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Right-Wing Pathologies Revealed After Adkisson Shooting at Unitarian Church

By John Dolan, AlterNet. Posted July 29, 2008.


When Free Republic forum posters learned that the gunman was from their own demographic, out came the conservative madness.
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A classic drama full of hatred, ignorance and irony played out this week in the forum section of right-wing Web site Free Republic, as "Freepers" tried to make sense of a church shooting in Tennessee that killed two parishioners and wounded many others. The grotesque irony of the FR discussions is that, after early posters had indulged all their bigoted guesses about the identity of the killer, they found out the gunman was actually straight out of their own demographic: a 59-year-old white man named Jim Adkisson, who left a four-page letter ranting against liberals, was known by his acquaintances to hate "blacks, gays and anyone who was different from him," left a pile of books by O'Reilly, Savage and Hannity behind in his car, and even wore a red-white-and-blue shirt to his church killing spree.

It's morbidly fascinating to watch the FR threads as the posters wriggle and bluster to try to accommodate this most inconvenient truth. And if you have the stomach to read them, you can learn a lot (perhaps more than you'd like) about the pathology of the contemporary American Right. For myself -- and I realize this will be the most profound heresy to progressives committed to the populist line -- reading these posts is a timely slap in the face, a painful reminder that maybe, just maybe, heartland Americans aren't such wonderful people at all. What you see in these posts is the oldest, deepest and meanest strain in American culture: the Ulster America founded by violent sectarians who moved westward again and again, from Scotland to Northern Ireland and then to the southern United States, then again westward into the American continent, to find a place where they could hone their hair-trigger intolerance without fear of interference from warmer, more humorous people. But that's me, and I'm often accused of "cynicism," whatever that means. At any rate, I'll present a little background on the site and then discuss a few of the posts. Make of them what you will.

For those who want to do their own analyses before reading on, here are the Web addresses of the three FR threads discussing the Tennessee shootings, in the order they appeared:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/search?;s=tennessee%20church

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2052204/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2052590/posts

For those unfamiliar with online right-wing culture, Free Republic is a far-right Web site established in 1996. It soon found a huge, loyal audience among the right wing's most rabid, ignorant and openly fascistic voices -- or as FR calls them, "grassroots conservatives." Even other right-wing Web sites shun FR, and you'll often observe posters to these sites worrying, when online discussions become openly racist or fascistic, that they're becoming too much like "the Freepers," as FR's ranting posters proudly call themselves.

The same hatred of "liberals" that drove the Tennessee killer is on display, with unconscious irony, in the house advertisement appearing at the top of one of the forums on the church shooting. A bald eagle stands before an American flag, with the caption, "Driving liberals crazy and having fun doing it!"

The first posts reacting to the church shooting are smug gloats. Many posters were absolutely certain that the gunman would turn out to be a Muslim:

It appears that the identity of the gunman is being protected. ... (S)omething tells me this guy had a Quran in his pocket and a diaper on his head. Wonder what was inside the diaper?? The picture in the article showed both a white and a black person. So it couldn't be a black guy in a white church. If it were a white guy in a black church, they would be holding nothing back from the media. My best guess the shooter was probably a diaper wearing Islamic fanatic.
Other posters displayed a different sort of hatred, one that is consistently underestimated by liberal commentators: the weird, atavistic, violent hatred felt by American Protestants for churches they consider heretical. To read these posts is to be reminded of a fact we don't like to admit at all: America still clings to the culture of the mean, violent Ulster Protestants who populated the South and West. For Freepers like this, what's worth mentioning about the church shooting is not that two people were shot to death and many more wounded, but that it happened in a Unitarian Church -- and worse yet, while the children's choir was singing "Annie," a nonreligious song! A Freeper sums up his contempt in this post:
Three words: Unitarian Universalist Church
(Having said that, I still offer a prayer for all involved. Very sad, when you gotta be armed just to go to church.)
Note the broad-minded concession after the sneer at Unitarians; it's "sad" even when mere heretics are murdered. Another poster gets his compassion out of the way first so he can get to his real point, the worthlessness of Unitarians:
Prayers up for the victims.
That being said, the term "Church" is relative in the case of Unitarian Universalists ... and certainly nothing "Christian" about it.
Several Freepers are obsessed by the fact that children were singing "Annie" when the gunman opened fire. They're not music critics; their outrage is at the fact that a secular tune was being sung in a church at all. That interests them far more than the murders. "GOP Pachyderm" doesn't even mention the killings, so angry is he at the choice of song:
Kids were practicing a scene from "Annie"? Are you sure this was a church?
Yes, that's clearly the most important fact about this story. Another poster sneers, "I suppose for a UUC, Annie would be quite appropriate," while a poster calling himself "antiunion person" comes up with a classic bit of Freeper humor: "This guy must have really hated Annie to open fire like that."

The easy familiarity of the slurs -- "UUC" is apparently recognized slang, among Freepers, for "Unitarian Universalist Church" -- suggests that these people spend a great deal of time spitting on other denominations. One joke repeated several times on the three threads dealing with the story is that it's surprising that mere Unitarians were able to tackle the gunman. In fact, it seems the congregation behaved with great courage and alertness, before Adkisson could fire the several dozen shotgun shells he'd brought with them. But that, like everything else about the story, doesn't fit Freepers' picture of the world. Unitarians are liberals, and liberals are cowards. That's what they've been told, and evidence to the contrary just becomes a punch line.

Then, after the first few dozen posts, comes the biggest shock of all, the news that the killer was no Muslim but a white American straight out of a FR demographic profile. How are the Freepers going to handle that?

The simplest and most honest position is represented by a Freeper using the name "Weegee" who defends the gunman in grotesquely comical language. As "Weegee" sees it, Adkisson was simply expressing "a difference of opinion" -- enlightening those Unitarian sinners with a shotgun:
How is this a hate crime? ... (The gunman's) anger, from this excerpt, appears to have been with church leadership which taught acceptance and celebration of sinful activities. So it could be construed as a difference of opinion in religious doctrine.
This is the voice of Ulster America, the line that has been breeding true, unfortunately, for hundreds of years. Maybe it's time we faced that fact that many millions of our fellow Americans think like Weegee -- millions of little Ian Paisleys with a slightly different accent.

