COMMENTS: 64
How Media Mistakes Fueled the High Court Abortion Ruling
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So said the founder of Operation Rescue, a militant anti-choice group that blockaded abortion providers, in 2003.
Wednesday's U.S. Supreme Court decision (Gonzales v. Carhart) upholding the federal abortion ban is the fruition of that public relations goldmine. It is a travesty of language bought and repeated endlessly by journalists who were sometimes uninformed and sometimes just too lazy to get it right.
Indeed, the travesty of language around abortion is so pervasive that even Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing the decision for the court's majority, in addition to using the inaccurate term "partial birth abortion," also referred to the "abortion doctor" repeatedly in the ruling. Why did he not simply refer to doctors as "doctors," or "ob/gyns"? If another surgical procedure were under scrutiny, would he have he referred to "tonsillectomy doctor" or "hysterectomy doctor"? Of course not. But those who want to take away entirely a woman's human right to make her own childbearing decisions have used the term "abortion doctor" for so long as an epithet that they have succeeded in getting even the highest court in the land to adopt their language.
Such bias is just the tip of the iceberg in the battle over what losing plaintiff Dr. Leroy Carhart has called "partial truth abortion." There is no such thing as partial birth abortion. The term will be found in no medical book. It was coined in 1995 by Douglas Johnson, legislative director for the National Right-to-Life Committee, and former Congressional representative and current Florida appeals court judge Charles Canady explicitly to confuse, horrify, and deceive -- to manipulate language with the intent of sensationalizing the abortion debate. In particular, they intended to take the focus away from the woman in order to place the greater value on the fetus. Leading medical associations all agreed it was a misleading term, but the media never checked their language and by 2001, 90% of articles were using the term without so much as a "so-called" attached. As I reported in my 2004 book The War on Choice, an AP managing editor admitted when challenged that "partial birth abortion" was emotionally loaded, but said they continued to use it because it was instantly recognizable. Another major daily newspaper editor admitted it wasn't correct but said it was easier to use than alternatives.
An almost identical abortion ban was found unconstitutional by a different Supreme Court in 2000. Elections have consequences. Since then, President George W. Bush has had the opportunity to appoint two new justices who are ideologically in synch with the biased language. That shift made all the difference to women today and tomorrow.
Now we have a landmark Supreme Court decision, built upon the counterfeit foundation of a made-up term that the media accepted and used uncritically, and that has propelled the highest court to issue a ruling permitting a law that at a minimum:
1. Does not provide adequate exceptions for a woman's health, which means that a fundamental legal principle of the primary importance of women's health has been overturned.
2. For the first time upholds a federal law that steps directly into the physician's exam room and tells him or her what medical technique cannot be used even if the physician's judgment is that it is the safest to protect a patient's health and future fertility.
3. Will not reduce the number of abortions but will over time, according to the doctors who know women's health best, cause an increase in medical complications, and possibly even deaths.
The public relations goldmine of those who aim for nothing less than to eliminate reproductive justice at all times from all women has paid off for them. Language, after all, has consequences too.
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Posted by: HughScott on Apr 21, 2007 2:47 AM
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"This subsection does NOT apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself."
Yet, without offering any proof, Gloria Feldt said the statue “does not provide adequate exceptions for a woman's health, which means that a fundamental legal principle of the primary importance of women's health has been overturned.”
If that’s true, she should have listed in her article the “adequate exceptions” not provided by the statute. By failing to so, Feldt is practicing sloppy journalism, too.
Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption. AlterNet readers who object to my NON-PROFIT campaign to expose President Bush as a lying crook can email me through the website rather than comment here.
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» RE: Gloria Feldt – a pot calling the kettle black.
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Gloria Feldt – a pot calling the kettle black.
Posted by: yellow
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Gloria Feldt – a pot calling the kettle black.
Posted by: EagleMB
» D & E NOT used only in late-term abortions
Posted by: deborama
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: The truth about partial birth abortion
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: The truth about partial birth abortion
Posted by: progdem
» RE: The truth about partial birth abortion
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: D & E NOT used only in late-term abortions
Posted by: tya
» RE: Gloria Feldt – a pot calling the kettle black.
Posted by: KellyRene
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: You don't have to carry a baby to term...
Posted by: EagleMB
» Pot calling kettle
Posted by: YogiBear
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Pot calling kettle
Posted by: progdem
» RE: Gloria Feldt – a pot calling the kettle black.
Posted by: skewitall
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: As for viability...
