COMMENTS: 232
Is Prayer Good for Your Health?
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One survivor, a Christian heavy-metal vocalist who was struck in the neck in December's notorious Colorado church shootings, is now recovering, say his friends and fans, with the aid of prayer vigils throughout the United States and Europe.
And Christmas week, a 46-year-old Beach City, Ohio, surrogate mother, who had originally been thought to be carrying only one fetus, delivered a set of healthy twins after a difficult pregnancy. Her niece, the egg donor, announced that the double birth was the result of prayers she had secretly offered for months.
Arising partly out of religious belief and partly out of frustration with high-tech medicine, millions of prayers cross the lips of patients, family members, and even doctors and nurses each day in America's hospitals and examining rooms.
That has prompted a post-2000 wave of research aimed at determining what, if anything, all that praying accomplishes: Can it directly improve patients' health? Does it simply soothe? What happens if the patients aren't told they are being prayed for? And what if they do know -- can patients be harmed by prayer? The answers found so far don't seem to be making anyone feel much better.
Say two prayers and call me in the morning
A 1998 Harvard Medical School survey estimated that 35 percent of Americans pray for good health and that 69 percent of those who pray find it "very helpful" -- a bigger percentage than felt their visits to doctors had been very helpful. A much larger study conducted by the National Institutes of Health in 2002 found 43 percent of people in the United States pray for their own health, and 24 percent seek the prayers of others. Most strikingly, 73 percent of critical-care nurses in a 2005 national survey said they use prayer in their work.
Such results are no big surprise. Most Americans are religious believers and can recount for you any number of stories in which prayer appeared to heal. The highly respected Sidney Kimmel Comprehensive Cancer Center at Johns Hopkins University has even set up an "intensive prayer unit" to capture whatever benefits it might provide.
For medical prayer to have an effect, no actual divine or supernatural intervention is necessary; belief alone may give a psychological boost to a recovering patient. Any doctor or scientist wishing to lay bare the healing hand of God or the power of "energy medicine" finds that the placebo effect of prayer is much harder to account for than that of pharmaceuticals, which can be dispensed in controlled doses or replaced by sugar pills.
But one type of prayer experiment does attempt to account for the sugar-pill effect and thereby meet the rigorous statistical requirements of scientific journals. In randomized, double-blind studies, the praying is done by people who aren't in contact with the patients, the patients don't know whether they are being prayed for or not (and in some cases don't even know an experiment is going on), and the doctors and researchers don't know who is praying for whom as they go about treating patients and analyzing the data.
It's through such studies that a small cadre of researchers has been trying in recent years to go straight to the source, to determine whether prayers offered from a distance can heal patients' bodies without passing through their minds. Such "distant intercessory prayer" or "distant healing" studies have also become somewhat of a growth industry. Following only three papers published on the subject between 1960 and 1990 and just four during the 1990s, at least 18 new studies have hit the scientific literature since 2000.
Generous federal and private funding has helped fertilize work in this area, but results so far have been underwhelming. The majority of studies show no significant effects, positive or negative. Some actually find prayer harmful. Others have asked more specific questions: whether the benefits of prayer increase with "dosage" (they don't), whether it matters who does the praying (born-again Christians seem to have an edge, says one observer), and even whether prayers can travel back in time (you'll have to wait a bit for the answer to that one.)
The double-blind double-bind
A type of statistical merger -- called a "meta-analysis" -- of 15 distant-prayer studies, led by researchers at Syracuse University and published in 2006-07, was unequivocal in concluding that "there is no scientifically discernible effect for distant intercessory prayer on health," regardless of how often or how long patients were prayed for.
In contrast, Dr. David R. Hodge, an assistant professor of social work at Arizona State University, believes he has discerned positive effects of distant prayer on the health of patients. His own 2007 meta-analysis covered 17 papers, most of them in common with those covered in the Syracuse study. He did detect small effects, ones that just scraped past the customarily accepted limit at which they can be considered statistically significant.
That, combined with the fact that six of the 17 papers reported at least some positive effects, led Hodge to suggest that more open-minded medical practitioners might consider using prayer.
Although only small effects have been detected so far (no Bible-caliber tales of patients regaining their sight or rising from the dead in these papers), they're nevertheless important, says Hodge. Whether it's an omnipotent Supreme Being or some as-yet unidentified natural force at work, he maintains, the results can be blurred by experimental noise. As he puts it, "If prayer does produce positive outcomes, it is entirely plausible that the effects, as measured by quantitative methods, would be small when assessed in aggregate."
Hodge did take care to run two versions of his meta-analysis, one including and one excluding a controversial 2001 report that distant prayer boosted the success of in vitro fertilization in a Korean fertility clinic. The results, which featured prayed-for women achieving twice the rate of conception as did others, as well as a larger proportion of multiple births, were much more dramatic than others seen in prayer research (and would appear to support the claim of that egg donor in Ohio who prayed for and got twins from her aunt).
The study was soon attacked on several fronts: its allegedly flawed methodology; its renunciation by the original lead author, Dr. Rogerio Lobo of Columbia University; and the conviction on unrelated fraud charges of another author, Daniel Wirth, the person who had organized the Christian prayer groups in the United States that prayed for the Korean women in the study.
But Hodge failed to note the peculiar back-stories of some of the other scientific papers he cited as showing benefits of prayer.
For example, a double-blind 1998 California study found that six months after being prayed for, the health of AIDS patients was significantly better than the health of those who received no prayer. But in 2002, Wired magazine reported that while analyzing the data, the study's authors, having failed to find differences in death rates between the two groups, had "unblinded" the data, looked for other health measures that would show a difference and even searched medical records for other health outcomes that had not been part of the original study, all before re-blinding and reanalyzing the data. Statistical results achieved in such a way are considered unreliable at best.
