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What's Wrong With Calling Bush A Devil?

By Jeff Cohen, AlterNet. Posted September 23, 2006.


Conservatives were quick to lash out at Hugo Chavez for calling President Bush a "devil," but that's exactly what Rush Limbaugh was calling Democrats only a few years ago.
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Across the U.S. political and media spectrum, there was wide agreement yesterday: Name-calling and personal attacks are bad for national and global dialogue. Prompting the unity were Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez' comments that President Bush was the devil incarnate, "El Diablo."

Among those exercised (and exorcized) about Chavez' name-calling were some of the loudest name-callers in American media today -- including Rush Limbaugh and other rightwing talk hosts. Limbaugh tried to equate Chavez' remarks with the alleged Bush-bashing that comes from top U.S. Democrats. In case you've forgotten, it was Limbaugh who ridiculed Chelsea Clinton, then 13, as the "White House dog."

It was Limbaugh in 2001 who routinely referred to Democratic leader Tom Daschle, literally, as "El Diablo." Along with "Devil in a Blue Dress" theme music, Limbaugh would carry on at length about how Daschle may well be Satan in soft-spoken disguise. Bellowed Limbaugh in July 2001: "Just yesterday, as Bush winged his way to Europe on a crucial mission to lead our allies into the 21st century...up pops 'El Diablo,' Tom Daschle, and his devilish deviltry, claiming that George Bush is incompetent." (Months later, Limbaugh started describing Daschle more as a traitor than a devil, who'd decided to "align himself with Iran, North Korea and Hussein.")

Also incensed by Chavez was MSNBC host and former GOP Congressman, Joe Scarborough - who last night played a lengthy excerpt of Limbaugh pontificating about the Chavez remarks. Somehow Scarborough couldn't dig up the tapes of Limbaugh declaring that Daschle was the devil.

In my new book Cable News Confidential: My Misadventures in Corporate Media, I dissect the hypocrisy of a TV news business that has long catered to hateful rightists like Pat Buchanan, Jerry Falwell and Ann Coulter. In TV land, vicious epithet-hurlers get to define and denounce outnumbered or silenced progressives as the name-callers.

When I worked at MSNBC on Phil Donahue's primetime show in 2002-2003, management often complained that Phil - who never named-called and was one of the most courteous hosts in TV history -- was "badgering" guests. His patriotism was questioned. As the Iraq invasion neared, an internal NBC management memo described Donahue as "a difficult public face for NBC in a time of war." Why? Because he insisted on presenting guests who were "skeptical of the administration's motives."

With Donahue terminated on the eve of war, MSNBC brass turned to hosts like Scarborough and talk radio bigot Michael Savage, known for his declarations that developing countries like Venezuela were "turd world nations"; that Latinos "breed like rabbits"; and that women "should have been denied the vote." In a TV industry bent on placating the far right, Donahue was "a difficult public face for NBC." But Savage was deemed an acceptable face.

Three weeks into the Iraq war, Scarborough was gleeful at boycotts and cancellations aimed at antiwar "elitists" like Janeane Garofalo, Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon. As a guest on Scarborough's show, Savage declared that "Hollywood idiots" are "absolutely committing sedition and treason." Responded Scarborough: "These leftist stooges for anti-American causes are always given a free pass."

Let me be clear: Those of us who use facts instead of rant; reason and argument instead of name-calling and personal attacks; evidence instead of intimidation and accusations of disloyalty -- we have the moral authority to tell Hugo Chavez that his comments were out of line.

But the Limbaughs, Hannitys, Scarboroughs and O'Reillys are in no position to point any fingers. Nor are the executives at Disney, GE and News Corp who have made them the loudest voices in American media.

Nor, for that matter, is Team Bush -- whose strategy has been to demonize and intimidate critics and other members of the "reality-based community."

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Jeff Cohen is the director of FAIR, the New York-based media watch organization - and co-author (with Norman Solomon) of Wizards of Media Oz: Behind the Curtain of Mainstream News.

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IF IT LOOKS LIKE THE DEVIL, IF IT ACTS LIKE THE DEVIL, ITS THE DEVIL
Posted by: Joe Rollins on Sep 23, 2006 12:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's is absolutely NOTHING wrong with what President Chavez said about the monster occupying the White House, whose actions are diabolism incarnate. The daily atrocities in Iraq, the torture of detainees, the trampling of our civil liberties, the deliberate neglect of the poor in this country are all the product of Bush's satanic policy. As a born-again Christian myself, I find it repugnant and revolting that Bush would ever avail himself of Christ as his personal savior...this is nothing but a guise to cover up his crimes. Mr. Chavez ought to be lauded, if anything, for his courage in denouncing Bush, who deserves to be called alot worse.

» Progressive/Chavez America Bashing Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Bashing Posted by: YogiBear
» Eyes' closed Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Bush and a strong America! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Bush and a strong America! Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Bush and a strong America! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Conservasaurus is an idiot! Posted by: common intelligence
» RE: Conservasaurus is an idiot! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Bush and a strong America! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Bush and a strong America! Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: yes' closed Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: yes' closed Posted by: xi_people
» RE: yes' closed Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: yes' closed Posted by: paulaH
» RE: yes' closed Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: yes' closed Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: yes' closed..sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: yes' closed..sickofsleaze Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: yes' closed..sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: yes' closed..sickofsleaze Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: yes' closed Posted by: Malamute
» RE: yes' closed Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: yes' closed...sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: yes' closed...sickofsleaze Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: yes' closed...sickofsleaze Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: yes' closed...sickofsleaze Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: yes' closed...sickofsleaze sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: yes' closed Posted by: bluesborn
» Progressiveland - near death Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Progressiveland - near death Posted by: Steve Adair
» RE: Progressiveland - near death Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Progressiveland - near death Posted by: longlivecheney
» Eurpoeans were out! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Bad shape Posted by: YogiBear
» American, yes! Posted by: soulfulnotes
» Pakistan made the correct choice! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» And about half... Posted by: Steve Adair
devil
Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 23, 2006 12:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course Bush is a Devil for he and Cheney are the globe's number 1 mass murderers in Iraq and elsewhere by the numbers killed. Of course, they aren't the only Devils around for every nation has killers but Bush/Cheney are without a doubt number 1 in mass death of innocent civilians in unguilty nations.

» RE: devil Posted by: packer29
» RE: devil Posted by: rsaxto
» Unguilty Nations? Posted by: bullwhip7
» RE: devil Posted by: joe2171
Someone Smell Sulfur?
Posted by: longlivecheney on Sep 23, 2006 1:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Someone else said it a couple articles back, but I'll repeat it because its worth mentioning. Alternet is increasingly irrelevant. So is Daily Kos. So is Huffington Post. So is Air America. (Though all of its 12 listeners would cretainly disagree)

The idea that anyone would support a third world dictator coming onto our soil and calling our president a devil is dispicable. But I welcome it with open arms. Thats not sulfur y'all smell. Its a Republican victory just around the corner.

» RE: To HerosAll: Posted by: Tom Degan
» Chavez 2008 Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: Chavez 2008 Posted by: Conservasaurus
» N'n'n'n'n'no Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: N'n'n'n'n'no Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Chavez 2008 Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Chavez 2008 Posted by: Conservasaurus
» And getting Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: Chavez 2008 Posted by: joe2171
» Hamsters and Progressives Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Getting desperate? Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Getting desperate? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The UN Posted by: Gregor
» RE: The UN Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Getting desperate? Posted by: joe2171
» RE: Someone Smell Sulfur? Posted by: packer29
» RE: Someone Smell Sulfur? Posted by: joe2171
» RE: Someone Smell Sulfur? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Someone Smell Sulfur? Posted by: captialism kills
» RE: Someone Smell Sulfur? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Someone Smell Sulfur? Posted by: drdanj
» Not sulphur but Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: Not sulphur but Posted by: joe2171
» RE: Someone Smell Sulfur? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Someone Smell Sulfur? Posted by: joe2171
» RE: UN is not considered our soil Posted by: Conservasaurus
» I accept the criticism Posted by: Conservasaurus
» HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Posted by: owlbear1
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...sickofsleaze Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...sickofsleaze Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: a third world dictator? Ha ha ha Posted by: longlivecheney
» a third world dictator? - Yep Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: a third world dictator? - Yep Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: a third world dictator? Ha ha ha..sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: a third world dictator? Ha ha ha Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Someone Smell Sulfur? Posted by: rsaxto
Someone had to say it
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Sep 23, 2006 2:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's refreshing to hear it in plain language.

Other leaders are always dancing around and using that boring, lifeless Eurospeak. I guess they want us to think they're sophisiticated, or civilized or something. "With all due respect, I regretfully confess I may have slight differences of opinion with Monsieur Bush, but I'm sure we can work it out over tea."

Chavez is a power-hungry blowhard, just like our beloved Leader. Aren't they all?...But at least he keeps it interesting.

» RE: Someone had to say it Posted by: glorybe
Someone had to say it
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Sep 23, 2006 2:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's refreshing to hear it in plain language.

Other leaders are always dancing around and using that boring, lifeless Eurospeak. I guess they want us to think they're sophisiticated, or civilized or something. "With all due respect, I regretfully confess I may have slight differences of opinion with Monsieur Bush, but I'm sure we can work it out over tea."

Chavez is a power-hungry blowhard, just like our beloved Leader. Aren't they all?...But at least he keeps it interesting.

» Sorry for the double post Posted by: kepstein7777
Alternet Irrelevant?
Posted by: theebest on Sep 23, 2006 3:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That thought has no relevance because ignorance can't smell itself above it's own stinch. Nobody is in support of Chavez. But his statement has an appearance with the way of Bush's action. It is kind of odd only one person in all of America can smell the difference between sulfur and victory but can't spell certainly.

