COMMENTS: 134
Using Children as 'God's Army'
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The new documentary, Jesus Camp, which chronicles a North Dakota summer camp where kids as young as 6 are taught to become dedicated Christian soldiers in "God's army," is an illustration of this sentiment in the extreme.
The film, by Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady, the duo who also directed the critically-acclaimed The Boys of Baraka, opened to an appreciative and flabbergasted audience at the 2006 TriBeca Film Festival, where it received the Special Jury Award. The directors skillfully captured the daily interactions of a world that would be foreign to most viewers: children speaking in tongues and talking of being "born again" at age 5.
The star of the film is Pastor Becky Fischer, who explains the startling mission of her "Kids on Fire" camp: "I want young people to be as committed to laying down their lives for the Gospel as they are in Pakistan." At the camp, the children are asked: "How many of you want to be those who will give up your life for Jesus?" Little hands shoot up from every direction. They are told: "We have to break the power of the enemy over the government." At one point, Becky yells: "This means war! Are you a part of it or not?" More little hands.
The directors take us into the homes of the children, where we see them "pledge allegiance to the Christian flag" and play a video game called "Creation Adventure" that debunks evolution. A mother helps her children with homework and informs them that, "Global warming is not going to happen. Science doesn't prove anything."
The film takes us back to the camp, where the children are gathered for their daily teaching. Suddenly, a camp counselor places a life-size cardboard cutout before the group. No, it's not Jesus. It's George Bush. Clapping erupts and Becky encourages them to "say hello to the President." Becky claims that "President Bush has added credibility to being a Christian."
Statistics about the spectacular number of "evangelicals" in the United States are ominously flashed onscreen throughout the movie, implicitly suggesting that Becky and her assembled camp are giving us a peek into the inner workings of the "evangelical movement." But it might be worth questioning the conventional wisdom that the 100 million Americans who call themselves evangelicals all march to the same beat. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and James Dobson have a vested interest in presenting this group as a conservative monolith under their exclusive and unquestioned control. And while there is no denying the electoral power of the Religious Right, Democrats should not assume that all, or even a majority, of evangelicals naturally hew to the Republican line.
While it's never disclosed in the movie, Jesus Camp is in fact a Pentecostal camp, which puts it far to the right theologically and politically, even within the evangelical movement. The directors explained that they didn't want to confuse audiences by disclosing this and instead referred to the camp only as "evangelical." Unfortunately, they unwittingly added to the enormous confusion that people like Jim Wallis, author of God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It, has been trying to clear up for years.
Wallis, who is the founder and editor of Sojourners, a progressive Christian magazine, spends much of his time traveling the country talking to students and meeting with evangelical leaders. Wallis believes the future of the country is in the hands of moderate evangelical voters. He estimates, based on polls and personal experience, that about half of evangelicals are the immovable Religious Right but the other half are open to, if not hungry for, progressive leadership.
"The facts on the ground are changing," says Wallis. He reports a marked increase in attendance of his speeches on Christian campuses and the issues he gets asked about the most are not gay marriage or abortion. Wallis says abortion will naturally remain important issue to the moderate evangelical voter, but it is not a litmus test. They want leaders who will acknowledge their moral concerns about this issue and who are committed to decreasing the number of abortions, a position that puts them well within the mainstream of Democratic voters.
And it's no different if Wallis is meeting with the leader of an evangelical mega-church. One such leader recently told Wallis, "I'm a conservative on Jesus, the Bible and the Resurrection, but I'm becoming a social liberal." When Wallis asked why, he heard what has become a familiar refrain: evangelicals are increasingly despairing over the neglect of the poor, the environment, and the U.S. inaction on fighting the genocide in Darfur.
White evangelicals make up close to 25 percent of the electorate and, in 2004, a whopping 78 percent of them voted for George Bush. But evangelicals didn't always line up behind the Republican candidate. According to Pew Research, in 1987, white evangelicals were almost evenly divided between the two parties. And today, many evangelical leaders believe that a growing number of these voters are prepared to return to the Democratic fold, but only if Democrats stop misunderstanding, neglecting, and even intentionally ignoring what was and should be a natural constituency.
Meanwhile, evangelical groups are finding their voice on many progressive issues. U2 front man Bono has talked extensively of the unlikely partnership he has forged with evangelical leaders in fighting the AIDS crisis. One of those leaders is Ted Haggard, a staunch Republican who founded the now 12,000-person New Life Church and heads the National Association of Evangelicals. Haggard personally counseled British Prime Minister Blair on how to persuade President Bush to support Third World debt relief and has made protecting the environment a central issue of concern for his church.
In February, Christianity Today's cover blasted "Why Torture is Always Wrong." Joining with the Catholic Church, more than 50 evangelical Christian leaders and organizations recently voiced their support for an immigration bill that would allow illegal immigrants to become U.S. citizens without returning to their native countries. And earlier this year, a group of 86 evangelical Christian leaders launched a campaign to educate Christians about climate change and urged the U.S. Congress to enact legislation to curb global warming. The campaign calls on Christians to battle global warming, "which will hit the poor the hardest because those areas likely to be significantly affected first are the poorest regions of the world."
These concerns sounds pretty progressive. So, why are so few white evangelicals voting Democratic? Wallis believes Democrats have ceded the territory of religion to the Republican side, allowing them to use it to divide the electorate. Or, as Wallis has said, "I think this idea that all the Christians, all the religious people are jammed in the red states and the blue states are full of agnostics is a bit overblown in the media. It's more complicated than that."
Much, much more complicated.
Copyright © 2006 by The American Prospect, Inc. This article may not be resold, reprinted, or redistributed for compensation of any kind without prior written permission from the author. Direct questions about permissions to permissions@prospect.org.
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Posted by: LMNOP on Jun 12, 2006 1:08 AM
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Christians are making it clear that they don't intend to tolerate secularism or non-Christians. "Good" Christians will be expected to subject their children to these youth camps or face accusations of being less than committed to their deity. It will become increasingly difficult to coexist with them and their agenda to transform America into a theocracy.
These people are as stealthy, angry and aggressive as any paramilitary or white supremacy faction, and they are better organized and better funded. If David Koresh and the Branch Davidians were the lunatic fringe of theis movement, then the politicized evangelicals are the lunatic core.
Watch out for the political Christians.
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» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: nickbk
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: elgitanorubio
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET? sickofsleaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» I thought the Children's Crusade had already been tried.
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: I thought the Children's Crusade had already been tried. sickofsleaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: bergiecc007
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: mrcentrist
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Posted by: mokidugway on Jun 12, 2006 1:40 AM
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If evangelicals are smart enough to figure out that Bush is a false idol, they can be humble enough to join a political movement whose goals more closely approximate their values without insisting that these goals be reframed as Christian.
It is, after all, possible to be an American AND a Christian. That is what the Framers intended when they attached the First Amendment to the Constitution: respect for all religions, representation by none.
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» Wallis
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: All we hear - Christian
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: All we hear - Christian
Posted by: jlm1
» Liberals still don't get it... Fundies don't *care* about facts and logic
Posted by: GreenLibbie
» RE: All we hear - Christian
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: All we hear - Christian
Posted by: scryberwitch
» RE: All we hear - Christian (Good grief! You credit GWB?!)
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: Wallis
Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: Wallis
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Wallis
Posted by: mokidugway
» On the right Path
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: On the right Path
Posted by: DQThurman
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Posted by: churchofone on Jun 12, 2006 3:05 AM
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I expect better writing.
