COMMENTS: 147
Does Sarah Silverman Suck?
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Cringe-worthy comedy is nothing new: Lenny Bruce and Andy Kaufman's respective strains of humor were less about eliciting laughter than provoking discomfort as a means to achieve the funny. But since the 1990 premiere of Seinfeld, comedy that unsettles has become the comedians' lingua franca. Practitioners like Larry David -- who created Seinfeld and Curb Your Enthusiasm -- have taken this dark, cutting, often self-deprecating humor mainstream. In Curb, the joke's usually on David, so you feel a little less guilty for laughing. English comics Ricky Gervais (The BBC's The Office) and Sacha Baron Cohen (Da Ali G Show, Borat) and American female comedians Laura Kightlinger (The Minor Accomplishments of Jackie Woodman) and Kathy Griffin (My Life on the D List) level their sardonic humor at particular targets -- show business and celebrity, Los Angeles, xenophobes, anti-Semites, racists, aspiring homeboys, the middle class, fashionistas.
But then there is Sarah Silverman (Jesus Is Magic, The Sarah Silverman Program): with her puppy-dog eyes, childish shrug, grab-the-crotch bravado and dopey, oops-did-I-just-fart grin (I list these qualities with affection -- these are her selling points), the lacerating Levite revels in being as aimless with her spiteful humor as a kid with an Uzi water gun, hitting everyone in sight for no particular reason. The bigger the taboo -- race, genocide, sex, abortion, bestiality -- the more viciously she'll dismantle it. In an interview with Nightline, she pleaded social consciousness. Her jokes aren't racist; they're about racism. "In my mind, the person I am onstage is me, but there's a kind of ignorance coupled with arrogance. I see that reflected in our country." Does she really believe her comedy is serving a larger purpose? Or is she trying to issue herself a get-out-of-jail-free pass?
There are many enlightened, progressive-minded people who either boldly or discreetly cop to laughing with her. I am forced to admit that I've not only watched Jesus Is Magic and her occasionally funny series The Sarah Silverman Program but variously giggled and then felt sickened by her coltish cunt-teuse persona. I both laughed and gagged at her deranged, catchy ditties about a farting contest gone wrong ("I just wanted to be like the others, but I pooped instead"), a comically bad stab at lesbian feminist folk and a "love song" that runs through nearly every cultural stereotype our culture has to offer ("I love you more than bears love honey/I love you more than Jews love money/I love you more than Asians are good at math/I love you even if you're not hip/I love you even if black people don't tip"). She just as frequently throws her own people under the bus with shtick about being raped by a doctor (which is "bittersweet for a Jewish girl") and her Holocaust survivor grandmother (who went to one of the "better" concentration camps and got a tattoo that read "bedazzled"). Silverman recounts a story about her young niece telling her that Hitler was responsible for the deaths of 60 million Jews. "Aunt Sarah" corrects her, but her niece wants to know the difference. "Uh, the difference is that 60 million is unforgivable, young lady."
The second season of The Sarah Silverman Program premieres October 3 on Comedy Central, and its first episode gets right to the heart of the Sarah Silverman quandary. The hilarious opening scene features an irate Sarah and her sweet elderly chihuahua, Douglas, stomping down the long aisle of an enormous church, where they interrupt the service to speak to the "manager" (the minister) about the loud bells that have awakened her early on a Sunday morning. There, she meets two dowdy women -- Sarah assumes they're lesbians -- who lure her into a murderous crusade against "baby-killing" with their homemade lemon bars. Sarah thinks "assassinating babies" is wrong and becomes their fiercest new recruit, until she discovers they're referring to abortion, not the shooting of infants. That's the funny part. She pushes it beyond funny with a nostalgic montage of her three abortions and the good times she shared over the years with the jolly doctor and receptionist at the women's health clinic. Of course she's making fun of the ridiculous image Operation Rescue has of the prochoice movement, but she's so flip about it that it actually feels dangerous, not provocative.
Is she or isn't she funny? Is she genuinely mean, or is she making a commentary about American ignorance? Any confusion I had over these questions was cleared up by her monologue at MTV's Video Music Awards, during which she unrelentingly reamed Britney Spears's God-awful performance and referred to Spears's two little boys as "the most adorable mistakes." Was Silverman so desperate for a laugh that she had to kick a girl who is so far down that her innumerable disasters are covered in the press hourly? Her apology, which appeared in the Associated Press, is a testament to the fact that the "ignorance coupled with arrogance" that she claims belongs to her alter ego comes from deep within her soul. Though she claims to have been embarrassed by the joke, she believed it to have been "innocuous ... it never occurred to me that would be deemed hurtful or over the line." Silverman declares in Jesus Is Magic, "I'm a comedian -- that's what I do." If comedy means pissing people off and loving that about oneself, appearing more self-entitled than self-aware and spearheading an even more discomforting subgenre of comedy -- then Mazel Tov, dahlink!
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: vox persona on Oct 6, 2007 1:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But all in all, I don't see the Alternate audience as her demographic (I may be wrong); all the more reason I'm puzzled by the choice of this article to post. Must be a slow news day....