Another straightforward response favored by those reacting to the identification of the gunman is denial. He simply can't be a right-winger. It must be a plot to discredit conservatives:
The libs and the MSM (mainstream media) have salivated for years over the prospect of angry, white, christian, conservative terrorism against their pet immorality and perverted views of religion.
They will attempt to play this up as such as much as possible a such when the truth is, this was simply a diluded. [sic] depressed individual who snapped and became a murderer.
It has nothing to do with conservatism or traditional values, despite the upcoming best efforts of the MSM to the contrary.
Posters like these can barely keep up the pretext of regret for the killing of people who embrace "immorality and perverted views of religion" -- even while they're attempting to say that their Ulster-American ideology has "nothing to do" with the killings. One poster even waxes indignant at the "character assassination" directed at Adkisson:
He's NO conservative ... just a deluded lunatic sociopath. I don't recall the MSM targeting people with any other philosophy for outright character assassination!
And of course, there are those who jump straight to the pure liberal-conspiracy theory:
"This guy is no more a true constervative [sic] than Timothy McVey [sic] was. Conservatives don't commit acts of terrorism. I won't believe this until the killer's actual letter is released. It could be the sheriff is a liberal himself and is saying these things to smear conservatives. Could be a liberal disguised as a conservative in order to give conservatives a bad rap.
Which prompts this reply from a relatively sane Freeper: "As I understand it, Eastern Tennessee is just chalk [sic] full of Liberal Sheriffs." More to the point, most people would agree that McVeigh was a conservative -- a conservative terrorist, just like Jim Adkisson. In fact, perhaps if Bill Clinton had called out Rush Limbaugh when the Oklahoma City bomb went off, demanding that Limbaugh fly to the bomb site and help clear the wreckage with his own soft, manicured hands, perhaps this tide of hate could have been stopped before the proliferation of O'Reillys, Hannitys and Savages percolated down to the car trunk of a mean, stupid, white Tennessean. Maybe. Personally, cynic that I am, I doubt anything could have stopped this. This is bedrock America speaking, Ulster America. Maybe it's time we looked it in the face, instead of pretending that our compatriots are all just good-hearted folks who have been misled.

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See more stories tagged with: jim adkisson, free republic

John Dolan is an editor of The eXile. He is the author of, most recently, Pleasant Hell (Capricorn, 2005).

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Conservative Insanity
Posted by: vivachavez on Jul 29, 2008 1:15 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They never hold themselves responsible for their own behavior- it is always some liberal conspiracy to destroy them. Liberals are everywhere, hiding behind every corner, ready to pounce and convert white, God-fearing heterosexuals into gay muslim socialists.

Modern conservatism is the refuge of racists and religious bigots, who, rather than actually propose policies that would help the country, seem to delight in turning back the clock and ridiculing the very people and movements that made this country a better place.

And being from the heartland, I can personally attest to its backwardness and intolerance. It is not elitist to point out the dark side of human behavior.

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» RE: Conservative Insanity Posted by: revjmike
» RE: Conservative Insanity Posted by: DaBear
» Suddenly permissive on murder? Posted by: grailsnail
What Needs to be Done
Posted by: vivachavez on Jul 29, 2008 1:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is important to publicize the very hateful, overtly racist, and reliogiously bigoted comments of these right-wing fascists.

Free Republic is where the average conservative can let lose how they truly feel, not that they ever hold back to begin with.

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» RE: What Needs to be Done Posted by: marie.vorrath
» RE: What Needs to be Done Posted by: johng
Money for people with minds that hate
Posted by: doodahman on Jul 29, 2008 1:41 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, maybe Dolan's right-- these folks are just the fruit of bad seed and nothing is going to change them or make them able to get along with everyone else. So then what? Shoot 'em?

His anger, I understand. His implications, I reject. Cattle you judge by the herd or breed. People, you judge one at a time.

"But when you talk about destruction
Doncha know that you can count me OUT."

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» People are cattle Posted by: dudelette
Insightful and something every liberal should read
Posted by: pdxlinuxchix on Jul 29, 2008 2:02 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This was a great piece because it encourages liberals to do what some of us have been doing for a while now; take these folks seriously! Too often, we liberals comfort ourselves with the idea that those who talk about how we are subhuman and should not be suffered to live don't *really* mean it. They can't *actually* mean that because we don't think that way. If you believe this, if you hear the utterances of a Coulter or Savage or Limbaugh or one of their fans, put aside how YOU take it for a moment and assume that the person means it. I take Coulter at her words. She would like to see violence done to liberals until we are either eliminated or cowed into invisibility. I take Savage and Limbaugh at their words. I take their fans at their words that they mean everything they say. It is folly to do otherwise.

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I'd like to see the GUN TOTERS reply on this article.
Posted by: jwverez on Jul 29, 2008 2:08 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Despite the worst economy and the fact that America is far less safe than at any time in American history, it's tragic that there are too many gun toters who will gleefully give up their jobs and even homes just to cling to their guns and bibles. If the killer were liberal or Muslim, the media would have labelled him a terrorist and not a mere gunman. It's so sad that despite the fact that it was the conservatives who made a killer out of him by ruining his career with the policies of wars and outsourcing, he blames the liberals who actually tried to rescue him financially. When will this madness end?

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Scary wake-up call
Posted by: Blondinista on Jul 29, 2008 2:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While we more enlightened, progressive folk roll our eyes, shrug, and laugh at the venomous stupidity spewing forth from the mouths of people like Savage, O'Riley, and Coulter, we forget that there are rabid and hate-fueled fruitcakes out there taking them very seriously.

I hope this isn't the beginning of more violent acts against us.

Note to author: It's spelled "McVeigh."

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Perspective on Gun Control
Posted by: Nebris on Jul 29, 2008 2:20 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let this be a lesson to many my fellow progressives regarding their semi-suicidal insistence on disarming themselves. These fascist m***** f******s ain't giving up their guns and only the delusional think they can be disarmed without considerable bloodshed.

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» RE: Perspective on Gun Control Posted by: Balanchine
Some still think religion is a good thing...
Posted by: SevenStarHand on Jul 29, 2008 2:21 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you force-feed lies to people, which include purposely conflicting pretenses of truth, wisdom, and justice these events should surprise no one. Remember the crusades, slavery, Inquisition, witch-burning, genocide, child-rape, the war on terror, etc., etc., etc.? How can people be so deluded as to think that murder is a "righteous" act? Righteousness originally meant the zeal for truth and justice. No wonder Rome and the founders of Christianity killed off the "zealots" and later worked so hard to equate it with their delusions instead.

People like this have been purposely duped and deluded for profit. I think we need to start holding the leaders of these religions responsible for profiting from widespread and purposeful deception. The proofs that these religions are purposeful deception is overwhelming. The harm caused to civilization as a whole and to the psychological well-being of individuals is vastly underestimated. Why are they still given special status?

It certainly has nothing to with truth, wisdom, or justice.

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» **Rapping fist against skull** Posted by: Gungneir
» RE: Gee... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
excellent article, unfortunately
Posted by: comradebob on Jul 29, 2008 2:23 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If "cynic" is the correct term for Mr. Dolan, then I must be one as well. I live in Texas, "born and bred" as the cliche' goes, and have spent a half century observing simians like Adkisson & the Freepers. They run this state (although our changing demographics might soon alter that) - or, more precisely, they vote in sufficient numbers to keep electing the cheap, bogus-religious, fake-patriotic frauds who DO run the state, and who swindle the white trash who vote for them just like they swindle the rest of us. Difference is, the trash are too degraded to even realize it. I recommend a close reading of H.L. Mencken's "The Anglo-Saxon", as well as HLM's coverage of the Scopes trial (collected recently as "A Religious Orgy in Tennessee") to any romantic populists wishing to take issue with Mr. Dolan. Very little has really changed since Mencken wrote.

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Dolan Suddenly Upset by "Sneers"? Alterneters, Careful Where You Point That... Finger.
Posted by: grumble-bum on Jul 29, 2008 2:45 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's funny, because every single piece of his that I've read is nothing but arrogant, broad-brush sneering.

