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Health & Wellness

Fainting in This Country Can Carry a $10,000 Price Tag

By Kirk Nielsen, Miller-McCune.com. Posted April 1, 2009.


After passing out, Kirk Nielsen got gouged by exorbitant health care fees.
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There's really no good time or place for a blackout, though some are significantly worse than others. Mine, one subzero evening in downtown St. Paul, Minn., last December, fell solidly on the inauspicious side of the spectrum.

The Level 2 lobby of the Ordway Center for the Performing Arts was teeming with people waiting for the second half of a fine production of Irving Berlin's White Christmas to begin. I was standing with my mom, sister and her three young-adult kids. Through the windows of a dazzling curtain-wall that spans the front of the trapezoidal building, I was admiring the golden lights on the canopy of trees in the park across the street. On the warm side of the glass, a professional trio of carolers had just finished a short intermission set. I was in a good mood; a fantastic woman in Duluth was expecting my call after the show to finalize plans for our first date the next night.  

Suddenly, I felt weirdly lightheaded, so I turned to hasten to my seat. I took three steps, got the spins and took a nosedive, just missing the edge of a wine and coffee bar. Upon impact, I regained some consciousness and sat half-sprawled with my elbows on the carpet. A short-haired middle-age woman was crouching next to me, asking me if I knew my name, what day of the week it was, where I was. I did, which eliminated the possibility of stroke. "You blacked out ... I'm not a doctor ... That happens to me ... You should lay down," I recall her saying.   

Assuming the dead man's pose in the Ordway lobby sounded fairly embarrassing, so I resolved to head for one of the lobby's posh benches several paces away. With someone's help, I got to my feet, and within two steps, a heavy wave of dizziness nearly sent me back down. I made it to the bench and sat, feeling exhausted and nauseated, and exchanging glances with the horrified faces of my mom and sister. I hoped my nieces and nephew were inside watching the rest of White Christmas, not their uncle's freak show.    

There was talk of an usher who was also a paramedic. He -- a polite young man in a dark suit -- appeared and took my blood pressure, which was very low as was my pulse. He said calmly that one option was to call an ambulance. I was afraid, I thought I might be dying, I was thinking about my deductible. The number "$2,500" flashed through my mind.  Or was that my maximum "out of pocket"?

I knew for sure that I was enrolled in a $129-per-month emergency and hospitalization plan with Blue Cross Blue Shield of Florida. Like everyone, I'd heard that a trip to an emergency room could cost several grand.

"I can't afford that," I muttered.

"Now isn't the time to worry about money," my sister responded, slightly scolding.

Then my eyes rolled upward into my skull as I blacked out again, my chin dropping to the top of my chest and the rest of me still just sitting there.

Moments later, I awoke from a frenzied dream, intensely disoriented, then realized I was still on the bench. The usher was looking at me. "You did it again," he said. Not certain I wasn't in the early stages of some kind of gradual heart failure -- I had felt some weirdness in my chest before my sprawl on the carpet — I consented to the ambulance ride.

Within a few minutes I was rolling feet-first on a stretcher, into the elevator, out into the subzero air and aboard the rescue truck. As I recall they affixed an intravenous tube into my arm and asked me to open my mouth so one of them could toss in some tiny nitroglycerine pellets, which dilate the blood vessels. "I bet you don't wear those shoes in Miami," one of the paramedics joshed, referring to a pair of (my dad's) old brown rubber jobbies that clashed badly with my black wool suit pants. Then they put an oxygen mask over my mouth.

Soon I was in an emergency room bed at United Hospital in downtown St. Paul, still connected to an IV while nurses further hooked me up to an EKG and drew blood from my arm to start testing for heart attack enzymes.

Within an hour came the impression from my emergency-room doctor, a serious, trim, capable-looking man. I had suffered syncope, a manly term for fainting. The question now, the doctor continued, is why. There were many possible causes of syncope. "When your heart rate drops to 40 all of a sudden and you pass out, it's a good idea to find out what's going on," he said tersely. Thus, I would be spending the night in the hospital, having my heart monitored and my blood analyzed.


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HR 676 Medicare for All ... It's Past Time ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Apr 1, 2009 12:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"When are America's health care givers going to give all of us one?"

Never ... and unless we go to single payer healthcare they will wreck this country, both our citizens health and the business sector, crippled by skyrocketing health care costs.

The only answer is a single payer health care plan and John Conyers bill HR 676 is the best of the bunch.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» ABSOLUTELY CORRECT ! Posted by: LaughingModerateIndependent
» RE: ABSOLUTELY CORRECT ! Posted by: Natasha_W
» RE: ABSOLUTELY CORRECT ! Posted by: mmckinl
» Look North...... Posted by: Elendil
Good Care, But High Prices
Posted by: DrBrian on Apr 1, 2009 12:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an experienced emergency and critical care physician, I'd like to point out that the care he got was appropriate. Fainting in middle aged adults is often indicative of serious, even life-threatening conditions. Health care is expensive and labor-intensive.

