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Health & Wellness

Is Living Longer Worth It?

By Ronald Bailey, Reason Magazine. Posted September 28, 2007.


If you could live to be 1,000, would you? One writer explores the latest in longevity science.
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CHICAGO -- In advance of the World Transhumanist Society's annual confab, Transvision 2007, the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies (IEET) held a pre-conference meeting in a non-descript ballroom at the Fairmont Hotel. The room was packed with 50 or so people interested in the issue of securing the "longevity dividend." Not everyone in the audience would call themselves "transhumanists" but all were interested in figuring out how to sell longer lives to the public. This was not a crowd of wild-eyed utopians. The audience was diverse -- about one third women and two-thirds men, and ranged from doctors, professors, and economists to people who had lived in alternative communities and even a few high school students. One might think that longer, healthier lives should be an easy sell, but, in fact, there are people who believe that dramatically extending human lives would be a bad idea.

I attended the IEET conference as a speaker, to give a talk on the political economy of the longevity dividend. What is the longevity dividend? It's a way of rebranding the quest for extending human lives in a politically palatable way. The idea behind the longevity dividend was expressed in an article in The Scientist which argued that research should be directly targeted at slowing the aging process by seven years. As University of Illinois-Chicago demographer Jay Olshansky put it at the conference: It is a new paradigm for health promotion and disease prevention in the 21st century. Olshansky, one of the co-authors of the article in The Scientist unveiling the campaign to push for the longevity dividend, argues that slowing the aging process by seven years would mean that age-related diseases-cancer, cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer's-would be cut in half at every age. "If we succeed in delaying aging, the bonuses will be an extension of healthy life and a drastic reduction in health care costs," said Olshansky.

Olshansky argues that the old paradigm of directly targeting diseases is about to run out of steam. Even if all cancer, all heart disease and all diabetes were eliminated, it would add only 3 more years to average life expectancy in the United States. So if researchers want to achieve big gains in lifespan and healthspan they have to go after the aging process itself. For adults the doubling time for risk of death is seven years. If you slow aging by seven years, you cut the risk of death at any age in half, and cut the risk everything else that goes wrong with the body in half too. The idea is not to make people older longer, but to make them younger longer. Not being libertarians, Olshansky and other advocates for the longevity dividend want to reprogram $3 billion in federal biomedical research to target aging itself.

At the conference, David Meltzer, a medical economist from the University of Chicago, warned that the longevity dividend could have downsides too. For example, one should consider what follow on costs may flow any particular intervention. For example, someone is saved from a heart attack, he or she may now live long enough to get cancer which could cost more to treat. In addition, Meltzer noted that most analyses of the benefits of medical interventions measure only future medical costs. But that fails to account for total costs by including future consumption -- food, clothing, housing -- in the calculations as well.

Meltzer also argued that quality of life must be included in the calculations of net benefits and costs stemming from medical interventions. For example, Meltzer showed various interventions that were cost-effective, e.g., influenza vaccinations, and treating 40-55 year-old men for high cholesterol provided more benefits than costs. However, treating a 75 year-old with late-stage colon cancer does not -- their quality of life is terrible and the very costly treatment will likely add only few months of extra life. Meltzer was not amused by my comment that when you take into account all of the money spent on health care, that the cheapest patient is a dead patient. In the end, after all of his cautions, Meltzer acknowledged that most current health interventions that increase life expectancy are worthwhile in terms of medical cost effectiveness.

My own talk looked at research done by two University of Chicago economists, Kevin Murphy and Robert Topel, who tried to put a dollar figure on the value of health and longevity. I began by pointing out that the quest for longer healthier lives has some formidable opponents, including Johns Hopkins University professor and author of Our Posthuman Future, Francis Fukuyama, bioethicist Daniel Callahan, and former chairman of President Bush's Council on Bioethics, Leon Kass. Opposition to slowing the approach of the grim reaper also got a hearing the mainstream with The Atlantic Monthly's 2005 article decrying, "The Coming Death Shortage." Of course, they are wrong.


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See more stories tagged with: mortality, lifespan, longevity, aging

Ronald Bailey is Reason Magazine's science correspondent. His new book, Liberation Biology: A Moral and Scientific Defense of the Biotech Revolution will be published in early 2005.