A 2002 study of 39 patients in an intensive-care unit of an unidentified hospital found that those treated with prayer were released from the hospital sooner than patients who weren't; however, the two groups suffered equally from medical complications. The paper appeared in a predominantly nonresearch publication -- the Journal of Christian Nursing -- alongside articles with titles like "Evelyn and Charles: An Oasis of Love in the ER."
Finally, there was a study published in the British Medical Journal purporting to show that prayer can reach backward through time to aid patients' recovery! In 2000, medical professor Leonard Leibovici coded the identities of all bloodstream-infection patients who'd been treated at Rabin Medical Center in Petah-Tikva, Israel, between 1990 and 1996, and ran them through a random-number generator. He then allocated them randomly into two groups, one of which was then prayed for.
Despite having been hospitalized five to 10 years before the experiment was even conceived, the patients in the prayed-for group had, on average, shorter fevers and were discharged more quickly from the hospital.
In subsequent writing, Leibovici made it clear that he hadn't meant the paper to be taken as serious research; rather, it was to stand as a tongue-in-cheek warning that statistical analyses, no matter how valid, cannot be used to draw nonscientific conclusions. But two doctors in Iowa and Texas responded to Leibovici's work in a subsequent issue of the journal, claiming that advanced physics -- specifically quantum mechanics -- supports the idea of time-traveling prayer.
They even credited Leibovici with what would almost certainly be one of humanity's most amazing achievements, writing that the Israeli professor "may have laid bare a facet of reality -- unity and inseparability of all humans across space and time."
However, the odd phenomena associated with quantum physics have never been shown to occur at any scale above the subatomic, let alone among living beings. Dr. Richard Sloan, professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia University and author of the 2006 book Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine dismisses the invocation of quantum mechanics by prayer advocates as nothing more than "an intellectually cheap way of cowing the listener by appealing to something no one fully understands."
Like Sloan, Dr. Bruce Flamm, a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of California, Irvine, is a prominent critic of medical prayer research. He has been especially harsh in his analysis of the controversial study of in vitro fertilization patients in Korea, saying that the paper exemplifies many of the fallacies inherent in prayer research. He has written in one of his critiques:
If psychic healers or fortune tellers had claimed to have doubled the success rate of infertility treatments by utilizing tarot cards or Ouija boards, their manuscript would have been immediately rejected as utter nonsense by any legitimate medical journal. Yet, the apparently supernatural results of the Cha/Wirth/Lobo study were accepted and published by a supposedly evidence-based, peer-reviewed medical journal. Why?Reached by email, Flamm raised another, even more serious argument against prayer in general: "If the creator of the universe actually did respond to intercessory prayer, science would not function. Of course, science does function and quite well." On the other hand, he points out, "if prayer could immediately change the results of a research study, no results of any study on any subject could ever be trusted."
Warning: Prayer may be hazardous to your health
Harold Koenig, a psychiatrist who directs Duke University's Center for Spirituality, Theology, and Health told the journal Nature Medicine in 2005, "Probably saying a 30-second prayer at a key moment has done more good than any psychotherapy or drugs I've prescribed." Whether he was promoting prayer or expressing dissatisfaction with his standard methods, or perhaps both, isn't clear from his statement. But he was clearly assuming that prayer has no negative effects.
That may not be a safe assumption. Consider a 1997 paper examining the possible benefits of prayer for people undergoing treatment for alcohol abuse or dependence. It found that patients who reported that "a family member or friend was already praying for them were found to be drinking significantly more at six months than were those who reported being unaware of anyone praying for them."
What is probably the most widely discussed prayer publication to date -- the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) -- also found that prayer may be hazardous to your health. It was conducted by researchers at nine medical institutions, funded by the religious John Templeton Foundation of West Conshohocken, Pa., and published in 2006. The study's results, based on 1,800 patients undergoing coronary bypass surgery, could hardly have been what the researchers had expected.
Among patients who didn't know whether or not they were receiving prayer, the prayed-for and non-prayed-for groups fared the same, so "blind" prayer had no effect. But a third group of patients who were told that they were certain to receive prayer had significantly worse medical outcomes.
Outside observers attributed the negative effects of prayer in the study to phenomena like emotional stress or performance anxiety and suggested that if prayer indeed behaves like a drug that provides no benefits but has potentially harmful side effects, it should not be administered. But the STEP researchers themselves brushed off the one significant finding of their study, writing, "We have no clear explanation for the observed excess of complications in patients who were certain that intercessors would pray for them ... the excess may be a chance finding."
Richard Sloan scoffs at that explanation: "You can bet that if the results had gone the other way, if prayer had shown a positive effect, they would never have attributed that to chance."
Citing the STEP study and others that find pitfalls in prayer, Bruce Flamm warns, "Readers with a scientific world view understand that faith healing does not work but might assume it will at least do no harm. Actually, it can do harm." Some of the broader dangers he points to:
- It can cause patients to shun effective medical care.
- It can lead doctors to diminish their medical efforts.
- It can steer insurers to faith-based interventions.
- It can promote guilt by suggesting that God is somehow punishing a patient with illness or injury and demands penance as the price of recovery.
- It is often linked intimately to prayers for Christian salvation to which a patient might object if informed about it.
Despite what one might expect, Christian evangelicals have no monopoly on remote-prayer research. Much of the work spans several religions or is rooted in New Age spiritualism. The somewhat bafflingly named "Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic Trainings" (MANTRA) study led by Dr. Mitchell Krucoff of Duke University incorporated distant prayer directed at cardiology patients by Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist and Christian devotees, either with and without in-person "music, imagery and touch therapy."
The study, published in 2005, came to a by-now familiar conclusion: "Neither therapy, alone or combined, showed any measurable treatment effect."
