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Health & Wellness

Only One Candidate Can Achieve Universal Health Coverage

By Paul Krugman, The New York Times. Posted February 7, 2008.


Hillary's plan would insure nearly twice as many people as Obama's.
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The principal policy division between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama involves health care. It's a division that can seem technical and obscure -- and I've read many assertions that only the most wonkish care about the fine print of their proposals.

But as I've tried to explain in previous columns, there really is a big difference between the candidates' approaches. And new research, just released, confirms what I've been saying: the difference between the plans could well be the difference between achieving universal health coverage -- a key progressive goal -- and falling far short.

Specifically, new estimates say that a plan resembling Mrs. Clinton's would cover almost twice as many of those now uninsured as a plan resembling Mr. Obama's -- at only slightly higher cost.

Let's talk about how the plans compare.

Both plans require that private insurers offer policies to everyone, regardless of medical history. Both also allow people to buy into government-offered insurance instead.

And both plans seek to make insurance affordable to lower-income Americans. The Clinton plan is, however, more explicit about affordability, promising to limit insurance costs as a percentage of family income. And it also seems to include more funds for subsidies.

But the big difference is mandates: the Clinton plan requires that everyone have insurance; the Obama plan doesn't.

Mr. Obama claims that people will buy insurance if it becomes affordable. Unfortunately, the evidence says otherwise.

After all, we already have programs that make health insurance free or very cheap to many low-income Americans, without requiring that they sign up. And many of those eligible fail, for whatever reason, to enroll.

An Obama-type plan would also face the problem of healthy people who decide to take their chances or don't sign up until they develop medical problems, thereby raising premiums for everyone else. Mr. Obama, contradicting his earlier assertions that affordability is the only bar to coverage, is now talking about penalizing those who delay signing up -- but it's not clear how this would work.

So the Obama plan would leave more people uninsured than the Clinton plan. How big is the difference?

To answer this question you need to make a detailed analysis of health care decisions. That's what Jonathan Gruber of M.I.T., one of America's leading health care economists, does in a new paper.

Mr. Gruber finds that a plan without mandates, broadly resembling the Obama plan, would cover 23 million of those currently uninsured, at a taxpayer cost of $102 billion per year. An otherwise identical plan with mandates would cover 45 million of the uninsured -- essentially everyone -- at a taxpayer cost of $124 billion. Over all, the Obama-type plan would cost $4,400 per newly insured person, the Clinton-type plan only $2,700.

That doesn't look like a trivial difference to me. One plan achieves more or less universal coverage; the other, although it costs more than 80 percent as much, covers only about half of those currently uninsured.

As with any economic analysis, Mr. Gruber's results are only as good as his model. But they're consistent with the results of other analyses, such as a 2003 study, commissioned by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, that compared health reform plans and found that mandates made a big difference both to success in covering the uninsured and to cost-effectiveness.

And that's why many health care experts like Mr. Gruber strongly support mandates.

Now, some might argue that none of this matters, because the legislation presidents actually manage to get enacted often bears little resemblance to their campaign proposals. And there is, indeed, no guarantee that Mrs. Clinton would, if elected, be able to pass anything like her current health care plan.

But while it's easy to see how the Clinton plan could end up being eviscerated, it's hard to see how the hole in the Obama plan can be repaired. Why? Because Mr. Obama's campaigning on the health care issue has sabotaged his own prospects.

You see, the Obama campaign has demonized the idea of mandates -- most recently in a scare-tactics mailer sent to voters that bears a striking resemblance to the "Harry and Louise" ads run by the insurance lobby in 1993, ads that helped undermine our last chance at getting universal health care.

If Mr. Obama gets to the White House and tries to achieve universal coverage, he'll find that it can't be done without mandates -- but if he tries to institute mandates, the enemies of reform will use his own words against him.

If you combine the economic analysis with these political realities, here's what I think it says: If Mrs. Clinton gets the Democratic nomination, there is some chance -- nobody knows how big -- that we'll get universal health care in the next administration. If Mr. Obama gets the nomination, it just won't happen.

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Experience, especially in this.
Posted by: Billy Blight on Feb 7, 2008 12:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can't deny that she's had more focus and experience in this than most people, let alone the other contenders.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Truth Hurts?? Posted by: Andie927
» RE: Truth Hurts?? Posted by: rickiey
» RE: Truth Hurts?? Posted by: Cooltruth
» RE: Edwards plan Best Posted by: Andie927
Change
Posted by: chomsky on Feb 7, 2008 12:24 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, since when can we trust politicians promises...? It is common knowledge that they would say anything to get elected. So, if you can, judge them by what they did in the past. And Clinton's history is not that great.

Second, even if it was realy gonna happen, it won't balance all the bad things she would do. She represents everything but change. The US will attack Iran, the lobbyists will be still in control of the country/people, no-bid contracts with friends, etc...

Personaly, I am reallly tired of all this... I want change! I want honesty! I want peace! I want real democracy!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Change Posted by: capybara1950
» RE: Change Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Change Posted by: Declan
» RE: Change Posted by: liberalibrarian
No on Clinton
Posted by: g50 on Feb 7, 2008 1:10 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't afford healthcare because I don't make enough money to buy it and I don't have an employer plan, and if I was required to buy it I STILL couldn't afford it, and I am not eligible for these alleged benefits. I have looked into my ability to get Medicare. Hillary's plan really pisses me off because I'm punished for my inability to purchase healthcare but apparently its this noble "right" to healthcare in the social democratic tradition. Please. How can you mandate that I do something I can't? And on top of it to say its some kind of noble, human rights kind of thing? Unreal. Real tasteless. So hollow in the Clinton fashion of hollowness.

Oh, plus, Hillary has never produced on this issue. Her whole "I should be associated with universal healthcare in the sense that actual believers in healthcare benefits think of universal healthcare" is a lie.

She failed in 1993, not only crushing reasonable alternatives within the Democratic party when the political momentum was on their side, but she further completely dropped the ball on the media by not actively engaging the media as she crafted the policy. I mean, when you do that, on apparently such a big issue, at a time where you have a Democratic majority in government, how are people supposed to think when you aren't presenting your case to the newspapers, to the magazines, to the radio channels, to the television broadcasts? When you look back on how badly Hillary fouled up healthcare when the New Democrats were still new, you can even get the faint impression she failed intentionally. Of course that level of cynicism may be unreasonable - regardless of motive she failed and it was because she insisted on sticking to needlessly aggressive and hostile tactics.

When you telescope between the smaller details that Hillary claims are the components of her "dedication" to public service, and the larger judgments of character people make about other people, you get the sense that if Hillary who has not been true to her actual enlightened self, that she has settled for half-measures and appearances rather than substance, and that ultimately the Clintons are about the Clintons in the grand tradition of vanity. When you take her phony mandate that forces me to buy something I can't, or her pathetic support for the war when clear-thinking people needed a leader most, when you take her trashing of her opponent which has really been classless coming out of her campaign, I think, what do they care about the public? And that's their main pitch - they fight because they care. But I don't think they do care. They care to fight and be the ones in the ring. Their accomplishments were failures, their achievements have more to do with liking and rooting for them than the substance, and their politics is irritating. They certainly think voters are idiots. Yet their supposedly vaunted intelligence has showed up again and again as a sham, when you consider how much needless trouble they always found in. I don't care for that kind of stupid soap opera discourse.

Yea this is a rant - I just find it mind boggling how Democrats operate. Hillary is a patently awful choice, the Clinton brand has never been favored by a majority of the public in elections, and they've been around for so long without doing much of substance. It's this kind of thinking among Democrats on the front end that always ends up with head scratching when the Republican beats the Democrat in November.

