COMMENTS: 79
How to Make the Neocons Crazy About the Middle East: Tell Them the Truth
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Old Charlie Krauthammer, the neocon who won't go away, is at it again.
Now he's hammering at an old favorite target -- the Hamas party and its political leader, Khaled Meshal -- and its new accomplice, that scurrilously liberal newspaper, the New York Times.
The Times' latest moral fault (according to Krauthammer) was to send two of its top Middle East reporters to interview Meshal and then actually report some of what he said (though the five-hour interview was boiled down to a brief article and a handful of quotes). "Hamas Says It Grounded Rockets," the Times headline announced; Meshal explained that firing rockets from Gaza is not now a useful strategy for pursuing Hamas' goals.
But for Krauthammer the important news is Meshal's endorsement of a two-state solution, with a Palestinian state only in the West Bank and Gaza, currently occupied by Israel. "We are with a state on the 1967 borders, based on a long-term truce," Meshal said. Asked what "long-term" meant, he said, "10 years."
Actually, that's not really news. Hamas leaders have been saying for several years now that they want a two-state solution and a 10-year truce, as everyone who follows the issue closely knows very well.
What's new is that the oh-so-influential New York Times is willing to bring Meshal's message to a much larger public and thus give it legitimacy for the masses in the U.S. -- which is precisely what has Krauthammer unnerved.
How does this message square with the infamous Hamas Charter that calls for the elimination of the state of Israel? Although Meshal still insisted that "he would not recognize Israel … he urged outsiders to ignore the Hamas charter," saying that it's 20 years old and, "we are shaped by our experiences."
In other words, times change even if charters don't; watch what we do now, not what we said years ago. Let us negotiate the 10-year truce and live in peace alongside Israel.
Aha, cries Krauthammer; there's the wily devil's trick: "After a decade of Hamas arming itself within a Palestinian state that narrows Israel to 8 miles wide -- Hamas restarts the war against a country it remains pledged to eradicate." And how do we know that's their diabolical plan? "The Palestinians" -- apparently a monolithic bloc like the Borg -- "have never accepted the idea of living side by side with a Jewish state."
For his "proof," Krauthammer points to the famous negotiations that President Bill Clinton convened at Camp David in 2000, between Israeli Prime Minister (now defense minister) Ehud Barak and Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat.
"No Israeli government would turn down a two-state solution in which the Palestinians accepted territorial compromise and genuine peace with a Jewish state," Krauthammer claims. "Barak offered precisely such a deal in 2000. … The Palestinian response (for those who have forgotten) was: No."
Actually, it's Krauthammer -- and all the AIPAC-ites so loudly supporting Israel's hard-line government -- who have conveniently forgotten the essential facts.
Actually, the Palestinians' response in 2000 was, "Let's keep talking." A year later, when agreement was closer at hand, it was Barak who pulled the plug on the talks. He turned down precisely a two-state solution in which the Palestinians accepted territorial compromise and genuine peace with a Jewish state.
And several times since, when Palestinians were close to uniting around a similar peace proposal, the Israeli government has managed to torpedo the process -- just as it largely ignored the ground-breaking Arab League peace initiative of 2002.
What about the territorial compromise the Israelis tried to force on the Palestinians at Camp David, which most Israelis and their supporters ritually refer to as "the generous offer?" It was really territorial suicide for the Palestinians -- as Krauthammer would know if he read the Times (or at least its Web site) less selectively.
A Times blog -- called the Lede -- recently offered a bald statement of the truth that careful analysts of "the generous offer" have always known: The Palestinian state as envisioned by Israeli leaders (even so-called liberals like Barak, Ehud Olmert and Tzipi Livni) is a patchwork quilt -- an "archipelago" of little blocs of land separated by innumerable Jewish settlements, security roads and checkpoints -- where economic prosperity, and indeed ordinary daily life, would be as impossible as it is now.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: weathered on May 13, 2009 2:56 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As long as Netanyahu/Likud choreograph their dark screenplay we'll all suffer. Tragically it never had to get like this.
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» But don't leave out the British who made them what they are...
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: 'a rain of rockets' and no mortalities.
Posted by: chomsky
Comments are closed-
Posted by: tmoselle on May 13, 2009 2:59 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what an incredibly fresh look at what is really happening in Palestine. as one who has worked and lived in Jerusalem for the past year I am so relieved to hear that reality is finally being given air in the US. now the question is will anyone give such news life.
what is happening to the Palestinian people is truly genocide. Palestinians (Muslim and Christian alike) are being eradicated from the land of their ancestors. lands are being stolen, businesses are being closed and their inventories consficated. those who are able to hold on to their land can not build on it because they are denied building permits while any Israeli can freely get such permits. Arabs who build anyway or who are in older homes before such permits were required are forced out of the homes and the home is destroyed. these barbarous acts drive many out of the country. if that is not ethnic cleansing, what is?
