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Ignore the Pundits: A Guide to Figuring Out Who Won the Debate

By Judd Legum, Huffington Post. Posted September 26, 2008.


Don't pay attention to the talking heads, here's how to decide who won the debate for yourself.
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There were 23 debates during the Democratic primary and part of my job on the Hillary campaign was to monitor the post-debate reaction in the media. I watched hundreds of self-described political experts instantly declare who won and who lost.

Here's what I learned: the pundits are full of it. They don't know any more than you do and many of them have a vested interest in tilting the scales one way or another. After the debate ends, if you want to know who won, turn off the TV. You can figure it out for yourself.

The first thing to understand is that the winner of the debate isn't the person who makes the best arguments. If it was, Al Gore would be finishing up his second term. The winner of the debate is the person who moves votes to their side. You can figure out who that will be by focusing on these three factors:

1. 30 seconds are more important than 90 minutes. Although tens of millions of people will watch the debate, most everyone will forget the bulk of it immediately. The lasting impression of the debate for most voters will be the two or three exchanges -- usually less than 15 seconds long -- that are replayed, discussed, and analyzed over and over again. More often than not, whoever gets the best of these moments wins the debate.

For example, in the Des Moines Register debate in mid-December, Obama was asked a pretty tough question: How he could rely on so many former Clinton advisers and still represent a break from the past? Hillary laughed and said, "I want to hear that!" Obama flashed a smile and shot back: "Hillary, I'm looking forward to you advising me as well." It was a pitch-perfect response and catnip for the media, which played the exchange repeatedly for days. Overall, Hillary turned in a very solid performance and demonstrated an impressive command of the issues. But it didn't matter. Obama had won the key 15 seconds and it gave him a critical boost just days before the Iowa caucus.

John Edwards was generally regarded as an excellent debater. So why was it that the debates never seemed to help him much in the polls? He never really did anything memorable. (Quick: name one line Edwards said in a primary debate.) His answers were always smooth, coherent and on message. It didn't do him any good.

Identify who got the better of two or three most memorable exchanges between Obama and McCain and you'll be a long way toward identifying the winner.

2. Mistakes matter, but only some of them. Probably the worst mistake in the Democratic primary debates was Hillary's famous non-answer to a question about drivers licenses for undocumented immigrants. But it wasn't a big mistake because people care deeply about the issue. (When is the last time you've heard driver's licenses mentioned on the campaign trail?) It was important because it fit into a pre-exisiting narrative about Hillary that had been developed by her opponents for some time. Namely, that Hillary is politically calculating and dishonest. Since it reinforced a pre-exisiting narrative it caused Hillary immense damage and sent the campaign into a tailspin from which it never fully recovered.

During the next debate in Nevada, Obama was asked a similar question about drivers licenses for illegal immigrants and gave a similarly meandering answer. Yet, he paid no political price. The reason is simple: no one believed at the time that Obama was dishonest or politically calculating. So a mistake that was debilitating for Hillary was a non-issue for Obama.

In this debate, a mistake on an economic issue will be more damaging to McCain because there is a pre-existing narrative that he isn't knowledgeable or engaged on the economy. Similarly, a mistake on foreign policy would be more damaging to Obama because there is a pre-existing narrative that he may not have the experience to be commander-in-chief.

3. It is a popularity contest. At the end of the day these candidates are trying to get voters to like them. As a result, in many instances, what the candidates say is far less important than how they say it.

During the spring and summer, Obama struggled to gain traction in debates because the delivery of his answers were perceived as detached and professorial. In other words, the things he was saying were smart but he wasn't making friends. In an August debate, Hillary won a lot of admirers when she said with a smile: "For fifteen years, I have stood up against the right-wing machine and I've come out stronger. So if you want a winner who knows how to take them on, I'm your girl!"

The person who is the most relaxed and getting some laughs is usually the winner.

The reason why much of the punditry that follows the debate is inaccurate or irrelevant is that many of the people involved are far more interested in shaping the outcome of the debate than reflecting it. It usually doesn't work, but most give it a shot anyway.

You can do a lot better by thinking for yourself.


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You're right.
Posted by: fanny666 on Sep 26, 2008 2:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everything you say is completely right. God help our democracy, everything you say is completely right.