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I find this longevity science interesting and hope to hear more
Posted by: jparsons on Sep 28, 2007 1:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the meantime, I will continue with my no-cholesterol,
high-fiber, high-nutrient vegan diet.

The people who use this diet look great as they age, not like
most of their detractors.

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» Geez, I just don't know... Posted by: jparsons
It's important that this issue start to be discussed publicly
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 28, 2007 1:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any significant extention to the human lifespan will have a major impact on society.

It's important that the years gained are quality years. Not "extended decrepitude". Otherwise, it might prove to be more of a curse than a blessing.

Some extra years could certainly help women "have it all"; to have and raise children, and yet still have a full career.

Being vigorous to one hundred could let one sample more of life and change careers with regret, too.

If we start to live too long, though, the structure of society will change. There will be fewer youth and young adults, who often provide much of the drive and energy. Society might lose vitality.

Plenty to think about.

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We are not meant to live forever!
Posted by: Lizmv on Sep 28, 2007 2:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Death is a part of life. Humans are part of the natural cycle of birth - life - death. This is how the Earth renews itself. Just as the cells withing our bodies die off and are renewed, we humans need to accept that we cannot and should not live forever.

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» RE: We are not meant to live forever! Posted by: parmenicleitus
How will the society survive I wonder?
Posted by: Smartcookie on Sep 28, 2007 3:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can see longevity as the next thing to spark civil discontent, unrest and perhaps even war.

Think about all those poor people who will be sentenced to death because of scarcity and lack of affordability, I don't think market relations will stand up under the strain, why should someone obey the rules if they have a shorter lifespan then a rich person? That is a severe imbalance of power.

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» This is already the case. Posted by: Coleman
Interesting Read
Posted by: dreamk1 on Sep 28, 2007 3:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Check out Bruce Sterling's Holy Fire. It may be fiction, but he brings up some interesting ideas about humanity's desire to extend life. Personally, I'm going to try an extend my lifespan for as long as I can.

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like the burning of the library at alexandria
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Sep 28, 2007 3:43 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the only thing we really miss is the collected knowledge/perspective of life that is lost when someone dies.
that, and being able to ride it out on grandmas social security until she passed.

however, for most of us, who really wants the other guy to outlive you? sure, we'd all like to have the last thing on EVERYONE in high school who treated you like you were some sort of freak. and now they're ALL DEAD. i really hated you all, i'd say, shaking my fist at the last of them as sharon dwiggins is lowered into the cold earth on a great spring morning!

if you enjoy life, enjoy the people around you (or enjoy being alone, in the dark, just waiting) the IDEA of living longer seems the way to go.

*buys ticket*

*machine jams*

but, there are those who, in pain in body or mind, who would choose otherwise. i value the dignity of that choice. especially in others.

bush is leading us along a path similar to HITLER's germany! (*Fact:every 'comments' portion of an article in alternet must eventually have this reference from a reader or the comments are closed and it is removed from the archives).

the thought, of living longer, living forever, or, as we really are set up to do: ignore the fact we are born dying, opens a door for thinking of great things, making great plans, writing plays, swimming, jogging and bicycling (at least that's what this feminine product package says on the side). most of us are just getting to understand life. and then we die. that's what's most sad. that's what we really would like to change.

life is amazing. but then again, there's always hitler.


*is a complete fabrication (but feel that material! geddit? fabrication? Material? Fabric-ation?

*punts*

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Freddie Mercury said it best...
Posted by: whathaway on Sep 28, 2007 4:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"..who wants to live forever..."

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It depends ...
Posted by: kelt65 on Sep 28, 2007 4:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1000? I can't say. If I could be 25 for 100 years? hell yes. If I were to be 75 for 100 years? Fuck no!

Obviously this would have some serious ramifications.

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It's also a question of living economically productive lives
Posted by: akai ringo on Sep 28, 2007 5:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As one comment has already pointed out, any significant addition to the present life span should be in "quality years", not in "extended decrepitude", but I suggest that it is also important that additional years should be economically productive years. I don't know what the position is in the U.S., but here in Japan, where I live, the entire socio-economic infrastructure is still built largely round the concept of retirement at 60 or 65, and sometimes even at 55. Politicians and judges, as the people who make and administer the laws and the socio-legal infrastructure, can go on working for decades after this, but ordinary working people are bound by regulations. And this is in a country which is currently looking at what is likely to be a very long-term decline in its population. Last year, I was offered a part-time teaching position to supplement the one I hold. I had all the qualifications and experience required, and the terms and conditions suited me perfectly, but the next day I was asked my age. On discovering that I was 66, my friend had to apologize and withdraw the offer because I was "too old". On a broader scale, I don't know of any government, much less the Japanese government, that has even begun to think seriously about the changes to tax systems, pensions, working practices, etc, etc, that would be required to enable society to cope with an extension of even a few decades, much less a few hundred years.