While the MANTRA was still in progress, when hopes were still high, journalist Peter Maass followed Krucoff, a cardiologist, through his work day. Before performing an angioplasty on an 80-year-old woman, Krucoff and a nurse practitioner said silent prayers. The prayers were not part of MANTRA, but rather something that the pair did routinely, without patients' knowledge.
This raises the question of whether, having conducted rigorous research showing no statistically detectable benefit of prayer, Krucoff continues to pray for his patients. We can't say for sure -- he declined to discuss the MANTRA study with AlterNet.
But in a commentary on the STEP study's headline-making finding of possible harmful side effects from prayer -- published the year after his own study -- Krucoff and two colleagues wrote that "even well-intentioned intercessory prayer must be scrutinized for safety issues at an equal or even higher level than efficacy measures."
A cosmic vending machine?
Having found apparent benefits of distant prayer in his analyses, David Hodge feels that research on the topic is still in its infancy: "I could see someone making a case for further research on intercessory prayer based upon its wide usage among the general public [and] potential healing effects, and to better understand how it enhances well-being -- assuming that it does at all."
But he hastens to add that distant prayer may not be the best investment: "If I had a limited amount of research dollars, I would be inclined to focus my efforts on the results when a client dealing with a psychological or medical challenge prays, meditates, etc."
Alternative therapies are becoming a bigger part of the healthcare industry every year. The National Institutes of Health have received more than $900 million in congressional appropriations since 1999 to study complementary and alternative medical treatments, everything from green tea for skin cancer prevention to expressive-writing therapy for diabetes patients. But the $2.3 million in grants that NIH awarded for research on prayer during that decade has been among the most controversial money it has spent.
Now the flow of taxpayers' money into prayer appears to be slowing or even stopping. No explicitly prayer-related grants have shown up among those funded by NIH's National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine since 2004. But private universities and foundations continue to answer grant applicants' prayers, more than compensating for the decrease in federal funding.
"The countless millions of dollars wasted by groups like the Templeton Foundation on superstitious nonsense could have been used to fund legitimate scientific medical research," says Bruce Flamm. "Sadly, they have squandered vast amounts of money that could have been used to study and perhaps cure many diseases."
Pleased with the curtailment of federal prayer funding, Richard Sloan says, "Private foundations are free to fund stupidly if they want. But we should not be recommending interventions that have no explanation in this universe. It's based on a belief that the universe is a cosmic vending machine -- a belief that you can deposit prayers in the slot and the desired outcome will appear in the hopper."
And if nothing comes out, those recent studies would suggest, don't try tilting the machine.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: vox persona on Jan 11, 2008 12:41 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When considering the state of life on this planet, it is easy to see that humanity has a long way to go before Christ would be proud of our progress. As it stands now, wars and hostilities run rampant, we are polluting the air we breathe and the water we drink, and racism & religious prejudice still have a very strong foothold in many parts of the world.
When one accepts the concept of an afterlife, or continuous consciousness, it becomes clearer how truly important the Teachings of Christ still are. He wanted us to love one another, love God, taught karma (cause and effect), tolerance and forgiveness, and to serve our brothers and sisters here on Earth.
Jesus knew more about us than we know about ourselves. When He told us 20 centuries ago, "Greater things than I do ye shall also do" (John 14:12) He was expressing the Potential within us that we have yet to realize. Every scientific consensus of the day tells us that we only use 15% of our brain. Think of our untapped potential.
Christ taught that if we have the faith of a grain of mustard seed, we can move mountains (Matthew 17:20). Consider prayer and the real effects it can have in this world. It is a mental exercise, a discipline in focus.
We should take Him up on His Promise and find time each day to clear and focus our mind in prayer; for our families, our friends, our health, expressing thanks, and anything else non-selfish.
Let us all join in prayer for a better world. If nothing else, it couldn't hurt.....
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» RE: It couldn't hurt-- a brief comment
Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: It couldn't hurt-- a brief comment
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: It couldn't hurt-- a brief comment
Posted by: melloe
» RE:There is a false premise...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: here is the rest...whut happened?
Posted by: jimidee
» Re: It couldn't hurt to…read the article before commenting
Posted by: whyoung
» RE: e: It couldn't hurt to…read the article before commenting
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: e: It couldn't hurt to…read the article before commenting
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: e: It couldn't hurt to…read the article before commenting
Posted by: carbon-based
» Faith and Visualization are different things...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: It couldn't hurt?
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: It couldn't hurt?
Posted by: dmaciewski
» RE: It couldn't hurt?
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: It couldn't hurt? Not after we die.
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: It couldn't hurt? Not after we die.
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: It couldn't hurt
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: It couldn't hurt - IGNORANCE HURTS
Posted by: scottyrocks
» RE: It couldn't hurt
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: It couldn't hurt?
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» Prayer, meditation, even just simply talking to God also works
Posted by: snideelf
» I Write to God Once a Year
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Prayer = simply talking to God...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: It couldn't hurt
Posted by: Bibsi
» Very interesting
Posted by: vox persona
» Yes. It can.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Yes. It can. *HELPING STRANGERS WAS KEY*
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: Yes. It can. *HELPING STRANGERS WAS KEY*
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: It couldn't hurt
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: Richard House on Jan 11, 2008 1:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Besides why do so many Westerners beleive the Christian God is the only game in town? Arrogant.
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» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: warriornation
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: Richard House
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Further Corrections to Add to Mr. Fat Man's...
Posted by: grumble-bum
» Edit: Apologies to Dickhouse, Post Confusion With "Prayer...Denial", Below.
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: Richard House
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: peacefullaim
» Why aren't your prayers part of God's plan too?
Posted by: wisegalah
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: seenaymah on Jan 11, 2008 2:54 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Quelle surprise.
