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Want to Win the Immigration Debate? Start Talking About Illegal Jobs

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted May 1, 2008.


We must focus on the unregulated and substandard jobs that migrant workers fill, rather than on the individuals who work them.
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    Note: AlterNet is proud to announce the launch of our new Special Coverage area focusing on immigration issues -- our 14th in all. We hope to advance a new and more progressive way to approach immigration.

    Hopefully, we'll do so as a community. You can take part in the discussion by signing up for our free weekly immigration newsletter, or by bookmarking our new Immigration Special Coverage page, where we'll also have a dedicated immigration blog that will bring AlterNet readers the latest news and some lively debates on the issue.


    *****


    The often-overheated immigration debate is a distraction that draws attention from far-reaching problems facing American workers, particularly those on the bottom rungs of the economic ladder.

    Many immigrants' right advocates argue that newly arrived workers take jobs that Americans won't do. That's only partially true; many unauthorized immigrants fill nonunion jobs that are impossibly crappy, pay poverty wages and are rife with workplace violations, and they work those jobs side-by-side with millions of natives and legal residents. The reality is that there are not enough Americans who are willing or able to tolerate poverty wages and other workplace abuses.

    Understanding that dynamic can lead to a radically different approach to the issue -- to different methods of decreasing the number of unauthorized immigrants in the United States and of regulating the flow of new immigration in the future.

    Anarchy

    Those who advocate more law enforcement to tackle the immigration issue often invoke images of America descending into anarchy -- of a nation losing control of its borders and, therefore, its sovereignty. Many blame "Big Business," believing that the corporate world, through its congressional lackeys, has pushed to "open" the borders to all comers in order to keep wages low and assure a steady supply of cheap labor.

    That narrative is objectively false. For more than ten years, lawmakers from both parties have thrown billions of dollars into beefing up border security. In 1994, the United States spent just $550 million to guard its borders, but that figure quadrupled under Bill Clinton and then quadrupled again under Bush -- by 2005, it had increased to $7.3 billion, and most analysts expect the border security industry -- that's what it is, an industry -- to continue its strong growth.

    During the same period, the number of illegal entries into the United States also increased significantly. Pumping billions of dollars into more patrols and installing all manner of shiny new security gizmos along our 2,000-mile southern border has only resulted in an increase in arrests, detentions and deportations, and a nice, fat profit for Department of Homeland Security contractors. It has had just about zero effect on the number of immigrants coming into the country, largely because the incentives for them to come here have been left untouched.

    But the picture is reversed when you look at the enforcement of American workplace laws. While spending on immigration enforcement has gone through the roof, the resources allocated to enforcing overtime, minimum wage, workplace safety and other protections for workers have been cut and cut again.

    There is anarchy in America, there is lawlessness, but you'll find a lot more of it in the kitchen of your favorite diner or on that gardening crew cutting your lawn, for example, than along the Rio Grande.

    Consider the numbers. According to research conducted by NYU's Brennan Center for Justice (PDF), the number of workplaces that fell within the jurisdiction of the Department of Labor's wage and hour division more than doubled between 1975 and 2004, and the number of workers in those establishments increased by 55 percent. But during that period, the number of inspectors available to enforce basic labor standards declined by 14 percent, and the number of "compliance actions" the agency completed plummeted by more than a third.

    Unfortunately, there is little nationwide data on workplace violations, but we do have a large body of local and state studies, and all point to the same conclusion: workplace violations, especially at the lower end of the economy and among vulnerable populations, are simply rampant.

    Consider the findings of just a few of those studies, and bear in mind that a majority of the people represented in these studies are American citizens or legal residents:

    • A 2004 study of 200 workers conducted at multiple sites by Fairfax County, Va., officials found:
      • 54.6 percent getting paid less than agreed
      • 53.1 percent reported nonpayment for work done
      • 35.6 percent said they'd been victims of racial discrimination
      • 25.8 percent had been given bad checks
      • 16 percent reported that they'd been subject to violence on the job
      • 14.9 percent said they'd received threats from employers
    • A 2002 study of chicken processors found that six in 10 plants failed to pay workers overtime
    • In a 1998 study of restaurant workers in Los Angeles, researchers discovered that only 2 of the 43 establishments studied complied with basic labor laws.
    • A 2005 study of grape pickers in California's Central Valley found that half of all workers reported pay stubs that reflected less than the total number of hours worked, and half reported that they had not received all of the overtime pay they were owed.
    • A 1998 study looking at workers in the restaurant, garment, hotel and motel industries -- all occupations with large numbers of unauthorized workers -- found that only one in 20 restaurants complied with minimum wage laws. Only a third of hotels and motels were in compliance, as were only four of ten shops in the garment industry.


    Similar findings have been repeated in study after study. And while these illegal jobs appear to be clustered in industries in which many unauthorized workers toil, millions of American citizens work those same jobs and are also victims of widespread employer abuses. According to one 2003 study, the percentage of workers being ripped off via minimum wage violations is not that much lower for natives than it is for immigrants -- 13 percent versus 9 percent among women and 9 percent versus 6 percent among men.

    Obsession -- it's always all about the immigrants

    Every unauthorized immigrant works an illegal job, by definition. But lacking effective legal or social protections, many unauthorized immigrants work jobs that also violate minimum wage laws, occupational safety and health regulations, overtime laws, etc. Others work jobs that are substandard -- dangerous, humiliating or disgusting -- or jobs that pay poverty wages. Employers also know that it's exceptionally easy to keep undocumented workers from organizing -- if they attempt to do so, the boss needs only to call in "La Migra" and fire any pro-union workers who lack valid papers (or have them deported).

    Yet most of the focus of the immigration debate in this country has been on the immigrants themselves -- especially unauthorized immigrants. One could easily conclude from watching a typical screaming heads segment about immigration policy on CNN that "illegal immigrants" exist in a vacuum. Very little attention is paid to the other side of the transaction -- the incentives that American companies and households have to hire an unauthorized worker over a citizen.

    Even the highly publicized immigration raids that the Bush administration has launched in recent years barely touch the demand side. Most people probably assume that when a goon squad of ICE agents raids a workplace and carts off dozens of workers in handcuffs, the employers are also being punished. But as the Washington Post noted, while "federal immigration authorities arrested nearly four times as many people at workplaces in 2007 as they did in 2005 ... only 92 owners, supervisors or hiring officials were arrested in an economy that includes 6 million companies that employ more than 7 million unauthorized workers. Only 17 firms faced criminal fines or other forfeitures." Those raids devastate immigrant families, but they represent little more than an inconvenience to employers, who have little incentive to improve working conditions when they can hire a new work force that's just as easy to exploit.

    Illegal immigrants sell their labor on a black market, a market similar in many ways to those for other illicit goods and services -- the drug trade being a good example. The sellers' incentives are well-understood: The lion's share of those who have moved to the United States in the past decade are economic refugees, fleeing economies back home that don't offer them an opportunity to live a minimally dignified life. Human traffickers, who can realize enormous profits shipping people across national boundaries, provide for the market; their incentives, again, are well-understood.

    The buyers, of course, are Americans, and not just corporate America. Middle-class households and many small firms use illegal labor, but their side of the transactions goes largely undiscussed.

    Without looking at both sides of the coin -- at the demand as well as the supply -- it's virtually impossible to arrive at a reform agenda that has a chance of resulting in an effective, humane and sustainable system of immigration control.

    The hazards of supply-side immigration control

    Law enforcement that focuses primarily on the supply side has proven to be remarkably ineffective when it comes to other "gray" and "black" markets. While Elliott Ness was busting up Al Capone's liquor network, America went into the speakeasies and kept drinking. We've invested hundreds of billions of dollars in a 30-year war on drugs, but illegal drugs are widely available in big cities and small towns alike. They call prostitution the "oldest profession"; it's illegal in every state except for Nevada and Rhode Island, but a quick perusal for "escorts" and "massages" in the phone book of any American community will reveal that the industry is alive and well.