What has been the US governments response to such inhumanity? not much! Hopefully the new adminstration will hold the Israeli government to true international standards and make them responsive to United Nations resolutions which they have so far selectively ignored. Witholding some of the tens of billions of US dollars given to Israel could also create a pause in Israeli thinking but even if not it would certainly send a message to the thinking world that at least US intentions are finally striving for higher moral ground.
as for FOX Fable news??? well that is another story.
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» RE: TRM
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: US government response? Tens of billions of US dollars given to Israel
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: colinmeister on May 13, 2009 4:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ethnic cleansing has a bad ring to it when carried out anywhere else in the world, in fact several western countries took military action to curb it in the former Yugoslavia. The USA seems to think it is quite acceptable for Israel to practice ethnic cleansing, and their toadies in Europe seem unwilling to disagree.
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» RE: There is a name for Israel's tactics.
Posted by: logansafi
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Posted by: Stephen888oz on May 13, 2009 4:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: iris89 on May 13, 2009 4:55 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"No Israeli government would turn down a two-state solution in which the Palestinians accepted territorial compromise and genuine peace with a Jewish state," Krauthammer claims. "Barak offered precisely such a deal in 2000. … The Palestinian response (for those who have forgotten) was: No."
Yet, reality is all the land in Palestine rightly belongs to the Hebrews, to learn more about this in detail, go to:
Whose Land Is It? A Study of The Land of Palestine
Click Here
Wars should be eliminated and at present one religion is responsible for over 90% of the violence on earth as pointed out by an Australian newspaper as follows:
"Did you know that 90-95% of the conflicts in the world today are Muslims fighting non-muslims or each other? " [source - The Weekend Australian, November 26-27, 2005 AD]"
I am getting very tired of hearing Palestinians and other Ishmaelite crying crocodile tears and always trying to put the blame for what they do on others such as their conspiracy weavers tried to do about who did 9/11/2001 attack on the World Trade Center, etc. Screaming against what they call wrongful occupations when they are guilty of occupying Byzantine territory, Palestine which belongs to the Israelites [see Numbers the 34 th. Chapter in any Bible for proof of this, and their outright greed as they have over 98% of the Middle East, but still greedly want the less than 2% belonging to their sister tribe Israel] - its time we get real and put an end to this so the world can stop experiencing continuous Ishmaelite induced strife such as shooting rockets at Israel.
Solution, dissolve this false religion and rid the earth of at least 90% of the violence. But of course the politicians will not do what is needed since as Jeremiah 10:23 says, "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." (Authorized King James Bible; AV). To read detailed information, go to the following article:
When Should A Religion Be Dissolved In The Interest Of World Peace?
Click Here
Along with many other useful articles.
Iris89
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» Quoting the Bible,
Posted by: linecrosser
» RE: Occupiers - the Palestanians - Should Leave Occupied Lands
Posted by: Bjeorn
» JEEZUS H. CHRIST! I wish you religious wackos would go post
Posted by: Plexius2
» RE: Great points Plex
Posted by: marid
» RE:Religion causes more problems than anything else.
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» When Should A Religion Be Dissolved In The Interest Of World Peace?
Posted by: Karina
» Iris, you will always be ignorant
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Great Idea, Iris, let's dissolve Judaism, Christianity and Islam ...
Posted by: shanaza
» False Religion???
Posted by: Tweck9
» Organized Religion,
Posted by: linecrosser
» Your Religion Is Crap
Posted by: rgoalierob
» RE: Occupiers - the Palestanians - Should Leave Occupied Lands
Posted by: cmagda
» RE: Occupiers - the Palestanians - Should Leave Occupied Lands
Posted by: aichbe
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lloydmillerus on May 13, 2009 5:02 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Charters Matter
Posted by: aichbe
» RE: Charters Matter
Posted by: abstractedaway
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Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS on May 13, 2009 7:13 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Impeach them for what? Also.. your taxes were just cut, fool. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Impeach them for more wars and bailouts. And I'm still HUNGRY for MORE FOOD and MORE TAX CUTS ! MM !
Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS
» You didn't answer my question...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Impeach them for what? Also.. your taxes were just cut, fool. nm
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: Hey Doofus (how appropriate)
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: Hey Doofus (how appropriate)
Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS
» RE: Hey Doofus (how appropriate)
Posted by: linecrosser
» Oh, you voted for the tooth fairy, great choice!
Posted by: hardwroc
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Posted by: philosimphy on May 13, 2009 7:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on May 13, 2009 7:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As America has protected the Israeli's destructive behavior, instead of being an honest peace broker; the tacit approval has created the monster that is Israel. As many Americans are unaware of what really goes on over there, and the media only gives the Israeli side - never to mention the provocation that drove the Palestinians to respond - it is good to see the NY Times to at least pretend to give a more balanced view!
America needs to start divesting from Israel, this will not only get their attention, but will bring them to the negotiating table, really willing to make concessions! For all the Israeli "talk" about peace, it must be a peace on their terms - I think they need to be willing to go back to the 1967 borders - they are on "OCCUPIED TERRITORY" until then.
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Posted by: Ellie1 on May 13, 2009 8:01 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: BulldogRedeemer on May 13, 2009 8:41 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your article would have more merit if you acted like an adult and stop your name-calling. It is all the fault of those bad o' Israelis. Childish! The fact is that they are both at fault. Israel must recognize a congruous Palestinian State, not "islands of settlements"' and Hamas must OFFICIALLY recognize Israel's right to exist. Period! Oh yeah, a land swap that widens the narrows to at least 30 miles for land that would connect the West Bank to Gaza needs to be negotiated. Eight miles wide is crazy. That just begs for future mischief by the Palestinians.
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» RE: BulldogRedemer
Posted by: Tweck9
» RE: BulldogRedemer
Posted by: redstarwraith
» RE: BulldogRedemer
Posted by: chomsky
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on May 13, 2009 9:33 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Bang, bang Maxwell Silverhammer
Came down upon his head.
Bang, bang Maxwell Silverhammer
Made sure that he was dead"
Apologies to the Beatles.
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» RE: What's in a word
Posted by: Aquinas
» Krauthammer
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
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Posted by: chance garden on May 13, 2009 10:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do they feel they deserve to occupy land?
Seems like they wear a coat of many colors...
So what is a Jew...What makes them different than the rest of us?
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» RE: What exactly is a Jew?
Posted by: improperly_sedated
» RE: What exactly is a Jew?
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: What exactly is a Jew?
Posted by: Aquinas
» RE: What exactly is a Jew?
Posted by: chance garden
» Let's remember that they "won" that land in war.
Posted by: hardwroc
» RE: Let's remember that they "won" that land in war.
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: Let's remember that they "won" that land in war.
Posted by: Aquinas
» RE: Let's remember that they "won" that land in war.
Posted by: Jdog
» RE: Let's remember that they "won" that land in war.
Posted by: Aquinas
» There are many, many Jews and Israelis who work to end Israel's bad policies, here are some:
Posted by: Defenestrator
» Jews, for all intents and purposes, are like any other
Posted by: Jdog
» RE: Jews, for all intents and purposes, are like any other
Posted by: chance garden
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Posted by: rgoalierob on May 13, 2009 12:48 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
His ideas are rat-like as well.
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» RE: Krauthammer Is An Official Member of The Rat Family
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
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Posted by: fhughes on May 13, 2009 1:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: BlueSun on May 13, 2009 2:06 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, I am a fan of accurate history. And, unless you understand the history of how this conflict came to be, it is easy to be swayed one way or another by the extreme and overblown rhetoric of both sides.
For hundreds of years before WW I, the entire land of Palestine (which included Jordan) was under the rulership of the Ottoman Turkish empire. There were small numbers of Jews and Muslims living a hard-scrabble existence, but neither group really owned much, if any, of the land. The land was, in fact, the property of a dozen or so wealthy foreign landlords, called the Effendis, most of whom lived in what is now Turkey.
After WW I, the British and French ended up in control of the Middle East and, with the connivance of the League of Nations, carved up the land, making artificial borders and countries. Thus the land of Palestine (an ancient Latin word for the area) was born.
In 1922, the British cut up Palestine, giving away the larger part of it to their Arabian allies, the Hashemites, led by King Abdullah. The Hashemites had lost their power struggle with the House of Saud in Arabia, and the Brits simply handed them the major portion of Palestine, which they first named Trans-Jordan, and later just Jordan when they annexed the West Bank in 1950.