» Chavez-Belafonte 2008 Posted by: fifthworld
» Analysis of Poverty in the US Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Analysis of Poverty in the US...sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» That would be illegal Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: That would be illegal..sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» You'd be pissed to... Posted by: truthteller
» RE: Alternet Irrelevant? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Alternet Irrelevant? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Alternet Irrelevant? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Alternet Irrelevant? Posted by: Aussie Kim
Chavez is a wild child, but Bush is an embarrassment
Posted by: Moonray on Sep 23, 2006 3:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least Chavez is providing health care, jobs and -- most importantly -- hope to his countrymen. G.W. Bush is taking those things away from his countrymen.

And, oh yes: Never, EVER vote for anyone who can't pronounce the word "nuclear."

» Venezuelans are free - to starve! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Poverty in the US Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Venezuelans are free - to starve!..sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: Venezuelans are free - to starve! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Venezuelans are free - to starve!...sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» Childish finger-pointing Posted by: Moonray
» RE: Childish finger-pointing Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Childish finger-pointing Posted by: davewuxi
» RE: Childish finger-pointing Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Where's the money gone! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Hahahaha, good advice. Posted by: Prophit
He's Definately Not Christ-Like
Posted by: Tom Degan on Sep 23, 2006 3:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is hw satanic? I'll leave the answer to that question to theological scholars. But of this there can be no doubt: George W. Bush, the man who is called by so many people (with straight faces, no less), "our most Christian president", is, in reality, the least Christ-like chief executive we've ever had.

One does not have to be a biblical scolar to see the shameful hypocracy in this man when he uses the name of Jesus Christ to justify what is, undoubtedly, the most blatantly corrupt and muderous agenda of any administration in American history. Do you remember the republican primary debates in the spring of when he named Jesus as his favorite "philosopher"? When I watched that debate on C-SPAN I remember thinking, "Wow! I knew that this guy wasn't the brightest bulb on the porch but he can't even tell the difference between philosophy and theology"? At that moment, I summarily dismissed any cahnce of his ever amking it to the White House. "The American people just aren't dumb enough to fall for this fool", I thought, "They can't be"!

What was it that P.T. Barnum said about never going broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public?

There was a quote by Jesus in the Sermon On The Mount: "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy"
In a 1999 interview with Tucker Carlson, Bush, in a feeble attempt at being "funny", mimicked the condemned Karla Faye Tucker pleading for her life. Hmm. Call it a hunch but I've got a sneaking suspicion that that wasn't very merciful! And don't forget that it was Bush who sent over one-hundred and fifty people to their deaths as governor of Texas - more than any other governor in American history! He would refuse to commute the sentences of people of even questionable guilt - He wouldn't even review their cases! The 2000 presidential contest was coming up and he just had to prove to the people that he was tough on crime. That's not very merciful either. As the late, great Lenny Bruce once said, "Thou shalt not kill means just that"!

Here's an interesting question to ponder: Was Jesus "tough on crime"? It's hard to say but I think that it bears mentioning that, at the moment of his death He implored God to take pity on his executioners.

"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do".

No sending one-hundred and fifty people to their deaths is not, to be sure, a very Christ-like thing to do. They would have had better luck had they been stem cells.

Abraham Lincoln was a blessed and merciful man who, though not a Christian in the strictest sense of the word was, in reality, our most Christ-like president. He would go out of his way to find loopholes to avoid executing deserting soldiers during the Civil War (Fortunately for Bush, capitol punishment for dersertion was a thing of the past by the time he went AWOL from the Air National Guard in 1972). Like Christ, Lincoln would end up being exectuted by the enemies of righteousness. At his first inaugural, on March 4, 1861, he pleaded with the rebelling southerners to be guided by the "better angels" of their nature. Can you imagine Dubya under the sa,e circumstances?

BING 'EM ON"!!!

Now admit it! It makes you sick just thinking about it, doesn't it? C'MON BE HONEST!

Pray for peace

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

» Astroboy: Posted by: Tom Degan
» No, Father forgive them for... Posted by: fifthworld
» Hello Douglas... Posted by: Steve Adair
» Hello Steve Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Hello Steve Posted by: Steve Adair
Bush, Cheney, Neocons, Zionist Izraelis, Christian Evangelicals all, are devils
Posted by: mat38 on Sep 23, 2006 4:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's not one of them who is not a Devil hellbent on bombong the world in the name of freeodm.

Bush will go down in history
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Sep 23, 2006 4:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But he can't get much lower. (:>)
Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.

» RE: rock bottom Posted by: Gregor
» Dig it Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: Bush will light up in history Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: Bush will go down in history...sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
Chavez our hero...!!
Posted by: baldo on Sep 23, 2006 4:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what's wrong in calling Bush a 'devil' ??
It seems to me like a compliment... considering all the LIES, CRIMES against humanity and the other despicable acts we all know about...
Your Commander in thief sooner or later will be indicted as a War Criminal, and if the same parameters of the Nurimberg trials would apply, Bush, at best, will be facing a firing squad.
Hopefully Dick Cheney, Tony Blair and Johnny Howard, just to mention a few, will follow the Shrub's fate.

» RE: Chavez our hero...!! Posted by: vkobaya
» RE: Chavez our hero...!! Posted by: vkobaya
» RE: Chavez our hero...!! Posted by: Nietzsche
Off Topic: OBL dead?
Posted by: Benjaminsjw on Sep 23, 2006 5:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A french newspaper is quoting Saudi secret service sources who claim OBL died of Typhoid in Pakistan some weeks ago.

I have yet to see any mention of this on BBC or CNN websites.

If confirmed it would at least be better than having the Bushites suddenly capture the guy some days before the elections.

» RE: Off Topic: OBL dead? Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Off Topic: OBL dead? Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: Off Topic: OBL dead? Posted by: davewuxi
» RE: Off Topic: OBL dead? Posted by: pelle_in_goal
» Been dead about 4 years Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: Off Topic: OBL dead?..sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
Chavez is poster boy for Progressives
Posted by: Conservasaurus on Sep 23, 2006 5:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, while Chavez's comments at the UN were one of the most unifying events to take place in America since 9-11, Progressives come out FOR his insults to the office of the United States.

This is a good thing. Anti American events like these, and the continual support of the far left to anything anti American, will only prove to ensure the failure AGAIN of the Progressive agenda in this country!

Like I've said before as Chavez's comments were being made, he is not only insulting the man in the office, he insulted the office and everyone in this country!

I am happy to say that it appears most American's see it that way, left or right!

You may dislike Bush, but what ever your opinion, he's OUR President and while we can bash him if we like, when a leader from another country comes in our country and insults him, you are either American and will defend the office and country or you'r apparently Progressive, and don't really care about the country!

Keep making crazy anti American statements and keep cheering dictators like Chavez.. elections aren't too far away!

» I do need help! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» you have it wrong Posted by: Metesh-ah
» RE: you have it wrong Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: He's NOT MY president Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: He's NOT MY president Posted by: Conservasaurus
» BUSH WAS NOT ELECTED Posted by: caru
The problem with "devil" is accuracy
Posted by: moses on Sep 23, 2006 5:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem with calling Bush the devil is that he fits the definition of "anti-christ" so much better.

From Wikipedia:
In Christian eschatology and Islam, the Antichrist, Anti-christ or Dajjal (literally: anti, opposite; christ, messiah) has come to mean a person, image of a person, or other entity that is the embodiment of evil and utterly opposed to truth, according to Christianity, while convincingly disguised as wholly good and a bringer of truth.

I'm afraid you can't argue with that, it pretty much defines the Bush presidency, except for the possibility of haggling over the"convincing" part. Calling W the devil implies that he's supernatural. Apart from being supernaturally moronic there's no evidence he's anything more than a pure, craven, deeply flawed human.

No he isn't
Posted by: Ellie1 on Sep 23, 2006 5:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
George Bush is not OUR president, he is YOUR president, YOUR liar, and YOUR fascist. He was not elected, he was selected by shannigans with voting machines and Supreme Courts. And he has disgraced this country. By the way, conservasouraus, you are pathetic.

» Bravo, mate ! Posted by: baldo
» RE: Bravo, mate ! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: No he isn't Posted by: badkitty68
» conservasouraus, you are pathetic Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: conservasouraus, you are pathetic Posted by: longlivecheney
» Yes he isn't Posted by: YogiBear
Sure Chavez should've been more tactful...
Posted by: fredo1012 on Sep 23, 2006 5:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love the guy Chavez, marverick, essentric and all. He talks straight and foul much of the time, but he is a doer who has the people's hearts - most of Venezuelans, of course. Our President Bush is another story, one I won't get into here.

Should President Chavez have called another world president a devil, certainly not. But what moral justification do we Americans have for our own President to label other nations as "Axis of Evil"? And he has done this repeatedly without any outcry from our press. Now, can anyone see why Fmr Sec of State Powell came out swinging recently that America was losing its moral credibility around the world?

» Also the devil is Posted by: fifthworld
Lets see, someone tries to perpetually kill me & sabotage my country,.....
Posted by: Prophit on Sep 23, 2006 6:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.......steal my countries enormous resources, undermind the democratically elected President of my country and in return all I do is call him a devil then that is worse???? LOL

See, this article is right on.......... one set of rules for the idiot fascists and another set for the SURVIVORS of this fascist regime. Unbelievable. I read that speech and the only reason I think he should have kept the name calling out and the only reason the pundits are focusing on it, is because the speech itself was fabulous, truthful and pointed. It was a great speech and he undermind it with the name calling.

Having said that, he may actually be right. If your Christian you know already that Satan rules this world and toward end times, he emerges to use all his ability to bring it down. In revelations it says that "DECEIT AND DISHONESTY" will increase and become the norm. SO MAYBE CHAVEZ IS ACCURATE IN HIS ASSESSMENT. Maybe Bush really is Satan. I certainly think that of Cheney, just not sure if Bush is or is a retarded puppet.

