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What Happens When a School Board of Religious Zealots Will 'Lie for Jesus'?

By Onnesha Roychoudhuri, AlterNet. Posted June 20, 2008.


Lauri Lebo, author of Devil in Dover, gives an insider's account of a historic court battle about dogma and Darwin in small-town America.
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The intelligent design case in Dover, Penn., was the stuff of tabloid dreams: a community divided when a school board led by religious fundamentalists tried to bring creationism into the local biology curriculum. But look beneath the surface, and it was hardly the two-dimensional "science versus religion" narrative favored by the press. As Lauri Lebo, a local reporter who covered the trial, writes, the "'Darwinism'-spouting teachers were preachers' kids; the 'atheist' plaintiffs taught Sunday school; the 'activist' judge was a Bush-appointed Republican; and the journalists labeled 'liars' were willing to go to jail for the truth."

In her new book, The Devil in Dover: An Insider's Story of Dogma v. Darwin in Small-Town America, Lebo writes of her journey through a familiar town made alien by a handful of school board members willing to, as Lebo puts it, "lie for Jesus." Lebo closely follows the story of how a handful of fundamentalists, pushing to include the teaching of creationism in school biology courses change their tack when the conservative Christian Thomas More Law Center gets involved. School board members suddenly stop talking about Jesus and creationism, denying statements they made to local reporters, and saying instead they were advocating the teaching of the so-called science of intelligent design. The lies were outright enough to make the presiding judge flush with anger, who subsequently cited the school board's "breathtaking inanity," in his decision against them.

While it quickly becomes clear who is lying and who is telling the truth in the trial, Lebo explores the far more complex question of why school board members would choose to lie. The weeks she spent covering the trial, speaking intimately with both school board members and the parents in the community who took them on, are a testament to the earnestness and curiosity with which Lebo sought answers to the deeper questions at hand: What was really at stake for those who lied, and why does such a fundamental divide occur not just within a community, but within families? How can we connect with those who do not believe as we do?

Throughout the coverage of the trial, Lebo's narrative weaves courtroom tensions in with the heated conversations she had with her fundamentalist father. It is at once the story of a historic court battle and the story of how the issues at its heart -- faith, belief and truth -- can deeply affect us all.

Lebo sat down with AlterNet to talk about the many characters she met during the trial and her creationist-inspired road trip that left her with more questions -- and a tattoo of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Onnesha Roychoudhuri: At the start of the book, you say, "This isn't a story about God versus science but one of truth versus lies." That conclusion isn't something you took for granted.

Lauri Lebo: I don't come from a science background. This was about scientific proof of the existence of God, and I admit I wasn't sure if that was possible, but I wanted to look into it. I really did come into this with an open mind, but I wanted know what I was talking about. So I threw myself into understanding, I really started working on learning the issues on both sides. When I talked to the real scientists, I noticed that they were always so great about explaining things to me. If I had a question, or if I didn't get it, they'd say, "Let me try to explain it a different way." One scientist from Kansas actually said, "I have to go visit my in-laws this weekend, but here's their number if you need me." I had never even met him beyond talking on the phone, but they were just so helpful.

I started getting suspicious of the other side, like the Discovery Institute, when I found that they would use really long words that didn't really make much sense to me and when I would say, "I'm not understanding your point," they would use the same long words, only they'd say them faster and louder. They never deviated from the script. I started to get the feeling that they weren't being straight with me. At one point, I know that [senior fellow at the Discovery Institute] Jonathan West said to me, "I don't get it. Other reporters get this. You don't. Why are you so obtuse?"

OR: How did Dover start? You write about how, when the school board approached the science teachers about teaching creationism, one of them even laughed, thinking it was a joke. How did the creationist movement gain momentum?

LL: In the minds of science teachers, the idea that creationism is legitimate science is so absurd that they have trouble understanding how anyone could embrace it. The teacher who laughed was Bryan Rehm, a very devout Christian. Actually, most of the science teachers (in this trial) were very religious, which is interesting. This all started when Alan Bonsell ran for school board office. He was really interested in pushing a religious agenda. This was something that grew out of the Moral Majority of the 1980s. A lot of people started running for school boards so that they could get "God back into the schools," as they say. Bonsell was definitely leading this agenda: I don't think it was an accident that he appointed Jane Cleaver, who got a petition going to bring prayer back into the schools, and Bill Buckingham, the religious retired police officer. When vacancies appeared, Alan Bonsell led efforts to get them on the school board to stack the deck with people who shared his views that God should be taught in science class.

