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Health & Wellness

Is Health Care a "Right" or a "Moral Responsibility"?

By Maggie Mahar, Health Beat. Posted October 10, 2008.


One thing is certain: Health care is not simply a privilege.
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I have to admit I often have found the language of health care "rights" off-putting. Yet the idea of health care as a "right" is usually pitted against the idea of health care as a "privilege." Given that choice, I'll circle "right" every time.

Still, when people claim something as a "right," they often sound shrill and demanding. Then someone comes along to remind us that people who have "rights" also have "responsibilities," and the next thing you know, we're off and running in the debate about health care as a "right" vs. health care as a matter of "individual responsibility."

As regular readers know, I believe that when would-be reformers emphasize "individual responsibilities," they shift the burden to the poorest and sickest among us. The numbers are irrefutable: Low-income people are far more likely than other Americans to become obese, smoke, drink to excess and abuse drugs, in part because a healthy lifestyle is expensive, and in part because the stress of being poor -- and "having little control over your life" -- leads many to self-medicate. (For evidence and the full argument, see this recent post.) This is a major reason why the poor are sicker than the rest of us and die prematurely of treatable conditions.

Those conservatives and libertarians who put such emphasis on "individual responsibility" are saying, in effect, that low-income families should learn to take care of themselves.

At the same time, I'm not entirely happy making the argument that the poor have a "right" to expect society to take care of them. It only reinforces the conservative image (so artfully drawn by Ronald Reagan) of an aggrieved, resentful mob of freeloaders dunning the rest of us for having the simple good luck of being relatively healthy and relatively wealthy. "We didn't make them poor," libertarians say. "Why should they have the 'right' to demand so much from us?" Put simply, the language of "rights" doesn't seem the best way to build solidarity. And I believe that social solidarity is key to improving public health.

Given my unease with the language of rights, I was intrigued by a recent post by Shadowfax, an emergency department doctor from the Pacific Northwest who writes a blog titled "Movin' Meat." (Many thanks to Kevin M.D. for calling my attention to this post.) Shadowfax believes in universal health care. Nevertheless, he argues that health care is not a "right," but rather a "moral responsibility for an industrialized country."

He begins his post provocatively: "Health care is not a right. ... I know this will piss off" many readers, "but I wanted to come out and say it for the record. ... My objection may be more semantic than anything else, but words mean things and it is important to be clear in important matters like these."

Anyone who says that words are meaningful has captured my attention. I'm enthralled. After all, words shape how we think about things. Too often, we automatically accept certain words and phrases without realizing that they define the terms of the argument.

Shadowfax then quotes from a reader's comment on his blog: "Jim II said it well in the comments the other day: 'Rights are limitations on government power.'

"Exactly," writes Shadowfax. "When we use the language of 'rights,' we are generally discussing very fundamental liberties, which are conferred on us at birth, and which no government is permitted to take away: free speech; religion and conscience; property; assembly and petition; bodily self-determination; self-defense, and the like. Freedoms. Nowhere in that list is there anything which must be given to you by others. These are freedoms which are yours, not obligations which you are due from somebody else. There is no right to an education, nor to a comfortable retirement, nor to otherwise profit by the sweat of someone else's labor."

Normally, I would object: Americans do have a right to an education. But Shadowfax is defining our "rights" in a very specific sense: Our constitutional rights make us, as individuals, free from something -- usually, interference by government, our neighbors or the majority in our society.

Shadowfax then turns from the idea of rights to what people deserve: "Some societies, ours included, from time to time decide that its citizens, or certain groups of them, should be entitled to certain benefits. Sometimes this (is) justified by the common good -- a well-educated populace serves society well, so we guarantee an education to all children. Sometimes this is derived from humanitarian principles -- children should not go hungry, so we create childhood nutrition programs. Health care would, in my estimation, fall into the category of an entitlement rather than a right. ..."


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See more stories tagged with: health, health care, health care rights

Maggie Mahar is a fellow at the Century Foundation and the author of Money-Driven Medicine: The Real Reason Health Care Costs So Much (Harper/Collins 2006).

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You say tomato...
Posted by: evanssd on Oct 10, 2008 3:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's not have those who agree on the core issue (we should provide access to quality care for all who need it) to be clouded by what we call it (a right, moral obligation, societal responsibility, blah, blah, blah). Let's just get it done already! Our progressive energy is better spent pushing our leaders to catch up to the rest of the world on this issue.