I look over the polls, and I see that the dividing line is about 40. Over 40 breaks for Hillary, under 40 breaks for Obama.

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» RE: No on Clinton Posted by: g50
» "a wisdom in youth"??? Posted by: olderworker
» Same roadblock as in 1993 Posted by: CatDad
» RE: No on Clinton Posted by: Knot_Rich
» RE: No on Clinton Posted by: jmooney
And one more thing
Posted by: g50 on Feb 7, 2008 1:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Hillary is spending 2,000 per person currently uninsured and Barack is spending 4,200, that amounts to an admission his is a superior insurance. Plus, if he spends 100 billion and she spends 120 billion, that proves the difference between the plans is that those who are allegedly "free riding" or able to afford insurance but who choose not, amount to only 1/6 of the uninsured. That means Obama is right, that the insurance issue is more about that people cannot afford it, rather than choosing not to.

This is a huge philosophic difference, it amounts to Hillary providing a less funded program per person and to punishing those who cannot afford it rather than delivering on actual health insurance.

Hey, PS, the Clintons are the most funded drug company politicians in U$ history.

Sorry, but I can't be on this damned Hillary train.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: And one more thing Posted by: capybara1950
» RE: And one more thing Posted by: babs
» RE: And one more thing Posted by: Liberty G
» Pooling is protection Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: Pooling is protection Posted by: Xynyx
» I give your commentary a 5 Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Wealth transfer from poor to rich Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: And one more thing Posted by: christopherjee
Samba
Posted by: samba on Feb 7, 2008 1:17 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why should I be forced to buy health insurance that benefits health care system that kills 100,000 people a year,according to AMA figures?
I don't need or want their services.I'm healthier than most doctors I know.They don't even study nutrition ,except if they specialize.They don't know what health is,they mostly study sickness.They treat the body as a machine to be fixed when it breaks,but don't know how to keep it healthy. There is so much data being generated that it behooves anyone who has to deal with medical professionals to do exhaustive internet research on their own ,because the pros are too busy. Most of the medical profession is chronically sleep deprived. If you're going in for surgery ,you better write in big bold letters on the correct body part,and you better have a sane, alert,intelligent,tough advocate with you to make sure things are done properly,that they actually read your chart etc.
The idea that I should be forced to pay to be put through this dysfunctional system is outrageous. Krugman is way off the mark.When Auto insurance became mandatory the price went way up and the service went way down. Why can't people on the left undersatnd that economic incentives are the best front end approach to getting social responsibility out of profit motivated businesses?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» I Half Agree Posted by: Liberty G
» RE: I Half Agree Posted by: samba
» I More Than Half Agree Posted by: Liberty G
» One thing you can not say Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: I More Than Half Agree Posted by: Liberty G
» RE: Samba Posted by: Knot_Rich
» RE: Samba Posted by: samba
Take It From Someone IN Healthcare
Posted by: NoPCZone on Feb 7, 2008 2:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unless and until you get private insurers OUT of healthcare you will NOT be satisfied with the quality of coverage, we will NOT achieve the kind of efficiencies of cost, we will NOT stem the killing off of our rural and safety-net hospitals and we will NOT be getting the kind of healthcare all people deserve. It's really that critical.

Insurance companies and HMOs make money by denying people coverage and challenging every provider decision and claim. It is not in their interest to pay providers in a timely manner or to pay them fairly for the services rendered. Their cat and mouse game on billing and pre-approval adds a huge bureaucracy on providers and insurers that consumes a huge portion of the money spent on healthcare while diagnosing and treating not one person.

This game the insurers play puts a huge burden down to the level of individual providers, taking valuable time away from actually caring for sick and injured people. I spend at least as much time doing this kind of BS paperwork as I do caring for patients, despite computerization and automation. It simply does not have to be this way.

Single payer, universal, not-for-profit, NATIONAL coverage. Not state by state, where each state gives citizens a different standard and quality of care. All for one and one for all...

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capybara
Posted by: capybara1950 on Feb 7, 2008 3:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry, I misclicked. I meant to rate your post a 5.
There's plenty of victims around that will testify you can't trust the Clintons as far as you can see them. A shame too because Hillary & Bill are both intelligent and they know a lot of what's wrong in the world. But ambition has changed them so much from their idealistic youth that now they are so busy tricking everyone, that they are ending up tricking themselves. It's a sad waste because they could have been good if they hadn't left integrity behind somewhere. ugh

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Canadians / Americans
Posted by: WimDerNess on Feb 7, 2008 4:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It has few to do with this very good article but I'm living in France and I'm still surprised to read a Canadian author not including herself among Americans.

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» RE: Canadians / Americans Posted by: Declan
Clinton wants to fix health care wrong
Posted by: bthespoon on Feb 7, 2008 4:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Universal Care Done WRONG" is unaffordable, unsustainable and immoral...just slightly less immoral but even more unaffordable and unsustainable than what we have now. Mitt, Arnold, Blagoivich, Clinton and Obama only want to prove to the people that universal health care is unaffordable so they and their money piles can keep on keepin' on. Fixing it right would be the opposite: affordable, sustainable and moral. More Americans are coming to realize this than ever. We must find the truth on our own because our leadership refuses to provide it for us. The only problem is we the people can't fix anything without the leadership, and no one left in the running is willing to lead or even point us in the right direction (i.e. uniting Americans into one protective pool instead of leaving us in myriads of aptly-named "risk groups"). Our leaders and media misguide and lie to us. No wonder our people are so misinformed. Our leaders want to help the health insurers keep us divided and conquered in a captive market that is highly ANTI-SOCIAL (because it kills innocent people). Those of us who have done our homework know that Hillary's plan is awful and won't work. But Obama's plan is worse, and the Republicans' even worse. Cut the crap and let's get real...for REAL "change". P.S. The devil in both Clinton's and Obama's details are the loopholes making their "community rating" gutless wonders so health insurers can tilt the playing field in their favor at our expense. We have the people. We have the will. All we lack is the leadership, and they won't even throw us the bones of REAL guaranteed issue with REAL community rating. They're all blowing smoke and mirrors and aparently we as a nation are willingly blinded by them.

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the public good
Posted by: capybara1950 on Feb 7, 2008 5:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have fire stations/fire trucks/firemen we can call that's provided by a single payer, not for profit plan.

We have police we can call that's provided by a single payer, not for profit plan.

Why can't we have clinics/doctors/hospitals that we can call on that are provided by a single payer, not for profit plan.

There are just some services that should be provided for the public, by the public for the public good.

If we take out the insurance companies, we could provide coverage for all and still bring down the yearly cost to each of us that pay for our own individual coverage. Everyone wins. (Well except those working for insurance companies that have to retrain for a new career.)

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» RE: the public good Posted by: Liberty G
» No choice if you're sick Posted by: bthespoon
» The public! good! Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: the public good Posted by: babs
» RE: the public good Posted by: Liberty G
» Best way to fix Medicare Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: the public good Posted by: carbon-based
How in the world do you say "Only One Candidate Can Achieve Universal Health Coverage"?
Posted by: rickiey on Feb 7, 2008 5:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And manage to go through the entire article without mentioning the candidate that HAS achieved universal health coverage?

Romney, mormon or not, got it done AS A REPUBLICAN, no less, in Massachusetts.

And you are telling me that only HIllary can do it? It its quite time for you to look past her gender, and at least be honest enough to acknowledge some of the pros of some of the other candidates.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Romney Didn't Do It Posted by: Liberty G
» MIB: Medical Information Bureau Posted by: bthespoon
What I dont see
Posted by: carbon-based on Feb 7, 2008 5:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I will admit I am strongly considering Obama on a number of issues. Healthcare is not one of them.

