Whether they be still in the temple, the people signing soldiers and students up for high interest credit cards and short-term loans, mortage bankers kicking people out of their homes and farms, or the international banking cartels manipulating loans/credit/interest to poor countries. Oh yeah, he would also remove the private bankers who control the private banking systems (money supply, interest rates, etc) in the USA and all major countries......

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Billy is right about the crass commercialization of Christmas in a image conscious and materialistic world; but too bad Christianity only teaches a peace seen through the lens of its own philosophy of the world. Nevertheless, America needs crusaders against the corporate occupation of America, no matter what form they take.

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He taught us to 'store up our riches in heaven', 'sell all you have and give to the poor' and agreed with John Lennon (or vice-versa) when he said 'you don't take nuthin' with you but your soul'. Jebus wouldn't want to strongarm anyone into using his name at the register (the old 'Merry Christmas' vs 'Happy Holidays controversy). His words are constantly twisted by those with an agenda, and sometimes it seems they are deliberately misquoted and taken out of context. I'm sure He weeps to see His Message co-opted to coerce, consume, control and corporatize.

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What people need to know is that the worst kind of blasphemy is of the kind where the name of Jesus Christ is tied into the atrocities that are being committed by these so-called "Christians" against the men, women and little children of Iraq. I get the feeling that most of the people who identify themselves as being part of the "Religious Right" have never even read the words of the Sermon on the Mount:

Blessed are the peacemakers
For they shall be called, "sons of God"

Have they read those words? Do they understand what Christ was talking about? Do they know what He means? Here is something they need to know:

Christ is about love; not hate.
Christ is about giving; not greed.
Christ is about peace; not war.
Christ is about us; not me.

Honestly, given all you know about Jesus of Nazereth, ask yourselves the following question:

What form of government would be the most in-tune with His teachings: The Reagan Revolution or the New Deal?

Kind of a no-brainer, huh?

Pray for peace....

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
The Rant" by Tom Degan

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I hate the excesses of Christmas too.

But now that we've shipped most of our economy overseas, pretty much all we have left are big-box stores and malls. What would be the economic impact of de-commercializing Christmas?

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CounterCorp, organizers of the annual Anti-Corporate Film Festival, is co-presenting the theatrical release of What Would Jesus Buy? in San Francisco this weekend, beginning on Friday, Nov. 11 at the Lumiere Theater on California and Polk Streets.

The Rev. Billy will be attending the Saturday screenings of the film and will be participating in a question & answer session following both shows (7:00pm and 9:00pm). For more information, visit www.countercorp.org.

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Barbie, it is still selling and Americans are addicted to buying it.
Psychologists say we do the things we do (and buy) out of unmet needs. They also define our needs as food, clothing, shelter and love.
So, the solution to our over consumptive society would be to teach people (starting at a very young age) to recognize the difference between wants and needs and how advertisers and pushers (including street prophets) appeal to our unmet needs.
Over consumption, whether it is in food, drugs, alcohol, bigger houses, bigger cars, the latest gizmos and gadgets comes from a hunger (lack of approval for ones self or from others) to love and be loved.
John Lennon, Jesus, Ghandi, Aphrodite and the hippies of my youth were right, all we need is love, everthing else flows from that.
Perhaps, then, it is not economics we need to teach but rather to do a better job of defining what love and its opposite is.

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You have hit the nail on the head. Which reminds me that as a carpenter Jesus would have gotten his hands dirty - if a gift be needed - by making such from gopher wood.
New Deal? In the sprit of the holidays you can download this for your FDR collection: http://tinyurl.com/22lkj5
I hope it works. cheers, Rip Tragle

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While it's hard when one has children not to bow to the intense advertising directed at kids driving their desires, we have for a long time cut back on "gifts" trying to make the holiday more meaningful.

The corporate drive for profits has brought us back to the issue that seemed to have started the Christian movement in the first place..GREED! I almost expect to see toy ad's in the Sunday handout at Church.

We have come full circle!