In fact, this double standard on Dolan's part (hateful sarcasm is noble when he makes his living off of it, but hateful when Conservatives do it for free), brings to mind the often cruel tone of various Alterneters on threads dealing with all kinds of issues.

Making broad, violence-tinged & snark-filled statements is stupid, intellectually lazy, & small minded whether the person making them is a so-called "freeper" or a so-called Progressive.

You name it, from personal threats to dissenting posters, to death threats to politicians, to suggestions that millions of humans aren't fit to breath, based on their politics or religion (or, in the case of this article, their geographic location), Progressive comment sites are neck & neck with the Conservative ones.

The shock here shouldn't be that there are people that think this way, it should be that we're becoming more & more like them every day.

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» Huh? Posted by: grumble-bum
» Seriously, Though. Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Huh? Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Huh? Posted by: jwverez
» "We're Not Dangerous"... Yet. Posted by: grumble-bum
How sad it is...
Posted by: progressivepam on Jul 29, 2008 2:54 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been a regular church-goer at a Unitarian congregation for the past five years. Our membership is full of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pagans and Wiccans, gays, straights, agnostics, atheists, etc. It is the most caring, loving and committed community I know. One that is willing to step out and take the unpopular stands (like being among the very first to oppose the war, always standing for reproductive freedom, gay rights, civil rights, etc.) I couldn't be prouder of my UU affiliation. Reading the posts on FR is such a profound reminder of the vast illness of hate, fear and loathing that permeates our country.

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» Politics/Religion Posted by: edith
» RE: Politics/Religion Posted by: progressivepam
» RE: Politics/Religion Posted by: greenthumb
» RE: Politics/Religion Posted by: edgar1
Irish/Scottish history
Posted by: kilmeny on Jul 29, 2008 3:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Actually, historians believe that the Celts traveled from what is now Northern Ireland into Scotland, not the other way around. So that would actually be moving east.
(What we now call the) Scots (or Scotti) were actually Celts (Irish) from (Northern) Ireland. This, too, is how Christianity spread, predominately through the evangelization of St Columba (521-597).
It is true that the Picts were already in central and eastern Scotland before the Irish/Scotti came.

KR

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» RE: Irish/Scottish history Posted by: valkyrie
» RE: Irish/Scottish history Posted by: davmills
» RE: Irish/Scottish history Posted by: bobtr900
The author is correct about the midwest being backward
Posted by: PaulC on Jul 29, 2008 3:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the most upscale suburbs of the Cleveland area is Westlake (the westside is bedroom-community Republican while the eastside is more intellectual and Democratic). A couple of years ago a large woods was leveled to put in THE church - the one that anyone who is anyone in town goes to to be seen. During the early heady days leading up to war and thereafter, this church would be blanketed with signs and huge banners proclaiming "Support the troops" "God Bless America" and this sort of thing.

About this time the paper reported that three men cornered the janitor early Sunday morning and demanded to see the pastor. It seems that the pastor was preaching unkind things about gays and these three fellows were there to pound some sense into the unkind preacher! Unfortunately the preacher was not there and the episode passed. But I seem to recall that a few weeks later a sign appeared on that church calling for compassion and understanding!

peace,
Paul

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Burn Those Damn Violent Roving Bands Of Westward-Moving Scottish Sectarians!
Posted by: loxias on Jul 29, 2008 4:33 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I knew it was them! No kidding! I install church PA and acoustic treatments. Every time I go in a church and there are any Violent Roving Bands Of Westward-Moving Scottish Sectarians, I get really anxious and start shoving Heartlanders...

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Final Solution
Posted by: mike_burns on Jul 29, 2008 6:05 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stalin, Po Pot, and Mao new how to put those kinds of people in their place.
Go RED!

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» RE: Final Solution Posted by: greenthumb
Liberal Gun Owner
Posted by: Van23 on Jul 29, 2008 6:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I’m a gun owning liberal. I’m also a Unitarian Universalist who attends services regularly. I also have a concealed carry permit in my state and I DO carry concealed when I go to church.

Why? I’ve been afraid of this EXACT thing happening– some fanatical right-winger going to the “liberal fag church” and start blasting away. I’m sorry that this happened, but I’m not suprised.

Needless to say, I’m going to continue packing in church.

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» Excellent point Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» Typical gun toting BULLSHIT Posted by: jwverez
» Typical GOOD CITIZEN Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Typical GOOD CITIZEN Posted by: Van23
» RE: Typical GOOD CITIZEN Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» I yield. Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: I yield. Posted by: vksa
» Right On! Posted by: Ethical1
» RE: ight On! Posted by: Van23
» RE: ight On! Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Typical GOOD CITIZEN Posted by: greenthumb
» Questions for liberal gun owner Posted by: Genevieve
» RE: Liberal Gun Owner Posted by: kazz
Dolan, My Man, are you the War Nerd?
Posted by: notabilia on Jul 29, 2008 6:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A review of John Dolan's book "Pleasant Hell" contained an outing of him as the true author of "War Nerd," en execrable book of foaming war enthusiasm in which the author, now known to the public as this John Dolan here, expresses great and undying love for this same FreeRepublic.com. What gives? Dolan here seems to frequent this Free Republic.com of which he professes such censure a little too much for comfort - is he a closet nutjob himself - a Freeper? Even if so, I like to think he is James Frey coming clean here, and though I actually have bought his books, I don't feel that bad for doing so - this is not exactly best-seller territory here.

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» RE: Dolan, My Man, are you the War Nerd? Posted by: Illiteratilumen
Dear Alternet Editorial Staff
Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Jul 29, 2008 7:07 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know that you guys don't worry too much about journalistic scruples but taking a tragedy like this and using it to fan the flames of the liberal vs. conservative divide in this country helps absolutely nothing. This is a case of a deranged sociopath vs. innocent people. This is not a case of typical conservative vs. liberal people. Its a sick man who did a terrible thing and you guys are all over this like vultures on a fresh carcass.

I also checked out the freerepublic links and there were far more commenters expressing sympathy for the victims and disgust at the perpetrator than any sort of bigoted and hateful remarks.

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» RE: Dear Alternet Editorial Staff Posted by: Illiteratilumen
the success of the Right--or failure of the Left?
Posted by: zooeyhall on Jul 29, 2008 7:38 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find myself asking the question: does the surge of right-wing and far right feelings in this country reflect a success of people like Limbaugh and O'Reilly? Or is is possibly a failure of Progressives to provide a viable alternative? Obviously this guy was deeply unbalanced, but are all of the millions who tune in to Fox and Limbaugh and visit sites like FreeRepublic unbalanced also?

Too often I have heard and read (including Alternet posts) Progressives dismissing people in the midwest and south as boors and hicks or "they're just not smart". Well they may be "hicks" but they are definitely not all stupid! I live in the rural midwest (Nebraska) and I don't see how the angry and desperate young men out here could possibly resonate with the advice that Progressives have for them: "you shouldn't shop at Walmart...you defnitely need to get rid of your guns...you need to welcome illegal immigrants and share your jobs and schools with them...what? You don't want to? Obviously you are a racist pig!...you need to eat vegetarian, you cruel animal hater..."