Reason is I believe what the article mentions, what one promises rarely translates into action so it make no dsifference what Hillary or Obama or anyone else offers - it's only talk.

As a small business owner I do not see anyone that will releive the enormous burden healtcare cost brings upon the backbone of America - $12 to $15 thousand a year in premiums for husband and wife in an HMO!!!

And then insurance companies lie to you by listing all these doctors that are in the plan and must take you only to find that those doc's say sorry..no new patients (if you have that insurance).

Who is addressing this issue -no one that I can see.

So while it's fine to design a healthcare system that will encompass everyone ( we already have programs where the uninsured can still get medical attention) what is each candidate offering middle class America re healthcare? - nothing so far!

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» We're just getting started Posted by: bthespoon
» Sorry about the bad link. Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: Sorry about the bad link. Posted by: carbon-based
Universal? Like Romney's plan is "universal"?
Posted by: www.suekatz.com on Feb 7, 2008 5:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Criminalizing people who can't afford healthcare is the Romney way. I live in Massachusetts and the new plan is an absolute nightmare. My own private health insurance (the cheapest kind with no 'extras') went up from about $500 to $600 per month when I turned 60. Romney's plan offers me alternatives - more expensive ones. Those who can't afford coverage are punished, fined, penalized. Excuse me? This isn't "universal healthcare" - this is just forcing people to contribute to the profits of providers.
www.suekatz.com

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Clinton/Obama Healthcare Programs
Posted by: kagu632418 on Feb 7, 2008 5:39 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Universal to me means "All Inclusive" Which means everyone gets insured ... Plus Hillary contradicts herself by stating that her program promises that everyone gets the same coverage as the Polititians ... Yeah right! Dream on folks ! Just wait what will happen... As far as I am concerned it will be politics as usual - just more of it ... Just remember Pelosi and her speeches - what did we get? Well - fill in the blanks ... Hillary - Obama - Schmama - it does not matter! I feel sad because Edwards called it quits! It never fails in this Country - The one's that would bring on a positive change never make it .. Corruption and corporate greed wins. LOL Look at Obama he states that we need to changed Washington first ... Really! Its a known fact that hets bookoo contributions from Helathcare Lobbyists. I got my wakeup call - hope you get yours

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Forcing property to another person is slavery
Posted by: GPFrank on Feb 7, 2008 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanking Paul Krugman for his analysis and facts to think about, but I have a principal (and principle) objection to mandates in the way they have been presented;
Namely to press any individual to turn money or property over to any other private individual is a form of slavery and I believe would be found unconstitutional by any judge who is more than a politician. That has already been my main basis of opposing the so-called reforms of Social Security produced by Wall Streeters. In addition, what about the rights now given to patients to refuse treatment? The medicines I am taking put a drag on me so that I realize
while risking my life to go without them I might yet go out and have some fun close to the end of my years where they are anyhow. The worst risk I realize is something occurring so that I might be helplessly paralyzed . But these are decisions best left up to the individual.

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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» bahh--this is nonsense Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: bahh--this is nonsense Posted by: Liberty G
caronome
Posted by: Bayardtom on Feb 7, 2008 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why doesn't anybody get it? Unless we have a not for porfit health care plan that covers everybody, there is no equality for our citizens.We are already paying for it so we should have it. We are paying enough for health care for every one of us should be covered.
The state of Massachusetts has a really nasty plan. Yes, why don't we force people to buy health insurance when they can't afford to do that. I'm surprised that Paul Krugman doesn't get this. I have admired his writing for some time so it's really disappointing to read this drivel. Obviously he can afford health insurance. Congratulations!

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Terrorist
Posted by: HeKnew on Feb 7, 2008 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The last time Hillary started bitching about health care the GOP took control of both houses of Congress for the first time in 40 years.

Representative democracy is obsolete.

Government of the people, by the people and for the people.

Direct Democracy

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EXACTLY PAUL KRUGMAN!
Posted by: drricklippin on Feb 7, 2008 6:32 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.... and that is why I have been supporting Hillary for President.

OBAMA IN 2016!

Dr. Rick Lippin
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com

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Voters rank healthcare #3 on list of problems.
Posted by: Sojourner on Feb 7, 2008 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The comments on this thread show that healthcare matters. But it is way down the list from the economy and the war. No wonder a problem that has been resolved by all other industrialized nations remains for the US.

It hurts the poor and the sick most. Our economy has always prospered on the suffering of those least able to protect themselves. That is immoral.

And let's not hear any complaints about how Krugman is being "shrill" about Obama. When he analyzes the foolishness of the GOP economic policies, he is held in high regard. So give credit where credit is due.

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Northerner
Posted by: northerner on Feb 7, 2008 6:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't want to point a finger at Alternet readers, but the US has chosen to prioritize a gargantuan military-industrial complex, and let health care be run for profit by ravenous corporations. Both choices, of course, aided by an increasingly corrupt and dysfunctional political system.

So how's that working out for you?

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» Yeah, and... Posted by: sausage
» RE: Northerner Posted by: Knot_Rich
» Our role as protector? Posted by: bthespoon
Universal Health Care of, by, and for Big Pharma:
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Feb 7, 2008 6:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Expect to get even sicker and more bankrupt. That's what would happen if you were under a nationalized healthcare system controlled by the drug companies and the junk food industry. You know that's how it would be, so how in blazes can you still be for it?

They'll practically be force injecting you with corn syrup, and then prescribing ritalin because you're constantly gyrating on a sugar rush.

Please listen to yesterday's Alex Jones interview of Jennifer Mattox. It starts about 45 minutes in.

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It Does Not Matter
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Feb 7, 2008 6:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether Obama is elected or Clinton is elected will not be the decisive factor in whether we get a good health care plan. Much more important is whether we elect a decisive majority of progressive Democrats and progressive independents to both the house and Senate. In the Senate this means at least 60 progressives. It is not enough to have a majority of Democrats and it is not even enough to have a super-majority of Democrats because conservative Democrats will vote with the Republicans just as they have done in the present Senate.

Republicans can be counted on to vote in lock-step against any health plan because it just does not fit their ideology. Even if it did, they would not want Democrats to get this big a win. For the same reason, it is likely that any Republican President would veto any reasonable health-care plan.

If the there is a progressive majority in the House and a progressive super-majority in the Senate, then the details of any health-care plan will be worked out in these bodies, not in the White House. It is difficult to imagine that either Obama or Clinton would veto an otherwise reasonable health plan on the basis of the details of mandatory enrollment.

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» RE: It Does Not Matter Posted by: sherry
I'm here to help!
Posted by: JohnJlws on Feb 7, 2008 6:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Famous words of the government before they dive deeper into our pockets. Universal healthcare is not the answer to our healthcare crisis: we are. Either "plan" leaves out the key component of personal responsibility (with, of course, the understanding there are genetic influences). Obama comes closer to understanding this reality in his plan than anyone else--he leads on this issue as well.

I don't want government to mandate anything else unless it mandates the food industry to quit pushing garbage; unless it mandates the drug companies to quit pushing garbage; unless it mandates companies pay a living wage so folks can afford healthcare (what if one of the big oil companies actually used some of those amazing profits to pay their receptionist enough so he or she could provide decent healthcare to their family?).

How about this: If you're within your BMI (Body Mass Index) you get a "whatever amount" tax break; if you don't use tobacco products you get a "whatever amount" tax break; if you get a yearly check-up (including any recommended colonoscopy and/or mammogram) you get a "whatever amount tax break; if you do prenatal care you get a "whatever amount" tax break; if you're sexually active you'll have contraceptives and full-spectrum education readily available no questions asked; if you're living in poverty and want to work your way out (well, I don't know how we'll do it, but we'll quit fighting obscene wars against frightful ghosts and give you legitimate assistance to fix this nightmarish obscenity); if you're going into the healthcare or wellness professions and you're carrying a 3.00 or better grade point the U.S. taxpayer will foot the bill to any state run institution of higher learning.