Then there was Larry Reeser, the janitor who brought the members of the school board into the school to see this student-painted mural of the evolution of man. It offended him so much. Alan Bonsell said, "They told us over and over again that they're not teaching monkeys-to-man evolution, but here it is right there, there's a mural here that shows that." That really upset him, and that's when he became much more active about pushing his agenda. Finally, Bill Buckingham, who has never been very good at holding his tongue, spoke up and actually said the word "creationism."

OR: The plaintiffs that then gathered together were hardly a group of atheists. Can you explain who these people were?

LL: They really did come from different viewpoints. For instance, Steve Stough, a Christian and science teacher in another school district. His issue was that this isn't science so it should not be in our classrooms. It might work in Sunday school, but it certainly doesn't work in science class. Then there's Tammy Kitzmiller. What bothered her so much was that this was religion. They came at it from different angles, but they believed that they had a responsibility to their community, and came together under the banner of the First Amendment. They felt that they had an obligation to stand up in the face of this.

OR: They were also standing up for their children -- some of whom were very vocal in their opposition of creationism being taught in their school.

LL: Yes. Tammy Kitzmiller's daughter Jess was put in a position where she had to decide whether she wanted to sit there or take her stand. That can be tough for kids, especially in a school district where there are a lot of people who think if you believe in evolution, you can't believe in God, and you're essentially on the outside. There can be a lot of pressure on a kid at that age, and it is sad that they have to go through something like that.

There are a lot of kids out there who are much more reserved. They don't want to make waves, and that's a tough age to have that sort of peer pressure. I'm thinking of the boy out in Ohio. There's an eighth-grade science teacher out there who doesn't believe in evolution, so he's been teaching creationism behind the scenes, passing out Bibles to the kids. He used an electrostatic device in science class to burn the shape of the cross on this Catholic kid's forearm. The parents were afraid to stand up to this. They contacted a lawyer and have tried to stay anonymous. It's hard to believe that an eighth-grade kid would let somebody burn a cross into their arm, but then you think what it's like to be in eighth grade.

OR: And that teacher-student relationship creates a certain dynamic.

LL: Apparently he's also a very well-liked teacher, so that would make it even worse. This is why the courts have taken the forcing of religion into public schools so seriously: It's such a vulnerable population.

OR: You got to know some of the defendants pretty well. Bill Buckingham was a very interesting and conflicted character. I know you have an anecdote in the book where he talks to you about watching his father suffer before he died, and how, despite his rigid religious beliefs, he raised the topic of euthanasia. There seemed to be a disconnect between what he professed to believe and his actions -- in the course of the trial, he lied to the court. But you also describe him going to the stand with a copy of the Constitution in his suit pocket. "In his mind," you write, "the entire case was based on (the) myth of the separation of church and state."

LL: Bill Buckingham and I have a very strange relationship. He and I continue to talk. I do like the way he tells stories, and there are points of him that are confoundingly endearing. However, he didn't tell the truth, and I also know that he tries to manipulate me a lot. I wanted to understand him and why someone would be willing to lie for Jesus the way that he did. I spent a lot of time working with him and trying to get to know him. Some days he'll present a side to me that is insightful, and then the next day he's just full of bluster, back to being the blustery retired cop. But I wanted to use his stories, and the reason I included them was because I want people to understand what motivates someone in his position.

OR: A critical turning point in the story is when the Thomas More Law Center got involved with the Dover school board. That seemed to mark when the board switched from being vocal about the religious element, and using the word "creationism," to talking about "intelligent design" and trying to speak solely in scientific terms.

LL: This for me was the most emotional point of the book because that's when they started lying, as was shown later on in the trial. In the process, they slandered two very religious local reporters. The board initially talked about creationism at a June board meeting. There were two June board meetings, and the first one was well attended, but by the second one, once the stories had come out that they were talking about creationism, there were about 100 people in the room and it was tape-recorded. They again talked about religion, and it was at one of these meetings that Bill Buckingham said, "2,000 years ago, someone died on the cross, won't someone stand up for him." He was talking about putting creationism into the biology curriculum. Of course, once Thomas More got involved, they switched from talking about that to intelligent design.

I've spent so many hours trying to find out exactly when they started talking about intelligent design. Obviously someone told the board, "No, creationism has been struck down by the courts. You can't teach creationism -- how about intelligent design?" And that was clear because Thomas More had been shopping for a test case on intelligent design. They wanted to take it all the way to the Supreme Court. The problem was that, after the plaintiffs filed suit, the lawyers wanted to get this into the court record. The newspaper accounts had quoted them. The public record was a problem. So, somebody had to come up with the idea that they never said "creationism."