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Posted by: Blink on Jan 11, 2008 3:33 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial
Posted by: greenman
» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial
Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: Buddhism hasn't started a war...
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Buddhism hasn't started a war...
Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: Buddhism hasn't started a war...
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Buddhism hasn't started a war...
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial
Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial
Posted by: Xynyx
» Why is Islamic praying "non-threatening"?
Posted by: defrag
» RE: Why is Islamic praying "non-threatening"?
Posted by: mariyam
» RE: Why is Islamic praying "non-threatening"?
Posted by: defrag
» RE: Why is Islamic praying "non-threatening"?
Posted by: mariyam
» Smarmy double standard
Posted by: defrag
» Christian prayer may not be perfect, but conversion to Islam is definitely not the answer
Posted by: snideelf
» Tenets of Islam?!
Posted by: snideelf
» RE: Tenets of Islam?!
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE:RE: Tenets of Islam?!
Posted by: snideelf
» The way muslims "allowed it to be presented" ????????
Posted by: pig
» RE: pig, at least in this country, people are not blowing themselves up
Posted by: snideelf
» RE: Tenets of Islam?!
Posted by: Bibsi
» christianity and islam are the same.
Posted by: wisegalah
» I am not a Muslim, but...
Posted by: Blink
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Posted by: Pau on Jan 11, 2008 4:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Now if we can figure out a way to charge for PRAYER...
Posted by: defrag
» RE: Praying for Health
Posted by: jillipooh
» RE: Praying for Health
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PROFPETE on Jan 11, 2008 4:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However the concept of the Tachyonic efficacy of prayer traveling forth and back via the quantum is MY THEORY of some 45 years and is the route of prophecy and anyone who has read my columns with an open mind has written about my off-the-wall against the grain prophecies which have never failed. Google me and my writing and see for yourself, the dates of the writings and of the occurrences following are clearly visible. God appoints/anoints prophets not churches or medical study groups.
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» RE: Ludicrous
Posted by: lkagy
» RE: Ludicrous, ludricous!
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: What IS your website address, Profpete?
Posted by: oregonox
» RE: Ludicrous
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: Ludicrous
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: cordas on Jan 11, 2008 4:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would actually go a bit further in saying that I actualy find the idea offensive, why didn't god answer the prays said for my uncle who died of brain cancer... he was a loving father and devoutely religious person. Why where other peoples prays answered and not his... Why even bother striking him down with cancer in the 1st place...
All in all its just superstious claptrap like the rest of the religion stuff.
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» RE: What a joke
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: What a joke
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: What a joke
Posted by: Vik
» RE: What a joke
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: What a joke
Posted by: cordas
» RE: What a joke
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: What a joke
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: PJT on Jan 11, 2008 4:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Dumb comments
Posted by: g
» RE: Dumb comments
Posted by: jroth420
» Less is more
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Dumb comments
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: Suzen on Jan 11, 2008 5:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Healing prayer takes place on many levels. Sometimes it doesn't appear to do much on the physical, but help can come through lots of other ways - ie. someone gets an idea which helps the patient - feelings settle and suffering is relieved - members of families suddenly break through old patterns and gain understanding as they attend an ill family member - there is a smooth passing with no fear --- anything can happen. To just look at prayer with hands on hips and expectations is to miss the point entirely. As far as I know, the Creator doesn't need to prove itself to us. We need to shut up and observe the whole picture with an eye to seeing something subtle.
I, personally, am really tired of people standing around assuming that if something doesn't fit into their picture of how things should be, it doesn't exist. What ever happened to curiosity and a 'state of wonder'? That is where prayer exists.
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» RE: Prayer or Arrogance? IGNORANCE
Posted by: scottyrocks
» RE: Prayer or Arrogance? IGNORANCE
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: Prayer or Arrogance?
Posted by: factbased
» RE: Prayer or Arrogance?
Posted by: Iaela
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Posted by: ritadona69 on Jan 11, 2008 5:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Spooky action at a distance?
Posted by: factbased
» RE: Spooky action at a distance?
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: drricklippin on Jan 11, 2008 5:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is my take:
-Biomedical research has been dominated by the excesses of biology for at least the past 100 years despite the reality that all living things, including the human body, are ALSO energy systems. That is not mystical.Rather that is measurable. Biomedicine needs to re-embrace physics as a partner with biology. This could be the big story of biomedicine in the 21st century recognizing that old paradigms die hard- usualy "by funeral".
-Read the works of Drs. Larry Dossey and Gary Schwartz(google them)
-Read the research behind HeartMath technology(google)
The essence of science is open-mindedness but people like Drs. Richard Sloan and Bruce Flamm seemed to have forgotten that.
LIKE MOST SCIENCE THIS STORY IS NOT OVER. And with any luck may never well be.
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com
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» RE: xcellent Balanced Summary
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: xcellent Balanced Summary
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: xcellent Balanced Summary
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: xcellent Balanced Summary
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: shd1230 on Jan 11, 2008 6:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: wrabbit
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» RE: wrabbit
Posted by: factbased
» RE: wrabbit
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: wrabbit
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: solrev on Jan 11, 2008 6:30 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: don't believe, know
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: don't believe, know
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: don't believe, know IGNORANCE
Posted by: scottyrocks
» RE: don't believe, know IGNORANCE
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: don't believe, know IGNORANCE
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: don't believe, know IGNORANCE
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: don't believe, know
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: don't believe, know
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: ptoddchesser on Jan 11, 2008 6:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know opinions are like assholes,everyone has one.This is mine.I'm pretty sure that once man was able to formulate any kind of thought other than,
"What am I going to eat?".
His mind turned to,
"Where the hell did I come from?".
In this, God was created and in turn he created all things.For his simple mind this was the only explanation. I find it odd that today people still cling to this belief of a "God" that nurtures his "children" and cloaks the universe in his infinite wisdom.