All of the preceding will cost big bucks, but paying for it is simply a matter of priorities. We can do anything we want, but we may have to quit having a war every year. And unlike any of the plans some of the junk in the preceding might actually fix the problem. And Clinton's plan, like GW's prescription drug benefit will be another financial disaster that we'll pay for and pay for and pay for and it simply fails to address the problem. Another great national placebo though.

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» RE: I'm here to help! Posted by: babs
» RE: I'm here to help! Posted by: lenioui
the Obama campaign has demonized the idea of mandates
Posted by: sausage on Feb 7, 2008 7:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Barack Obama sees that mandated ownership of private health insurance is a poison pill. Congressional Republican will never go for it nor will millions of pinheaded, Randite-libertarian Americans.

And I think Hillary Clinton knows this also. So if and when any bill promoting the Clinton health care agenda is presented in the US House or Senate, Republicans will use every trick in their book to defeat it. And it will go down in flames, as did Clinton's earlier foray into "universal" health care 15 years ago. Then a presumtive President Clinton will bluster about reactionary Republicans thwarting her efforts, then in short order drop the subject and move on. We shall be left to muddle on as before.

Obama's plan may not be as good as Clinton's but it is more politically palatable for Bluedogs and Republicans alike.

The reality is that only Dennis Kucinich's plan will achieve nationally affordable "universal" health care.
"Mainstream" writers like Ph. D. economist and columnist for the New York Times Paul Krugman now agree with those doctors and Dennis that "covering everyone under Medicare would actually be significantly cheaper than our current system." They all recognize that we already spend enough to provide national health care to all but lack the political courage to make the tough decisions that doctors, nurses and medical professionals must run our health care system, - not "for profit" insurance companies who make money by denying health care.
Kucinich.us

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Let me get this straight
Posted by: EncinoM on Feb 7, 2008 7:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Person X with no insurance, is living pay check to pay check (that is not just the poor but the middle class). He is earning enough no to qualify for much if any breaks. Under Obama's plan he has a tough choice, he has access and has a choice afar can he afford it. Under the Billary plan there is no choice an additional tax is coming out of his pay whether or not he can afford it.

Additionally, If I was an employer, why would I even consider health care insurance for my employees, because under the Billary plan, I do not need to gor through the head act of paper work, but have the government take it out of the empoyees wages.

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» RE: Let me get this straight Posted by: Minneapple
» RE: Let me get this straight Posted by: EncinoM
Madate isnot the way
Posted by: dylansstp on Feb 7, 2008 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Romney passed mandated healthcare for everyone in Massachusetts. Poor who chose extra food over their health care got fined for not paying into the system. The same thing would happen here, just on a larger scale. Obama and Clintons plan are both based on the same Yale professors study. You will get the same subsidies under Obama and pay roughly the same for Healthcare under Obama as you would Clinton. The only difference is one you would have to buy into and the other you would not.

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It ain't going to be Hillary
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Feb 7, 2008 7:57 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's only one way to get ALL american's
the healthcare they need and deserve because of this government's short sighted environmental policies and that's to make Healthcare for ALL americans an Executive Order and move it into the Always Funded section of the Federal budget. The same needs to be done with Social Security. Hillary literally has'nt got the balls to do it,forget Obama,he's just as big of a sell-out and the only republican that might is Ron Paul.
No the only person that has the will,determination,and the guts to make the Congress work for the Peopleis.....ME
But then again is america really ready for a President that really gives a damn about ALL the People,The Environment, Education and Healthcare and is willing to order the the things we need done,done. Until we get over our obsession with corprate asskissers and thinking the rich are the coolest people on the planet,we'll never get anything done that's not geared for that small but insanely powerful niche group. But if you really want something done;
DRAFT JEFFREY7 for Prez '08
www.youtube.com/RevJeffrey7

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not the only issue
Posted by: timeday on Feb 7, 2008 8:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have great admiration for Paul Krugman. His new book CONSCIENCE OF A LIBERAL is terrific. And Clinton may be better on health care than Obama. But that is not the only issue in this campaign and on many other Obama is a clear leader in my book. Better on the war and foreign policy, the "most liberal" senator according to the National Journal, much more inpsiring to young people, more able to win in November by gaining independent votes, not tied to the Clinton dynasty. Obama in '08!

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» RE: not the only issue Posted by: jeffrey7
MY Plan
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Feb 7, 2008 8:13 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Make Healthcare 'Always Funded', making the Fed responsible for cost overruns. Every citizen pays $10 per person in you family,just like regular health insurence, a $2 copay per office visit, $2 copay for all perscriptions.
Face lifts,breast implants,penial implants can still be private practice just like now. This is a plan for healthcare and not 'beauty surgeries'.
This plan would allow you to pick your own Doctors, no one would be excluded by age or condition. If you're sick you get help, that simple.
The people that would tell you this can't be done are the same folks that tell you we need HMO's,PPO's and all the other crap that sends you to an insurance company. I think the 9/11 bailout and Katrina has showed us that insurance companies are stealing our money for doing less than nothing except buying $10,000
coffeetables for the office and a second house in the Carribian.
We can make the country work for the People again. We can make our nation strong again.
We just have to get the thieves out of office and put someone in that's not afraid to use the power of Executive Orders to get what the People need from a Congress that wants to keep us away from it.
As they operate now, they are against everything the people need,that makes them disfunctional and against the Constitution and therefore needs to be replaced 'In order to form a more Perfect Union. I hope you can share this vision of a better America.
DRAFT Jeffrey7 for Prez
www.youtube.com/RevJeffrey7

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Voted Obama but Clinton's right on this one ....
Posted by: Minneapple on Feb 7, 2008 8:14 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There may be good reasons not to vote for Hillary, but the people who insist on their right to be uninsured and who believe they'll never need major healthcare . . . are exactly why Clinton is right in calling for mandatory health insurance. We are all one misstep, one illness, one car accident away from hugely expensive healthcare needs and when that happens WE WILL ALL PAY for those who believe they'll always be healthy and insist on their right to be uninsured. I am hoping Obama sees the light on this one--it's not for you, it's for the rest of us.

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In a word:
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Feb 7, 2008 8:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
British National Health Care Service.

How about the U.S. National Health Care Service?

Why not? There go the profit margins of the insurance, hospital and pharmaceutical companies. Hillary and Obama will simply engineer a massive insurance giveaway to their corporate cronies - a better deal than the Republican "screw you and give us your taxes" approach, but not by far.

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Let's be clear
Posted by: Merum on Feb 7, 2008 8:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's be very, very clear on one important detail that's being completely ignored here: Neither of these candidates will deliver, or ever intended to deliver universal health care.

The only candidate that would have delivered this was ignored by the mainstream media, and most of the voters, who would prefer to invest their time in the "cool" candidates who have a stronger cult of personality.

That candidate was Dennis Kucinich, co-sponsor of HR676.

Now if you've never heard of HR676, I'm not surprised. It's been ignored and suppressed by the media and killed in committee each time it's been brought up. You should go read it.

What's painfully evident is this: There will be no change from either of the stuffed shirts we're being allowed to choose from.

How did this happen?

It happened because we, as progressives, have failed. Most of us failed to study the issues. We failed to closely examine all of the candidates. We failed to look past the glitter and the amounts of money raised and the "electability" question.

It happened because we failed to demand that all of the candidates be heard equally on all of the issues. We failed to demand that all of the candidates respond clearly and completely to all of the issues.