Johanna moren
Posted by: Johanna Moren on Sep 23, 2006 6:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think this article is right. After all George Bush can call whole countries Axis of Evil. He might think he is the leader of the world, but, he hasn't been elected to that position by a democratic vote world wide. He would have to rig the elections as he does at home to win,I am sure.
As the article says, "Someone had the guts to stand up and tell the truth." Now, we know that THAT is a cardinal sin in America. No WMD's no connection to Bin Laden, no terrorists,
No Nuclear weapons, no chemical factories, so, one can see that the truth is very unwelcome. You know what they say about liars,once they start they can't stop. One lie just leads to another.Johanna Moren.
I have never enjoyed a UN get together like this one.I stayed up until 2.30 in the morning to hear Mr. Iran and I wasn't disappointed.

» Who needs WMDs Posted by: ossiechic
Satanic reference
Posted by: Dianka on Sep 23, 2006 6:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Refering to Bush as the devil was not a matter of "name calling", but a statement made from a Christian perspective. It must be understood in that context. For those who aren't religious believers or familiar with the New Testament, the Bush administration is eerily consistent with the N.T. description of Satan. Jesus said that we'll "know them by their works", and was clear about emphasizing that Satan is the "Father of Lies", who brings death and destruction. While Bush wages war, he drones on about being a Peace-keeper.
While stripping away the fundamental rights of Americans, he drones on about our freedoms. He embodies hypocrisy (as does Satan), and brings "great suffering to the world". There are many who believe that Bush/Cheney is, in fact, Satan, heralding in the End Times, and that belief is founded on comparing the events since Bush took over with the Biblical description of the End Times. That encompasses a range of events from massive storms and floods to rapidly spreading war to poverty and death.

So, this statement wasn't at all "name calling", but rather, a declaration of recognition of the evil believed to exist in the White House today. Whether one shares these beliefs or not isn't the point. The point is, this statement does reflect the beliefs/fears of many, many Christians today.

US is a nation of land grabbing, resource robbing and empire
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Sep 23, 2006 7:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The rest of the world knows this. Americans are clueless. Why?

There is a huge amount of resources by true investigative journalists, ex CIA, DIA, DEA, FBI and others that back this up. It is too bad that too many people don't get out of their propaganda chair and do some research.

"The CIA is not now nor has it ever been a central intelligence agency. It is the covert action arm of the President's foreign policy advisers. In that capacity it overthrows or supports foreign governments while reporting 'intelligence' justifying those activities. It shapes its intelligence, even in such critical areas as Soviet nuclear weapons capability, to support presidential policy. Disinformation is a large part of its covert action responsibility, and the American people are the primary target of its lies." -- Ralph McGehee former CIA intelligence analyst "Deadly Deceits: My 25 Years in the CIA"

American News is run by big corporation interlocking directorates:

interlocks that exist between big media and big business. Here are a few examples:

1. The New York Times interlocks with the Carlyle Group, Eli Lilly, Ford, Johnson and Johnson, Hallmark, Staples, Pepsi, and Lehman Brothers.

2. The Washington Post interlocks with Lockheed Martin, Coca-Cola, Dun & Bradstreet, Gillette, G.E. Investments, J.P. Morgan, and Moody’s.

3. The Chicago Tribune and the L.A. Times interlock with 3M, Allstate, Caterpillar, Conoco Phillips, Kraft, McDonalds, Pepsi, Quaker Oats, Shering Plough, and Wells Fargo.

4. News Corp (Fox) interlocks with British Airways and Rothschild Investments.

5. GE (NBC) interlocks with Anheuser-Busch, Avon, Bechtel, Chevron/Texaco, Coca-Cola, Dell, GM, Home Depot, Kellog, J.P. Morgan, Microsoft, Motorola, and Procter & Gamble.

6. Disney (ABC) interlocks with Boeing, Northwest Airlines, Clorox, Estee Lauder, FedEx, Gillette, Halliburton, Kmart, Staples, Yahoo, and McKesson.

7. Viacom (CBS) interlocks with American Express, Consolidated Edison, Oracle, and Lafarge North America.

8. AOL-Time Warner (CNN) interlocks wtth Citigroup, Estee Lauder, Colgate-Palmolive, and Hilton.

...and the list keeps going

Prescott Bush was instrumental in the rize of Hitler and the creation of NAZI Germany along with many US corporations such as ITT, IBM, DuPont, … George W. Bush has
Most of the people of the former US will follow without question as we have for over 100 years. We have all swallowed the fabrications that have made up American history that we have been brainwashed with. Presidential doctrines have been progressively more agressive since Monroe and there hasn’t been a peep from the public about America’s rush to the world wide empire with it’s tentacles wrapped around over 100 countries with several hundred standing military bases. Few if any people realize the slaughter of native people and degeneration of living conditions in countries that the US has imposed on most of the countries around the globe for cheap oil, electronics, clothes…

» Truth, More entertaining than deceptive media! Posted by: common intelligence
I agree with Chavez....
Posted by: yank in london on Sep 23, 2006 7:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...but I've had experts tell me isn't. I'm confused!

Bush Sees Terrorism Everywhere But Not In Himself
Posted by: pelle_in_goal on Sep 23, 2006 8:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chavez's tongue-in-cheek "devil" reference was about Bush claiming in all but name to have been anointed by God to battle terrorism anywhere and everywhere he sees fit. And when you're not all that bright -- but are that delusional -- you might see a terrorist behind...well...every bush. Even convince yourself that you can kill them by remote control: either with conventional weapons, wing-nut pundits, or what's left of the US military.

The Devil can't see his own reflection in a mirror, so I'd say that Chavez's reference was spot on. We know the Devil can even make otherwise "good" people -- like Rush Limburger and "Little Fanny Annie" Coulter -- do bad things they're somehow never sued for.

After calling Bush "el Diablo," El Presidente then crossed himself in a gesture of "piety" as if to ward off this alleged evil spirit. Many in the audience giggled. They knew Chavez meant his characterization of Bush as Satan was meant to be taken as black humor and sarcasm. Truth is, almost everybody needed a good laugh after sitting through Bush's neurotic demagogy the day before.

Hugo Chavez is an effective speaker who reflects genuine thought and empathy in his oratory. Even humor: the one thing he does share with Bush in public speaking. The difference here is that Bush's humor is more often self-defecating...I mean self-deprecating...than Chavez's usually is. Wait a minute...no I don't. Bush seems to be increasingly sh*tting himself over the mess he's made of everything he's touched. As for George Bush actually having genuine empathy for anyone worth less than $50 million: he'd have to be beamed up to some alien mother ship for anal diagnosis and treatment.

The devil is being maligned here...
Posted by: Idunno on Sep 23, 2006 8:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unlike Bush, he (She?) was at one time an angel.

» Too much credit to parenting Posted by: fifthworld
Satan's Helpers
Posted by: Democritus on Sep 23, 2006 8:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Hugo Chavez is right, those supping with President Bush had best employ a long spoon. As for Limbaugh, Hannity, Scarborough, and O'Reilly, they are nothing more than the devil's scabrous demons--flying monkeys in the employ of an evil power, chattering away as if they had brains in their heads instead of fried mush.

THANK YOU!
Posted by: bogtrotters on Sep 23, 2006 9:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's about time someone had the guts to say this: what WAS wrong with what Chavez said? Nothing wrong with his accuracy--or his sense of humor.

OUT OF LINE???? Out of LINE???
Posted by: WitchyNy on Sep 23, 2006 9:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
His comments were out of line? Are you KIDDING me?

And it was not just the right that was busy defending Bush yesterday. Democrats were too....which really makes me wonder if trying to get Democrats elected next term is worth it.

» Will you get to vote in November? Posted by: fifthworld
Where Goeth Hugo Chavez: Mediocrity or Thug? (Or Both)
Posted by: michaelo on Sep 23, 2006 9:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
by Michael O'McCarthy on Sat 23 Sep 2006 11:25 AM

A Response to: Mother Jones’ Must Read:
Hugo Chavez: Mediocrity or Thug? (Or Both?)
MoJo Blog Vol. 4, Issue 38, September 22, 2006


The elitist, espresso café, white American faux Left’s spokespersons, Kos, Cooper and Julian Brookes join the New Axis of American Idiocy, Rush, Joe, Nancy, Charlie. Shit, name any of them! They’re at it again!


Jesus, Mary and Joseph: which part of Chavez's broadside against the mentally ill, Holy Roller, Conevangelical, Messianic, Self-Will Run Riot, Born One More Fucking Time, Christian, George W., (I wanna die right now and sit on the right side of Jesus,) Bush didn't they like?

That Chavez called him "The Devil?"

Are you just nuts? Chavez is a Catholic from a predominantly Catholic region. Did you perhaps want a discourse based on Hinduism?

And as for Marc Cooper’s “blistering attack,” as hyped by, God Save Us from these fucking creepy, elitist, faux-socialist from the tome of the New American Left, Mother Jones, re, Julian Brookes, they thus sum up their take in the words of LA’s, yep, LA as the citadel of the American Left:

For the balance of the article See: http://blog.radioleft.com/blog/

Chavez Should Be Sued...
Posted by: Carl Street on Sep 23, 2006 9:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... by the Devil -- after all even the Devil should not have to be insulted by being compared with Bush... :)

» RE: Chavez Should Be Sued... Posted by: Moira61
» RE: Chavez Should Be Sued... Posted by: albiegf13
There is an elephant in the House!
Posted by: activatenow87 on Sep 23, 2006 9:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An open letter to every Democratic leader who condemned Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez’s indictment of George W. Bush as a dictator and an enemy of the world:

What should upset you (Democrats AND Republicans) about Chavez's speech at the United Nations is the fact that it takes an outsider to come to America and point out the obvious. There is an elephant in the House.

If you want to save America, then do something, but don't waste our time (those of us who are actually trying) complaining about someone who has the courage to tell you what you should already know. When the votes of the people and by the people are corrupted, the system is no longer democratic.