Posted by: EagleMB
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: As for viability...
Posted by: munchkinpup
» RE: As for viability...
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Apr 21, 2007 2:50 AM
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The only chance of avoiding the war machine or salvaging what's left of our rights is if we all dress up like foetuses. My wife says I should cut the cord already, but I might keep it as part of the costume.
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Posted by: Jim on Apr 21, 2007 4:40 AM
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"...the term `partial-birth abortion' means an abortion in
which the person performing the abortion--
``(A) deliberately and intentionally vaginally
delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-
first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the
body of the mother, or, in the case of breech
presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother, for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and
``(B) performs the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living
fetus..." - Public Law 108-105
In news reports I see things such as a procedure called by opponents "partial birth abortion." It is time to use the legal name, whatever one's view about it.
In an Ohio bill the name was "brain suction abortion," which is more graphically descriptive of what is so delicately called the "procedure." But this law bans more than just sucking out the child's brains to crush its skull.
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» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: yellow
» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: munchkinpup
» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: yellow
» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: blatant disregard for real human life
Posted by: Jim
» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CouldBeeWorse on Apr 21, 2007 5:12 AM
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As to "abortion doctor," how odd that this bothers Feldt. Neither the inventor of this method (Dr. James McMahon) nor its popularizer (Dr. Martin Haskell) was an ob-gyn -- they were family practitioners who became essentially full-time abortionists. I guess that Feldt will not like "abortionist," either. Yet, at the very first congressional hearing on the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act on June 15, 1995, Dr. J. Courtland Robinson, professor of ob-gyn at Johns Hopkins, testified against the bill on behalf of the National Abortion Federation against the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. He repeatedly identified himself as an "abortionist," and even as a "Christian abortionist." [Hearing Record, 104th Congress, First Session, June 15, 1995, Serial No. 31, at pages 86-87.] Perhaps it is Feldt who is engaged in the PR exercise here.
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» RE: there is nothing "inaccurate" about that terminology
Posted by: skewitall
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Posted by: OneAcre2012 on Apr 21, 2007 5:38 AM
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» You said it better than I could have...
Posted by: olderworker
» RE: You said it better than I could have...
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: on and on... I'm next
Posted by: skewitall
Comments are closed-
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Apr 21, 2007 6:19 AM
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We each can do a small part by using our own phrases for the same subjects:
-- pro-choice and forced childbirth, and anti-abortion rather than pro-life
-- the Iraq occupation or civil war rather than the Iraq war,
-- climate change instead of global warming, and
--the wrong war rather than the long war, etc.
And c'mon, help think up some really snappy lines for all the subjects about which we care and want to see accurately portrayed. We need sound bytes, we need bumper stickers, and yes--forgive me--we need to use simplistic terms (in public at least).
"Another major daily newspaper editor admitted it wasn't correct but said it was easier to use than alternatives." Well, let's create some easy to use and punchy alternatives. The media eats what it's fed--and they like tart little nibbles. Let's start cookin'.
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» Slogans
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: the word processor is mightier than the sword
Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: the word processor is mightier than the sword
Posted by: MartianBachelor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: olderworker on Apr 21, 2007 7:08 AM
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However, I do NOT feel comfortable telling people anymore than I've had an abortion. I don't usually tell people I'm pro-choice. I certainly don't press my friends to donate to the organizations that I do. Not sure from where this discomfort comes, but I think it's a new, more closed era.
Having said that, I also want to say that, in 1980, I briefly worked as an abortion counselor. The clinic was picketed constantly, and some of my co-workers there said that they had observed women FROM THE PICKET LINES coming in, having abortions, and then going right back to the picket line the next day!
So perhaps this country has always promoted hypocrisy in one way or another.
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» anti-choicers having abortions
Posted by: hagwind
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Posted by: H_H on Apr 21, 2007 7:10 AM
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Why?
Because the single-issue groups who are the most pro-choice push for that and that alone at the expense of absolutely everything else. There have been instances in which NARAL has endorsed Republicans over Democrats simply because the former might be slightly more pro-choice, never mind the big picture and that the Republican majority has voted-in the justices who have now made this decision. Sorry, NARAL: you shouldn't have endorsed Republicans for the sake of short-term gains. It came back to bite you in the ass.
The majority of the American public favors slight restrictions on abortion while not banning it outright. The current stance of NARAL as insisting on absolutely unrestricted abortion on demand (and the mind-set that giving-up one inch of territory is no different from a ban) is anti-majoritarian and a losing issue. Until the pro-choice activist crowd realizes that the majority of the public doesn't work at an abortion clinic, they will continue to face rollbacks of this kind.