OR: You actually found TV footage of Buckingham talking about creationism and brought that to the lawyers. Talk about that moment in the courtroom when Buckingham was shown that footage.

LL: Mike Argento, a fellow reporter, referred to it as the "Homer Simpson moment" where Bill Buckingham was shown the tape and Steve Harvey was questioning him. The whole time on the stand, Buckingham said, "I never talked about creationism." And then they showed the tape and Steve just kind of turns to Bill, waiting for a response from him. There was just silence, and everybody in the courtroom was waiting. And he says, "Well see, that was because the newspapers kept saying I was talking about creationism even though I wasn't so when the TV camera was thrust in my face, I was concentrating so hard on not saying creationism that I said creationism when I meant to say intelligent design." That's why Argento called it the "Homer Simpson moment": Don't say creationism, don't say creationism. Doh. To this day Bill Buckingham still maintains that that's what happened. It's just amazing to me that somebody can just deny, deny, deny. Maybe he has even convinced himself at this point. I don't know.

OR: In order to assert that they had never said "creationism," they had to assert that the two local reporters who had covered the school board meetings were, essentially, liars. Did you or anyone else pose the question to school board members, "How could you do this to these guys?"

LL: I actually asked Dick Thompson, the attorney for the Thomas More Law Center, "What's your position on the 9th Commandment?" It was absurd to think that these reporters had made up anything, but yet that's what we were being told. We were supposed to treat that as no different than the fact that the school board members claimed they were telling the truth. It's that notion of "fair and balanced" -- "we print one side, and we print the other side, and that's it."

That's why I was so happy when I found the tape, because it allowed some context to come in. I will tell you that when the reporters were both testifying, they bore this slander with such grace. I was glad they testified, even though we journalists don't want to go on the stand ever. But in the end they were basically allowed to face their accusers. I know that Margaret Talbot with the New Yorker talked about how emotional she got watching them testify. The editor for the one of the local reporters said she didn't breathe the whole time that Heidi (Bernhard-Bubb, the reporter) was on the stand.

OR: Throughout the book, the plaintiffs, and particularly the lawyers, try to wrap their minds around the lying that goes on. At on point, you write that (plaintiffs' attorney Eric) Rothschild wondered whether it was possible that Alan Bonsell, among others, had convinced himself that what he was telling the truth.

LL: During the whole trial, Alan Bonsell would sit there in the courtroom, wearing this serene smile on his face. He'd spread out his arms and lean back, seeming so assured. Then it's finally his turn to testify. It's pretty obvious at this point that there are some serious issues because Bill Buckingham and others had testified before him and had not been honest. He gets on the stand, and he's chewing gum. He turned to the judge, and said, "What the court needs to understand." I just remember sitting there and thinking, "Oh no, he didn't. He did not just look a federal judge in the eye and lie and blame the reporters."

I was stunned. Judge (John E.) Jones never changed his facial expression, but he did hold (Bonsell's) gaze. When Steve Harvey had finished cross-examining him, it was really obvious that Bonsell had lied in his depositions, and that's when Judge Jones asked to see the depositions and compare it to others. Bonsell seemed like he was the only person in the courtroom who was unaware of the seriousness of what was happening. He continued to rock in his chair back and forth and was still chewing his gum. Everybody else was looking around the courtroom at each other like, what is going on here? I was looking over at the plaintiffs' attorneys, wondering, Is this normal? Does this happen?
Meanwhile, as Judge Jones was reading the documents that showed Bonsell had lied, his face was getting redder and redder. Alan seemed like this blissful gazelle, drinking at the water while the lion is stalking him across the savanna.

OR: Throughout the book, the narrative of the trial is woven together with that of your relationship with your father. During the trial, you had these daily conversations with your father about the principles of what was going on, and you'd frequently disagree -- one of you hanging up on the other, and then trying all over again the next day. Toward the end of the book, when your father's health is declining, you find yourself having trouble saying, "I'm a Christian." How did this trial affect your sense of faith?

LL: I wrestled with how much of my father to include in the book. One of the main reasons I did was because I wanted people to understand that I'm not anti-Christian. I loved my father dearly, and he had many great qualities. He also had many flaws, but he practiced his faith as I think he was supposed to do it.