It happened because we prefer to get our information in 10 second sound bites and 30 second debate responses. Because we prefer to spend more time discussing whether Hillary won New Hampshire because she cried.

It happened because most of us have jobs and health insurance and HDTVs and iPods and because we like the sound of universal health care, but really, as long as we still have our Blue Cross, well, it's just not worth losing all of our other cool stuff.

It happened because we don't demand better from our elected representatives, and because we don't hold them directly accountable.

It happened because we are unwilling to boycott the MSM and the corporations that choose our destiny for us. Unwilling to forgo the comforts that we are provided as the "Soma" of the new world.

It happened because we choose to wring our hands in the blogosphere rather than go out and take direct action that can't just be turned off with the flick of a switch. I hate to break this to you, but nobody who disagrees with you is listening.

It happened because people vote for candidates not based upon a thorough examination of the issues, but based instead on "I think he/she can win".

So, what do we get? We get exactly what we deserve. Two Republicans running for the Democratic nomination for President.

There can be no change, and there will be no change, as long as we sit on our collective asses and whine about it on the Internet.

We're smarter than this... or are we?

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» RE: Let's be clear Posted by: EncinoM
» Let's be clear again Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: Let's be clear again Posted by: Cooltruth
» People will get sick Posted by: B. Spoon
» RE: Let's be clear Posted by: Merum
» RE: Let's be clear Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Let's be clear Posted by: bthespoon
An other Clinton mea culpa is in the workshop
Posted by: kerttu on Feb 7, 2008 8:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On most of her dear issues Hillary is detail oriented to the last little nail but when it comes to the enforcing of her universal care policy she becomes evasive. Experience tells that when the Clintons become evasive we can look forwards to a big mea culpa. They do it so well we don't even realize how bad we have been had.
Also, I havent been able to find any information regarding other than conventional illness care.
Would preventive health care be covered ?
Would alternative illness care be covered ?

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But what if there is intelligent life in the universe?
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 7, 2008 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How does Clinton propose to enforce her mandates on life-forms that have evolved past the Wal-Mart Gimme stage of their existence?

If you follow her Iraq model, I suppose we would conquer them, occupy their planet, and extend not only "freedom and democracy", but also raze whatever system they use for healthcare--especially if it provides effectively for 85% (and you think the Iraq insurgency is bad) of the population--and further the march of ClintonCare across the universe.

It's for their own good, you see, and they are obviously too canny to provide for themselves. And they won't look much like us, probably, so we'll just know we're superior and that we Universal Govern-mentals can make better decisions over their health coverage than they ever could.

Meh. No thanks. The terrestrial version of the ambitious universal payer (everyone who pays federal income tax), single provider (The Clinton-McCain Institute) is a nice idea, as long as you never have to get sick, and enjoy paying for poor service. I don't.

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» this is so much nonsense Posted by: Drclaw
» Funny you mention Iraq Posted by: bthespoon
» "Funny". Not really. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Well the Iraqi people Posted by: bthespoon
Can she deliver?
Posted by: nomomorons on Feb 7, 2008 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excuse me, professor. You are brilliant. But you miss the importance of the uncountable: Hillary cannot/will not deliver. She, whose record is there for anyone interested in actually looking, gave us:

1. No health program rather than compromise, years ago when she served as co-president;
2. NAFTA and China policies that favor the big boys and bleed the poor;
3. "Don't ask-don't tell" appeasement to the homophobes;
4. A ruinous "welfare-to-work" program so harsh that the Republicans (who couldn't get it through under their president) cheered what ended up destroying poor, single-parent families but created substantial tax breaks for the big boys who provided them minimum-wage jobs;
5. Carte blanche to the money-makers/lenders, to consolidate their control of utilities, oil, media, financials, etc;
6. A vote to attack Iraq (killing innocents and draining our treasury, and destroying or moral standing worldwide);
7. Refusal to limit the Prez's use of that grant of power.

Now, how can anyone with a whit of imagination believe that she is suddenly one of the "little people" she pretends to champion? First, foremost, always, Hillary is with the big boys!

(Note: she has not, despite her assurances, yet been vetted. The Republicans salivate at the thought!)

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» RE: Can she deliver? Posted by: mnlefty
A simple solution
Posted by: austex_chris on Feb 7, 2008 10:08 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are a few things that will make health care work for everyone. Having a single payer system may be out of the equation given the current political climate but there are a few things that could make the entire health care system easier to live with.


-End pre-existing conditions. People should never be denied health care because of pre-existing conditions. My in-laws got divorced and my mother in-law had to go off her medications for three months because she had to switch health care providers, that is dangerous. This is just one example of how people are screwed by pre-existing conditions clauses, we need to end that madness.

-Allow Doctors to make health decisions, not insurance companies. If a licensed Dr. says a patient needs something then health insurance companies should have to allow them to get the service. I had an uncle who had to remain in pain for two years until his condition worsened to the point of emergency room treatment, the insurance company told him that the surgery he needed was elective until then.

-Insurance should not be connected to employment. Two reasons for this. First, I am a business owner, and the cost of health insurance is crippling many companies, including mine. I have one employee that I cannot get insured at all. Health costs are one of the main things driving GM into the ground right now. The second reason is that we are needlessly punishing people for making life changes. When my wife quit her job and went to law school she had to change health insurance providers. Well, she takes two medications so we lost benefits for that because they were pre-existing conditions. We also can't get maternity coverage for her at all. Also, I had an uncle who was laid off. While he was searching for a new job he got sick but could not afford to get treatment for his condition, his insurance refused to pay because they claimed it was elective, claiming that he could live with the pain, but he was too sick to look for work then ended up having to drop his insurance because he couldn't afford it. Finally he was treated in an emergency room months later, and he was unable to pay his bill. This is a vicious cycle that many people find themselves in.

-Make premiums proportional to pay. Look, a teacher making $36,000 a year should not have to pay the same amount as a lawyer making $120k a year. Yes, I would probably pay more than most people in my family but I also make more and I think that is fair. Good health is a right, not a privilege, and I believe Americans have the right to be healthy.

-End the network system. Insurance companies make a bundle establishing their 'networks.' We live in a mobile society, I should never have to worry about seeking medical attention from the proper network. If I need a hospital I should be able to go to the closest one to me. Also these insurance companies bully their network partners into denying their patients care to save money.

-Medical Bills should never show up on credit reports. Americans should not have to worry about losing their home, or declaring bankruptcy because of medical bills. If someone goes to the hospital because they have a health emergency they should not be punished later with bone crushing bills. This even happens to people that have health insurance. I once ended up going to the hospital when I was away from home. Little did I know that there were no hospitals 'in-network' in the state I was visiting. My visit ended up costing me $5000. I wanted to use that money to expand my business, but poof, it was gone into medical bills just like that.

Now, if reforms can be made to the current system to meet these needs then great. If we need to get a government based program, fine. Republican, Democrat, I don't care I just want change and so should everyone else.

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Making the Romney plan national?????
Posted by: RegK on Feb 7, 2008 11:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't Hillary's proposal just making Romney's Massachusetts plan--that requires people to buy private insurance--national?

It's long past time for single-payer in the US, folks. No more cushy deals and give-aways to the insurance and pharma industries.

And is it even Constitutional (a quaint idea, I know) to mandate that people buy something from a private purveyor? Governmental mandates should be administered by the government. And if you've ever received healthcare in Europe or Canada, you know how much better that system really is!

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Thebigkate
Posted by: Thebigkate on Feb 7, 2008 12:16 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I cannot believe that NOBODY has yet mentioned that Hillary takes money, lots of money, from Big Pharma!!! Barack takes none. Now think about that! Who is going to have an easier time formulating health care legislation without being beholden to the major players who keep driving up our astronomical healthcare costs???