    Those who hire immigrant laborers not only have huge financial incentives to do so but also believe they're committing a "victimless crime," much like those who visit prostitutes, take illegal drugs or who drank liquor during Prohibition. On the other hand, the workers who fill those jobs -- native and foreign born alike -- do so out of desperation.

    Law enforcement "crackdowns" can lead to short-term results in these kinds of shadowy markets. They can push the markets further underground, or push sellers and buyers out of a given neighborhood or city. What they have failed to do, consistently, is provide any real and lasting results over the long-term.

    The enforcement approach also leads to some ugly and often unintended consequences -- families being separated, employers becoming nervous about hiring perfectly legal workers who look like they might not be and people being detained for lengthy periods of time without the kind of legal protections we like to believe is the bedrock of American jurisprudence. There have even been instances -- rare but not isolated -- in which American citizens have been deported to countries where they've never set foot before because they couldn't provide adequate proof of citizenship.

    Immigration control at the root level

    An unregulated sector of the economy, rife with illegal jobs, represents the largely unexamined "pull factor" for much of the current wave of immigration to the United States. Most recent immigrants are economic refugees seeking jobs that essentially fall in between what's available in their native countries and the kind of jobs one would expect to find in a highly advanced economy. They also tend to be jobs that can't be easily outsourced to countries with an abundance of cheap labor.

    A good example of these kinds of jobs can be found in New York City, where the cost of living is among the highest in the country. A report in Crain's New York Business found that in underregulated New York restaurants, green grocers, retail corner laundries and private households, "typically, workers will be quoted a flat weekly salary of $300 and then have to work 60 hours a week, receiving an effective of wage of $5 an hour with no provision for overtime." New York State's minimum wage is $7.15 per hour, and federal and state law require overtime pay for all hours worked over 40 per week at a rate of 1.5 times the base salary.

    In order to create a sustainable model for immigration control, we need to look at decreasing the demand for workers who are willing to fill those jobs. That means breaking Americans' addiction to exploitable labor. As long as there are $5-per-hour jobs in New York City that few natives can afford to work while there are millions of workers who don't have a job that pays a fraction of that in poorer countries, we'll have a large number of people who want to migrate to our shores. As long as our immigration system doesn't permit enough of them to migrate legally, we'll have an "illegal immigration problem." It's simply the law of supply and demand at work.

    Yet, it's not true that all unauthorized immigrants work those kinds of jobs. There's no question that employers are sometimes legitimately unable to find citizens or legal residents to fill even decent jobs. That's especially true in many rural communities, where young people tend to take off for the big city and the population is aging and declining. Last fall I spoke with Oklahoma State Sen. Harry Coates soon after his state passed one of the most restrictive immigration laws in the nation. Employers in Oklahoma weren't just having problems filling low-paying "McJobs," he told me. "In the oil fields, they're paying $18 to $20 per hour to start," he said, "but they can't find enough willing workers to fill the jobs. We've told our young people to work with their minds, not with their hands." Oklahoma's unemployment rate of 3 percent is the fourth-lowest in the United States according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. "We've shot ourselves in the foot by running off willing workers for willing employers," Coates said.

    Progressive immigration and workplace reform would focus our finite enforcement resources on cleaning up the bottom end of the labor market -- at the jobs that bring people to our shores, rather than on the immigrants who work them. Guaranteeing workers -- immigrant and native alike -- the right to organize and enforcing wage and overtime laws would equalize the price of hiring unauthorized and legal workers, and would go a long way towards addressing the demand for illegal labor without the ugliness that our current approach entails.

    Once the goal of eliminating substandard and often illegal jobs -- un-American jobs -- from the U.S. workplace is established, then there's likely to be little resistance to new workers coming into the work force to fill jobs that can't be staffed by Americans. Public opinion research shows that when people perceive the economy to be functioning well for them, much of the anxiety over immigration disappears.

    It's the way to build a humane and self-regulating system. Immigration researchers talk about the effect of "transnational social networks" on migration -- a fancy way to describe communities that spill across international borders. Such networks exist between the United States and the countries that account for the lion's share of new immigration, and researchers have found that they are highly effective mechanisms for communicating information about job markets, legal environments and other factors that people weigh when deciding whether (and to where) they might emigrate. Decreasing the pool of unregulated jobs available to undocumented workers and making it less difficult to migrate here legally will result in less incentive to bypass the system, and the message will get around.

    The Devil is in the details when it comes to any public policy, but broadly speaking, the approach has to be built on four pillars:

    • Workplace enforcement, including protecting the right to organize and requiring employers to pay living wages and overtime
    • A legalization process for workers who don't have valid papers, have no record of violent criminal activity, and can prove they've paid their taxes and meet certain other requirements
    • Repairing a dysfunctional immigration system and expanding the legal avenues for immigrants needed to meet the demand for those jobs -- livable, legal jobs -- that can't be filled by natives alone
    • Finally, immigration enforcement


    Without the first pillar, many Americans will continue to reject the idea that immigrants take jobs Americans don't want -- and rightly so.

    Wedges, pivot points, and the limits of the other side's aspirations

    Not only does a progressive, demand-side approach offer the best hope for a sustainable model of immigration control -- a win-win model for native and foreign-born workers alike -- it also has the potential to be a political game-changer, redrawing the lines of the debate in a way that unites progressives and divides the corporate Right from the GOP's culturally insular base.

    Conservatives have used the issue of immigration to discuss issues that serve them well. It's been a "pivot point" -- a topic of intense public interest that they've then turned to an issue that advances their larger worldview. Much of their analysis has focused on the perceived "dangers" associated with outsiders and people of color and the need for an expansion of the state's security apparatus. Illegal immigration has been framed as a national security issue, an issue of terrorism prevention, a result of Roe v. Wade -- solid ground for the American Right.

    Focusing on illegal jobs rather than the workers who fill them can provide progressives with a similar opportunity -- it can be a pivot point leading to a discussion of the very real pain that millions of American workers are feeling after 30 years of corporate-sponsored trickle-down voodoo economics. This is comfortable ground for progressives, who, traditionally, have been at their best when fighting for economic fairness for the little guy.

    Immigration has become an acrimonious "wedge" issue for both of America's major parties, dividing traditional constituencies. But it's an issue that divides Republicans more than Democrats; the GOP's conservative base is fired up with xenophobia, while its traditional big-business side both values the cheap labor immigrants provide, and, consisting mostly of sophisticated urban elites, lacks the visceral hatred for immigrants that many in the party's base display.

    On the Democratic side, divisions also exist, but they've been more muted. Comprehensive immigration and workplace reform would allow progressive reformers to dominate the populist side of the debate, and that can only deepen the divide within the GOP and leave immigration hard-liners with only angry, exaggerated arguments -- cultural arguments -- on the table. That, in turn, would go a long way towards marginalizing their views in the mainstream discourse over immigration.

    The approach would also fundamentally redefine the debate, moving from pro- versus anti-immigrant (or illegal immigrant, if you prefer) to the question of how we deal with the issue.

    And, because it's an approach that would necessarily rely on an increase in law enforcement, it also neutralizes the anti-immigration movement's best argument. Instead of progressives being forced to effectively defend "law-breakers," the question becomes: What kind of enforcement do we want to pursue, and to what end do we use our finite enforcement resources?

    And, because immigration hard-liners in and out of Congress by and large oppose minimum wage increases, stronger work force protections, anti-union-busting measures, etc., it can only highlight the fact that while they may have many things in mind when they beat their breasts over the issue of immigration, the economic health of American workers is not one of them.

    And that brings us to the most powerful argument that a progressive demand-side approach to immigration control offers: the limits of the other side's aspirations. At the end of the day, even if advocates of an enforcement-heavy approach were to get everything they wanted, the best they could offer is the promise that every citizen who is sufficiently desperate to take a crappy, strenuous or demeaning job that pays a poverty wage will be able to find one.

    That's it, the sum total of their aspirations, and that's an argument that progressives would do well to embrace in every discussion of the immigration issue.