I'm in favor of a single-payer system, and there's a lot that should be changed in our healthcare industry. The author, however, obtained state-of-the-art care.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Try NO Care, But High Prices Posted by: pangolin
» RE: Good Care, But High Prices Posted by: peacefullaim1
» RE: Good Care, But High Prices Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Good Care, But High Prices Posted by: peacefullaim1
» RE: Good Care, But High Prices Posted by: sunnywater
» If you're ever in Chicago... Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: If you're ever in Chicago... Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: Good Care, But High Prices Posted by: bumblebee
» RE: Good Care, But High Prices Posted by: masthead
Similar experience
Posted by: imsleepy on Apr 1, 2009 1:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article really hit close to home for me. When I first moved to Colorado from Florida, I fainted at the greyhound bus station almost as soon as we arrived in Denver. There was a nurse there who told me someone my age (22) with my symptoms (she said my skin was slightly yellow) had come to the hospital the night before and died, so it was urgent that I went to the hospital immediately. I was still dazed from fainting, and a little scared, so when the paramedics arrived and also insisted I could die without medical treatment, they effectively convinced me to get in the ambulance. I asked them if I could just get a ride to the hospital from my dad because I didn't have insurance, and they convinced me otherwise, scaring me into believing my life was in danger.

At the hospital, the doctor's report called it syncope, due to sudden change in altitude. Apparently it's not an uncommon reaction for people traveling there from sea level. And none of the nurses said my skin looked yellow. Pale, but not yellow.

Now I have nearly 10 grand in medical bills that I will be paying off the rest of my life thanks to some over eager paramedics. Why is it that insurance companies get the privilege of paying less, even though they can afford it, while those of us that can't afford health insurance are forced to pay the maximum prices for our emergencies? Obviously, the staff is still getting paid just as much. No one at the hospital is going hungry without that $7992 the author saved, so why do I have to pay it?

That's not fair at all, and I don't like it one bit. But what can I DO about it? Not just for my bill, but to prevent that happening to other uninsured people? Should those of us without insurance (or emergency coverage) be forced to live without health care, even if we're afraid for our lives?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Similar experience Posted by: Zeugitai
» RE: Good ol' America... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Similar experience Posted by: bumblebee
» RE: Similar experience Posted by: cjsm
» what if you don't pay?? Posted by: Naty
» RE: what if you don't pay?? Posted by: dhp1029
» RE: Similar experience Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: Similar experience Posted by: canvasrx
» RE: Similar experience Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: Similar experience Posted by: anneliese-nyc
ridiculous
Posted by: Elainna on Apr 1, 2009 1:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am delighted that I left the USA over 30 years ago for Canada. Here I am covered against such nonsense.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» But you're *SOCIALISTS*!!! Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: But you're *SOCIALISTS*!!! Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: ridiculous Posted by: dockboy
» Canada Posted by: chaoslegs
UK healthcare
Posted by: chris mccalphy on Apr 1, 2009 2:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I live in the uk where our healthcare is free because it is funded from our taxes. No insurance companies involved, in other words the idea of getting a bill for healthcare just seems absurd.Reading your story and also seeing the michael moore film sicko makes me appreciate our national health service even more.

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» RE: UK healthcare Posted by: Arbie
» RE: UK healthcare Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: UK healthcare Posted by: babs
How to provoke an armed uprising in Australia
Posted by: Perry Logan on Apr 1, 2009 2:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Note from an Australian friend:

In Australia, we have a hugely popular universal publicly funded health system.

Drugs are affordable.

We live longer than Americans.

Our health spending per capita is less than half that of the US.

link

If you want to provoke an armed uprising in Australia, abolish Medicare and tell people you are bringing in a US-style privatised system.

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/8382

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Changing the system though force
Posted by: Naty on Apr 1, 2009 3:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How does one change something so integral to society by force? A factory can be shut down for days (assuming it isn't producing some unique part) under strike with little reprocussions on the general economy.

Medical staff cannot hold a strike for the obvious reasons. That leaves the rest of us w/o/ health insurance (including those who have it but want to fight for justice) to act. Besides holding protests, writing diplomatic (but secretly screaming) letters to our members of government just isn't going to do it. How to use force without being violent?

At a 3M factory in France workers held their boss up in the factory for a night so that they could get the severance packages they deserve. I love that about France. We need to do something like this.

One year ago I was an existentially confused youth just going through the steps (i.e. college) that most middle-class kids go through. Now I'm a royally pissed, ready for action, wannabe fighter. I'm mad that my brother has to "consider" if going to the American Dental Association's recommended yearly check-up is really worth his money. I got to watch, last summer, as my father deteriorated into a massive depression and almost childish state because he could not find employment. I stayed home that summer because I wanted to support him, I was the light in his life. I could have worked in Alaska that summer but stayed home and basked in the misery. I'm angry that I see more and more homeless people in my hometown. I'm angry that a homeless family came to my college union cafeteria selling candy for $2/piece for a "basketball team" while NO ONE gave any money and stared at them as if this family (a mother and 2 very little children and an older girl, o yeah and they were all black) was scum. I wanted to slap that girls' smug smile when she looked down at the child asking her to buy a goddamn piece of candy. Damn it.

Welcome to a new cultural dark age. I new we were at some pinnacle when I heard that song, "Roses really smell like poo poo" aired on the radio.

