3 Good Reasons (and 1 Bad One) Why I Don't Buy Into Your Conspiracy Theories

Sorry, but it doesn't ring true.

You are still picking and choosing stories for which there are ways easy to cast doubt. Fine. But at least acknowledge there are aspects to these theories that you cannot address.

Conspiracy is history. When you start by assuming that everyone is inherently good, you ignore human nature.

When you start with the assumption that power, wealth, and greed don't corrupt, you ignore human nature.

Yours is as much a story or myth about America as is ours. The difference is that your myth requires faith...ours requires skepticism.

And I'll trust those who question the given myths, rather than those that perpetuate them.

Knowledge is power. Why would they ever give it away for free?

obi

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I guess in that case it worked!

Point is conspiracies happen all the time, the vast majority are not earth shaking ...

Did Baucus conspire to keep any single payer advocates off his witness list ? Sure seems so.

Some conspiracies can be proven, some can't. But I'd be willing to say that there are more conspiracies than people will ever know about because they are successful ...

I guess I'm a conspiracy theorist cause I think Baucus deliberately kept single payer advocates off his panel list in order to curry favor with health care companies ... because I can't prove it ...

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One of my biggest problems with conspiracy theories is that they often seem to need you to believe 2 very contradictory points at the same time.

For example, most of the 911 nuts demand that we acknowledge the existence of some secret branch of the US government created by Bushco and its puppet masters that have been able to orchestrate this near "miraculous" plot, cover their tracks nearly flawlessly all in the name of achieving some "special" goal. Whilst at the same time we are being made constantly aware of how these same people where chronically incompetent at their day job... which just so happens to be pretty much the same thing.

If you look at the various New World Order beliefs they all tend to go on about these masterful bankers / corporate bosses who secretly plot and connive to pull the strings of various world leaders... Yet its blatantly obvious these evil geniuses are nothing but short sighted, greedy incompetents who couldn't be trusted to run the cake stand at the village fair.

I get these are very different view points and their are many who think these people I describe as idiots are actually the right people for the job (after all someone had to vote bush into office twice), my problem is that conspiracy nuts tend to think both that the "powers that be" are evil geniuses and complete incompetents at the same time.... Why would Bush need these amazing secret plans.... when if he had been competent at his job in the 1st place he would have had far more power than he gave himself with his secret plans.

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First, I do believe there was a small conspiracy to let the " New Pearl Harbor" happen by not actively using the information available, to stop it.
As for many other cabalistic conspiracy theories. I think many people mistake multiple entities doing the same thing that leads to success, as conspiracy. There are poor, better and best methods of doing things. The successful entities concentrate on the best methods. From a distance this often looks like conspiracy.
Of course there is the conspiracy of price fixing by related groups, but this is a poor method as it is often too easy to spot and prosecute.
It does seem there is a mass of conspiracies that weigh upon us. But most of them are just a reflection of how people or systems can be manipulated or marketed to in a limited number of successful ways.
The real conspiracies are usually openly published, promoted etc by governments. They collude, coerce and often intimidate and murder quite openly. They are called treaties and agreements, foreign policy etc.
Business conspiracies are usually conducted by lobbyists and PR firms, on capital hill and the media.
Conspiracy fanatics too often cannot see the forest for the imaginary trees.

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"But asking those questions puts one at risk of being lumped in with a fringe movement, and the result is that we're less likely to get at the truth about what happened that day because of the 9/11 Truth movement, not despite its tireless efforts."

I'm so glad that Alternet has finally realized the error of its ways. There is no "conspiracy" to enrich America's 100 wealthiest families at the expense of everyone else! We WANT them to own everything! There's no "conspiracy" to elect a pro-business neo-con President to scuttle national health care and to privatize social security! There's no "conspiracy" to cover up past, present, and/or future American torture!

I'm glad Alternet realizes that the American right ultimately has our best interests in mind. Tim Kaine going on TV to say we've "turned the page" on torture is GOOD! After all, asking those questions puts one at risk of being lumped in with a fringe movement! America doesn't torture! And even if it does, IT DOESN'T! To suggest otherwise is conspiracy thinking of the highest order.

The idea that Bernie Madoff could have simply have been running a pyramid scheme is LUDICROUS! It's a good thing nobody listened to all the whistleblowers who said otherwise!

One man's crazy conspiracy is another man's Marx, Chomsky, Zinn, Holland. Please stop the rantings of those on the left who disagree with the status quo. Socialism IS a fringe movement after all. Democracy is a fringe movement. LEt's stop engaging the insane and stick to center-right sanity. Hail Obama! Hail Kaine!

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No mention of WTC 7 or the Anthrax Attacks ?
Instead you mention chinese lasers and holograms ?



The professional debunkers use four primary tactics to accomplish their propaganda feats:

1) They refuse to mention, much less attempt to disprove, the most irrefutable and damaging evidence.

2) They take great delight in debunking only those conspiracy theories that are the weakest or that are planted by other government sympathizers to help discredit the more credible conspiracy facts. This is what is referred to as a "straw man" argument, where a weak or false argument is set up so that it can easily be knocked down.

3) They only select "experts" who agree with the official conclusion.

4) They snicker at or mock anyone who believes that government engages in criminal behavior or covers up crimes in collusion with judges, investigators, prosecutors, media heads, and hand-picked commissions. Worse, they label dissenters as unpatriotic or mentally imbalanced.

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It is too bad that you use caricature to repersent "truthers". Using caricature always makes things look ridiculous, and anything, any idea can be caricatured.

But then you are outside the real debate.

I was deceived to see your article misses the point. I'll try to make it here:

Truthers, smart and thoughtful truthers do not say "THIS is what actually happened". They do not talk about lasers and Jewry. They point to incoherences in themainstream explanation of, say, 9/11.

I would have liked AlterNet (which I deeply respect) to adress this truther critique, not its caricature.

Best greetings from Switzerland,
Philippe

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With all due respect I beg to differ. Granted you've made some fine points...Chinese lasers did not bring the towers down. Many points you made however can be applied to the "Official Conspiracy Theory" proffered for mass consumption by the Government.

The 911 case should not be conflated with conspiracy theories in general. It is too important an event in world history. We must know the truth about the event for our country to move forward. This event has caused a tear in the fabric of our society so profound that without a full thorough investigation, millions of Americans will remain alienated from their leaders. The investigation was simply not handled in an appropriate fashion.

For you to conflate "conspiracy theory" in all of their sweeping vagaries with the events of that day, represents for me, a disservice both to the journalism profession and to the American people who deserve a proper investigation and explanation.

The Government's lack of due diligence in this regard has inspired and sustains a pathos and environment of suspicion that breeds doubt and all forms of conspiracy theories that you so wontonly seek to dismiss as "paranoic."

The smoking gun IS WTC7's demolition-like collapse. This is enough for there to be a resumption of the investigation alone. Fire and the amount of structural damage could not have brought the building down in the fashion that it fell. There IS more to the story. And we all need to pressure our leaders to reopen the investigation immediately....

Chance

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That's the question ... There is no doubt that 911 was a conspiracy. People conspired to bring down the WTC and they carried it out. But the how, who, and why have not been clearly answered wether you want to believe they have or not.

You seem to have narrowed your focus simply to make your argument ... that may put an article on paper but it's pretty much meaningless beyond that. Going tit for tat on each and every issue is a waste of time and quite frankly a good way to ignore the reality and keep the discussion in the "conspiracy theories" column. You either get that something is very wrong with the official version or you don't.

It's also revealing to me that while you claim to be a critical thinker you focus on an individual fact or two in order to make a supposedly larger argument. One piece of a puzzle can not be used wisely as a blanket conclusion, especially while ignoring the pursuit of the larger picture.

In other words ... it's not about the melting steel or the time stamp alone. Nor is it about the people who are trying to understand the truth as they deal with these difficulties. It's about the bigger picture which is very hard to piece together especially when we are kept specifically from seeing it. Either be part of the discovery of the truth or be forthcoming with what you believe but enough with the blame and judgment of others ... you don't have the answers either. Find some humility.

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It is a well known fact, joshua, that both secrecy and conspiracy, are standard fare in our history and world. I don't understand how you can ignore conspiracy theory. "Conspiracy theory" is really just factual information that has yet to be availible for public scrutiny. The US, as well as virtually all countries in the world, engage in cloak and dagger activities that are planned, activated, and forgotten as a routine matter.

I guess that just because governments act in secrecy to infiltrate, operated, undermine, or otherwise destroy other countries, for you does not count as conspiracy. Think about all the activities that have gone on between the US and countries like El Savador, Chile, Iran just to name a few.

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Conspiracy theory is much easier than conspiracy practice.

The big reason for believing it is the comforting notion that someone understands society and its changes well enough for fine-tuned control. Even if that's the Bad Guys, even if it's people who can't keep their own sex lives secret, it's more mind-friendly than the Chaos Butterfly.

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is not a conspiracy, its magic, science beyond science
let ignorance lead all to ecstasy!

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How long would it take to place enough explosives in the two World Trade Center buildings to ensure their collapse? How much explosive might be needed? How many demolitions experts?
AND WHY HASN'T ONE OF THEM COME FORWARD?