The Bible is merely a great story book with some pretty wise lessons for those that want to learn them.But it was written by men.It was packaged by men(who also felt the need to exclude any books that related the equality of women).It was guarded by men who for so long kept it secret and doled it out as they saw fit.
I don't want to step on any toes but I believe religion is for the weak minded.Those people that need just another coping method.It's sad though,that these same people feel the need to spread their "gospel" around the world and offer false hope to those just gullible enough to receive it.
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» God and deeper thought!
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: God and deeper thought!
Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: porkchop the common
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: warriornation on Jan 11, 2008 6:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Did you read the article?
Posted by: dkm
» RE: eally more tolerant?
Posted by: anchoorite
» RE: eally more tolerant? INTOLERANCE OF IGNORANCE
Posted by: scottyrocks
» RE: eally more tolerant?
Posted by: warriornation
» RE: eally more tolerant?
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: eally more tolerant?
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: counterpoint on Jan 11, 2008 6:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an atheist who is a member of a unitarian church because of the great community I can tell you what works much better than voodoo/prayer: when church members are sick, are grieving, have big problems, or great joys such as the birth of a child we organize to call the person, send cards, we visit and bring meals, we arrange rides, we talk about issues, etc. It deepens connections, it really helps because we actually do something. "Praying" by itself (especially if it's unannounced) has no effect.
So please: do something perceptible and effective instead (or if you must cling to superstitious modes: in addition).
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» RE: how it "works": counting the hits, ignoring the misses. Better: give real help & support!
Posted by: factbased
» RE: how it "works": counting the hits, ignoring the misses. Better: give real help & support!
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: how it "works": counting the hits, ignoring the misses. Better: give real help & support!
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: craigandrew on Jan 11, 2008 6:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a thousand years we will know who was best suited for the environment today. Until then, it is every person for themselves... and you better believe in whatever it is you do 100%.
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» RE: A Shared Concept
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 11, 2008 6:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recently read a book on the horrors of the witchcraft persecution in 17th century Europe. The author concluded that the revolutionary idea of cause and effect propounded by such scientists as Issac Newton and Rene Descartes was instrumental in ending the mania.
Carl Sagan called science "a candle in the darkness". Thank god we have it.
I have talked to several fundies about the scientific studies of prayer mentioned in the article. They immediately get defensive and almost always fall back on saying: "well, the people in the study didn't BELIEVE enough!" To which I answer: "ok, so how do you measure 'belief'? Show me a way to measure it in statistics and a rational reproduceable manner".
Needless to say, I am not too popular with the fundies in my town.
PS--I am a farmer in Nebraska.
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» RE: why the fundies hate science
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: why the fundies hate science
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» used weather
Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: used weather
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: why the fundies hate science
Posted by: aji
» actually--things are coming out of nowhere all the time
Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: why the fundies hate science
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: skydog on Jan 11, 2008 6:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As we all struggle to survive under the boot heel of unfettered laissez-faire capitalism, with a for-profit health care industry, a military-industrial-media complex, and an oil industry run amok, all converging to bleed us dry, we're all wound tighter than a clock spring.
Physiologically, reducing stress has positive helath benefits. So any salve to soothe jangled nerves is going to be helpful. Some need chemicals to medicate, some do it on pure imagination alone.
Surrendering one's self to faith removes all burden of having to be face reality as it is. It's a publicly-endorsed escape from rationality. It's comforting to tell one's self that all this impending misery will be but a comma in the book of eternity (to paraphrase an enduring hero of some of faith's most irrational practitioners.)
What pisses me off is the self-righteous who proclaim that supplicating one's self before an invisible patriarch like a slope-foreheaded primitive hominid is acceptable, but smoking a little ganga isn't.
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» RE: "I believe"
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: "I believe"
Posted by: skydog
» RE: "I believe"
Posted by: Bibsi
» Why Bush can sleep at night
Posted by: dkm
» RE: Why Bush can sleep now, but he will spend eternity in HELL
Posted by: snideelf
» I believe in you, Skydog. Rates at least a "6"
Posted by: scott balogh
» Regarding the concept of "facing reality"...
Posted by: jillipooh
» RE: "I believe"
Posted by: oldumbo
» RE: "I believe"
Posted by: Xynyx
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Posted by: Roger64 on Jan 11, 2008 7:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» statistical variable shopping is it! Nothing fails like prayer
Posted by: counterpoint
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Posted by: dkm on Jan 11, 2008 7:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: rawebb revisited continued
Posted by: dkm
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Posted by: Forrest on Jan 11, 2008 7:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: placebo effect
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
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Posted by: garry minor on Jan 11, 2008 7:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kaneh bosm destroy's tumors, promotes the growth of brain cells, prevents Alzheimers, and is being used to treat MS, autism, epilepsy, migraine, arthritis, diabetes, depression, obesity, chronic pain, nausea, alcoholism, drug addiction, cystic fibrosis, asthma, emphysema, herpes, skin conditions, Parkinsons, Huntingtons, Tourettes, Crohns disease and more. We have no idea all the benefits of this resource because our FDA refuses to allow testing here in the Land of the Free.
Not only that but kaneh bosm can produce all of our paper, plastics, paints, varnishes, textiles, lubricants, fuel, plywood, structural components, insulation, livestock feed, health foods, cosmetics and more, eco friendly. In 1938 we knew of over 25,000 uses for it, who knows what we can do with modern technology. It grows without fertilizers, herbicides, or pesticides to foul the soil and water, in soil and conditions most crops won't grow, from the Equator to the Arctic circle. It will create millions of Earth friendly jobs, begin a redistribution of wealth, and create social harmony. It exposes the lie!