I am also wondering what are the reasons that millions tune-into the right-wing hate message now. What are the forces at work that are moving people in this direction in this country right now? We need to find out, because the dismissive attitudes of too many on the Progressive/liberal side remind me of what the "good Germans" must have thought/said in the early 1930's when faced with the rise of Nazism. And in hindsight they did so at their own peril.

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» So what is your solution? Posted by: dmwsd92
two wrongs don't make a right
Posted by: garlicgirl on Jul 29, 2008 7:43 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am appalled by the shooting and the bigotry that led to it. However, responding with more bigotry toward the Ulster Scot-Irish simply increases the problem. As a southern progressive and a descendant of those Ulster Scot-Irish, I know that your board condemnation is as inaccurate as those you complaining about.

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What the hell?!?
Posted by: pbutler on Jul 29, 2008 8:09 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why all the ethnic slurs against the Scots-Irish ("Ulster") American population?

Imagine a criticism of violence against Muslims with five repetitions of "Jewish" citizens, or similar chants attacking any other group.

Dolan offers a freeper-level (vague, unsupported) "history" of one demographic subset - a path also followed by, e.g., German immigrants - to pin "bigotry" on one set of citizens he then blames for social ills across the board.

This is an odd sort of rant to find on AlterNet - particularly when every comment box sits directly below a policy statement forbidding "racist, sexist or other discriminatory or hateful language".

Dolan seems to have spent too much time reading the lowest-level blogs on the 'net. Who knew knuckle-dragging was so contagious?

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» RE: What the hell?!? Posted by: ankhet
Problem Children of Ulster?
Posted by: fishboy27 on Jul 29, 2008 9:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is in response to the mentions in this article about the questionable humanity seemingly inherent in the Scots-Irish in America.

The truth is that we're not all that bad, we've just historically gotten the shaft.

We also seem to have been a rather convenient solution to some of Americas stickier problems over the years. Things such as being a buffer zone between the 'civilized' colonists on the coasts and Native Americans during our colonial era (you didn't actually expect the English Aristocrats to get their hands dirty, did you? Just send the Scots in and pretend everything is A-OK.), and of course manpower to sweat in our factories and dies on our wars.

The expected result of this is of course that a people were created that could see being shit on a mile away. After a couple of centuries, it gets a little tiresome.

We also don't exclusively inhabit the South. There are Scots-Irish all over New England, the Northwest, California and in particular the Maritime Provinces of Canada. (there may even be a few living in a pair of islands south of Sweden and West of France!)

This may scare some folks, but what this essentially means is that, well - WE ARE EVERYWHERE!

Don't be afraid, we promise to leave your daughters and your livestock alone.


Dave Hancock
Clan Fraser
Midcoast, Maine

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Our dangerously divided country
Posted by: Collielady on Jul 29, 2008 10:05 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is a federal crime to incite a riot, so what is the penalty for the right wing media inciting this guy to act upon the extreme hatred that they spew? The talking heads are too smart to physically go after anyone, but I bet they're not upset that someone else did. Words have meaning and the public airwaves should be monitored for hate talk and stiff penalties applied for same.

It seems that it's not enough to disagree and debate anymore. Vilifying others has become a media sport. I have plenty (too many) of right wing relatives who have latched onto every word of the talking heads. Their hatred is real and frightening and has divided the country. And it doesn't help any that the talking points have come straight from the White House, as recently discovered and reported.

So, I ask: will our differences become such that we go after each other, like the Shia and Sunni?

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Violent Video Games
Posted by: synx on Jul 29, 2008 10:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What many people are missing in the wake of this horror, is that 99% of bible beating right wing flat earth conservatives don't go on shooting sprees while clutching Hannity and Michael Weiner under both arms. What most conservatives, or meanies as I like to call them, do to harm us the worst is this.

They take control of our resources then sell it to us for a loss, leaving us enslaved and dependant on them while they forge a seamless plutocracy where you won't even be able to go outside without paying them a cut. They try to pass off as legitimate authorities, while deliberately saying exactly the opposite of the truth, but since they lie consistently many people instinctively suspect that there must be some truth in there. The end result of that is that the truth is ignored and pushed off as whacko and extreme, while the middle ground is exactly where it got in this kind of social haggling, right in their grubby, greasy, fat fingered, land owning, district managing, coal mining, mercury poisoning hands.

Meanies are not nice. They think it's okay to hurt people, and that if we just grew a backbone we wouldn't be whining and complaining so much. They don't have to go on shooting sprees. They just have to sit fat and satisfied in their office at the supermarket making sure only those who conform to submissive behaviors get any money, while trying to drain the resources away from all those who resist being enslaved via advertising. So when I hear talk about this sort of shooting spree, it strikes me not as characteristic of evil, but as the tip of a very ugly iceberg.

Don't blame the "violent video games" of Hannity and Weiner for this particular man's action. There is a media blitz that our corporate masters forced on this man, brainwashing him into causing such violence, but he was also fucked up in the head. The danger is not with this man, but in the more numerous offenses that aren't nearly so obvious.

Notice how other brainwashed fools are losing themselves in equivocation not even able to accept this man's brutal murder as bad. Notice when your manager thinks he can go buy that big truck with the money he could have passed along to you. Those little acts of meanness are what is taking society apart at the seams. With power comes responsibility. When someone thinks they can gain power, but also thinks that nobody else is entitled to anything they got, that is what makes things fall apart.

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Racist Tone
Posted by: aberdeen on Jul 29, 2008 10:51 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I take umbridge with this author's outrageous racist, bigoted and highly uneducated remarks:

"Ulster America founded by violent sectarians who moved westward again and again, from Scotland to Northern Ireland and then to the southern United States, then again westward into the American continent."

Why is it that so-called "liberals" believe it is perfectly okay to make blanket racist and bigoted statements against an entire culture of people, in this case my ancestors from Scotland, just as long as their skin is not dark?

And his version of U.S. history is grossly innacurate; there were plenty enough violent people from practically every culture represented in the so-called "taming" of the wild, wild West to go around. Just consider our violent founding-fathers themselves, including the slave-owning Tom Jefferson, who sent out Louis and Clark to explore the vast unknown; hardly a Scotsman among them.

Why would he single out the Scots? Imagine the outcry from AlterNet readers if he had made the same absurd blanket statement against Natives, Latinos or African-Americans or even the mostly non-violent Swedes and Mennonites who helped populate "Ulster" America.

What a load of horseshit! People are violent from all over the place, regardless of skin tone or national or cultural origin. Human history is full of violent people from every culture, every ethnicity and every nation. This author needs to open up a history book and Bible or two and otherwise, keep his head out of the vast sewer of prejudicial iniquity. We have enough problems here in Tennessee without this author adding to the great human garbage heap of bigotry and hatred.

My grandfather, who immigrated to the U.S. from Aberdeen, Scotland, was among the most intelligent, non-prejudiced and least violent of all human beings who every walked on God's slowly browning earth.

WHY IS IT OKAY TO POST THIS LOAD OF RACIST BUSH-APPLE PROPAGANDA ON ALTERNET, OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN AMERICA?

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This isn't helpful, or moral
Posted by: zerachiel on Jul 29, 2008 10:51 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ach! Such hypocrisy!

You know, replace "Ulster Americans" with "blacks" "Jews" or "Muslims" and you'd have a hate-filled diatribe that'd make any racist bigot proud.