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Good you see how well your message is coming across. Proud to know you.
Q's Mom

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What would Jesus yearly income be compared to the hypocritical religious leadership with personal income over a million $$$$$$$ a year? Money from poor peoples charity who have sent their last $10:- to them!
Talk about it!
From a not born again Christian!

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When I look around me, at the people I know, it's women who set the tone for Christmas for their families. They're the ones who send the cards, they're the ones who plan the food orgy, they're the ones who plan and do the shopping. If all the men you know stepped back and did nothing for Xmas this year, what would your Xmas look like? Now if all the women you know stepped back and did nothing for Xmas this year, what would your Xmas look like? There is a kernel of truth to the stereotype of the guy rushing around on the 24th, fulfilling his shopping obligations.

So it's women (generally, and in my world, the qualifier is unnecessary) that decide the level of commercialization. But not all women. All women are not the same - I also notice varying levels of interest in the materialistic aspects of Christmas. The women that I know that are most into creating this huge memorable gift-giving extravaganza, who see Xmas as such an important holiday, with all the shopping and decorating, are the traditional, family-oriented ones, in other words, good Christian women fulfilling their assigned role as care-givers and nurturers.

Frequently, I see an association being made, that the religious concentrate on spiritual concerns and the material takes a back seat, and that the non-religious, not having a God, must then necessarily be materialistic and worship the almighty dollar. My observations say this is a false dichotomy. There isn't an army of non-Christians driving this excessive consumerism.

So really, this is a Christian problem. Given the high level of religiosity in the US, and the dominance of Christianity, it's pretty clear that this isn't a matter of non-Christians hijacking the true meaning of Christmas - they just don't have the numbers to have this kind of influence. It's a matter of Christians mangling or misinterpreting their own holiday.

So when Durkee, Reverend Billy's wife, says things like "With Christians half of the work is already done," . . . "They are activists. They have a value system. They know their actions have repercussions", that shows an ignorance, or a denial, of the nature of the problem.

Personally, I hate Christmas, precisely because of the pressure and obligations foisted upon me, as a woman and mother, by the Christians around me. Even if the present-buying was removed, and Christmas was, as Talen says, ". . . a time to connect with family and friends and remember what matters most", well, guess who would be doing all the get-together work, the food shopping, inviting, planning, cooking and cleaning?

So to have these people come preaching at me in a public place, implying that my very presence in a mall means that I'm an excessive consumerist, even though I actually do my damnest to cut back as much as I possibly can, when Talen and Co. could focus their energies on the actual offenders by concentrating on churches rather than malls, well, bugger off, man.

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1. Michael Moore's SICKO
2. Progressive Books
3. Silver and tirquoise bracelets handmade by Native American Indians
4. Donations to truly progressive groups, Greenpeace, EarthFirst! PETA,Planned Parenthood, Alternative news web sites
5. Solar Panels
6. Donations to Cindy Sheehan, Barbara Boxer, Kucinich
7. Food for foodbanks.

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Congrats to Rev Talen for taking a stand and acting on it. I have a few suggestions for next year's holiday giving season from my first self-help book, Serious Survival: Skills for Single Parents
1. Shop garage sales all year. I'm amazed at the new stuff I find at dirt cheap prices. Sometimes the seller didn't like Aunt Lizzie's taste. Sometimes she didn't like Aunt Lizzie. I don't care.
2. Buy labels the kids will love and you can't afford. Look for the flaw. If it's excess wear, leave it there. Sometimes, it's a missing button or a torn seam. No problem.
3. Buy holiday fruit & veggies at the flea market. Wash thoroughly.
4. Any clothing that is rejected or not used, resale at your own garage sale or the best local resale shop. You will soon learn where that is. Check their 75% off rack, too.
5. Buy toys, clothing, and pretty much everything off season. If money's a problem, wait until it's 75% or more off. Stores such as Old Navy clear those shelves when they need to change seasons. I'm there watching and waiting.
Every year around Thanksgiving I unpack what I've accumulated and find I usually have enough for Christmas giving and usually enough for Toys for Tots giving, too. If this all sounds like common sense, it is. Merry Christmas!