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Oct 6, 2007 2:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bad thing about her is that she can be annoying and she does bathroom stuff. Yuck...
I don't think she really has to justify her humor as having a bigger purpose, or as some back-handed way of exposing the ignorance in our society or some crap like that. Saying that just makes things worse, and sounds like she's backing down to political correctness, or apologizing for what she does.
Funny is funny. And comedy should be funny. Comics who try too hard to be political, or to avoid insulting the growing array of oversensitive religions, minority groups, majority groups, etc., usually suck.
» RE: Yes and no
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Yes and no
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Yes and no
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: charles000 on Oct 6, 2007 3:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: Sarah Silverman sucks - absolutely
Posted by: Moira61
» RE: Sarah Silverman sucks - absolutely
Posted by: donneek
» Freedom of expression
Posted by: BlueTigress
» the self evident proof you are incorrect.
Posted by: Beatnik
» RE: Sarah Silverman sucks - absolutely
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Sarah Silverman sucks - absolutely
Posted by: dbuskirk1
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Posted by: calibandita on Oct 6, 2007 3:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: marxalot on Oct 6, 2007 4:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: She's like Cartman
Posted by: deaudonnee
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Posted by: willie.horton on Oct 6, 2007 4:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: She's brilliant, if too edgy for many
Posted by: mizani
» RE: She's brilliant, if too edgy for many
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: ErHoff on Oct 6, 2007 4:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: goeswithness on Oct 6, 2007 6:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not big into shocking people's sensibilities just to do that. That seems like just another part of our increasingly insensitive and mean culture. So where's the accomplishment there?
» RE: Funny occasionally...
Posted by: kepstein7777
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Posted by: LMNOP on Oct 6, 2007 6:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She’s ignorant and superficial to beat the band, like Alicia Silverstone’s character in Clueless. She is sociable, too, but that’s where the similarity ends, as she is also sociopathic, having no real affection for her sister, her dog, or anyone else.
She is extreme in her narcissism, even when supposedly trying to help others (such as people with AIDS or a young beauty contest aspirant). And she’s over-confident to the point of smugness, cockiness and swagger in the manner of His Decidership.
Her sense of her own cuteness is exaggerated, and she uses her cuteness and sexuality to manipulate people. She’s another typical self-indulgent, immature, (pseudoliberal in this case) American character with nothing to offer anybody else.
So, is this a repulsive character? Yeah, but it’s America’s repulsive character personified, as it is with other cultural icons that offend, like Beevis and Butthead did. So is Eric Cartman. So are the Married With Children family. So are Bart and Homer Simpson, and Hank Hill. All deeply imprinted with the stamp of American failure. All are failures intellectually, socially and spiritually. All are incomplete people.
So, I’d say Sarah and the rest are spot on. They are as sickening as American culture. I guarantee you that none of those characters, like Joe American, would give a rat’s ass about Iraqi children or global warming. Nicely done.
» RE: If she repulses you, that's good **WHY WATCH THE REPULSIVE?**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: If she repulses you, that's good **WHY WATCH THE REPULSIVE?**
Posted by: particle
» RE: If she repulses you, that's good **WHY WATCH THE REPULSIVE?**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: If she repulses you, that's good **WHY WATCH THE REPULSIVE?**
Posted by: particle
» RE: If she repulses you, that's good **WHY WATCH THE REPULSIVE?**
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: If she repulses you, that's good **WHY WATCH THE REPULSIVE?**
Posted by: maribelle
» Hey!
Posted by: kepstein7777
» Rusty Shackleford says hi
Posted by: LMNOP
» you sir, have TOTALLY nailed it.
Posted by: Beatnik
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Posted by: particle on Oct 6, 2007 7:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are you kidding me? Dead-without-a-laugh-track Seinfeld? Sure, throw out some names and pretend it's historically meaningful.
Look. You can be comedic and you can be "edgy". And sometimes, sometimes, edginess is humorous in and of itself. But it wears thin pretty quickly. When attempts at building tension overwhelm your comedy, you end up delivering empty material. Some people will laugh where they're supposed to, but that doesn't make it funny.
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Posted by: Frankstank on Oct 6, 2007 7:48 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe I should move to New York or something because if there are other women like her out there, I want to know about it!
» RE: Hotter than Tabasco sauce *OH FOR PETE'S SAKE*
Posted by: maribelle
» You sound humourless
Posted by: Frankstank
» RE: You sound humourless **Who cares about humor? Its all about sexiness, right?*
Posted by: maribelle
» I give you the promulgations of your highness, Maribelle
Posted by: MAD
» RE: Hotter than Tabasco sauce *OH FOR PETE'S SAKE*
Posted by: katyalynn
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Posted by: Cruella on Oct 6, 2007 8:26 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is she funny? Of course she is - to her fans - otherwise she wouldn't be on TV.
Is she un-funny? Of course, if it ain't your bag, it ain't your bag.
Is she offensive? Now that's a relevant question. She's not had much coverage over here in the UK so I'm not much qualified to answer but we do seem to have a trend towards offensive humour.
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Posted by: Bambi on Oct 6, 2007 8:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm gonna check her out in a couple years if she's still around. If she develops that sense of humor of hers, I think she'll be screaming funny.