The entire useful content of the article could be summed up in one sentence, "It's amusing to watch racist freepers choke on their own feet."

Eh...

The point I'm trying to make is this: If you found yourself agreeing with the author's sentiments on "Ulster America" (and how people who's ancestors hail from the northern-most counties of Ireland became a target of contempt, I have no idea) or on "midwesterners" in general, seriously needs to recheck their moral compass.

As I'm sure somebody wiser that me as said "if your going to try to remove hate from the world, first you need to remove it from yourself"

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And I thought 10 years in Vietnam was bad enough.
Posted by: jwverez on Jul 29, 2008 11:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately, I kind of knew what a dysfunctional society this was likely to be. However, I never expected it to go too far. Sure, people should have the right to rant what they want on the radios but somewhere you gotta draw the line and that's what most people just don't understand. Every time a liberal or even a moderate tries to host their own talk show, they get bought out and are replaced with either a sports talk channel or a rightwing religious fundie channel and the ignorance and hate keep building up. As some people have pointed out in other posts, the market isn't "free". It is RIGGED and must be reformed. At this point, the only way to win against the rightwing noise machine is to ditch tv and radio altogether and learn to counter them by saying "I've gained nothing from your lies and hypocrisy so no thank you."

P.S.: I wouldn't be surprised to see Iraq and Afghanistan looking worse than even the Vietnam War itself. When I retired from the military, the one major lesson I learned was that as long as society depends too much on weapons and ammo for solving their problems big or small, it will continue to collapse and implode. This decade has shown just the worst of it that even the 1970s don't look so bad in pale comparison.

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I've said it all along
Posted by: DR. LARRY MITCHELL on Jul 29, 2008 11:10 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We libs aren't right in every last item of the inventory, but some of these southern Rethugs are just howling-at-the-moon bat-shit crazy. O'Reilly, Hannity and Savage feed into this, and then allow themselves no responsibility for their words.
I'm not surprised, just saddened.

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What is your point?
Posted by: mrgavel on Jul 30, 2008 8:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By the time most of us become an adult, we have realized that we are doomed to share the earth with millions, if not billions, of people whose political and social views we can't stand. The problem isn't that they exist, the problem is figuring out a way to co-exist with them.

There are fanatics in every creed and political persausion. It may make you better to think that somehow you are above all this and only the "Ulster Americans" are engaging in this activity, but as reports around the world show you, you would be wrong.

Here's a suggestion: stop being so condscending and try and figure out a way to persaude others to be more tolerant. In the long run, it is more effective than having AlterNet print your rant.

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Why do people keep calling them "conservatives"?
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Jul 30, 2008 8:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Freepers, neocons, the Bush Administration, and run of the mill rightwing nutjobs are not conservatives. They are radicals. Wingnuts. Batshit loonytoons. But most assuredly not conservatives.

It's unfortunate when a perfectly good word with a real meaning gets twisted and perverted like this. I'm a progressive liberal politically, but I can still appreciate some traditional conservative ideology. It's an insult to those who believe in fiscal restraint, individual responsibility, privacy and freedom from government interference, and a whole host of other admirable issues to equate them with the monsters who have been in power in recent times.

Limbaugh, Coulter, Cheney, Savage, and their ilk really, really, really need a new label.

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» Great, great label! Posted by: LeeAnnG
skeptic
Posted by: luzmejor on Jul 30, 2008 8:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess I will need to look up these Ulster people the writer mentions. Perhaps he is referring to the mountain men of the early American states, who were excellent with shotguns?

It seemed to me that the gunman was our modern fundamentalist, steeped in the early southern slave-owner's philosophy of being born with certain rights and privileges over other, more ordinary human beings. People like that are authoritarian absolutists and expect to be treated with much deference of the bowing and scraping variety, especially by women.

When that extraordinary treatment is not forthcoming in any establishment, there will be hell to pay.

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doesn't anyone else see the irony?
Posted by: AnneP on Jul 30, 2008 8:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this man hated liberals but was angry cause his food stamps ran out!!!!

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» RE:That is the beauty of the Regressives... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
As a Scot- irish Descendent I am ashamed
Posted by: Purple Girl on Jul 30, 2008 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have spent the last year researching my heritage, and have been vindicated in my Liberal ideology. it is time those who claim to charish theirs do a little research too.
Scotch Irish were run out of Scotland becasue of their Progressive ideals- their battle against Religious oppression and conformity. We were the 'Outcasts' from both th eEnglish Protestants and the roman Catholics. We held on to many old philosophies which were Banned by these heretical Religions- murdering any who dared speak against them.
When we were run out of Scotland -we were pushed to Ireland- and were hated again. When we ventured to the 'Free World' we were discriminated against Again. Why do they think they have isolated themselves- as a matter of remaining 'pure' - NO it was we were pushed out of the main stream by those in power.
It is a travesty - a crime against OUR heritage to do the same to others who only wish for the same Freedoms as Our ancestors did. It is Spitting on their dreams, goals and ideals these ignorant 'Scot-irishmen' are doing now with their bigotry and discrimination.
Any proud and observant Scotch Irish Descendant should be on the front lines when it comes to Equality for All!
You have played right into the hands of murders who massacred your ancestors centuries before- you are no better!
REason 'Hillbilly' is a derogatory term- because your ancestors were labled that because of their desire to support William over the Hanoverian who stole the Crown from the Stewarts. You have not only validated the original Propagnada agaist our Descent- you have poliferated the lie for them. We were a nation of progressives, we were adherant to the idea All men were created equal! We are descendants of not only the openmindness of the Druids, but also the French. Your small minded prejudices are far more historically linked to those englishmen and Romans who tried to exterminate your ancestors!Why did the romans build a Wall- because they could not Conquer the Scots sense of Freedom, Why did the English ultimately allow Scotland and ireland to determine it's own destiny- because of our innate trait of FREEDOM!
It is our Duty - Or Heritage to demand Freedom for All- including Gays, minorities and women!Otherwise you are spitting on your own ancestors Graves, disgracing their legacy and their struggle!

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» As A Catholic I am ashamed Posted by: bobtr900
» RE: As A Catholic I am ashamed Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: As A Catholic I am ashamed Posted by: Squarehead
especially confusing about this whole "ulster" thing...
Posted by: lexicon on Jul 30, 2008 9:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The vast majority of immigrants from ulster to the USA were protestant/presbyterian. Those folks were NOT the indigenous Irish, but a mish-mash of Normands and Anglos from the plantation, with a healthy scattering of Scots from later on.

As people who came to fill the void of land dispossessed from the native Irish, they were of course targets/victims in subsequent wars.

So I guess, I'm confused about this whole "ulster" connection. Most of the US immigrants would have been Unionists, post-plantation occupants, and I just don't "get" how that's a connection to this new story today. These immigrants would have been the english speaking lot, not the Irish speaking ulster native lot...

Seems like a long-stone-cold-dead trail of association that really doesn't hold relevance anymore?

So, why does the author keep trying to hammer the point?

lexicon

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civil war
Posted by: Grandma Crabby on Jul 30, 2008 9:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I live near Nashville, TN. For many people in the south, the civil war never ended and they are itching to have another. I have heard more than one person around here say they think another civil war is inevitable.