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» You missed it. Posted by: bthespoon
Nice try Clintonite
Posted by: MobileSucks on Feb 7, 2008 12:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, I guess I'm going to vote for Hillary Clinton then. Thanks Mr. Krugman for helping me to better understand the difference between the Obama and Clinton health care plans.

Oh, wait a second. Geez, it's funny ya know, how forgetful we can be. Maybe it's just a tendency to have a selective memory when it comes to your leaders or party. (We can all be that way.) I just remembered the 90s and how the first Clinton slammed the door shut on "the progressive agenda", is the thing here. 8 long years of Clinton and his wife and the DLC agenda and their "triangulating" and enacting essentially a Republican agenda and you want more and they want more. I really would prefer not to be bullshitted by the exact same people again. No more repeats in the White House anymore. It's like that movie Groundhog Day with all these Bushes and Clintons. It's enough to make you want better health care coverage so you can go to a good shrink to make sure your not going crazy. Let some other fraud in this time.

Watch Hillary Clinton do everything good "conservatives" want done, even if she were to get anywhere with her health care plan this time. And I'm not convinced it's overall better than Obama's.

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Peacemaker
Posted by: YogiBear on Feb 7, 2008 1:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Less important than what her plan or his plan is is what either of them can get through congress. I think Obama may end up playing peacemaker to a lot of people and in part because of that I plan to throw my vote in for him in the primary.

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I think the last sentence in this article,
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Feb 7, 2008 1:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
instead of reading "there is some chance we'll get universal health care in the next administration" should more accurately say "there is some chance that the insurance company leeches, with the help of the government, will get to sell universal health care to all in the next administration", as that is hillary's main goal. Kucinich's plan was a real plan for the people, where hillary's and obama's are for the scumbags who will give them campaign donations to make them reelectable, the only thing hillary cares about. (not too sure about Obama, but at least he won't march us off to war!)

And let me add, is prolonged war with Iraq and a possible new war with Iran (if bush doesn't do it first) worth getting the insurance companies new policies? I think not. Screw sell-out warmonger hillary and her hidden agenda!!!

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Censored Alternet?
Posted by: Cathyc on Feb 7, 2008 2:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No point commenting on Alternet anymore, since posts are erased now!

Its been nice knowing y'all... Goodnight and good luck!

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NY Times agenda
Posted by: djgrae on Feb 7, 2008 2:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Paul Krugman is a mouthpiece for the Times, and they are endorsing Clinton, lets keep that in mind.

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Conscience of a Clintonite
Posted by: MobileSucks on Feb 7, 2008 2:51 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Funny thing that "The Conscience of a Liberal"
like Krugman is seemingly untroubled by the plight of victims of US foreign policy. Unfair? Not if you support Hillary. Liberals can be daft! They're convinced they are always the good guys! We are some bastards at this point. I've heard it said more than once -- the world has gotten pretty sick of all our bullshit. They used to say the US govenment is bad, but "we like the American people" That's changed folks. We better be getting worried about our health! You think 9-11 is a one time deal? The time has come for us to recognize this. The world doesn't care if it's a woman, a Democrat, a Republican, a black -- if your an Imperialist war-monger and you attack other countries.

Nice for us to maybe get some health care though. MAYBE. And there will be a huge, HUGE price to pay for it. Compromise as always with the Right will come in what form for our precious Hillary health care plan? Privatization of Social Security? Who would doubt Clinton is capable of completely selling out on virtually anything. But then again, she always was pretty right-wing.

People like Krugman make me sick.

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Hillary's Plan Is A Gift To Insurance Industry
Posted by: NABNYC on Feb 7, 2008 3:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I generally like Paul Krugman, but I think his analysis of the Hillary plan is missing the big point. Hillary will order everyone to buy their own insurance. Like we already have to. So where's the "reform"??

The insurance industry is being given a captive audience, which is worth untold billions to them. No restrictions on the cost of premiums, by the way. I already buy my own health insurance, and I already can't afford it. Like most people I know.

Hillary's plan is like saying she will cure hunger by ordering people to buy and eat food. Solve the problem of the homeless by ordering people to rent apartments. It's silly. The big "solution" is to order people to go out and pay a fortune to buy something that they can't afford.

Maybe Krugman's focus is on the uninsured. Mine isn't. Mine is on working people, like me, who are being killed by nonstop premium increases.

We should have single payor. Or let everyone buy into the Medicare system, premiums adjusted by age and income, and phase out at 65.

Edwards had a tax credit in his plan: whatever you pay for health insurance is deducted from your tax bill. That also is a good deal.

Hillary is receiving contributions from the insurance industry because she is going to deliver to them millions of new captive consumers -- people compelled by law to give money to the insurance companies. This is not "reform." This is just more bribes into the Clinton coffers.

What will people do if they just cannot afford it? Maybe Krugman doesn't understand the realities. Minimum wage workers make under $1,000/month, yet insurance premiums are $200/month. How can they afford that? They can't.

I guess under Hillary's plan the terribly poor will be helped by the government, but the majority will continue to be gouged by the for-profit insurance industry, the obscenely over-charging doctors, hospitals, and drug companies, who continue to provide grossly deficient health care to the people of this country.

At least Obama is a fan of single payor (which Hillary attacks) and, I think, understands the truth: people don't have healthcare because they can't afford it. That is the problem.

We don't need a bad mommy Hillary telling all the bad boys and girls to eat their peas and pay the health insurance premiums. The solution to the problem is to knock down the prices of everyone in the system, and then have the government pay for it. It's a money problem, not a lack of interest or willingness by the public.

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Mandating bad health insurance coverage is not the answer either
Posted by: daa4 on Feb 7, 2008 4:20 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Health insurance companies are a business that make money off limiting and making decisions on what type of care their customers receive. Mandating everyone to receive poor health insurance coverage from an insurance company will turn people off to the idea of universal health care because they will still be receiving bad care.

People want good, affordable, and smart health care. Health insurance companies do not fulfill any of these requirements with the customer in mind but only fulfill the company's ambitions.

One option for Clinton or Obama is to have an extension of medicare to everyone who chooses with the hopes of eventually having gov't issurance (medicare) replace private insurance all together. One of the first steps to this happening is to have politicans not accept money from insurance companies or drug companies.

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A More Balanced View.
Posted by: kutastha on Feb 7, 2008 5:16 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that Mr. Krugman is a Clinton supporter, though I cannot be sure. Obviously, the NYT has endorsed Clinton, so this article may have been chosen for publication based upon its pro-Clinton stance. Consider the viewpoint of Dr. Robert Reich, Professor of Public Policy at UC Berkeley.

californiaprogressreport.com/2008/01/democrats_shoul.html

According to Dr. Reich, Obama has not rejected the use of a universal mandate outright, but believes such a mandate should not be considered or implemented until the cost of health insurance has been successfully reduced. Sen. Obama has a more modest first step which requires that all children be properly insured. There is clearly value in this commitment. As Sen. Obama has emphasized, the cost of health insurance won't be reduced overnight. The mandated health insurance premiums (cost) would depend upon the kinds of services covered, the annual deductible, and co-pay rates. Sen. Clinton has not clearly explained whether government subsidies would fully offset the costs of purchasing insurance for lower income individuals. Bottomline: There are many gaps in both Sen. Clinton's and Sen. Obama's explanations of their plans. As John Edwards noted during his campaign, Sen. Clinton's proposal does not explain how she would enforce the proposed insurance mandate. The CATO Institute seems opposed to the idea of mandates while many others think highly of mandates. This is a very difficult issue even for the informed voter to comprehend.

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The "Free Market" Argument
Posted by: meetmeineleusis on Feb 7, 2008 5:22 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know, I see a lot of people opposed to universal health care because it goes against the free market.