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Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.

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View:
Supply-side
Posted by: Joshua Holland on May 1, 2008 1:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's a bit more here.

JH

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Ya think?
Posted by: kepstein7777 on May 1, 2008 4:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Alternet finally fixes these articles some time next week, this one probably won't matter, because the headline says it all. You won't win the debate, but at least you'll be spot-on.

Here in America, we like to kick people who are down. And by "we", I include many of those who, ironically, are down there themselves--in this case, a lot of anti-immigrant rednecks.

In that context, the "debate" is not really how to solve the immigration problem--which this article does in two sentences--but who to kick. And you can bet your cojones it will be some poor amigo caught in the middle of it, rather than the people behind it, or the people getting rich from it.

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» RE: Ya think? Posted by: Paul1939
Industries slave labor
Posted by: Purple Girl on May 1, 2008 4:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've worked in the Horse industry for years. I had to compete not on the basis of my skill & knowledge with illegal workers- but how badly I was willing to be treated. Granted I have seen employers who treat all their employee well- bu ttha tis the execption to the 'rule'. also the 'live stock ' industry is not for those who only want to work from 8-5, M-F. Wrong industry, Wrong Mind set. animals require committment.
However when the humans health, welfare and living conditions rank 2nd to the animals- something is seriously wrong.This type of work requires a great deal of dedication, long hours and late night responsiblities. But when employers fail to respect what an employee has already given to the care of the animals (their Product) and beings using them in every other manner they may need (including as Domestic servants) one must ask who is truely the criminal? I have seen illegals paid dirt wages,provided inadequate housing, worked weeks without time off, not provided transportation to even get food, not assisted in health care issues (told to see Me for care-I was told to give a tetanus injection to an American Developemental disabled worker- I flately refused!)The AG business must be held responisble for their treatment of Workers regardless of origin, mental ability and legal status. I did not leave because Teh illegal under cut my job- I left becasue I refuse to be treated like they were treating these 'caught between a rock & a hard place' employees (Indentured Slaves). WE need anyone who has the dedication to work in AG, but we can not allow employers to exploit them.there ae far too few willing to do such work these days. I love Ag Work, and hope to start my own little biz- but my goal is to appreciate all those who are willing to do such a difficult and strenuous Profession with great working conditions and a living wage. Real heart is Priceless!

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Good News: U.S. Hispanic Population Surpasses 45 Million
Posted by: Mexitli on May 1, 2008 5:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We now make up 15% of the U.S. population.

Still, there are many things that bother me. Obviously, most of us "Hispanics" are MEXICANS.

But most Mexicans havent had a Spanish ancestor in 200, 300, 400 or even 500 years. Most of us have never had any Spanish ancestor, period.

That's why we look like Pedro the dishwasher, yet we face the humiliation of being labled Hispanic and or Latino. These are unwanted labels.

What we are is Mexica, Maya, Zapotec, Mixtec and numerous other INDIGENOUS peoples.

Now that that's out of the way, my next point is that in the U.S. there are too many laws.

American workers are treated like children. There is no right of contract between employer and employee.

The small businessman/ contractor has little chance of competing if he uses American workers.

They aren't as productive and want high wages.

You have to be worth your salt. American workers are lackadaisical, uninterested and like to chew the fat.

That fat is MY food. I've been in construction all my life. I've been a heating and air conditioning since 1992. I'm 48. Chicano.

Mexicans work harder. Mexicans are more productive.

We need more Mexicanos :)

It's good for the economy.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» No Taxes? Posted by: Mexitli
» A Red-Neck Responds Posted by: robbie.seal
» RE: A Red-Neck Responds Posted by: Mexitli
» RE: A Red-Neck Responds Posted by: e rice
» RE: A Red-Neck Responds Posted by: outsideagitator
» Funny how at Posted by: Mexitli
» I am in my own home Posted by: Mexitli
» RE: I am in my own home Posted by: desidid
Let's STOP the Conflation. It's not Honest.
Posted by: Phred42 on May 1, 2008 5:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This discussion will remain as dishonest as anything the Reich can put out if we continue with this BS tactic of conflating legal immigration with illegal invasion or as best: criminal trespass.

"IMMIGRATION" is a legally defined process.

If you successfully go through that process, and you are in this country based on completing that process, you are an immigrant. If you DO NOT go through and successfully complete that legally defined process, and you are in this country, you are NOT an Immigrant. You are either a tourist (which has it's own legally defined set of parameters) or a Criminal. You do not get to Steal a Citizenship. And Americans Do not OWE you a living.

No one gets to move to this country simply because they want to. Any sovereign Nation has the right and obligation to determine who enters and resides within it's borders. There is no global RIGHT to citizenship in America.

If your intent is to completely remove boarders than have THAT discussion - openly.

Stop conflating Immigration with criminal activity. They ain't the same thing.

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Let's see
Posted by: chlamor on May 1, 2008 5:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"We" stole half of Mexico by armed force -- the nice parts with rich deposits of gold and silver (and, as it turned out, oil -- though "we" didn't actually recognize that at the time.)

"We" made sure that "our" influence over Latin America was such that wealth would be steadily transferred from their countries to ours. "We" sent the Marines to Nicaragua, Haiti, & Guatemala often enough to insure that life in those countries would be a permanent living hell for most of the inhabitants. "We" imposed military dictatorships in almost every Central & South American country, stunting the aspirations of their people, & imposing conditions from which some of those countries will never recover. (So if some of the people want to escape from the living conditions in those countries, "we" had very much to do with creating those conditions.)

Interestingly, "we" started doing all this at the same time that "we" were exterminating the indigenous people here, AND using black slaves from Africa. What a loveable, righteous people "we" are, here in the "Land of the Free"!!

To read between the lines of today's American media treatment of the issue, the real "controversy" today is not between decent humane treatment for immigrants; and harassment by racists, vigilantes, and police. It's between two factions of rightwing opinion: should immigrants be exploited for their cheap labor (and their delightful inability to defend themselves), or should racism and xenophobia be pandered to, by encouraging nutcases like the Minutemen, and other "red blooded Amurrikans" who think it's exciting to organize mobs to defend white supremacy? This is a serious "issue" for people like Bush, who is doubtless torn, & genuinely sympathetic to both sides.

"We" came here somewhere in the early 1600s. "We" found this Promised Land, rich beyond imagination with fresh water and fertile earth and abundant game and timber for the felling. And to "our" further delight, it was largely uninhabited--if "we" didn't count the Red Ones.

"We" didn't see too many of them at first; they avoided our noise and the smoke from our fires, which were always too big. But soon enough, "we" were here in such numbers that they couldn't go around us anymore.

"We" were shocked--SHOCKED, I tell ya--that there were Savages in "our" Promised Land! So "we" set about exterminating them. "We" killed them whenever "we" saw them, "we" drove them from their land and their homes, "we" slaughtered their food supply and left the buffalo bodies to rot in the sun by the hundreds of acres. "We" gave them blankets full of smallpox, murdered their children and raped their women before "we" murdered them as well. "We" rounded them up into concentration camps and ate their food while they starved. "We" made them cut their hair, wear britches and beat them to death if they wouldn't speak "our" language.

"We" stole a whole fucking continent from them and paid them in Genocide.

And now "we're" worried about Illegal Immigration?