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» RE: Shifting gears
Posted by: Meg
» RE: Shifting gears
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Shifting gears
Posted by: repo
» RE: Shifting gears
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Shifting gears
Posted by: NormaC
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Posted by: paulaH on Jun 12, 2006 4:03 AM
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This article actually makes the sign I used to shake my head at in front of a local (southern) church much more ominous. It was for "Christian Soldiers Day Care".
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» RE: Onward Christian Soldier
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: jessebucksc on Jun 12, 2006 4:26 AM
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On top of the bad writing I'm so tired of hearing how everyone else must put their rights aside and make nice with the evangelicals. I don't care if they are starting to believe in environmental issues... they're still overwhelmingly dedicated to stripping individual rights and freedoms from everyone else.
Likewise, if they want to "reduce abortions" I'd suggest they stop laying around in the streets or harassing people trying to get medical care and adopt some kids. While they're at it, they can also stop whining about Plan B, contraception, and abstinence. It's all so much hooey. As someone recently said: "If the fetus you're protecting grows up to be gay, will you still fight for its rights?"
I think we all know the answer to that one. Come on AlterNet you can get better writers and better articles than this one.
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» RE: Pitiful article
Posted by: churchofone
» RE: Pitiful article
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Pitiful article
Posted by: dsm45dsmi
» RE: It's just you
Posted by: dkm
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Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Jun 12, 2006 4:41 AM
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» Unexpected.
Posted by: Artkansas
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Posted by: wawa on Jun 12, 2006 5:01 AM
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Up until then, it was understood that to be a Christian one would be a NONVIOLENT RESISTER,
even when being nailed to a cross as many social justice radical revolutionary Palestinian Jews [and pagans]
were who upset the status quo by confronting the empire in defense of the poor and oppressed.
Up until Emperor Constantine legitamized Christianity
NO Christian ever served in the military!
One hundred years after Constantine ALL Roman soldiers we required to be baptized.
100 years BEFORE Christ walked the earth a man, Rabbi Hillel,
knew that the Hebrew understanding of Hokema; Holy Wisdom
was the same as the Greek understanding of The Logos:
The Word.
Paul and John understood
The Word was good and
The Word was The Logos
The Word is The Christ
John Lennon on Rubber Soul, intuitively knew:
"The Word is just The Way and The Word is Love"
Use your imagination and you can see that before Christ walked the earth a man,
He was already a She: Hokema, Holy Wisdom; the Feminine Divinity
Now that's GOOD NEWS!!!
MUCH more on WAWA BLOG
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» RE: Up until 350 AD NO Christain ever served in military
Posted by: Jenny
» RE: Up until 350 AD NO Christain ever served in military
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: Up until 350 AD NO Christain ever served in military
Posted by: Sagamorejohn
» RE: Up until 350 AD NO Christain ever served in military
Posted by: owleyes
» Mr. Bip
Posted by: tap17x
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Posted by: Jenny on Jun 12, 2006 5:27 AM
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We know who gives "born again" feelings and has others "speak in tongues". It's the "LA, LA" god. He works hand in hand with Jehovah, the god of war of destruction.
Jenny Miner for Delamer Duverus
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Posted by: NDnative on Jun 12, 2006 5:40 AM
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As for the parents that do their children's homework, this is nothing new. When I was in elementary school, these so-called "science fairs" were always about parents doing the kids' work and look where it got us all. When parents, children, and teachers engage in the kind of social loafing, the faux "religious" scumbags like Robertson, FARTwell, Dobson, etc ... win.
This article also confirms Lakoff's warning that when "conservatives" control the debate and the future, this is what you can expect !
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» Actually, parents do their kids' work here in New York too.
Posted by: medstudgeek
» Models of the California Missions
Posted by: Artkansas
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Posted by: scarface on Jun 12, 2006 6:23 AM
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"But it might be worth questioning the conventional wisdom that the 100 million Americans who call themselves evangelicals all march to the same beat."
Thankyou! Thank you for allowing the possibility that just because some Christians are as crazy as the Jesus Camp crowd, not all are. I've grown up as a Christian, and made my decision at age 5, but it was not like the Jesus Camp. 5 year olds are simply not old enough for concepts like speaking in tongues and martyrdom. What are they thinking?
As for jessebucksc's comment, "I don't care if they are starting to believe in environmental issues... they're still overwhelmingly dedicated to stripping individual rights and freedoms from everyone else," please don't tar everyone with the same brush. If you want us to tolerate your views, you should tolerate ours without resorting to inflammatory rhetoric. Besides, I probably agree with you on some things that might surprise you.
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» RE: There's Christians, and there's Christians
Posted by: BlueTigress
» LIBERAL CHRISTIANS & OTHERS!!!
Posted by: dirkster42
» Plenty of Christians are speaking up
Posted by: moiv
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Posted by: jreinhart1 on Jun 12, 2006 7:03 AM
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To get a good idea of what is happening in our country now, please go to http:/theocracywatch.org . All of the latest information regarding this movement is also listed on this site.
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» RE: These are not Christians but people of dogma, their faith is dead.
Posted by: magistre
» RE: These are not Christians but people of dogma, their faith is dead. sickofskeaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: better yet
Posted by: Io
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Posted by: Roverton on Jun 12, 2006 7:18 AM
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» RE: Devil Worship
Posted by: Wish
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 12, 2006 7:24 AM
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There is a lot of information available on the standard techniques all these groups employ - for example,
Propaganda, Indoctrination, Psyops and Advertising:
"Nazism, the myth of Germanic racial superiority, is an interesting look at a common historical occurrence. Hitler provided the skeleton, but Goebbels and the Propaganda Ministry put flesh on the bones. Use of constant reinforcement, triggering an amazing number of cultural responses such as 'noble sacrifice' and 'total commitment,' use of the 'elite chosen by God' metaphor, indoctrination of the young, all were a masterful implementation by a natural talent."
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Posted by: chaoslegs on Jun 12, 2006 8:04 AM
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This is one of many reasons why I won't ever vote for Joe Lieberman. Not because he is an orthodox Jew, but because he has said that morality comes from religion.
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Jun 12, 2006 9:07 AM
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The only difference is, American kids live richley and without violence while muslim kids in, say, Palestine, live with watching thier family get blown to pieces in the latest Israeli bombings.
What does this say about America? That they live in a fantasy world at war with the real world.
I recon.
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Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Jun 12, 2006 9:42 AM
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Posted by: ciccio on Jun 12, 2006 9:43 AM
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Christian and the Hitler Jugend camps? We have all seen how
high you can rise coming from either.
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Posted by: jesme on Jun 12, 2006 10:44 AM
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But some people are actually denouncing the article because of its nuanced understanding of American religion. They want a flame-throwing denunciation of all things Christian, and don't want to read that people like the ones running the camp are actually quite a small sliver of American Christianity. You'd think people would be happy about that. But no--some readers actually want to believe that millions of their fellow citizens are hate-crazed theocrats. It just isn't so, but they want to think so, for reasons that leave me mystified.
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» RE: Better than the headline
Posted by: paulaH
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Posted by: johnecolby on Jun 12, 2006 10:47 AM
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Posted by: cottontail on Jun 12, 2006 10:51 AM
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Posted by: rafey on Jun 12, 2006 11:33 AM
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Posted by: gbrewste on Jun 12, 2006 12:15 PM
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In actuality, what I understand about the Christian fait can be boiled down to, "Love the lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself." I don't see a lot of love of neighbor coming from the so-called Christian right, and I do not identify with most of their beliefs. The church I go to is very open, and we believe whole-heartedly in Jesus and try to be more like Him. According to my research, Jesus spent a lot of His time with the sinners of the world to try to make their lives better. That is how I want to practice Christianity.