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» my guess is... Posted by: Coleman
I wonder
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Sep 28, 2007 5:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.. I wonder... its taken making the world a thoroughly shitty place with a befouled environment on the verge of collapse and the creation of a violent and sick society where people are wholly benumbed, disconnected both from nature and from each other, and where so many sit in offices or factories most of the day for most of our lives just to get to an average lifespan closing in on 80. What kind of world would we have to live with to get anywhere near 1000?

Of course some people want to live as long as possible, no matter how unrealistic.... they have no time to actually live once they've taken care of their job responsibilities.

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same ole, same ole
Posted by: danny6126 on Sep 28, 2007 5:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Clearly, technology to extend "life" will not be kindly extended to those living in poverty in the US and around the world. As it stands, food, technology, kindness, military and humanitarian aid are not extended to such people now. It has difficult enough to get HIV/AIDS medicines to Africa on the cheap as it stands. Can anyone seriously think that there will be a sudden burst of generosity by those in the techno-biological complex to keep poor, dark-skinned people alive longer?

The vocabulary of the discussion is all-telling: cost-benefit analysis, GDP; consumption. What we'll have is situations where people like GWB, Cheney and cronies will be living 20 and 30 years longer than they might have, consequently giving them the opportunity extend their privilege, influence and power over additional decades. Instead of thinking about the next 4 or 8 years in office, then can plan for 30 or 40 years ahead in the actions they take.

I see we get more of the same in selective longevity which ultimately exacerbates the pain of living longer.

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» pfft! i suggest term limits Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
Sure, let's keep people around a lot longer...
Posted by: Trazom on Sep 28, 2007 5:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a world that is becoming increasingly hostile to live in due to global warming, a large belligerent, fascist military nation-state (the US) bent on collecting ever more power, and God knows what other disasters awaiting us thanks to our mass consumption lifestyle.

This article doesn't make any sense because it fails to consider what life will be like for anyone outside of themselves.

Why don't we clean up the mess around us first before we decide to expose ourselves to more of it?

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Speaking From Beyond the Grave.
Posted by: grumble-bum on Sep 28, 2007 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is, of course, a fascinating subject. It could be argued that one of the major things that distinguishes us from other animals is our knowledge of death & our deep desire to avoid or postpone it.

A few years ago, I was given a "new lease on life". More than a decade of severe drug & alcohol abuse had in many ways reduced my Thirty-odd year old body to that of someone much older. I was facing general organ failure & nerve damage. My physical mobility & mental faculties were both heavily compromised. My thinking had narrowed into a constricting tunnel, & I felt weary & used up. I was preparing myself for death.

In a sense, chronologically, I was about to die at roughly the age that most Humans throughout history have expected to. On a certain level, I was resigned to this. I made a choice to keep living, however, & (although mostly very happy & grateful for that choice) I now often feel like some ancient person on their death-bed who has been given a new body & a doubled lifespan.

Sometimes this is very strange. Not unlike stepping into someone else's life in an alternate universe. I would imagine that prolonging life expectancy across the board might have similar mental effects for the first batch of recipients, although perhaps not so dramatically.

I would hazard a guess that the majority of people really pushing for longevity enhancements are probably currently in their late Fifties. They are old enough to be looking down over the hill, & they are watching their parents die off (thanks in part to existing "improvements" in longevity, many of them in extended sessions of painful & humiliating stop-gap treatments & lingering illnesses). They are likely also, as a previous poster noted, to be people who will be able to afford the miracle treatments & daily therapies required to tack on those extra seven-odd years. Most of us won't, & I doubt the government/industry will be handing out the meds for free.

So, on the one hand, we'll surely see an increase in length (if not actual quality) of life, & all the benefits that that can bring. But we'll probably also see an increased divide along class lines, an artificially extended retirement age (ugh), & endless articles about how great this all is by those who get to enjoy it. & fifty-year-old adolescents!