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» RE: (Yawn)
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: xenacat on Apr 21, 2007 8:20 AM
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Posted by: hadashito on Apr 21, 2007 10:43 AM
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» George Will has more clout and is just as bad as Broder has become.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: juniper3 on Apr 21, 2007 5:29 PM
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Posted by: blackshards on Apr 21, 2007 8:52 PM
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There is a point after which the parents' right to an abortion - that's both of them - ends. That hasn't been defined legally yet, although this case may be a stepping stone toward that end.
Once that point is reached there should be no turning back unless there's a real medical reason, as allowed in the law.
Given the numbers on partial birth abortions it's really a non-issue. Accept Roe v. Wade in the first trimester and count your cause lucky to have that.
The media didn't make mistakes. They are on your side. Happily, they simply weren't able to spin the truth on this issue and justice was done.
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» RE: Mistakes? Not at all.
Posted by: ReallyBearish
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on Apr 22, 2007 10:14 AM
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Statistically speaking it should be possible to roughly predict when the first really serious medical complication or death will occur. Anyone have an idea of when that will be, given the other data which is known?
Also, has anyone considered that this law/ruling might increase the number of earlier abortions, under a better-safe-that-sorry scenario? The unavailability of a later term abortion could cause those who think they might need it to abort sooner rather than later, i.e., while they still can.
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 22, 2007 6:04 PM
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Or is it only ok if the doctor yanks the baby out of the womb rather than the baby coming out naturally? What if the baby exits the mother's body entirely and is breathing on its own? I guess if the doctor pulled it out for the purpose to kill him/her then that is legal, but if he pulled the baby out for the purpose of assisting the mother in giving birth that is no longer legal?
Guess I'm a little unclear on what criteria make abortion ok or not.
Frankly I don't care either way. I wasn't aborted as a child so yay for me and as a man this issue does not affect me. There are some people I know who I'd like to abort. They're in their 88th trimester or later I believe. Let me know when that becomes legal.
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Posted by: Salty_Dog on Apr 22, 2007 6:34 PM
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For crying out loud, if you think that the right is manipulating the public through its choice of descriptive terms, why in the world would you help them... or do you not believe your own analysis??
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» Sadly, I did not notice this at all until you mentioned it, kudos to you. n/m
Posted by: PirateJesus
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Posted by: RobNLA on Apr 22, 2007 6:38 PM
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They want to force their morality down other people's throats, not just against abortion, but also other things like birth control and pre-marital sex.
It's not about when a fetus might be viable, despite the current rhetoric.
Consider this, in the future fetuses will be able to survive earlier outside of the womb. Perhaps at some point, a sperm and egg might grow into a newborn completely without a womb.
Then what? Pro-lifers will argue than any conception should be preserved because they are viable immediately?
No, pro-lifers use whatever excuse that may sound reasonable to impose their morality on others. It's not really about when a fetus is viable or when life begins...it's about when they believe those things are true. What you might believe doesn't matter, what the pregnant women might believe doesn't matter either.
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Posted by: Cruella on Apr 23, 2007 3:07 AM
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In fact the article said the one in 30 FOETUSES aborted FOR MEDICAL REASONS was alive WHEN REMOVED but died WITHIN AN HOUR OR TWO. It also went on to say that this was a result of doctors not following recommended practice during the proceedure.
I complained and in fairness to them they changed "babies" to "foetuses" but left the other glaring erors in.
We have this problem a lot over here too but I think we're still a smidgen ahead of the US situation. See:
http://cruellablog.blogspot.com under "Bullsh!t headline alert!"
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Apr 23, 2007 6:56 AM
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I'm a vegan and think it's wrong to kill animals for food but I'm pro choice and believe in a woman's right to choose an abortion. I have had abortions and finally a tubal ligation.
But I don't give a hoot when some obviously guilty as hell mass murderer gets the death penalty. In theory, we should stop the death penalty because innocent persons are on death row. But when a guilty one gets killed by the state, it doesn't hurt my heart. But killings in acts of war affect me greatly. The 32 kids at VT, that was a tragedy. But nothing compared to the hundreds of Iraqi's killed this week during the war.
It's all a contradiction.
I'm pro choice but I'm also grossed out by photos of late term abortions where it's obvious there was a BABY and not just a cluster of cells extracted. And although it grosses me out to see a dead baby, it grosses me out even more that humans are breeding ourselves into extinction spewing out more of "God's little miracles." Ugh. Vomit.