» RE: I'm gonna check back later
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: mick3
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: yellow on Oct 6, 2007 9:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Naomi Klein kind of does the same thing
Posted by: Frankstank
» RE: Naomi Klein kind of does the same thing
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Voicedude on Oct 6, 2007 9:25 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like so many who think this (and mean-spirited dreck like Borat) is actually funny, she doesn't seem to know the difference between 'commentary' and shadenfruede coupled with sheer exploitation.
I'm glad someone else said it.
My watch says '14:59', Sarah. What've you got?
» She sucks like Borat?
Posted by: YogiBear
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» She's bringing back SHOCK VALUE for its own sake. SO WHAT??
Posted by: yellow
» Oh..I see.If a Black expresses that he thinks that the jew female silverman's 'comedy' is racist...
Posted by: ekipnrut
» KIP, You're more racist than Silverman. Silverman doesn't really hate anyone. You hate many people.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Her ass ain't nothin' but trash......!!!
Posted by: morticia
» Typical.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Typical.
Posted by: morticia
» Ahhhh....agent MRT37...
Posted by: ekipnrut
» Agent Mxyzptlk....as I live and draw breath.
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Agent Mxyzptlk....as I live and draw breath.
Posted by: particle
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Posted by: newtype_alpha on Oct 6, 2007 9:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't get me wrong, political backwardness can be funny as hell, but that's only because satire HAS to break the rules in order to be relevant. Of course, Sarah Silverman would probably be better off whoring for shock laughs in front of a live and completely unsuspecting audience; maybe somebody should offer her a leading in the next Jackass movie?
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Posted by: US Citizen on Oct 6, 2007 9:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Jimmy Kimmel right-wing???
Posted by: morticia
» Good Point.
Posted by: yellow
» RE:'good liberals'..........EXACTLY!!!!!!
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Jimmy Kimmel right-wing???
Posted by: US Citizen
» I literally cannot think of a response to this..
Posted by: Beatnik
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Posted by: kk33deg on Oct 6, 2007 10:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
BTW, I think what Sarah said about Britney Spears was damn well funny. She just said out loud what the tabloids, CNN and Fox imply every day. Moreover, what she said is almost certainly factual - I would bet a pile of cash that Britney's kids are mistakes.
» Lot of sad-ass people out there
Posted by: Frankstank
» nice try
Posted by: Phenix
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Posted by: Gravitas on Oct 6, 2007 10:30 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: What does she have in common with Ann Colter?
Posted by: kk33deg
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Posted by: scheherezade on Oct 6, 2007 11:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She's not funny. Or witty. She's stupid, she's boring, and the show's excruciating to sit through.
It's really rather simple: if Silverman's waste of airspace was indeed funny, we'd know it because people would be [i]laughing[/i] at it, instead of debating the possible presence of humor with the wrong side of our brains!!! Are you kidding me?
Media execs have a long-running agenda to make sure we understand it's the man's job to be funny. That's why 'female comedians' who make it to the air are seldom actually witty in any way, shape or form.
Remember She-TV? The only funny cast member was...the guy, Nick Bakay, who got all the best lines.
When you write funny for women, or let funny women on the air, you risk empowering the whole race to break out of existing beauty requirements. And that's not territory Hollywood movers and shakers are going to be venturing into any time soon.
Thus only beautiful women are allowed on the air. And since beautiful women are never funny -- they lack the background experiences that create a sense of irony -- ergo, says Hollywood, women as a gender aren't funny.
We see lots of female comedians making fools of themselves, degrading themselves, reinforcing gender stereotypes and generally affirming the idea that humor's something women just don't quite have the brainpower to grasp. But female characters never get the witty lines, and funny women don't make it past casting.
I don't think it's an accident that the wittiest TV material usually ends up coming out of male mouths, when much scripting work goes to gays. It's not really in a gay man's best interest for men to suddenly see average women depicted as being attractive for something far more attainable than physical perfection.
Roseanne Barr was funny, until she jumped the shark. Now, the only really witty female allowed on TV is probably Wanda Sykes -- and she's slipped in under the radar because she's not blondie enough to threaten.
» RE: Don't overthink it
Posted by: mikelz
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Posted by: mikelz on Oct 6, 2007 11:51 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: Sarah Silverman - Hysterical Commentary on Personalities
Posted by: herronsmith
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Posted by: goldmarx on Oct 6, 2007 11:54 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Substitute the word 'erotic' for 'funny', and the whole tenor of the female anti-Silvermans sounds very familiar, indeed. It's well known that Sarah is pro-porn - she did a porn movie review for HEEB magazine last year, and hangs out with porn star Daphne Rosen.
So it's inevitable that some folks are ticked off by all that, but they don't want to say so openly because then it'll make them sound like the loons that they are, so they try to sound reasonable by saying, "Well, she's just not funny because I say so!" Of course, that's also pretty loony on the face of it, and the fact that Silverman can inspire that is testimony to her brilliance.
» Your point?
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: Your point?