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» RE: Let's see Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Let's see Posted by: chlamor
» RE: Let's see Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Hey, Knucklehead... Posted by: robbie.seal
» RE: Hey, Knucklehead... Posted by: chlamor
» What is a propaganist? Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» Clap! Clap! Clap! Posted by: sophia68
» 'We' didnt do that Posted by: cyr3n
» RE: 'We' didnt do that Posted by: chlamor
» RE: Let's see Posted by: trewqwert
» Chlamor is completely right! Posted by: oceanwaves99999
» You are sooooo right!!!! Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: You are sooooo right!!!! Posted by: oceanwaves99999
» RE: You are sooooo right!!!! Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: You are sooooo right!!!! Posted by: oceanwaves99999
» RE: You are sooooo right!!!! Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» To Illiteratilumen................ Posted by: oceanwaves99999
» To pfeifer999.................. Posted by: oceanwaves99999
» RE: To pfeifer999.................. Posted by: oceanwaves99999
» RE: To pfeifer999.................. Posted by: oceanwaves99999
» RE: Let's see Posted by: desidid
Food Prices
Posted by: dockboy on May 1, 2008 6:04 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you think food prices are high now, wait until you have to start paying illegals minimum wage, per this article's solution.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Food Prices Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Food Prices Posted by: desidid
» RE: Food Prices Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Food Prices Posted by: antiapathy
until america can really own it racist ways......
Posted by: The Big Raven on May 1, 2008 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are doomed!
You can not build anything lasting on stolen foundations, even if you can get the majority of humans to bury thier colective heads in the sands of made up history. The new war cry is "NO MORE OF THIS MASTER WHITE RACE BULLSHIT"
To even have jobs that encourage people to come here without invitation and then put them down for wanting to better thier lives is perverves to say the least.
I wish that people would stay in thier own lands (not the lands they have claimed by some god ie:MANFESTED DESTINY)and solve thier own problems. We all deserve a homeland but not on the backs of others.
You have a peace filled day

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» To The big Raven. Posted by: oceanwaves99999
Don't deflect the Illegal Alien Issue
Posted by: HBoyer on May 1, 2008 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Illegal Aliens cost tax payers billions of dollars every year. Business reap billions of dollars from hiring Illegal Aliens.

The greedy rich will always want slave or peasant labor. They have had it for thousands of years and will find ways to keep dirt cheap labor and servants.

In America it started with indebted servants, the wealthy paying passage for poor people to come to America and then work as servants for many years.

Then even cheaper workers came along, slaves from Africa. The rich and greedy had a wonderful time in America.

Then in the sixties Civil rights came along.

No more cheap servants for the rich and greedy.

But look south! Mexico still has servants. 50% of Mexico lives in poverty.

Now USA has 20 million Illegal Aliens, the government and two political parties will never prosecute the rich and greedy for working Illegal Alien peasants.

So expel the Illegal Aliens and the rich and greedy will revolt and change American into a Fascist STATE.

Hey we are almost there now.

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Great article. I've been saying the same thing for years.
Posted by: antiapathy on May 1, 2008 7:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not that my congressman or anybody who could do something about it ever listens...

One thing I've always wondered about are the "legal" jobs that are exempt from the minimum wage. Mostly agricultural jobs, I believe. How is that even possible, and why do we permit it?

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Immigration Issue is About Increasing US Population to 500M
Posted by: jyork on May 1, 2008 7:57 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..... Increasing US Population to 500 Million....

Before illegal immigration there was another truth: the US population was dropping. It was dropping significantly. Once the replacement rate goes beneath 2.1 (babies born to a woman) then the population drops. And as that replacement rate itself drops to, say, 1.8 or 1.6, then the overall population really drops quite quickly.

That same measure of population replacement has been dropping in Japan, all of Europe, and the western world.

It would mean that in 25 years the population of all of Europe would drop by at least 100 million and in the US by about 75 million as well or more. The start off point for measuring this would have been a 200 million US population (before all illegal immigration had started at the rate it has been going) and then measure downward from that point. The US stands now at around 300 million and gaining quickly on the goal of 500 million.

The plan was not to allow this happen. You can easily imagine what a US population of 150 million in 2025 would mean to overall US economic dominance. And the same for a European drop of at least 100 million.

To offset this, the government along with mega-corporate-America put into practice the illegal immigration of millions of people. In our case those people come from south of our border, and in Europe's case they come predominantly from Islamic immigration (also illegal). The last major immigration event happened around the turn of the century (early 1900's) where the US just allowed about 65 million people to immigrate into the US from Europe. At that time, it was the largest single immigration movement of people in all of history. It was done then to increase the market for products in the US.

Illegal immigration has to be "illegal" because were it "legal" it would be a stated government policy. Keeping it un-stated and under wraps meant that the policy had to involve "illegal" immigration. It is happening both here and in Europe. Not being able to control the borders of a country is a deliberate plan, not an accident and not incompetance.

To verify this for yourself read the book called: "Fewer" by Ben Wattenberg who is a population demographer.

To maintain US and European economic superiority it was necessary to increase the US population to 500 million in the next 25-35 years. We are well on the way to accomplishing this.

Surrounding this plan is a wide variety of media-junk-issues which derail anyone's ability to think clearly and to see what the underlying plan is actually about. The goal of this plan is to create a "condition on the ground" that cannot be reversed.

You will have to decide what having 500 million people in the US means... to highways, total automobiles on the road, to social services, to health care costs, to interest paid on credit cards and mortgages, and all the other huge impacts there will be to doubling the population of the US (and Europe as well). The impact on the environment and on living conditions is enormous. Doing this is a very big event.

Illegal immigration is not about anything, anything at all, that appears in the media including Alternet. While all of those issues are relevant to various people, those issues do not address the overall or bigger issue which is the planned goal of increasing the US population to 500 million in the next 25 to 35 years.

There is not necessarily anything wrong with doing this except that it is done in secrecy. That is what makes it wrong. The citizens of a country should decide this issue openly. Were it an open discussion, and a choice put to citizen voters, I think you can easily imagine the outcome.

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» Exceptional post Posted by: Mexitli
» Comment On The Dark Side Posted by: jyork
» RE: right on the issue Posted by: Spot
» RE: right on the issue Posted by: oceanwaves99999
Holland is an elitist.
Posted by: HughScott on May 1, 2008 8:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Josh ends his pot-stirring piece with the following nose-in-the-air, high & mighty statement:

"The best they [anti-illegal immigrant proponents] could offer is the promise that every citizen who is sufficiently desperate to take a crappy, strenuous or demeaning job that pays a poverty wage will be able to find one."

Assume Holland is right about people "sufficiently desperate to take a crappy, strenuous or demeaning job that pays a poverty wage."

Why do such jobs pay poverty wages? Could it be there are enough illegal aliens crossing our southern border to fill the demand? After all, someone has to clean toilets in our society.

So tell me,Josh, why can't every American be paid a decent wage?

Because of greedy employers who hire desperate illegal aliens. It's that simple.

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» Hughe Scott is an elitist. Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Adding ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Reread the article Posted by: Joshua Holland
» I'll settle this Posted by: Illiteratilumen
Don't forget about the ILLEGAL Cubans. They're given "free" statuses regardless.
Posted by: maxpayne on May 1, 2008 8:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You'll notice a glaring difference in Florida. If the immigrant is Haitian, unless he or she is in for a slave labor job, they're over-scrutinized and sent back. Cuban immigrants on the other hand, 70% of which enter the state ILLEGALLY, are automatically given "legal" status no matter how badly they disqualify. Of course, this is probably designed to keep the so-called "anti-Castro anger" vote simmering all the while the pols and business/monied elites keep laughing their way to the bank. As a matter of fact, my former roommate's wife who used to live in Northern Florida gave a report of the way the rednecks who scream "commies, commies" and yet they don't mind losing their jobs to ILLEGALS, most of whom are Cuban.

P.S.: Don't be surprised when Cuban immigrants throughout Florida stay completely silent even as the other immigrants protest.

Also, I'm not referring to Cuban immigrants who actually came here legally and followed the rules like everyone else.

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Send it to Ralph Nader..!
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on May 1, 2008 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I may send mine or some of it to Ralph Nader then thank The White House and Congress for enabling me to do so..!

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Everyone Else Can't Live Here
Posted by: Brez on May 1, 2008 9:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not about Latinos. It's about jobs, whether they are being taken by Latins, Asians, Indians, Canadians, or any other group of less fortunates, they should go to American citizens or legal immigrants. Make it a felony to employ illegal aliens and watch things change. Reserve services for citizens and LEGAL visitors and watch things change. We don't have to criminalize illegals - they will go home, then they can fix their own country. We can even provide bus or airplane tickets on request.