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Although gambling is not explicitly forbidden in the New Testament, it does prey upon one’s desire for worldly riches. This desire for wealth is contrary to the spirit of the New Testament.

Jesus taught the multitudes to seek the eternal treasures in heaven rather than pursue temporary, earthly gain. He insisted upon the renunciation of earthly possessions and family ties and duties. (Matthew 6:19-21, 6:24-34, 8:21-22, 10:34-39, 19:20-21,29; Luke 9:57-62, 12:51-53, 14:25-26,33; James 5:1-3)

Jesus had no interest in disputes over money and property. (Luke 12:13-14) He taught that life is meant for more than the accumulation of material goods. He condemned those who lay up treasures for themselves, but are not rich towards God. (Luke 12:15-21) In his parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus expressed concern for materialistic persons (Luke 16:19-31).

Jesus taught that it is hard for those attached to earthly riches to enter the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:16-24; Mark 10:17-23; Luke 18:18-25) His apostles lead lives of voluntary poverty; sharing their possessions with one another. Those who did not do so were condemned. (Acts 2:44, 5:1-11)

"He who loves his life will lose it," taught Jesus, "and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life...For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" (Matthew 16:26; Mark 8:36; Luke 9:25; John 12:25)

In Paul’s words:

"Piety with contentment is great gain indeed; for we brought nothing into the world and, obviously, we can carry nothing out. When we have food and clothing, we shall be content with these. Those who are eager to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into numerous thoughtless and hurtful cravings that plunge people into destruction and ruin. "For the love of money is the root of all evil. In striving for it, some have wandered away from the faith...But you, O man of God, shun these things and go after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness." (I Timothy 6:6-11)

Gambling preys upon those who can least afford it—the people of lower income. The National Commission of Gambling estimated in 1983 that there were over a million compulsive gamblers nationwide. The Commission predicted that as gambling gradually becomes legal across the country, this figure will eventually reach three million.

The first treatment center for compulsive gamblers was built outside Baltimore, Maryland, in 1982. Compulsive gamblers often run into enormous financial difficulties—borrowing or even stealing from others, including their own families.

Heavy debt becomes a hard fact of life for compulsive gamblers. They sleep poorly, and become indifferent towards eating and affection. Tense and irritable, they often drink, and may even consider suicide.

Since the advent of legalized gambling, per capita crime in the Atlantic City area has tripled. A police check of records at different casinos there wound over one million dollars loaned to 25 underworld figures.

One survey of police enforcement of gambling laws found that 80 percent of the police believe profits from illegal gambling are used to finance other illegal activities, such as loan-sharking. In half of the cities surveyed, local independent criminal organizations were said to control gambling operations.

Conservative Protestants have traditionally opposed gambling. The Puritans of Massachusetts enacted America’s first law against gambling in 1638. In 1682, the Quakers in Pennsylvania passed their own law against gambling and "such like enticing, vain, and evil sports and games." During the period from 1830 to 1860, lotteries were banned across America. By 1908, nearly every state in the nation had banned horse racing.

Again: would Jesus condone gambling?

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What would Jesus EAT? Certainly not McDonald's, KFC, Burger King, etc...

Jesus would probably be a vegan in our modern times. I don't think Jesus would be out in the world slitting the throats of sentient beings for a tasty bite.

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would buy cisco routers and switches, ibm servers, and ibm sans with fiber cards.

preferably, all with the minimal hardware so he could check e-bay and craig's list for the rest of the drives and cards etc.

that's what i did for a 1k user base across our WAN.

wow, that makes me...jesus. ok, jesus like at any rate. =p

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It should be mentioned how much the Bible and also the Koran talk about the baseness of the "money lenders." What was true 2000 years ago is still true today. That is, worse then the excesses of materiality and acquiring "too much" is the toll that debt takes on so many. In America, it is often credit card debt at 24% and higher. Bills and more bills that can never be paid off. The next thing, this produces the horrible condition where people are more and more stressed out over more and more bills they cannot pay. The average American family now has close to $10,000 in Credit Card Debt. Is this insane or what? Finally, Jesus was not against a marketplace where people could acquire the necessities of life at a fair price. Such is the nature of survival and society. But, clearly Jesus was against the "money lenders." Those are the ones he threw out of the temple. Today, they are the bankers and the credit card companies. Jesus could see what debt did to people and families. Interestingly, money lending was forbidden in early Christianity but later ressurected as "OK." Today, people can even use credit cards to "contribute at Church." Nothing much has changed in 2000 years has it? The scum trying to make a buck off the suckering of others are part and parcel of American society and the American way of life.