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You'll be amazed at how many of these same gun toters misuse the Constitution to speak against
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 10, 2008 4:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
healthcare. Sure, healthcare was not included in the Constitution but that was a different time. It's pathetic that this country socializes guns and violence and yet privatizes affordable and quality healthcare when all other industrial nations do otherwise.

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What about national security
Posted by: ezstevey on Oct 10, 2008 4:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If national security is so important and thus so to is defense spending, then health care should hold just as high of a priority because at the core of the issue is safety and security, whether the dangers of compromise are internal, external, national, or individual.

Obama Vids
Communication Topics

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bfreewithrp
Posted by: beauley on Oct 10, 2008 4:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With all due respect to your intelligence Maggie Mahar and to your immense knowledge in this area, but there is one point that I did not find any mention of: "Disease Prevention" and the un-mentioned fact that it is silently followed by the low income portion of our population. A hint of this proven approach has been mentioned by Barach Obama, at least that this should be part of our "Health Care" program. I have recently responded with total agreement to the director of WHO on her opinion on the subject of "Disease Prevention", with my comment that it would save trillions of dollars by all nations if this approach were adopted on a global basis.

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BOTH A RIGHT AND A RESPONSIBILITY
Posted by: Last Chance on Oct 10, 2008 4:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Simply extend Medicare to 100% of the people.

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» RE: BOTH A RIGHT AND A RESPONSIBILITY Posted by: anneliese-nyc
I beg to differ
Posted by: Axiom69 on Oct 10, 2008 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Low-income people are far more likely than other Americans to become obese, smoke, drink to excess and abuse drugs, in part because a healthy lifestyle is expensive"

Have you eaten at Mcdonalds, bought a pack of cigarettes, six pack or dime bag lately? Poor people may be more likely to have these bad habits but it isn't because they are cheaper than a healthy lifestyle. We would be better to spend the billions on education than health care. Better to educate people so they don't make poor decisions than treat them after the fact. Besides, I would rather my hard earned tax dollars were spent educating people which has unlimited benefits and no down side than spend the money on programs that treat the symptoms and not the disease.

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» RE: I beg to differ Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: I beg to differ Posted by: anneliese-nyc
» RE: I AM low income. Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: I beg to differ Posted by: Axiom69
» A reply to I beg to differ Posted by: maggiemahar
It is BOTH. Question confuses possesive Noun
Posted by: Purple Girl on Oct 10, 2008 6:55 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is the Right of All citizens to demand Their Governing Bodies take Responsilbity for the Groups over all health, since it is the cornerstone to a Healthy Economy!
So the Right is OURS
The Responsiblity is that of the Brick and Mortar We Developed as a Tool to address such Collective issues, concerns, NEEDS!

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Health care as entitlement
Posted by: Tim V on Oct 10, 2008 7:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that some degree of health care should be obligatory...

This is based on the idea that there should be limits to the "you-made-your-bed-now-sleep-in-
it" principle. Personal responsibility is important, but it should be moderated by an informal counterpart to the 8th Amendment, which prohibits "cruel and unusual punishment"
(This policy would reduce the penalty for, as opposed to "reward", irresponsible behavior.)

An interesting parrallel is that, in his book ECONOMIC JUSTICE, * Stephen Nathanson argues that people in need should be entitled to some level of welfare benefits as a "social
inheritance" - those who inherit millions of dollars in wealth are viewed as entitled to the income this wealth produces even though they don't earn it, and so should people in need be entitled to some level of public assistance.

As to Ayn Rands "slavery" argument, an essential feature of slavery is that the slaves have less social/economic power than the masters, so a situation in which putative "slaves" are more powerful than their putative "masters" is not slavery even if it otherwise fits the definition of slavery.

* This is one of the "Foundations of Philosophy" series books.

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nature of democracy
Posted by: hilaryuk on Oct 10, 2008 8:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Surely it is self-evident that modern western democracy is based on an underlying contract: the people pay taxes (if they can afford it), don't plot treason, and, above all, recognise the legitimacy of the state. In return the state has certain obligations; and western democracies, other than the USA, at least give lip service to the idea that a citizen's right to live should not depend on their income. When your constitution was written high mortality from disease was of necessity accepted as the norm. Times have changed and surely the self-proclaimed leader of the progessive world should at least try to adapt.