As a writer, I didn't feel like I had a lot of redeeming qualities to present on behalf of Alan Bonsell and Bill Buckingham in terms of the way they presented themselves during the trial and at school board meetings. I wanted people to understand that there are people who do practice their faith and who would not lie in the name of Jesus. I will say a lot of things about my dad, but he would not lie in the name of Jesus. He had the courage of his convictions.

In terms of my faith, ultimately, I had been becoming less of a believer over time. One thing I learned from this experience is that you can't be responsible for other people's fears. It breaks my heart, and I kind of wish I would have continued to pretend to be a Christian right up until my father's death because then he could have died believing that he would be with me again. Maybe that would have given him some peace but ultimately, when someone used to ask me, "Are you saved?" I would always pretend. I don't know why I did that, but I will never do it again. When people ask me, I'm very honest that I don't consider myself a believer. It doesn't matter if it's a loved one or a stranger.

OR: You felt very emotional about the trial, and your father's health. You describe your heart being full, and the need to speak with people about your conflicted thoughts. I thought it was interesting that you made the distinction: Some people you spoke to wanted to save your soul, but you say they weren't really interested in your heart.

LL: I did turn to [local pastor] Ed Rowand at one point because I was so emotionally raw. I found that when I'd want to discuss things like that, as soon as I said I wasn't a believer, he lost interest in me. I was irredeemable I guess; I wasn't on the fence.

OR: Among scientists, there simply is no "controversy" over intelligent design and evolution. You pose the question in your book, "So why isn't the message getting through to the public?" In some ways, you blame journalism -- and you cite an instance in which you had words with your editor over "fair and balanced" coverage.

LL: That was awful. There is this notion that you have to be careful that you're not taking a side, and I understand that that's important to journalism, but at the same time, I honestly believe that if we just take two sides and devote equal space to each, that we are lying. It's is our job to inform readers. They need to come away with more information, not be more confused. Journalism is in disarray today.

I think that's of course what happened with the Iraq War, and I think that's what's happening with so many issues.

If someone were to go back and take a look at my first couple of stories, they'd probably see that they were pretty even. But that's because I hadn't done enough homework, and by "doing homework," I mean gathering information from both sides and sifting through and weighing the evidence. This "fair and balanced" approach makes us like a sponge: We're supposed to just soak up the information and then wring it back out. But then we haven't accumulated any knowledge. That's crazy: It's denying everything I've learned. That night, my editor Randy tried to get me to change the lead because he thought we were piling too much on intelligent design. I was really scared because I thought he would take me off the story if I didn't agree, and there I was, three-quarters of the way through the trial ... but I also knew I couldn't lie, and that's what it would have amounted to.

OR: Throughout the book, you show how "intelligent design" has been put forth in various ever-changing guises. The plaintiffs' lawyers found earlier drafts of the textbook the school board was looking to get into the classroom, "Of Pandas and People." These drafts showed that, as each progressive phase of ID had been debunked, the editors of the textbook had cut and paste a newer term -- thus an error in a 1987 draft of the textbook in an attempt to replace creationism: "cdesign proponentsists."

LL: One scientist, Nick Matzke, can pronounce it the best. He calls it the transitional fossil.

OR: It really is the evolution of intelligent design, isn't it?

LL: When I write about it, I try not to beat that metaphor too hard, but it's really inescapable. Every time they get smacked down by the courts, they have to revamp what they're saying. But what's interesting is that they want to get it into science classes so much, the end result is that they water down their belief system. That's why a lot of people say that intelligent design is not only not science, it's also really bad theology.

OR: What surprised me is that, after the court adjourned, you immediately decided to go on a creationist-inspired road trip. It seemed like there was this curiosity that kept driving you.

LL: I had a writer friend who told me that when you can't let go of an issue, you know you need to write. That may have been the case with me. I had read all about these creationist museums and places, and I really wanted to see what they were, what were they espousing. Two weeks alone in the car was also a way to process all the information. But, again, I just found the same arguments over and over again.

I did do my homework researching the creationist side, and I'm proud that I spent a lot of time hearing their arguments and weighing them against the science. But it does bother me how divided we are. I just don't understand, and I spend a lot of time talking to my husband about why we can't come together with the fundamentalists and evangelicals. I don't know how we can. That's really the conclusion that I came to when I returned home. I thought that maybe I could find some common ground. I use tectonic plates as the metaphor. While I was driving, I was thinking about how fascinating the geography and geology of this country is, tectonic plates shifting and pushing up mountains. And a lot of fundamentalists aren't interested in that. So I don't know where the common ground is. I guess that's a sad ending for a book, but I haven't figured out where we can have common ground.