The religious hypocrites who are anti-abortion/pro-life in the case of fetuses who are pro-hunting, pro-war and pro-death penalty probably also feel the same about of conflict in their values.
Although I despise the pro-life movement, I also understand their conflict because as a vegan animal rights person, it's hard to justify being pro-life for animals but not pro-life for humans.
Hmmmm. More to think about.
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» RE: I'm against killing Animals, but I am for killing Human Fetuses.
Posted by: jonny5
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Posted by: edmenken on Apr 25, 2007 1:35 PM
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For example, they have been too timid and fearful to charge the GOP and religious extremists with, "Wanting to turn women's bodies into procreation factories for the sate", or "Turning American women into brood mares for theofascists." These pro-choice advocates have never grasped that the fight for a woman's right to choose can only be won in a "street fight" against zealots who call us "muderers", and the only way to win is to have a muscular, no-holds-barred battle, led by the kind of language I've described. NARAL's continuous failure to absolutely protect the right to choose is a reflection of the same kind of weakness that has infected the Democratic Party for too long, and that's why I no longer contribute to NARAL, and will wait to see who the candidate is before I extend any meaningful support to the Democratic Party. And I am by no means a "radical", except in the sense that to oppose the right-wing extremism that has controlled this country for too long might be considered "radical."
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Posted by: Glasser on Apr 27, 2007 11:46 PM
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Posted by: HughScott on Apr 21, 2007 2:47 AM
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"This subsection does NOT apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself."
Yet, without offering any proof, Gloria Feldt said the statue “does not provide adequate exceptions for a woman's health, which means that a fundamental legal principle of the primary importance of women's health has been overturned.”
If that’s true, she should have listed in her article the “adequate exceptions” not provided by the statute. By failing to so, Feldt is practicing sloppy journalism, too.
Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption. AlterNet readers who object to my NON-PROFIT campaign to expose President Bush as a lying crook can email me through the website rather than comment here.
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» RE: Gloria Feldt – a pot calling the kettle black.
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Gloria Feldt – a pot calling the kettle black.
Posted by: yellow
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Gloria Feldt – a pot calling the kettle black.
Posted by: EagleMB
» D & E NOT used only in late-term abortions
Posted by: deborama
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: The truth about partial birth abortion
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: The truth about partial birth abortion
Posted by: progdem
» RE: The truth about partial birth abortion
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: D & E NOT used only in late-term abortions
Posted by: tya
» RE: Gloria Feldt – a pot calling the kettle black.
Posted by: KellyRene
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: You don't have to carry a baby to term...
Posted by: EagleMB
» Pot calling kettle
Posted by: YogiBear
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Pot calling kettle
Posted by: progdem
» RE: Gloria Feldt – a pot calling the kettle black.
Posted by: skewitall
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: As for viability...
Posted by: EagleMB
» I stand by my post. Feldt should have specified the health problems. Bitch at her, not me!
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: As for viability...
Posted by: munchkinpup
» RE: As for viability...
Posted by: EagleMB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Apr 21, 2007 2:50 AM
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The only chance of avoiding the war machine or salvaging what's left of our rights is if we all dress up like foetuses. My wife says I should cut the cord already, but I might keep it as part of the costume.
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Posted by: Jim on Apr 21, 2007 4:40 AM
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"...the term `partial-birth abortion' means an abortion in
which the person performing the abortion--
``(A) deliberately and intentionally vaginally
delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-
first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the
body of the mother, or, in the case of breech
presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother, for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and
``(B) performs the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living
fetus..." - Public Law 108-105
In news reports I see things such as a procedure called by opponents "partial birth abortion." It is time to use the legal name, whatever one's view about it.
In an Ohio bill the name was "brain suction abortion," which is more graphically descriptive of what is so delicately called the "procedure." But this law bans more than just sucking out the child's brains to crush its skull.
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» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: yellow
» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: munchkinpup
» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: yellow
» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: blatant disregard for real human life
Posted by: Jim
» RE: A legal term, not a medical term
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CouldBeeWorse on Apr 21, 2007 5:12 AM
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As to "abortion doctor," how odd that this bothers Feldt. Neither the inventor of this method (Dr. James McMahon) nor its popularizer (Dr. Martin Haskell) was an ob-gyn -- they were family practitioners who became essentially full-time abortionists. I guess that Feldt will not like "abortionist," either. Yet, at the very first congressional hearing on the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act on June 15, 1995, Dr. J. Courtland Robinson, professor of ob-gyn at Johns Hopkins, testified against the bill on behalf of the National Abortion Federation against the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. He repeatedly identified himself as an "abortionist," and even as a "Christian abortionist." [Hearing Record, 104th Congress, First Session, June 15, 1995, Serial No. 31, at pages 86-87.] Perhaps it is Feldt who is engaged in the PR exercise here.