In the period between the two wars, the Arab/Muslim inhabitants of the area hotly denied that they were a separate ethnic identity. They claimed that they were, in fact, part of Greater Syria, with whom they shared strong linguistic, social, and ethnic ties. The ideas that the Arab residents of British Mandatory Palestine were a separate people, or that Palestine was a separate nation or homeland were loudly and angrily disputed by local Arab leaders. Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, and the other newly created "nations" were a western invention to divide and rule the great Arab population of the Middle East.
In fact, in those days, the term Palestinian was synonymous with Zionist and was actually applied to the Jewish settlers, particularly those who had come flooding in during the late 19th and early 20th century fleeing Czarist persecution and pogroms as well as the rising tide of anti-Semitism in Europe in the '30s. Most of the Jewish immigrants then and up until the UN partition in 1947 actually bought their land legally from the Effendis - who were only too happy to sell them the swamps and arid wastelands at bargain prices. These settlers worked 20-hour days to drain the swamps and irrigate the desert, turning the wastelands into lush farmland. This success contributed to the local Arab hatred against these Jews who seemed to be doing so much better than they were.
Even though the Jewish population was as powerless as the Muslim population under first the Ottoman rule and then the British rule, Muslims routinely murdered and terrorized Jews, not the ruling Turks or British (Google the 1929 Palestine riots and the brutal massacres of innocent Jews at Hebron and Safed). This hatred had nothing to do with Jewish crimes or oppression - merely the fact that these people were Jewish and alien to their Muslim neighbors.
continued...
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» RE: Blue Sun
Posted by: chomsky
» ...accurate history, my a**s !!!
Posted by: u2r1
» RE: ...accurate history, my a**s !!!
Posted by: armorypk
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BlueSun on May 13, 2009 2:08 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By 1947, tensions between the Jews and Arabs were so high that the British decided to abandon their Mandate and leave the area. The United Nations came up with a plan to carve the remaining portion of Palestine west of the Jordan River into six territories, three for the Jews and three for the Arabs. The plan, known generally as Partition, passed with over two-thirds of the nations voting for it.
Immediately after the Partition vote, Arabs formed into terrorist groups (fedayeen), and, bolstered by outsiders from surrounding Arab countries, and even some Nazis taking refuge in the area, began a campaign of murder, rape, and wholesale massacre in hopes of convincing the Jews not to accept the UN offer of a state.
The Jews, however, accepted the plan anddeclared their nation, naming it Israel. The Arabs, however, denounced the two-state solution and refused their half of the lands. They preferred the offer of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia. If they would refuse their half-a-loaf, their neighbors told them, the entire Arab world would descend on the brand new Jewish state and annihilate its people, leaving the local Arabs in possession of ALL of Palestine.
The Palestinian Arabs had to choose between two states living peacefully side by side, or a bloody massacre of Jews and the hope of getting it all. They chose blood over peace, and the current conflict was born.
Within hours of the birth of Israel, the armies of five Arab nations invaded the nascent country. Contrary to just about everybody in the world's expectations of a quick massacre, they lost the war, though Egypt remained in occupation of Gaza and Trans-Jordan occupied the West Bank, annexing it two years later.
For 19 years, from 1948 through 1967, Gaza, the West Bank, and Old Jerusalem were in Muslim hands, yet there was no movement to turn this land into a Palestinian Arab state. All focus was on destroying Israel and building the Palestinian Arab state there. It wasn't until the Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian armies began to line up on Israel's borders in 1967 and Israel launched a preemptive strike, defeating the Arabs in 6 days and ending up in possession of the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and all of the Sinai Peninsula (which they gave back to Egypt in exchange for a peace treaty).
Suddenly, with Jews replacing neighboring Arab states as the governing force in Gaza and the West Bank, the idea of a Palestinian state in these two areas was born. For 19 years, these territories were under Muslim control and the Palestinian Arabs did not demand a homeland there, nor did their neighbors offer the land to them. Only after Jews were on the land did it become sacred Palestinian Arab homeland.
By now, after over 60 years of non-stop bloodshed, terror, and massacres, both sides are filled with unquenchable hatred and have become callous to the suffering and misery they are inflicting on each other.
But, never forget that the Palestinians had two decades from 1948 to 1967 to claim their "homeland" peacefully, and turned instead to murder and terror to try to have it all. They made a tragically bad gamble and have never faced up to it.
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» RE: History continued...
Posted by: u2r1
» RE: History continued...
Posted by: chance garden
» BlueSun, I believe you are a genius and fine historian.
Posted by: Opinionator
» You've gotten a lot of things badly wrong
Posted by: Defenestrator
» You've gotten a lot of things badly wrong
Posted by: Defenestrator
» History edited...