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Sarah's Problem: She's Pro-Porn
Posted by: herronsmith
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Posted by: PeaceLove on Oct 6, 2007 12:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even though Silverman pokes fun at everyone, the real target of her character's hatred and dysfunction is herself. Thus, the core of the show (and her persona) is not comedy, but pain. She doesn't always nail it, but at least she's aiming ridiculously high. Brilliant work.
» RE: She's moved beyond comedian **FIRST YOU HAVE TO BE FUNNY**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: She's moved beyond comedian **FIRST YOU HAVE TO BE FUNNY**
Posted by: katyalynn
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Posted by: koolwoman on Oct 6, 2007 1:04 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Obscenity
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: munchhausen on Oct 6, 2007 1:27 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: VagusDoc on Oct 6, 2007 1:32 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: munchhausen on Oct 6, 2007 1:34 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: The Ann Coulter of Comedy
Posted by: Doubtom
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Posted by: eosrk on Oct 6, 2007 3:10 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: eosrk on Oct 6, 2007 3:13 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Johnny Hempseed on Oct 6, 2007 3:48 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ekipnrut on Oct 6, 2007 3:50 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Valley
check out her 'sea hag' rant (You KNOW who that must be) :O)
...This 'valley girl'..this is a funny girl..(assuming she IS a girl)
» How about an atheist physicist rapper?
Posted by: morticia
» Hold up!!!...Don Hazen..white and jew women of Alternet...
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Hold up!!!...Don Hazen..white and jew women of Alternet...
Posted by: morticia
» Some things are annoying....
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Some things are annoying....
Posted by: morticia
» RE:A comment deletion policy should be administered in an even handed NON RACIST manner....
Posted by: ekipnrut
» Hey - get a room you two!
Posted by: katyalynn
» RE: Hey - get a room you two!
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Hey - get a room you two!
Posted by: katyalynn
» RE:Oh..BTW katyalynn...you're either not very bright or you ought refine you 'lie/smear skills'
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Oh..BTW katyalynn...you're either not very bright or you ought refine you 'lie/smear skills'
Posted by: katyalynn
» RE: Oh....you poor dear...hit by lightning bolts...men of color...god knows what else...
Posted by: ekipnrut
» KIP is a sexist and anti-semite who hides behind "anti-zionism." Is "ZioJew woman a bigoted remark?
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Lies and selectively edited excerpts-out of context- from some of my posts... :O)
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Lies and selectively edited excerpts-out of context- from some of my posts... :O)
Posted by: katyalynn
» RE: See above post... :O)
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Lies and selectively edited excerpts-out of context- from some of my posts... :O)
Posted by: katyalynn
» RE: You really should ask about a change in meds or perhaps an increased dosage...K'? :O)
Posted by: ekipnrut
» Oh, I remember her/him now. One of yellow's friends from islamophobistan.(nm)
Posted by: justaguy
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Posted by: JimRooooo on Oct 6, 2007 4:29 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I turn her off. I even Tivo past the blurbs for her show.
But I would happily pork her.
» Ugh, you mention the Kimmel connection...
Posted by: defrag
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Posted by: antiapathy on Oct 6, 2007 6:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: WTF alternet???
Posted by: particle
» You LIE
Posted by: footman
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Posted by: l_m_n on Oct 6, 2007 6:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The question instead becomes: is she an inspired person with something to say about the American condition? Or is she a two-bit hack who accidentally touched upon deeper subjects? Are we reading what we want to read into a 1-dimensional character, or does Silverman know what she's doing?
But if it's working, does it matter? If her reflection of American life is valid (even if it is an unfunny imitation), then there is something to be learned. Because there is no taboo she won't touch.
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Posted by: snideelf on Oct 6, 2007 7:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She's got writers now, so you can't blame her completely.
If she does porn, I'll watch.
There is also a popular redhead, Kathy something, I don't understand her success at all.
She was the one who once appeared on Seinfeld and called him the devil.
There is another woman from late-night cable who just flat out insulted the audience every chance she got.
Example: So who are you here with tonight sir?
Your daughter?
So you're sleeping with your daughter?
Audience laughs.
Why were they laughing?
What it is is that people will come out and say that Silverman sucks and there will always be people who will go and see her now because they think she must be different or cutting edge.
She's not cutting anything.
Stand-up took a dive after Seinfeld.
Guess you just gotta wait for the next series of really funny comedians.
Hopefully they'll come around soon.
» Don't waste your time
Posted by: footman
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Posted by: footman on Oct 6, 2007 7:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gimme a break. Sarah Silvermann is like Southpark. Kind of funny sometimes, extremely shocking, and ok in small doses once in a while, but otherwise not really all as threatening as the religious nuts make it out to be when they get their panties in a twist about it.
This is the same. Getting your panties in a twist about Sarah Silvermann is pretty lame.
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Posted by: Beatnik on Oct 6, 2007 9:22 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: YogiBear on Oct 6, 2007 9:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: I dunno yogi..hang around her show's set....now don't overtly stalk...ya' never know...
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: I dunno yogi..hang around her show's set....now don't overtly stalk...ya' never know...
Posted by: YogiBear
» YES....and no WE weren't........