You have the power, indeed the responsibility, to maintain democracy in this country; the only way to accomplish this job is to shut down the DIEBOLD machine. Each American has the right to vote on a paper ballot, a right guaranteed by the Constitution. The mechanism for exercising this right is called the Absentee Ballot System.


Absentee voter requirements vary by state, with some states requiring that requests for paper (absentee) ballots be submitted 30 days prior to election. Thus you have about two weeks to research and deliver the information that can save democracy. If you don't want Chavez criticizing America, then start acting like an American.

Sincerely,
A Rogue Witch and A Runaway Elf

Could be true, y'never know
Posted by: Gregor on Sep 23, 2006 10:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not that we in our simple brains even know what is going on spiritually in the world. But all the politicians resort to namecalling: How else do you explain Bush insulting other countries by calling them Axis of Evil? What I don't get is Americans getting their fur in a lather over it. When are Americans going to realize this isn't team sports we are playing, we are fighting for the quality of our OWN lives, not our "team". And the quality of American lives is dismally dwindling because of our current administration. Grow up.

» Our OWN lives? Posted by: fifthworld
edsawall
Posted by: edsawall on Sep 23, 2006 10:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I could not have said it better.

?
Posted by: Roverton on Sep 23, 2006 10:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wasn't there supposed to be a false Christ before the real one appears?

Chavez is to be admired
Posted by: sharmina on Sep 23, 2006 10:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everything I read and hear about Chavez in the ALTERNATIVE media is right on target with what is really going on in Venezuela. Conversely, the mainstream media continues to demonize Chavez and even call him a thug....how's that for impartial broadcast journalism, when CNN people call him a thug on air, and falsify every single d etail of what he does abroad, for humanitarian missions, or at home. Shame on the media, all of them!! We are a disgusting country of sheep who believe anything and anyone, including Ahmad Chalabi.

I admire Chavez tremendously because:
- He stands up to the US administration's bullying
- Stands with his brothers and sisters, the poor in America, by providing cut rate heating oil so no one will die without it this winter...even as this country treats him like trash. What is wrong with us???
- For the first time, for so many peasants in the Venezuelan countryside, they now have access to medical care and a dentist...because of the exchange of medical and dental practictioners from Cuba, for low cost oil to that country. That is called being intelligent, progressive, compassionate and responsible to the people, especially to the poor masses in rural Venezuela. What are we doing for our poor? Making things worse!
- Petro dollars are going, not for the wealthy elite in Venezuela as in previous decades, but now to social programs for the poor. "Viva la revolucion bolivariana y viva Chavez! Yes, I'm a Chavista and can only hope that some of these progressive concepts will seep into American culture and society. But I fear that we will continue to be lost in our consumer frenzy, egoism as we use 25% of the world's resources even though we're only 5% of the world's population, and as we eat our way into more obesity and moral decrepitude, watching Fox news as we remain in our collective shameful coma.

Chavez is not only a breath of fresh air, but a desperately needed truth teller who lays it all out like it is. It is shameful that no one in the Democratic party can stand up and say what is happening to this country, and that only a foreign leader has the courage to do it. He's a modern day hero, in my opinion, and his economic model represents an intelligent, alternative model to the US's for this century. I'm with him 100%.
!Viva Chavez!

What's wrong with it?
Posted by: owlbear1 on Sep 23, 2006 10:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why it give Bushies the vapors.

Its okay to call for nuking State Department HQ, as long as you're a glowing white Republican.

Its okay to call for Bombing the Newspapers and cities, as long as you're a glowing white Republican.

George Bush is fucking stamping his feets and whining about what kinds of "Inhumane and Degrading" Interogation Tactics he can use on whomever he decides.

But somebody call him 'the devil' and OH LORDY get the salts!!

Its called AVOIDANCE!

Its typical behavior for bloodthirsty warmongering bigots when confronted with the consequences of their dysfunctions.

The Anti-Christ
Posted by: bettyn on Sep 23, 2006 10:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Bush isn't the devil, he is surely the Anti-Christ. Chavez got it right. Incidentally, I think Cheney is the DEVIL. He's the one running the show.

What's Wrong With Calling Bush A Devil?
Posted by: Kuber on Sep 23, 2006 11:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing, 'cept it gives the dunce democrats a chance to rally behind their fine and angelic leader who left American people floating like flotsam in the filthy sewage waters of New Orleans.

Funnily enough, I can't imagine Hugo Chavez deserting Venezuelans or Castro deserting Cubans during a hurricane.

A leader without basic humanity and a feeling of empathy for his own people floating in filth is what?
Do we even need outsiders to tell us the kind of being he is?

» RE: Nancy Pelosi is NOT a conservative Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Cuba as a thriving Economy? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Cuba as a thriving Economy? Posted by: countingdaisies
» America First! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: America First! Posted by: countingdaisies
BUSH the figurehead,looses head, acts insane
Posted by: Burtonger on Sep 23, 2006 11:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
EL DIABLOCO is what bushco ARE,CHENEY is driver of the death train and bush is just the front.
THE ENTIRE WORLD will be sanctioning and boycotting the fools in america very soon if nothing is done about the criminally insane leadership,these highjackers of america's democracy are real INTERNATIONAL WAR CRIMINALS and if they dare to travel in the future will be arrested by some honest righteous country and taken to THE HAUGE for prosecution and executed,something americans should do,americans let this happen to THE WORLD and will not escape KARMA. And it's not a law lawyers/ liars can change....
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH AMERICANS ? IGNORANCE,ARROGANCE,NO SOULS-F*CKED
Stand up or die from complacency,either way you will get what is deserved.

UNPRECEDENTED APPLAUSE
Posted by: rwa on Sep 23, 2006 11:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apparently the world, if not American politicians, was in tune with Chavez. He seems to be a real leader.

» Chavez' audience is Hugo. Posted by: edith
» RE: Chavez' audience is Hugo? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Chavez' audience is Hugo. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Oh, and Conservasaurus ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Gotta disagree Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Gotta disagree Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Gotta disagree Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Oh, and Conservasaurus ... Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Oh, and Conservasaurus ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Oh, and Conservasaurus ... Posted by: longlivecheney
» OK.. when in Alternet............... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Of course not, don't be silly (NT) Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Legal/moral Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Legal/moral Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Legal/moral Posted by: Joshua Holland
» And let me just emphasize ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: And let me just emphasize ... Posted by: Conservasaurus
GW's not powerful enough to be the devil.
Posted by: robin on Sep 23, 2006 11:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The devil is slick and smooth and silver tongued and has the power to fool and misguide and manipulate.
George W. Bush is more like a nasty little spider monkey,
ill-trained and induldged,scheming to steal peanuts;screeching
and gamboling about and occasionally performing a trick or a task,reluctantly,for some visceral treat tossed to him by the master...the master who perhaps is the devil.
I do, however,respect and applaud Presidente Chavez."Thank you,sir, say for seizing the opportunity to publicly voice what so many of us dream of proclaiming.You are truly a leader for the people."

I sympathize, but....
Posted by: whoever on Sep 23, 2006 11:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, it's satisfying and fulfilling to see a world leader have the courage to defy the world-dictator-wannabe, Bush. It's funny to see the neonazis call Chavez a dictator when his electoral victories are much less tainted by corruption, big money, and manipulation than Bush's. Conservatives do not know what democracy is.

Nevertheless, I think Chavez should've refrained from calling Bush the Devil. The act is too similar to Bush's "Axis of Evil" speech, which was similarly close to accurate (really), but very stupid as diplomacy. It got us into our current situation, with real threats of nuclear war involving Iran and/or Korea--not that we wouldn't win if we were a target, but that millions would die and that nonproliferation has bitten the dust (delighting, no doubt, Bush's defense-industry friends). World leaders can't indulge themselves in petty pleasures--that is one of the lessons of the Bush reign.

Colleen
Posted by: vojak on Sep 23, 2006 1:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't see how Chavez calling Bush the "devil" is any different from the "axis of evil" rhetoric put forth by Bush.

TYPICAL CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN MISSING THE POINT AS ALWAYS
Posted by: Joe Rollins on Sep 23, 2006 1:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I'm assuming you're not American..then your comment is ok.. if you're an American, and you feel that way.. buy a ticket to Venezuela.. I hear it's so liberal down there"

TYPICAL CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN MISSING THE POINT AS ALWAYS.. ALWAYS TRYING TO BRAND US TRUE PATRIOTS, I.E., DISSIDENTS WHO DESPISE BUSH BECAUSE WE LOVE OUR COUNTRY AND CARE ABOUT IT, AS 'UNPATRIOTIC' OR 'HATING AMERICA.' SUCH PEOPLE ARE INTELLECTUAL MIDGETS WHO ARE TOO BLIND TO SEE THAT TRUE PATRIOTS ARE THOSE WHO QUESTION THEIR LEADERS, WHO CHALLENGE THEIR LEADERS BECAUSE THEY ARE OUR PUBLIC SERVANTS AND WANT THEM TO WORK FOR THE GOOD OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, NOT TO LINE THE POCKETS OF WAR PROFITEERS BY LAUNCHING ILLEGAL WARS. SILLY "REBUTTALS" LIKE TELLING ME HOW I SHOULD MOVE TO VENEZUELA DO NOT CONVINCE ME TO YOUR SIDE, THEY REINFORCE, IF ANYTHING, MY STAUNCH BELIEF THAT CONSERVATIVES ARE LACKING IN INTELLECT AND/OR CONSCIENCE.