As far as idiots like Joe Baca and his bunch of racist Congressmen, has anyone pointed out that the people hurt most by illegal immigration are the LEGAL immigrants trying to get a start, as well as the poor, the young, and especially the minorities? Not that facts and logic would do any good to those politicians who pander to whatever base they think will keep them in their cushy jobs.

There are no jobs Americans won't do. Who do you think hauls off your garbage? And for a living wage, too! If we didn't have illegals driving down entry level wages, maybe the Republicans who are sucessfully turning America into a two-class society would have to pay a proper (at least a minimum) wage. Yeah, your lettuce might cost a quarter more - too bad.

And as far as all the Pollyannas and Popes who want us to be "charitable," we are already the most liberal, welcoming, open country in the world. Just try immigrating to Japan. The god-botherers need to practice religion, not politics. After all, wasn't it those Right Wing Christian Crazies (as opposed to non-crazy Christians, ie. Democrats) that got Bush & the neocons elected?

Rant ends.

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» RE: veryone Else Can't Live Here Posted by: constantreader
American elitism
Posted by: pennywatkins on May 1, 2008 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Righton! Talking about "illegal immigrants" is an obfuscation that prevents dialog about the real issues behind the immigration "problem."

1. As other commentators have noted, America's economic success has, from the beginning, required exploitation of people we view as "inferior"--Native Americans and African slaves are the most salient examples. We cannot maintain our lifestyle without exploiting other people. If we paid a fair and livable wage to everyone who produces goods or provides services that we use, we would not be able to afford those goods and services.

2. The idea that we "need" illegal immigrants to do the work that Americans won't do is incredibly elitist. We Americans honestly believe we are better than other people. We believe we have the inherent right to choose work that we enjoy or work that fulfills us. We feel we have the right to reject crappy jobs simply because they are crappy. The assumption behind that rejection is that someone else--someone less deserving than us--will do that work.

3. There is the issue of a "fair and livable wage." And minimum wage is not a livable wage. We exploit American workers, too.

Our current reality is a rapidly changing global economy where roughly half the population live in extreme poverty, where there are food riots and where large groups of people migrate from one country to another to find food, water and work. That reality does not support American hubris and it does not support the acquisitive American lifestyle. We could wake up to that reality, humble ourselves and join the rest of humanity. We could choose to moderate our lifestyle, do work that other humans do and work to ensure that all humans have basic necessities.

Unfortunately, it's unlikely that we will. The rest of the world will not allow us to continue to exploit it for very much longer. Already, our economy is collapsing under the weight of our greed in the housing market. Whether we choose it or not, we will join the rest of humanity. We will be forced to moderate our lifestyles until they resemble those of our 3rd world sisters. And we will be forced to take crappy jobs in order to keep body and soul together--just like everybody else.

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Plight of the working man
Posted by: willymack on May 1, 2008 9:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The immigration issue is, as is true of many other issues, a complex one, but with one overriding source, and that's GREED. Allow me to explain. I live only a block from farm property. Most of the time, alphalfa hay is grown there, but sometimes red wheat, potatoes (the best in the world), and even sugar beets. I take my dog there so he can run free and terrorize the ducks in the irrigation ditch, and dig up gophers, which he eats. I often encounter a man I've seen there for about nine years, doing farm work. He's Mexican and knows a little English, and I have a (very) limited knowlege of Spanish. Together, we can make ourselves understood. One day, upon seeing this man, I greeted him with "buenas tardes" he replied in like manner, to which I said "como se esta, hoy?". He replied something like "oh, cada dia, mucho trabajo, poco dinero. Cada ano, el dinero es lo mismo" (I didn't claim to be an expert on Spanish, rememember?) I asked "se tiene una carta verde?, to which he emphatically said "no carta verde"! No green card. He said it as if I asked him if he had the plague. I then asked "Quantos anos se aqui?", to whish he replied "viente dos". Twenty two years! Twenty two years without a green card, during which time he could've been rounded up and deported. Twenty two years away from family and friends in Oaxaca state, freezing his ass off in the harsh high desert climate here, having made the heartbreaking decision to forsake a normal home life for the sake of his family. How can anyone not like a man of such integrity and devotion, not to mention a sunny disposition and a great sense of humor? How can anyone overlook the all-consuming greed of those who take advantage of the plight of so many people whose only desire is to get out of life what we ALL want? The point of attack should be at the employers who exploit these unfortunates, not the workers, themselves.

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» RE: Plight of the working man Posted by: richholland
NAFTA? Free Trade?
Posted by: CatDad on May 1, 2008 9:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The flood of illegals is a direct result decimation of the Mexico's agricultural sector by NAFTA....Free trade deals are always catastrophic for the indigenous agriculture sectors of 2nd/3rd world nations..... Mexicans are in a unique position to literally walk away from the problem....You can't blame the displaced Mexicans any more than you can blame the Okies for fleeing the dust bowl for California in the 30s....People want to live and provide food/shelter for themselves and their family.....

Faux populists like Lou Dobss provide a smoke screen for the nation's ruling elite....It's blame the victims (read: Mexican's)....Until the trade issue is addressed...this problem will never be solved

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» Thanks CatDad Posted by: marid
Agree with the focus - differ on the methods
Posted by: NthnBrazil on May 1, 2008 9:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think focusing on the demand side of the equation for a change is exactly what we need to do, but I'd rather see enforcement as the main tactic. If it becomes economically untenable to hire undocumented workers due to better tracking of bogus/re-used SSN's and punitive fines on employers, the problem will resolve itself.

The side-effect of this is that prices will rise on some food and food service due to increased labor costs and farms/restaurants that can't function in that new economic regime will fold. While unforunate, it is unavoidable in either case once the low-cost labor force is removed either by enforcement or organized labor.

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» What is "the problem"? Posted by: Rune
Is illegal the best way to think about this?
Posted by: emhaas on May 1, 2008 10:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua,

Great and necessary article!
This is a difficult topic for progressives and I wonder if changing from "illegal immigrants" to "illegal jobs" or "illegal employers" is enough of a change? Are we not still in an illegal, law and order frame, which puts security ahead of worker protection and empowerment and the concepts of shared prosperity?

It's a tough question.
I examined this in a paper for the Rockridge Institute, called "To Respect and Protect: Expanding the Discourse on Immigration." Here's a link (http://tinyurl.com/57lhyt)

From a framing perspective, I think we need to include employer sanctions as key part of a larger network of worker protections that lead to livable jobs, but think the frame should be put at a higher level to "shared prosperity" because "illegal" even when it is linked to employers keeps us in the "security against criminal activity--force is the response" frame.


Eric

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All sides seem to assume that North-South stratification of poverty is akin to a law of nature
Posted by: Rune on May 1, 2008 11:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Permeating this entire discussion is an unexamined notion that institutionalized disparities of wealth and wages south of the U.S. border is a given. Some talk of making the differences a little less sharp, others refuse to do anything to change the situation. But I am not seeing anyone consider that there is no good reason for keeping people in Latin America strikingly poorer and less well educated (although northern disinvestment in education is closing that gap) than their neighbors in the U.S. and Canada. That is unfortunate because it is the institutionalization of that wealth, wage, and education gap that is at the heart of the problems being discussed and, thus, a key component of any genuine solution to those problems.

Just a thought. . . .

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paranoid!!
Posted by: Gail Kerr on May 1, 2008 11:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is up with your site and getting articles from it? Have you been infiltrated with "invasive Bushism"? I not only can not view the apparently great article( and evidently most controversial) on immigration and the jobs that illegals are doing but the illegal jobs too!!!!! AND ALL I GET is the title and a graphic being drawn over the title page????? What is up with that???????

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» Bushed! Posted by: Rune
» RE: paranoid!! Posted by: Joshua Holland
"Your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free. . ."
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on May 1, 2008 11:30 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nice work! However, you see to be channeling this:

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me"

-Emma Lazarus (1883)

Now, that is very quaint, as Alberto Gonzales said, but in these troubled times we must look instead to torture and militarism abroad and repression at home in order to keep our Fatherland, sorry, Homeland, safe from those who hate our freedoms and wish to destroy our way of life.