Reagan says "There you go again" and the media goes wild. Who cares if he said it in the context of completely lying about his plans for Medicare. It was a clever, snappy soundbite.

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Gee, I thought we were supposed to think for ourselves instead of parrotting conventional wisdom at
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Sep 26, 2008 2:32 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the dumbest level to figure out who the mainstream media winner might be.

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Claim Victory
Posted by: Jeanne on Sep 26, 2008 3:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a lot like the Chinese accidentally releasing the details of their successful space launch. Except that it doesn't lift off until Saturday. That way, no matter what happened, the "outcome" is already on the record. Likewise, if you are McCain, you simply declare yourself the winner. That's what McCain's campaign has already done -- before the debate happens. Don't worry, tomorrow the network news will dutifully report your press release and no one will be the wiser.

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Both candidates serve corporations,
Posted by: lindat on Sep 26, 2008 3:41 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel, and Wall St. It's an illusion of choice.

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Let's get our own debates
Posted by: CUnknown on Sep 26, 2008 4:24 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go to www.thirdpartyticket.com and sign up for the moneybomb! It's a mass-donation day for all 3rd parties, and is critically important for our democracy. They are also setting up a 3rd party debate, that will be so cool. Maybe they'll even invite Obama and McCain.. ;)

Let's make this the beginning of the end of the 2-party duopoly, go to www.thirdpartyticket.com and sign up!

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» RE: Let's get our own debates Posted by: ranchero42
Listening to the first debate right now, it's a toss-up
Posted by: cthelyt on Sep 26, 2008 7:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain sounds more like a jerk than usual, but I'm sure that for the Silent Majority he'll hit the right hypodermic zones.

Obama successfully parried most, if not all, of McCain's attacks. His comments were intelligent and thoughtful, but remember how intelligent and thoughtful Kerry's and Dukakis's and Mondale's were in their own debates. It's going to come down to voters' gut feelings, and after the financial meltdown, who knows where those will go.

I don't think McCain really succeeded in casting Obama as young and inexperienced, but for the doubters out there, it may have appeared to them that he did nonetheless. He didn't convince me, at any rate, though I'm not supporting Obama anyway. I am in no way supporting McCain, so don't get me wrong.

Also, I wish that the third-party candidates were onstage widening the range of debate. It would have made for a much more interesting evening. Variety is not only the spice of life; it is essential to formulate the best solutions to the country's problems.

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Senator vs. John
Posted by: Romans1 on Sep 26, 2008 7:46 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain was respectful to call Obama Senator. Obama was disrespectful to call the Senator "John."

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» RE: Senator vs. John Posted by: freelyb
Thank Allah I am voting for Nader!
Posted by: disfasia on Sep 26, 2008 8:03 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a boring debate, first off. And I cannot believe Obama whined all week after McCain announced he would postpone his campaign to focus on the economy.

I think we should have a "cookoff" beetween the candidates. Let each come up with an economic solution to the financial crisis. No more talk--words are cheap and easy.

Personally, I found both candidates incredibly sollopsistic and Obama incredibly naive using terms like "take them out". What little respect he had left from me, no longer exists. This macho talk of war goes not very far at all with me, especially from someone who refers to other humans as possibly being "taken out". Also, Obama is incredibly uninformed about the terrain of these "wars" while, surprising, McCain does understand the actual logistics of this "war on terror" in Pakistan. Conversely, McCain does not understand, as Obama seems to, how isolated and reviled the USA has become since 2001.

What is sad is that Nader was not present. Not only would he have made this a memorable debate, he would have shown up both candiates as the charlattans they are.

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BETTER THAN I EXPECTED
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 26, 2008 8:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama is clearly informed and prepared to be the president. McCain was better than I expected. Drifted a little now and again but generally not a disaster. I'm not convinced that he's always honest and he clearly answers some questions in a way that he thinks will please the crowd. He said Obama "doesn't understabnd" several times. Obama is precise and detailed. I like that. McCain distanced himself from Bush. Too bad he hasn't done that in the last 8 years. The winner: I give an edge to Obama. Given the age & experience difference, he more than held his own. I think McCain was a little surprised. ANNA

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McCain won it, hands down.
Posted by: Blink on Sep 26, 2008 8:21 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Suit gets 2 points for showing up.