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See more stories tagged with: religion, creationism, intelligent design

Onnesha Roychoudhuri is a San Francisco-based writer and editor. She has written for AlterNet, The American Prospect, Salon, MotherJones, Truthdig, In These Times, Huffington Post and Women's eNews.

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Why wouldn't they lie?
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Jun 20, 2008 12:08 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They've already bought into one of the biggest.

jdfu!

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Common Ground
Posted by: Jo1028 on Jun 20, 2008 4:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the common ground is simple, and even many religious scientists can believe it: the evolutionary process is the way that the universe was created. Then those who need a Prime Mover to push the first button can be satisfied and those who don't have the Big Bang...

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» Seek Common Ground Posted by: pete ess
» RE: Nightgaunt Posted by: Setnakt
» RE: Common Ground Posted by: Bibsisis
» Not all... Posted by: Bbear41
no kidding
Posted by: grmartin on Jun 20, 2008 5:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
H. Hugo is right. Fundamentalism is a house of cards, and lacking logical arguement, we are left with the lies, which then need to be protected by additional lies.

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Religious fundies love Social/Economic Darwinism but they don't want you to know that.
Posted by: maxpayne on Jun 20, 2008 7:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As if education hasn't languished enough already for the past 3 decades, this one's just another nail in the coffin if not the final one.

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Help!!
Posted by: Bayardtom on Jun 20, 2008 7:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a weird time in our country right now. There seem to be at least two vociferous groups talking incessantly about religeon and prayer in the schools. Why do we have to hear about this? Our country was based on the separation of church and state. That was the idea - that no one religeon had the power to hold sway over any other. I am so sick of hearing the "born again Christians" talking about the rest of us being evil and being denied access to Heaven. That is not the God I was taught to believe.

As a child of ten I had a coversation with a friend of the family, a Catholic, about a story in the bible. She and I had a strong difference of opinion about the meaning of the story. I stated that it was just my interpretation of the story. Her retort startled me. She remanded me strongly that I had no right to interpret the bible; that was the sole right of the priest. My smart ass retort was that I had been given a brain and I thought that God wanted me to use it.
My thought is that Darwin used his brain rather well and we should all be allowed to use our brains in whatever capacity we choose. That is the idea about our country that seems to have gotten lost in the nasty shuffle about religion in the schools. Leave it out!!

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» RE: Help!! Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Help!! Posted by: john mont
» RE: Help!! Posted by: Bibsisis
» Definition of a fundamentalist... Posted by: Nigelthebriton
Toby
Posted by: Toby on Jun 20, 2008 7:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is high time we took the battle to the fundies rather than always reacting to their attacks. Why aren't we gay's picketing evengelical churches and weddings? Why aren't we suing them for child abuse when the fill kids heads with lies, distortions and myths? We probably wouldn't win such a case but the publicity would be worth it. Why aren't we organizing boycots of fundie-friendly corporations (long list!)There is a lot more we could do pro-actively. We need a revived Act Up.

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» RE: Toby Posted by: Bibsisis
Lutherans
Posted by: Gregory Kruse on Jun 20, 2008 7:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I feel fortunate to have been raised as a Lutheran. Lutherans have respect for logic and science, but don't depend upon them totally. When speaking on the subject of life in general, I often preface my remarks with "if there is such a thing as a God". Christians who object(vehemently)to my saying that, do so out of fear that there may be such a thing as a God who will punish them for doubting. That's absurd and totally emotional. Apparently my brain is constructed in such a way that it produces no such fear, but has a capacity to hope that what it doesn't know (such as, is my knowledge being saved?) is somehow possible to know and that the answer is YES. Other brains are like other galaxies, and the prospect of changing brains is like the prospect of delivering flowers to Andromeda. This is why Lutheranism is in decline. We refuse to assuage the fears of others by making up lies to comfort them. Perhaps another movement is in the works to nurture brains like mine in the future, but there is little evidence to suggest that. That's what faith and hope are for.

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» RE: Lutherans Posted by: dkm
» RE: Lutherans Posted by: Bibsisis
Repeating something from the 1930"S??
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Jun 20, 2008 8:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"He used an electrostatic device in science class to burn the shape of the cross on this Catholic kid's forearm. The parents were afraid to stand up to this."

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» The family has filed suit Posted by: dudelette
Patience, education and no condescension.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jun 20, 2008 8:47 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We live in a Republic. People have a right to see their preferences reflected in government. They are taxed; they are owed the same representation as anyone else, within the bounds of our Constitution, which can also be amended to reflect the wishes of the citizenry.