Conspiracy theorists LIKE the ides that this horrendous vale of tears we call life is organized and purposeful and the result of someone, anyone, being IN CONTROL. They cannot tolerate the randomness of events, the unbearable lightness of being.
A conspiracy is a comfort because there is someone to blame and a purpose for their suffering. Order, even if evil, is better than chaos.

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Same old same old. He might as well have been trying to tell us that there are no cabals trying to deny this country universal health care, or no cabal of bankers which, after already having stolen trillions, is extorting trillions more of taxpayer dollars by playing the 'panic' card, and threatening our whole economic system. "We dropped the ball. Pay us more or we'll REALLY drop the damned ball." Better yet, he may as well try to convince us that the Democratic party really is the liberal peoples' party.

The fact is that due diligence was not done concerning 911. The so-called 'investigation' never even looked for evidence of demolitions (as would have been done in ANY other suspicious fire/collapse) because they began with an assumption that there were none. Why? Because they were told 19 Arab hijackers working for OBL did it, and cooked the books to fit that assumption. I'm still waiting for video evidence of a jet hitting the Pentagon, but I won't hold my breath. Then there is that 'white paper' we were promised which would have provided alleged airtight evidence against OBL and his band of 19 hijackers.

Anyone who actually proposes a theory or assertion is responsible for proving them. Most reasonable people who doubt the official story of 911 aren't proposing any theories. They are demanding proof of the assertions already made by this government which has justified two wars, one of which is already long proven to be based upon conspiracy and lies. A simple look at the vast deceptions put forth by the last administration should put every one of their claims under close public scrutiny. Every word out of their mouths for eight years were lies except those concerning 911? Right :)

No proof for their assertions is forthcoming and the NIST and 911 report hold no water. There is no intent to honestly investigate the evidence that has been dug up by people who would surely rather be doing other things with their lives (with some exceptions). I have not seen any of it dealt with in a rational forum, without ad hominem tactics. All I've seen is name calling and ridicule from people trained to know better. Call Steven Jones all the names you like, and even attack the magazines that dare to publish his findings, but the fact is his evidence has never yet been properly dealt with. If that magic passport wasn't found within one day of those collapses I might have bought it, but I doubt anyone could have found such a piece of evidence within such a short time span. I doubt it utterly, and I watched carefully afterward. Nothing added up. I propose no theory. I simply demand that my government defend their assertions and quit trying to feed me what I know is horseshit.

And Mr. Holland, I don't say you're in on some kind of conspiracy, but I would bet you know which side of the bread your butter is on. You have no cojones to give someone like Mr. Jones a fair hearing. We don't have to defend our theories if we don't have one. This government has a conspiracy theory and defends it by ignoring the evidence that doesn't jibe with it, and by viciously attacking the characters and careers of those that dare question it. Ask yourself how much ass covering went on after 911. How many heads rolled for criminal negligence, which is the very best case scenario for the events of that day. Then we watch the Bill of Rights go bye-bye, and are told we need to be thinking 'worst case scenario' because 'people hate us for our freedoms'. I hate to tell you, but the worst case scenario is that criminals are in control of our government, our financial systems, our military, and our spy agencies. One look at the history of the last two and I shouldn't have to justify myself with one more word.

And I won't.

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It reads like nothing more than an unreasoned put-down.

It uses language and tactics such as generalisation, obfuscation, name-calling and avoiding the point; just what you accuse those that you label as 'conspiracists' of doing.

This article does nothing to credibly address the regular calls for Alternet to investigate the very serious flaws in the official story.

Most of those requests are not asking for support for some weird theory. They are asking for investigative jounalists such as yourself to investigate.

Why for instance, when a 757 hits what must surely be the most monitored and secure building in the world, the Pentagon, is there not one photograph or video that actually shows a 757? (Not that I have seen, anyway).

Your article simply name-calls and classifies anyone who asks such questions as 'conspiracists', dispatching them en masse as a bunch of annoying nuts to be ignored until they go way or hook into the next big thing.

Do you really care what we Alternet readers think, Joshua?

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It is a fact that more than 620 architects and engineers, nationwide, some of them from MIT and other highly regarded institutions, have seriously questioned the official story and continue to do so. How about the footage of the NYFD firemen, who worked all day at Ground Zero, the First Responders; we see them back at the station, standing around in their shirtsleeves, talking casually amongst themselves, as they sip their coffee, about how there was something about the way the buildings came down as if it were planned. And it just didn't jibe with those guys--- with the official story.

Then there's the report published a few weeks ago which reaffirmed and underlined the presence of thermite, scooped up from the dust at Ground Zero, before the cleaners had a chance to remove it, as they did every other piece of evidence.

Come on, already, these are all genuine smoking guns! Then there is the whole deal about WTC7, and Larry Silverstein's uncanny foreknowledge and his use of technical terms he had no way of knowing. And then there is the footage of George W Bush holding hands with Osama bin Laden prior to 9/11, and the fact that the entire bin Laden family was escorted out of this country a day later, by the CIA. Also, the footage of George Bush, where he describes the first plane's attack which he could not have seen as it was not shown until the next day.

In my book, the real conspiracy is this: how come the media is so quick to call conspiracy theorists 'crackpots'? Why so eager to swallow whole a lame story given out by an administration which is famous for lies; and torture; and crimes against humanity? Yeah, I think I'll believe Dubbya and Dick rather than my own eyes and ears.

BTW, Most people think I am relatively sane.

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Joshua,
Big fan of Alternet and some of your work but i disagree with your latest article.
To cherrypick the weakest elements of the 911 Truth movement is suspect.
To believe BushCo vis a vis 911 one has to be a coincidence theorist.
A coincidence that Dick Cheney and Norad were running Vigilant Guardian war game exercises ? Hijack drills which provided the perfect smokescreen for "Bin Laden" on 911.
A coincidence that the only 3 skyscrapers to collapse from fire were owned by the same man and fell on the same day.
A coincidence that Donald Rumsfeld announces a missing 2.3 Trillion from the Pentagon on Sept 10 ? A coincidence that the plane/missile hits the under renovation wing ?
A coincidence the same security company managed the airports where the flights left off ? A coincidence that the President's cousin used to sit on the Board ?
Although Bush is nothing more than a puppet,his stonewalling the investigation for 2 years and refusing to testify under oath or without Dick Cheney is extremely suspect.
Cheney was in the White House PEOC bunker that morning and gave a stand down order in front of Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta. This is more evidence of Cheney running an OP. The NORAD stand down and all the war games helped OBL/KSM/Patsy's hit their targets.
Al Qaeda is a creation of the CIA.
Do you not remember the Al Qaeda warnings always seemed to appear when Bush's ratings hit a new low ? Another coincidence ? Always resulting in a boost for BushCo.
Orange Alert ! Orange Alert !
Ridiculous fear mongering by the real terrorists.
Mr Holland, how come you never mentioned the anthrax attacks being an inside job ? It's fact. Anthrax was sent to Sen. Leahy and Sen. Daschle who opposed the Patriot Act.
Anthrax was also sent to the press.
More terror and not from Al Qaeda. Fact.
Why do people believe the story they've been fed about 911 from the same people that lied them into the Iraq disaster ?
Building 7 is the achilles heel of the Bush fable. The Enron investigation died in WTC 7. Another coincidence ? There is a very serious problem with the collapse of WTC 7. The 47 story skyscraper(The Third Building) that collapsed that Bush Believer's avoid talking about.
It's an obvious controlled demolition. Richard Gage and many others have proved this. Even NIST took 7 years to come up with an explanation and could only invent a new phenomena (Thermal Expansion) This is pathetic. If thermal expansion was the culprit every high rise on the planet would be condemned and abandoned.
Thomas Keane the Co-Chair of the Commission is on the record saying the 911 Commission was set up to fail and underfunded. This is all we need to demand a new and REAL investigation. I know some of you reading this won't believe me so listen to the words from the Lead 911 Commissioner himself.
9/11 Truth: The 9/11 Commission Was Set Up To Fail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzrv-e37Es8
Thomas Kean *9/11 commission stonewalled by the C.I.A.*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFZ3R4o19J0

The patsy's couldn't fly cessnas and snorted coke at strip bars. Not exactly allah fearing behavior. Their passports miraculously surviving a 500 mile per hour impact and fireball and floating down safely into the hands of the "authorities". Ridiculous.
Like many of the victims family members, i wanna see a real investigation.
Let's start off with Cheney and Bush testifying separately and under oath this time.

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i think it is doe to the seriousness
of the event(s), that you so lightly refer to,
that people react (intelligently) filling in the blanks and solving the inconsistencies,
using the whatever means one might have available.
making FUN and BELITTLING this effort makes you, indeed, one of the accomplices.
the most obvious and simple example of historic fraud is the concept of FALSE FLAG,
as so simplistically you describe it,
The Pearl Harbour Crime Affair did and does
have many more implications and ramifications that you are willing, apparently, to allow to it.
anyone can use this, among many other concepts (whit seriousness and respect) as historic references to orientate their own points of view.
you are not helping by blowing off the so few candles that illuminates so weakly this most despicable darkness.
if for you they seem to throw a light that is too dim and projects too many shadows,
i suggest you increase the light! turn on the 200 Watts lamp and you'll see the flickering and shadows fall away
in all your piece there is no one little morsel of data that one can say there, that proves it (or not)
you play the same game as everyone else. its your (respectable) opinion. period.
in times of need you are not helping by taking away (the dignity, the seriousness, the honesty, etc) of the effort to reach the truth.