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» RE: there is nothing "inaccurate" about that terminology
Posted by: skewitall
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Posted by: OneAcre2012 on Apr 21, 2007 5:38 AM
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» You said it better than I could have...
Posted by: olderworker
» RE: You said it better than I could have...
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: on and on... I'm next
Posted by: skewitall
Comments are closed-
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Apr 21, 2007 6:19 AM
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We each can do a small part by using our own phrases for the same subjects:
-- pro-choice and forced childbirth, and anti-abortion rather than pro-life
-- the Iraq occupation or civil war rather than the Iraq war,
-- climate change instead of global warming, and
--the wrong war rather than the long war, etc.
And c'mon, help think up some really snappy lines for all the subjects about which we care and want to see accurately portrayed. We need sound bytes, we need bumper stickers, and yes--forgive me--we need to use simplistic terms (in public at least).
"Another major daily newspaper editor admitted it wasn't correct but said it was easier to use than alternatives." Well, let's create some easy to use and punchy alternatives. The media eats what it's fed--and they like tart little nibbles. Let's start cookin'.
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» Slogans
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: the word processor is mightier than the sword
Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: the word processor is mightier than the sword
Posted by: MartianBachelor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: olderworker on Apr 21, 2007 7:08 AM
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However, I do NOT feel comfortable telling people anymore than I've had an abortion. I don't usually tell people I'm pro-choice. I certainly don't press my friends to donate to the organizations that I do. Not sure from where this discomfort comes, but I think it's a new, more closed era.
Having said that, I also want to say that, in 1980, I briefly worked as an abortion counselor. The clinic was picketed constantly, and some of my co-workers there said that they had observed women FROM THE PICKET LINES coming in, having abortions, and then going right back to the picket line the next day!
So perhaps this country has always promoted hypocrisy in one way or another.
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» anti-choicers having abortions
Posted by: hagwind
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Posted by: H_H on Apr 21, 2007 7:10 AM
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Why?
Because the single-issue groups who are the most pro-choice push for that and that alone at the expense of absolutely everything else. There have been instances in which NARAL has endorsed Republicans over Democrats simply because the former might be slightly more pro-choice, never mind the big picture and that the Republican majority has voted-in the justices who have now made this decision. Sorry, NARAL: you shouldn't have endorsed Republicans for the sake of short-term gains. It came back to bite you in the ass.
The majority of the American public favors slight restrictions on abortion while not banning it outright. The current stance of NARAL as insisting on absolutely unrestricted abortion on demand (and the mind-set that giving-up one inch of territory is no different from a ban) is anti-majoritarian and a losing issue. Until the pro-choice activist crowd realizes that the majority of the public doesn't work at an abortion clinic, they will continue to face rollbacks of this kind.
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» RE: (Yawn)
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: xenacat on Apr 21, 2007 8:20 AM
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Posted by: hadashito on Apr 21, 2007 10:43 AM
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» George Will has more clout and is just as bad as Broder has become.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: juniper3 on Apr 21, 2007 5:29 PM
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Posted by: blackshards on Apr 21, 2007 8:52 PM
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There is a point after which the parents' right to an abortion - that's both of them - ends. That hasn't been defined legally yet, although this case may be a stepping stone toward that end.
Once that point is reached there should be no turning back unless there's a real medical reason, as allowed in the law.
Given the numbers on partial birth abortions it's really a non-issue. Accept Roe v. Wade in the first trimester and count your cause lucky to have that.
The media didn't make mistakes. They are on your side. Happily, they simply weren't able to spin the truth on this issue and justice was done.
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» RE: Mistakes? Not at all.
Posted by: ReallyBearish
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on Apr 22, 2007 10:14 AM
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Statistically speaking it should be possible to roughly predict when the first really serious medical complication or death will occur. Anyone have an idea of when that will be, given the other data which is known?
Also, has anyone considered that this law/ruling might increase the number of earlier abortions, under a better-safe-that-sorry scenario? The unavailability of a later term abortion could cause those who think they might need it to abort sooner rather than later, i.e., while they still can.