This year I was diagnosed with cancer and went through the whole system of detailed investigation and treatment so quickly that I was shell shocked. Both I and my husband are self employed and obviously I was not earning during this period. Unsurprisingly, he wasn't as productive as usual either. So I am grateful that nobody asked me what my income was before they took care of me.

I am grateful to our National Health System but also recognise that my excellent (and successful) care was my "right" in a modern democracy - I fulfil my side of the bargain and a legitimate modern state should fulfil its. A democratic state owes certain duties to all its citizens and quibbling over the cost - particularly in an obscenely unequal society - undermines its very legitimacy.

Don't be embarrased: call a right a "right" and remember that it's not just the citizen who has duties.

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AM I MY BROTHER KEEPER ?
Posted by: master09 on Oct 10, 2008 8:25 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Serving for God’s Glory

The end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. Above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.” Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever.For when the time has come for judgment to begin Peace to you all who are in Christ Jesus.

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What Government run health care will look like
Posted by: Axiom69 on Oct 10, 2008 8:35 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you want to know what Government healthcare will look like just look no further than the Veterans Administration (VA). The VA only serves a tiny percentage of Americans yet it is wrapped in so much beuracracy many who have benefits don't bother using them. Now multiply that to cover 300 million Americans. Consider the VA to be the BETA version of what's to come. Government Healthcare 1.0

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These problems can't be solved under capitalism
Posted by: susan rosenthal1 on Oct 10, 2008 8:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Social class is the strongest determinant of health. That means we cannot improve the health of the population until we eliminate the class divisions that sicken and kill.

The best that capitalism can do is create disease-care systems that contain the damage generated by sick social relations.

A genuine health-care system would put people first, i.e., it would oppose everything that capitalism stands for. Class, Health and Health Care

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reply on "disease prevention"
Posted by: maggiemahar on Oct 10, 2008 9:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For the poor, lack of health care accounts for only 10 percent of premature deaths.

What is much more important is poverty itself. The poor cannot afford the most nutritous foods, do not have safe places to exercise; are extremely stressed (by virtue of having little control over their lives) and as a result are likely to self-medicate (tobacco, drugs, alcohol). In addition, their environment is polluted . ..

See my recent post on how a family's income and parents education is the most important factor leading to poor health among children.
http://www.healthbeatblog.org/2008/10/a-state-by-stat.html

Medical care, immunizations, etc. also are important--but not as important.

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» Typical American perception Posted by: Cathyc
Complex issue - simple views are probably wrong
Posted by: boyydz on Oct 10, 2008 9:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We all agree that our ideal should be to have all Americans provided health care affordably. We also agree that physicians and all other workers and invested parties should be properly compensated. Today, the question is not one of health care availability - we can all access it - but affordability, so health care financing is the real issue. First of all, let's point out that the current system serves about 85% of Americans successfully. This is of course insufficient, since we want 100%. The question is this: how do we get the last 15% while not reducing the level of care (or at least not substantially so) for the current 85%?

In my view, rather than disrupt a system that today well serves 255 million Americans with a universal coverage system, some method to provide stopgap care for those people who do not qualify for Medicaid, yet cannot afford or cannot qualify for medical coverage, should be developed. This seems a far cheaper and more palatable approach to the issue than a broadbrush reform attempt. Massive changes will likely have unforeseen negative consequences, some of which could prove irreparable.

Health care may or may not be a right. Really, that's irrelevant to me. I think all right-thinking people believe that health care should not be denied to people solely due to their lack of economic resources (or perhaps anything else). If that makes it a right, so be it. At the same time, everything costs something, even health care. However, even if the cost issue were solved, this question remains: is it the place of government to require health coverage of all Americans, or would that deny people the right to secure health care through a channel of their own choosing? Clearly, right-thinking people can fall on each side of THAT question.

As an aside, I find it amusing that the posting standards prohibit "derail[ing] the conversation with conservative talking points." Can't liberal talking points equally "derail" the "intelligent, thoughtful and respectful conversation and debate" desired? Or does this reflect a (deliberate or subconscious) desire by the forum hosts to cultivate a liberal "groupthink" mentality (ie, by "definition", only liberal POVs ARE "intelligent, thoughtful and respectful"?) Hmm...