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These are some of the financial supporters of Alternet.
Many, or all, of these, if you look far enough, link to huge international power centers with people at the helm of industry and corporations and special interests like banking and the Israel lobby. Think KISSINGER! His tentacles go through virtually all international corporate and financial interests, as well as interest in Israel.

Alternet isn't going to piss off these people.

And so, when there is absolute proof that our whole war on terror, the basis for a strategy of gaining access to markets and resources and Israeli agenda, is based on a fraudulent 9/11, it ain't gonna see the light of day!

Akonadi Foundation
Albert A. List Foundation
Arca Foundation
Bioneers Foundation
Ford Foundation
French American Charitable Trust
Glaser Progress Foundation
Jessie Smith Noyes Foundation
Marguerite Casey Foundation
McKay Foundation
Nathan Cummings Foundation
New World Fund
Open Society Institute
Richard and Rhoda Goldman Fund
Schumann Center for Media and Democracy
Silicon Valley Community Foundation
Solidago Foundation
Surdna Foundation
The Tides Foundation (various funds)
Universalist Unitarian Veatch Program at Shelter Rock
Wallace Global Fund
Women's Foundation
Working Assets Grantmaking Fund of the Tides Foundation

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why don't debunkers ever fully address the technology of controlled demolition? of the top chunks of the Towers falling INTO THE PATH OF MOST RESISTANCE? the steel 20 floors below impact couldn't have heated up sufficiently to even bend, yet the top chunks went through them TRAVELING AS IF THROUGH THIN AIR! the steel 40 floors below was even colder. yet the buildings came down in what? 10 seconds?

as one who at first totally dismissed 9/11 as a "wild conspiracy theory", let me say that once i became willing to examine the MEREST POSSIBILITY that MAYBE the newscasters that day who said "it looks like controlled demolition films we've seen" had a clue, more pieces fell into place. today i watch the clips and i'm dumbfounded how i could have thought it was anything BUT controlled demolition!

Did Larry Silverstein (who had bought the WTC complex in July '01, insured all the bldgs for a few million and collected a few billion for the disaster) not admit he and the fire chief decided to "pull it" (WTC7)? millions have saved THAT video.

i lived in Brooklyn while the towers were being built. one of my friends worked construction in the WTC high steel and other bldgs. ALL BUILDINGS CONSTRUCTED FROM THE 60s ON WERE WIRED FOR DEMOLITION. got that? good.

explosive charges were only brought in and installed into the wiring already there, once demolition was scheduled. WTC7 had 47 stories. to bring in and set the charges would have taken a crew of trained demolition workers at least a week, more or less, depending on how many men in the crew. but within 8 hours? no way jose.

hence, that controlled demo had to be planned at the very least, with a 50-man crew (if there even were 50 trained demo guys), DAYS IN ADVANCE! the extreme risk of carrying explosives into a building with a few floors already on fire? nah. this was planned days in advance.

now who was behind it? i frankly don't give a flying crap in hell. but planned it was and billions of dollars were made. bushCo had their new pearl harbor, ultimately yielding trillions of dollars made. "follow the money."

there were videos of police and firemen blocking people from getting close to bldg 7, saying "that building is coming down." they had been told that and instructed to keep people away.

the TV series RESCUE ME is elucidating one NY fireman's tribulations being a truther. surviving firemen who heard explosions IN THE BASEMENT FLOORS as well as above, are still around, most sick from inhaling the unimaginable toxicity that day.

to paraphrase William Paley (1743-1805), not herbert spencer, as some may believe, “There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is contempt prior to examination.”

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Mr. Holland, would you please confirm or deny whether PFGetty's list of benefactors donate to Alternet? I think that confirming or denying his claim is of significance to Alternet's readers.

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Ah - anyone who disbelieves the conspiracy theory/practice is one that has no credibility - as it has been commented - life is a conspiracy at all levels and government/politics is in the for-run of this practice - what history teaches us is that it is repeated even if we as humans prefer to ignore it.

Perhaps you have been bought out and the soft-touch debunk is on its way through an infiltrated Alternet which has been crying hard-up for spondooliks to maintain its ability to provide "alter-net". So whats new?

Most everyone above has so far spoken the real argument - except for one plonker and their "lightness of being" - there is an explanation for 911 and its very riveting when one sees beyond the wood for the trees.

Your article was flawed from the beginning and Alternet took the some of that shit when it hit the fan. You just lost cred!

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One strong indicator that the Truth Movement is bogus is the fact that no two Truthers agree on the theory.

The Truthers disagree on what happened, who did it, how it was done, and what the evidence is for their multfarious scenarios. They post huge lists of smoking guns...but every list is different.

The Truthers don't even agree that 9/11 was an inside job. There's LIHOP (let it happen on purpose).

If you asked 1000 Truthers what the theory on 9/11 is, you will get at least 1000 different answers. This is because each Truther has his or her own theory, based on "evidence" that he or she selected. Truthers fight with one another constantly over these conflicting theories and call one another government agents.

Any Truthers will be quick to tell you how all the other Truthers are completely out to lunch. It's really very funny.

PS: To add to the hilarity, every single claim made by the Truthers has been throughly and repeatedly debunked. A quick look around the web will confirm this. The Truthers respond to this difficulty by ignoring it.

My favorite 9/11 debunking sites:
http://www.911myths.com/
http://www.debunking911.com/
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home

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You are a brave man. Well I suppose lots of online attacks by 'truthers', as you called conspiracy theory crazies, is not so difficult.

It is a good article.

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All successful political "conspiracies," like the American Revolution for example, et al, in the end are most commonly referred to as "the government of..."

Most of the unsuccessful ones, or truly unsolved ones like the Kennedy assassination, and the 9/11 crimes, et al, are referred to as "conspiracy theories" derogatorily.

Skepticism is necessary from both sides, but only a truly independent, and transparent, detailed investigation can answer the unanswered questions, but the problem in America with that is the fact that "investigations" are rarely truly open, transparent, and protected from political agendas.  (e.g. the Warren Commission and/or the 9/11 Commission Report.)

With the crimes of 9/11...nbsp; There is way too much smoke for there to be no fire, so to speak.  It practically screams for much more respect, investigation-wise, than it was given by the official report.  I purchased, and read, the book of the report, and found it lacking, and like the Warren Commission, it leaves more questions than answers.  Plus, unlike most of the "conspiracy theorists" of the UFO, international Jewry, the Illuminati, bankers, the New World Order, the Bilderbergers, etc., sort, many of the questioners of the 9/11 crimes are respected scientists, not nuts.

Do I personally believe 9/11 was an inside job?  No.  Not from the start.  But I do believe that once it was realized it was happening, whether before 9/11/01, or during, or after... that there developed opportunistic political "conspiracy" by members of the Bush Administration, and its corporate and/or ideological sycophants.  That I firmly believe, considering the other "conspiracies" that come to light recently concerning their lying to start the war in Iraq, their political firings of Attorney Generals, their use of, and defense of, torture for nothing more than political agendas that had absolutely nothing to do with our security nor protection of our freedoms, just to name a few of their "proven" political conspiracies...  So believing that they opportunistically took advantage of the crimes of 9/11 for political gain is in no way a very long stretch for even the most skeptical American.

My website and blog have frivolous names, "The Old Hippie's Groovy..." but they both actually have very serious content, admittedly mostly from the progressive, liberal, left side of the political spectrum, if you wish an excellent reality-based source you might consider visiting both.  The Website, and the blog.
 

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i am not a conspiracy theorist because i don’t draw conclusions on 9/11 since i am not a structural engineer or any other type of highly trained technical expert (amazing how those who even imply 9/11 truthers as looneys when they themselves know little about the technical side themselves except what they’ve read).

but i believe the evidence Joshua Holland talks about for or against is still inconclusive and i leave it at that.

forget the political or human nature side of the issue, the wtc 7 collapse is still not adequately explained; essentially, the experts just say “it happened because” and expect you to trust them when other genuine experts contradict them. i am not taking the establishment’s word for it, since trust as well as the competency of those in our in our government, and monkeys who speak for the government, are still in question.

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Mr. Hollander doesn't like CT's.
So what?
Is his thinking different than the ones stated day after day by government/NSA/CIA/Treasury officials?
Conspiracy theories are the backbone of world history. Some examples:

- How was the Fed created?
- Who financed Lenin, Trostsky and Stalin?
- Who financed Hitler?
- Who supplied WMD to Saddamm?
- Why is oppium one of CIA's cash-cow?

Regarding 911 watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_tf25lx_3o&hl=pt-PT

Mr. Holland will deny its accuracy. Amen.

E pur si muove... (Galileo)

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Holland wrote an article a little while ago that got me riled up because I felt it was intended to needlessly bait. I got pissed, I said a bad word. I decided to stop commenting for a while. Not that I was really all into the truth movement, I just felt, why go after these people?