This has happened before. In the 1980s, we barely managed to keep the Nicaraguan Sandinistas from sweeping through Mexico and overrunning the U.S. border all the way from California to Florida. We'd all be bowing down to Mao, or someone, if it wasn't for the Reagan-Bush Iran-Contra program. That put a stop to that.

Now, we have a new threat - the pending Islamic invasion of the United States. Islam is spreading among immigrant Mexican farmworkers, you know - spreading like wildfire. It all has to be stopped.

Allow me to point you towards a more appropriate and modern perspective on this issue, hot from the German Propaganda Archive: How a Good Nazi Treats a Foreign Worker (1942)

"I am astonished by your attitudes on the fundamental matter of our policy towards foreigners. Especially from an old National Socialist like you, I expected a different viewpoint. Please stay seated. . .As good comrades, we can take different views without taking it personally!

. . .Circumstances force us to bring foreign workers to the Reich, but that by no means forces me to sit at the same table with them. I can treat them decently, but I don't need to associate with them. Think of how long it took us to plant the idea of a people's community in our nation, and now we want to carry this over thoughtlessly to our opponents, to other peoples and races? No! . . .

Just because there is a labor shortage, one forgets national honor and pride, wanting only through such wheelings and dealings (there is no other way to describe them) to get the help one wants. I can earn and maintain authority in other ways; I do not need to be a friend to these foreigners. The opposite, indeed. Even if we are fighting shoulder to shoulder with a part of these peoples today on the battleground, we must keep our distance back in the Reich. . .


Yeah! All those Latinos in the Army, you know - they'll bring their families here! This is why we need a guest worker program for the military - like the British had in India.

The guest worker program is a stroke of genius, as it will keep lower class immigrants and ethnic and racial inferiors in a permanently subservient position, and can be used to break the backs of unions - since anyone who even thinks of trying to start a union can be deported overnight, just like they do in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

Attention Immigrants: Thanks for Your Hard Work. Now Leave.

P.S. Screw Godwin's Law. Who says we can't talk about one of the main historical events of the 20th century - the rise of Nazi Germany? Godwin is a dweeb. Here is a new adaptation:

"Anytime someone brings up the issue of the close relationships between American and Nazi industrialists in the 1930s, the probability of someone crying out "Godwin's Law" increases exponentially."

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jobs you wont do.. my ass
Posted by: cyr3n on May 1, 2008 11:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Illegals hold jobs as computer programmers and graphic designers too.. its not all mexicans. There are tons of skilled asian and indian illegals holding very white-collar jobs.

Another thing.. even if the minimum wage were increased. Companies would get around it by hiring everyone as a contractor.

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Divide and Conquer Part I
Posted by: Todd on May 1, 2008 12:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article makes a lot of valid points. To me, the most important is the notion of dividing and conquering the right, so that the left can implement a workable and humane solution that starts with either amnesty or a path towards citizenship. This should be immediately followed by a temporary moratorium on new immigration applications until the social security administration can update all of it’s records in conjunction with American businesses. Without this first step, the enforcement of work place laws will not happen. And until you divide and conquer the right, immigration reform that includes a "path toward citizenship", will never materialize. We will be stuck in a catch-22 kind of limbo in which nothing will change. We’ll continue on with band aid approaches such as workplace raids and border fences, as well as the ubiquitous political grandstanding forever pandering to and temporarily placating various constituencies. The fact is, when one considers the financial equation represented by immigrants, neither the revenue-collecting side of government nor business has much incentive to change things. Here’s why:

1) Border Security does nothing to prevent the thousands of foreign tourists who enter the country legally each year and who simply over-stay their visas and take up residence (and jobs) in the U.S.

2) While many employers knowingly hire illegal immigrants and inflict the abuses upon them stated in the article, there are perhaps tens of thousands of other employers who un-knowingly hire undocumented workers who have obtained social security numbers on the black market. These businesses treat them as fairly as they do their actual U.S. employees. And while some of these businesses may have an inkling that many of their employees might be working illegally, there is a human factor at play: If the employee is well-liked and does exceptional work, the employer has little incentive to do what is in fact the IRS’s work – ensuring that worker numbers are valid.

3) The Internal Revenue Service has the ability and responsibility to detect if social security numbers do not match. The Department of Homeland Security has the responsibility of enforcing the laws that require businesses to fire employees whose numbers do not match what the IRS has on file. Unfortunately, there are more LEGAL U.S. citizens who have non-matching social security numbers than undocumented immigrant workers - it's a bureaucratic mess. As such, the Federal courts have ruled the firing of employees with conflicting social security numbers as “un-enforceable”, since it would cause anarchy when millions of legitimate citizens are fired.

4) The Social Security Administration has no desire to see the law enforced. According to a September 2007 report published by the Center on Budget Policy Priorities, the Social Security Administration has estimated that three quarters of undocumented immigrants pay payroll taxes, contributing approximately $8.5 billion to Social Security and Medicare each year. Only the children of those workers who are born in the U.S. can get any direct benefits from the money they pay in. Otherwise, the money they pay in goes to support U.S. citizens. Also, most of these workers, by virtue of a lower tax bracket, are also owed checks for over-paying the IRS. But many of them do not file tax returns and do not receive their overpayment, giving the IRS additional money. Furthermore, the IRS would like nothing more than to give these workers amnesty. Because once they are legalized the bottom falls out of the black market and tax collection increases.

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Divide and Conquer - Part II
Posted by: Todd on May 1, 2008 12:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
5) As one of the posters suggests, there is clear evidence that almost all undocumented workers have an exceptional work ethic. Most Americans cannot conceptualize the idea of entering another country illegally in order to work, because we live in the richest economy in the world. But foreigners with drive and ambition are willing to risk entering (or staying in) the U.S. illegally for the opportunity to work hard for a better wage. Their ambition translates to generally exceptional work habits that are highly valued by employers. And let’s face it, every American is taught from birth that those who work hardest, fastest and smartest get the most out of our system – and we are encouraged to do so. It’s no wonder that businesses bend the rules in order to maximize the bottom line and the IRS looks the other way when the money is coming in. Capitalism is endemic in almost every aspect of our society and that’s the way we like it.

6) Most people (on both sides of the issue) do not even personally know an undocumented worker. They have no first hand knowledge of how or where they live, what their habits are and what they are like as people. I know many undocumented workers personally. 99% of them came here as tourists and over-stayed their visas. All of them purchased social security numbers on the black market. Almost all started in low wage service sector jobs, but have worked their way up to better positions over the years. Almost all pay taxes through payroll deductions, and many have insurance through their workplace. Their jobs range from working at Dunkin' Doughnuts to being self-employed. Some have married to get their green card. They have resided in this country anywhere between 3 to 15 years. Their lives are so deeply intertwined with the U.S. economy and culture at this point that none of them has any intention of ever leaving the United States and they consider themselves Americans. And with an estimated 11 to 20 million undocumented workers in the U.S., black market labor in countless industries as well as the Federal and State governments are well served by them being here and always will be. It seems to me that without a path to citizen-ship, this problem can’t begin to be solved.

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Good beginning to solve a big problem...
Posted by: outsideagitator on May 1, 2008 12:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a really great post. I especially agree with your four pillars presentation. They must all be included if we are to solve this painful problem.

The whole question of immigration and immigrants is ultimately, I believe an international one and diplomatic engagement between states and regions is an absolute necessity, not only for the U.S., Canada and Mexico but other areas of the world as well. We do not really know just what effect the impact of global warming will be as yet, but there are indications that in some areas it may contribute to a sizable displacement of our fellow human beings. If we treat other humans in the way that the nut-cases known as the minutemen would treat undocumented workers and their families then reasonable and workable solutions will die stillborn.