Kaneh bosm is cannabis, mistranslated from the original Hebrew as calamus by the Greeks in Exodus 30:23, Song of Songs 4:14, Isaiah 43:24, Jeremiah 6:20, and Ezekiel 27:19.
For those with eyes to see, If you know the Truth the Truth will set you free!
Kanaba, kaneh bosm, cannabis, haoma, hemp, taima, etc...........
Garry Minor
Columbus Cannabis Ministry, Hawaii Cannabis Ministry
Columbus Indiana
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» RE: The God of Truth!
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: counterpoint on Jan 11, 2008 8:14 AM
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Nothing Fails Like Prayer (5/20/06)
Featuring guest Richard Sloan, Ph.D., author of the book, Blind Faith: Critiquing prayer and religion health studies.
Blind Faith
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Posted by: sausage on Jan 11, 2008 8:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I asked god for it to go away.
I took two aspirins and prayed.
All praise to god, my headache's gone!
There ya go. All you need to know about the power of prayer.
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» RE: I had a headache
Posted by: MobileSucks
» RE: I had a headache
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: BlueSun on Jan 11, 2008 8:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The belief that prayer can have anything more than a placebo effect is entirely without proof. Various statistical studies come out all over the map, but are for the most part entirely inconclusive. No single case of prayer leading to divine healing in medical history has ever been scientifically established. There is, in fact, no way to determine whether any given cancer was cured by treatment, spontaneous remission, or godly intercession.
Since there are no other mechanisms for growing back a missing limb, it is the perfect test case for the value of prayer and divine intercession. And, to date, it has failed every time.
So, either prayer to a divine being can result in miraculous (unnatural, by definition) cure, in which case god must hate amputees, or the people who believe in prayer and miracles are merely deluding themselves.
Here's a little test I've devised for the faithful to test the relative merits of prayer and science. The next time you walk into a dark room, drop to your knees and pray for light instead of reaching for the switch on the wall.
You'll spend a lot of time unnecessarily in the dark (pun intended).
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» RE: God is mysteriously selective ... well said.
Posted by: JLPearson
» No medical miracles when the U.S. spends 1 TRILLION on war instead of...
Posted by: snideelf
» RE: God is mysteriously selective...
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: onegranolagirl on Jan 11, 2008 8:23 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Nice.
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Best comment ever on alternet
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Shame on you people
Posted by: dmaciewski
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Posted by: anchoorite on Jan 11, 2008 8:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
min 6:10
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Posted by: PaulK on Jan 11, 2008 8:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The best example of statistical correlation is probably ESP. Certain adepts such as Edgar Cayce could consistently read 100% of a deck of cards. Yes, he gave up playing cards because it was no fun.
People ask, if these guys are so psychic, why don't they just pick winning lottery numbers? Anecdotal evidence suggests that some might be doing this. For example, John Edwardes in Britain needed a healing clinic so he could heal people, so he took out a loan against a future lottery winning. This phenomenon is hard to study because some very wise people don't have quite the respect for moolah that most people have. Nor would devout people want to lead millions of the world's fools into lotteries and casinos.
As for healing, maybe it's just modern U.S. Christianity. U.S. Christians are pretty much not into the stuff that Jesus of Nazareth taught. It's only long distance prayer these days, and at that most Christians only believe in the U.S. medical health care system. By and large U.S. Christians have also got big issues with feeding Lazarus at their gate, and harming hairs on the heads of the little kids that harvested cocoa for their chocolate and who made their screwdrivers found at WalMart, not to mention little Iraqi kids who got cancer breathing depleted uranium smoke particles. Maybe Christianity doesn't work as well if you don't practice parts of it.
Somewhere I have a group photo of about 100 smiling terminal patients at a hospital in China, and I trust that they're all way past their expiration date. Not Christian prayer, but it might be statistically impressive.
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» RE: Statistics versus physical cause
Posted by: factbased
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Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Jan 11, 2008 8:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We do whatever good we can within the little sphere of our ability; we cannot change the whole world, but we can exert some small influence on the part we can physically touch and interact with.
Instead of referring to a distant, and apparently rather dis-interested and impotent divine being when evil confronts us; we ought to do what is in our real physical power to challenge and confront that evil, rather than struggling with the theological conundrum of "the problem of evil." Evil is, always has been and always will be; "shit happens" either because of natural processes or because of human greed and prejudice; no divine being "lets it happen" or "metes out punishment to the wicked."
There is no guarantee of justice in the world, but we can insure that we ourselves behave justly and ethically with whomever we happen to be dealing. Prayer is a waste of time and energy and a distraction from the genuine work of living an ethical, compassionate, peaceful and just life. It might make those who pray feel good about themselves, but that's about it.
I am a free-thinking agnostic and very unashemedly, a humanist; I am not an atheist or an "anti-theist;" I try to maintain respect for others and their beliefs so long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on me; when all's said and done I do not care what you believe so long as you are a person of good will and recognize that we can agree to disagree on many things.
Please do not waste your time praying for me; go out into the world and make it a better place.
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» RE: Interesting. . .
Posted by: dmaciewski
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Posted by: pcushniesr on Jan 11, 2008 8:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the True Believer maintains that his god is omni-everything, then one must conclude that things are the way they are because this god wants them to be that way. After all, would it be possible for an all-powerful agent to be thwarted in the achievement of its desires? I think not. That would render it less than all powerful. Does everything serve God's plan, as so many are wont to say? Then, if this god is all good, and if everything serves its plan (which we must assume to be good) then everything that _is_ must be good. Therefore, there really is no Evil. But can we really talk about an omni-everything entity having wants, desires? These suggest limitations. And if this entity is omniscient and knows THE future, then prayer becomes pointless, given that everything is already set. Can this god change its mind? In effect, probably not, for it would know that it changed its mind even before doing so, which would bring the whole shebang right back to square one. Actually, I think omnieverythingness would be a trap.