Ahhh - nothing like some American wisdom . . .
Posted by: MAD on Sep 23, 2006 1:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Quick question - how many of you have actually been to Venezuela since Hugo took power – or have ever been for that matter? How many have regular interaction with Venezuelans? How many of you speak from experience in the country or simply believe what you read on websites because you so desperately want to believe that there is an alternative to that moron you call a president? In the meantime you are completely oblivious to any negative attributes or actions while lathered up in this pro-Hugo frenzy. It's funny how quickly reason gives way to fanaticism in the States. It's similarly funny and sad how very extreme you all are. There is little room for rational discourse and any kind of middle ground is rarely reached. Your ridiculous two party system is a good example (imagine that - 300 million people equally divided between Dems and Reps). He [Hugo] is either a celestial being or a thug but none of you can seem to resign yourselves to the fact that he is probably both!!

This is not to imply that Chavez is not taking the country in the right direction in certain aspects because he most certainly is; but what I am seeing here is typical American bandwagon behaviour. The vast majority of you (like most Yanks I know) don't know more than what sites like Alternet or LGF tell you to think and are quite content to fall in line behind someone you have not adequately researched on your own. I suspect this is primarily because it's easier to add your own drop to the existing ocean of drivel rather than take both sides of the argument into consideration and reach your own conclusion. I sometimes forget that we are dealing with a country that created a cult of personality around Paris Hilton though.

If I had a dollar for every instance of an Alternet user cursing the MSM for their lack of fair reporting I would be a millionaire yet here you are squawking and gushing over St. Hugo like a bunch of parrots. This is fair reporting in your minds? You crucify the MSM on a regular basis but when reporting on Venezuela's economy Hugo's own internal PR machine suffices? "No doubt about it - thing are going swimmingly according to Hugo." Much of that upbeat economic and social info is gleaned from his own press releases or from the MSM. So long as news is presented in an easily digestible form and with the appropriate slant for Reps or Dems it must be gospel and no further intellectual discernment is necessary.

The vast majority of you cannot speak to his past without using Wikipedia and because of the momentum behind the comments here, most of you would find yourselves incapable of referring to him in any other way than "Saint Hugo of Sabaneta".
It's interesting that so many of you speak against militarism but in Chavez you have the perfect embodiment of a die-hard militarist who is arming every man, woman and child in the country. I know, I know - it's for self-defense. It's equally impressive how many of you Americans speak for the average Venezuelan on the street. You know firsthand how impressive job growth has been and you know that hospitals are springing up on every corner without having set one foot in the country. You also haven't had your name appear on a website because you signed a recall petition in 2004 or had your family and friends intimidated or beaten because they had the temerity to disagree with St. Hugo’s policies.

You call yourselves Progressives? Most of you are anything but. Say what you will about conservatives but not many of you appear to think for yourselves either. This was the best example of an echo chamber I have ever witnessed. Such wisdom from a country of 300 million of whom only 60 million actually possess passports – LOL!

» By the way Posted by: fifthworld
MAD are you a Venezula Landowner???
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 23, 2006 2:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been to Venezuela often and know all about Chavez. Here in Miami, we have many who are against Chavez. The bottom line on all of them, they were/are all in the top 1% in Venezuela and have fled by taking there money and themselves out of Venezuela. Good riddance to them. MAD you are probably one of them. (thanks by the way for jacking up Miami real-estate prices with your stolen money). Venezuela was, and still mostly is, a country where the vast majority lives in extreme poverty and squalor. Caracas was/is surrounded by vast slums. Look what these wealthy landowners just cannot stand is that Chavez took mostly unused land, much of it without really clear title as to who owned it, and paid fair market value to the rich landowners to give it to the poor. What the rich and USA further cannot stand is that Chavez has upped taxes to 30% on exported oil and is plowing the money into social development. I do admit there is a long ways to go. But, there is finally hope for the teeming millions of the poor of Venezuela. Also, I see no diminuation on freedom of speech in Venezuela. You can so whatever you want. I don't see political prisoners either. In the USA, I see FOX news and CNN and its all propaganda. Say whatever you want in the USA? I don't think so, not if you want to keep your job. As for Hugo, he lives now in fear. The last coup attempt was pure CIA and this will continue.

» RE: MAD are you a Venezula Landowner??? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: MAD are you a Venezula Landowner??? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: MAD are you a Venezula Landowner??? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: MAD are you a Venezula Landowner??? Posted by: countingdaisies
Who gives a shit?
Posted by: Joshua Holland on Sep 23, 2006 2:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think everyone is missing the point. I mean, it's all about us, right?

No.

Chavez is no dummy, he has an election coming up in December, he leads Manuel Rosales by 13 points in the latest poll, which is a lot smaller margin than that to which he's become accustomed, and obviously he believes this plays well at home. He's probably right -- I wouldn't bet against his political instincts.

For us, though, it's a distraction. The article's title is right: what is wrong with calling Bush the devil? Nothing -- it's just words, and he got a few laughs and some applause. I'm more worried about Iraq coming apart, about torture, about the economy -- things like that -- and you should be as well.

And for all you easily-offended goons: he didn't come onto "our" territory and say anything -- the united Nations campus is international territory. Just like the Vatican isn't part of Italy even though it's in the middle of Rome.

» RE: Who gives a shit? Posted by: Mr. Danger
» Ah, yes ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Who gives a shit? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Who gives a shit? Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Who gives a shit? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Who gives a shit? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Who gives a shit? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Oh, and ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Oh, and ... Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Oh, and ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Who gives a shit? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Who gives a shit? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Who gives a shit? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Who gives a shit? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Who gives a shit? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Who gives a shit? Posted by: Joshua Holland
Excerpts of Chavez Speach
Posted by: rwa on Sep 23, 2006 3:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"They say they want to impose a democratic model. But that's their democratic model. It's the false democracy of elites, and, I would say, a very original democracy that's imposed by weapons and bombs and firing weapons.

What a strange democracy. Aristotle might not recognize it or others who are at the root of democracy.

What type of democracy do you impose with marines and bombs?

The president of the United States, yesterday, said to us, right here, in this room, and I'm quoting, "Anywhere you look, you hear extremists telling you can escape from poverty and recover your dignity through violence, terror and martyrdom."

Wherever he looks, he sees extremists. And you, my brother -- he looks at your color, and he says, oh, there's an extremist. Evo Morales, the worthy president of Bolivia, looks like an extremist to him.

The imperialists see extremists everywhere. It's not that we are extremists. It's that the world is waking up. It's waking up all over. And people are standing up.

I have the feeling, dear world dictator, that you are going to live the rest of your days as a nightmare because the rest of us are standing up, all those who are rising up against American imperialism, who are shouting for equality, for respect, for the sovereignty of nations.

Yes, you can call us extremists, but we are rising up against the empire, against the model of domination.

The president then -- and this he said himself, he said: "I have come to speak directly to the populations in the Middle East, to tell them that my country wants peace."

That's true. If we walk in the streets of the Bronx, if we walk around New York, Washington, San Diego, in any city, San Antonio, San Francisco, and we ask individuals, the citizens of the United States, what does this country want? Does it want peace? They'll say yes.

But the government doesn't want peace. The government of the United States doesn't want peace. It wants to exploit its system of exploitation, of pillage, of hegemony through war.

It wants peace. But what's happening in Iraq? What happened in Lebanon? In Palestine? What's happening? What's happened over the last 100 years in Latin America and in the world? And now threatening Venezuela -- new threats against Venezuela, against Iran?

He spoke to the people of Lebanon. Many of you, he said, have seen how your homes and communities were caught in the crossfire. How cynical can you get? What a capacity to lie shamefacedly. The bombs in Beirut with millimetric precision?

This is crossfire? He's thinking of a western, when people would shoot from the hip and somebody would be caught in the crossfire.

This is imperialist, fascist, assassin, genocidal, the empire and Israel firing on the people of Palestine and Lebanon. That is what happened."

» There you have it Posted by: fifthworld
El Diablo
Posted by: willymack on Sep 23, 2006 3:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only reason Chavez called bush a devil is because he doesn't know enough English to call him a scumbag.

» RE: l Diablo Posted by: Moira61
right on
Posted by: ShoShenQ on Sep 23, 2006 4:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
exactly.

If the shoe fits ...
Posted by: Jeanne on Sep 23, 2006 5:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm glad someone was able to get to the microphone to state the obvious. Most of us are relegated to irrelevant rantings like this. I'm glad someone could get on the world stage and label that thing that occupies the White House for what he is.

how many of you have actually been to Venezuela
Posted by: dkm on Sep 23, 2006 5:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many of us have been to Iraq? Outside the military, not many, so does that mean we can't comment on Iraq based on what we read? Does that mean we can't comment on poverty based on what we read even though few of us using this message board are impoverished?

The alternate news is certainly a lot more likely to be reliable than the MSM if only because those who write on it are not basing their statements on their pocketbooks. Besides, those of us who do know Venezuelans know that Chavez is doing a lot more for the poor than the elite ever did. Aside: Why is it that the elite never learn?! In country after country the elite have stomped the poor under foot until eventually there was no other course than violence, and then the elites scream "foul!" JFK knew what he was talking about when he said, "When peaceful change is impossible, violent change becomes inevitable."

It is true, however, that many Americans don't seriously analyze their sources of information or the information that comes from them. But that applies to every other country in the world, too. You should hear some of the folk wisdom that gets passed around in Mexico.

What Bull!
Posted by: lterhune on Sep 23, 2006 5:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry to burst your little misguided bubble, however, your “article” does not point out a few things.

A. Rush is a talk show entertainment sort of personality, not the dictator head of an entire country or the head of the Republican Party.
B. Hugo, a dictator who denies that there was a holocaust, an evil man who is filled with hate and who will not outlaw sex-trafficking of children. He is hardly anyone to call anyone else the devil.
C. Rush didn’t venture out to Hugo’s home to stand on the soil he rules and tell him he was a devil.
D. Calling the democrat party ‘devil’ by Rush is not calling the leader of a country on their land devil.
E. The democrat party leader has called Bush and the entire Republican party lots of names and he is a leader.
F. A lot of democrat leaders and personalities came out saying Hugo was wrong for coming into our country and saying such childish things.
G. One would think you would defend your own country, regardless of the leadership from a man who’s poor dictator leadership is closing thousands of businesses each year and who is leading them to their own demise.