And, before you ask, I do consider homosexuality and abortion sins. However, so are greed and killing innocent civilians in the name of war. The Bible is much more focused on overcoming poverty than preaching against homosexuality. Read the book of Amos sometime for an eyeopener. Also, I would never try to discriminate against a homosexual just like I wouldn't try to discriminate against a greedy person. I would never kill and abortion doctor or support any group that would. As Wallis puts it, we Christians need to be about a life agenda all the way through a person's life, not just before they are born.
Many on the so-called Christian right also forget about the freedom of choice that God gave each one of his children. It is not up to me to decide for someone whether they are going to sin or not. I may try to lovingly influence him or her to change or modify their actions, but in no way will I interfere in their choice. If God chooses not to interfere in that way, then who am I to take on that awesome responsibility.
Sorry if this is a bit rambling. I sometimes don't know when to stop, so I will stop ehre.
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» Mr. Bip
Posted by: tap17x
» RE: Mr. Bip
Posted by: owleyes
» Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: Love your neighbor
Posted by: desertlakes
» RE: Love your neighbor
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Love your neighbor
Posted by: gbrewste
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Posted by: Kym525 on Jun 12, 2006 12:28 PM
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Hmm, seems to me black evangelicals are too busy dealing with real issues that matter to the community such as crime, poverty and economic disparity. Maybe white evanglicals need to stop waiting for the rapture and get their feet back down here to earth!
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Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Jun 12, 2006 12:36 PM
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Posted by: chanceny on Jun 12, 2006 1:33 PM
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Posted by: willymack on Jun 12, 2006 1:49 PM
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Posted by: SamFox on Jun 12, 2006 3:03 PM
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Some of the comments say the camp is akin to a Muslim terrorist camp. The article forgot to mention what explosives the kids were taught to use for suicide bombs. No mention was made of their firearms training. Where is the shooting range located? The ammo dump?
One or more stated that you can be moral and not be Chistian. That is true. But what kind of eternal assurance do you have? Jesus said we must be born again. Why? When asked what good work one must do Jesus said the work of God is to beleive on Him Whom God has sent. That is where true Christianity starts, with Jesus Christ, the One the Father sent.
Some back lash and neg. comments against Christians is deserved. Moral lapses by Christian leaders, so called Christians blowing up clinics...ect. But I think most of the neg. hurled at Christians is because: John 3:16-20 "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whoever will believe on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. He that beleives on Him is not condemned: but he that beleives not is condemned already, because he has not beleived in the Name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men have loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the Light, neither comes to the Light, lest their deeds be reproved."
The article says the yougsters are asked if they are ready to die for their belief. What kind of 'death'? suicide bombs or the like were not mentioned. I was taught to take up my cross daily and death to self (which is basically any thing that would lead us to break one of the 10 commandments... There are New Testament coralaries for all but Saturday worship). We are not to murder ourselves or others. (Suicide bombs are out.) When confronted with martyrdom, like in the Roman arena, we must be ready to love not our life even if means we are physically killed. But if some one breaks into my home...
I suppose it's that the children are being 'programmed' to be Christians that raised the hackels of the author. Not many want to be called sinners, but according to the Bible we all are.
By the way, I agree with the opening paragraph. And I agree there is room for improvement in the Christian community. But there are no valid reasons for the bias against and the movement to exclude Christians from any legitimate arena, like politics, creation/evoulution, abortion, the removal of historical Christian symbols...The USA was founded on Biblical principles by men who mostly beleived in God and the Bible. What is the fruit in our schools from kicking God out? Over all they are a mess! Our founders are the ones who fought, killed and died for independance from England. Wanna go back?
There were military converts in Jesus day. Ask John the Baptist. He told them how to live.
Just a shout form the nosebleed section!
Sam Fox, aka medMUser
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» RE: What are so many afraid of?
Posted by: Xanzyl
» Mr. Bip
Posted by: tap17x
» RE: What are so many afraid of?
Posted by: paulaH
» To some extent, it boils down to bad manners
Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: To some extent, it boils down to bad manners
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: To some extent, it boils down to bad manners
Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» RE: What are so many afraid of?
Posted by: Xanzyl
» RE: What are so many afraid of?
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: What are so many afraid of?
Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
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Posted by: SanFranDuke on Jun 12, 2006 3:17 PM
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It is oximoronic to brain wash children to be "Christian soldiers." Even the bowdlerized version of the New Testament that has been passed down to us never advocates fighting under any circumstances; ergo, why would there be any need for soldiers?
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Posted by: KatieOpinion on Jun 12, 2006 4:31 PM
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» RE: vangelical Christian reaction
Posted by: scryberwitch
» A Gnostic Christian Reaction
Posted by: Kym525
» Mr. Bip
Posted by: tap17x
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Posted by: zombi on Jun 12, 2006 6:33 PM
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» RE: hey, what if?
Posted by: famouspipeliner
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Posted by: Gregor on Jun 12, 2006 6:49 PM
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Boy Scouts, Hitler Youth, Behavior Camps...Brainwashing all wears off when reality serves to make people realize that their nice little apple pie world is not how the rest of the world lives. Try and reconcile good, right, noble with poverty, pain, injustice and hate. No more brainwashing.
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Posted by: pjrsullivan on Jun 12, 2006 8:07 PM
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As a youngster everyday I would go to mass before school and eat the body and drink the blood of a little cannibal cult kid from Jerusalem. The Blood that we drank and the body that we ate belonged to a 33 year old Jewish lad who lived with his mother and drank wine. This may be why some people claim that he was actually Irish.
Yet upon reflection, can you imagine how the Jews must feel about this. No wonder that they are nervous about falling into the hands of the Christian right. Everyday before school practicing eating the body and drinking the blood of a Jew!
The "Master" class takes our money to finance this religious activity. Basically a forced taking of wealth to Foster "Mindless" behavior, some of these groups produce people who tend to be very dangerous in everyday life situations, though most are harmless enough.
This mind controlled group can find ways to trick their minds into accepting all sorts of things that can be very adverse to other humans.
.
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» RE: Blood Cannibal Cult
Posted by: bronx_girl
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Posted by: paulaH on Jun 12, 2006 8:09 PM
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I have a friend that is Baptist (yes, yes, you can believe it!). We have had many a conversation on many a subject. Her real beliefs fall more in line with Wallis...when she's not attending a church, that is. When she goes to church several weeks in a row, her entire opinion not only changes, she thinks that's what she's always believed! When she stops going to church for awhile, she reverts back to her original opinions. She never even realizes those opinions changed. It's freaking weird to be on the outside and seeing this!
My sister is this way, too. I consider her a true Christian and she truly does try to live the way Jesus taught. Here again, though, church gets in the way. One time she, who is now an evangelical Nazarene, asked me if I had ever read about the Catholic beliefs. She declared, "those people are evil!" She meant it, too. She went on to tell me just how evil Catholics are. I sat staring at her in open mouthed astonishment. When she was finished her diatribe, I reminded her that we were raised Catholic and our mother was still Catholic. "Are you trying to tell me Mom is evil?" I asked in total disbelief. (my mother was a damned good woman and a better Christian than anyone else I've ever known).
The look on my sister's face was amazing. The expression said, "Oh! I forgot about that!" Yes, folks, this graduate of Catholic parochial school FORGOT she was Catholic for all of her young life.
Who needs camps? The churches are doing a bangup job of brainwashing the masses. That's why they're so adamant about getting the young people into the churches. Just as Hitler and Stalin knew, if you can start the brainwashing early enough, it will hold throughout a person's life.
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Posted by: Melvin on Jun 12, 2006 8:14 PM
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Perhaps the rest of the world should just lock out the USA.
Sorry guys ; you are just an embarrasment to civilization.
Is there anyone big enough over there to give the country a big shake? Wake up!