It is scary to know how many redneck idiots like this guy are running around. Trust me, there's tons of them and they are incredibly hateful and mean.

People from other areas don't quite get it. They do not understand how COMMON these right wing extremists are. They do not understand how SERIOUS they are and how they are convinced that they are right and supported by God and the constitution. Of course, they couldn't tell you what either the Bible or the constitution actually says, but they are willing to kill you over it.

The churches around here spew this kind of hatred and feel that it is holy. All Jews are going to hell. Homosexuals deserve to die. God hates niggers. Amen brother.

They are self righteous, stupid and mean. This incident didn't surprise me at all. What surprises me is that it doesn't happen more frequently.

VideoProductionTips = Learn Internet Video

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» RE: civil war Posted by: Aimleft
America is Not God's Gift to Humanity, Folks
Posted by: Finaddict on Jul 30, 2008 9:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Very well said, Mr. Dolan. For 8 years I've been amazed and shocked at how easily mislead--or lead by the noses--Americans seemed to have been by the conservative spin machine. But, finally, I've been forced to come to the same, ugly conclusion that Americans a lot of Americans AREN'T being misled.

It's not by any divine gift or genetic accident that Americans have done good in the past--it's by the sweat and toil of (some) enlightened people to overcome our baser fears and insecurities. That's the good part of our country, other countries and INDIVIDUALS: overcoming the lesser parts of ourselves. One of the horrors of the Bush administration is that after 9/11 they didn't use the ensuing world support to do real good--it used anger and fear for self gain.

Can we be better again?

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Is this really any different?
Posted by: Cybershaman on Jul 30, 2008 11:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is there any real difference between what this man did and a Sunni suicide bomber walking into a Shite mosque and detonating himself?
Each person has been subjected to an echo chamber that convinces them that those who have differing opinions are their 'enemies'. I've heard it for years. "Liberals are terrorist enablers ... no wait ... they're terrorists themselves!" Hell, we have a nutcase right here who successfully pushed legislation through labeling people who own 'boom cars' as 'terrorists', because the loud thumping was scaring him. Environmentalists are routinely labeled 'eco-terrorists'.
Never mind that it was the anti-abortion crowd who were actually in the business of killing clinic workers. No, it's them damn peaceniks that are the REAL threat!
Limbaugh never had to worry about some nut case putting a bullet in his head after a show. But liberal talk show hosts have had JUST THAT done to them. The forces of intolerance and bigotry work their peculiar magic in BOTH of our systems. We still do not understand that you tend to become what you fight against if you are not careful.
I've never seen much difference between the Ayatollah Khomeini and the Assahola O'Rielly.

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Conservatives by another name - racist!
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jul 30, 2008 11:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those Freepers are exactly the type of people that are frightening to me and should be to everyone else. They would deny Tim McVeigh is one of them, yet they praise Rush Limbaugh as a hero! People fail to realize these are some of the same people that rushed to the Dixiecrat party upon it's creation. The sad part is that they fail to see how the party elite are using them and their bigotry while enriching themselves, leaving the masses behind!

Of course they have to be apologists and revisionists because in their deluded minds the real truth is too painful to contemplate! They are as bad as their brainwashed Muslim counterparts! As a religion I believe Islam like Christianity can, will, and has been used to justify every evil thing they do, yet then they want to whine "see they hate Christianity"!

They also fail to recognize that unless their name is either preceded or followed by a gerund, they too are interlopers in this country! Kicking Bear lives on the reservation, and that racist attitude is part of the reason many of the original native nations in this country were decimated!

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Disgusting bigotry! I'm talking about Dolan, TOO
Posted by: navy-vet on Jul 30, 2008 12:44 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a Unitarian Universalist for 53 years, and an activist since age 15 (now 72) in every campaign from get Joe McCarthy & black civil rights to a raft of ongoing struggles including end imperialism and impeach the greedyguts, I am extremely distressed at the tragedy in Knoxville. But I'm equally distressed by this article, which I found prejudiced and disgusting.

Mr. Dolan blames it all on a people he calls the "Ulster Americans," which seems to be the latest "N word" or "Jewish problem"--which, if you remember, were embraced by self-styled "liberals" like Mr. Dolan.

I want him to know that ancestrally I'm an Ulster American, and so are a lot of my fellow activists. Every week we work for social justice and peace, yet according to Mr. Dolan anything that ever went wrong anywhere was our fault.

Perhaps he doesn't realize that Presbyterian Ulstermen, strong for freedom and justice, rose up and fought in the United Irish rebellion in 1798 alongside Catholics, Unitarians, Quakers and disaffected Anglicans, a rebellion led by 2 Unitarians, Wolfe Tone and Napper Tandy. Now the Protestants and Catholics in Ulster, after generations of suffering from "divide and conquer", seem to be working things out and joining together again. I hope the division of Ireland can be healed soon

Here in America, Temple University professor Blocker, an African American, claimed that the immigrant and 2nd-generation Scots-Irish (same as "Ulster Americans") provided MOST of the abolitionists and white Conductors on the Underground Railroad in the nation's interior. My own branch certainly did, basing their actions on the Bible. My immigrant great-grandparents and their family were the leading Conductors in southern Clarion County, PA, and my family name got into Dr Blocker's book and other books on Underground Railroad actions. Others on my father's side left the U.S. for Canada in disgust, have been suspicious of Big Stick militarism and imperialism (when I joined the Navy after college I got a lot of static), worked for Native American rights, fought in the union struggles, and at least one was a radical LaFollette Progressive. The Anglo-German-Shawnee side was OK, too. My mother's sister was a militant suffragist who chained herself to the high school fence until they let her take wood shop, and my mother was so proud of Tecumseh she made sure I knew about the Shawnee freedom struggles. As a small child I was inspired BY THESE STORIES OF MY FAMILY to be an endless, tireless activist. I vowed to live up to their high standard.

Mr. Dolan says he's a cynic, but I believe he's nothing but a bigot, judging a whole people from the actions of a few. I left the Navy because I detested the war in Vietnam, became a nationally known authority on energy conservation and a historian of dissenting movements. As a historian I know perfectly well that many Scots-Irish Americans harbor right-wing resentments--a few have married into my own family--but he needs to remember that Woody Guthrie, balladeer for the rights of the underprivileged, was a Scots-Irish Protestant. And that Timothy McVeigh, despite his name, was not.

Would it not be more profitable to ask WHY the descendants of Ulster immigrants, among others who were once so supportive of the New Deal, have turned angry and bitter? It's not all racism and homophobia. Might it have something to do with blundering policies, broken infrastructure, and a failed economy? With media propaganda, aimed at those out of work who sit home all day? With our public money frittered away on welfare for the rich and overseas imperialist adventuring? On the failures of our schools, too timid to discuss the Constitution and Bill of Rights?

Bigotry has no place in honest and serious political dialogue, Mr. Dolan. Before you cast blame upon a whole group, sir, look in the mirror. You may see that beam in your own eye.