To me, a more simple answer might be to expend our energies to make life better for people in the lifespan we have, while learning ways to grapple with inevitable death in a more constructive fashion. But then, what do I know- I've got my whole (second) life ahead of me!

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"Death is a disease...and I will find the cure!"
Posted by: OneAcre2012 on Sep 28, 2007 5:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why when I look into this version of the future do I see a handful of ridiculously wealthy 1000-year-olds sipping tea on the stacked swaths of carcasses of the less fortunate, who still have "miserably short" lives? What we're looking at is almost a separate species of long-living humanoids divergent entirely based on economy. And this doesn't get into the ramifications for our beautiful planet. Poor thing, she'll just hurl more tsunamis at them.

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» Quote From "Superman: Red Son?" Posted by: pdxstudent
AN IRRATIONAL FEAR OF DEATH IS DRIVING THIS BIZARRE MOVEMENT
Posted by: drricklippin on Sep 28, 2007 5:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ron Bailey- I'll buy and read your book

But it is death itself that gives life its very meaning!

The SINGLE most important way our young nation can finally mature is through open dialogue on and coming to grips with the death and dying issue. I'm absolutely convinced of this.

The technology hype about longevity extension for exceeds the existing science.

I call myself a "quality of life doctor" who fully recognizes that, paradoxicallly perhaps, the only path to the fully engaged life is enlightened death awareness- not death avoidance obsession.

I feel sorry for those who fear death. Life is great but fear of death paralyzes us from enjoying our years on this glorious beautiful planet and from enjoying our relationships with others.

Be Well,

Dr. Rick Lippin
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com

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» Good points! Posted by: Rune
» RE: Good points! Rune is Wise! Posted by: drricklippin
Still free to die
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 28, 2007 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all the people who seem to be afraid of a longer lifespan, I can't imagine you'd be forced to accept the necessary "treatment", whatever that might be.

Nor does enhanced longevity mean the same thing as immortality. People would still die given long enough.

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the other elephant in the room
Posted by: mwildfire on Sep 28, 2007 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Several posters have pointed out one of the obvious problems with this fantasy--which is that life extension will go only to the rich and well-connected. The author likes the idea of federal money going into research--which means that, as always, the middle-calss will be forced to pay the tab for the privileges of the rich.
But there are two other problems. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the most obvious--which is that on an overpopulated planet, the only way to make room for the tardy exit of one generation is by drastically cutting into the numbers of the newest generation. Perhaps we'd better also allocate federal monies for research into how we can forcibly sterilize the poor so there will be room for the all-powerful, selfish rich. From the point of view of society, is it better to slow the turning of the generations? The author posits that older workers are better because of experience, but the reality is that brain function, as well as body function, slows with age. Young people add freshness and vitality to society. Some old people offer wisdom--but not many. Wisdom is only acquired by those who remain open to change. Most people allow themselves to sink deeper and deeper into ruts as they age, and no longer acquire any useful knowledge.
And this gets into my final problem with this proposal. It's not only a metter of a class divide between those with access to life-extension technology and those without--there will also be a gap on the individual level. What will be the difference between those who choose the treatments and those who don't? Basically, those who grasp at extended life, knowing others pay some of the cost, are those who selfishly value themselves above others, those with inflated egos, those who can't accept death, and those who are able to kick someone else out of the way to stay on top of the heap. In other words, the least wise among us. The very last thing society needs is to sacrifice much of the newest generation in favor of retaining the greediest, most powerful, most hubristic, rich white bastards!

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» RE: the other elephant in the room Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: the other elephant in the room Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: the other elephant in the room Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: the other elephant in the room Posted by: quitecontrary
» what about a generation gap? Posted by: sweet_byrd
» RE: what about a generation gap? Posted by: Logic's Edge
MAY YOU LIVE IN INTERESTING TIMES
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 28, 2007 8:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We definitely do. But there have been exceedingly dull periods of history. Usually someone starts a war to liven things up. Then everyone gets to work toward peace. We don't get to pick our time slot. But it seems that no matter when and how long people live, they all want to make "changes". We all want everyone to know that we were here. It is an interesting topic but should presented as a little less self indulgent. Thanks, ANNA

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Health Cops on Steroids!
Posted by: Gravitas on Sep 28, 2007 8:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These people sound like the health and fitness cops taken to a new extreme! Scary! My number one objection to them is they are evangelistic and want to impose their value system on others. To some of us, life is a spiritual school. Once we learn the lessons we need to, we move on. Deliberately doing everything one cans to extend life makes as much sense as trying to flunk 12th grade so one never has to graduate. Death is a natural part of life, and to become obsessed with extending every last second is to be in extreme and ultimate denial! If that is the way they want to live their lives fine. But don't push it on others, and don't make it public policy with some half baked stats more based on optimism than facts!