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A SUPERBULLDOZER to crush the rightwing "religious" fundies and to crush governments in Washington and all over the world selling out and/or oppressing their constituents !

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So good to hear of the heroic work by the (Rev) Billy and to read your comments on the blog.
Some brief history about the celebration. The time around the winter Solstice was a time of celebration and gift giving among the ancients long before the Christian era.
Much of the New testament was written to persuade Judaism to adopt a new center with the Second Temple having been destroyed and the
futility of hope of rebuilding and recovery. Included in that persuasive attempt were the
stories of miracles as well as Jesus' heroism.
Jesus' alleged quotations from Isaiah added to
the geneology of the Book of Kings indeed convinced people Jesus was of royal blood. Then there is the remarkable appeal at the beginning of John using Greek logic.


At this point I insert a copy of paragraph from Encyclopedia Britannica, courtesy of DavidPadfirld. (Should I Celebrate Christmas ?) padfield.com

""When did men first start observing this special day?

To answer this question, we have to go outside the New Testament. Historians tell us it was nearly three centuries after the death of Christ before a day was set

aside for a special observance for His birth. "Christmas was for the first time celebrated in Rome in 354, in Constantinople in 379, and in Antioch in 388."

(Commentary on the Gospel of Luke, Norval Geldenhuys, p. 102). A well known preacher during this time mentioned the late origin of Christmas. "Chrysostom, in a Christmas sermon, A.D. 386, says, 'It is not ten years since this day was clearly known to us...'" (Unger Bible Dictionary, p. 196). "Christmas was not among
the earliest festivals of the church, and before the fifth century there was no general consensus of opinion as to when it should come in the calendar, whether January 6th, March 25th, or December 25th." (Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 5, p. 641)
" ""
In the Catholic church there was some division about the place of Christmas in the ritual. I would comment that the ritual was for those who already had passed. Easter was the great holy day of death and resurrection. As time went on, after the Protestant reformation, principal sects banned the celebration altogether, considering it as idolatry. But opposed to that were the continuing folk customs and initiation of the Santa Claus stories. Christmas was the time
when the English landowners allowed the tenants into the great manor houses and raise commotion for a day or week or so.

More than any other factor it was Charles Dickens that poplarised Christmas with the story of Scrooge and tiny Tim. Among my family and immigrant friends the custom was to make things by hand as gifts, such as cards, carvings, crafts. Where I live I have seen wonderful quilts that had been given as gifts, now preserved in historical museums.

That might be something to look into and help answer the question, 'What would Jesus give?'

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Christmas is for chumps.

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about the same shit that comes along at this time every year,this time the article is written by someone new as though something new was discovered!...it isn't new its older than I, thing is its something that no one will do anything about,I mean where would you start? To me its a joke! I gave up religions and gods years ago,then I look at the most pius and they do nothing,and what would jesus buy? well that depends,if he pops in out from 2000+/- years ago he'd probably go mad! Isn't there something more productive to write and comment on?

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Downloaded from:
http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews/?id=324&article=2
21 Nov 2007
Parenting Beyond Belief: Winter Celebrations in a Secular Family

By JANE WYNNE WILLSON
For HumanistNetworkNews.org
Nov. 21, 2007

"Do you celebrate Christmas?"

...[A]ll the ways we celebrate 'the festive season' predate Christianity by hundreds
of years. In fact, rather than humanists stealing a Christian festival, the exact
reverse is nearer the truth. For Christians to accuse us of hypocrisy is the height of
impertinence.