It's sad that superstition can be allowed to supplant science. That doesn't mean we give up on our fellows, or make them our personal demons, or go on a secondary witch hunt against them for their sacrilege against science. We must be patient, forgiving, and always willing to take the opportunity to educate where there is a need.

Open-mindedness has a knack of winning out. Be knowledgeable, and refrain from being abusive with that knowledge. Your fellow citizens need help to see the truth, not your scorn.

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» One point..... Posted by: mjabele
Noble Lies And Nobler Truths
Posted by: QQOblivion on Jun 20, 2008 10:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hmmm... Didn't Neocon-inspiring philosopher Leo Strauss promote the idea of the "noble lie"?

Problem is, as with both Neocon lies and Fundy lies, these lies are the opposite of noble.

On the other hand, science seeks truth. That is its definition. It invites critique and analyses and experimentation. While religion most often invites blind-faith and superstition.

Note to religious zealots: Just saying your view is the truth doesn't make it so. Can you PROVE you are right? If you can, then I will gladly follow Jesus or Allah or Yahweh or Whomever. But until then, science has done the best job at proving it is the closest thing to absolute truth. That is a fact. Deal with it.

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"The Family"
Posted by: manderson on Jun 20, 2008 10:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Been reading "The Family", by Jeff Sharlet, and a lot of Fundie bullshit didn't make sense until I started on this tome. Creationism seems like part of the campaign to keep the masses: to whom the muscular Christianity of Power and Money deems as unworthy of redemption and only worthy of exploitation: stupid and working like dogs so that the "true believers" (i.e. those willing to exploit, use, and kill) can get rich and convince themselves that they feel humble about it. I have heard it described, in another way, as "Austrian Thinking" in reference to a certain leader of a certain European country in the mid-twentieth century. Don't let them get away with it---think and talk!

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Christian philosophy
Posted by: Gil Gamesh on Jun 20, 2008 10:45 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1 Some things are more important than the truth
2 The Lie must be protected at all costs
3 The Lie is to be perpetrated

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» RE: Christian philosophy Posted by: terrymo
Seen the movie "Dogma"?
Posted by: frantaylor on Jun 20, 2008 1:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's mostly the tired old Jay And Silent Bob routine, but there are some thought-provoking tidbits in there concerning the conflict between reason and belief.

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» RE: Seen the movie "Dogma"? Posted by: phatkhat
Separation of church and state
Posted by: Bibsisis on Jun 20, 2008 7:48 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If government would stick to "state" matters without invoking religion or thinking they must say if they're religious or not, and if education would stick to education without religion--taxpayers support public schools whether they are religious or not--we would not have this problem.

People who want their children to attend religious schools should do it at their own expense, not at the expense of public taxpayers who of are many religions or none.

Parents should teach their children at home about what they believe, or if they believe nothing religious. Public schools are not in the business of teaching religion, period.

So, bringing up the business of creationism, synonym for intelligent design, has NO place in public schools. If you want your children to believe as you do, send them to your religious school of choice. If you want your children to be taught about the variety of religions in the world and to then think for themselves, teach them what you think and allow them public schools. One who knows nothing about religion since it permeates the entire world is culturally illiterate. That doesn't mean they must be religious, just that they know what they all say and have the knowledge to think and choose whether they follow a religion or choose none. That's what education is about, and not this bullshit the rightwing neocons are trying to put into public schools; no matter, they have their own private schools, they want to force their beliefs onto everyone!

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Hear,Hear,Toby
Posted by: GPFrank on Jun 20, 2008 8:20 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Right on! We should confront those churches by
picketing with demands that we teach science
and government in their Sunday schools.

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» RE: Hear,Hear,Toby Posted by: Bibsisis
Religion is nonsense
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jun 20, 2008 10:46 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a sophomore undergraduate student in Physics, your homework in Probability
and Statistics class may include figuring out when the second coming would be
required, assuming that the bible was 100% true in the year zero. That is, when
would the bible be down to 50% true? The popular and professors' answer in
1965 was the year 500. The true answer: A friend of mine was born and raised in
Budapest, Hungary. As an adult, he came here and stayed. After 25 years, he
visited his home town of Budapest. He was unable to communicate with his high
school classmates because the Hungarian language had changed so much. The
correct answer is less than 25 years. The first gospel was not written down until
50 years after the alleged events and then in a different language. The people who
told the story were at about the same level of civilization as "wild Indians", I mean
Native Americans before Columbus got here. We have all played or seen played
the game called "Telephone" in which a story is passed down a line of re-tellers.
By the Sixth re-telling, the story has no resemblance to the original. The gospel
story had to have been re-told at least 6 times before it was mis-translated the first
time. [Note that whoever wrote it down the first time was free to write whatever
he wanted to. The storytellers were illiterate and unable to check his written text
by reading it. Besides that, he wrote in Greek rather than Aramaic.] Conclusion:
There is no truth anywhere in the bible, and there never was. There is no way to
know what "jesus" or "mohammed" or any other such character actually said or
did.