Posted by: ekipnrut
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Posted by: munchhausen on Oct 7, 2007 2:07 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: argyle on Oct 7, 2007 5:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: rosweed on Oct 7, 2007 5:49 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: medstudgeek on Oct 7, 2007 6:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Her shtick is that she looks like a nice, clean-cut young woman with a foul mouth. It's the disjunction between the speaker and the words.
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Posted by: profco on Oct 7, 2007 7:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: egibbs on Oct 7, 2007 7:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: I'd like to know...ANSWER: (probably) all of 'em....see if you're white ,you may
Posted by: ekipnrut
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Posted by: spanskmand on Oct 7, 2007 10:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It also explains why the New Left, yesterday's and today's version, created and propagated by Jews, will always fail miserably here in America, in Europe, and around the world. Jews, even atheistic Jews, hate Christian gentile society whether it be of the left or the right variety. Unwittingly their purpose is to tear down the Christian/Socratic deontological underpinnings of the West and replace them with Talmudic hucksterism and a contrariness of the splitting hairs variety.
Silverman is but a symptom of inordinate Jewish control over the media. The hatred of everything Christian and gentile convinces many on the Jewish left that in order to be "progressive" they must tear down the heart of Christian civilization, which is the family structure. Hence, abortion is great, divorce is liberating, homosexual perversions are acceptable, unruly hooligans masquerading as children are seen as "empowered".
» RE: ....irrelevant
Posted by: footman
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Posted by: sunrise on Oct 7, 2007 12:43 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: justaguy on Oct 7, 2007 6:19 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't find any of the "comedians" mentioned in the article very funny or witty. I guess if you're a totally self absorbed halfwit, other self absorbed halfwits laughing at their self absorbtion must seem like schadenfreude.
Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I should be more about me.
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Posted by: yellow on Oct 7, 2007 10:30 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» The Manichaean paranoia of the Ashkenazis is more frightening.
Posted by: justaguy
» I wish got as much money to lie as you do justacoward. Maybe I wouldn't have to drive cab so much...
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: thekatman on Oct 7, 2007 11:40 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Oct 8, 2007 2:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But she has the right to do and say what she wants and I have the right not to watch her. I apparently am in the minority because if no one watched her she would not be on the air.
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Posted by: lepidopteryx on Oct 8, 2007 5:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kel on Oct 8, 2007 6:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She picks the precarious ground to walk on and acts like its her domain and slides on it like nothing matters. And even though nothing does, I'd rather laugh while another tells me so.
She has a right to suck and she does.
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Posted by: Morgaine Swann on Oct 7, 2007 10:25 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: vox persona on Oct 6, 2007 1:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But all in all, I don't see the Alternate audience as her demographic (I may be wrong); all the more reason I'm puzzled by the choice of this article to post. Must be a slow news day....
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Oct 6, 2007 2:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bad thing about her is that she can be annoying and she does bathroom stuff. Yuck...
I don't think she really has to justify her humor as having a bigger purpose, or as some back-handed way of exposing the ignorance in our society or some crap like that. Saying that just makes things worse, and sounds like she's backing down to political correctness, or apologizing for what she does.
Funny is funny. And comedy should be funny. Comics who try too hard to be political, or to avoid insulting the growing array of oversensitive religions, minority groups, majority groups, etc., usually suck.
» RE: Yes and no
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Yes and no
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Yes and no
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: charles000 on Oct 6, 2007 3:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: Sarah Silverman sucks - absolutely
Posted by: Moira61
» RE: Sarah Silverman sucks - absolutely
Posted by: donneek
» Freedom of expression
Posted by: BlueTigress
» the self evident proof you are incorrect.
Posted by: Beatnik
» RE: Sarah Silverman sucks - absolutely
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Sarah Silverman sucks - absolutely
Posted by: dbuskirk1
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Posted by: calibandita on Oct 6, 2007 3:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: marxalot on Oct 6, 2007 4:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: She's like Cartman
Posted by: deaudonnee
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Posted by: willie.horton on Oct 6, 2007 4:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: She's brilliant, if too edgy for many
Posted by: mizani
» RE: She's brilliant, if too edgy for many
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: ErHoff on Oct 6, 2007 4:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: goeswithness on Oct 6, 2007 6:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not big into shocking people's sensibilities just to do that. That seems like just another part of our increasingly insensitive and mean culture. So where's the accomplishment there?
» RE: Funny occasionally...
Posted by: kepstein7777
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Posted by: LMNOP on Oct 6, 2007 6:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She’s ignorant and superficial to beat the band, like Alicia Silverstone’s character in Clueless. She is sociable, too, but that’s where the similarity ends, as she is also sociopathic, having no real affection for her sister, her dog, or anyone else.
She is extreme in her narcissism, even when supposedly trying to help others (such as people with AIDS or a young beauty contest aspirant). And she’s over-confident to the point of smugness, cockiness and swagger in the manner of His Decidership.
Her sense of her own cuteness is exaggerated, and she uses her cuteness and sexuality to manipulate people. She’s another typical self-indulgent, immature, (pseudoliberal in this case) American character with nothing to offer anybody else.