Joseph

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The Jungle
Posted by: ciccio on May 1, 2008 2:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think everyone entering this debate should first
re-read this book, perhaps even read it for the first time.Upton Sinclair wrote it to highlight the exploitation of the working class, how the wealthy employers publicized the Utopia for the would be immigrant who on arrival were treated no better than slaves. Not too much difference between then and now.

The outcry over this seminal work is in many ways identical to the reactions today. Nobody gave a damn about the wage slaves, they cared only about the fact that their food was filthy and barely fit for human consumption.Not much difference now. An outbreak of e.coli in lettuce must be due to the illegals defecating in the fields, not a word about the need of those illegals having to defecate there in the first place. The problems of illegal immigration
can only be solved by fixing the primary cause of it. That primary cause is changing the personal department to the human resource department.

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I strongly believe that they should close the border to Mexico
Posted by: chlamor on May 1, 2008 3:42 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On one condition, which is you close it not only to people but to resources. If you say you want to close it to people but not resources, what you're saying, one thing, is that you're a racist asshole, but another thing you're saying is - I don't want you but I want the coffee that's grown on the land that used to be yours.

Why is this migration taking place? It's not taking place because suddenly a bunch of people from Guatemala decide they want to take an eco-tour of the strawberry fields in the San Joaquin valley. It's because their communities are being destroyed through the theft of the land. If you don't want these people moving up here then don't steal those people's lands, pretty simple solution.

Yes it is a xenophobic sleight of hand but it is used, as it has been for centuries in America preceding Republican-Democrat nonsense, to point the finger at the victim so as to keep the eyes averted from the horrors being perpetrated upon those victims and to ignore or rationalize the colossal banditry for the beneficiaries. The liberal class is particularly hypocritical and criminally ignorant on this point.

The problem is really quite simple as is the solution.

The problem: El Norte is pushing these "illegals" off of their ancestral lands so as to steal the resources that reside in Chiapas e.g.

The solution: Stop El Norte from stealing the resources of the people in Chiapas e.g.

NAFTA is merely the latest acronym-IMF the latest international syndicate-World Bank only the latest MoneyChanger in this ongoing colonial conquest.

Neither the employer or the "immigrant" are really the fundamental issue.

Qualifier: Many who do employ "immigrants" exploit them and should be themselves forced to work in the broiling hot sun for 14 hours/day or forced to do backbreaking early-death work in the maquiladoras.

Let the truth be the frame.

As for higher paying jobs these too are part of the problem and also obfuscate the issue.

People shouldn't need or even desire to make 70k/year(or even 25k). The problem is that it takes so much to live in our HP society. The solution- Elimination of rent-Free Health Care- Food stipends- public transport etc...

In short Socialism.

Everyone needs to be (allowed to get by) getting by with less-MUCH LESS.

Wealth is the problem, poverty it's necessary offspring, and it requires the aforementioned theft from other lands to maintain this obscene standard of living- a standard of living that has death of brown skinned people as one of its prerequisites.

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Immigration is also about a lot more than just jobs, but about freedom, too
Posted by: logansafi on May 1, 2008 4:20 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article makes some good points about how well-to-do employers and companies are not punished, just relatively poor people are. Still, the issue of immigration is much more complex than just being about employment alone.

Let me give an example now of another issue other than just thinking that employment is all there is, as the author seems to do. It is much more than that.
Immigration, too, is related to our God given right to be able to freely move about in this world, something that almost all Americans take for granted, but most citizens of other countries cannot. In short, do we have a right to try to deny other citizens of this world a right that all of us Americans take as a given, as well we should?

Let's ask another question of ourselves, too. Let us ask ourselves if we want a world that is made by government authorities into a series of gates and cages for the majority of the world's people? Really, I think that we do not, since this is the antithesis of FREEDOM.

And then there is the family issue behind immigration questions. Do we really want some people subject to being totally prohibited from working alongside US citizens, even when they have family in the US that are already citizens? Do we really need all these national barriers. gates, and cages everywhere in the world? For what purpose? Don't we care about how families are broken and divided up for so little real reason?

Immigration is related to how we see ourselves as people. Do we think that the whole world should be exactly like ourselves? Then closing the gates and building thicker and more brutal walls is the way to go. But do we believe that variety is the spice of life, and not drab, conformist sameness?

The real weakness of this article, is that the author seems to want to government to regulate AND RESTRICT immigration as much as the xenophobes do. He just wants the regulation AND RESTRICTIONS to be differently gone about. We should ask for restrictions at times, but why so much on the right to travel freely about? Is the author trying to restrict his own right to travel freely, or to restrict the rights of others to do so?

Sure the issue is jobs, but there is more to it than that. There is no virtue to trying, as relatively free people, to go about trying to find a way to stop others from coming here for what-ever their reasons might be. Isn't the author trying to do just that? He's got the right to move about freely in the world, so why not others?

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So tell me Joshua, HOW MANY MORE DO WE ALLOW?
Posted by: Libsrule on May 1, 2008 4:45 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seriously I have been asking this for the last few years and NEVER getting an answer from the amnesty and open borders for all people.

How many ILLEGALS should be allowed to just show up at the border and demand we give them legalization and all the privileges they have NOT EARNED?

Another 20 million?

Another 50 million?

Another 100 million?

Let me ask you, IF the U.S. government was stupid enough to grant amnesty (and THAT is what it is) how many millions more do you think would suddenly just start rushing the U.S.knowing full well they no longer face any punishment?

AND what about the so called "family re-unification" parts of all these amnesty bills? The part that says after a few years the illegal who has now been granted legal status will be allowed to bring over all immediate family members, mom, dad, kids, wife/husband, brothers and sisters.

Let's just go with the 12 million mark already here. Add a conservative number of SIX family members allowed to show up and demand all the welfare, medical etc.

That 12 million has now jumped up to SEVENTY TWO MILLION who didn't have to come here legally. (so to speak)

How long before our economy collapses under the weight of an uneducated, unskilled work force that is depressing our wages before we start looking like every third world economy?


AND how many do you think will come up to "visit" Uncle Jose and then never leave because after all why worry, Just hang out, have demonstrations, threaten to vote for the other guy/woman that if you don't get everything you demand for your illegal cousins they go out of office.

So tell me Joshua and all you other amnesty for all and open borders types

HOW MANY CAN WE AFFORD?

How many more uneducated, unskilled, and poor people of whom most don't really want to become citizens they just want the right to come here, depress wages, have the medical taken care of by legal immigrants and American citizens, send up to FORTY FIVE BILLION or more back home (which means money not spent supporting OUR economy) and overcrowd our schools with kids demanding to be taught in Spanish

SO TELL ME.

HOW MANY?

I've never gotten an answer just the usual "You're a racist and bigot and I'm not going to answer that".

Know why?

Cuz you can't honestly answer that question.

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» Hilarious Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Adding ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
For the trees?
Posted by: Spot on May 1, 2008 10:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unless I'm mistaken (and you'll surely correct me here), the point of the article is that a focus on undesirable jobs will shift the focus of the immigration argument away from the immigrants, and onto the reasons they risk so much to come to this country.
Workers' rights are the reason jobs are "good". When workers are treated with respect and dignity, they work harder, will tolerate harsher conditions, and come out of the day happier regardless of what happened. The security of a job that workers can find meaning in, regardless of the results of their labor, should be the focus of progressive policy.
I have a peculiar position in that I am in the management class, but I have worked my way up to my position by occupying every position below it in my workplace. I push papers today, but last year I made the coffee. Before that I washed the dishes. Before that I swept the floors. I feel the pain of the workers in my workplace when other managers, those years or decades removed from manual labor (or those who have avoided that role entirely), talk down to them as if they are less than human.
The pressure in my position mostly comes down from the top; I feel the strain of being forced to extract maximum productivity for a minimum of pay, but this does not mean that I work my employees to the bone. We work hard, but we ALL work. I respect the workers, genuinely care about them, and concede them the ability to put their lives before their work when they find it necessary. I stand beside them in the production line when things get beyond their abilities.
My boss, and the other salaried managers do not see things the same way, and are unable to act likewise. Their response to a rough patch in the day's work is generally to take the stress they feel out on the workers.
When the district manager says that he loves the latino workers, but hates the whites, they laugh because they are white and feel superior (the shift supervisor, a woman of Guatemalan ancestry, holds her tongue at meetings but confides in me her frustrations; she too has worked her way up from the bottom). When the boss says we have too many labor hours, they shave hours off shifts in the computer. There is a blatant disregard for labor laws; employees work off the clock sometimes, they have overtime deducted; last week I was on vacation and on my return I discovered what amounts to a minimum of 26 child labor law violations!
Racism, Sexism, Sexual Harassment, constant degrading of work performed and persons performing it, it grates against the fibers of my soul and I am getting to the point where I cannot stand it much longer!