Furthermore, I have never met a person obsessed with longevity who seemed happy. They deny themselves every bit of pleasure in the here and now to get those last seconds when they are 80! But if they weren't miserable, they would not be so judgmental and need to police others. Well adjusted people respect boundaries!!!!!!!!!!!

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» RE: Health Cops on Steroids! Posted by: VZEQICVA
Mars Trilogy
Posted by: pdxstudent on Sep 28, 2007 8:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kim Stanley Robinson wrote a science-fiction trilogy called "Red Mars," "Green Mars," and "Blue Mars." It is about, as you'd imagine, the colonization of Mars and its terraformation. Hence the colorful titles.

Robinson is not just writing your everyday flash-gordon or something though. His books are deeply connected to prevailing political situations and certain philosophical issues. One that he addresses in this triology is longevity.

In this world, after successful initial colonization puts a foot-hold on Mars, a kind of gene therapy is developed on earth that essentially extends human life by 200-300 years. It is a vital not decrepit aging process too. There are class issues examined here as well as interpersonal and personal growth issues too. The whole triology, along with his other books, is a great read.

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Others Have Said it Better Than Me
Posted by: Bab5nutz on Sep 28, 2007 9:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If life could be greatly extended, then you would see the rise of an elite, who would live much longer than the people who support them.
I can see other things happening, as well.
First, the elite would inevitably become bored, and look for ways to fill their days - hell - it already happens. And they were will come up with extreme forms of entertainments to keep themselves occupied.
Second, there would be fewer new ideas, fewer innovations. With a long-lived elite in charge, there would be less room for new people with new ideas. Society might even begin to stagnate under such condition,
And I could actually see there being war, people fighting over who gets the longevity pills and who doesn't.
On the other hand, it could be that I have seen way too many science fiction shows..

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There will be another option...
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Sep 28, 2007 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
uploading ourselves into machines. Freeing oneself from biology would seem to be a more efficient way to "live" forever, if that's the goal. Consider that you could "move" into a new model, have copies of you made, etc.

plur

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you may not look so hot though
Posted by: punabear on Sep 28, 2007 10:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My high school science teacher, years ago, informed the class that our noses and feet continue to grow throughout our entire lives. Who wants to be 300 years old with a nose hanging down to their lips and clown feet?

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Don't forget to look at the "Big Picture"
Posted by: chugach3Dguy on Sep 28, 2007 10:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this was ever possible and started off catering to the super-rich and society's upper crust, I could imagine many
recipients of this treatment becoming depressed, bitter, and suicidal. Just imagine- everything as you know it would change. People already have enough trouble dealing with change in the relatively small amount of time we spend living. Take a look at how the neighborhood you grew up in has changed over the last 10 or 25 years. If its anything like from what I remember, the entire area looks drastically different. Forests were clear cut, wetlands were filled, farms were sectioned off and all of it converted to strip malls and condo complexes.

Companies and business changes quickly over time as well, so that would undoubtedly become a difficult hurdle to cross.
And what about friends and family that couldn't afford or didn't want this "age treatment"? Watching entire generations live and die while one lingers on may sound fascinating to some people, but I don't think we humans have the mental stamina and the appropriate faculties to cope. It's already hard enough on many people to lose loved ones and have their heart broken.

How would marriage work? Would marriage still be able to exist? Till death do you part? That's a LONG time! I can only imagine the enormous and complicated families that would arise from the 5 or 6 marriages and divorces- PER CENTURY. I'm sure some wacky fundie zealots of some kind will figure out a way to have "Super Marriages" or something, but in the meantime, I'll take it like it is.

Besides, I think Carl from Aqua Teen Hunger Force said it best when he was asked if he wanted to be immortal: "Nahh, I don't wanna live forever. Sometimes... I kinda want to die."