Which brings me to this article: Holland's exactly right. I'm done with this "movement" which is a fake movement. No I wasn't 'in' it, but I'm done defending this.

Recently I was reading a great article by Scahill here. I'm a fan of Scahill's. This dude takes on mercenaries.

In the article Scahill was asking how we can wear the white hats as a country in our 'war' with Afghanistan when we're killing more civilians than the Taliban. There was a heartbreaking pic of a kid burned and bandaged.

As a rule I don't go down to the comments anymore, and I broke that rule because I wanted to see if anyone had anymore stats ON CIVILIAN DEATHS IN AFGHANISTAN. Instead, the first response?

Some douche-bucket starts accusing Jeremy of being part of the problem because he's hiding facts about 9/11 or not reporting 9/11 or... I just remember seeing red.

So then the entire discussion - right under the picture of this tiny kid scarred beyond belief - goes on about 9/11. Because, you know, when some shit happens to Americans it takes precedence.

The logic goes "If people really knew what happened on 9/11 none of this would have happened." Yeah. Ok. And if Woody Woodpecker had gone to the police none of this would have happened either. If I hadn't answered that question wrong in grade school my whole life would have turned out differently. If...

Look: EVERYTHING ISN'T ABOUT 9/11. And what disgusts me the most is the constant attack ON THE VERY PEOPLE WHO WILL CHEER THE LOUDEST IF YOU LAZY TYPES GET OFF YOUR ASS AND DO SOMETHING.

We don't happen to believe that government corruption is going to magically go away if you find the remote control Bush used to fly Chinese Saucers into the Pentagon. But if you find that shit, we'll be the ones going "right on."

The sad miserable fact is you're attacking people who are really concerned with reality. You've attacked, in a cowardly way, those people who are trying to put an end to child murder by our country. The people who are trying to restore some semblance of democracy. Attack Bill Maher, attack Alternet, attack Jeremy Scahill, attack me, attack everybody. In the meantime here's what you DON'T DO:

You don't do a goddamn thing that would help. You want to have a real movement? Do what the rest of us do in real movements: go out in the cold and stand there holding a sign. Make the calls. Send the emails to the Reps. Get the petitions and go door to door. This is what I do trying to get civil rights to actually exist for LGBT. This is what I do trying to get marijuana decriminalized. This is what I do trying to get the release of the West Memphis 3.

I DON'T attack Jeremy Scahill, who's trying to do the same thing on a variety of other issues. I mean look I'd like to see the end to corporate television and corporate medicine. Somehow I can make the leap to reality though and see that Scahill and the burned baby in Afghanistan didn't do this to my country. IT ISN'T ALL ABOUT U.S. VICTIMS. I say that even having recently seen the heartbreaking memorial book for an old friend who was in the Towers that day.

I'm outright livid that every conversation in the universe, conversations about crimes being committed today, are all going to be railroaded, steered into this other totally irrelevant thing. You want attention and action, and you won't do a shred of real work.

You want to make yourselves a movement? DO WHAT THE REST OF US TO DO AND GET TO WORK.

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IT'S A LONG, TOUGH ROAD, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM GETTING SUPPORT. GO TO IT. WE'RE WAITING HERE PATIENTLY.

I'm starting to take seriously this idea that "Truthers" are in fact space aliens sent here to confuse the public so that in our outrage we don't feel the secret anal probes. And that they work for a conspiracy by the corporate elite to cover up any real discussion on anything that could ACTUALLY BE SOLVED, like, say, a possible end to child murder by this Administration. It's every reporter's fault and every outlet's fault? How about you just get to work. No one gets rich reporting - go out there and get that story! Newspapers are dead anyway - any one on the Internet is officially deputized to report their ass off. I'll send you a shiny star to pin to yourself. I'm betting your just too damn lazy. If you aren't, then I expect to see you all out in the heat, and the cold, really doing the work of a movement. Right now I see nothing. I see nonsense. I see, unthinkably, "Truthers" attacking people telling the truth about Afghanistan. Right under a picture of a disfigured, mangled baby. I'm out. I'm done with it.

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You can spot them a mile off. They have not only found God - but they are God. Like St Peter on the Road to Damascus.

The Revelation completely changes their lives and they join a Cult and go door to door trying to preach the Truth to the unconverted. They then hold public meetings and as their flock grows - they write "Conspiracy" Books - and even develop their own websites.

These people are to be avoided - they are not only mad - but they are dangerous. They are likely to convert you to their cause of conspiracy nonsense.

Joshua is very wise steering well clear of them.

Its much safer to continue with your own established Worldview which has been gradually built by your exposure to information from your parents, your education and the media.

To prove my point, I took on holiday a book by David Icke - just for fun you see.

There are numerous chapters, that portray the Worldview of such a typical nutter - who is convinced that shape shifting reptillians are in control of the World.

So we can ignore not only his crazy chapters (almost certainly written as a psychological defense mechanism ) but also the sensible chapters - as just conspiracy nonsense.
The fact that much of what he has written has actually come true - check our current economic and political state - can be ignored.

Such people are to be avoided at all cost. We must just concentrate on the writings of the Liberal elite who dismiss all this nonsense as it gets in the way of their own political agenda.

After all, Joshua has a living to be made from writing sense.

These aliens are getting everywhere.

Whilst AlienScientist produces an extremely good analysis 9/11 based on physics and maths, a quick look at his Alien Science Channel convinces me that he is yet another nutter.

Therefore everything he says must be complete nonsense (even the physics and maths) or so runs Joshua's logic.

Maybe I will be the first to see the light, and after becoming convinced that the official government conspiracy theory of 9/11 was blatant nonsense, I will regain my sanity and actually believe it is all true.

Thank You Joshua. The World now seems a lot nicer place - except for those evil Islamic People. It is our duty to take care of all their oil and control the size of their population with bombs.

Tony

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Holland's latest article amply explains why Alternet can be placed in the same category as the Warren and Tower Commissions as dissemblers and varnishers of truth.

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There are undeniably powerful individuals, but when they die, their power does not evaporate, it redistributes itself to other individuals in similar roles and to individuals that scramble to inherit the role just vacated.

Quite so. But this skips over the fact that powerful individuals usually have progeny (some sire dozens or even hundreds). And most of them fight against things like inheritance tax. All of them will have passed on privileges during their lifetimes in the form of top schooling, excellent health care, etc.

These individuals, whether they consciously realize it or not, are trying to grab the only kind of immortality we can be fairly sure of: the continuation of our DNA.

Examine the interlinked family trees of the crowned heads of Europe. Makes the Bush dynasty look somewhat feeble by comparison. How did a few bloodlines succeed so well?

By conspiring to increase their own wealth and power at any price.

(The "9/11" truth movement is very much a guy thing--all that science! It's so much about "how" that the "why" and the "who" tends to get lost.)

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Scientifically, a theory can only be based upon evidence. The evidence that the three buidings, at the WTC site, 'collapsed' due to fire is non existent. "Oh" but you say, "NIST and FEMA both published their 'carefully researched' findings and both agree that that is so. Well, no it isn't. They know that the majority of the populace would never have seen the construction (blueprints in the US) drawings of the two main towers, and therefore easily hoodwinked. I HAVE seen the drawings and can assure Mr Holland and fellow debunkers that the Official story is bullshit. And, if he'd like to hear the real truth I can be contacted here in the UK.

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Peter Dale Scott has resolved the semantics problem years ago by re-naming this nexus of issues more accurately.

He calls it deep politics. Once the disparaging name "conspiracy theory" is eliminated, then not even Joshua Holland can deny that politics is deeper than what appears on the surface.

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Wouldn't it be funny if AlterNet was a CIA front?

Wouldn't it be, ummmmmmmmmmmm...CONSISTENT?

AlterNet provides the Left with a closely monitored little bitchfest but limits debate to those issues and positions that pass muster with the federal government, while creating a virtual sign-in sheet for the targeting of future roundups and dirty tricks.


FREE AMERICA

REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY

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My opinion: the real conspiracies began after 9/11. Bush/Cheney and their fellow travelers exploited events to launch their own agenda--the Patriot Act, the war in Iraq, etc.

I've looked carefully at the evidence of 9-11 conspiracy theorists. In my opinion, the evidence is interesting but neither definitive nor conclusive.

Also, one question: If Bush/Cheney needed another "Pearl Harbor," why concoct such a weirdly complicated plan that involved four planes and twenty terrorists? One plane hitting the WTC or the Pentagon would have been enough as a cause for war.

The first rule of "dark ops" is to keep the plan as simple as possible.

And those of you who believe 9/11 was a conspiracy: please don't dump on me and the rest of us who've looked at your evidence and are not convinced by it.

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Anyone can posit a conspiracy.
Unfortunately, by definition, there is NO LOGICAL WAY to refute a conspiracy.
So they go on...and on...
What a time sink.

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Why?
Because Alternet is backed by the same big money that backs the media conglomerates.

It is obvious by their expounding same mainstream themes, blind adulation to Obama{despite the fact that his actions are continuing the Bush Regime} and moronic knee-jerk journalism.

Notice how they are not completely transparent with their "foundations". These groups are not transparent at all. So Alternet being transparent is a moot point.