Honestly I won't be surprised if there really is a revolution in this country, by the youth, for the youth! Because lets face it, it's the nature of older folks to be self-centered, too cynical, and dispassionate. They never give a shit about the future of the planet and its future denizens who's resources they have feasted off, really. Some Native American tribes had a rule where they acted in ways such that 7 generations later their tribe could still behave the same. The older poeple want us to take care of them when they're old, and then fly off into the nethersphere, and then they still want us to take care of them when they're gone, by paying off THEIR DEBT!!!!! I'm not talking about ALL older folks, but most. I'm assuming the more mature people on this board are not "old" and have the spirit of youth to make the world better. All major religions (and I'm assuming that there are fundemental truths that are shared between the major religions and that they do have something valuable to say) stress helping other people. I think us Youth are the most religious of all since we actually give a shit.

I'm not paying my federal taxes next year, step one. I'm protesting 04/11 in Chicago, step two. What's step three?

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» Hope for the future Posted by: truthteller
» Ah, begruntleed! Posted by: K.J.
Bernard Sanders is also bringing up HR 676 in the Senate.
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Apr 1, 2009 3:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/03/31

All this while Birch boy is busy forming his Blue Doggie rightwing coalition.

As to the House, I'll congratulate those who actually pass it as well and don't water it down. Unfortunately, it appears that bailing people out of undeserved costs of privatized healthcare is not important to most pols in Washington as is bailing out Wall $treet and carrying on with more war spending for years to come.

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PATHETIC!-THIS STORIES ARE ABUNDANT
Posted by: drricklippin on Apr 1, 2009 4:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wake up America! - The unisured are being denied basic services while the insured (most of us) are being duped and swindled.

As a Doc I'm not going to e-comment on your particular case sufficed to say that these stories are the rule- not the exception.

My own plan for responsible health care cost reduction is more-

- primary care
- chronic disease management
- home care
- prevention
- public health
- ethical and compassionate rationing especially at the end of life

If these are implemented then we will be able to provide affordable emergency care.

In the meantime the healthcare industry is grabbing all the $ it possibly can.

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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» RE: PATHETIC!-THIS STORIES ARE ABUNDANT Posted by: LaughingModerateIndependent
» RE: PATHETIC!-THIS STORIES ARE ABUNDANT Posted by: LaughingModerateIndependent
the medical mafia
Posted by: TrollTreason on Apr 1, 2009 4:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
watch "murder by injection".....you tube

go here

http://www.whale.to/a/medical_mafia.html

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Death sentence
Posted by: NYmediator on Apr 1, 2009 4:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've informed my family that, as a small business owner who cannot afford health insurance in this economy, that any diagnosis of cancer or similarly expensive affliction/invasive procedure, will result in my suicide. I will not spend the rest of my life in penury nor will I ask or expect my family to help defray health costs no honest man could pay.

It's either that or I try for a quickie marriage for health insurance benefits.

What a country.

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» RE: Get arrested... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Get arrested... Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: A little extreme... Posted by: Cybershaman
» If you're going to do that... Posted by: truthteller
» Get arrested...and get ignored Posted by: FoonTheElder
» I know people who did this Posted by: NYmediator
PATHETIC-WAKE UP AMERICA!
Posted by: drricklippin on Apr 1, 2009 4:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The uninsured are denied basic services while the uninsured (most of us) are being duped and swindled.

My plan for reducing health care costs responsibly includes more -

- primary care
- chronic disease management
- home care
- prevention
- public health
- ethical and responsible rationing especially at the end of life

If we implement these we will be able to provide good affordable emergency care.

Until we implement these concepts the status quo health care providers are grabbing as much $ as possible.

Dr.Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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» RE: PATHETIC-WAKE UP AMERICA! Posted by: Old Skeptic
» RE: PATHETIC-WAKE UP AMERICA! Posted by: drricklippin
Cost in Australia. Nothing.
Posted by: wisegalah on Apr 1, 2009 4:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This event would cost most people in Australia nothing out of pocket.
We do have a reasonable universal levy to cover health costs and one can also take out health insurance.

Guess that makes a bunch of commies according to the stupid, rednecked right in the USofA.

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» RE: Cost in Australia. Nothing. Posted by: astralman
» He's Right!. Posted by: iolanthe
Pamela from Australia
Posted by: pvalemont@bigpond.com on Apr 1, 2009 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are American people aware that people in many other countries around the world have solved their health insurance concerns in a very simple and logical manner? Hopefully now that Barack Obama is in as President, he will either know as a result of his own studies, or at the very least from his talks with our Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, that it is perfectly possible for the government at both the federal and state level to provide free health care for all, provided by tax payers. In our country, private medical insurance is optional, yet no one has to pay for any kind of procedure here. All medical attention is immediate and free, covered with a once a year government levy, paid only by those over a certain tax threshold, while many are exempted from it, because of low income. All ambulance cover is immediate and free to all, covered by a state government fee included in everyone's electricity bill. No one has to stop and deliberate about whether or not they can afford to call an ambulance for goodness sake, or whether they can afford an operation. Whether it's a heart transplant or a few stitches, it's all free in Australia. About time you guys caught up to us. You've been lagging behind us for 65 years in that department, yet we keep hearing how you have the greatest country in the world. Free government hospital service was introduced in my state of Queensland Australia during the Second World War in 1944, and has only got bigger and better across Australia ever since. Nobody dies here because they cannot afford health insurance or an operation. It is just one of the many reasons we think we live in the best country on earth.