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Garvagh on May 13, 2009 4:17 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Defenestrator on May 13, 2009 10:11 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hamas is willing to "recognize Israel's right to exist" within its borders (something Britain still hasn't done for the US since 1776, by the way)
More on that "generous offer"
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Posted by: Jdog on May 14, 2009 12:09 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel is the No. 1 welfare state...It receives more money from the US and Europe than any other state in the world
Israel is the No. 1 exporter of violence in the Middle East...Israel has been involved in more wars, and has initiated more conflicts, then any other modern state in the Middle East.
Israel is the No. 1 (and only) manufacturer of nuclear arms in the Middle East. Israel threatens it's neighbors with nuclear weapons while calling on the international community to prevent its neaighbors from acquiring the same materials.
Israel is a faux state invented by Jewish extremists from Europe. Prior to 1900, there were fewer than 100,000 Jews in Palestine (modern "Israel"), most of whom emmigated from Germany in the 1870's. These earlier arrivals purchased, not stole, the lands they occupied and lived peacefully with their Christian and Arab neighbors.
Israel is a failed state that will collapse as soon as the West shifts to a source of energy other than oil. Its "exports" are largely imports repackaged and sold abroad. It has little water and no natural resources to speak of.
When the Western economies no longer need oil, Israel's services will no longer be required and support for it will be withdrawn. When that happens, Israel will either disappear or finally join the civilized nations of the world.
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» RE: Israel is Number One!
Posted by: Aquinas
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Posted by: nonyio on May 15, 2009 1:32 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: nonyio read~And....
Posted by: viewsights
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on May 15, 2009 5:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The list of logical fallacies here is so long as to be impossible to innumerate in the space available, but it is exemplary.
I've copied this, and the next time I teach a class concerning propaganda, I'll use it. It's archetypical of the half-truth ploy of state-of-the-art propaganda.
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Posted by: weathered on May 13, 2009 2:56 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As long as Netanyahu/Likud choreograph their dark screenplay we'll all suffer. Tragically it never had to get like this.
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» But don't leave out the British who made them what they are...
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: 'a rain of rockets' and no mortalities.
Posted by: chomsky
Comments are closed-
Posted by: tmoselle on May 13, 2009 2:59 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what an incredibly fresh look at what is really happening in Palestine. as one who has worked and lived in Jerusalem for the past year I am so relieved to hear that reality is finally being given air in the US. now the question is will anyone give such news life.
what is happening to the Palestinian people is truly genocide. Palestinians (Muslim and Christian alike) are being eradicated from the land of their ancestors. lands are being stolen, businesses are being closed and their inventories consficated. those who are able to hold on to their land can not build on it because they are denied building permits while any Israeli can freely get such permits. Arabs who build anyway or who are in older homes before such permits were required are forced out of the homes and the home is destroyed. these barbarous acts drive many out of the country. if that is not ethnic cleansing, what is?
What has been the US governments response to such inhumanity? not much! Hopefully the new adminstration will hold the Israeli government to true international standards and make them responsive to United Nations resolutions which they have so far selectively ignored. Witholding some of the tens of billions of US dollars given to Israel could also create a pause in Israeli thinking but even if not it would certainly send a message to the thinking world that at least US intentions are finally striving for higher moral ground.
as for FOX Fable news??? well that is another story.
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» RE: TRM
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: US government response? Tens of billions of US dollars given to Israel
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: colinmeister on May 13, 2009 4:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ethnic cleansing has a bad ring to it when carried out anywhere else in the world, in fact several western countries took military action to curb it in the former Yugoslavia. The USA seems to think it is quite acceptable for Israel to practice ethnic cleansing, and their toadies in Europe seem unwilling to disagree.
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» RE: There is a name for Israel's tactics.
Posted by: logansafi
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Posted by: Stephen888oz on May 13, 2009 4:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: iris89 on May 13, 2009 4:55 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"No Israeli government would turn down a two-state solution in which the Palestinians accepted territorial compromise and genuine peace with a Jewish state," Krauthammer claims. "Barak offered precisely such a deal in 2000. … The Palestinian response (for those who have forgotten) was: No."