* Alki Fund of the Tides Foundation
* Arca Foundation
* Bauman Foundation
* Carnegie Corporation of New York
* Cloud Mountain Foundation
* Compton Foundation
* Funding Exchange (Donor Advised)
* Glaser Progress Foundation
* LP Brown Foundation
* Nathan Cummings Foundation
* Panta Rhea Foundation
* Park Foundation
* Anonymous Donor of RSF Social Finance
* Wallace Global Fund
* Working Assets Grantmaking Fund of the Tides Foundation

Wake Up Alternet "intellectuals"
Your Scammed!

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If "9-11 CHANGED EVERYTHING" shouldn't we get to the bottom of this ? or maybe this is 'again' no time for questions & dissent cause we have a war on terror to win ;)

In this god fearing nation that still believes in 'magic bullets' and a whole lot more intellectual pabulum, the search for facts & truth really seems beyond our realm.

"The American people don't read." - Former CIA director Allen Dulles, speaking about how the American people would respond to the inconsistencies in the Warren Commission report on the JFK assassination

BTW

The official version was declared DOA from the very people that tried to write an accurate account of that tragic day ;)

9/11 COMMISSIONERS

The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission (Thomas Keane and Lee Hamilton) said that the CIA (and likely the White House) "obstructed our investigation".
linked text

The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission also said that the 9/11 Commissioners knew that military officials misrepresented the facts to the Commission, and the Commission considered recommending criminal charges for such false statements, yet didn't bother to tell the American people. linked text

Commission report was only "the first draft" of history.
9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that "There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn't have access . . . ." linked text

9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said "We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting" linked text

"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." - J. Edgar Hoover

Just saying ;)

ARE WE TREATED AS INSECTS ?
linked text

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I find it amusing that those who decry the 9/11 debunking movement never - ever - seek to confront their challengers and agree to present both sides of the evidence for objective analysis. Having spent 2 years studying everything I could find about 9/11, it is crystal why this is so. THEY WOULD LOSE...and the fallout would shake the foundation of the trust Americans naively have in the righteousness of their government. Bottom line? 9/11 reality is simply too staggering to be allowed to be aired out objectively. So it goes when corporatocracy replaces democracy. Ike was right all along.

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Joshua Holland,

9/11 is a serious business and its consequences have been staggering. It deserves serious research. You had the time to write 4 pages but apparently could not find the time to get up-to-date with current research. As a journalist that should make you uncomfortable.

The evidence for controlled demolition is very sound. Here is a good place to start your research. It is a short history of the major scientific milestones. You will notice that it contains no reference to hearsay, no eye-witness reports. It is all based on physical observations.
http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2009/LeggeCDatWTC.pdf

Please make sure you read right through it and go to the links to the evidence for explosive residues in the dust.

If you are interested in finding out what the debate is about these days read this.

If you think the official explanation for the collapse of the towers is pretty well correct here is a short paper which might make you wonder.
http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2009/FGvsNewton.pdf

Although you don't like David Ray Griffin you might like to read this. It is reasonably short and makes the case that, no matter what you might have thought about the evidence in the past, it is time to review the latest findings and take a second look. I think he is right about that and I hope you will agree.

I look forward to your further comments.

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..... an excessively large numbers of posts refuting it. It is sometimes a chore, digging through the paranoia to get to a cross section of reader opinion: often, AlterNet reminds me of hordes of bedsheet-clad, tinfoil-hatted "prophets" screaming at the top of their lungs.

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Every revolutionary plot in history was a 'conspiracy; had it been discovered and undone, its members would have been accussed of 'conspiracy' amongst other charges. Plots to start wars, or suppress information and even conter-revolutionary plots ARE conspiracies. Look up the definition, Joshua -and they can also be 'tacit', legally meaning out of unspoken agreement (what some here are calling 'confluence'). So why is Joshua wasting web pages?

Oh, and BTW, scientific theories "begin with a conclusion and work backward to "prove" its veracity." Guess scientists are conspiring to decive us, eh? Or are they looney too?

To argue that to argue conspiracies exist is against reason, IS AGAINST REASON. To sort of claim that conspiracies don't exist is to ask people to put down their guard so you can sock 'em. Shame on Joshua, with his poor and illogical arguments, only because he does not agree with the most looney of the 9/11 truthers (or theory plants to help discredit all their theories without disproving them). I don't agree with many of the most sensational. However, let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. As an engineer familiar with material science, there are questions that still unanswered, including what brought down WTC7.

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The following is a portion of an article posted on my website at the following link:
http://bushstole04.com/911/psychology_behind.htm

Psychology Behind “Conspiracy Theory”


"It must be remembered that the first job of any conspiracy, whether it be in politics, crime or within a business office, is to convince everyone else that no conspiracy exists. The conspirators' success will be determined largely by their ability to do this." [Gary Allen, None Dare Call It Conspiracy]

The truth about 9/11 is obviously of central importance.

We're incessantly reminded by prominent politicians and voices in the mass media that "September 11th changed everything".

9/11 has become the defining event of the new century, used to justify an unprecedented surge in militaristic and repressive policies within the USA and elsewhere.

Yet despite the evident significance of 9/11, there has been an astonishing lack of informed discussion in the mainstream media about what really took place on that fateful day.

Many anomalies and suspicious leads in the official story, curiosities which the mass media often helped put into the public domain in the first place, have not been followed up or given the attention they clearly merit. The obvious question: "why is the US Administration so averse to a transparent public inquiry?" has scarcely been asked.

Indeed, the western mass media's reluctance to question the official version of 9/11 critically - and the key role played by elements of the media in actively propagating this unlikely story - calls for explanation in its own right. Any objective investigation of 9/11 must account for the extraordinary phenomenon of gross media bias and apparent blindness.
....
The context is that the term "conspiracy theory" has been tootled for a number of years in such a way that the mere pronouncing of the words acts to turn off the thinking capacities of the average American. It is almost as effective as pronouncing any criticism of Israeli government to be anti-Semitic.

The first thing we want to think about is the fact that the word "conspiracy" evokes such a strong reaction in all of us: nobody wants to be branded as a "conspiracy theorist." It just isn't "acceptable." It's "un-scientific" or it's evidence of mental instability. Right? That's what you are thinking, isn't it?

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Generally I have very little to agree with the writers of Alternet. However, after having examined literally hundreds of writer’s theori es , I must conclude that those who hold a conspiracy theory either have an ax to grind, and are looking for someone to blame. I have worked with clients who were at ground zero. The day it happened many heard the so called mini explosions but it was clear to them and has proven to be the steel beams literally cracking and coming apart under the weight and heat. I applaud this article and its writer.

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I have never put much stock in the official Bush administration story about what happened on 9/11. It just seemed implausible to me that we could go from having no idea what happened on 9/11 to having a complete script of who did it, how and why on 9/12. The fact that the script that the Bush Administration produced was, itself, a conspiracy theory had little to do with its credibility. In fact our legal system puts together cases of conspiracy and convicts people of that crime every day. Not all crimes are committed by single individuals and the alternative is that conspiracies do happen.

This is not to say that I ascribe to any other particular theory of what happened on 9/11. I've made some judgments about what I think happened, but I won't elaborate on them because I really don't have adequate evidence and I don't believe anyone else does either. That is why we need a real investigation that is empowered with the ability to subpoena witnesses and ready to go where the evidence leads. It is amazing that eight years after such an important event this has not yet happened.

It is human nature to speculate and develop explanations for events like this and this is a good thing. Developing hypotheses is a healthy way to uncover truth. Simply rejecting an unapproved hypothesis as a conspiracy theory serves as a way of suppressing unwanted ideas when we should be encouraging innovative thinking. On the other hand, people with these innovative alternative hypotheses need to be open to the possibility that they too are wrong; they probably are wrong, but that does not preclude that they hold some shred of the truth and maybe much more than a shred.

We all need to recognize that we really don't know exactly what happened and we may never know. That recognition does not argue for suppressing discussion, however. It really argues for an open-minded public discussion of all points of view. Perhaps a consensus can develop over time, but the consensus will never develop without the open discussion. We should all realize though that whatever happened was almost certainly a conspiracy.

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Or are we into those ideology-born, special definitions again - like "abortion" meaning killing, "issues" meaning difficulty or trouble, "chavinist" meaning male, and, of course, "waterboarding" meaning repeated drowning and rescusitation?

Maybe we mean "liberal" meaning mindless bigotry favoring the political left, or "conservative" meaning two clicks to the right of Attila the Hun?

Is this the Biblical Tower of Babel being revisited, or are we all just that vapid?

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That was "chauvinist."

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No Josh, Alternet would not pressure you into a conspiracy theory. They like other news organizations are invested in the "official" story and compete for advertising dollars tied to it. Stay in your cubicle with Bill Maher, Christopher Hitchins and the rest of the cowed media where the view is arranged just for you. Don't you dare spend a minute of your bought and paid for time on explosives and timed delays and remote controlled drones and missiles. Stick with accepted myth rather than science. Alternet needs to cultivate the minds of its future readers. They prefer knee jerk consumers to critical thinkers.

Rock on, Dude.