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» RE: THE SECOND COMING
Posted by: Aussie Kim
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Posted by: talkville on Jun 12, 2006 9:16 PM
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Posted by: DavidTbone on Jun 12, 2006 10:11 PM
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These posts all convey a hostility in one way or another about religious beliefs. As a Christian I am horrified by the Right Wing use of the Bible to condemn gays, or anybody else whose sin differs from the Right Wing's. Their neglect of the poor and the sick, and their hypocrasy of calling themselves Pro-Life while they cheer the perversions of GITMO and Abu Ghraib is spiritually sickening. But they soothe their spirits through the materialistic therapy WalMart and Target offer them.
When I attend meetings or attempt to share ideas online I am barraged by fellow progressives who make hateful attacks on a religion that I am apart of. People, you are not going to run me away from this fight with your elitist satire of Christianity and all who follow. The Civil Rights movement began in church, while social and labor movements were creating fascism in Russia and Eastern Europe. Any good ideology can become corrupt for wanting of power.
While thousands of innocents are being slaughtered, we have the luxury of taking the bait again and again over religious bickering. You know, it wouldnt take somebody well versed in the Bible to challenge the Repuke definition of morality. Week in and out I hear Bill Maher and others ridicule something I believe in with all my being. A belief that the creator wants us all to love one another, and to treat those who are poor, sick, elderly, or persecuted with dignity and respect. Im sorry that people have distorted the words of Christ, that is something that has made me an outcast at times within my own family. I dont apologize for being Christian, nor do I apologize for the compassion and mercy that He speaks of.
People who believe in inclusion, should offer a little tolerance to people of Christian faith. If you ever want to win an election you are going to have to reach out, that's just mathematics.
The root of our moral crisis is this market place, dog-eat-dog way of life. Me First. Look out for #1. Until we as progressives show people that we dont have to live that immoral lifestyle, the definiton of morality will stand uncontested and we will continue our school yard name calling. So in the meantime I promise I will never judge any of you for your religious beliefs, try to stop insulting me for mine. Its just another form of self-righteous condemnation of others.
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» RE: Blessed are the Peacemakers
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Blessed are the Peacemakers
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Blessed are the Peacemakers
Posted by: RosieRivetor
» RE: Blessed are the Peacemakers
Posted by: DavidTbone
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Posted by: Aussie Kim on Jun 12, 2006 10:21 PM
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I do LOVE the way the fundy loonies in the US condemn other people and other countries for being obsessive, for brain-washing children, for being fundamentalists who will stop at nothing, etc, etc, and yet it's ok for them to do EXACTLY THE SAME THING!
USSA - PLEASE build a big wall around yourselves and don't come out.
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Posted by: Aureantes on Jun 13, 2006 12:04 AM
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Follow Christ if that's the teacher you believe in, but don't assume that "Christianity for everyone" will save the world. It certainly hasn't worked too well in history so far, especially with all the schism and fractures and holy wars. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Communism and Capitalism have all tried the same thing in their turn, and it's never been a particularly well-handled project, to try to enforce uniformity of belief/worship/practice. Just look up Aldous Huxley or Eric Hoffer on that matter -- it's a human drive, but one of the least rational or defensible ones still remaining in us.
NO absolute "religion" (including anti-religion) will ever work for all individuals. Unless people come (or return, or renew) of themselves to a spiritual path that they feel is theirs--regardless of what others believe for themselves--it cannot be authentic, and the attempts of ideological mass entities to claim all minds/souls to themselves are fated to result in tragedy.
To use the Catholic jargon, I believe that aggressive proselytizing is a mortal sin. And I see little difference between one major religion and another within the article above, except that the American Christianists haven't been given weapons yet. They'll learn to use them in the U.S. military, anticipatedly under the auspices of the anointed successor(s) to their present Commander-in-Chief. See the advantages of having your religion already sponsored as nationalistic?
(More at my blog)
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Posted by: mizpearl on Jun 13, 2006 11:18 AM
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All Christians are not bad, or even most of them. These are just the only ones you hear about, because it makes good copy.
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Posted by: finefair on Jun 13, 2006 9:26 PM
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Questionable medieval records suggest children go on a crusade to liberate the Holy Land but get sold into slavery instead.
As medieval knights couldn't seem to conquer and keep the Holy Land, in 1212 a precocious youngster from France named Stephen of Cloyes decided that maybe children could. Hey, if full-grown men with armor and swords couldn't do it, who better to dispatch the infidel Turks from Jerusalem than a rabble of defenseless, runny-nosed brats? Stephen managed to convince 25,000, or maybe 30,000, "of whom none were more than twelve years of age", to go with him. They were supposed to march to the Mediterranean, it was supposed to part for them, and they were supposed to walk into the Holy Land like they owned the place. Did 30,000 French children and German - Alberic, historian Peter Raedts suggests, appears to have blended them together. really think that they could take Jerusalem by storm, only to get tragic and hilarious comeuppance? Certainly not. It's too bad, really: we love to hear about the suffering of upright, snotty children just as much as anybody else.
You can imagine their chagrin when they arrived to the rolling waves of the Mediterranean, which was not parting for anybody. One envisions thirty thousand children crying and throwing tantrums on the beach.
Into this melancholy scene, chronicler Alberic of Troisfontaines recounts, arrived wealthy merchants Hugo Ferreus and William Porcus, who beneficently offered free passage to the Crusaders. They got seven boats together, crammed them to the rafters with children, and everyone was off. After the boats disappeared from sight, nobody heard from them for eighteen long years, at which point one of the kids returned with a sorry tale:
Two ships were supposedly wrecked off the coast of Sardinia, killing everyone aboard. Not long afterwards the remaining five ships landed east of Algiers and their human cargo promptly sold into slavery to the infidels. "Was it for this," they asked, "that we have taken the Cross and enlisted in the army of Christ? Is it thus the soldiers of the holy cause are rewarded?" Looks that way. As a final piece of christian propaganda,
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Posted by: Urstrly on Jun 14, 2006 6:19 AM
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Posted by: DavidTbone on Jun 14, 2006 7:36 AM
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It permeates society. Terrorists, mexicans, people driving too slow in the fast lane, liberals, 9/11 widows.... so much to be angry about.
With all of the horror going on in our world, where did we find time for hating all of these Mexicans, all of the sudden? Whether they like it or not, the Children's Army is going to have to be bilingual.
A majority of church people have been lead away by the stranger. They no longer heed the voice of the Shepherd.
The greatest threat to Christianity is is christians. At some point it may be too late to look back.
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Posted by: JDHorn on Jun 14, 2006 9:30 AM
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I'm not about to waste time peruading others they on a blind road that will only end in oblivion that Audie Murphy and Jim Morrison called, "the big sleep."
I've "cancelled my subscription to the resurrection." What you do, is up to you!
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Posted by: Kym525 on Jun 14, 2006 10:28 AM
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However, I don't sit and whine about articles like this. I don't pitch a tizzy fit and try to come off as a 'poor beleagered and persecuted Christian', especially because I have friends who practice non-traditional beliefs such as Wicca and Buddhism and I've seen firsthand the kind of hate and intolerance THEY go through - from having their cars vandalized because they have a pentacle sticker on the bumper, to their kids being singled out at school because their parents don't attend megachurches like Saddleback or The Rock.
Articles like this remind me that as a Christian, I and my fellow Christians have a LONG way to go to practice what we preach. Articles like this should remind all of us that we should be wresting the healing nd compassionate gospel of Jesus from zealots and hatemongers who are currupting his word for their own egotistical ends.