Yet, reality is all the land in Palestine rightly belongs to the Hebrews, to learn more about this in detail, go to:
Whose Land Is It? A Study of The Land of Palestine
Click Here
Wars should be eliminated and at present one religion is responsible for over 90% of the violence on earth as pointed out by an Australian newspaper as follows:
"Did you know that 90-95% of the conflicts in the world today are Muslims fighting non-muslims or each other? " [source - The Weekend Australian, November 26-27, 2005 AD]"
I am getting very tired of hearing Palestinians and other Ishmaelite crying crocodile tears and always trying to put the blame for what they do on others such as their conspiracy weavers tried to do about who did 9/11/2001 attack on the World Trade Center, etc. Screaming against what they call wrongful occupations when they are guilty of occupying Byzantine territory, Palestine which belongs to the Israelites [see Numbers the 34 th. Chapter in any Bible for proof of this, and their outright greed as they have over 98% of the Middle East, but still greedly want the less than 2% belonging to their sister tribe Israel] - its time we get real and put an end to this so the world can stop experiencing continuous Ishmaelite induced strife such as shooting rockets at Israel.
Solution, dissolve this false religion and rid the earth of at least 90% of the violence. But of course the politicians will not do what is needed since as Jeremiah 10:23 says, "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." (Authorized King James Bible; AV). To read detailed information, go to the following article:
When Should A Religion Be Dissolved In The Interest Of World Peace?
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Along with many other useful articles.
Iris89
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» Quoting the Bible,
Posted by: linecrosser
» RE: Occupiers - the Palestanians - Should Leave Occupied Lands
Posted by: Bjeorn
» JEEZUS H. CHRIST! I wish you religious wackos would go post
Posted by: Plexius2
» RE: Great points Plex
Posted by: marid
» RE:Religion causes more problems than anything else.
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» When Should A Religion Be Dissolved In The Interest Of World Peace?
Posted by: Karina
» Iris, you will always be ignorant
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Great Idea, Iris, let's dissolve Judaism, Christianity and Islam ...
Posted by: shanaza
» False Religion???
Posted by: Tweck9
» Organized Religion,
Posted by: linecrosser
» Your Religion Is Crap
Posted by: rgoalierob
» RE: Occupiers - the Palestanians - Should Leave Occupied Lands
Posted by: cmagda
» RE: Occupiers - the Palestanians - Should Leave Occupied Lands
Posted by: aichbe
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lloydmillerus on May 13, 2009 5:02 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Charters Matter
Posted by: aichbe
» RE: Charters Matter
Posted by: abstractedaway
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Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS on May 13, 2009 7:13 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Impeach them for what? Also.. your taxes were just cut, fool. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Impeach them for more wars and bailouts. And I'm still HUNGRY for MORE FOOD and MORE TAX CUTS ! MM !
Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS
» You didn't answer my question...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Impeach them for what? Also.. your taxes were just cut, fool. nm
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: Hey Doofus (how appropriate)
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: Hey Doofus (how appropriate)
Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS
» RE: Hey Doofus (how appropriate)
Posted by: linecrosser
» Oh, you voted for the tooth fairy, great choice!
Posted by: hardwroc
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Posted by: philosimphy on May 13, 2009 7:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on May 13, 2009 7:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As America has protected the Israeli's destructive behavior, instead of being an honest peace broker; the tacit approval has created the monster that is Israel. As many Americans are unaware of what really goes on over there, and the media only gives the Israeli side - never to mention the provocation that drove the Palestinians to respond - it is good to see the NY Times to at least pretend to give a more balanced view!
America needs to start divesting from Israel, this will not only get their attention, but will bring them to the negotiating table, really willing to make concessions! For all the Israeli "talk" about peace, it must be a peace on their terms - I think they need to be willing to go back to the 1967 borders - they are on "OCCUPIED TERRITORY" until then.
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Posted by: Ellie1 on May 13, 2009 8:01 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: BulldogRedeemer on May 13, 2009 8:41 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your article would have more merit if you acted like an adult and stop your name-calling. It is all the fault of those bad o' Israelis. Childish! The fact is that they are both at fault. Israel must recognize a congruous Palestinian State, not "islands of settlements"' and Hamas must OFFICIALLY recognize Israel's right to exist. Period! Oh yeah, a land swap that widens the narrows to at least 30 miles for land that would connect the West Bank to Gaza needs to be negotiated. Eight miles wide is crazy. That just begs for future mischief by the Palestinians.
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» RE: BulldogRedemer
Posted by: Tweck9
» RE: BulldogRedemer
Posted by: redstarwraith
» RE: BulldogRedemer
Posted by: chomsky
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on May 13, 2009 9:33 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Bang, bang Maxwell Silverhammer
Came down upon his head.
Bang, bang Maxwell Silverhammer
Made sure that he was dead"
Apologies to the Beatles.