But the harsh truth is that I would have quit this job years ago if I could find a position that pays the same.

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Corporations Control The Country
Posted by: Southern Gal on May 2, 2008 6:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Corporations control this country. Our labor and safety laws are routinely violated with no penalty. Corporations do not have morals or humane concerns for laborers. The corporations' sole concern is making money. Cheap labor helps corporations to lower their bottom line. People who enter the country illegally are at the mercy of these employers, who can drive wages as low as those workers are willing to go. The answers to immigration and labor issues have to include holding companies accountable for their breaking of the immigration, labor,health and safety laws of this country and extracting fines or some means of financial punishment for breaking those laws. Workers used to travel to parts of the country that had jobs. My family lived in different parts of the country because there were few good paying jobs in the South. National ways of publicizing available jobs across the United States could lead to legal workers finding employment. The key to the problem is not the people, but the corporations.

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Workplace "crackdown" vs. workplace "enforcement"?
Posted by: war_on_tara on May 2, 2008 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What exactly is the difference? - fewer guns & cops with the latter?

If for a change the focus will be on fining, revoking business licenses, maybe jailing the employers, then you have a start similar to Arizona's new law. (Which, still, was protested much more by immigrant groups than by business.)

But I liked the statement by Okla. St. Sen. Coates:
"In the oil fields, they're paying $18 to $20 per hour to start," he said, "but they can't find enough willing workers to fill the jobs. We've told our young people to work with their minds, not with their hands."

Most of our kids flatter themselves that they have much mind to work with. This is a sad US cultural problem, and trying to make every non-immigrant American kid a college graduate isn't doing American society any good.

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Immigration Fraud
Posted by: immigrationman on May 2, 2008 9:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with this article. Everyone complains about illegals, but then they want their home rehabbed by a guy/gal with skillz. Immigration status doesn't matter when you need a better bathroom. Still, I am concerned about immigration fraud, which this article seems to touch on. I just read the new book "Legal US Immigration: Truth, Fraud and the American Way" by Adam Edward Rothwell, an immigration lawyer, and I couldn't believe how much fraud there is in the system. And the book's website (www.immigrationisamess.com ) says it all.

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Whoops...we have no workers
Posted by: Mexitli on May 2, 2008 4:17 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whoops...we have no workers

Arizona lawmakers find out the hard way what happens when you implement hardline immigration policies without taking into consideration the economic consequences...."Whoops, we have no workers"

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So What!
Posted by: Mexitli on May 2, 2008 7:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've worked with lazy, uneducated whites. The ONLY employees you should be concerned with are YOU OWN.

Mind your OWN business.

LooL!

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» And that was for desidid Posted by: Mexitli
» RE: And that was for desidid Posted by: desidid
» If you had stayed in europe Posted by: Mexitli
» RE: So What! Posted by: desidid
» Mind you own BUSINESS Posted by: Mexitli
Heat on both sides, but who is applying it?
Posted by: mike_burns on May 3, 2008 1:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's the destruction of all labor rights in America. The Mexican economy has been under U.S. corporations since the assasination of the first president, after the Mexican revolution. We get to exploit their people. That is why they were eager for European emigrants. It is to destroy any attempt at social improvement.
Back in the 70s, there were white people returning to the fields to work. Why? Cezar Chaves organised the field workers. There are many poor working class Americans that will do the same jobs. They can't be cheated and they have a notion of their rights.
Our government is not doing it's job in protecting our rights is the problem. Right now, heavy industry is going to two tierd wage scales. One wage for the retireing white workers, and a lower scale for the emigrant. Our wages have been going backwards for the last 30yrs. We had to move up the latter, just to keep what we got. As we move up the latter, in desperation, the wages, benefits, and rights are disappearing. We are forced to pay higher amounts of tuition so our children will have the same pay as we use to make, without a degree. The Republican party is full of over-stuffed wealthy people with delusions of persicution, because they have to pay taxes. They ought to feel lucky they can pay taxes.
Excuse my spelling. I am working a 16hr day, and not getting any overtime for it. There are laws against it, but if I know what's good for me, I have to keep my mouth shut. I am non-union. The profession has been outsorced to non-union contractors. I say Unionize everything, and see what happens. If they don't let us, we may have to have a repeat of 1917 Moscow.

P.S. The way you maintane control in a prison system is to spread hate between the prisoners. It keeps down prison revolts. The spread of hatred is doing it's job on us really good!

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Working the Migrant Fields
Posted by: Grandma_B on May 4, 2008 2:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"At the end of the day, even if advocates of an enforcement-heavy approach were to get everything they wanted, the best they could offer is the promise that every citizen who is sufficiently desperate to take a crappy, strenuous or demeaning job that pays a poverty wage will be able to find one."

A few years ago I worked the migrant fields picking strawberries. I am a Native American, US citizen. We started work at 4:30 AM and worked until 3:30 PM with one 10 minute break for lunch and 2 potty breaks per day. At the beginning of the season, we were paid 39 cents a quart (no hourly wage). I worked side by side with many families and migrant workers, children from age 10 and adults into their 70's. We stooped over the rows of plants, straddling them and moving forward, always foward in our designated row. Little children carried water for us. Every hour we were "counted" to measure how many quarts we had picked.

I was a "local", but many of the workers were migrants. They lived in substandard "company houses" and were required to charge their food and supplies at the company store. No cash, just chits. By the end of the season, we were getting paid just 7 cents a quart. The day before the end, everyone was given their "slip": an invoice of how much they owed for rent and to the company store. If a family had 5 members working, they might come out ahead and had enough to buy gas to get to the next job. But many families "just happened" to have bills for rent and groceries that interestingly totaled or nearly totaled their earnings. Weeks of labor under extreme conditions. Only aching backs and empty wallets to show. No retirement. No sick leave. And certainly no vacation time.

On pay day, the owners of the farm called in the INS and about 1/3 of the workers were hauled off as "illegal" immigrants. The owners didn't have to pay them a cent. They had been slave labor. When we protested, the owners were not fined or chastised in any way for having provided illegal jobs for undocumented workers. They were supposed to have checked papers for everyone they had working on the farm. It never happened.

I thought that I had been part of an isolated experience, but just three years ago, I saw the same incident repeated in WA state.

Welcome to the USA--citizens or not--where the corporate growers continue to amass profits on the backs of America's poor. Give us unions. Give us living wages. Give us the just rights of employment in which children and old people and families can work with dignity. Don't blame the victims. Hold the corporations and those who exploit American workers responsible. Enforce the laws and protect the working poor.

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» RE: Working the Migrant Fields Posted by: Grandma_B
Classify Illegal Immigrants Felons
Posted by: OK Granny on May 11, 2008 7:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I personnaly see no difference between a bank robber and an illegal immigrant who steals a job from a American worker. They agree to work for low pay bringing down the wage scale for all workers. There are no jobs for all of these people so they resort to crimes. Each and every law enforcement officer in our country should be able to retain an illegal for deportation. If these people would stop over-populating their family and country resources, they could live happily in their country of birth. Instead, they are selfish and irresponsible.
It is large and small businesses owners and stock holders along with our inept Congress that should be called down for this chaotic problem. American workers are losing.

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