This article is ridiculous, utterly infantile (as are many of the replies). People; get a friggin grip!

» RE: What Bull! Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: What Bull! Posted by: lterhune
» Bull, indeed Posted by: Joshua Holland
» And WTF? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: And WTF? Posted by: lterhune
» RE: And WTF? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Wrong-o Posted by: YogiBear
» Get some sleepy-poo, Iterhune Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: What Bull! Posted by: mdruss42
what ever little one!
Posted by: lterhune on Sep 23, 2006 6:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most honest speech? OMG! Since it is obviously not true, your perception is clearly off, juvenile and really - you should be embarrassed.

I object
Posted by: J. C. Miller on Sep 23, 2006 6:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chavez reportedly not only referred to Our President as the devil, but suggested that he exhibits psychopathology and has, in effect, engaged in war crimes. As an American, I object to the obvious mistruths - the President is neither red in color, nor has a long tail with a sharp point on the end.

» RE: I object Posted by: tiellis
» RE: I object Posted by: lterhune
» I agree Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I object Posted by: YogiBear
calling what an where
Posted by: john henry on Sep 23, 2006 7:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the man is bad but no outside should be cuseing or call him names he is ours an we are the only one that can call him names an we have enough left winger an right winger to do that for everbody

» RE: calling what an where Posted by: lterhune
» RE: calling what an where Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: calling what an where Posted by: HeroesAll
Chavez is the New Model for the Developing World
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 23, 2006 7:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chavez is the new model for the developing world. This model ultimately emerges into a mixture of socialism and capitalism. Chavez is proving this model can and does work and it supplants the former USA model. That model, used for decades, consisted of IMF loans, "free trade" pacts, privatization and military force (ie, SOUTHCOM) to come in "if needed." But none of thet worked to lift Venezuela out of poverty. The vast majority there lives in squalor, along with the other South American countries. But Chavez is proving this can change. As for those who argue against him here on AlterNet, just why does he continue to be elected? Even conservative paundits admit he is wildly popular and at any time can easily capture 60% of the popular vote. Bush is afraid. The new model is emerging.

WHO STARTED THE NAME-CALLING?
Posted by: YANIRA06_66 on Sep 23, 2006 8:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What hypocrisy from the Right-Wing Media Whachos that are inciting illiterate and uninforming Americans to boycott Venzeuela's national gas company because Chavez called Bush the "Devil". What nonsense?

In fact, I recently heard the same comment about Bush while sitting in a military terminal in Guam from a military retiree. He claimed his Mother referred to Bush as the "Devil." And that was prior to Chavez's remarks.

Didn't President Bush start the name-calling rolling by referring to anyone who disagreed with U.S. Foreign Policy as "terrorist?" What about his "axle of evil" comment? Was that a love-token? And, of course, those were public name-calling. Who knows what he says in private.

Yet, we are now on our hind-quarters about the "Devil." Could anyone be more hypocritical than Charlie Rangel of NY? Calling President Bush "my president?" What an insincere twit! And on Fox one female commentator was loss for words when she was asked if U.S. oil companies should match Chavez's kind offer of cheap oil to the poor.

So let's cut the crap! I refer to President Bush as a war criminal and I hope the International Community insist he stand trial for ordering the bombing and military occupation of Iraq. I will leave it to the religious folks to call him the "Devil!"

GOING SOUTH = TWO THUMBS WAY UP
Posted by: caru on Sep 24, 2006 12:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
we all use words to say mean and hateful things to each other. we also use words to be helpful and kind. i propose changing the meaning of GOING SOUTH to now be equivalent to TWO THUMBS WAAAAAYYY UP. that would be thank you, thank you so very much hugo chavez.

Best Anti Americanism is...
Posted by: The Butcher on Sep 24, 2006 3:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When it comes from US Citizens Themselves!
Congrats to all those and Thank you to all those who call a spade a spade on this site!
As a foreigner, the shit you pour on your Administration somehow smells better!
I shit on mine all the time and do not feel less Australian because I do!
Of course Chavez is Grand Standing!
Populism is an Art Form In Latin America! This is their only Defense!
What has he got to lose?
The more noise he makes, the less likely he will be killed. This is self defense! Think Allende!
The US have been raping Latin America for as long as it has existed! Chile ( Copper), Bolivia ( Gaz), Venezuela ( Oil) and the whole of Centro America ( Bananas!)... Black People in Nicaragua ( Bluefields) still speak English! What indictement on your Country!!!!
The word Yanki is Spanish is equivalent to Motherfucker except with the Elite!
American there has very negative connotations. Everywhere! Latin Americans hate Yankis ( Spanish Spelling) for good reasons.
Those upset by a word should read a bit about the History of Latin America!
Latifundias, a form of Slavery is still prevalent in most of these countries! Offended by one word? Bush encompasses all that is evil with the USA! Arrogance, Imposed Power, Violence, Oppression, Corruption.
Time for the US to face up to its History of Greed....
On another Continent, another staunch Ally of the US ( Thaksin Shinawatra) left Thailand with 56 suitcases for a 10 day trip on his specially chartered plane!
Right , has a lot of Suits!
Yes he was a good friend of the US, Sent a contingent to Irak.
The plane stationed in Norway for one week while he was in New York and went back to Bangkok empty!
Chavez????
Please keep the pressure on!
These guys, the Potentats of the US, Thailand, Japan, UK, Australia are really evil!
Of course there is a great conspiracy! What else can explain this doomsday scenario?
Francois

Human Rights Watch on Venezuela
Posted by: PJH67 on Sep 24, 2006 4:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Since winning a national referendum on his presidency in 2004, Hugo Chávez and his majority coalition in Congress have taken steps to undermine the independence of the country’s judiciary by packing the Supreme Court with their allies. They have also enacted legislation that seriously threatens press freedoms and freedom of expression. Several high profile members of civil society have faced prosecution on highly dubious charges, and human rights defenders have been repeatedly accused by government officials of conspiring against the nation. Police violence, torture, and abusive prison conditions are also among the country’s most serious human rights problems."

» RE: Human Rights Watch on Venezuela Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Context ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Context ... Posted by: PJH67
» RE: Context ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
Was Chavez really elected?
Posted by: PJH67 on Sep 24, 2006 4:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From U.S. News & World Report 8/20/04

"Were NY Pollsters Just Playing a Joke on Chavez?" That was the typically cheeky headline on an item about the Venezuela election in The Hotline political digest (nationaljournal.com) this week. The item quoted a press release from the polling firm Penn, Schoen & Berland Assoc. saying, "Exit Poll Results Show Major Defeat for Chavez." The release, dated 7:30 p.m., said, "With Venezuela's voting set to end at 8 p.m. EST according to election officials, final exit poll results from Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates, an independent New York-based polling firm, show a major victory for the 'Yes' movement, defeating Chavez in the Venezuela presidential recall referendum." The poll showed 59 percent in favor of recalling Chavez, 41 percent against.

The next morning, Chavez was declared the winner by an almost exact opposite margin. "About 58 percent said 'no' to a recall, while 42 percent said 'yes,'" wrote the Washington Post.

The Hotline was evidently having a little fun twitting a polling firm. But was the result as clear as they—and official election observer Jimmy Carter—thought? There is good reason to believe it was not. In fact, it's something of a scandal that American news media have been taking the official vote count in Venezuela at face value. There is very good reason to believe that the exit poll had the result right, and that Chavez's election officials—and Carter and the American media—got it wrong.

Let us look at the reasons.

Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez has been running an authoritarian regime. By various means he has taken control of the legislature, the courts, the armed services and the police. His thugs have been intimidating and even killing the regime's opponents. The literature on this is voluminous, but consider these reports from the Wall Street Journal: www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005494 and www.opinionjournal.com/wsj/?id=110005478. Chavez is an ally of Cuba's Fidel Castro and an enemy of the United States, and he has shown no commitment to democratic principles. He sought to block the referendum by extralegal means and, having failed at that, resorted to intimidation to win it. There is no reason to believe that he would stop at election fraud.

One weapon against such fraud is the exit poll. As Doug Schoen of Penn Schoen points out, his firm has conducted exit polls in Mexico and, just a few days ago, in the Dominican Republic, which produced results very close to the election results. His partner Mark Penn points out that the firm conducted two previous exit polls in Venezuela, both of which were on the mark. Warren Mitofsky's firm, Mitofsky International, has produced exit polls with similar results in Mexico and Russia. Mitofsky recalls that in 1994, Mexican President Carlos Salinas, seeking credibility with foreign investors for that year's Mexican elections, asked him for advice on what to do. Allow independent exit polls, Mitofsky advised, sponsored by the media, and allow the results to be announced soon after the voting. Mitofsky's exit poll results, announced soon after the polls closed, did in fact come close to the official results, as did another Mitofsky poll in 2000. More important, they provided independent confirmation of the fairness of the count."

Now, let me get this straight. When this happens in America, everyone on the left says the election was stolen. When in happens in a foreign country, it's all good.

Is that how it works?

» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: Steve Adair
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: Steve Adair
» RE: Was Chavez really elected? Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: Was Bush really elected? Posted by: ignition
Birth Pangs of a Third Awakening
Posted by: wawa on Sep 24, 2006 5:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's remarks at the U.N., during which he referred to President Bush as "the devil," and then held up and recommended Noam Chomsky's, "Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance" he told reporters, "The people of the United States should read this ... instead of the watching Superman movies."

And they are, for as of last Thursday afternoon, "Hegemony or Survival," [published in 2003] leaped into the top 10 on Amazon, and it had been ranked 20,664 the day before.