If you really want to do something, how about the next time the Klan has a rally and tries to use God's Word as their rallying cry for racial hatred, how about you get in their faces and tell them they're NOT CHRISTIANS! Or going into urban neighborhoods to bring food or volunteer as a tutor. How about working the Shanti Project or other AIDS-related organizations to bring hope and comfort to those stricken with HIV/AIDS?
Can you do THAT rather than complain about being singled out for your faith?
Peace...
Kym
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» RE: A Gnostic Christian Reaction
Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» An "almost" Gnostic but still ignorant Christian Reaction
Posted by: popsicle67
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Posted by: Melvin on Jun 14, 2006 6:27 PM
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Says it all does it not? Off the wall religious evangelical/born again/do it by the "book" idiots will be the death of too many innocent people.No different to the Taliban.
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» RE: When will they never learn
Posted by: robmikejas
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Posted by: cpatton on Jun 15, 2006 8:18 AM
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The problem is that this is not what Jesus taught. He told Pilate that His Kingdom was not of this world or age or His servants would fight! (John 18:36-37) Yeshua is King of Israel and King of the kings of the nations, but He has not returned to claim His crowns. He came the first time to deal with individual sins according to one's faith. He comes again soon to deal with the societal sins by overturning the god of this age, Satan, and destroying the babylonish political states that rule with oppression and war with deceit in fulfillment of the Destroyer's desires.
Woe to those who teach children to sin so abominably as to war! Judgment will probably come sooner than later. For more articles along this line of reasoning go to: http://www.apocalypse2008-2015.com/articles_index.html and particluarly to "The God of Israel Loves Arabs and All Peoples" at: http://www.apocalypse2008-2015.com/God_Loves_Arabs.html.
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Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Jun 17, 2006 2:57 AM
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» All religion is salesmanship
Posted by: popsicle67
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Posted by: RhodesVan3000 on Jun 17, 2006 10:50 AM
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They are the Boy Scouts!
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Posted by: apple pie on Jun 17, 2006 3:10 PM
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How come these people can get away with this as long as they call themselves Christians but when the Panthers tried it in Oakland they were all slaughtered or sent to the the gulag permanently?
The cops should start doing their job rather than just collecting paychecks and sitting on their butts on the freeway waiting for a Volvo with California plates to go by.
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Posted by: popsicle67 on Jun 17, 2006 11:14 PM
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Why do we still have these parochial wastes of skin around?
I mean there is freedom of speech but does that not stop when speech turns hurtful. When did religion turn into this fight for survival anyhow. Nobody has a belief that has enough facts to back it up anyhow so they all fight over who has more faith and whose invisible man has the bigger belt buckle or whatever. It's all a bunch of damn nonsense but up until a few years ago they were pretty inoccuous. I think the problem may stem from too many preachers trying to fleece a smaller and smaller flock, just like lawyers getting to be too dense for the population. It takes a lot less work to sell satan to dimwits then get them to pay for protection than to find a real job. Hell I think I'll start a religious cult and retire.
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Posted by: LMNOP on Jun 12, 2006 1:08 AM
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Christians are making it clear that they don't intend to tolerate secularism or non-Christians. "Good" Christians will be expected to subject their children to these youth camps or face accusations of being less than committed to their deity. It will become increasingly difficult to coexist with them and their agenda to transform America into a theocracy.
These people are as stealthy, angry and aggressive as any paramilitary or white supremacy faction, and they are better organized and better funded. If David Koresh and the Branch Davidians were the lunatic fringe of theis movement, then the politicized evangelicals are the lunatic core.
Watch out for the political Christians.
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» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: nickbk
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: elgitanorubio
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET? sickofsleaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» I thought the Children's Crusade had already been tried.
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: I thought the Children's Crusade had already been tried. sickofsleaze
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» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: bergiecc007
» RE: HOW BAD CAN IT GET?
Posted by: mrcentrist
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Posted by: mokidugway on Jun 12, 2006 1:40 AM
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If evangelicals are smart enough to figure out that Bush is a false idol, they can be humble enough to join a political movement whose goals more closely approximate their values without insisting that these goals be reframed as Christian.
It is, after all, possible to be an American AND a Christian. That is what the Framers intended when they attached the First Amendment to the Constitution: respect for all religions, representation by none.
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» Wallis
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: All we hear - Christian
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: All we hear - Christian
Posted by: jlm1
» Liberals still don't get it... Fundies don't *care* about facts and logic
Posted by: GreenLibbie
» RE: All we hear - Christian
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: All we hear - Christian
Posted by: scryberwitch
» RE: All we hear - Christian (Good grief! You credit GWB?!)
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: Wallis
Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: Wallis
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Wallis
Posted by: mokidugway
» On the right Path
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: On the right Path
Posted by: DQThurman
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Posted by: churchofone on Jun 12, 2006 3:05 AM
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I expect better writing.
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» RE: Shifting gears
Posted by: Meg
» RE: Shifting gears
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Shifting gears
Posted by: repo
» RE: Shifting gears
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Shifting gears
Posted by: NormaC
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Posted by: paulaH on Jun 12, 2006 4:03 AM
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This article actually makes the sign I used to shake my head at in front of a local (southern) church much more ominous. It was for "Christian Soldiers Day Care".
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» RE: Onward Christian Soldier
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: jessebucksc on Jun 12, 2006 4:26 AM
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On top of the bad writing I'm so tired of hearing how everyone else must put their rights aside and make nice with the evangelicals. I don't care if they are starting to believe in environmental issues... they're still overwhelmingly dedicated to stripping individual rights and freedoms from everyone else.
Likewise, if they want to "reduce abortions" I'd suggest they stop laying around in the streets or harassing people trying to get medical care and adopt some kids. While they're at it, they can also stop whining about Plan B, contraception, and abstinence. It's all so much hooey. As someone recently said: "If the fetus you're protecting grows up to be gay, will you still fight for its rights?"
I think we all know the answer to that one. Come on AlterNet you can get better writers and better articles than this one.
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» RE: Pitiful article
Posted by: churchofone
» RE: Pitiful article
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Pitiful article
Posted by: dsm45dsmi
» RE: It's just you
Posted by: dkm
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Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Jun 12, 2006 4:41 AM
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» Unexpected.
Posted by: Artkansas
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Posted by: wawa on Jun 12, 2006 5:01 AM
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Up until then, it was understood that to be a Christian one would be a NONVIOLENT RESISTER,
even when being nailed to a cross as many social justice radical revolutionary Palestinian Jews [and pagans]
were who upset the status quo by confronting the empire in defense of the poor and oppressed.
Up until Emperor Constantine legitamized Christianity
NO Christian ever served in the military!
One hundred years after Constantine ALL Roman soldiers we required to be baptized.
100 years BEFORE Christ walked the earth a man, Rabbi Hillel,
knew that the Hebrew understanding of Hokema; Holy Wisdom
was the same as the Greek understanding of The Logos:
The Word.
Paul and John understood
The Word was good and
The Word was The Logos
The Word is The Christ
John Lennon on Rubber Soul, intuitively knew:
"The Word is just The Way and The Word is Love"
Use your imagination and you can see that before Christ walked the earth a man,
He was already a She: Hokema, Holy Wisdom; the Feminine Divinity
Now that's GOOD NEWS!!!
MUCH more on WAWA BLOG
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» RE: Up until 350 AD NO Christain ever served in military
Posted by: Jenny
» RE: Up until 350 AD NO Christain ever served in military
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: Up until 350 AD NO Christain ever served in military
Posted by: Sagamorejohn
» RE: Up until 350 AD NO Christain ever served in military
Posted by: owleyes
» Mr. Bip
Posted by: tap17x
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Posted by: Jenny on Jun 12, 2006 5:27 AM
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We know who gives "born again" feelings and has others "speak in tongues". It's the "LA, LA" god. He works hand in hand with Jehovah, the god of war of destruction.