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As it seems with other lifelong journalists I've known, there are whole swathes of news and reporting that are untouched, mainly due to convention, but often due to a limited idea of what constitutes 'facts' and 'evidence' as put forth by most editorial boards. Holland probably feels he knows what has to be known about these issues and can't be bothered with cross talk.

But more disturbing than this shortcoming is the point that there can be such a thing as conspiracy FACT; it is a trend throughout history. What is considered inconclusive to Holland is substantive to those who are not hindered by conventional views of politics. What HE sees as substantive reporting is not really doing much of anything to transform the politic intrigue and wrongdoing that has been toting up steadily in recent times, either. In fact, it's mostly safe as milk as long as he is not following through on a story to its full dimensions.

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The most interesting "argument" that conspiracy folks you've omitted, JH. They take the creationist approach,

1) asserting that if you don't know everything, then you don't know anything,

2) and they hold their religion to a lower standard than observable phenomena.

You have gaps in the fossil record? Gawd put it there! You can't account for every brick? It's because the NEOAIPACON WINGERS planned it that way!

Speaking to 2--people arguing for the(ir) truth will tend to dismiss physical inconsistencies with their notions, while applying an irrational level of skepticism to events that can be explained--perhaps incompletely--by human understanding of the physical world.

And finally, their rallying cry: "Why do you want to stop people from asking questions!!!????" Assumes that just by asking the question, you deserve credibility.

Irrational conspiracy theorists conflate their curiosity or poor understanding of the laws of nature--"Why did _______ happen then, huh? Huh? Answer me that!!!"--with a credible explanation. This--most of all--is where irrational arguments break down. Rather than offer an alternative idea that can be tested, they set increasingly high standards for why what was observed was not, in fact, what happened.

Space lasers, creationism, AIPACONS and zebras, oh my.

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I hope this isn't a 'personal attack', but Joshua Holland's offensive, sneering, wrong-headedness about propping up the official conspiracy of 9/11 is THE reason I do not support Alternet with my money. Anyone so dedicated to cowering in ignorance and mindless obedience deserves nothing but my own scorn and pity. Am I allowed to say fool?

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Don't be so quick to dismiss the conspiracy theorist. Granted all their eveidence may not hold water, some require major leaps of logic. But Some do warrant investigation. Lest we forget how many 'Tin hats' were screaming that the invasion into Iraq had nothing to do with WMD's which has been proven valid. That the Bushies were making up the connection between AQ and Saddam. That the Anthrax came from OUR labs, not Saddams.
Granted you have to filter through some of their conjectures- but it does not mean their premise is Delusional. How many more times are you willing to eat your hat when the 'cheeto eaters' are proven correct?
Besides what is the most public and creditable Conspiracy theory ever Claimed...Ikes Warning about the power and agenda of the Miltitary Industrial Complex.
You needn't Follow some vague 'Dots'- one need only review the ideology , expansion and profits of those organizations which would be encompassed in that type of 'society' over the last few decades to realize Ike was warning US for a Reason in his farewell address...It was already Up and Operating. Plus being a High ranking military man himself- he had first hand knowledge- so he wasn't guessing.
And really how can you so easily dismiss the idea of Traitors in our midst when the most notable one surfaced in the Revolutionary War. His name now is synonomous with Traitor- Benedict Arnold.
So could 9/11 have been an 'Inside Job'- it's possible.Thus if it's possible it is worth investigating. If the realm of possiblity was ignored would Watergate ever been uncovered, Iran Contra- just to name a few recent cases of Conspiracy that were substantiated.
Come on take your blinders off and at least admit some conspiracy Theories have been proven valid.
Frankly this quick dismissal of theories has rendered the media impotent,nothing more than Parrots instead of the investigative body serving the interest of the Public to uncover Truths.
Do I beleive that the WTC or Biulding 7 was intentionally detonated- not really. But I do see a pattern of activities conducted by covert miltiary operations and Corp interest which lend to the idea that those attacks were retribution for previous acts committed over decades, and concealed behind Our Flag. Those were not attacks on US and our Freedoms- those were direct hits on buildings which house the elements of the MIC...Pentagon, WTC ($$$) and most likely #93 was headed to the heart of foreign policy- the WH or the Hill.I'm not saying those who worked in those building were all part of a conspiracy- just mere worker bees with no idea what their daily routine was facilitating.
Follow the Careers of Cheney Rummy and Wolfie and you will see a Direct Connection to what would comprise the organization Ike Called the MIC...Military,Oil and Commerce. Obviously these three could not be the Granddaddies, but certainly could be acting as the Current Godfathers to this 'Secret Organization'.

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>Do I know why a BBC broadcast that announced the collapse of World Trade Center Tower 7 bore a time stamp suggesting it was aired 26 minutes before the building fell? No, I don't, but I don't believe the U.S. government -- or whoever was really behind 9/11 -- would blow its cover by tipping off the BBC.

Why not? The Bilderbergs have meetings with editors from major newspapers present all the time. They don't say anything.

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FTW - October 9, 2001 – Although uniformly ignored by the mainstream U.S. media, there is abundant and clear evidence that a number of transactions in financial markets indicated specific (criminal) foreknowledge of the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. In the case of at least one of these trades -- which has left a $2.5 million prize unclaimed -- the firm used to place the “put options” on United Airlines stock was, until 1998, managed by the man who is now in the number three Executive Director position at the Central Intelligence Agency.

Until 1997 A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard had been Chairman of the investment bank A.B. Brown. A.B. Brown was acquired by Banker’s Trust in 1997. Krongard then became, as part of the merger, Vice Chairman of Banker’s Trust-AB Brown, one of 20 major U.S. banks named by Senator Carl Levin this year as being connected to money laundering. Krongard’s last position at Banker’s Trust (BT) was to oversee “private client relations.” In this capacity he had direct hands-on relations with some of the wealthiest people in the world in a kind of specialized banking operation that has been identified by the U.S. Senate and other investigators as being closely connected to the laundering of drug money.

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I would also like to say to Mr. Holland to go back and examine the physics of the collapses, especially WTC-2. Do diligent study and realize, like few do, that the World Trade Center towers carried 60% or more of their support structure on THE OUTER PERIMETER of the building and that they were built with a structural redundency many times the support requirement, as all buildings are, do deal with the enormous wind-loading of the those rectangular shapes. Much of outer structure on WTC-2 was intact, as the building was asymetrically damaged, and the steel in the perimeter could not have become hot enough to soften simply because it could radiate heat to the surrounding air. And it sure-as-hell could not have softened AT THE SAME TIME IN THE UNDAMAGED ONE-HALF OR MORE to allow for a neat fall into its own footprint. If that building would have fallen on its own, it should have TOPPLED OVER like a notched tree.

The point of this is that WTC-2 (or WTC-1 or -7) should not have fallen at all, as the CHIEF ENGINEER ON THE PROJECT POINTED OUT (I think you can trust HIS judgement, can't you Mr. Holland?).

The much larger point is that you don't have to start with debunkable timelines and hearsay "evidence" to know that something is wrong with the government's theory; you need only start with the Laws of Physics, which are laws that cannot be broken. Of course, if you don't understand physics, or structure, or temperature loading, or heat radiation, or that the steel in those buildings was rated by UL to withstand 2000° F for four hours (a higher temperature than jet fuel burns under ideal conditions, which did not exist in those buildings, as evidenced by black smoke), or that other buildings suffering the same fate with fire did NOT fall down (none, EVER), then you are free to satisfy yourself that 9/11 theorists are all nuts and go on your merry way – and never know the truth.

By the way: quite a number of scientists who HAVE studied the physical collapses, who DO understand physics, and steel structures, and heat loading, and the thermal capability of buring jet fuel, do not agree with you or the official story either. Are THEY all nuts?!

I'm not saying that I'm the expert in this (although I have worked in these fields for more than 30 years); what I am saying is that you are not, either, so do much more study before you come out with another of these uoinformed blanket denials. You are simply, wrong.

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methinks thou doth protest too much.

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Mr. Zinn points out in his history studies various times people conspire to do things. Just last Decembr 19th the man who did the dirty computer work for Carl Rove was killed when his small plane crashed. Just as he was scheduled to testify. What a break for Rove. The ship that was sank and got us into WW1 was full of ammunition. The escorts were recalled and the Lusitania was told to come "straight in." 9/11 well what about the "dancing arabs?" I saw a picture and I know thermite when I see it. Mr. Giancanna was murdered just as he was being called to testify about the JFK murder. Mr. Garrison was obviously set up. Matthew Hale wrote about 9/11 and millions were spent to jail him, even the judges family was murdered during the trial - and this was done to implicate Mr. Hale. Why has no one asked of President Obama's chief of staff, his military service, his father's roll in the murder of Count Folke Bernadotte and so on? Bilderburgers?? No there are no groups out to harm our republic, no conspiracies as such(SARCASTIC Comment).

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Don't you know that JFK was assasinated by extra-terrestials in league with the CIA because he was on to Area 51 and the plans being hatched there to develop Chemtrails that would make us all believe the 9/11 was an inside job plotted by the Illuminati?

And it also helps sell books and movies.

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You people are like religious fundamentalists. The 9/11 "Truth" movement is made up of people who have more faith in partial facts and fictions than rapture anticipating Christians.