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» There's a book you might want to read Posted by: ReallyBearish
From murderous bigotry to blind stereotypes
Posted by: yestosafetynet on Jul 30, 2008 1:04 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John Dolan has provided very interesting and valuable information as to the influences that shaped Jim Atkisson's dreadful bigotry. But this cannot justify Dolan's litany of vicious stereotypes against US citizens of Ulster and Scottish heritage and white Protestants in general. There are and have always been Protestants in Northern Ireland who acknowledged and lamented the errors of such extremists as Ian Paisley, just as there have been Catholics who rejected the hate and violence of the I.R.A. The polarization of extremes and extremists in both the Unionist leadership and the I.R.A. led to blind hate and vengefulness. The fact that both could ultimately face reality and forsware further violence in order to end the bloodshed and to share power is the really victorious outcome. It is an example that should inspire the residents of Israel/Palestine (especially those with all of the nuclear missiles and American battlefield weapons) to reach a similar united society. Mr. Dolan is hanging onto the bitter comfort that unforgiving righteous indignation leaves in those who think only of their own injuries. It is time to put away the guns and plan together how to live together in the same world and nation.

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SteelMagnolia
Posted by: GeorgiaBlue on Jul 30, 2008 1:15 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a southerner and happy to say we are not all like the lunatic fringe who think the only way they can feel pride in themselves is to kill anyone who doesn't look or believe as they do. Coulter, Limbaugh and crowd prey on these people's ignorance and anger at their station in life and have to have someone to blame besides themselves. Most (but not all) are way down on the food chain and blame liberals, blacks, Muslims, etc. for their failings, forgetting that they are born just as equal as everyone else but failed to make the effort to better themselves. They are forgetting that Timothy McVey, was one of them, also! Bet they don't turn down the social security checks and the good roads and schools and fire departments and police departments and medicare/medicaid and all the other services provided by so-called "liberals"! If they want to go back to "everyone for himself", fine, but I prefer to live in a house, not a cave!

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Ulster Whites?
Posted by: ross_sauce on Jul 30, 2008 6:22 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Sir<

Just as I deplore the violence of the rightwing shooter in Knoxville, I also resent the racist violence you do to my people, who are Ulster Scots from way back. I was raised a mainstream Presbyterian in East Tennessee and learned that "God is Love." That was repeated endlessly in song and prayer and liturgy for my whole childhood, just as it is still taught in all the churches of East Tennessee that I know about. I was taught by my faith and my heritage to be a liberal -- to care for the poor, to attend to the sick and weak, to open our hearts and to work for peace and justice. And to care for the created world around us.

Please don't try to oversimplify the world by using ethnicity or race or religion or gender, OK?

Thanks.

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» RIGHT ON Posted by: Genevieve
» RE: Ulster Whites? Puhleez Posted by: DaBear
The self-righteous and ungrateful would usually show their anger at the polls
Posted by: dmwsd92 on Jul 30, 2008 9:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The killer used his gun to do the disenfranchisement in the most gruesome way possible. How low does our country have to sink?

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Three Things
Posted by: BobKincaid on Jul 30, 2008 9:36 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ONE: here where I am in West Virginia, we're still a majority of so-called Scots-Irish. And y'know what? We're under attack. 3 million pounds of high explosives are used on our magnificent hills and homes every day with Mountain Top Removal. And guess what us violent Scots-Irish do, for the most part when we're attacked with the same explosives Timothy McVeigh used? Answer: Not A GodDamned Thing. We're repeatedly told "It's Good For You," our children get sicker, our wells get poisoned, the streams run black, our foundations crack and most of us (I ain't one of 'em) do NOTHING.

So much for that whole Crazed Ulstermen b/s.

TWO: want to get a handle on what Dolan aimed at but missed by a mile? Get your hands on Joe Bageant's "Deer Hunting With Jesus." It's out in paperback now and explains far more than can a wander over FreeperVille.

THREE: Of course the Knoxville attack was terrorism. Terrorism is best accomplished by those incapable of processing rational thought. It's best bred in bigotry, conceived in desperation and incubated in ignorance. The "suicide bombers" in Iraq and Afghanistan have more in common with Jim Adkisson than they have separate, including an irrational conviction that inflicting mindless, soulless evil is a viable response to evil (actual or imagined) inflicted upon them.

Quite often, a terrorist will harm the very people who might've been interested in helping them. That was certainly the case at TVUUC.

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» Preach it, brother Bob! Posted by: redceres
» RE: Preach it, brother Bob! Posted by: BobKincaid
» RE: Three Things Posted by: DaBear
I encourage everyone to read the actual posts this article refers to
Posted by: Genevieve on Aug 1, 2008 1:54 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, there were a lot of alarming, bigoted statements but there were also a lot of kind words and "prayers sent" for the victims. What really freaked me out was all of the talk of carrying guns to church and (paraphrasing) how this could have been prevented if everyone carried a gun and "the wild west was safer!" You wouldn't believe how many people used this tragedy as an excuse to brag about what they "carry" and to fantasize about how they would have used it had they been there. One person mentioned how uncomfortable they are sitting in church with their back to the door, and another questioned why no one was suspicious about a stranger in church. Carrying all of these reactionary ideas to their logical conclusions would be against everything Christ taught!

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Lets get real
Posted by: mara125 on Aug 1, 2008 5:07 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Back in the Reagan era, the term liberal became dirty. Talk radio and the right have been using this warping of the language without any dissent from the left for too long. Religion isn't about hate. Its about having external limits on behavior if you so choose to believe. Its time for the left to remind all of those who preach hate and fear that were it not for the LIBERALS who helped to start this country, we'd all be members of the same government sponsored religion; and they'd have to get real jobs.

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» RE: Lets get real Posted by: DaBear
The biggest concern, IMM, is WTF to do about these RWA zealots...
Posted by: DaBear on Aug 1, 2008 5:47 PM   
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This is bedrock America speaking, Ulster America. Maybe it's time we looked it in the face, instead of pretending that our compatriots are all just good-hearted folks who have been misled.

Agreed, although last time I had a conversation with a fellow working class prog-lib person no such assumption exists amongst our group. Maybe the author's referring to the middlings and owning classers... they commonly get confused on things outside their world.

But seriously the real concern to me is what to actually and genuinely do about this. Conversation, reminders, love, etc. won't change one ounce of these dumbassed peoples' worldview or RWA bias and prejudice. I suppose pulling them out of society medicating them and perhaps treating them with empathy treatments might work but are the librul-lites going to let us do something that radical and Orwellian?

Time after time we're chastised for having anger as a response to this sort of violence from the Right, time after time we're told to chill out and be patient, cautious, avoid generalizing, don't mention the Nazi's, don't say Hitler, don't yell fire. And yet, the more these things are avoided the more violence comes our way.

Seems to me, when the theater's on fire, you can yell Fire all you fucking want to. Better yet, put the damned thing out, why don't we?

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Seems relevant to this discussion on Ulster-Scots and their contribution to USA. It is an interview
Posted by: Squarehead on Aug 2, 2008 1:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read this yesterday, in the Irish Times (Dublin). Seems relevant to this discussion on Ulster-Scots and their contribution to USA. It is an interview with Senator Jim Webb.

"He believes withdrawal should only take place after a new administration has launched a "diplomatic surge" in the region, as suggested almost two years ago by James Baker and Lee Hamilton in their report on Iraq.