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Missing in action during Firday night's debate: the REAL John McCain
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Sep 26, 2008 9:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of the millions of Americans who watched Friday night's debate, I wonder how many knew that McCain, George W. and his daddy, Big George, have two things in common: (1) dishonorable military records and (2) neoconservative ideologies.

First their military service, in chronological order:

Near the end of WWII, while bombing Japanese-held Chichi Jima Island, Big George, a Navy Avenger aircraft commander, was hit by enemy ground fire. Rather than ditch the smoking fighter bomber, which was the recommended emergency procedure, Lt.j.g. Bush panicked and bailed out on his two-man flight crew before they could jump, causing them to die in the pilotless plane crash at sea.

During the Vietnam War, George W. bailed out of the Texas Air National Guard 30 months before his sworn duty tour ended and went AWOL.

Also during the Vietnam conflict, when POW McCain was no longer being tortured, he collaborated with his captors in return for hot coffee, cigarettes and other special favors by making radio broadcasts and giving interviews that were used by the North Vietnamese for propaganda purposes. Because of McCain's eagerness to appease his interrogators, they contemptuously nicknamed him "Songbird."

For shameful details about Bush 41 and 43's military service,
click on: King George.

For Songbird McCain's treasonous POW record,
click on: Vote Against McCain
[HOTTEST anti-McCain site on the Web]

To learn more about Songbird McCain, click on: Vietnam Vets Against John McCain.

Now for the cowardly threesomes's neocon ideology:

When Bush 41 was President Nixon's CIA chief, he formed the renegade conservative "Committee on Present Danger" -- predecessor of the rightwing extremist organization, "Project for a New American Century" (PNAC), founded years later by arch conservative Bill Kristol.

As president, Bush 41 fostered the imperialistic "New World Order" agenda that became a PNAC hallmark.

Formed in 1997, PNAC advocated the overthrow of Saddam Hussein and dominating the world with U.S. military power. Jeb Bush, surrogate for George W., was a PNAC founder. McCain later became a PNAC member.

Prior to joining the PNAC conspiracy, McCain was president of the "New Citizenship Project" (NCP). Formed in 1994, NCP became PNAC's chief fundraising arm.

In 1998, McCain co-sponsored the Iraq Liberation Act. Drafted by PNAC, it decreed "regime change" in Iraq to be U.S. policy.

In 2002, McCain was co-chair with Sen. Joe Lieberman of the White House-based Committee for the Liberation of Iraq (CLI), which was established by PNAC and did its bidding.

Finally, in 2004, McCain officially became a PNAC member by signing a letter from Kristol's organization ironically condemning Russian President Putin’s foreign policy for its return to the “rhetoric of militarism and empire.”

Given McCain's unbending rightwing ideology, it should come as no surprise that many of the old neocon guard have become foreign policy advisors in his 2008 presidential campaign, including the following prominent PNAC members: Richard Armitage, John Bolton, Steve Forbes, Robert Kagan, Bill Kristol, Daniel McKivergan, Randy Scheunemann, Gary Schmitt, James Woolsey and Robert Zollick.

If, in the near future, America plunges into the dustbin of failed democracies, assuming Songbird McCain wins in November, he and his neocon cowards in common, Bush 41 and 43, will be the primary culprits.

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Obama cleaned McGoo's Clock!
Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Sep 26, 2008 10:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama more than passed the "commander in chief" test; he was poised, unflappable, well-informed, forceful without being overly agressive, appropriately diplomatic, but strong in defense of his own positions. He came off as presidential in every way.

By contrast, McCain was rambling, arrogant ("Senator Obama simply doesn't understand. . ."), condescending (he never once made eye contact with Obama), not always on point (sometimes injecting non sequitors and irrelevancies into the mix that just seemed to come out of nowhere!) and failed even once to lay a glove on Obama concerning a single substantive issue. He resorted to repeating the same old tired stale talking points and slogans, constantly saying stuff like "I know how to get this done" but never giving us ANYTHING that would back up such claims. At times, his composure seemed on the brink of disintegration. Old, tired, liar.

By the end of the evening McCain came across like Elmer Fudd: "I'm a twue mavwick! Pwease vote for me!" Sheesh! I thought the guy was gonna claim to have known Ghenghis Khan at one point!

And BTW, McGoo; YOU are the one who doesn't understand the difference between strategy and tactics. . .major gaffe!