From the plum pudding to the evergreen tree, from the turkey (or, earlier, the
goose) to the pantomime, it is hard to think of a "Christmas" custom that does not
find its roots in paganism. Just as re-birth has been celebrated in Spring since time
immemorial, so a celebration in the depths of Winter, at the time of the shortest
day when the sun appears to stand still in the sky, is a natural instinct.

It is a desire shared by those of different religious faiths and none. Christmas, like
Easter, has quite simply been hijacked by the Christian church.

Even more interesting to me than these ancient symbolic customs, which are still
practiced usually quite unwittingly today, are the so-called "Nativity" stories that
reappear in mythology all over the world. The Virgin Birth, the Star of Bethlehem,
the Three Kings, the Stable, the Shepherds and the Massacre of the Innocents, are
by no means unique to the Christian version of the story. Much scholarly work has
been done on these traditions and, in many instances, the similarities are
remarkable.

So we humanists must certainly not apologize for sharing in the winter celebration
widely known as Christmas. We can exchange gifts and secular cards, enjoy good
food and wine and, if we are lucky enough (like I am) to have family and friends
whose company we enjoy, then we can have a happy few days together.

If Christians have a dig at us or, even worse, if they blame us for "taking the Christ
out of Christmas," as they do—well, we do our best! We tend to refer to "the
festive season" and prefer "Season’s Greetings" in the cards that we send.

...
One extraordinarily irritating reaction to humanists who celebrate the festive
season in a secular way is to blame us for the materialism that has crept into much
of what goes on in the Western world in December.

.....

....

....

So, fellow humanists, Happy Winter Solstice! Happy Brumalia! and Happy Winter
Festival!


A lifelong agnostic, Jane Wynne Willson became involved in the humanist
movement in the U.K. when her oldest child met religion head-on at a state
primary school. Since then she has been active at local, national and international
levels, serving as co-president of the London-based International Humanist and
Ethical Union and vice-president of the British Humanist Association, and author
of Parenting Without God, New Arrivals, Sharing the Future, and Funerals
Without God. A retired special needs teacher with four children and ten
grandchildren, Jane has a deep interest in bringing up children happily with a
strong basis for morality but no religion.

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Religion is caused by any one or more of about half a dozen mental illnesses.
The truth about religion can be found in these books:

"The Neuropsychological bases of god beliefs" Dr. Michael A. Persinger MD,
psychiatrist 1987 "Religious people are just like my temporal lobe patients"

"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind" Julian
Jaynes Professor, Harvard University 1976 "Religious people are just like
schizophrenic patients"

"The Psychiatric Interview in Clinical Practice" Roger A. MacKinnon, M.D.,
Robert Michels, M.D. W. B. Saunders Co. 1971 "Religiosity is a common
symptom [of] schizophrenic patients"

"The God delusion" by Richard Dawkins. "Religion is caused by a kind of
computer virus that infects the living computer, the human brain."

"The Science of Good and Evil" by Michael Shermer, 2004 "Morality and Ethics
are now in the jurisdiction of Science and greatly improved thereby."

Many books in the new science called "Sociobiology": Morals and ethics are
instinctive and they evolved.

"God: The Failed Hypothesis" byVictor Stenger Scientific proof that god does
not exist.

"The God Part of the Brain" by Matthew Alper 1996. "The USA is anomolusly
religious because many early founder groups were religiously insane and fleeing
prosecution in Europe. Religion is a genetic disorder."

"The Accidental Mind" by David J. Linden, 2007 Belknap Press of Harvard
University Press. Religion is caused by the extreme klugeyness of the "designed"
by evolution brain. In particular, the narrative creation system cannot be turned
off. It generates false narratives that are believed by the generating person. This is
seen in experiments done in the laboratory. This book has the best explanation of
resistance to evolution: "There has also been an assumption that if one accepts the
idea that life developed without divine intervention, it necessarily follows that all
aspects of religious thought must be rejected. Those who take this line of
argument to extremes argue that when religious thought is rejected moral and
social codes will degenerate and "the law of the jungle" will be all that is left. It is
imagined by religious fundamentalists that those who do not share their particular
religious faith are incapable of leading moral lives." These suppositions are not
true many times over. Linden later mentions that the creationists [intelligent
design advocates] are exactly 180 degrees wrong rather than just a little wrong.
Being exactly wrong, they are unable to unlearn their error. See Sociobiology or
Sciobio.