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Population
Posted by: bookie on Sep 28, 2007 10:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its natural to want to live longer. I'd like to live longer if my quality of life was good. But here's the thing,
THERE'S TOO MANY PEOPLE NOW.
We as a species need to learn to stop overbreeding. The planet doesn't need more people living longer until we are able to control the numbers we have now.

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» RE: Population Posted by: Logic's Edge
Living 1000 years?
Posted by: CUnknown on Sep 28, 2007 10:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of the discussion so far has been interesting, but I think it and this article are a little off-base. There is no reason to believe that humans will ever be able to live to 1000 years of age, this is pure speculative fantasy. Science fiction, really. I love science fiction, but I assume that this article is supposed to be talking about the real world.

At the same time, I'm sure that we will continue to see gains in life-span over the next century or so.. I imagine that with the right diet, exercise, and the best futuristic health care we can muster, humans might one day see life expectancies of around 90 years or so... maybe in the truely far-flung future they might get to 100 or over for some wealthy segment of the population.

Longeivity science is important, and a growing field, but to think that humans might one day routinely live to 200 years of age or older is just foolish. Genetics, diet, exercise, and longeivity science are all factors towards determining life-span, but certainly the most important of those will always be diet and exercise. We have the potential for long and healthy lives right at this moment, is what I'm saying, and it will never get much better than this.

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kind of poignant
Posted by: MMiddle on Sep 28, 2007 10:42 AM   
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Kind of poignant, all this earnest energy going into radical life extension; comparable to trying to colonize Mars. Read "The Coming Plague" or "American Plague" or their ilk: quite likely that Nature will manage to trump our best-laid plans for beating her. The "learn to explore and value Death as a part of Life" point of view is the healthiest. For that challenge, reading up on Buddhism is a good start.

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» RE: kind of poignant Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: kind of poignant Posted by: cpotter
LOST HORIZON...
Posted by: morticia on Sep 28, 2007 12:04 PM   
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....by James Hilton shows us moderately extended lives--200 years or so. In Anne Rice's INTERVIEW WITH THE VAMPIRE, we see how it is to live for 400 years or more. A terrible ennui, disgust and psychological decay sets in; at the same time, the vampire is addicted, unable to let go and just die, and is reduced to drinking the blood of rats. Great stuff. A fine metaphor for Dick Cheney, a real-life vampire who should have been dead long ago, but whose black heart is kept pumping by multiple space-age pacemakers...

There's no need for most of us to fret over the philosophical quandary presented by extended lifespans. It will be available only to the very rich, like the science and resources that keep Cheney alive. For the rest of us, it will be entirely moot. We'll live and die as we always have.

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More life only if accompanied by more wisdom
Posted by: veive on Sep 28, 2007 12:23 PM   
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Unfortunately, during the past 100 years our lifespans have been increased with no comensurate increase in our wisdom. We, the people, are even dumber now when it comes to knowing how to live truly joyful existences. Additional years have not brought additional happiness and extending those years to 1000 may well make things much worse.

Note: Incessant distraction seeking does not equal happiness.

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Anybody paying attention to Naomi Klein's thesis?
Posted by: Sojourner on Sep 28, 2007 2:00 PM   
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She says that capitalism feeds on catastrophes and crises of any kind. The article's reported discussion sounds like an insurance salesman's pitch. "Here, you need to buy what I am selling, because anyone in their right mind has to want what I'm selling."

It's just another sales pitch, like sending a colony off to Mars. Yeah, that's where we want to set our priorities--like we need to go looking for work to do so that we can burn up our planet faster. The faster we burn it up, the more we need to go to Mars. Funny how that works out.

We could increase the average life expectancy beyond what the discussion even considers by putting an end to wars. Since we cannot seem to figure out how to do that, lets see if we can inject people with something that will add a day or two.

But the clincher is that the value of long life is best represented in the accumulated wisdom of our culture. Who today cares about that? It's gotta have buttons and led lamps and be novel. Spend time in study, learning the wisdom of our ancestors? Like it or not cool cats, we have already all the wisdom it requires to live well. If only we could get people to appreciate it and give it a try? "Do unto others." "You are forgiven as you forgive others." "Don't take advantage, even when it's easy to do." Etc.

"Ah, what fools these mortals be."