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» RE: What's in a word
Posted by: Aquinas
» Krauthammer
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
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Posted by: chance garden on May 13, 2009 10:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do they feel they deserve to occupy land?
Seems like they wear a coat of many colors...
So what is a Jew...What makes them different than the rest of us?
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» RE: What exactly is a Jew?
Posted by: improperly_sedated
» RE: What exactly is a Jew?
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: What exactly is a Jew?
Posted by: Aquinas
» RE: What exactly is a Jew?
Posted by: chance garden
» Let's remember that they "won" that land in war.
Posted by: hardwroc
» RE: Let's remember that they "won" that land in war.
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: Let's remember that they "won" that land in war.
Posted by: Aquinas
» RE: Let's remember that they "won" that land in war.
Posted by: Jdog
» RE: Let's remember that they "won" that land in war.
Posted by: Aquinas
» There are many, many Jews and Israelis who work to end Israel's bad policies, here are some:
Posted by: Defenestrator
» Jews, for all intents and purposes, are like any other
Posted by: Jdog
» RE: Jews, for all intents and purposes, are like any other
Posted by: chance garden
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Posted by: rgoalierob on May 13, 2009 12:48 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
His ideas are rat-like as well.
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» RE: Krauthammer Is An Official Member of The Rat Family
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
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Posted by: fhughes on May 13, 2009 1:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: BlueSun on May 13, 2009 2:06 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, I am a fan of accurate history. And, unless you understand the history of how this conflict came to be, it is easy to be swayed one way or another by the extreme and overblown rhetoric of both sides.
For hundreds of years before WW I, the entire land of Palestine (which included Jordan) was under the rulership of the Ottoman Turkish empire. There were small numbers of Jews and Muslims living a hard-scrabble existence, but neither group really owned much, if any, of the land. The land was, in fact, the property of a dozen or so wealthy foreign landlords, called the Effendis, most of whom lived in what is now Turkey.
After WW I, the British and French ended up in control of the Middle East and, with the connivance of the League of Nations, carved up the land, making artificial borders and countries. Thus the land of Palestine (an ancient Latin word for the area) was born.
In 1922, the British cut up Palestine, giving away the larger part of it to their Arabian allies, the Hashemites, led by King Abdullah. The Hashemites had lost their power struggle with the House of Saud in Arabia, and the Brits simply handed them the major portion of Palestine, which they first named Trans-Jordan, and later just Jordan when they annexed the West Bank in 1950.
In the period between the two wars, the Arab/Muslim inhabitants of the area hotly denied that they were a separate ethnic identity. They claimed that they were, in fact, part of Greater Syria, with whom they shared strong linguistic, social, and ethnic ties. The ideas that the Arab residents of British Mandatory Palestine were a separate people, or that Palestine was a separate nation or homeland were loudly and angrily disputed by local Arab leaders. Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, and the other newly created "nations" were a western invention to divide and rule the great Arab population of the Middle East.
In fact, in those days, the term Palestinian was synonymous with Zionist and was actually applied to the Jewish settlers, particularly those who had come flooding in during the late 19th and early 20th century fleeing Czarist persecution and pogroms as well as the rising tide of anti-Semitism in Europe in the '30s. Most of the Jewish immigrants then and up until the UN partition in 1947 actually bought their land legally from the Effendis - who were only too happy to sell them the swamps and arid wastelands at bargain prices. These settlers worked 20-hour days to drain the swamps and irrigate the desert, turning the wastelands into lush farmland. This success contributed to the local Arab hatred against these Jews who seemed to be doing so much better than they were.
Even though the Jewish population was as powerless as the Muslim population under first the Ottoman rule and then the British rule, Muslims routinely murdered and terrorized Jews, not the ruling Turks or British (Google the 1929 Palestine riots and the brutal massacres of innocent Jews at Hebron and Safed). This hatred had nothing to do with Jewish crimes or oppression - merely the fact that these people were Jewish and alien to their Muslim neighbors.
continued...
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» RE: Blue Sun
Posted by: chomsky
» ...accurate history, my a**s !!!
Posted by: u2r1
» RE: ...accurate history, my a**s !!!
Posted by: armorypk
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BlueSun on May 13, 2009 2:08 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By 1947, tensions between the Jews and Arabs were so high that the British decided to abandon their Mandate and leave the area. The United Nations came up with a plan to carve the remaining portion of Palestine west of the Jordan River into six territories, three for the Jews and three for the Arabs. The plan, known generally as Partition, passed with over two-thirds of the nations voting for it.