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea of a free market is quite beautiful in theory, but in practice, however, it remains a pipe dream.

A free market assumes you have a well informed, reasonably intelligent populace that can figure out maybe they shouldn't be buying crap from corporations that screw them.

Well, your typical American is dumb as shit and believes everything that comes out of the "Teevee" to be gospel truth. (After all, it came from the TV hurrrhurrr!!)

Then there's the issue of corporate kickbacks, incentives, tax shelters, etc.

How can a free market function if corporations always have their hand in the government cookie jar?

Why is it the people who scream the loudest for free market economics always seem to conveniently overlook socialism for the elites, but decry socialism for the little guy?

How is capitalism able to function when our government has made it their role to consistently bail out shit companies whose board of directors make decisions that drive said companies into the ground?

I haven't seen a doctor in almost a decade. I need to see a doctor. Man, I could really use some of that "KOMMANIST" cheneycare right now.

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» and... Posted by: meetmeineleusis
Something for Nothing
Posted by: ph54 on Feb 7, 2008 5:17 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans want health care on par with Europe or Canada, but no one wants to pay for it. We fight against paying higher taxes for better health care. We only grumble when insurance rates go up There are numerous government mandates that cost us money (auto insurance for one, mortgage insurance for another). We as American simply hold dearer the value of our possessions than the value of our health.
Some are arrogant enough to believe that their good health has a guarantee.
Cost benefit basis, Hillary's plan is better than Barak's which is better than what we face now. Neither plan, hers or his, is perfect and neither will be what they now are after going through the political machine that is congress.

Hillary gets slammed for not compromising in '93 and she gets slammed for not fighting hard enough in '93. She gets hammered for not passing any legislation in the 90's when she wasn't even an elected official as well as getting involved in the first place because of her position. If she can't be trusted because she's a politician than we can't trust anyone running for office. She's blamed for the GOP takeover of congress in '94 but remember this: We opted for anti war candidate in '68 then got Nixon, we opted for righteous change with Carter in '76 then ended up with Reagan in '80. (yes Reagan was a disaster)
For a man running on bringing people together, Baraks' supporters are more vitriolic than Romney. Save it for McCain, because the Rove machine will be in high gear. That 18-25 yr group tidal wave support for Barak in January will likely be a trickle come November. They'll never show in numbers until we have a draft. Kusinich had the plan and the record Obama's supporters crave. Too bad they didn't have the backbone for change.

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» Putrid and pathetic Posted by: jmooney
Nanny Statism
Posted by: jmooney on Feb 7, 2008 5:57 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sure, you can insure everyone if you REQUIRE everyone to buy insurance AND threaten to confisicate their paychecks if they don't do it.

Come on. This is nanny statism at its worst.

Hillary took a shot at health care in the 90s and botched it by keeping deliberations secretive and making it such a convoluted product that she painted a big "kick me" sign on her proposal, which the Republicans were so willing to do.

Turn the page. Stop committing acts of insanity by doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

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what about and so many people I know?
Posted by: baba on Feb 7, 2008 6:16 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I live pay check to pay check and I do not want to be taxed for health care. The last thing I ever want is to be forced to buy into some corporate government health care plan that ultimately will not take care of my health in the ways that I personally need. I use herbs, nutrition, exercise and accupunture to keep myself in my optimum health, and it works. The only time I might need to go to a doctor is if I were to need surgery or something like that. Actually, my city has a program for low income people and uninsured people which involves collecting donations and organizing compassionate doctors who volunteer their time to provide surgeries, etc. It's quite an amazing program that really works. However, the few times I have visited a doctor recently, I have not had very positive experiences, and some doctors just want to hand our prescriptions as quickly as possible, which is fine if it is really needed, but what about preventative care?! Health insurance of any kind if this country has nothing to do with prevention and optimum health, it's about drugs and more drugs. If health care were truly universal and truly about health care it could cover other means of health care, like accupunture, massage, herbs, and maybe even gym memberships! Hillary's plan is completely elitist and it has nothing to do with someone like me, in fact it would be quite upsetting to have this 'universal health care' forced into my life. Kucinich seems to have the best option and ideas so far. But right now Obama has my vote.

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Who is the more experienced and who is being naive?
Posted by: radical53 on Feb 7, 2008 7:08 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's correct this one real quick. Hillary's plan covers absolutely noone! There is no way she can ever get her plan through Congress with universal coverage and government mandates for all. She can fight and fight until she is out of politics, but it just won't happen. Furthermore, no Clinton-esque politician will ever win a large enough Congressional majority to push through big changes. Let's face reality for a change.

Obama's plan has a chance of being adopted, albeit with some difficult negotiation and compromise.

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Missing the whole point
Posted by: gexrobert on Feb 7, 2008 8:12 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article should be about the need for Universal Health Care, the kind that every other civilized country in the world has, not some insurance fraud foisted on the US citizens by the likes of Hilary or Obama.


Wake UP AMERICA, these people are nothing but a looting operation for the Insurance-Pharma-Medical Complex in America. Health care should be free, provided by the government. Maybe if you did not have to spend over a trillion a year in tax dollars supporting the Military Industrial Complex with endless wars, you might actually have enough money to give the citizens of the USA something in return for their tax dollars, namely free health care.

The way things stand; we are all only one medical emergency away from the poorhouse, with or without health insurance. Obama and Hillary are just more of this same old looting operation.

Robert Gex

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Clinton Blather is Worthless
Posted by: OrwellMan on Feb 7, 2008 9:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing Billary promises will mean anything after the election. This pair gives snake oil a bad name...

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WAKE THE FUCK UP
Posted by: Winston2 on Feb 7, 2008 10:54 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The so-called "universal healthcare" will entail mandatory participation thus guaranteeing profits for private insurance companies. This is what you will get from hillary and obama. Only active non-participation will bring it to its knees...only defunding the federal gov will bring these gangsters to their knees.

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Where's the Real Mandate?
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Feb 8, 2008 3:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since NO President, no matter who they are, will ever sign an Executive Order for Universal Health Care, it matters not who is President with respect to THIS issue.

Congress will ultimately have to sign on to this issue. There will be a huge bureaucracy that will have to be fit into this new 'deal', so they will have to be on board.

And you know they'll never be able to get the votes.

This issue is dead. It is moot. The US has been designed around health + profit for decades. It's not going to be dismantled. YOU aren't going to get universal health care no matter which Dem is in office.

I laugh at people's folly even considering this as a possibility.

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Krugman obviously knows nothing of economics on the street.
Posted by: mbruton on Feb 8, 2008 1:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, when I am forced to buy my health care and my employer has stopped offering it they will of course increase wages across the board in order to make sure I can afford it right?

Fat freakin chance!

This is just another thinly veiled way socialize corporate profits.

This is just like the situation that occurred when women entered the job market in much greater numbers, a great thing right? Except that now corporations can pay lower wages since nearly all families earn two incomes. So what we really achieved is the right of corporations to have two people per family slaving away at 40 hours+ a week each for what amounts to a single salary split between them.

Paul Krugman has obviously joined forces with those who would siphon off every penny you have and give it to the richfilth (themselves).

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Forcing Americans to enrich Insurers
Posted by: drblack on Feb 8, 2008 2:54 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No way!!!! Until the profit is done away with for medical insurance this is a bad idea which reeks of tyranny.
There is no need for profit when it comes to a big pot of public money.
I will NOT buy into this and will not vote for another Clinton.
The Clintons are sold out to big money and this proves it beyond a doubt.