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But what about the next life?
Posted by: Nedtheredhead on Sep 28, 2007 4:28 PM   
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Of the many opinions posted here in less than 12 hours, which shows just how important this subject is, none that I could find looked at personal belief.
If you are a Christian, or live in a Christian society, an atheist, agnostic, Muslim, and similar other beliefs, you believe we only have one life. We are born, we live, we die, end of story.
However Buddhists, Hindus, alternative spiritual believers and religions I can't recall instantly, believe that we are born into many lives. We are born into one life, we live that life, we pass over from that life into a terminal where we rest before returning to another human body to do it all over again. Reincarnation. The belief of reincarnation is that if we mess up one life, we get a chance to improve our soul by being given a new, different life full of new experiences. In other words we are run through a series of new tests in every new life we are given.
To extend any particular life, from a reincarnationists point of view, is to allow a person to 'burn off karma' in the one life, but that also means a person could live a dreadful life in one go, where as if it had been spread over many lives, as nature intended, it wouldn't have been so painful.
We live in a society that encourages personal choice, however that personal choice is wide open to strong suggestive processes intended to sell goods and services.
Take for example the cigarette industry and cigarette smokers. It is common knowledge that smokers age far quicker than non smokers, in particular the ageing process of the skin is sped up. Smokers, it is said, have choice. But we also know that smoking is addictive and many just can't give up smoking no matter how much they try. So the cosmetic industry develops products that mask that skin ageing, and again the user is bombarded with the choices on how to look younger.
We are now looking at extending life, as this article mentions, not to improve the quality of life, though that is the sales pitch, but to, again, put another product on the market to sell under the heading of choice.
For those that believe we only live one life, it sounds like a great option I suppose, but frankly I will be happy when my 70 or so years are up. And if I only got one bite of the cherry, then at least I won't have put another 20 or more years of suffering on myself. And if reincarnation is an option, that I'll come back as a new person, and without the memory of all the stupid things I've done in this life.

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» Why I am a mortalist. Posted by: Sojourner
That's Easy.
Posted by: Joe on Sep 28, 2007 4:43 PM   
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No. I rather live a short life of happiness than a long life of torture. The one reason I never understood people with their life is beautiful, life is wonderful statements is because quality of life seems to never enter the equation. I'm waiting for the baby boomers to die off. The longer they live, the longer they vote, the longer they control my life with philosophies I disagree with. In a sense the prolonging of life slows down evolution.

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1K? Why not immortality?
Posted by: Glennk1949 on Sep 28, 2007 5:55 PM   
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Immortality or is that immorality? Only the rich would get the nod and then they'd hunt the lesser lived species wouldn't they? The idea of extending lifespans within REASON slowly makes some sense, however a sudden jump by huge amounts will create havoc and maybe war. Lets start thinking about saving the planet first before extending Billy Gates et. al. God status by handing him and his class immortality.

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Sorry, in 120 Years You Are All Dead
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 28, 2007 6:24 PM   
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Yea, we have all heard it before. The wonders of science and nutrition, etc., and we are going to live longer and longer so death will just recede into the distant horizon.

Make Believe. The USA lifespan has now risen to the spectacular age of 78. In the past 30 years, since the eradication of the major childhood diseases due to innoculations (smallpox, diptherea, etc.), the lifespan in the USA has not risen appreciably. No more then 10% And, here, somebody is talking about the lifespan being extended 1000+%

Hate to bust your bubble bud. In 120 years (and most likely 100 years), everyone reading this is going to be dead. No amount of tofu, granola, vitamin E, is going to save you. Nothing will. However, if you prefer this make believe that is up to you. Otherwise, live each and every day to it's fullest because life turns on a dime. And, it ain't changing very soon at all.

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Worth it?
Posted by: talkville on Sep 29, 2007 3:41 AM   
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In this society, it's a critical question to be answered with another: worth it for whom? The "science of longevity" or many of the "sciences" of today ought not to be assumed to be concerned with each of US; as with all else, the deeper motive is to extend and improve the living of "those who are worth 'saving' "

Living and dying are con-current processes. It always depends on one's conditions of existence (outside of the individual's will or control) as to whether the answer to the article's question will be positive or negative. I suspect in our society the answer to the question would be quite different beginning in the low sectors of the hierarchy and up towards the highest. Kinda the way abstracts like "outlook", "attitude", "enthusiasm" and others would go. But as long as there's "worth" to be extracted, you bet they'll keep all of us wishing to live past the 100's. Keep your insurance paid up, though, just in case.

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