"Origins of the Modern Mind" by Merlin Donald 1991 "So what did you expect
from a brain that is based on the Chimpanzee brain? Furthermore, the 4 Million
years it took to go from chimp brain to "human" brain is much too short for
Nature to get the bugs worked out."

"Manufacturing Belief" by Lewis Wolpert
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/05/15/lewis_wolpert/

"Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon", by Daniel Dennett
Let's do scientific research on religion and find out what causes it.

Other authors: Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens

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Christmas eve, 12 years ago, I was totally frazzled, 4 kids, all the food, shopping and wrapping. On top of all the stress, the x decided to take off to visit or party with friends...I knew how this story was going to go...I got in my car took off, the kids were with an older sibling, and asleep...I was a mess, crying, upset, hating the whole Christmas torture routine. I let my car drive me, I had know clue where I was going or why...I ended up in another town that I never go to, in a neighborhood that I had never seen, and there it was.....A older house was dark inside, but outside in the drive way were mass Christmas lights, surrounding
an object that really spoke to me, made me see the light, so to speak!!!A color television, was in the center blaring away....The words Merry Christmas, were also part of the decor, I drove home to my kids and felt much better...I realized what Christmas was about, and why my expectations were so unrealistic...We just don't watch television anymore.... I have actually learned to enjoy the season, make gifts, enjoy the lights, and stay away from the stressed out crazies, who are like I use to be...It really helps that we are no longer addicted to the TV....It's all about marketing, and capitalism...the rest is fluff..Merry marketing to all and to all a great profit!!!

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State and local governments should institute a tax on items that people purchase - it could be called a "sales tax" perhaps. As such, when "rich people" make purchases, a percentage of the value of their purchases could be collected and allocated to fund schools, parks, homeless shelters, etc. I would be interested to hear everyone's comments on this. If we actually had something like this in place, it seems like it might actually be a good thing if people bought more merchandise.

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Thousands of hits of Acid, MDA,DMT, Ex, and his own creation, Hemp, and distribute them to the fools of the material world, many of whom post on this site.

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Religious people should demand equal time for other supernatural creatures who have power over humans......angels, devils, etc. Why are they always ignored? Don't Progressives feel for the underdogs of the supernatural world as well.?? Hypocrites !!

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I've run across this same topic elsewhere, Truthdig, CommonDreams, in the last couple of days and have made some posts about it. Because the topic is important to me, I am reposting here, as I rather like this site, what I wrote on both of those sites.
Just some off the wall questions, but if jesus is an incarnation of god, then why would he (is god really a he?) celebrate his own supposed birthday? I mean, why attribute any sex to god? Also, if jesus is god, why would he be buying anything, uh, for himself? For who? His mom? Naw, she don’t count. His dad, uh, why would the big guy want a Christmas present? Oh, maybe the Holy Ghost, not sure what the relationship is to jesus, wants a new iPhone, naw, it don’t need anything. And why would jesus god need money? And would the money be US currency (right now it has been devalued, he maybe ought to use Euros?) Oh,gawd this is confusing. Okay, how about… oh, forget about it.

Oh yeah, if jesus was a carpenter, where are all the things he made? Wouldn’t his dad and mom keep them like we do for our kids? And if any of them could be found, wouldn’t they be holy relics? They might be even better than a shroud. Oh, what about his tools, wouldn’t they be holy artifacts? Anybody ever found holy tools? Sorry, again, it’s confusing.

Continued to next comment space due to length of comments.