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Let's face it
Posted by: SallyD on Feb 8, 2008 3:28 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's face it, whether we get Hillary or Obama, they will probably sign whatever Congress can send them. As we saw when Hillary tried last time, having one person at the top with a nice idea gets you nowhere unless there is the will in congress to put together a package. We need to all work on our Representatives and Senators. Tell them what we want (single payer not for profit, for me) and tell them to get to work!

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SEVENTY PERCENT OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SAID THAT IT WAS TIME FOR THE FEDERAL
Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Feb 8, 2008 10:23 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
government to get involved in health care back in 1992, 93, and 94. Guess what the THIRTY PERCENT WON. We now have a 90-10 split. What do you want to bet that the ten percent win?

At some point we are going to have to take this country back.

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HR 676 Universal Health Care For All
Posted by: jacksmith on Feb 8, 2008 10:40 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bottom Line:

Like all of you. I know that health care is the most critical, and important issue facing the American people. Now, and in the coming elections. And like the vast majority of the American people, I want HR 676 (Medicare For All) passed into law NOW! "Single payer, Tax Supported, Not For Profit, True Universal Health Care" free for all as a right. Like every other developed country in the world has. See: http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676.htm

“HR 676:
For church goers: less money to insur. companies and more to the church- lots more.
Srs on Medicare: save way over $100/wk. Because no more medigap, long term care & dental insur. needed. No more drug bills.”

But if we the American people fail to bring enough pressure on our current politicians to get HR 676 passed into law before the elections. We will have to identify, and replace all the politicians standing in the way of passage of HR 676. And, I think the best first place to start is with the politicians that blocked the bipartisan SCHIP bills for the kids. Passed by congress four times.

But what about the President. It was Bush after all that blocked the bipartisan SCHIP bill passed by congress to assure more health coverage for Americas kids. So which of the presidential hopefuls do I think will be most supportive of implementing the demand of the majority of the American people to have HR 676 (Medicare For All) passed into law immediately!

We have some very fine presidential candidates who would make good presidents. But none of the top Presidential candidates directly support HR 676, the only true Universal Health Care plan. So I am supporting Hillary Clinton. She is the only top candidate that has ever actually fought for universal health care before.

I have enormous admiration, and respect for Hillary Clinton. She fought a pitched battle against overwhelming odds back in 1993. To prevent this disastrous health care crisis that is now devastating the American people, and America. She fought so hard for the American people that she risk almost completely destroying her husbands presidency. I haven't forgotten her heroic effort. If any Presidential hopeful for universal health care deserves my support, it's her.

Also, if we the American people fail to bring enough pressure on our government to give us HR 676 which we all so desperately need NOW! Then we will need the most skilled politician we can get on our side to broker the best health care plan for the American people that we can get. Though it will be less than we need, and less than we deserve. The politician I think to best do this is Hillary Clinton. The Clinton's are probably the most skilled politicians in American history.

The insurance industry, and medical industry that has been ripping you off, and killing you has given Hillary Clinton so much money because they fear her. They have also given Barack Obama so much money because they fear Hillary Clinton. They think they can manipulate Barack Obama against the best interest of the American people better than they can manipulate Hillary Clinton. There is no race issue with Hillary Clinton. The Clinton's are the poster family for how African Americans want white people to be towards African Americans.

As always, African Americans are suffering, and dieing in this health care crisis at a much higher rate than any other group in America. The last time there was any significant drop in the African American death rate was when Bill Clinton was president.

My fellow Americans, you are dieing needlessly at an astounding rate. In higher numbers than any other people in the developed world. Rich, and poor a like. Insured, and uninsured. Young, and old. Men, women, children, and babies. And we the American people must stop it. And fix it NOW! Keep Fighting!!! Never! give up hope.

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whos gonna treat the patients?
Posted by: lesterliu on Feb 8, 2008 11:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
im surprised that not a single candidates has ever metioned about reducing the barriers of getting into medical schools so that more trained professionals could join the health care workforce.
Universal health care, what a perfect campaign slogan, just like 'three strikes and ur out' 'zero tolerance'. But this doesnt address the problems that deeply rooted in our lives. I could imagine it would take maybe more than 10 years before any substantial improvement can be made for healthcare industry. however, the first step we can take towards that goal should be reducing the costs, driving out private interests,and inaugurating transparancy. making it mandatory for ppl to buy some valueless cheapshot insurance is pointless.we should agree that both candidates' plans have to be revisited in different degrees when he/she is sworn into office. Hillary's plan sounds more farfetching to me. Obama's initial plan may not be very inticing at this stage, however reducing the costs seems to be a tangible measure and the first step we should take if we really wants to see some changes happening in the long run. I rest my case.

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Where do we find the money to pay for it?
Posted by: bthespoon on Feb 9, 2008 6:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We look where the money is going now to see if there's any fraud, waste and/or abuse. If we do that, we end up right at the footsteps of where billions of our health care dollars are being wasted, millions of sick Americans abused, and promises of health care implied but fraudulently refused: the health insurance industry. This single entitiy is at the head of the fraud, waste and abuse pack by billions of miles, American lives, and dollars. It would be a very patriotic thing for us to unite together for our own best interests.

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Health coverage vs. health care
Posted by: AlterEg0 on Feb 10, 2008 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do we have to fall prey to private corporations, and purchase health coverage that most of us cannot afford - and by the way, at the "affordable" level it won't cover much of anything, when we could have "cover all" universal single payer health care for fraction of the cost. Why do we even argue about it? Are we so dumb anymore that we fall for lies EVERY FRICKING TIME?

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I need: Universal healthcare and exit Iraq and an end to immigration raids
Posted by: laura_ferrer8888 on Feb 10, 2008 2:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama's healthcare plan is worse than Clinton's.

Obama may get all US military personnel out of Iraq. Clinton authorized an attack on Iran.

Obama wants to pass comprehensive immigration reform his first year. Clinton does not

Unless we demand the changes we want, no change will occur.

As a feminist, I happen to believe that Obama will be less of an obstacle to the changes I want and need than Clinton. That's why I voted for Obama and will donate to him again.

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Health vs Health Insurance
Posted by: drjon on Feb 10, 2008 10:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a wide and amazing range of comments and opinions about this topic.

There is one other aspect that is worth thinking about. Health insurance is designed for neither, that is, it does not generate health, nor does it insure one's health. Rather, it is used when there is disease.

So, what would happen to "health insurance" if we could improve real health, not even get to "disease," or at least get there much less often?

It would be a step ahead if we had a powerful and accurate tool to determine more accurately health status.

There is one worth looking at here.

Of course, once we determined our health status more accurately, we would then have to actually do what it takes to get healthier, but that is another issue altogether!

Blessings,

Dr Jon

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Support HR676: who cares what the candidates say!
Posted by: MFox1948 on Feb 11, 2008 1:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.hr676.org/

Go to the above website and be a part Single Payer Health Care in America! Forget what Obama or Clinton kisses and promises. This is an existing bill in Congress that when enacted will provide FULL coverage to all citizens in the US via a single payer plan.

This would eliminate 40% of all bankruptcy cases, eliminate a much anxiety and just be the right thing to do. Every other industrial nation in the world provides this basic human right. It is now time for America to join the rest of the civilized world!

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Principle policy difference?
Posted by: healinghawk on Feb 12, 2008 4:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is Paul Krugman reading?

Health care is the major policy difference between Hillary and Obama? Get real.

Obama doesn't take money from PACs and lobbyists. Hillary never met one to which she didn't put out her hand. A cursory Google search yields page upon page of corruption reports on Hillary. Of course, it's legal. It's still corrupt, and Obama doesn't do it.

The primary policy difference between Hillary and Obama is in their ethics.

Obama's health care bill won't garnishee wages if people don't buy health insurance.

Full coverage is worth what cost?

Tommy Tolson
Austin, TX

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