Could this be the beginning of the birth pangs of a Third Awakening? Could Chavez's book plug be the spark to ignite we the people to begin the painful questioning and confronting of our leaders about the real reasons why some people in the world hate us?

Not long ago, Pat Robertson called for the assassination of Chavez, a most un-Christ like statement. Christ taught that God was already within every human heart and the commandment 'thou halt not kill' was always meant to be taken literally. The illogic and irony of fundamentalism that knits together disparate, obscure and vague biblical passages into literal predictions of future events, while ignoring and defying clear commands is painful for thinking Christians, and Robertson has never spoken for them.

According to a recent poll for the German Marshall Fund reported that 57% of Europeans regard American leadership in world affairs "undesirable" and not just because of Iraq. Europeans worry that Bush's foreign policy is too influenced by religion, and that "America is undergoing a religious revival...evangelical Protestantism and hard-line Catholicism are growing rapidly while 'cool' mainline versions of Christianity are declining...It is also true that Mr. Bush frequently uses religious rhetoric when talking of foreign affairs...he sees the 'war on terror' as a 'confrontation between good and evil' and remarked, "It seems to me there's a Third Awakening". [The Economist]


While Robertson does Christ no favors by claiming to be a follower, the people of America are also subjected to the likes of Lt-General William Boykin, deputy under-secretary of defense for intelligence, who toured the country telling Christian groups that radical Muslims hate America, "because we're a Christian nation and the enemy is a guy named Satan."

If we really were a Christian nation, there would be no manufacturing of WMD and the poor would be housed and fed. The Christian values that Christ taught is not the heresy Boykin preaches, for whom would Jesus bomb? No one.

We live in a nation with a media that allows the most limited and divisive of Christians a voice and little press is given to the likes of Senator Brownback who has led the fight against genocide in Darfur and Mrs. and Pastor Rick Warren, on their focusing on the AIDS epidemic in Africa.

The media has become a stronger influence in shaping American's views on foreign policy than the true tenants of religion in the 21st century. What we have in America today, is a lot of religion about Jesus, but NOT the religion Christ taught. What Christ taught that shocked his world was that God was already within, so one is to be just and merciful to all, and that would lead to working for peaceful resolutions, even to the point of returning violence with compassion.

TBC

TBC: Birth Pangs of the Third Awakening
Posted by: wawa on Sep 24, 2006 5:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This Christian welcomes the birth pangs of a Third Awakening, and another reformation. The pain begins when we look within at the evil that runs through our own hearts, just as the good does.

A third awakening would promote a theology of liberation that puts an end to the hijacking of people's faith by politicians with their theologies of empire building and global dominance and the cult of Christian empire builders that are indigenous to America. This cult embraces a modern theological and political movement of the most extreme ideological positions of Jewish Zionism.
"The Christian Zionist program provides a worldview where the Gospel is identified with the ideology of empire, colonialism and militarism. In its extreme form, it laces an emphasis on apocalyptic events leading to the end of history rather than living Christ's love and justice today...Christian Zionist doctrines [are] false teaching's that corrupt the biblical message of love, justice and reconciliation... the contemporary alliance of Christian Zionist leaders and organizations with elements in the governments of Israel and the United States that are presently imposing their unilateral preemptive borders and domination over Palestine, inevitably leads to unending cycles of violence that undermine the security of all peoples of the Middle East and the rest of the world... Rather than condemn the world to the doom of Armageddon we call upon everyone to liberate themselves from the ideologies of militarism and occupation. Instead, let [us] pursue the healing of the nations!"- Religious Leaders' Statement on Christian Zionism


In every classroom in America the World Map shows the United States in the very center. American Christianity also predisposes many to look at themselves as special, and that leads to thinking that our way of life must be maintained; even by war, and there is nothing Christian about that!

Americans have remained silent for too long and have allowed the hijacking of religion to be used for political gain. Politicians never have-and never can deliver peace and security, they must be led by the people who are the ones who must choose on a daily basis to be peaceful and neighborly.

After the Mohammad cartoon, and the Pope's remarks, "the fierce urgency of now" should compel all thinking Christians and church denominations to move beyond their man-created differences. The time is now to break the silence and speak boldly for the need of reconciliation between the families of Father Abraham in the fight against terrorism, which is also a spiritual battle. Anyone who can target and murder an innocent has allowed evil to rule them and only by people of good will pursuing justice and in support of nonviolence can we hope to change hearts and minds.

A Third Awakening will affirm that all people are created in the image of God and all are called to honor the dignity of every human being and to respect the others inalienable human right to freedom.

A Third Awakening would unite us in the rejection of all attempts to subvert and fragment the unity of the human family and to oppose every narrow world view and ideology that privilege one people at the expense of another.

No enduring peace, no security, and no reconciliation is even possible without the foundation of justice. Justice requires mercy and is always nonviolent.

"It isn't enough to talk about peace. One must believe in it. It isn't enough to believe in it. One must work at it."-Eleanor Roosevelt

By standing on the side of justice, we open ourselves up to the hard work of peace, and working for peace is what Christ promised makes us children of God. May we all be one.


Sources:
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/
The Economist, September 16, 2006 "In the World of Good and Evil"
WAWA Blog 9/24/06

It's pot meet kettle all over again
Posted by: popsicle67 on Sep 24, 2006 6:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Listening to the existing parties in power pound eachother day in and day out is what will kill the democratic process in this country. If people were not so fed up with pundits and wonks
on both sides trying to tout their own moral superiority while
railing at the utter moral desolation displayed be their opponents, they might vote this election. The problem is there is nothing to vote for. Nothing. All of the candidates are cookie-cutter uniform, all the campaigns are run on the same
format, none of the vitriol seems valid. It all is starting to feel like one of those psychology tests you take where the same 20 questions are asked 100 times in different ways to asses the strength of your beliefs. Politics used to be fun when I was a kid, the candidates were often diametrically opposed with no thought that the other guy might be right also.
Equivocation needs to be forgotten and negotiation needs to be punished. For the sake of the country I hope that the next president has a bully pulpit, It worked for Roosevelt ( the good one, not the jackass ).

» RE: Liberal Irrelevancy Posted by: DoctorAndy
Human Rights Watch on the USA
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 24, 2006 7:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Washington’s response to the September 11th attacks reinforced the dangerous view that laudable ends can justify brutal means."
Kenneth Roth, Executive Director


Human Rights Watch has criticized the USA for it's post 911 "round-ups," including illegally holding foreign nationals. Human Rights Watch has criticized the USA for "extraordinary rendition," and the deliberate "out-sourcing" of torture. Human Rights Watch has criticized the USA for Abu Gharib and Guantanamo. Human Rights Watch has criticized US ally Israel for massacring civilians in Lebanon.

Want more Bush Supporters? And you complain about Chavez - he is just small potatoes compared to our criminal in office.

Was GW Bush Ever Really Elected?
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 24, 2006 7:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read/view this:

http://www.bushflash.com/gta.html

And that is just the tip of the iceberg. There have been vast irregularities in US voting and exit polling. Ohio 2004, entirely democratic counties in Ohio report zero votes. Thousands of anti-Bush votes disappear.

And you criticize Chavez. Did you dare to criticize the USA post 911??? An atmosphere of intimidation and coercion exists in the USA against those who do not support Bush to this day. Those who protest can cite many instances of police harassment and illegal spying against them. Here in Miami, when the "Free Trade Agreement" was going on, thousands of protestors were rounded up and beaten. It is now called the "Miami Model." To stifle all dissent.

And then you criticize Chavez.

Bush was never elected himself
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 24, 2006 8:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read/view this:

http://www.bushflash.com/gta.html

And that is just the tip of the iceberg. There have been vast irregularities in US voting and exit polling. Ohio 2004, entirely democratic counties in Ohio report zero votes. Thousands of anti-Bush votes disappear.

And you criticize Chavez. Did you dare to criticize the USA post 911??? An atmosphere of intimidation and coercion exists in the USA against those who do not support Bush to this day. Those who protest can cite many instances of police harassment and illegal spying against them. Here in Miami, when the "Free Trade Agreement" was going on, thousands of protestors were rounded up and beaten. It is now called the "Miami Model." To stifle all dissent.

And then you criticize Chavez.

The Good ole USA is to blame
Posted by: captialism kills on Sep 24, 2006 10:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
NO, dumbass FASCIST AMERICA is to blame.

» RE: The Good ole USA is to blame Posted by: longlivecheney
mdruss42
Posted by: mdruss42 on Sep 24, 2006 10:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HAVE YOU BEEN TO VENEZULA................
NO, BUT HERE IS SOME INFO YOU MAY FIND INTERESTING IF YOU ARE AT ALL INTERESTED IN IMPRESSIONS FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS.......... What about overall impressions? What did I get from this trip?

First of all, much of the public discourse in the US about Venezuela-both from the government and most pundits-is absolute garbage. Hugo Chavez, with all his faults, is not a dictator. Period. Venezuela is a free country, and I felt no sense of repression or even tension on the streets, whether in Caracas, in the mountains, or by the sea. I saw fewer cops on the street in Caracas on any day than I see every day in Chicago. The "tension" that is being reported is being manufactured by an independent press that hates Chavez, whose "crimes" include not being white (he has indigenous and, I believe African blood, in his heritage), being proud of his heritage, and prioritizing the improvement of life for the poor, which includes about 80% of the population. The wealthy have demonized Chavez, and our Diplomatic Corps and our "independent" reporters accept their trash uncritically, and pass it on as if it were gospel. That's not to say that Chavez is perfect or that there are no problems in Venezuela-there definitely are-but to say that if one only recounts the problems and ignores the great progress in the lives of the poor, then one is presenting propaganda as truth.