So, is this a repulsive character? Yeah, but it’s America’s repulsive character personified, as it is with other cultural icons that offend, like Beevis and Butthead did. So is Eric Cartman. So are the Married With Children family. So are Bart and Homer Simpson, and Hank Hill. All deeply imprinted with the stamp of American failure. All are failures intellectually, socially and spiritually. All are incomplete people.
So, I’d say Sarah and the rest are spot on. They are as sickening as American culture. I guarantee you that none of those characters, like Joe American, would give a rat’s ass about Iraqi children or global warming. Nicely done.
» RE: If she repulses you, that's good **WHY WATCH THE REPULSIVE?**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: If she repulses you, that's good **WHY WATCH THE REPULSIVE?**
Posted by: particle
» RE: If she repulses you, that's good **WHY WATCH THE REPULSIVE?**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: If she repulses you, that's good **WHY WATCH THE REPULSIVE?**
Posted by: particle
» RE: If she repulses you, that's good **WHY WATCH THE REPULSIVE?**
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: If she repulses you, that's good **WHY WATCH THE REPULSIVE?**
Posted by: maribelle
» Hey!
Posted by: kepstein7777
» Rusty Shackleford says hi
Posted by: LMNOP
» you sir, have TOTALLY nailed it.
Posted by: Beatnik
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Posted by: particle on Oct 6, 2007 7:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are you kidding me? Dead-without-a-laugh-track Seinfeld? Sure, throw out some names and pretend it's historically meaningful.
Look. You can be comedic and you can be "edgy". And sometimes, sometimes, edginess is humorous in and of itself. But it wears thin pretty quickly. When attempts at building tension overwhelm your comedy, you end up delivering empty material. Some people will laugh where they're supposed to, but that doesn't make it funny.
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Posted by: Frankstank on Oct 6, 2007 7:48 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe I should move to New York or something because if there are other women like her out there, I want to know about it!
» RE: Hotter than Tabasco sauce *OH FOR PETE'S SAKE*
Posted by: maribelle
» You sound humourless
Posted by: Frankstank
» RE: You sound humourless **Who cares about humor? Its all about sexiness, right?*
Posted by: maribelle
» I give you the promulgations of your highness, Maribelle
Posted by: MAD
» RE: Hotter than Tabasco sauce *OH FOR PETE'S SAKE*
Posted by: katyalynn
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Posted by: Cruella on Oct 6, 2007 8:26 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is she funny? Of course she is - to her fans - otherwise she wouldn't be on TV.
Is she un-funny? Of course, if it ain't your bag, it ain't your bag.
Is she offensive? Now that's a relevant question. She's not had much coverage over here in the UK so I'm not much qualified to answer but we do seem to have a trend towards offensive humour.
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Posted by: Bambi on Oct 6, 2007 8:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm gonna check her out in a couple years if she's still around. If she develops that sense of humor of hers, I think she'll be screaming funny.
» RE: I'm gonna check back later
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: mick3
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: yellow on Oct 6, 2007 9:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Naomi Klein kind of does the same thing
Posted by: Frankstank
» RE: Naomi Klein kind of does the same thing
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Voicedude on Oct 6, 2007 9:25 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like so many who think this (and mean-spirited dreck like Borat) is actually funny, she doesn't seem to know the difference between 'commentary' and shadenfruede coupled with sheer exploitation.
I'm glad someone else said it.
My watch says '14:59', Sarah. What've you got?
» She sucks like Borat?
Posted by: YogiBear
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» She's bringing back SHOCK VALUE for its own sake. SO WHAT??
Posted by: yellow
» Oh..I see.If a Black expresses that he thinks that the jew female silverman's 'comedy' is racist...
Posted by: ekipnrut
» KIP, You're more racist than Silverman. Silverman doesn't really hate anyone. You hate many people.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Her ass ain't nothin' but trash......!!!
Posted by: morticia
» Typical.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Typical.
Posted by: morticia
» Ahhhh....agent MRT37...
Posted by: ekipnrut
» Agent Mxyzptlk....as I live and draw breath.
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Agent Mxyzptlk....as I live and draw breath.
Posted by: particle
Comments are closed-
Posted by: newtype_alpha on Oct 6, 2007 9:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't get me wrong, political backwardness can be funny as hell, but that's only because satire HAS to break the rules in order to be relevant. Of course, Sarah Silverman would probably be better off whoring for shock laughs in front of a live and completely unsuspecting audience; maybe somebody should offer her a leading in the next Jackass movie?
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Posted by: US Citizen on Oct 6, 2007 9:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Jimmy Kimmel right-wing???
Posted by: morticia
» Good Point.
Posted by: yellow
» RE:'good liberals'..........EXACTLY!!!!!!
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Jimmy Kimmel right-wing???
Posted by: US Citizen
» I literally cannot think of a response to this..
Posted by: Beatnik
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Posted by: kk33deg on Oct 6, 2007 10:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
BTW, I think what Sarah said about Britney Spears was damn well funny. She just said out loud what the tabloids, CNN and Fox imply every day. Moreover, what she said is almost certainly factual - I would bet a pile of cash that Britney's kids are mistakes.
» Lot of sad-ass people out there
Posted by: Frankstank
» nice try
Posted by: Phenix
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Posted by: Gravitas on Oct 6, 2007 10:30 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: What does she have in common with Ann Colter?