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» RE: Pamela from Australia Posted by: QuestionAuthority
» RE: Pamela from Australia Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: Pamela from Australia Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» Yes, we're aware of that, thank you. Posted by: Groovy Vegan
You were lucky
Posted by: maryyooch on Apr 1, 2009 4:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You were lucky that you had insurance. I fell down one stair, just one, and broke my heel bone. I went to the emergency room, where I was the second one in but thelast one seen. They put a plastic splint, with about 9 ace bandages around it to hold it on, and gave me crutces. No boot. No walking cast. I told them I could not use crutches as I have nerve damage in my neck that travels trhoughout my shoulder and arm. Would they give me a cane? NO. Deal with it. So, then my neck pain became much worse. Needless to say, I was a fixture on the couch for a few months. My bill? $3,000.00
Then they told me to follow up with an orthopedic. Wher was I going to get money for that?

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$7,000 Bicycle Wreck!!!
Posted by: Klaus on Apr 1, 2009 5:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can relate to this story also! I wrecked on my mountain bike, scrapes, bruises, and a bump on the head. Ended up in the emergency room for a few hours then went home. Then the bills started to flow in like a river!!! It all added up to about $7,000 dollars! WTF!!!

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» RE: $7,000 Bicycle Wreck!!! Posted by: eggnog2464
Emergency Rooms a threat to health/life
Posted by: pangolin on Apr 1, 2009 5:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have unexplained chronic pain and depression. No matter how bad I feel I will NEVER discuss my depressive symptoms with an ER doctor again. Mention a history of treatment for depression and any other condition that isn't bleeding is immediately dismissed.

Don't even think about checking into a mental health facility. You won't be treated, it's pretty much a jail atmosphere and when you can't pay the outragous bills they put them on your credit report ruining your ability to ever get a decent job again.

At this point I think the US medical system is a greater threat to the the health of everybody but blunt trauma victims than going untreated.

A boot to the head of physicians and insurance companies for perpetuating this mess.

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» RE: mergency Rooms a threat to health/life Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: mergency Rooms a threat to health/life Posted by: photon's feather
the US is a good place to do your medical residency because...
Posted by: Naty on Apr 1, 2009 5:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...there are so many more cases of the type that you would barely see in other countries with universal health insurance. My friend from Switzerland told me this.

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The Negotiated Rate Swindle
Posted by: somegirl on Apr 1, 2009 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I too have a high deductible "junk" policy...but my deductible is $5000, which i did meet once when i had to go to the emergency room.

what most people don't realize is that it is against the law to charge lower prices to the uninsured, but the insurers get to "negotiate" the charges down. so in order for the providers to get paid their percentage they have to charge exorbitant rates. the uninsured essentially subsidize the insurance companies in this way. i have been writing about this for years now.

it is an awful racket and the only way out is single payer. our entire system is hopelessly broken and the price of this lack of a safety net, which exists in every other industrialized country, will be what collapse our society in the years to come.

it is highly unlikely obama will do anything about it. look how he caves to the banking interests...do you really think he will do anything different with the insurance companies?

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» RE: The Negotiated Rate Swindle Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS
$22,000 asthma attack
Posted by: desertrose on Apr 1, 2009 5:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After a particularly bad asthma attack, I ended up in the ER. Tests in the ER, determined that a heart enzyme level was slightly increased, and suddenly, i became a cardiac patient. I was kept for two days in the cardiac unit, trying to convince the doctors that my heart was perfectly healthy. (I'm a runner.) My husband had to get a patient advocate to get me out. I believe that the doctor's were padding their wallets, and the hospital was thrilled to oblige them, simply because I had health insurance.
P.S. I never saw a pulmonologist the whole time I was there.

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» RE: $22,000 asthma attack Posted by: AMerrickanGirl
Scary
Posted by: beedolo on Apr 1, 2009 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No doubt about it, medical care is totally unaffordable. If you do not have health insurance, you are totally screwed!

RT
Privacy Center

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» Hey! Watch that link above! Posted by: photon's feather
brain aneurysm
Posted by: olympia43 on Apr 1, 2009 6:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He should see the bill for a brain aneurysm. I'm not really complaining--my daughter is priceless and she is probably going to recover completely thanks to skilled and prompt medical attention.

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Make or Break Deal
Posted by: snax on Apr 1, 2009 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I cannot stress enough, that if our current president and legislature do not remedy this issue and move us to a single payer plan by the end of this president's first term, I WILL NOT VOTE FOR HIM AGAIN!

I have really good health insurance, yet this issue still remains at the top of my list of domestic concerns. Inaction will be totally inexcuseable and grounds for tossing ALL OF THEM OUT ON THEIR ASSES!!!!

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Paramedic
Posted by: baierdoug@hotmail.com on Apr 1, 2009 7:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As we are constantly reminded we don't practice medicine. We have to assume and treat the worst case we can imagine (within reason). I'm curious about the Nitroglycerin for a hypotensive, bradycardic, patient though?

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Single Payer- its fair , economic and more than necessary now
Posted by: JerseyGeoff on Apr 1, 2009 8:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like a few other posts, I cannot express enough that we need single payer healthcare like HR 676 and S.703. This sort of nonsense goes on all the time, and woe to anyone who does not have heatlh insurance- yes the writer would now be getting dunned for $10,000 in fees-that's why most bankruptcies in this country are medical related.
Only the US has this insane structure- I want healthcare like Canada's and unless we start calling and picketing congressional offices we won't get it. Go to Healthcare-Now.org or PNHP.org for more accurate facts!

