power and authority in a disillusioned age. And those with the darkest fears became the most powerful. "
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» HOW TO VIEW THE VIDEO
Posted by: Don
» RE: The Power of Nightmares, a must-see
Posted by: Phenix
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Posted by: Ellen Remore on Aug 10, 2006 9:48 AM
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» RE: uh, that would be h-e-r-o-e-s, genius. (c'mon,did bush write this?)
Posted by: Ellen Remore
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Posted by: blackinjun on Aug 10, 2006 7:51 PM
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Aug 12, 2006 10:12 AM
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They must've made him an offer he couldn't refuse.
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 13, 2006 7:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Money. Half of them work with cash the other uses credit.
Washington said it bes when talking about how to get the land from the Indians. " If we let them aqurie a huge debt, they will do anything to get out from under it,including give up their Land".
The Bushies line of thought is. " If we can scare the People enough,we'll get them to support any action,including Military, to feel secure,then we can make a lot of money off the War.'
If you think I'm full of it. Do a little research on the Bush Family. Interesting Military history. Not as draft dodgers and downed pilots,but as war supporters,directly as in the case of Prescott Bush,who sold lethal goods to the Nazis,in violation of US law, of indirectly as with Bush 1,who in cahoots with Dick Cheney's Haliburton,sold lethals,including poison gasses, to Saddam and Iran,as well as,wepons to Bin Laden. The current petty Tyrant can't seem to eat a pretzel and has a thick teflon hide. Don't worry his I.Q. and his shoe size don't match. His feet are bigger. But he was smart enough to get involved with a heavily layerd plot and see it through,to YOUR
END. This is why the Wealthy should never govern. The toll has always been our Lives and our Freedom. Niether of which do they own.
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Posted by: BalancedMan on Aug 13, 2006 2:52 PM
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Matt Damon and Morgan Freeman's Invictus Film Release Kicks Off New Campaign For Universal Declaration of Human Rights
'Moon': New Sci-Fi Movie Indicts Our Culture of Exploitation
At the Washington Premiere for 'In the Loop': When Moviemakers Meet Wonks