Posted by: kk33deg
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Posted by: scheherezade on Oct 6, 2007 11:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She's not funny. Or witty. She's stupid, she's boring, and the show's excruciating to sit through.
It's really rather simple: if Silverman's waste of airspace was indeed funny, we'd know it because people would be [i]laughing[/i] at it, instead of debating the possible presence of humor with the wrong side of our brains!!! Are you kidding me?
Media execs have a long-running agenda to make sure we understand it's the man's job to be funny. That's why 'female comedians' who make it to the air are seldom actually witty in any way, shape or form.
Remember She-TV? The only funny cast member was...the guy, Nick Bakay, who got all the best lines.
When you write funny for women, or let funny women on the air, you risk empowering the whole race to break out of existing beauty requirements. And that's not territory Hollywood movers and shakers are going to be venturing into any time soon.
Thus only beautiful women are allowed on the air. And since beautiful women are never funny -- they lack the background experiences that create a sense of irony -- ergo, says Hollywood, women as a gender aren't funny.
We see lots of female comedians making fools of themselves, degrading themselves, reinforcing gender stereotypes and generally affirming the idea that humor's something women just don't quite have the brainpower to grasp. But female characters never get the witty lines, and funny women don't make it past casting.
I don't think it's an accident that the wittiest TV material usually ends up coming out of male mouths, when much scripting work goes to gays. It's not really in a gay man's best interest for men to suddenly see average women depicted as being attractive for something far more attainable than physical perfection.
Roseanne Barr was funny, until she jumped the shark. Now, the only really witty female allowed on TV is probably Wanda Sykes -- and she's slipped in under the radar because she's not blondie enough to threaten.
» RE: Don't overthink it
Posted by: mikelz
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Posted by: mikelz on Oct 6, 2007 11:51 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: Sarah Silverman - Hysterical Commentary on Personalities
Posted by: herronsmith
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Posted by: goldmarx on Oct 6, 2007 11:54 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Substitute the word 'erotic' for 'funny', and the whole tenor of the female anti-Silvermans sounds very familiar, indeed. It's well known that Sarah is pro-porn - she did a porn movie review for HEEB magazine last year, and hangs out with porn star Daphne Rosen.
So it's inevitable that some folks are ticked off by all that, but they don't want to say so openly because then it'll make them sound like the loons that they are, so they try to sound reasonable by saying, "Well, she's just not funny because I say so!" Of course, that's also pretty loony on the face of it, and the fact that Silverman can inspire that is testimony to her brilliance.
» Your point?
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: Your point?
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Sarah's Problem: She's Pro-Porn
Posted by: herronsmith
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Posted by: PeaceLove on Oct 6, 2007 12:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even though Silverman pokes fun at everyone, the real target of her character's hatred and dysfunction is herself. Thus, the core of the show (and her persona) is not comedy, but pain. She doesn't always nail it, but at least she's aiming ridiculously high. Brilliant work.
» RE: She's moved beyond comedian **FIRST YOU HAVE TO BE FUNNY**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: She's moved beyond comedian **FIRST YOU HAVE TO BE FUNNY**
Posted by: katyalynn
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Posted by: koolwoman on Oct 6, 2007 1:04 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Obscenity
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: munchhausen on Oct 6, 2007 1:27 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VagusDoc on Oct 6, 2007 1:32 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: munchhausen on Oct 6, 2007 1:34 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: The Ann Coulter of Comedy
Posted by: Doubtom
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Posted by: eosrk on Oct 6, 2007 3:10 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: eosrk on Oct 6, 2007 3:13 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Johnny Hempseed on Oct 6, 2007 3:48 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ekipnrut on Oct 6, 2007 3:50 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Valley
check out her 'sea hag' rant (You KNOW who that must be) :O)
...This 'valley girl'..this is a funny girl..(assuming she IS a girl)
» How about an atheist physicist rapper?
Posted by: morticia
» Hold up!!!...Don Hazen..white and jew women of Alternet...
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Hold up!!!...Don Hazen..white and jew women of Alternet...
Posted by: morticia
» Some things are annoying....
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Some things are annoying....
Posted by: morticia
» RE:A comment deletion policy should be administered in an even handed NON RACIST manner....
Posted by: ekipnrut
» Hey - get a room you two!
Posted by: katyalynn
» RE: Hey - get a room you two!
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Hey - get a room you two!
Posted by: katyalynn
» RE:Oh..BTW katyalynn...you're either not very bright or you ought refine you 'lie/smear skills'
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Oh..BTW katyalynn...you're either not very bright or you ought refine you 'lie/smear skills'
Posted by: katyalynn
» RE: Oh....you poor dear...hit by lightning bolts...men of color...god knows what else...
Posted by: ekipnrut
» KIP is a sexist and anti-semite who hides behind "anti-zionism." Is "ZioJew woman a bigoted remark?