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For-profit healthcare corporations should be illegal.
Posted by: monkeywrench on Apr 1, 2009 8:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The $7,992 was all discounted because hospitals let BCBS and other big insurance companies pay lower rates than ordinary, underinsured Americans."
. . . . .

Pretty good evidence that much of the hospitals' and other healthcare providers' whining about going broke is bullshit, and that they are gouging their patients who usually can't afford to fight back, but do not gouge insurance companies (as badly) because they will (of course, it's left up to insurance companies to gouge us directly ...).

One of the motives behind all this gouging at every turn is that these publicly-traded healthcare companies have to satisfy their greedy investors and stock holders, and/or they need to cover their losses from their own greed-driven risky investments that have gone bad.

Note: The last time I had to go a hospital, not on an emergency, was to get a simple x-ray for a sprained ankle. That's all; two pictures of my ankle via now-cheap technology that has been around for a hundred years. The bill for my 30-minute stay? Almost a thousand dollars. As part of my "treatment," a doctor just walking by asked me if I needed any pain killers; I said no, but he insisted, pulling two uncovered tablets out of his linty lab coat pocket and handing them to me saying, "just in case you do." Those two unrequested tablets that the bastard stuck on my bill cost me 50 dollars! (That hospital is now out of business because doctors got tired of the ripoffs and stopped sending their patients there.)

Most people don't realize that until about 1970, healthcare was not a for-profit business (making a profit on healthcare then was ILLEGAL in many states!) We need to get back to that standard – otherwise, in a very few years, healthcare gouging will bankrupt this country.

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HMO's are Ripping us off!!
Posted by: beastfan on Apr 1, 2009 8:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
BCBS runs endless advertising on TV, radio and billboards. They funded a hockey arena in Rochester, NY. They had a brand new, sparkling building erected in downtown Buffalo, overlooking our polluted lake. Their CS reps make more money than I do, and I'm in management.
Yet, their customers all seem to be saddled with enormous medical expenses despite their rather high premiums.

I need someone to explain this to me.

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Seething Anger
Posted by: kogwonton on Apr 1, 2009 9:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... boiling away like Mt. Redoubt.

Chronic and acute pain, coupled with partial disability (getting closer to complete disability every day), add to that children who depend on you, and a medical industry that tells you that controlling pain leads to addiction that is 'worse than pain'.

If the leading cause of bankruptcy, not to mention anxiety, is not dealt with there will be a lot of ash in the skies very soon. I just hope it isn't an 'extinction level event'.

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» RE: Seething Anger Posted by: doneman2000
Curandero
Posted by: xtxmx on Apr 1, 2009 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that we need a single payer universal health care system. The caveat is that we can not have insurance companies involved in manageing it. They are the root cause of this health care mess we are in and it just doesn't make moral or economic sense having a corporate structure whose raison'd etre is profit running the system. On the other hand, the governments track record isn't that great either. How about a non-profit agency running it under limited government oversight? Granted, access may be limited with longer waiting times but that's the price you pay. People can also pay for private insurance and see physicians privately if they want, like they do in some countries or they can stand in line with the masses and get free (or limited cost) health care and meds. Routine health maintenance would be covered such as yearly mammograms, immunizations, etc. and care for chronic diseases. I think most physicians would support this type of program in return for limited immunity from malpractice or substantial legal reform. Thoughts?

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» Not bad for a compromise. Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS
When are we going to get a break, you ask?
Posted by: markyannone on Apr 1, 2009 9:57 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have you forgotten how to be a good consumer? Perhaps you never learned this in government school.

Now that you know the real value of your health insurance, go shopping for something better.

Now that you know how deeply discounted medical costs are, make sure you always get a healthy discount.

Now that you know how expensive an ambulance is, call a cab instead.

Now that you know how expensive poor health can be, avoid aspartame and Splenda (sucralose), and get off any prescriptions you are on as soon as possible.

Now that you know how expensive poor health can be, design an exit strategy that is quick and painless. Remember that it's okay to die penniless; it's not okay to live that way.