But, of course, we are talking about make-believe here, trying to bring the inherently illogical to a logical conclusion, a fool's errand if ever there was one. As was stated in the article, if prayer worked, there could be no science, no valid research. The supernatural is never an answer.
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Posted by: henderson on Jan 11, 2008 9:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now, at age 67, I believe in reincarnation and that we all CHOOSE, before we’re born, our parents, what we will be born into, and the lessons we need to learn in this lifetime. We are ALL “God” in some form. "God" isn't "up there", wearing a long white beard and hurling lightning bolts. Our “God” is our “higher self”, the “still, small voice”, etc. And yes, we all need to communicate with the spirit that is us and in us, and it helps to meditate and allow it to come through unencumbered by the outer, material world. (As in the song by the Police – “we are spirits, in a material world”.)
Along with this is the belief that death, losing a limb, disease, etc. are horrible, terrible things. They aren’t. They’re only lessons to be learned; by us, and the people around us. Death is only shedding this body like a cocoon and going back “home”. Like opening a door and going into the next room. Like closing one book, and going on to the next one.
I also believe that prayer can’t hurt. And yes, that it can help. But I believe that one of the first laws of this universe is that you can’t choose FOR anyone else. They have their own agenda, between them and their creator, no matter how old they are. So perhaps if they “choose” not to get well, or to lose a limb or to be born with cancer, it’s for their “life lessons”, and it won’t turn out the way WE want it to be.
My inspiration for many things is Sedona, Journal of Emergence – “channeled” voices teaching nothing but love and choice.
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» Had you actually read. . .
Posted by: Sue Deaunym
» RE: mick3
Posted by: dmaciewski
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Posted by: scottyrocks on Jan 11, 2008 9:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My children go to a baptist school and they completely understand that their peers that pray for an extraterrestrial invisible imaginary friend are delusional.
I think evolution will eventually weed out people that pray.
Scott
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» RE: Prayer is for the ignorant
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: Prayer is for the ignorant
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: Rod on Jan 11, 2008 9:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Lies
2. Dammed Lies
3. Statistics
Keep this in mind when reading any scientific study on outcomes. And follow the money.
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Posted by: willymack on Jan 11, 2008 10:07 AM
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Posted by: rewassenich on Jan 11, 2008 10:39 AM
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Why praying? For What?
People mostly pray to ask for something, seldom to thank. Why ask for something or thank for something. If there is a God, does he/she owe us anything?
The best advise still is: God helps those who help themselves.
Suggestion: On god and religion read Immanuel Kant, also on elightenment - we really need to be enlightened! About ourselves, freedom, personal and otherwise.
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Posted by: vasumurti on Jan 11, 2008 10:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"O give thanks unto the Lord; call upon His name; make known His deeds among the people. Sing unto Him, sing psalms unto Him: talk ye of all His wondrous works. Glory ye in His holy name." (Psalms 105:1-4) "...Praise Him with the timbrel and the dance; praise Him upon the loud cymbals." (Psalms 150:4-5)
Israel Baal Shem Tov (1699-1761), the great Jewish mystic, founded Hasidism, a popular pietist movement within Judaism, in which members dance and chant in glorification of God. The Hasidism were especially influenced by verses in Psalms calling for the joyful worship of the Lord through song. (Psalms 100:1,2, 104:33)
According to The Jewish Almanac: "In the Jewish tradition the name actually partakes of the essence of God. Thus, knowledge of the name is a vehicle to God, a conveyor of divine energy, an interface between the Infinite and the finite...It is curious that a tradition that places such a strong emphasis on the one God possesses such a large number of names for the divine. Each name, however, actually represents a different quality or aspect of God."
When teaching his disciples how to pray, Jesus glorified God’s holy name: "Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name." (Matthew 6:9) Jesus approved of his disciples’ singing joyfully in praise of God. (Luke 19:36-40) Of his own name, Jesus said: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there with them." (Matthew 18:20)
Paul told the gentiles to speak to one another in psalms and hymns, to sing heartily and make music to the Lord. (Ephesians 5:19) He taught them to instruct and admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. (Colossians 3:16) "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)
According to Eusebius, there was "one common consent in chanting forth the praises of God," in the early Christian churches. In addition to praising the Lord’s name and glories through music, song, and dance, there has also emerged the practice of meditating upon God by chanting upon beads of prayer. St. John Chrysostom recommended the "prayerful invocation of the name of God," which he said should be "uninterrupted."
The repetition of the Jesus prayer ("Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me") became a regular practice among members of the Eastern Church. In The Way of a Pilgrim, a Russian monk writes: "The continuous interior prayer of Jesus is a constant, uninterrupted calling upon the divine name of Jesus with the lips, in the spirit, in the heart..."
In Islam, the names of God are held sacred and meditated upon. According to tradition, there are 99 names of Allah, found inscribed upon monuments such as the Taj Mahal and on the walls of mosques. These names are chanted on an Islamic rosary, which consists of three sets of 33 beads.
The Sikhs call God "Nama," or "the Name." Guru Nanak, the founder of the Sikh religion, prayed, "In the ambrosial hours of the morn I meditate on the grace of the true Name," and says that he was instructed by God in a vision to "Go and repeat My Name, and cause others to do likewise."
Rosaries are used in Buddhism. Members of Japan’s largest Buddhist order, the Pure Land sect, practice repetition of the name of the compassionate Buddha ("namu amida butsu"). Founder, Shinran Shonin says, "The virtue of the Holy Name, the gift of him that is enlightened, is spread throughout the world." Through the name of Buddha a worshipper is liberated from repeated birth and death and joins the Buddha in the "Pure Land."