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Lies and selectively edited excerpts-out of context- from some of my posts... :O)
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Lies and selectively edited excerpts-out of context- from some of my posts... :O)
Posted by: katyalynn
» RE: See above post... :O)
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Lies and selectively edited excerpts-out of context- from some of my posts... :O)
Posted by: katyalynn
» RE: You really should ask about a change in meds or perhaps an increased dosage...K'? :O)
Posted by: ekipnrut
» Oh, I remember her/him now. One of yellow's friends from islamophobistan.(nm)
Posted by: justaguy
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Posted by: JimRooooo on Oct 6, 2007 4:29 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I turn her off. I even Tivo past the blurbs for her show.
But I would happily pork her.
» Ugh, you mention the Kimmel connection...
Posted by: defrag
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Posted by: antiapathy on Oct 6, 2007 6:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: WTF alternet???
Posted by: particle
» You LIE
Posted by: footman
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Posted by: l_m_n on Oct 6, 2007 6:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The question instead becomes: is she an inspired person with something to say about the American condition? Or is she a two-bit hack who accidentally touched upon deeper subjects? Are we reading what we want to read into a 1-dimensional character, or does Silverman know what she's doing?
But if it's working, does it matter? If her reflection of American life is valid (even if it is an unfunny imitation), then there is something to be learned. Because there is no taboo she won't touch.
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Posted by: snideelf on Oct 6, 2007 7:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She's got writers now, so you can't blame her completely.
If she does porn, I'll watch.
There is also a popular redhead, Kathy something, I don't understand her success at all.
She was the one who once appeared on Seinfeld and called him the devil.
There is another woman from late-night cable who just flat out insulted the audience every chance she got.
Example: So who are you here with tonight sir?
Your daughter?
So you're sleeping with your daughter?
Audience laughs.
Why were they laughing?
What it is is that people will come out and say that Silverman sucks and there will always be people who will go and see her now because they think she must be different or cutting edge.
She's not cutting anything.
Stand-up took a dive after Seinfeld.
Guess you just gotta wait for the next series of really funny comedians.
Hopefully they'll come around soon.
» Don't waste your time
Posted by: footman
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Posted by: footman on Oct 6, 2007 7:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gimme a break. Sarah Silvermann is like Southpark. Kind of funny sometimes, extremely shocking, and ok in small doses once in a while, but otherwise not really all as threatening as the religious nuts make it out to be when they get their panties in a twist about it.
This is the same. Getting your panties in a twist about Sarah Silvermann is pretty lame.
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Beatnik on Oct 6, 2007 9:22 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: YogiBear on Oct 6, 2007 9:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: I dunno yogi..hang around her show's set....now don't overtly stalk...ya' never know...
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: I dunno yogi..hang around her show's set....now don't overtly stalk...ya' never know...
Posted by: YogiBear
» YES....and no WE weren't........
Posted by: ekipnrut
Comments are closed-
Posted by: munchhausen on Oct 7, 2007 2:07 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: argyle on Oct 7, 2007 5:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rosweed on Oct 7, 2007 5:49 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: medstudgeek on Oct 7, 2007 6:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Her shtick is that she looks like a nice, clean-cut young woman with a foul mouth. It's the disjunction between the speaker and the words.
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Posted by: profco on Oct 7, 2007 7:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: egibbs on Oct 7, 2007 7:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: I'd like to know...ANSWER: (probably) all of 'em....see if you're white ,you may
Posted by: ekipnrut
Comments are closed-
Posted by: spanskmand on Oct 7, 2007 10:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It also explains why the New Left, yesterday's and today's version, created and propagated by Jews, will always fail miserably here in America, in Europe, and around the world. Jews, even atheistic Jews, hate Christian gentile society whether it be of the left or the right variety. Unwittingly their purpose is to tear down the Christian/Socratic deontological underpinnings of the West and replace them with Talmudic hucksterism and a contrariness of the splitting hairs variety.
Silverman is but a symptom of inordinate Jewish control over the media. The hatred of everything Christian and gentile convinces many on the Jewish left that in order to be "progressive" they must tear down the heart of Christian civilization, which is the family structure. Hence, abortion is great, divorce is liberating, homosexual perversions are acceptable, unruly hooligans masquerading as children are seen as "empowered".
» RE: ....irrelevant
Posted by: footman
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Posted by: sunrise on Oct 7, 2007 12:43 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: justaguy on Oct 7, 2007 6:19 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't find any of the "comedians" mentioned in the article very funny or witty. I guess if you're a totally self absorbed halfwit, other self absorbed halfwits laughing at their self absorbtion must seem like schadenfreude.
Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I should be more about me.
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Posted by: yellow on Oct 7, 2007 10:30 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» The Manichaean paranoia of the Ashkenazis is more frightening.
Posted by: justaguy
» I wish got as much money to lie as you do justacoward. Maybe I wouldn't have to drive cab so much...
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: thekatman on Oct 7, 2007 11:40 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Oct 8, 2007 2:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But she has the right to do and say what she wants and I have the right not to watch her. I apparently am in the minority because if no one watched her she would not be on the air.
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Posted by: lepidopteryx on Oct 8, 2007 5:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kel on Oct 8, 2007 6:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She picks the precarious ground to walk on and acts like its her domain and slides on it like nothing matters. And even though nothing does, I'd rather laugh while another tells me so.
She has a right to suck and she does.
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Morgaine Swann on Oct 7, 2007 10:25 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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