ALL of the jurisdictions that were formerly in the jurisdiction of religion have
been taken over by Science. There is no longer a need to debate the issue.
Religion is an unfortunate side effect of having evolved from a chimpanzee-like
animal in a very brief 6 or 7 million years. "God" will not save us from the
consequences of global warming or an asteroid impact or a tornado because there
is no such critter as "god.". Ethics and morality are instinctive, not derived from
religion. Female instinct has greater force in morality than male instinct because
the female is in command of the sexual encounter. Look up "Sociobiology". The
origin of the Universe is the subject of Cosmology which is part of astronomy
which is part of the science of physics.
Religion is a SCAM. ANY religion, there are 10,000 to choose from at any one
time. People keep inventing new religions [for the benefit of the "prophet," of
course] and forgetting other religions. ALL preachers, priests, imams, rabbis,
iatolas, etc. belong in jail for "grand theft, bunko type".

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» RE: eligion is nonsense Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: eligion is nonsense Posted by: yale
Religion is caused by insanity.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jun 20, 2008 10:56 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is caused by any one or more of about half a dozen mental illnesses.
The truth about religion can be found in these books:

"The Neuropsychological bases of god beliefs" Dr. Michael A. Persinger MD,
psychiatrist 1987 "Religious people are just like my temporal lobe patients"

"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind" Julian
Jaynes Professor, Harvard University 1976 "Religious people are just like
schizophrenic patients"

"The Psychiatric Interview in Clinical Practice" Roger A. MacKinnon, M.D.,
Robert Michels, M.D. W. B. Saunders Co. 1971 "Religiosity is a common
symptom [of] schizophrenic patients"

"The God delusion" by Richard Dawkins. "Religion is caused by a kind of
computer virus that infects the living computer, the human brain."

"The Science of Good and Evil" by Michael Shermer, 2004 "Morality and Ethics
are now in the jurisdiction of Science and greatly improved thereby."

Many books in the new science called "Sociobiology": Morals and ethics are
instinctive and they evolved.

"God: The Failed Hypothesis" by Victor Stenger. Scientific proof that god does
not exist.

"The God Part of the Brain" by Matthew Alper 1996. "The USA is anomolusly
religious because many early founder groups were religiously insane and fleeing
prosecution in Europe. Religion is a genetic disorder."

"The Accidental Mind" by David J. Linden, 2007 Belknap Press of Harvard
University Press. Religion is caused by the extreme klugeyness of the "designed"
by evolution brain. In particular, the narrative creation system cannot be turned
off. It generates false narratives that are believed by the generating person. This is
seen in experiments done in the laboratory. This book has the best explanation of
resistance to evolution: "There has also been an assumption that if one accepts the
idea that life developed without divine intervention, it necessarily follows that all
aspects of religious thought must be rejected. Those who take this line of
argument to extremes argue that when religious thought is rejected moral and
social codes will degenerate and "the law of the jungle" will be all that is left. It is
imagined by religious fundamentalists that those who do not share their particular
religious faith are incapable of leading moral lives." These suppositions are not
true many times over. Linden later mentions that the creationists [intelligent
design advocates] are exactly 180 degrees wrong rather than just a little wrong.
Being exactly wrong, they are unable to unlearn their error. See Sociobiology or
Sciobio.

"Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism" edited by Petto &
Godfrey, 2007. The ID and creationist crowd are trying to do away with science.
They see science as a "godless religion." Science is a process, not a religion.

"Manufacturing Belief" by Lewis Wolpert
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/05/15/lewis_wolpert/

"The End of Faith" and "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris

"Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon", by Daniel Dennett
Let's do scientific research on religion and find out what causes it.

"Origins of the Modern Mind" by Merlin Donald 1991 "So what did you expect
from a brain that is based on the Chimpanzee brain?