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» Real Torches, Real Pitchforks Posted by: pangolin
» You don't get it Posted by: logansafi
similar story, more money! We are 40K in medical debt!
Posted by: thealltheone on Apr 1, 2009 10:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This happened to my husband at work. He fainted....I got there as the ambulance was going to take him away...I told them no....all tests they did on the spot did not indicate anything was wrong. Knowing his history, I knew he was not drinking enough water, etc (it was hot) so they suggested I take him to a clinc down the road, I did. That cost over $500 on my credit card on the spot or they would not do anything for him. They did find a higher than normal reading of an enzyme, but it was erratic and he was not sure if it was his machine or not...I still knew nothing was wrong with him, but they guilted me into calling the ambulance back. Cause if you do not have insurance the only way into a hospital around here if it is not life or death is by ambulance only, or you can wait over night in the county hospital and if something was wrong with his heart, oh well... So I did. They took him to St. Baptist, cause I had already had a terrible experience by Methodist two years earlier. They kept him for two days, did many tests, checked evey level of everything eveywhere and even ran a scope through his heart. Nothing was wrong with him. He is healthy and with a very good heart with min. plauque which was better for normal for his age. Everything was fine. It was his bruised flat foot with a collapsed arch that caused the enzyme to be higher than normal. That visit cost 20K....The first time he went into the hospital two years before he had a ulcer on a main artery in his stomach. He threw up a ton of blood. I called the ambulance and they wanted to take him to Methodist. I told them we did not have insurance and to take him to the county hospital. You can get into the county hospital if it is a life or death situation. They insisted that it was not a good idea and took him against my wishes to Methodist Hospital. (I really think this company has a deal with Methodist going on.) The initial emergency room doctors were great, they immediatly cartilzed the spot and stopped the bleeding, gave him 4 pints of blood and stuck him in a small area in the emergency room. The emergency room doctor told me that he could not see past a spot in his stomach and wanted to order a colonoscopy. But because we had no insurance or a primary care doctor, he laid in a hallway for three more days with nothing for his headache, no water not even ice, no food, no one cleaned him up from his initial ordeal( dried blood all over him, no one changed or noticed he was allergic to the latex tape on his arms for tubes and had half dollar sized burns under them. On the third day, I was no longer polite and so I screamed as loud as I could at the desk to either find him a primary care doctor to sign the order for the test or release him! First they stuck him in a room with nothing in it, no soap, no towels, no nothing, then that afternoon they released him, and that was another 20K total. So now we are in 40K medical debt. And when they say it does not go on your credit, that is not true. every lab, every private doctor, ambulance, etc are all separate enities and I still have bill collectors call me everyday for the last three years.

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Single payer system in Canada
Posted by: Joe H on Apr 1, 2009 10:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When this happened to my wife, it cost her $150 for the ambulance. All other costs were covered.

I recently spent 3 months in hospital and had 2 serious operations. Total cost to me . . . zero.

There is no utilization fee, no annual fees . . . medicare is paid for through income taxes.

And medical care costs Canadians about half of the cost in the US.

Pressure Obama. Socialist medical care is the single biggest thing you can do to improve your quality of life.

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» RE: It's too bad...... Posted by: fearn
» RE: It's too bad...... Posted by: babs
Curtisnoel
Posted by: Curtisnoel590777 on Apr 1, 2009 10:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, it happened to me too. I was visiting my Dad in the hospital after his surgery when I passed out and was hauled to the emergency room. I didn't have health insurance at the time, nor did I have much say about where I was going in my faint state. I wasn't overnight, but I was still stuck with thousands for treatment I didn't clearly consent to.

One would think the best place to get sick would be a hospital, but not in America, it's the last place you want to be if you don't have insurance. Reminds me of a related story here in Chicago several years back that still galls me to the core. Do read:

http://www.aintnowaytogo.com/samaritan.htm

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From the cradle to the grave.....1
Posted by: richard0a37 on Apr 1, 2009 10:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the UK, The Elementary Education Act of 1880 insisted on compulsory attendance at school from 5-10 years.

The Free Education Act of 1891 provided for the state payment of school fees up to ten shillings per week.

The Elementary Education (School Attendance) Act 1893 raised the school leaving age to 11 and later to 13. The Elementary Education (Blind and Deaf Children) Act of the same year extended compulsory education to blind and deaf children, and made provision for the creation of special schools.

The Voluntary Schools Act 1897 provided grants to public elementary schools not funded by school boards (typically Church schools).

Following the National Health Service Act of 1946, all municipal and voluntary hospitals were transferred to the State on July 5th 1948. On that day, the Right Honourable Aneurin Bevan, the Minister for Health, came to Park Hospital (now Trafford General) to inaugurate the NHS by symbolically receiving its keys.

This event alone gives a good idea of Park Hospital's status.

Not everyone looked forward to the arrival of the NHS. In minutes of the hospital management committee, just two months prior to nationalisation, the Chairman reported a conversation with Matron. She was said to have told him that she "did not want to be in the building when it was taken over". Happily, though, she changed her mind, and was present on the big day.

On July 5th 1948, Sylvia Diggory (nee Beckingham) was just 13 years old and the youngest person on Ward 5 at Park Hospital. It was by chance that Sylvia was chosen to be the first ever NHS patient. An outbreak of measles on the children's ward meant that she had to be accommodated with adults in a glass sided veranda close to the hospital main entrance. From her corner bed, she watched nurses form a 'guard of honour' when Nye Bevan arrived. Sylvia still has vivid memories of the occasion. She recalls: "Aneurin Bevan asked me if I understood the significance of the occasion and told me that it was a milestone in history - the most civilised step any country had ever taken, and a day I would remember for the rest of my life - and of course, he was right."

In the UK, as with children’s education, everyone who is entitled, and who wishes to, gets free health care at the point of delivery.

The costs are borne by taxation. In the UK, anyone who works for a living pays compulsory income tax and national insurance. This money also funds the support and maintenance of the armed services, the manufacture and development of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons, the Royal Family, the civil service, the highways and byways, the sewers, the street lights, the pavements you walk on.

Via council tax, we pay for the police and fire services. Water, waste disposal, gas and electricity are provided by the utility companies, which we also have to pay for.

Imagine living in a society where the only thing your taxes paid were the president and his government official lackeys. Your children would in all likelihood be illiterate, as would you. If they get ill, tough, they can die on the streets.

Sure we pay for our health service via taxation. It’s strange though, but of all the services we do pay for via taxation, it is a curious blessing to know that at least some of that money is being spent on something that actually makes the lives of everyone a bit better.