He said that the US could be about to make the same mistake in Afghanistan as it did in Iraq. "You have to have an articulable end-point," he said. "We've got to clearly understand what it is that the US wants to do in Afghanistan and understand what we can do."

But it is Mr Webb's background as a "Reagan Democrat" - the group of working-class Democratic supporters who switched to the Republicans in the aftermath of the Vietnam war - that gives him the most clout with his Democratic colleagues.

The 62-year-old senator believes that the conservative revolution that was fuelled by the switch of voters from his own Scots-Irish background to the Republicans in the 1970s and 1980s is drawing to a close. He said that the Democrats now had a "historic opportunity" to win back those voters and change the contours of American politics.

"One thing that I said when I decided to run for the Senate in 2006 was that if you take this bellwether [ Scots-Irish working-class] group, this is a test to see whether it can come back to its natural populist roots in the Democratic party and if you do that you will have a redefinition of the two parties," he said.

As he stated in his book Born Fighting, which argues that the Scots-Irish Protestants are the most important and overlooked ethnic group in the US, Mr Webb rejects the view that they are racially motivated.

"The story of the American south was never white against black. It was always a small minority of whites setting whites against blacks, and if those two cultures can get together at the same place on the table they can remake American politics."

Given that Mr Obama is African-American, Mr Webb's thesis is about to receive the ultimate test. Mr Webb says that the Democrats alienated working-class voters by following the dictates of "special interest groups". In contrast, the Republicans tailored specific social conservative appeals to win their support. "Karl Rove [ George W Bush's electoral maestro] knows this culture inside out and the Democrats don't even know it exists," he said.

© 2008 Financial Times"


Can I point out that I live in Northern Ireland (Ulster), and cannot approve of the peculiar bigotry that John Dolan presents in this article. My neighbors are NOT, in the main, the bigots suggested here. And Webb, who I much admire, from this distance, makes some very relevant electoral points. I understand he has ruled out being the VP. A pity.

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The dangers of stereotyping...
Posted by: Gungneir on Aug 3, 2008 1:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you went school, you probably knew a kid like me. I was the kid that didn't fit...anywhere. Too poor to be with the upper class kids, too bookish to care about most of the folks in my own income bracket. I spent most of my non-work time reading and dodging bullies. Funny how all that bullying evaporated when I was 16 and started taking up Karate. But...I was still the social misfit. I had friends but it wasn't a clique. I got ostracized, kicked around, treated like Frankenstein's monster...and I never could understand why. In some ways, I still don't.

This is a preamble for what I have to say. It's not going to be nice, but truth rarely is. Any flamers can open fire at their discretion. I've been dealing with that kind of crap for over twenty years now. What you have to tell me is not going to new to me, I promise you.

Too many of the posters I've been reading here are in danger of becoming the exact thing they hate. It's a process that's been perfected over the millenia of human civillization. A disenfranchised group starts out with legitimate grievances against their oppressors (think US public and W's mishandling of...well everything). They gain ground, momentum, and, with enough time and organizing, eventually power (think the hope attached to the candidacy of Obama). Then the power and the ethics get put in seperate compartments and the power is the only thing that gets used. After a while, because they were right once upon a time, the group begins thinking that they are always right. They act accordingly, imitating the oppressors they knocked out of the seat. This eventually gives rise to a new group of rebels...and on the cycle goes.

THIS is the future we're building with our words RIGHT NOW. We're going on no different a path than the Freepers or that gunman when we demonize our opposition without trying to figure them out. Do we really want to imitate the folks who, with their invicible self-righteousness, have managed to kill and maim God only knows how many people in Iraq? Claims of high moral ground ring hollow when all we're doing is imitating some of the other side's tactics.

"But they WORK!" I hear some of you scream. Sure, they work...at everyone else's expense. You want to prove to be better than that, do something that works just as good without the inconsideration. Can't do it? Prepare for another spin on the not-so-merrygoround.

The world doesn't become a better place just because your favorite people are in charge.

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typical conservative doubling hyperbole
Posted by: whealeydj on Aug 3, 2008 3:08 AM   
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he only used Nazi twice and Fword once--you doubled both a threw in an ahole and CAPS. it reminds me of a Far Side about what we say and what dogs hear. so my conclusion is that when liberals curse or call someone a nazi the conservative hears it in caps and twice as much as used. that is why I have stop using Nazi and call the Bushites STALINIST or MAOIST since those are the techniques they adopted in incarcerating and interrogating suspected Islamists.

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As a UU I found the article very intersting despite Ulster American
Posted by: whealeydj on Aug 3, 2008 5:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
comments which took so many posters off on whtether Dolan was being a bigot himself. I was not willing to go to freeper to expose myself to the comments of those responding to one of their own shooting up a UU church. I did read similar comments attached to news articles from TN about adkissons greading choices.

The distinctions that posters and Dolan make about English,vs Scots-Irish vsd Irish I found a little too steeped in the 19th century. all three groups are definitely consdered white and/or anglo in 21st century. At least one great grandmother (McBurney-Palin) was Scots Irish but that was century ago so nobody cares but me. She lived in Brooklyn so apparently exempt from Dolans characterization of the racist southern and western Scots-Irish represented by Andrew Jackson and T.Woodrow Wilson. Is McCain from this ethnic group and so what if he is--who kows and who cares?. I dont even know if Adkisson or McVeigh from this ethnic group although all three were combat veterans with chips on their shoulder.

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Thomas Paine said...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Aug 3, 2008 8:24 AM   
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"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law."

Go to the root of all evil...organized religion to solve most of the problems in society.

I realized early on that it is detailed scientific knowledge which makes certain religious beliefs untenable.

A knowledge of the true age of the earth and of the fossil record makes it impossible for any balanced intellect to believe in the literal truth of every part of the Bible in the way that fundamentalists do.

And if some of the Bible is manifestly wrong, why should any of the rest of it be accepted automatically? What could be more foolish than to base one's entire view of life on ideas that, however plausible at the time, now appear to be quite erroneous?

And what would be more important than to find our true place in the universe by removing one by one these unfortunate vestiges of earlier beliefs?

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» Go deeper Posted by: grailsnail
The inheritance of a culture
Posted by: GPFrank on Aug 3, 2008 9:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The so-called "Scot-Irish" are the descendents of
the mercenaries Oliver Cromwell sent over to Ireland to occupy and pacify after overthrowing the Catholic monarchy (Charles I)
Thus for these occupiers the vigor of the Scots reformation under John Knox became a matter of "reforming" whomever they came in contact with in their travels to protect them as well as themselves from what they considered the malignant Papist influence. A segment of these folks at the time when Scotland won independence said in effect,
"Now we can acquire colonies just like the English" While some of these families branched out as wanderers and vagabonds others bred into the military and became admirals and generals. Thus we are largely imbued with a military tradition which popularly takes that form of "pre-emption" , that is, the best defense is a good offense. While the Presbyterians I currently know are pacifist yet when I mention something related to the Catholic (Roman) church there is that little cringing. There are those in every group of course think that reasonable argument and negotiation is a waste of time that can be saved by good use of the powder and are restrained only by the fact that
the authorities have more powder.

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