Isolate and isolate and isolate facts. Do not bother with asking the bigger questions about the far fetched idea that us humans, who are painfully fallible, especially those in the Bush admin, were capable of executing a secret plot which would have taken countless people within countless agencies and countless power structures both government and corporate. What branches of the government and corporate elite did this? Maybe ask a "distinguished" scientist seeking out an audience with eager fanatics.

Think about Watergate. That was small scale. Breaking into a hotel room. How did that work out again. How easy is it for politicians whose every moves are documented and scrutinized to sneak about playing God. Like seriously, f*ck...

You honestly believe a group of advanced apes who constantly prove ourselves to be incompetent imbeciles could pull it off almost completely undetected and without a single person "coming clean" for murdering 3000 of their neighbours.

Also, what is the motive? Is it greed? Ok, lets accept the proposition that 9/11 was used as a catalyst to build up the political capital to invade Iraq and Afghanistan to secure precious natural resources for America. Firstly, if you are Bush and co. and you get intel about threats and you have these imperial ambitions... why plot your own attack. You don't need to. If you let them happen, as I believe they did (albeit, i bet they didn't anticipate the carnage) your work is done for you. And that is the real crime. And a very real possibility in this scenario. Indifference or tacit acceptance of an impending attack knowing it will give you political capital.

However, the above issue can't be investigated. The incompetence or indifference or near tacit approval of a legitimate and substantiated threat cannot be investigated, because a bunch of near religious conspiracists have poisoned the water.

George Bush would be laughing his butt off if he read this board.
He would think you people are out of your minds. And he may even be complimented that you think so highly of his organizational skills.


p.s. Could 9/11 Truthers not try and hijack unrelated columns. Also, are you people the same folks who believe that Zeitgeist is not simply a big pile of incoherent, convoluted, irrational bullcrap.

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"Truth" is, there is more than one "9/11 truth" organization out there. I have looked at most of them; I'm not an engineer, but I've read the reports of engineers who say the collapses appeared to be controlled demolitions, the structures couldn't have been brought down by the planes alone because of their stability, the presence of nanothermite collected by private citizens before debris removal....I'm going to assert here that the official story is a lie; we know it's a lie; we just don't know what the real truth is. That's why we need a new 9/11 commission, because members of the commission have said themselves that they were "spoon-fed" information or were limited in the scope of their investigation.
Very little has been mentioned about the hurricane that was just sitting off the coast of New York that day, seemingly stalled. Very little has been said about the missing trillions, the strange "coincidence" that NORAD was engaged in exercises that day, and many other inconsistencies that have been pointed out over and over again by various citizens, some of whom were in a position to know what the h(*% was going on. By the way, a "conspiracy" can involve only two people, although something of this magnitude probably involved a few more.

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I'm surprised that this article and its Comments thread give little attention to the enormous role of conspiracy theory among consumers of Right-wing politics. A few minutes on townhall.com any day will reveal that most on the Right find government not only negligent of their needs but wilfully malevolent and intending them harm. Much of their ideation has to do with defending themselves against the government ie "I have many guns and am ready for them when they come to disarm me". A development that has astonished me is that when I have quoted back to them some of the extreme statements they have made on townhall, they have reacted by assuming me to be employed by the government to keep them under surveillance.

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It's not about making a pet theory fit, it's about looking at facts.

You don't need a conspiracy theory to see that the government narrative is riddled with inconsistencies and unanswered questions.

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I don't believe the official stories mostly because I lost any semblance of trust in this government years ago. They lie to cover their asses. They always have and they always will.

But I don't believe 99% of the conspiracy theories I've seen because most of them are complete bunk - for example - steel doesn't need to melt into a puddle to collapse when it's bearing the weight of hundreds of thousands of tons, it just needs to weaken.

What's sad is the level of arrogance bordering on narcissism amongst the conspiracy theorists. Imbue those you don't like with godlike ability - then imbue yourselves as the only ones that can see it happening. Everyone else is obviously wrong.

But if it were a plot by people in the US government, as opposed to a bunch of 'Afghans living in caves', someone would have cracked by now realizing the horror they'd inflicted on this nation.

So what really happened on 9/11?

We walked out of a bar half tanked, we got jumped and sucker punched and realized that when we stood back up our shoes and wallet were gone.

That's all.

The problem is we don't want to accept this reality. We're too 'big and bad' to have been taken down a peg by a bunch of 'Afghans living in caves with cellphones' (they were mostly Saudis but why quibble about details). But we seem to be forgetting that our port security has been lax for decades and those little x-ray machines don't help much against a creative attacker with the time and motivation to study your weaknesses. It worked for Tim McVeigh. It worked for the Unabomber. It worked for every domestic terrorist that's walked into an abortion clinic and blown people up. It's just a simple fact that despite things like TIA, our government simply doesn't have the resources to monitor everyone and model every possible scenario.

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The Bilderberg meetings is either going on, or coming to a close in Greece. Read all about it here, http://tiny.cc/ydbVR

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You can always tell it is a slow news day for Alternet. Send Joshua out with an article about 9/11 Truthers. Isn't there a rate increase for ads based on traffic?

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The official 9/11 explanation is itself a conspiracy theory. And there's nothing wrong with it, as a theory, except where it is being challenged, our government is being painfully quiet.
And that's no way to put something to bed. It is, instead, a wake up call, to all Americans and true patriots.

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What about Operation Northwoods? Was a false flag conspiracy plan proposed by the Pentagon?Plan called for CIA to commit acts of terrorism in US. to create public support for a war aganist Cuba.Bomb ships in Miami harbor-Use F-86 fighter planes and paint them to look like a MIG from Cuba. Read it anywhere on line-Information Freedom Act brought this out. This sounds like the preamble to 9/11. Conspiracy plan by the CIA and Pentagon.

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and now a new book called

The Ground Truth: the story behind America's Defense on 9/11

comes out, written by John Farmer, and "the publisher . . .Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, states that 'Farmer builds the inescapably convincing case that the official version not only is almost entirely untrue but serves to create a false impression of order and security.'" Hmmm. What say you, Josh? And about all those firemen and others who reported hearing and being in explosions in the basement of the towers, what about that? And the molten steel--the government's own reports include that info. What's up with that? And the recent report of the explosive found in the dust of the World Trade Center? Do you think it's insane to question the official version? Boy, I don't. They lie. You know that. The architects and engineers for truth know that. But then, people who point out very obvious discrepancies are CONSPIRACY theorists, like those Jersey Girls, and therefore PARANOID, right? Sheesh. If you handed in that paper in a freshman comp class and I was your teacher, I'd tell you it needs revision.

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My first poli-sci professor said that those in power do not need to operate within the confines of a conspiracy...they are simply powerful enough to do whatever they like.

No conspiracies...no secret shadow government...just business as usual for the powerful elite.

Think of all the people who have lost their lives because they wouldn't play by US rules but instead dared to interfere with the US's quest for profit and empire:

Panamanian leader Omar Torrijos, President Allende of Chile, President Roldos of Equador...the US backed 2002 coup attempt of Chavez, and the list goes on.

No conspiracy needed.

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It was no conspiracy for the last administration to seize the opportunity of a terrorist attack to push forth its disaster agenda. They knew it would happen sooner or later to use as an excuse, to manufacture consent to make a grab for Iraqis oil fields.

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Of course the world abounds with conspiracies, malign and otherwise; but believing in all-encompassing conspiracies ignores a basic reality of human nature. The wider the conspiracy, the more people must be involved and it defies belief that no-one whistleblows, sells the story or just talks to a mistress or lover.

Yet how comforting it is to devote your life to propounding grandiose theories: you don't have to care about any other issue because it wouldn't exist if people knew the truths that you do; seeing as other issues are so insignificant in your grand scheme of things, you don't have to do anything about them and, even better, none of your individual choices and actions have contributed to the problems; and, best of all, seeing as you know that the visible apparatus of power is an elaborate (but secret) sham, you don't have to engage in the sustained, often boring, political action necessary to bring change on even one front.

Unfortunately Man can screw things up for all the good old fashioned venal reasons he always has; sadly, Man can screw things up because he stupid, arrogant, or subject to hubris.

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No, Josh, really - we don't think you are in on the conspiracy. We think you are a decent, upstanding, reasonably liberal (in the Clintonian sense of the word) sort of guy.
The sort of fella who just happens to be constitutionaly incapable of seeing much of anything that diverges more than a degree or two from the official version of events that transpire around us - i.e., the version seen on CNN.
Sadly, the world is full of people like you. Along with the hopelessly befuddled mass of the flock, your sort simply cannot understand the fact that conspiracies have always been, and likely always will be, an intrinsic behavioral trait of those at the pinnacle of power. As long as the rest of us allow tiny groups of individuals to hold us in thrall, we can expect them to employ a continuous series of devious strategems to pursue their profit and power oriented goals.
It really isn't difficult for them to pull the wool over the eyes of you sheep... since they sheer you on a regular basis they have a good supply on hand for that purpose. It doesn't take many of them to pull it off either... just a few key individuals in key positions, and a willing army of credulous fools like you to help them achieve their ends. Ah well, such is our wonderful world.

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Let's change the language.

