Rachel Maddow's Devastating Showdown with Tom Ridge: Comeuppance for Failures on Katrina, Terror Threats and Iraq

[T]he man at the center of this biggest transformation of the federal government in modern history, the biggest change in what we pay federal tax dollars for since we got a unified Defense Department in 1947, is our next guest. His name is Tom Ridge.

He has a new book out called, The Test of Our Times. It's a very human book. It reads as sort of one man's adventures in nationally consequential politics. The buzz about the book, thus far, has focused on one passage that's buried way down to start on Page 236.

Just before the '04 election, another Osama bin Laden video was released. Secretary Ridge says he didn't believe that a threatening tape alone was ever justification for raising America's formal threat level. It's just not that simple.

But at the end of October -- October 29th -- just before the election, he says, quote, "A vigorous, some might say dramatic, discussion ensued. Then-Attorney General John Ashcroft strongly urged an increase in the threat level and was supported by then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld."

Ridge says, quote, "There was absolutely no support for that position within our department. None. I and wondered, 'Is this about security or politics?' Post-election analysis demonstrated a significant increase in the president's approval rating in the days after the raising of the threat level."

Now, although this hasn't been as widely quoted as that passage you just heard, Secretary Ridge then continues, and I think this is important, he says, quote, "As the minutes passed at our video conference, we concluded that others in the administration were operating with the same threat information that we had at DHS, and they didn't know any more than we did. And we concluded that the idea was still a bad one. It also seemed possible to me and to others around the table that something could be afoot other than simple concern about the country's safety."

Joining us now is former Pennsylvania governor, former homeland security secretary, a Vietnam veteran awarded the Bronze Star for valor as an infantry staff sergeant, Mr. Tom Ridge, who's also the author of "The Test of Our Times: America Under Siege and How We Can Be Safe Again."

Mr. Secretary, thanks for coming in. Congratulations on the book.

Ridge: Well, Rachel, thank you very much for the invitation. And I had a hunch that you might begin our conversation with that passage.

Maddow: Well, that's where all of the hullabaloo is.

Ridge: Well, it is.

Maddow: I want to give you a chance to talk about it, because I think it's important to know that the politicization of security is not just this passage. It's an ongoing theme in the book. You have got two chapters that are titled that way.

Ridge: Right.

Maddow: And you argue that the perception that decisions on national safety would be made not for actual national safety reasons but for political reasons, you argue that that perception is pernicious, it impedes what we need to do to keep the country safe. Why do you think it's so dangerous?

Ridge: Well, that's not quite the argument that I put in here.

Maddow: OK.

Ridge: Earlier in the book before this passage is referred to -- first of all, I thank you for raising it. It's a very important question. I wrote the book to shed some light on the challenges we faced setting up the department, the successes, the missteps and the way ahead. That passage has generated a lot of heat, so I would like to generate a little light on it.

Maddow: OK.

Ridge: Further in the book, I remind everybody that the system we designed to raise the threat level could not be manipulated, could not be orchestrated, directed or pressured by any single individual. Regardless of what anybody says, the system was designed by the president to include the homeland security cabinet group sitting around from time to time when the intelligence warranted that group discussion. If you had a YouTube video of it, you would see the secretary of defense, the attorney general, the secretary of state and others, having a conversation as to whether the intelligence generates enough concern that we want to raise the threat level.