Why was the NHS introduced into the UK in the first place? I don’t know, so much of the country was bombed to smithereens at the end of war, there must have been huge numbers of people potentially homeless, plus of course, there was a big increase in baby births. Perhaps the powers that be figured that without free health care, there would just be too many people dying or getting seriously ill. Who can tell!

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From the cradle to the grave.....2
Posted by: richard0a37 on Apr 1, 2009 11:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The USA on the other hand, has escaped foreign invasion and occupation, and having its towns and cities blown to bits with the living standards of its citizens decimated. USA prefers to take its grievances abroad where they can do the least amount of damage to its territory. Thus, it might just be that, whereas free medical care might be desirable, there’s no real call for it. The population muddles by.

However, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Free medical care is available to patients in mental hospitals and prisoners serving jail sentences, so it’s not all doom and gloom.

The best policy, as always, is to stay fit, avoid excesses of drinking, smoking and eating, clean your teeth regularly to avoid expensive dental bills, stay in dark light to avoid excessive use of the eyes in order to avoid expensive optician’s bills, stop driving cars to keep the air fresh and clean, don’t indulge in any kind of sexual activity to avoid potential problems in that area, maintain the absolute minimum of household possessions to avoid accidents in the home, never go out to avoid potential muggers and the expensive hospital bills that could ensue.

In fact, the list is endless. Currently in the USA, the infant mortality rate at birth is 6.26 male babies per thousand live ones (the 2nd worst in the civilised world). Raise that to 50%, and you would be well on your way to a life without the dreaded hospital bills.

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» RE: From the cradle to the grave.....2 Posted by: Johnny Hempseed
» RE: From the cradle to the grave.....2 Posted by: Johnny Hempseed
Costa Rica
Posted by: chaoslegs on Apr 1, 2009 11:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading this, it really touched me because I go to the Ordway a lot. I know exactly what he is describing.

But was really saddens me is our screwed up health care system. See in 1992, my classmates and I were in Costa Rica for a 2 week field camp, as geology students we had to go to get our degree.

In the middle of the trip, my roommate in college that year was playing soccer with the local kids. He was playing goalie and dove to make a save, in the process injuring his pinky. He was of a very fair complexion, and was a bit red from exposure to the sun. After the dive and the injury he was grey, the red was gone.

The locals brought him to the clinic in town (less than 1,000 people) and they set the finger and weren't sure if it was broken. They recommended that he go to the next bigger town (about 20-30 miles away) and take an x-ray. They put him in an ambulance, drove to the next bigger town, got an x-ray discovered it wasn't broken.

Now the ironic thing is that he was, to my knowledge, the only person on the trip that bought traveler's insurance. But even with that insurance (because I think it was a reimbursement) he paid less than $20 for the ambulance ride and x-ray.

I agree, there should be set prices for many of these services, and if the providers want to raise prices, how about they justify it in a regulatory process, much like utilities do when seeking permission to raise your energy costs.

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Underinsured
Posted by: Karina on Apr 1, 2009 12:14 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even with insurance, you're still screwed if you get really sick.
Take Nataline Sarkisyan. Cigna denied the liver transplant doctors said would save her life. The family sued and Cigna relented - a few hours before Nataline died.

Or a dear friend who was required to give birth in a hospital because mosts insurances won't pay for midwives, doulas or any assistance for home births. The doctor decided her labor wasn't progressing fast enough and that they had to do a c-section. She received a bill for over $3,500 a few months later because the "surgery was not preapproved" by BCBS.

Single payer is the only way to go. It is sickening (no pun intended) that life means nothing in the shadow of the almighty dollar.

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» RE: Underinsured Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS
Just be glad you do not have an epileptic condition in the US!
Posted by: logansafi on Apr 1, 2009 12:27 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every epileptic in the US is daily at risk to have themselves whisked away in an expensive ambulation to an expensive ER.

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Passed out on a motorcycle @?mph
Posted by: Johnny Hempseed on Apr 1, 2009 12:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kirk, thanks for your post.I passed out after entering a sharp corner @ at least 45-60 mph.The bike a BMW R65 hit a telephone pole and broke it!I awoke to police and ambulence personel questioning.It took years to pay off.But helped to diagnose a congenital heart problem.A few broken bones (that were not found by the ER folks )but by my ex-wife in the ER as they were about to realease me.Since then I have been blessed by divorce poverty and Medicaid.A double bypass operation that I could have gotten in India for pennies on the dollar here.You are lucky brother.Stay well. peas in

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In Canada it goes like this
Posted by: Petrus on Apr 1, 2009 2:47 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They call the ambulance, you get taken to a hospital, you show them your health card, you get the medical service you need, and in Toronto you get a bill for $22CDN (about $17.80) for the ambulance. It is really simple, and I don't understand why progressive Americans are so jumped up about Obama when he refuses to even consider this system.

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» RE: In Canada it goes like this Posted by: LaughingModerateIndependent
allen
Posted by: pursah on Apr 1, 2009 6:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe it is our frontier spirit, but it seems American like doing most things the hard way.

Look at slavery--most of the world abolished it legally without a fight. We had to wage a bloody civil war.

Most of the world has socialized health care. What does the USA need to do to get it?

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» RE: allen Posted by: anneliese-nyc
more doctors will lower medical costs
Posted by: bepa on Apr 1, 2009 10:24 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If there were a greater number of doctors coming out of the medical schools there wouldn't be such high fees paid to doctors.