If this debate was supposed to be on McCain's strong turf (foreign policy) he better concede now and spare himself the embarrassment of the two additional clock-cleanings Obama will surely give him.

Obama exceeded my expectations and I am confident he won over a good chunk of the independent vote this evening.

On to November 4th and victory!

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You're probably right
Posted by: Rolomax on Sep 26, 2008 11:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The McCain campaign announced victory on a lot of website ads and on RightWing Radio long before the debate even started.

Most Republicans probably didn't even watch the debate.

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» RE: You're probably right Posted by: Lilly
» RE: You're probably right Posted by: Rolomax
Think for myself?
Posted by: LostInAmerica on Sep 26, 2008 11:44 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a true Republican ecstatic over how well the last 8 years have gone it's clear to me that John McCain won the debate handily. However, given that I've never had an original thought within a thousand miles of my head I eagerly look forward to listening to Fox News and my hero Rush Limbaugh tomorrow to tell me why he won.

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Let's get our own debates - www.thirdpartyticket.com
Posted by: CUnknown on Sep 27, 2008 11:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go to www.thirdpartyticket.com and sign up for the moneybomb! It's a mass-donation day for all 3rd party candidates and is critically important for our democracy. They are also setting up a 3rd party debate, wouldn't that be cool? Maybe they will also invite Obama and McCain.. ;)

Let's make this moneybomb a historic day that marks the beginning of the end of the 2-party duopoly. Go to www.thirdpartyticket.com and sign up!

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Your Money And Your Life
Posted by: jacksmith on Sep 27, 2008 11:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush, McCain can run. But they cant hide anymore.

What ever congress does to try and fix our stunning economic catastrophe needs to be done very carefully. Congress needs to take their time, and be sure of what they are doing. Whatever is done needs to be sharply focused at helping, and protecting the best interest of the ordinary Americans. In particular the vast American middle class. 700 billion dollars is a lot of the peoples money to spend to bail out a bunch of corrupt Bush loan sharks.

My fellow human beings, just as I warned you ahead of this catastrophic economic meltdown, I must now warn you that what is ahead has the potential to be even more catastrophic than what we are going through now. The worlds geopolitical landscape has been booby trapped by the Bush McCain administration and their republican allies in congress. These booby traps are poised to spring at any time.

Fortunately the Worlds Nations have been blessed with many excellent leaders (except the US) who have been careful, wise, strong, and self-restrained in dealing with the provocations, and antagonism's of the Bush, McCain administration.

Barack Obama and the democrats are your best hope now. Tell your family, friends, and everyone you know to support them as best you can, and vote for them like your life, and the lives of your loved ones depends on it. Because it does. You will not survive 4 more years of Bush McCain.

JACK SMITH - WORKING CLASS...

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Ignore The Pundits....et al
Posted by: BigElectricCat on Sep 27, 2008 5:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Don't pay attention to the talking heads"

Yeah, that's always good advice. I'd also extend it to you and this silly article. How your comments and recipe for declaring victory is any different than the MSM is a mystery to me.

Yes, if you are a Repug you'll try to shape it as a victory and likewise if you are a Democratic spokesperson. If you are a MSM scumbag pundit who is practicing the fake "I'm balanced" canard, you will judge by 30 second soundbites, popularity contest, gaffes that can be aired ad nauseum. In short, everything you describe in the article.

If someone is making voting decisions based on these televised debates, they are already too hopelessly far gone. If as you say, the point is who won extra votes, your analysis is as I point out, identical to the media response.

The more useful article might have explored the validity of the claims that such and such a debate actually did win or lose voters. For example, could it be that Obama won voters from Clinton because of her tepid denouncing of her vote giving war powers to Bush in a country with a majority disgusted by the Iraq occupation? How about one of the most ever played debate zingers of "You're no Jack Kennnedy" delivered on Dan Quayle? Did that stop Dukakis losing in a landslide?

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You are wrong
Posted by: rickiey on Sep 29, 2008 9:04 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The winner of the debate, is the person that I agree with, more of the time than their opponent.

Maybe I should be as shallow as the author of this article, but I don't give a damn about quick, witty responses.

I want to know what they plan on doing, and then I'll either agree or disagree with what they plan.

And if they are vague and don't let me know what they are planning? That means I don't trust them.

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