Jenny Miner for Delamer Duverus
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Posted by: NDnative on Jun 12, 2006 5:40 AM
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As for the parents that do their children's homework, this is nothing new. When I was in elementary school, these so-called "science fairs" were always about parents doing the kids' work and look where it got us all. When parents, children, and teachers engage in the kind of social loafing, the faux "religious" scumbags like Robertson, FARTwell, Dobson, etc ... win.
This article also confirms Lakoff's warning that when "conservatives" control the debate and the future, this is what you can expect !
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» Actually, parents do their kids' work here in New York too.
Posted by: medstudgeek
» Models of the California Missions
Posted by: Artkansas
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Posted by: scarface on Jun 12, 2006 6:23 AM
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"But it might be worth questioning the conventional wisdom that the 100 million Americans who call themselves evangelicals all march to the same beat."
Thankyou! Thank you for allowing the possibility that just because some Christians are as crazy as the Jesus Camp crowd, not all are. I've grown up as a Christian, and made my decision at age 5, but it was not like the Jesus Camp. 5 year olds are simply not old enough for concepts like speaking in tongues and martyrdom. What are they thinking?
As for jessebucksc's comment, "I don't care if they are starting to believe in environmental issues... they're still overwhelmingly dedicated to stripping individual rights and freedoms from everyone else," please don't tar everyone with the same brush. If you want us to tolerate your views, you should tolerate ours without resorting to inflammatory rhetoric. Besides, I probably agree with you on some things that might surprise you.
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» RE: There's Christians, and there's Christians
Posted by: BlueTigress
» LIBERAL CHRISTIANS & OTHERS!!!
Posted by: dirkster42
» Plenty of Christians are speaking up
Posted by: moiv
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Posted by: jreinhart1 on Jun 12, 2006 7:03 AM
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To get a good idea of what is happening in our country now, please go to http:/theocracywatch.org . All of the latest information regarding this movement is also listed on this site.
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» RE: These are not Christians but people of dogma, their faith is dead.
Posted by: magistre
» RE: These are not Christians but people of dogma, their faith is dead. sickofskeaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: better yet
Posted by: Io
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Posted by: Roverton on Jun 12, 2006 7:18 AM
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» RE: Devil Worship
Posted by: Wish
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 12, 2006 7:24 AM
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There is a lot of information available on the standard techniques all these groups employ - for example,
Propaganda, Indoctrination, Psyops and Advertising:
"Nazism, the myth of Germanic racial superiority, is an interesting look at a common historical occurrence. Hitler provided the skeleton, but Goebbels and the Propaganda Ministry put flesh on the bones. Use of constant reinforcement, triggering an amazing number of cultural responses such as 'noble sacrifice' and 'total commitment,' use of the 'elite chosen by God' metaphor, indoctrination of the young, all were a masterful implementation by a natural talent."
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Posted by: chaoslegs on Jun 12, 2006 8:04 AM
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This is one of many reasons why I won't ever vote for Joe Lieberman. Not because he is an orthodox Jew, but because he has said that morality comes from religion.
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Jun 12, 2006 9:07 AM
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The only difference is, American kids live richley and without violence while muslim kids in, say, Palestine, live with watching thier family get blown to pieces in the latest Israeli bombings.
What does this say about America? That they live in a fantasy world at war with the real world.
I recon.
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Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Jun 12, 2006 9:42 AM
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Posted by: ciccio on Jun 12, 2006 9:43 AM
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Christian and the Hitler Jugend camps? We have all seen how
high you can rise coming from either.
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Posted by: jesme on Jun 12, 2006 10:44 AM
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But some people are actually denouncing the article because of its nuanced understanding of American religion. They want a flame-throwing denunciation of all things Christian, and don't want to read that people like the ones running the camp are actually quite a small sliver of American Christianity. You'd think people would be happy about that. But no--some readers actually want to believe that millions of their fellow citizens are hate-crazed theocrats. It just isn't so, but they want to think so, for reasons that leave me mystified.
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» RE: Better than the headline
Posted by: paulaH
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Posted by: johnecolby on Jun 12, 2006 10:47 AM
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Posted by: cottontail on Jun 12, 2006 10:51 AM
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Posted by: rafey on Jun 12, 2006 11:33 AM
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Posted by: gbrewste on Jun 12, 2006 12:15 PM
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In actuality, what I understand about the Christian fait can be boiled down to, "Love the lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself." I don't see a lot of love of neighbor coming from the so-called Christian right, and I do not identify with most of their beliefs. The church I go to is very open, and we believe whole-heartedly in Jesus and try to be more like Him. According to my research, Jesus spent a lot of His time with the sinners of the world to try to make their lives better. That is how I want to practice Christianity.
And, before you ask, I do consider homosexuality and abortion sins. However, so are greed and killing innocent civilians in the name of war. The Bible is much more focused on overcoming poverty than preaching against homosexuality. Read the book of Amos sometime for an eyeopener. Also, I would never try to discriminate against a homosexual just like I wouldn't try to discriminate against a greedy person. I would never kill and abortion doctor or support any group that would. As Wallis puts it, we Christians need to be about a life agenda all the way through a person's life, not just before they are born.
Many on the so-called Christian right also forget about the freedom of choice that God gave each one of his children. It is not up to me to decide for someone whether they are going to sin or not. I may try to lovingly influence him or her to change or modify their actions, but in no way will I interfere in their choice. If God chooses not to interfere in that way, then who am I to take on that awesome responsibility.
Sorry if this is a bit rambling. I sometimes don't know when to stop, so I will stop ehre.
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» Mr. Bip
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» RE: Mr. Bip
Posted by: owleyes
» Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: Love your neighbor
Posted by: desertlakes
» RE: Love your neighbor
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Love your neighbor
Posted by: gbrewste
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Posted by: Kym525 on Jun 12, 2006 12:28 PM
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Hmm, seems to me black evangelicals are too busy dealing with real issues that matter to the community such as crime, poverty and economic disparity. Maybe white evanglicals need to stop waiting for the rapture and get their feet back down here to earth!
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Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Jun 12, 2006 12:36 PM
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Posted by: chanceny on Jun 12, 2006 1:33 PM
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Posted by: willymack on Jun 12, 2006 1:49 PM
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Posted by: SamFox on Jun 12, 2006 3:03 PM
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Some of the comments say the camp is akin to a Muslim terrorist camp. The article forgot to mention what explosives the kids were taught to use for suicide bombs. No mention was made of their firearms training. Where is the shooting range located? The ammo dump?
One or more stated that you can be moral and not be Chistian. That is true. But what kind of eternal assurance do you have? Jesus said we must be born again. Why? When asked what good work one must do Jesus said the work of God is to beleive on Him Whom God has sent. That is where true Christianity starts, with Jesus Christ, the One the Father sent.
Some back lash and neg. comments against Christians is deserved. Moral lapses by Christian leaders, so called Christians blowing up clinics...ect. But I think most of the neg. hurled at Christians is because: John 3:16-20 "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whoever will believe on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. He that beleives on Him is not condemned: but he that beleives not is condemned already, because he has not beleived in the Name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men have loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the Light, neither comes to the Light, lest their deeds be reproved."
The article says the yougsters are asked if they are ready to die for their belief. What kind of 'death'? suicide bombs or the like were not mentioned. I was taught to take up my cross daily and death to self (which is basically any thing that would lead us to break one of the 10 commandments... There are New Testament coralaries for all but Saturday worship). We are not to murder ourselves or others. (Suicide bombs are out.) When confronted with martyrdom, like in the Roman arena, we must be ready to love not our life even if means we are physically killed. But if some one breaks into my home...