The medical schools are rationing the number of doctors to create a shortage and higher wages for doctors.

The government might subsidize medical training to keep educational costs down for new doctors and to produce more new doctors.

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Overcharging the self-insured
Posted by: drp on Apr 2, 2009 6:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Overcharging happens even to physicians. I had AMA-sponsored catastrophic insurance, which has no negotiated hospital contracts.

My wife needed a screening procedure. So I offered the hospital what medicare pays for the procedure, about $1100. BTW, that not having to go thru billing, etc. is worth 20% to the hospital. So many billing experts say it is reasonable to give a discount to cash customers. I did not even ask for this.

They agreed and took my check. Next thing I know, I get further bills amounting about $8,000. I threatened to take the matter to the state medical board and they dropped the extra charges.

Back in the old days before large-scale medical insurance, state medical boards were charged with investigating and sanctioning medical overcharging. They still have this power, though it is rarely-involked. A reasonable case can be made that anything grossly in excess of (say) what medicare or an insurance company pays is overcharging.

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Complain to your state medical board about overcharging
Posted by: drp on Apr 2, 2009 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If charges are grossly in excess of the negotiated rate for third-party payers, you have a colorable case to take to the local state medical board for overcharging.

In this era of negotiated rates, etc., this procedure is rarely involked. But it still exists. Back in the day, docs and hospitals could get severely censured ( sometimes including loss of license ) for flagrant overcharging.

BTW, this benefited the docs too. The idea is that the medical profession must self-police, less this power be taken by others.

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Health insurance is a criminal scam/cult
Posted by: DignityForAll on Apr 2, 2009 6:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The hospital charges him $10,260, the insurance corporation "negotiates" down to $2,582, and then the insurance corporation charges him $2,267. Outrageous.

The first episode of the Sopranos includes healthcare billing fraud, there must be so much corruption inside healthcare management (Wikipedia).

See the CEO of Aetna, a "health care benefits company", speak to "management" students at MIT, so creepy how he justifies the corporation to employees and customers, it's like the Scientologists.
(MITWorld video).

The Scientologists are really tuned into the ritual essence of corporate structure and management
(Scientology orientation video).

The US needs a public healthcare solution. Why not extend Medicare/Medicaid to everyone?

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Yup
Posted by: KLC on Apr 4, 2009 12:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What about those who aren't insured, all right.

Buddy of mine, an electrician who makes $12 an hour, had to have his appendix out recently. $8,000 a day for one afternoon, two nights and one morning in the hospital.

He thought he couldn't afford to carry insurance, and now that he owes more than a year's income to the hospital, he sure can't.

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» RE: Yup Posted by: anneliese-nyc
universal coverage
Posted by: KLC on Apr 4, 2009 12:28 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading the other comments, I'm not convinced the U.S. could make a single-payer system work, what with all the insurance and pharma influence in Washington.

You know, the marketplace would work if it were allowed to. There's be a huge market for affordable services and a huge pool of docs tired of being paper-pushers, all we'd have to do is bust the insurance companies' lock on pricing and lift a few regulatory barriers.

After seeing what an appendectomy costs for an uninsured person, I'd pay the neighborhood handyman take care of my surgery needs with a pair of rusty bolt cutters.

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Universal Health Care-USA should try it
Posted by: vioibi on Apr 4, 2009 3:30 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow! I'm a Canadian and last year I collapsed onto the platform after stepping out of the subway car. Because I couldn't stand up some women who helped get me to a seat and called for an ambulance. I was taken to a major downtown hospital. The EMS folks stayed with me until the ER nurses interviewed me and agreed that I needed medical attention. I was seen by a doctor who determined that I was dehydrated. It was a very hot day and I take medication which makes me sweat a lot. So over the next few hours I drank about 4 large containers of water. Once I was re-hydrated and could walk on my own, the doctor told me I was well enough to leave. So from the time I fell to the release took just over 7 hours. My cost for all of this? The ambulance service-$68 which was reimbursed by the additional health insurance I pay for as a union member. The provincial hospital insurance available to residents of Ontario paid for the hospital care. I received only 1 bill. When you present your health card the hospital bills the government directly. So my dear neighbours, support President Obama's health care plan. You won't be sorry. Take care.

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System requires this kind of attention
Posted by: cascadia on Apr 6, 2009 9:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You MIGHT have had a heart attack, an aneurysm, an embolism...The medical care system, as it is today, in April,2009(and I'm certain it's this way in all heavily industrialized, consumer countries), requires that all possibilities be ruled out--and the stories posted here attest to the fact that sometimes, when people faint, the cause is something other than simple dehydration and sleep deprivation. People(patients) must not die on the ER doctor's watch, and if they do, all available tests must have been done, all possible diagnoses considered and ruled out. If you haven't done that, the media, the patients, the legal system, your colleagues are all on your throat. Problem is that someone needs to pay for such technologically-sophisticated care, and there's the rub. Britain's NHS is foundering largely because of this problem, Canada's nationalized medical care system is inundated with debt...

As fossil fuels become more expensive, this kind of elaborate medical care will become a thing of the past, but right now, while we're sucking up the last cheap bits, it's gonna whoop your wallet(if you're uninsured), and take down what's left of the insurance system, if you are.

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