The gains to the poor are very substantial, and are real. The health care programs are exemplary. To get health care facilities into the barrios is a major success, both in the urban and rural areas-and in addition to being established in these poor areas, they appear to be of very high quality. What this means to a mother who has to take a sick child to a clinic at 3 am, and who gets seen and provided excellent care, is simply indescribable-and when one realizes that she would have had to travel long distances before, during office hours, and then still might not be seen…well, you get the idea.

The educational programs are also exemplary. Chavez' government is devoting tremendous resources to make education available to everyone, and to make college a possibility for all who qualify. No longer are rural kids unable to go to school after third grade. And many adults are back in school today, getting the education they should have gotten when younger but were never able to. Not relying on the Education Ministry, the government has launched "missions" to deliver the education directly to the people-while increasing resources available for the traditional educational system. The hope in students' eyes-students of all ages-is heartwarming and inspiring. Venezuela, incidentally, got a United Nations award for eradicating illiteracy in little over a year.

The co-op we visited was exemplary, but unlike the health care and education programs, is an exception. It is being seen as a model project, from which others can learn, and its members have been willing to share and teach. Yet, cooperatives are exploding across the country, and should be a major source for people's livelihoods as well as reduce Venezuela's traditional dependence on food imports in the upcoming years.

The hope we saw, more than any programs, was in the people's eyes, especially the young. They felt, for the first time in Venezuela's history, that they were part of a country and that they were seen as being valuable. They knew the faith their government had in them-and for the poor, Chavez' is "their" government-and they were responding.

» RE: mdruss42 Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: mdruss42 Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: mdruss42 Posted by: MAD
» RE: mdruss42 Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: mdruss42 Posted by: MAD
» RE: mdruss42 Posted by: mdruss42
"El Diablo" a distraction from the crux of Chavez's speech
Posted by: jdylarid on Sep 24, 2006 11:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First of all, the only problem with calling George Bush Jr. (his life-long moniker before Karl Rove invented "George W. Bush") "El Diablo" is this: If the devil is anything, he's clever. There is not a single clever thing about Bush Jr., not one. So in that regard he's not devilish. Now Cheney, on the other hand...

Second, while Chavez's black humor was entertaining (if a bit histrionic), the corporate media frenzy over "El Diablo" was a smokescreen. The real meat of Chavez's speech was a detailed reference to Luis Posada, an anti-Castro, Cuban ex-pat. Posada is a confirmed terrorist in any sane and consistent sense of that term, responsible for blowing up an airplane (sound familiar?) and killing many innocent people. It just so happens that Posada has enjoyed safe harbor in the United States and the protection of the U.S. government. Not a word about this in the mainstream press or from any politician, "conservative" or otherwise.

But hey, "El Diablo" really plays in Peoria, I hear...

Holy Mackerel?
Posted by: eddie torres on Sep 24, 2006 12:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
419 Comments? If the devil inspires this much interest, why don't the Dems just rename themselves "The Devil's Party"? They'd get a hell (sic) of a lot more turnout at the polls.

Worrysome that the western hemisphere's two most interesting leaders are all wrapped up in the heaven / hell thing. Shouldn't their supporters demand more - like competence in policy execution, for example?

Good job Cohen.

Two years in the future...
Posted by: longlivecheney on Sep 24, 2006 12:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America needs a counterpunch to conservatism in this country. Competing ideas are a good thing, and Lord knows Republicans aren't always right. I wonder how long this hybrid of liberal thought can sustain itself. I really wonder whats going to happen to the Democratic party in a handful of years once George is gone.

Its inheritantly dangerous for Democrats to put all their eggs in their Bush-bashing basket. He's gone in two years, and if the Republican party brings a credible candidate to the table, Democrats will not be able to defeat him. They have relied on the country to hate this president, but this is their last chance to make a referendum on him. I sincerely feel thats a bad thing for this country. We need another point of view to have credibility. But I really don't believe this form of liberalism can be that point of view.

Any thoughts?

» RE: Two years in the future... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Two years in the future... Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: The sad truth about the Democrats Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: The sad truth about the Democrats Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Two years in the future... Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Two years in the future... Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Two years in the future... Posted by: HeroesAll
Chavez comment regarding...
Posted by: ignition on Sep 24, 2006 1:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...Bush needing a SHRINK was much more interesting than his Diablo comment. Don't you think?

Aja
Posted by: AJA on Sep 24, 2006 3:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"What's Wrong With Calling Bush A Devil?"
I believe Chavez called Bush The Devil ("El Diablo"). I believe the comparison is unfair. I call upon President Chavez to issue an apology to The Devil.

» RE: Aja Posted by: ng1944
"Conservatives" go home and hide under your rocks
Posted by: harinama on Sep 24, 2006 4:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, you stupid trolling "conservatives" your time is limited. If you are supporting these corporatist fascists, that means you also are just gdamn brownshirts. Your viewpoint is completely invalid and ignorant.

Leave the real discussions to liberals, THE ONLY REAL AMERICANS, who actually give a shit about this country and the world at large. There was a time when conservatives actually had a valid viewpoint, but that ended in about the 1950's, when conservative values went out the window and corporatism took it's place.

You are a bunch of selfish good for nothing pieces of shit. Your ethnocentric and nationalistic ideas are passe' and real AMERICANS are waking up in your pile of doo and are sick from the STINK.

Do yourselves and America a favor, shut the fuck up.

I will now ONLY buy gas from CITGO, the only gasoline company i know of that actually cares about people(as evidenced by their willingness to provide heating oil to AMERICAN citizens recently). Anyone else want to join me in boycotting the corporatist fascist extremists?

Boycot
Posted by: rwa on Sep 24, 2006 5:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's boycot the economy. Send your IRA or 401k overseas by investing in non-dollar assets. Check into BEGBX or PSAFX. Send your kids to college overseas where they still enjoy academic freedom. Obtain medical and dental care abroad. Vacation abroad.

Chavez and Non-Aligned Nations Deserve Respect of US
Posted by: keenekarl on Sep 24, 2006 9:10 PM   
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We need to stop treating Chavez and smaller nations with disrespect. They have some very credible concerns.

They believe, because of our actions in Iraq, that we are also a threat to their sovereignty and security. They believe that they have every right to join together to try to stop us

There is very little faith in the UN or World Court to do the job.

I think that if you study the Chavez speech, you will see that he makes the case that the UN is weak and needs to be replaced.

It is not implausible to think that it will be groups like the Non-Aligned Nations, led by Chavez, who will finally take actions of their own to reign in US imperialism.

No one's interests are served by ignoring the concerns of Chavez, Iran and the other 100+ Non-Aligned nations.

Individually they may seem like insignificant little pests, but unified they could really do some things to humble this nation.

What's Wrong With Calling Bush A Devil?
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Sep 24, 2006 10:22 PM   
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Because he said it in Spanish?
(an eeeeevil language used by foreignors, dontcha know...)

Another way of looking at it…
Posted by: Arvy on Sep 25, 2006 3:29 AM   
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"Think of it. Tiny Venezuela has a population of about 27 million people that's 1/12th the size of the US. And it had a 2005 Gross Domestic Product of about $160 billion that's less than 2% of the US GDP of $12.5 trillion last year and less than half of oil giant Exxon-Mobil's $371 billion 2005 sales volume. Still Hugo Chavez is willing to share his nation's oil and financial resources so those in need in the US can get some of the help its own government won't provide and help other nations as well that don't have enough ability to do it themselves. Don't ever expect Exxon-Mobil to offer aid as its game plan is to manipulate oil prices for maximum sales and profit growth with little or no regard for social responsibility that would only lower them."

Quote from article by Stephen Lendman found on http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm

Basilobo
Posted by: richardini on Sep 25, 2006 4:19 AM   
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I am not a fan of Chavez, having lived in Venezuela in the 50's under a dictator. He is a repeat of the story. They say in Spanish that he is the same dog with a new collar. I have followed his career from the beginning and he has dreams of saving the world and being its new head. He is jealous of Bush's power and is seeking the same for himself, gathering around him the sore heads of the world. I do not like Bush at all and I think he and his government represent the worst instincts of our people. He is the dark side of the American people but we also have our light side, one which is fair and strives to right the wrongs of the past. I fault Chavez for behaving like the egotistical idiot who has bamboozled the poor Venezuelan people for years. He has changed the constitution and even the name of the country. He fancies himself another Simon Bolivar. He can't hold a candle to Bolivar. I was not so offended by his or the Iranian president's speech because there was so much truth in both of them. However, the Iranian president, although not dressed according to accepted protocol behaved more like a president than Chavez. Chavez behaved like a buffoon.

NOT FAIR to hold Chavez and Venezuela to a Different Standard
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 25, 2006 5:15 AM   
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I would be the first to agree that Chavez does use some rhetoric, hyperbole and ocasionally some exaggeration in his speeches. But why can't he do this, and people like Bush can do it all the time and it is no big deal? Bush can prattle his war on terror, torture, and axis of evil nonsense, and nobody seems to blink an eye. First of all, I do support Chavez and believe he is helping the Venezuelan people. Secondly, Chavez needs to rally the people, and his behavior is necessary to draw attention domestically to issues and problems and get the peoples support - politicians do this all the time. Lastly, it seems that as Chavez is not from a "world power" he is expected to basically act like a "suck uip" to countries like the USA. Hence the double standard. Now what is he suppose to do, say how grateful he is to the USA for all it has tried to do for Venezuela (yea right)? Or beg the USA for IMF loans that everybody knows virtually destroyed the economies of countries like Argentia. Or humbly ask the USA for US Army troops like US puppets such as Columbia have done. I mean, you have to be realistic. Chavez is doing what needs to be done and how it needs to be done.

It is time to tell the truth
Posted by: ng1944 on Sep 25, 2006 5:59 AM   
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After spitting in everybody face, dragging this
country to war, murders and tortures,
democrats still playing it polite.
It is long overdue to expose this ANTICHRIST.

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