I suppose it's that the children are being 'programmed' to be Christians that raised the hackels of the author. Not many want to be called sinners, but according to the Bible we all are.
By the way, I agree with the opening paragraph. And I agree there is room for improvement in the Christian community. But there are no valid reasons for the bias against and the movement to exclude Christians from any legitimate arena, like politics, creation/evoulution, abortion, the removal of historical Christian symbols...The USA was founded on Biblical principles by men who mostly beleived in God and the Bible. What is the fruit in our schools from kicking God out? Over all they are a mess! Our founders are the ones who fought, killed and died for independance from England. Wanna go back?
There were military converts in Jesus day. Ask John the Baptist. He told them how to live.
Just a shout form the nosebleed section!
Sam Fox, aka medMUser
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» RE: What are so many afraid of?
Posted by: Xanzyl
» Mr. Bip
Posted by: tap17x
» RE: What are so many afraid of?
Posted by: paulaH
» To some extent, it boils down to bad manners
Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: To some extent, it boils down to bad manners
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» RE: To some extent, it boils down to bad manners
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» RE: What are so many afraid of?
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» RE: What are so many afraid of?
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» RE: What are so many afraid of?
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Posted by: SanFranDuke on Jun 12, 2006 3:17 PM
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It is oximoronic to brain wash children to be "Christian soldiers." Even the bowdlerized version of the New Testament that has been passed down to us never advocates fighting under any circumstances; ergo, why would there be any need for soldiers?
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Posted by: KatieOpinion on Jun 12, 2006 4:31 PM
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» RE: vangelical Christian reaction
Posted by: scryberwitch
» A Gnostic Christian Reaction
Posted by: Kym525
» Mr. Bip
Posted by: tap17x
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Posted by: zombi on Jun 12, 2006 6:33 PM
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» RE: hey, what if?
Posted by: famouspipeliner
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Posted by: Gregor on Jun 12, 2006 6:49 PM
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Boy Scouts, Hitler Youth, Behavior Camps...Brainwashing all wears off when reality serves to make people realize that their nice little apple pie world is not how the rest of the world lives. Try and reconcile good, right, noble with poverty, pain, injustice and hate. No more brainwashing.
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Posted by: pjrsullivan on Jun 12, 2006 8:07 PM
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As a youngster everyday I would go to mass before school and eat the body and drink the blood of a little cannibal cult kid from Jerusalem. The Blood that we drank and the body that we ate belonged to a 33 year old Jewish lad who lived with his mother and drank wine. This may be why some people claim that he was actually Irish.
Yet upon reflection, can you imagine how the Jews must feel about this. No wonder that they are nervous about falling into the hands of the Christian right. Everyday before school practicing eating the body and drinking the blood of a Jew!
The "Master" class takes our money to finance this religious activity. Basically a forced taking of wealth to Foster "Mindless" behavior, some of these groups produce people who tend to be very dangerous in everyday life situations, though most are harmless enough.
This mind controlled group can find ways to trick their minds into accepting all sorts of things that can be very adverse to other humans.
.
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» RE: Blood Cannibal Cult
Posted by: bronx_girl
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Posted by: paulaH on Jun 12, 2006 8:09 PM
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I have a friend that is Baptist (yes, yes, you can believe it!). We have had many a conversation on many a subject. Her real beliefs fall more in line with Wallis...when she's not attending a church, that is. When she goes to church several weeks in a row, her entire opinion not only changes, she thinks that's what she's always believed! When she stops going to church for awhile, she reverts back to her original opinions. She never even realizes those opinions changed. It's freaking weird to be on the outside and seeing this!
My sister is this way, too. I consider her a true Christian and she truly does try to live the way Jesus taught. Here again, though, church gets in the way. One time she, who is now an evangelical Nazarene, asked me if I had ever read about the Catholic beliefs. She declared, "those people are evil!" She meant it, too. She went on to tell me just how evil Catholics are. I sat staring at her in open mouthed astonishment. When she was finished her diatribe, I reminded her that we were raised Catholic and our mother was still Catholic. "Are you trying to tell me Mom is evil?" I asked in total disbelief. (my mother was a damned good woman and a better Christian than anyone else I've ever known).
The look on my sister's face was amazing. The expression said, "Oh! I forgot about that!" Yes, folks, this graduate of Catholic parochial school FORGOT she was Catholic for all of her young life.
Who needs camps? The churches are doing a bangup job of brainwashing the masses. That's why they're so adamant about getting the young people into the churches. Just as Hitler and Stalin knew, if you can start the brainwashing early enough, it will hold throughout a person's life.
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Posted by: Melvin on Jun 12, 2006 8:14 PM
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Perhaps the rest of the world should just lock out the USA.
Sorry guys ; you are just an embarrasment to civilization.
Is there anyone big enough over there to give the country a big shake? Wake up!
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» RE: THE SECOND COMING
Posted by: Aussie Kim
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Posted by: talkville on Jun 12, 2006 9:16 PM
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Posted by: DavidTbone on Jun 12, 2006 10:11 PM
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These posts all convey a hostility in one way or another about religious beliefs. As a Christian I am horrified by the Right Wing use of the Bible to condemn gays, or anybody else whose sin differs from the Right Wing's. Their neglect of the poor and the sick, and their hypocrasy of calling themselves Pro-Life while they cheer the perversions of GITMO and Abu Ghraib is spiritually sickening. But they soothe their spirits through the materialistic therapy WalMart and Target offer them.
When I attend meetings or attempt to share ideas online I am barraged by fellow progressives who make hateful attacks on a religion that I am apart of. People, you are not going to run me away from this fight with your elitist satire of Christianity and all who follow. The Civil Rights movement began in church, while social and labor movements were creating fascism in Russia and Eastern Europe. Any good ideology can become corrupt for wanting of power.
While thousands of innocents are being slaughtered, we have the luxury of taking the bait again and again over religious bickering. You know, it wouldnt take somebody well versed in the Bible to challenge the Repuke definition of morality. Week in and out I hear Bill Maher and others ridicule something I believe in with all my being. A belief that the creator wants us all to love one another, and to treat those who are poor, sick, elderly, or persecuted with dignity and respect. Im sorry that people have distorted the words of Christ, that is something that has made me an outcast at times within my own family. I dont apologize for being Christian, nor do I apologize for the compassion and mercy that He speaks of.
People who believe in inclusion, should offer a little tolerance to people of Christian faith. If you ever want to win an election you are going to have to reach out, that's just mathematics.
The root of our moral crisis is this market place, dog-eat-dog way of life. Me First. Look out for #1. Until we as progressives show people that we dont have to live that immoral lifestyle, the definiton of morality will stand uncontested and we will continue our school yard name calling. So in the meantime I promise I will never judge any of you for your religious beliefs, try to stop insulting me for mine. Its just another form of self-righteous condemnation of others.
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» RE: Blessed are the Peacemakers
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Blessed are the Peacemakers
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Blessed are the Peacemakers
Posted by: RosieRivetor
» RE: Blessed are the Peacemakers
Posted by: DavidTbone
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Posted by: Aussie Kim on Jun 12, 2006 10:21 PM
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I do LOVE the way the fundy loonies in the US condemn other people and other countries for being obsessive, for brain-washing children, for being fundamentalists who will stop at nothing, etc, etc, and yet it's ok for them to do EXACTLY THE SAME THING!
USSA - PLEASE build a big wall around yourselves and don't come out.