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On the VA
Posted by: maggiemahar on Oct 10, 2008 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since 2000 (beginning of the Bush administartion) the VA has been seriously underfunded while the number of Vets needing health care has been spiraling (returning from Iraq and aging Viet vets).

Prior to 2000, many, many studies in medical jounals showed that outcomes were much better at VA hospitals than in the private sector.
See Philip Longman's book-- The Best Care Anywhere.

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Reply to "Complex Issue" --Facts on Access
Posted by: maggiemahar on Oct 10, 2008 9:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In fact, all Americans do not have access to medical care.

If you go to an ER, by law they only have to stabilize you --they don't have to treat what ails you. Increasingly, ERs are turning people away if they can walk out the door (I wrote about this in my book Money-Driven Medicine.)

Moreover, people on Medicaid can have a very, very hard time finding doctors who take Medicaid. See this post on HealthBeat:

http://www.healthbeatblog.org/2008/10/the-medicaid-ch.html

Finally, I agree that most of the 85% of the population who have employer-sponsored insurance are happy with what they have. This is in large part because most have never been seriously ill.

It is only when you become ill that you discover the difference between having a piece of piece of paper called Health INSURANCE and
having Health CARE. . . . .

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» Absolutely! Posted by: LeeAnnG
It is not a matter of being embarassed to call a right
Posted by: maggiemahar on Oct 10, 2008 9:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is not a matter of being embarassed to call a "right" a "right."

It is a matter of understanding that their is a difference between a right under the law,
and what the Declaration of Independence calls an "inalienable right"-- to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Here, we've moved from the realm of "law" to the private realm of morality--where we "do unto others as we would have them do unto us" because we recognize each other as human.

To say that we, as a society, have a moral reponsibility to care for each other in times of illness is to talk about something far, far more important than a "right" under the law.

Also, if you want to build political support for universal healthcare, you should be aware that many people (particulary some doctors) find the language of "rights" off-putting.

You might not agree, but we need the support of doctors.

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Health Care For ALL Citizens is an Obligation for Any Great Nation
Posted by: drricklippin on Oct 10, 2008 10:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an nation founded in part on Judeo-Christian ethics- rather than health care defined as a "right"-I too prefer the concept of moral or ethical obligation of our nation to provide some level of basic quality affordable health care to all our citizens.

But too much medical paternalism where the infantilized citizen has no responsibilty for their own health whatsoever is also counter-productive.

That said, I believe our current excesses of the "free market model" of US health care is both unethical and immoral.

"Trading in human flesh and souls" is just not acceptable

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
ralipppin@aol.com

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"Entitlement" or "Right"...we need Universal coverage
Posted by: Old Skeptic on Oct 10, 2008 10:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether health care is an "entitlement" or a "right", we need to move beyond the current profit-driven system and provide universal, single-payer health insurance for all Americans. Even those of us who have fairly decent employer-provided insurance are seeing co-pays and co-insurance costs going up constantly.

Yes, manufacturers of equipment have to make a profit, but does it have to be so enormous? Hospitals have to make a profit or at least break even, and doctors have to be paid, and in turn, pay their own employees. Drug companies have to make a profit, but does it need to be such a huge margin?

There are things we can all do to improve our own health, such as diet and exercise, but the Fickle Finger of Fate can also come flying and tap us on the shoulder to announce a change in plans. We need to have insurance that will cover any medically necessary procedures and treatment. Call this an entitlement or a right; just make it so!