Calling 9/11 "Truth" a conspiracy theory is an insult to the phrase.

In reality, some conspiracies are/were real. There REALLY was a conspiracy to kidnap Abraham Lincoln that morphed into a conspiracy to kill him. There REALLY was a conspiracy to assassinate Archduke Franz Ferdinand that morphed into World War I.

Conspiracies happen every day. A couple of meth heads, for instance, decide to knock off a pharmacy to get all the Sudafed. One follows through. They're both guilty of the conspiracy.

And herein lies an essential fact: most true conspiracies involve relatively small numbers of people and an even smaller number of people who actually act on the agreement at the conspiracy's core.

Grand Scale Conspiracies are almost impossible to achieve because of the simple facts of human nature: people can't keep their mouths shut. A conspiracy is effective for getting little things done, but not huge ones.

As such, I suggest we change the descriptors to this "debate." What we are looking at here are "Grand Schemes," not conspiracies.

Because there are real conspiracies that do real damage, and because understanding those conspiracies is marginalized and obscured by these larger semi-paranoid fantasies, I suggest we take the word "conspiracy" away and reserve it for serious matters.

For the 9/11 Truthers and the Bilderbergers and the Illuminaticists, etc., I propose a new phrase, to-wit: "Grand Schemers."

As a matter of practical application, I suggest AlterNet henceforward leave the topic of Grand Schemes the hell alone. Articles such as this tend to drive the Grand Schemers into a hopping-mad frenzy.

On the other, a cynical person such as myself might be inclined to infer that, knowing the effect this topic has on a certain element inside the liberal/progressive community, the folks at AlterNet conspired to gin up some web traffic with a topic known to bring folks out of the woodwork with blood in their eyes and a fever in their brains. See, THAT'S a manageable conspiracy, and the very heart of the definitional demarcation I propose. If true, it's also disingenuous, manipulative, cruel and unworthy of an institution like AlterNet.

America's Liberal Voice

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After all, crime (ex. street crime) could just as easily be thought of as a feature of "Human Nature" as indulgence in Argument Ad Hominem. (In Holland case, he dismisses conspiracy theories due to his dislike for the mentally ill, whom make up a large percentage of the conspiracy theory population.) Ditto for bullying, prejudice, and conspiracy theories.

Let's also remember that resistance to prejudice, personal attacks, etc is also a [generally good] feature of "Human Nature".

There also must be plenty of instances of argument ad hominem that Holland wouldn't like: Rush Limbaugh, for instance, once dismissed public education on the grounds that it was supported by Karl Marx.

Not that I'd "bite someone's head off" for simply indulging in argument ad hominem. (A lot of people go too far in attacking others for commtting logical fallacies.)

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I’m glad someone at Alternet finally addressed this. I’m not for censorship of any kind, if they want to come in here and give their reasoning why we should all join the Truth Movement, then great. But it’s really annoying when EVERY SINGLE THREAD gets turned into “You’re a good writer, but why don’t you become a real patriot and talk about [insert conspiracy theory here].” It doesn’t matter if it’s about politics, the media, drugs, sex, macaroni salad recipes, they’re invaded. They also don’t seem to realize coming in acting like assholes right off the bat is going to turn every single person who might read what they have to say with an open mind off. I know they’re permanently worked up into a lather, and have been shut down and insulted on various other message boards by people who think they’re kooks, so they‘re angry before the debate even begins. But you can’t ask people to take a huge leap in their worldview by insulting them, it doesn’t make sense. Just some constructive criticism.

As for Truthers themselves, the majority of them are even worse than trying to have a conversation with a true believer christian. Just replace being accused of being an agent of Satan into being accused of being a “disinfo” agent (yeah, Cigarette Smoking Man is my boss, actually.) And replace their discredited Truther leaders (who tend to be lying about their expertise or far right white supremacists with an agenda to pin it on the Jews some how) with offering up televangelists and bible scriptures as their proof. It’s always the same thing, they get debunked and then toss the burden of proof on you. Only everything you offer up is somehow “disinfo”. And just like dying and going to the afterlife is the unattainable proof of true believers to never prove them wrong, the end game for Truthers is an unattainable “real investigation” to satisfy them. The problem being no current government employees can be involved because they’re “in on the plot” and they want their Truther leaders to run it, which is never ever going to happen. Their movement is set up where there’s just no getting through to them. The guy who runs my favorite bar is a Truther (although far more rational and nicer than the majority of those on Alternet) and we’ve been going back and forth for close to 3 years twice a week on debating it. It’s going to be an eternal debate.

Believe what you want to believe, but there is so much REAL evil on the planet I just get frustrated when people waste their time and energy making up some cartoonish bullshit. It derails anything getting done when you’re sidetracked arguing with a group of people who spin real events into a conspiracy of a group of bloodthirsty vampire government workers when things are devious enough in real life as they are. Truthers are not “brave patriots”, they live in a safe fantasy role playing game basically. They’re online warriors playing a bad X-Files episode version of Dungeons & Dragons, battling the imaginary evil of an event that is 8 years old. They never leave the safety of behind their keyboard, they don’t do shit but post links and lengthy message board posts between patting each other on the back for being brave, how is this brave?

They also need to settle on one version of the conspiracy events if they expect to get anywhere. There’s like 80 versions of events they’re hawking, and it seems anytime you debunk one theory the person goes “No, that controlled demolition theory is disinfo! It was really a missile with hologram plane covering it!” Have a convention and vote on your partyline or something, guys.

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After all, crime (ex. street crime) could just as easily be thought of as a feature of "human nature" as indulgence in argument ad hominem. (Holland dismisses conspiracy theories here because a lot of conspiracy theorists are mentally ill, and he doesn't like such people.)
Ditto for bullying, prejudice, and conspiracy theories.

Let's also remember that resistance to prejudice, bullying, personal attacks, etc is also a [generally good] feature of human nature.

There must be a lot of instances of Argument Ad Hominem that Holland wouldn't like: Rush Limbaugh, for instance, once condemned universal public education on the grounds that it was supported by Karl Marx.

Not that I'd "bite someone's head off" for indulging in Argument Ad Hominem. - A lot of people go too far in attacking others over illogical thinking.

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I can't agree with you on this one Josh. While much of the conspiracy theories are fueled by hype and paranoia, I can't help but wonder how the gov't. prepared a 7000? page document called the patriot act so quickly. We are talking about the gov't. here. What little they can do is usually wrong and inefficent.
I believe in the CT based on human nature. We are creatures of conquest from the barroom to the bedroom to the average workplace to the corporation, to gov't. etc. Can you show me an example of any system of gov't. that never became oppessive of it's people? If there is one, how long did it last? I can only think of one and the people rejected it.

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There is no reason we can't uncover conspiracies AND examine the realities of our political institutions at the same time. The author did not prove his point in the article to me. Furthermore, because some conspiracy theories are just that does not mean real conspiracies do not exist.

I suppose I might have rolled my eyes at conspiracy theories if I had not experienced what I did at a major corporation. There seemed to be some bizarre cult in operation. They would harass people to try and join, but it was all done very secretly. (And quite sophomorically!) I didn't so I can't say for sure what it really was. There is a possibility it was just some bored English majors playing a joke for their own amusement. But I know I didn't image coming home and being left "calling cards" of their illegal entry into my house. And other things I won't mention. The interesting thing was, when I started to ask others about this (who did not work for the same company), a surprising number knew about the phenomena. I can't believe they were all just humoring me. There if far more to it, so it opened my mind to the possibility that if this stuff can be going on, anything is possible.

When the mafia first gained prominence, people did not believe it existed either. And then there are those conspiracy "nuts" who say the CIA has infiltrated just about every major media outlet in the U.S, including the progressive ones. No matter. As a person who refused to sell her soul :) I PROMISE you this; The truth ALWAYS wins out in the end. It is a universal law. So if there are conspiracies, they can't win in the end no matter how much they delude themselves they are all powerful!

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Based on the replies to this article, one theme seems to emerge, above and beyond the scope of this "provoking" topic. Many Americans do not trust their Government and leaders. Whether or not there are conspiracies (I personally believe there are many in our sordid history) and whether or not the author derogatorily labels those who lean toward distrusting the "official versions" of 911, the unmistakable fact is, based on the majority of replies here and elsewhere, we do not trust our Government and that is a far bigger problem than arguing over the improbabilities of many given, official versions of events that simply should have been in the realm of impossibilities!

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If you believe the official theory, that the "911" attacks were perpetratred by 19 arab men (+1 who missed his flight) coordinated from caves in Tora Bora, you believe the story that you are expected to believe. There was and there will never be a real investigation as to the actual physical events of that day. That has been taken care of. The pool of evidence is now so spoiled with disinformation that any serious inquiry will never take place. A real investigation would have begun from a simple, logical point examining the actual sequence of events and actual evidence and witness testimony to arrive at what most probably occurred and why i.e. dissmiss the impossible and whatever remains, however disgusting and ugly, is the "truth". The "facts" were simply made to fit what most people were already instructed and were pre disposed to accept. Highjacked planes fly into buildings, buildings fall down. Evil freedom hating A-rabs must have done this to us peace loving gentle 'mericans... lets'go get'em boys! Job done.

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