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 22, 2007 6:04 PM
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Or is it only ok if the doctor yanks the baby out of the womb rather than the baby coming out naturally? What if the baby exits the mother's body entirely and is breathing on its own? I guess if the doctor pulled it out for the purpose to kill him/her then that is legal, but if he pulled the baby out for the purpose of assisting the mother in giving birth that is no longer legal?
Guess I'm a little unclear on what criteria make abortion ok or not.
Frankly I don't care either way. I wasn't aborted as a child so yay for me and as a man this issue does not affect me. There are some people I know who I'd like to abort. They're in their 88th trimester or later I believe. Let me know when that becomes legal.
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Posted by: Salty_Dog on Apr 22, 2007 6:34 PM
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For crying out loud, if you think that the right is manipulating the public through its choice of descriptive terms, why in the world would you help them... or do you not believe your own analysis??
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» Sadly, I did not notice this at all until you mentioned it, kudos to you. n/m
Posted by: PirateJesus
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Posted by: RobNLA on Apr 22, 2007 6:38 PM
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They want to force their morality down other people's throats, not just against abortion, but also other things like birth control and pre-marital sex.
It's not about when a fetus might be viable, despite the current rhetoric.
Consider this, in the future fetuses will be able to survive earlier outside of the womb. Perhaps at some point, a sperm and egg might grow into a newborn completely without a womb.
Then what? Pro-lifers will argue than any conception should be preserved because they are viable immediately?
No, pro-lifers use whatever excuse that may sound reasonable to impose their morality on others. It's not really about when a fetus is viable or when life begins...it's about when they believe those things are true. What you might believe doesn't matter, what the pregnant women might believe doesn't matter either.
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Posted by: Cruella on Apr 23, 2007 3:07 AM
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In fact the article said the one in 30 FOETUSES aborted FOR MEDICAL REASONS was alive WHEN REMOVED but died WITHIN AN HOUR OR TWO. It also went on to say that this was a result of doctors not following recommended practice during the proceedure.
I complained and in fairness to them they changed "babies" to "foetuses" but left the other glaring erors in.
We have this problem a lot over here too but I think we're still a smidgen ahead of the US situation. See:
http://cruellablog.blogspot.com under "Bullsh!t headline alert!"
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Apr 23, 2007 6:56 AM
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I'm a vegan and think it's wrong to kill animals for food but I'm pro choice and believe in a woman's right to choose an abortion. I have had abortions and finally a tubal ligation.
But I don't give a hoot when some obviously guilty as hell mass murderer gets the death penalty. In theory, we should stop the death penalty because innocent persons are on death row. But when a guilty one gets killed by the state, it doesn't hurt my heart. But killings in acts of war affect me greatly. The 32 kids at VT, that was a tragedy. But nothing compared to the hundreds of Iraqi's killed this week during the war.
It's all a contradiction.
I'm pro choice but I'm also grossed out by photos of late term abortions where it's obvious there was a BABY and not just a cluster of cells extracted. And although it grosses me out to see a dead baby, it grosses me out even more that humans are breeding ourselves into extinction spewing out more of "God's little miracles." Ugh. Vomit.
The religious hypocrites who are anti-abortion/pro-life in the case of fetuses who are pro-hunting, pro-war and pro-death penalty probably also feel the same about of conflict in their values.
Although I despise the pro-life movement, I also understand their conflict because as a vegan animal rights person, it's hard to justify being pro-life for animals but not pro-life for humans.
Hmmmm. More to think about.
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» RE: I'm against killing Animals, but I am for killing Human Fetuses.
Posted by: jonny5
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Posted by: edmenken on Apr 25, 2007 1:35 PM
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For example, they have been too timid and fearful to charge the GOP and religious extremists with, "Wanting to turn women's bodies into procreation factories for the sate", or "Turning American women into brood mares for theofascists." These pro-choice advocates have never grasped that the fight for a woman's right to choose can only be won in a "street fight" against zealots who call us "muderers", and the only way to win is to have a muscular, no-holds-barred battle, led by the kind of language I've described. NARAL's continuous failure to absolutely protect the right to choose is a reflection of the same kind of weakness that has infected the Democratic Party for too long, and that's why I no longer contribute to NARAL, and will wait to see who the candidate is before I extend any meaningful support to the Democratic Party. And I am by no means a "radical", except in the sense that to oppose the right-wing extremism that has controlled this country for too long might be considered "radical."
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Posted by: Glasser on Apr 27, 2007 11:46 PM
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