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Everyone Keeps "looking for Resolutions, to Problems of Our Society"...& the Answers can be Found...
Posted by: One American Lady on Oct 10, 2008 11:42 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In All Actions of (President) George Washington & the Founding Fathers of America.
When the Treaty of Paris 1783, was Established, & Because so Many of the People, who had been allowed to be Shipped to the New World...& were Descendants of the Kings & Queens ...the Royalty Ancestory of the Foreign Countries, Represented in the Treaty of Paris 1783, GEORGE WASHINGTON HAD TO AGREE, TO "ESTABLISH A TYPE OF GOVERNMENT..THAT WOULD BE A GUARANTEE, OF PROTECTION FOR ALL THAT LIFE ENTAILS, FOR THESE PEOPLE...& *THEIR SUCCEEDING GENERATIONS* & FOR THE MILITARY SOLDIERS WHO WOULD BE WILLING TO *PROTECT AMERICA, AS AN ^INDEPENDENT COUNTRY^...(NOT A SEPARATE COUNTRY).
"George Washington & the Founding Fathers, DID JUST THAT *CREATED A TYPE OF GOVERNMENT FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE & FOR AMERICA, ITSELF*...
THEY CREATED A TYPE OF GOVERNMENT: ^OF THE PEOPLE / FOR THE PEOPLE / BY THE PEOPLE ^.
George Washington, also, "designed the Ground Rules for Government & Establishment of Townsites, which would take place, across the Lands of the New World, *following the Establishment of the Constitutional Government*
And, when the First Townsite Company was formed, following that action... the Townsite Company "retained ALL RIGHTS & OWNERSHIP...to ALL THE STREETS & ALLEYWAYS...OF *EVERY TOWNSITE, THAT WOULD BE MEASURED IN AMERICA*...& thru that dirt / ground, it is thru the Monies from the Natural Resources, that is Supposed to Have Been Used for: Financial Support of Our Public Schools / Healthcare of All Citizens of America, *especially those of the SUCCEEDING GENERATIONS & THE U.S. MILITARY SOLDIERS & THEIR SUCCEEDING GENERATIONS.*
(In other words, George Washington wanted to Make sure the Military Soldiers, would have All Healthcare & Monies to live on).
They are the ones who fought & helped Gain Independence. He knew there would be sickness
via the Military Service, for them.
TOWNSITES WERE ESTABLISHED *EVERY 5-MILES APART*, & in Oklahoma, they are this way.
Many townsites, go Unincorporated... when they
are Supposed to Be Firmly Established for *Residential Use for Homeless, etc.*
George Washington made a Plan of Government for Every Purpose, of any Individual's Life.
It was Supposed to be Financially Supported, via the Monies from the *Natural Resources of America*... via the Streets / Alleyways, of Townsites.
(Why doesn't someone become interested enough in the Life of George Washington & BE SMART ENOUGH, TO KNOW HIM...& WHAT HE *REALLY STOOD FOR*.
Toxic Substances... causing Smallpox, made George Washington *Sterile, unable to father children*...thus... "this is the Cherry Tree, that Got Chopped Down"... not voluntarily... when he was age 17 or so... via Smallpox Epidemic.
GEORGE WASHINGTON THEN, "MADE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE...HIS FAMILY"... "ONE NATION UNDER GOD".
George had nothing else, to Work For, but the
American People. He was devoted to Children.
He saw his brother die, from Toxicity, obtained while serving in the Military. George was his Caretaker, til he died.
He was the Greatest of Political Leaders & Military Hero...
(they say family knows family, better than anyone... he is my bloodline cousin, thru the Montague Ancestory... the Montague Seal is on the Documents of the U.S. Government, written by the Founding Fathers)
One American Lady

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avoiding embarassment or ignorance?
Posted by: Gregsdiary on Oct 10, 2008 12:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...if you want to build political support for universal healthcare, you should be aware that many people (particulary some doctors) find the language of "rights" off-putting." Posted by: maggiemahar on Oct 10, 2008

Apparently there are a number of people who find the language of rights "off-putting." That's part of the problem--and avoiding won't help.

Mahar and McCain's inability to recognize healthcare as a basic human right is just one more symptom of the kind of constrained thinking produced by a society controlled by the market-place instead of the other way around.

Other symptoms include staggering economic inequality, healthcare for profit, amorality, corruption, stuffy head and… oh yeah, economic collapse.

Historically, getting back to understanding our founding Rights, Principles and Ideals provides the antidote:

Rights:

People have a Right to healthcare, just as they have a right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Further, not even Mahar can grant or revoke the Right to be treated as a human being--the Right is simply ours by virtue of being human.

How a Right is protected is another matter.

Responsibilities:

Here the question becomes, given these Rights, who is responsible for them?
"Responsibilities are often contested. If the indigent have a right to food so they don't starve to death, who has the responsibility to feed them? Is it the state, through supplying food stamps paid for by taxes? Progressives see feeding the poor as a responsibility required of the citizenry. Some conservatives argue that using tax money forces the responsibility on the public and that the responsibility should be freely undertaken, say by private charities and churches. They see them as a matter of freedom--freedom from the forced imposition of a responsibility for someone else."
--George Lakoff

Simply put, there is a responsibility to provide healthcare to all because it is a human right.