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Posted by: Aureantes on Jun 13, 2006 12:04 AM
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Follow Christ if that's the teacher you believe in, but don't assume that "Christianity for everyone" will save the world. It certainly hasn't worked too well in history so far, especially with all the schism and fractures and holy wars. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Communism and Capitalism have all tried the same thing in their turn, and it's never been a particularly well-handled project, to try to enforce uniformity of belief/worship/practice. Just look up Aldous Huxley or Eric Hoffer on that matter -- it's a human drive, but one of the least rational or defensible ones still remaining in us.
NO absolute "religion" (including anti-religion) will ever work for all individuals. Unless people come (or return, or renew) of themselves to a spiritual path that they feel is theirs--regardless of what others believe for themselves--it cannot be authentic, and the attempts of ideological mass entities to claim all minds/souls to themselves are fated to result in tragedy.
To use the Catholic jargon, I believe that aggressive proselytizing is a mortal sin. And I see little difference between one major religion and another within the article above, except that the American Christianists haven't been given weapons yet. They'll learn to use them in the U.S. military, anticipatedly under the auspices of the anointed successor(s) to their present Commander-in-Chief. See the advantages of having your religion already sponsored as nationalistic?
(More at my blog)
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Posted by: mizpearl on Jun 13, 2006 11:18 AM
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All Christians are not bad, or even most of them. These are just the only ones you hear about, because it makes good copy.
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Posted by: finefair on Jun 13, 2006 9:26 PM
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Questionable medieval records suggest children go on a crusade to liberate the Holy Land but get sold into slavery instead.
As medieval knights couldn't seem to conquer and keep the Holy Land, in 1212 a precocious youngster from France named Stephen of Cloyes decided that maybe children could. Hey, if full-grown men with armor and swords couldn't do it, who better to dispatch the infidel Turks from Jerusalem than a rabble of defenseless, runny-nosed brats? Stephen managed to convince 25,000, or maybe 30,000, "of whom none were more than twelve years of age", to go with him. They were supposed to march to the Mediterranean, it was supposed to part for them, and they were supposed to walk into the Holy Land like they owned the place. Did 30,000 French children and German - Alberic, historian Peter Raedts suggests, appears to have blended them together. really think that they could take Jerusalem by storm, only to get tragic and hilarious comeuppance? Certainly not. It's too bad, really: we love to hear about the suffering of upright, snotty children just as much as anybody else.
You can imagine their chagrin when they arrived to the rolling waves of the Mediterranean, which was not parting for anybody. One envisions thirty thousand children crying and throwing tantrums on the beach.
Into this melancholy scene, chronicler Alberic of Troisfontaines recounts, arrived wealthy merchants Hugo Ferreus and William Porcus, who beneficently offered free passage to the Crusaders. They got seven boats together, crammed them to the rafters with children, and everyone was off. After the boats disappeared from sight, nobody heard from them for eighteen long years, at which point one of the kids returned with a sorry tale:
Two ships were supposedly wrecked off the coast of Sardinia, killing everyone aboard. Not long afterwards the remaining five ships landed east of Algiers and their human cargo promptly sold into slavery to the infidels. "Was it for this," they asked, "that we have taken the Cross and enlisted in the army of Christ? Is it thus the soldiers of the holy cause are rewarded?" Looks that way. As a final piece of christian propaganda,
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Posted by: Urstrly on Jun 14, 2006 6:19 AM
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Posted by: DavidTbone on Jun 14, 2006 7:36 AM
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It permeates society. Terrorists, mexicans, people driving too slow in the fast lane, liberals, 9/11 widows.... so much to be angry about.
With all of the horror going on in our world, where did we find time for hating all of these Mexicans, all of the sudden? Whether they like it or not, the Children's Army is going to have to be bilingual.
A majority of church people have been lead away by the stranger. They no longer heed the voice of the Shepherd.
The greatest threat to Christianity is is christians. At some point it may be too late to look back.
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Posted by: JDHorn on Jun 14, 2006 9:30 AM
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I'm not about to waste time peruading others they on a blind road that will only end in oblivion that Audie Murphy and Jim Morrison called, "the big sleep."
I've "cancelled my subscription to the resurrection." What you do, is up to you!
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Posted by: Kym525 on Jun 14, 2006 10:28 AM
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However, I don't sit and whine about articles like this. I don't pitch a tizzy fit and try to come off as a 'poor beleagered and persecuted Christian', especially because I have friends who practice non-traditional beliefs such as Wicca and Buddhism and I've seen firsthand the kind of hate and intolerance THEY go through - from having their cars vandalized because they have a pentacle sticker on the bumper, to their kids being singled out at school because their parents don't attend megachurches like Saddleback or The Rock.
Articles like this remind me that as a Christian, I and my fellow Christians have a LONG way to go to practice what we preach. Articles like this should remind all of us that we should be wresting the healing nd compassionate gospel of Jesus from zealots and hatemongers who are currupting his word for their own egotistical ends.
If you really want to do something, how about the next time the Klan has a rally and tries to use God's Word as their rallying cry for racial hatred, how about you get in their faces and tell them they're NOT CHRISTIANS! Or going into urban neighborhoods to bring food or volunteer as a tutor. How about working the Shanti Project or other AIDS-related organizations to bring hope and comfort to those stricken with HIV/AIDS?
Can you do THAT rather than complain about being singled out for your faith?
Peace...
Kym
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» RE: A Gnostic Christian Reaction
Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» An "almost" Gnostic but still ignorant Christian Reaction
Posted by: popsicle67
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Posted by: Melvin on Jun 14, 2006 6:27 PM
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Says it all does it not? Off the wall religious evangelical/born again/do it by the "book" idiots will be the death of too many innocent people.No different to the Taliban.
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» RE: When will they never learn
Posted by: robmikejas
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Posted by: cpatton on Jun 15, 2006 8:18 AM
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The problem is that this is not what Jesus taught. He told Pilate that His Kingdom was not of this world or age or His servants would fight! (John 18:36-37) Yeshua is King of Israel and King of the kings of the nations, but He has not returned to claim His crowns. He came the first time to deal with individual sins according to one's faith. He comes again soon to deal with the societal sins by overturning the god of this age, Satan, and destroying the babylonish political states that rule with oppression and war with deceit in fulfillment of the Destroyer's desires.
Woe to those who teach children to sin so abominably as to war! Judgment will probably come sooner than later. For more articles along this line of reasoning go to: http://www.apocalypse2008-2015.com/articles_index.html and particluarly to "The God of Israel Loves Arabs and All Peoples" at: http://www.apocalypse2008-2015.com/God_Loves_Arabs.html.
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Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Jun 17, 2006 2:57 AM
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» All religion is salesmanship
Posted by: popsicle67
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Posted by: RhodesVan3000 on Jun 17, 2006 10:50 AM
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They are the Boy Scouts!
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Posted by: apple pie on Jun 17, 2006 3:10 PM
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How come these people can get away with this as long as they call themselves Christians but when the Panthers tried it in Oakland they were all slaughtered or sent to the the gulag permanently?
The cops should start doing their job rather than just collecting paychecks and sitting on their butts on the freeway waiting for a Volvo with California plates to go by.
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Posted by: popsicle67 on Jun 17, 2006 11:14 PM
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Why do we still have these parochial wastes of skin around?
I mean there is freedom of speech but does that not stop when speech turns hurtful. When did religion turn into this fight for survival anyhow. Nobody has a belief that has enough facts to back it up anyhow so they all fight over who has more faith and whose invisible man has the bigger belt buckle or whatever. It's all a bunch of damn nonsense but up until a few years ago they were pretty inoccuous. I think the problem may stem from too many preachers trying to fleece a smaller and smaller flock, just like lawyers getting to be too dense for the population. It takes a lot less work to sell satan to dimwits then get them to pay for protection than to find a real job. Hell I think I'll start a religious cult and retire.
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