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In reply to a criticism of the earnestness respect of my questions, the following was my response:
Actually I am serious and I will try to be as respectful as I can. I am always interested in my fellow humans’ beliefs as their beliefs very much controls the world. Now why would anything crafted by Jesus be important? Well it is claimed that Jesus is an incarnation of god. There are beliefs about god, that god is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, infinite, creator of all. If I’m wrong, I know you will correct me. Just as an FYI, I direct you to the easiest location of research these days, although it isn’t the last word by all means, Wikipedia and to the page on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism
I only send you there because I presume you are using the Old Testament scriptures on all things related to god. I don’t really care which version of the bible you use (but I’d be careful on such an important topic to be sure you have the absolutely correct version). But most people are too lazy to check stuff out, it’s called research, preferring to let other people do their work for them. Sorry, that’s the old professor in me talking as I too was a teacher for a long time.

Now if we can just use a little logic here, if as the bible says god is the divine being, then everything associated with god is holy, sacred. If something is sacred, then it is special and sacrosanct, that is, it is extremely inviolable and nothing can change. Now the nature of god is supposedly a trinity: the father, the son, the holy ghost. The son is who is called Jesus. I would think, logically, that the son has all the attributes of the father in this case of incarnation. So by extension, then, whatever god, or the son of god, creates (makes), is holy and sacrosanct. If Jesus is the human incarnation of god, that does not vitiate the “specialness” of anything, absolutely anything, he made, touched, ate, etc. If he is divine, then there is that specialness about him and ordinary rules of matter and substance do not apply, or does it? It would seem that those alive at the time of Jesus and in his vicinity would have recognized this specialness (except of course for the Romans). And that this specialness was not like any other specialness. Please correct me if I am wrong.

My point is that if we follow in our minds all the claims about god and Jesus’s relationship to god, then everything, absolutely everything Jesus did would have been holy. It is an ancient practice to venerate substantial articles, called holy relics. We have relics hundreds of hundreds of years old. Now it would also seem reasonable to expect, without being disrespectful, something created by Jesus, the carpenter, would have been saved somehow. Don’t you think? I am merely just asking, where is at least one? I would think, further, that anything god/Jesus made would be of a different class than Lot’s wife’s brassier, or Nero’s violin. And apparently the wooden cross was reused by the Romans and let decay somewhere in Calgary? But you do have a point about that cross. My arguments are not foolish and everything the Christian world believes in hinges on them.

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YOU ARE A HERETIC. We, the followers of the TRUE CHRIST will turn you over to the PAPISTS, and if they won't have you, the PROTESTANTS, to learn the true meaning of TORTURE ( Those Americans - torture with water???? are you kidding???) so you can recant your insult to the one true LOVING GOD and your anticipated thought crime of your insults against the PROPHET MUHAMMAD of the one true NON LOVING GOD - ALLAH, who by the way, is not a pet Teddy Bear, but can be the HUMAN who cheated you out of a dime at the 7-11. And since we, the Priestly Class, will not dirty our hands, we will turn you over to the GOVERNMENT ordained by us to be EXECUTED by burning.....donations of Firewood & $$$ gladly accepted. And if you don't donate, we will demand a TITHE. IF you don't, we will send our LESSER GODS, aka SATANand his minions to show you for eternity, what happens if you FUCK WITH THE RULES of the LOVING GOD. The LOVING GOD does have his limits. You humans would do better if you turned the other cheek, as I have taught. Actually, the PROPHET (not my Son!) MUHAMMAD laid down the rules of my Schizo NON LOVING side.......CHOP OFF THE HEAD of Humans who dare insult me, or my Teddy Bears !!!

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Oh my gawd, another nutjob has shown up. thekidde is another mindless idiot. They do crawl out of the woodwork with their machetes in hand. Grow up and get a life. Unless you are talking about gellero, if so, then I take it all back!

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Sheesh...........don't you guys know the definition of Parody / Lampoon / Sarcasm ?? If not, we will send you to your just reward in the afterlife burned to a crisp or without a head. And that goes for the Infidel Teddy Bear namers too !!!

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Whadda ya have in your veins, sugar-free Gatorade, Gellero? The Teddy Bear thang is stupid in this day and age of minds. Blind, indoctrinated zealots are relics.

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