No need to be embarassed about that.

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you nailed it.
Posted by: Gregsdiary on Oct 10, 2008 12:36 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"a citizen's right to live should not depend on their income."

You would think your statement would be obvious to everyone. But there are plenty of good intentioned, compassionate people put-off by the word "rights." Maybe the focus should be why some people don't want to accept their humanity.

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» correction Posted by: Gregsdiary
» Humanity is very scary Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Humanity is very... Posted by: Gregsdiary
Right to Health or Right to be Drugged
Posted by: Dorothee on Oct 10, 2008 2:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The US is the nation with the highest spending on medical care but it is the nation with the highest rates of cancer, autism and Alzheimer's - the latter two being mainly iatrogenic diseases, i.e caused by the medical profession e.g. use of mercury in dental amalgam and vaccines (thimerosal). The US also has the highest rate of death through medical intervention. Heath care, rather disease care, is a muli-billion business. Corporations aim at increasing their profits and markets. Curing and makig people healthy is not protitable, but keeping them on drugs is.
If one simply demands a right to healthcare then it can in actual fact lead to the right to be drugged - and even killed - but not the right to be cured.
Safe natural treatments (herbal medicine, nutrition, homeopathy etc) have been suppressed or even outlawed. In the 70s David Horrobin proved that schizophrenia was a disorder of the metabolism caused by a lack of essential fatty acids. Small amounts of linseed oil and other omega3-containing oils [or megadoses of B vitamins] can cure this severe affliction - but the medical-industrial complex can't patent these cheap cures so they suppressed this research, but went on tp develop and market a drug i.e.Clozapine that was based on this very research. Our health authorities and govenments collude with the psychiatric associations that claim schizophrenics need to be constantly drugged with dangerous anti-psychotics.
The same goes for cancer treatment. Not prevention is profitable - but screening and the often fatal "treatment" is. Successful alternative cures are made illegal. The pharmaceutical industry is working towards more mandatory vaccinations (with guaranteed exemption from litigation claims for compensation), mental health screening and subsequent drugging, even of toddlers.
If the rights to life and health are not protected and if health freedom is not guaranteed then the right to healthcare can only lead to universal medical terrorism.
Please check www.whale.to and www.imva.info/ Get informed about the Codex Alimentarius agenda. Watch Ian Crane on Codex and Russell Blaylock on Nutrition and Behavior (both on google video).

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IT IS A RIGHT!!!
Posted by: cori on Oct 10, 2008 2:24 PM   
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If Canada and Costa Rica can afford health care for their people so can we. There are trillions spent on war. for profit. Its all about priorities.

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If you read the post
Posted by: maggiemahar on Oct 11, 2008 10:52 AM   
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I'm afraid some of you just read the headline and jumped to the conclusion that a "right" is more important than society's moral obligation.

If you actually read the post you would realize that calling healthcare a "moral responsibility of society" is much more powerful than calling it an
individual's "right."

"Rights" are merely rights under the laws and the constitution-- the right to assemble, to free speech, to carry arms etc. Usually these rights protect us from government (or our neigbors.)
When we start talking about our moral obligations to each other, we have moved beyond the realm of man-made laws (which are often flawed and can always be changed) to the realm of ethics and morality.
On this higher plane, we are talking about what the authors of the Declaration of Independence called "inalienable rights . . endowed by God . . .to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. " These rules are immutable-- they do not change with changing fashion. And the over-riding rule is "Do unto others as you would have them do to you. "
When it comes to healthcare "There but for fortune . . " also applies.
What makes us a civlized society is not our
ability to demand our individual rights, but our ability to recognize all humans as our equals, deserving of the healthcare they need so that they can pursue life, liberty and happiness.

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blindingly obvious
Posted by: Gregsdiary on Oct 11, 2008 6:37 PM   
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"I'm afraid some of you just read the headline and jumped to the conclusion that a "right" is more important than society's moral obligation." Posted by: maggiemahar on Oct 11, 2008 10:52 AM

Well... yeah, I'm afraid the conclusion is pretty obvious. Since our right to healthcare is the basis of our moral obligation to provide it, I would say yes, rights are more important--critical in fact.