Immediately after the Partition vote, Arabs formed into terrorist groups (fedayeen), and, bolstered by outsiders from surrounding Arab countries, and even some Nazis taking refuge in the area, began a campaign of murder, rape, and wholesale massacre in hopes of convincing the Jews not to accept the UN offer of a state.
The Jews, however, accepted the plan anddeclared their nation, naming it Israel. The Arabs, however, denounced the two-state solution and refused their half of the lands. They preferred the offer of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia. If they would refuse their half-a-loaf, their neighbors told them, the entire Arab world would descend on the brand new Jewish state and annihilate its people, leaving the local Arabs in possession of ALL of Palestine.
The Palestinian Arabs had to choose between two states living peacefully side by side, or a bloody massacre of Jews and the hope of getting it all. They chose blood over peace, and the current conflict was born.
Within hours of the birth of Israel, the armies of five Arab nations invaded the nascent country. Contrary to just about everybody in the world's expectations of a quick massacre, they lost the war, though Egypt remained in occupation of Gaza and Trans-Jordan occupied the West Bank, annexing it two years later.
For 19 years, from 1948 through 1967, Gaza, the West Bank, and Old Jerusalem were in Muslim hands, yet there was no movement to turn this land into a Palestinian Arab state. All focus was on destroying Israel and building the Palestinian Arab state there. It wasn't until the Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian armies began to line up on Israel's borders in 1967 and Israel launched a preemptive strike, defeating the Arabs in 6 days and ending up in possession of the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and all of the Sinai Peninsula (which they gave back to Egypt in exchange for a peace treaty).
Suddenly, with Jews replacing neighboring Arab states as the governing force in Gaza and the West Bank, the idea of a Palestinian state in these two areas was born. For 19 years, these territories were under Muslim control and the Palestinian Arabs did not demand a homeland there, nor did their neighbors offer the land to them. Only after Jews were on the land did it become sacred Palestinian Arab homeland.
By now, after over 60 years of non-stop bloodshed, terror, and massacres, both sides are filled with unquenchable hatred and have become callous to the suffering and misery they are inflicting on each other.
But, never forget that the Palestinians had two decades from 1948 to 1967 to claim their "homeland" peacefully, and turned instead to murder and terror to try to have it all. They made a tragically bad gamble and have never faced up to it.
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» RE: History continued...
Posted by: u2r1
» RE: History continued...
Posted by: chance garden
» BlueSun, I believe you are a genius and fine historian.
Posted by: Opinionator
» You've gotten a lot of things badly wrong
Posted by: Defenestrator
» You've gotten a lot of things badly wrong
Posted by: Defenestrator
» History edited...
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Garvagh on May 13, 2009 4:17 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Defenestrator on May 13, 2009 10:11 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hamas is willing to "recognize Israel's right to exist" within its borders (something Britain still hasn't done for the US since 1776, by the way)
More on that "generous offer"
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Posted by: Jdog on May 14, 2009 12:09 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel is the No. 1 welfare state...It receives more money from the US and Europe than any other state in the world
Israel is the No. 1 exporter of violence in the Middle East...Israel has been involved in more wars, and has initiated more conflicts, then any other modern state in the Middle East.
Israel is the No. 1 (and only) manufacturer of nuclear arms in the Middle East. Israel threatens it's neighbors with nuclear weapons while calling on the international community to prevent its neaighbors from acquiring the same materials.
Israel is a faux state invented by Jewish extremists from Europe. Prior to 1900, there were fewer than 100,000 Jews in Palestine (modern "Israel"), most of whom emmigated from Germany in the 1870's. These earlier arrivals purchased, not stole, the lands they occupied and lived peacefully with their Christian and Arab neighbors.
Israel is a failed state that will collapse as soon as the West shifts to a source of energy other than oil. Its "exports" are largely imports repackaged and sold abroad. It has little water and no natural resources to speak of.
When the Western economies no longer need oil, Israel's services will no longer be required and support for it will be withdrawn. When that happens, Israel will either disappear or finally join the civilized nations of the world.
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» RE: Israel is Number One!
Posted by: Aquinas
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Posted by: nonyio on May 15, 2009 1:32 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: nonyio read~And....
Posted by: viewsights
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on May 15, 2009 5:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The list of logical fallacies here is so long as to be impossible to innumerate in the space available, but it is exemplary.
I've copied this, and the next time I teach a class concerning propaganda, I'll use it. It's archetypical of the half-truth ploy of state-of-the-art propaganda.
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