"Atheism, A Case Against God" by George Smith

"God is not Great; how religion poisons everything" by Christopher Hitchens, 2007

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» RE: eligion is caused by insanity. Posted by: TheNamelessCity
Nature is the Only authority. Do your own experiments.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jun 20, 2008 11:04 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nature isn't just the final authority on truth, Nature is
the Only authority. There are zero human authorities. Scientists do not
vote on what is the truth. There is only one vote and Nature owns it.
We find out what Nature's vote is by doing Scientific [public and
replicable] experiments. Scientific [public and replicable] experiments
are the only source of truth. [To be public, it has to be visible to other
people in the room. What goes on inside one person's head isn't public
unless it can be seen on an X-ray or another instrument.]
Science is a simple faith in Scientific experiments and a simple absolute
lack of faith in everything else. Why? Science works. You are reading
this on a desktop computer, a product of engineering made possible by
Quantum Mechanics. Religion doesn't work.

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Christianity is Not Unified Against Science
Posted by: Tara Downer on Jun 21, 2008 7:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although a great many people believe that Christians all share the same belief systems, nothing could be further from the truth. Thank "god", I was raised in The Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. Unlike most other Sunday Schools, we were taught from the 4th grade that the Bible was allegorical. We were also taught that god was one thing, no matter what he/she/it was called by others. Therefore, evolution provided no conflicts with our religious beliefs. We defined ourselves as Christians by committing to trying to follow what we know of Jesus' teachings, all the while understanding that during his lifetime, science was in its infancy. We generally saw Jesus as an early secular humanist. And, if there was a judgment day for each of us, it would revolve around our actions and not our words.

Since we don't share a common liturgy, there may be churches out there that don't take such a liberal view as ours does, but I do know that our missionaries do not go out to spread the gospel. You'll find them giving out immunizations, digging latrines, and helping others in scientific and secular matters. They are only to reveal why they are doing these things, if asked. Their answers are to be given with the realization that the people they are helping may have had their own religion for centuries before the name of Jesus ever appeared.

Therefore, it is important for the commentators and writers understand that Christianity is not an unilateral term. Christians come in multiple flavors. Again, many of us accept the science of evolution and find no conflict with our beliefs.

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I was educated by the Jesuits,
Posted by: Longdream on Jun 21, 2008 3:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
who count among the sons of their Order the transcendent Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, whose life work as an anthropologist and theologian was to contemplate and write about a Christian perspective on evolution.

I'm now a member of the Orthodox Church--the body which separated from the Roman Catholic Church mainly about Papal Infallibility.

I have always been taught about the mystery of faith, and have always been taught never to say "never", and to understand that people who are still bound to material earth cannot have all the answers to matters of faith.

Orthodoxy has no central authority, and respects the conscience of an individual who, in his heart of hearts, holds an honest belief as right. Our bishops and Metropolitans are advisors and interpreters, not law-givers.

I am "allowed" to think, and be considered right with my congregation and my God.

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» RE: Galileo Posted by: Longdream
» RE: let's remember Posted by: Longdream
Know a tree by its fruit
Posted by: Agki on Jun 22, 2008 10:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"You can know a tree by its fruit."

Their God isn't Jesus, it's the Father of Lies.

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lies about stories about the past
Posted by: luzmejor on Jul 3, 2008 12:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Science has unwittingly given the cult of personality religion a reason to squirm. The whole idea about pretending to be a Bible authority is to gain the power of the people's confidence.

People who have cobbled together a "designer" version of apologetics seem afraid of looking foolish in public. Science definitely makes them look foolish because creationists are the very people who have not studied much in that area.

At this point in time, they are stubbornly trying to use a few of the more basic science facts to disprove science itself.

But all that a scientist need do is to observe that everyone knows approximately when and by what people the Bible was written. It does contain well-known wisdom and ethical principles. But there is no way that it has been proved scientific. The most that can be said about it is that is seems to be ancient literature. Arguments proving the Bible is scientific should be required of Creationists who want it taught as science. It is silly to let them argue about scientific principles versus bible verses.

The First Amendment says essentially that we are free to believe whatever religion we like. It also means that we must allow the same privileges to everyone else.
That ought to be enough religious liberty for anyone on earth.

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It's religious addiction you're dealing with
Posted by: rminor on Jul 5, 2008 2:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Again and again, the author's befuddlement is due to dealing with people for whom religion functions as an addiction. Finding a solution does not involve finding common ground but dealing as one would with an addict. See When Religion Is an Addiction, a book previously recommended on AlterNet.

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