By ignoring our rights in the first place, the moral responsibilty you refer to becomes mere sentiment.

And that doesn't help anyone. As the fact that 18,000 plus people die per year for lack of health insurance will attest.

That's a clue.

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The question was awful
Posted by: davescott on Oct 13, 2008 1:52 PM   
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It was an appallingly stupid debate question. What does it MEAN to call healh care "a responsibility?" Does that mean the individual's responsibility? Obviously the problem with that is that tens of millions of Americans cant be self-sufficient in health care no matter what. Or did he mean employer responsibility? Again, it was an asinine way to frame the debate question. What a shame Tim Russert is gone. Lehrer, Ifill and Brokaw have all been a disgrace to their profession.

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The real question
Posted by: davescott on Oct 13, 2008 1:55 PM   
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Is it morally acceptable in a nation with this much untapped private wealth --- where billionaires pay under 30 percent income tax -- for people who literally can't get health care to suffer and die?

No. And why Republicans arent in jail is a mystery to me.

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Us vs. Them ...or just We?
Posted by: Gregsdiary on Oct 13, 2008 9:10 PM   
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Maggie, I find your transition from our to they in the same sentence most intriguing: "...but OUR ability to recognize all humans as OUR equals, deserving of the healthcare THEY need so that THEY can pursue life, liberty and happinness."
Posted by: Cathyc on Oct 11, 2008 1:44 PM



You make a really good point here--in this article Mahar seems to see moral responsibility as an Us and Them relationship. "Us" to her being anyone inclined to see themselves in a superior position or having feelings of resentment and "them" being anyone in a more vulnerable position--especially in this society of obscene inequality.

It's part of the human condition to do this. It's not a part most people would be very proud of. And fortunately, there are ways to countervail the tendencies of our darker nature.

One way is through our ideals.

It is through them we can see the intersection of our own self-interest and that of the public interest.

It is in the nature of our rights, our freedoms, and our humanity that demands that in order for them to be protected, we must support the rights, freedom and humanity of others.

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A Superficial Piece About Health care as a "Right".
Posted by: macro on Oct 14, 2008 7:41 AM   
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I love AlterNet, but occasionally you wander into the land of empty verbiage. Obviously, any advanced society must take care of people who are sick. More to the point is the type of care offered. Whether socialized or not our current medical system is awful and probably doing more harm than good. You should stick to topics of what must be done to get away from the bad practices caused by the overuse of toxic drugs, unnecessary and often unproven surgical and technological procedures, all caused by the totally "unregulated" medical industry. Sincerely, Alan L.

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Personal Responsibility
Posted by: Cpt. Lesder Sodmier Diatribe on Oct 14, 2008 11:40 AM   
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..."I believe that when would-be reformers emphasize 'individual responsibilities,' they shift the burden to the poorest and sickest among us. The numbers are irrefutable: Low-income people are far more likely than other Americans to become obese, smoke, drink to excess and abuse drugs, in part because a healthy lifestyle is expensive, and in part because the stress of being poor -- and 'having little control over your life' -- leads many to self-medicate."...

~Huh! That's the biggest and best example in support of a "Personal Responsibility Argument" there has ever been!!
So, poor people are so poor they have money for frivolous activities such as smoking, drinking, and drug abuse! Hey, meat is more expensive than vegetables too!!! - So much for obesity!
The "having little control over your life" scapegoat argument is all that our culture pontificates these days! It wasn’t MY fault! - It's society! It's the rich people! It's my Genes!
What a Load of Dung!!!

Health care IS a privilege! It's a very nice and utopian ideal to attempt to turn it into a "Moral Responsibility" but there are no Moral Absolutes; no universal standard-bearer to make such claims or delegate the authority of such. Neither is Health Care a "Right" as these are not inherent either. Rights are social constructions, there's no such thing as "Natural Rights!" Natural life is an anarchy from which self-interest prescribes the formation of social organization.

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BLAME THE VICTIM. I SEE THAT OBESITY IS RAMPANT IT THE POOREST OF OUR STATES. WHY
Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Oct 14, 2008 10:23 PM   
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is that? They march hand-in-hand. How interesting. Its not possible that they could be related or even causal.

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