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» RE: prayer is not a crime
Posted by: factbased
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Jan 11, 2008 10:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also it takes you outside of yourself and thus reduces stress all of this is good for the individual..
We are hard wired to have some sense of the spiritual and or mystical or even cosmological..
For some of us the lucky ones all this rolls into one sense of the splendor and vastness and yet connection of everything and transcends and interweaves with any given religion..
The cells in our brains correspond with the billions of stars in the heavens..we are stardust and energy made material...it's all so cool..vast..mystical..
I pity anyone here who has no sense of the mystical or cosmological or epistemological in their life and being..
"Just remember we are very small and life goes on within and without you.."
George Harrison..
He's here with me right now..
See epistemology..
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Posted by: sweet_byrd on Jan 11, 2008 11:18 AM
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Posted by: grumble-bum on Jan 11, 2008 11:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead, I wish to address the study on alcoholics & prayer cited in the article. The study was meant to "prove" that prayer had an effect on people who were aware of those prayers. Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to think of a worse group to test such a non-objective theory on.
Did the researchers intend to find a negative effect from prayer in this study? Because, by nature of the disease in question, & the test subjects, they were virtually guaranteed to find just that.
Anyone who has struggled with alcoholism (like me) can tell you that, after a certain point, a major psychological factor in continued addiction is GUILT. Having reached a given level of self-disgust & degradation, the alcoholic sees (at least partially) the negative impact of their behavior & becomes consumed with guilty feelings. This often results in attempts to stop or control their drinking, which usually fail. With each failure, the feelings of guilt intensify, eventually becoming a primary engine for continued drinking.
Either the researchers had no understanding of the well-known dynamics of alcoholism, or they chose that group as the subject of their test because they wanted to skew the study to find evidence of a "negative" prayer effect. Of course many of the subjects who knew they were being prayed for were drinking more heavily 6 months later. Not only had they failed themselves, but they'd failed their loved ones (via an official medical study, no less), & ultimately failed/been "condemned" by God! Gee, I think I'd still be drinking (if not dead) under such circumstances, myself.
By way of analogy, if this test had been done on cancer patients, the results would be similar if the researchers had injected those patients with extra cancer cells & then recorded the resulting increase in deaths as "proof" of the harmful effects of prayer.
Really, not only a markedly suspect study (even in comparison to some of the goofier ones listed), but morally highly questionable, given that alcoholism is a disease unique in it's mysterious component of "free will" (which is then influenced by guilt). I must wonder how many people died at least partly as a result of this cynical meddling?
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» RE: The Problem With the Alcoholism Study...
Posted by: GPFrank
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Posted by: bitsfick on Jan 11, 2008 12:45 PM
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Posted by: rhinojos on Jan 11, 2008 5:23 PM
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Posted by: carbon-based on Jan 13, 2008 5:04 AM
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Posted by: Flavious on Jan 11, 2008 11:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: praying is begging
Posted by: Richard House
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Posted by: warriornation on Jan 11, 2008 12:18 PM
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» RE: just a comment on cannabis
Posted by: MobileSucks
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Posted by: Bizby on Jan 11, 2008 12:51 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A
If there is a counter argument to the argument in the video, I'd like to hear it.
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Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Jan 11, 2008 1:02 PM
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some people do worse because they thought they weren't bad off enough to warrent prayer and feel that because they are apparently in need of prayer interpret their situation as worse...others do better with prayer because they feel (at least) that others care about them...
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Posted by: Ellie1 on Jan 11, 2008 1:13 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kenn on Jan 11, 2008 1:58 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Millions of others, including children would consider THAT a miracle!
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» conflicts with someone else's "prayers"
Posted by: zooeyhall
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Posted by: MobileSucks on Jan 11, 2008 2:30 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: davesilvan on Jan 11, 2008 3:00 PM
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(for example, I lost 80% of my hearing from ototoxic drugs given to me when I was in the hospital in '02 over six months. When I moved home we had to get hooked up with comcast internet service because I could no longer use a phone; of course I researched ototoxic drugs, that's how I'd even learned the term 'ototoxic,' and saw somewhere that I may slowly regain my hearing over time [I also refused to take any more medications when I learned that pills you take could very well reduce/remove ones hearing] and I would swear that I thought my hearing was getting better, but when I went to an audiologist and got my hearing tested again, it was the same as it was a year before, and the audiologist said she'd never heard of anyone who regained their hearing.)
After all, how many people have seen jebus' image on toast, in water drainage under overpasses, etc. But there is no god, so get over it. Going back in homo sapien history, possibly the very first homo sapien perhaps hid in his cave while lightning flashed and thunder boomed, perhaps thinking he was being punished for the animal he just killed and ate; perhaps he thought he was being punished for forcing sex on a female counterpart. So he blamed it on a higher being, explaining what couldn't be explained. And thus, religion was born.
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Posted by: MobileSucks on Jan 11, 2008 3:03 PM
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What some of them might not realize is that those special feelings they get when they are standing there, embracing one another so gently, praying so intently and passionately in that prayer circle together -is that it ain't the "Holy Spirit" they feel inside them.
Heh, one day they'll become confused by these feelings. Maybe they will be led astray by Satan and "worldly temptations", perhaps finding themselves taking "wide stances" at urinals in men's restrooms, like good Christians before them such as Senator Larry Craig. But then, thank God, they will see the error of their ways, perhaps with the help of their church and family and friends. Then they will immediately go to a Christian center that will "cure" them of their wickedness, where they will enjoy taking part in more prayer circles, and once again will feel the Holy Spirit and God's grace in their lives.
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» RE: prayer circles
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: prayer circles
Posted by: GPFrank
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Posted by: moxey on Jan 11, 2008 4:36 PM
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Posted by: GPFrank on Jan 11, 2008 5:08 PM
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I was told that as soon as I breathed on my own, they could get the chest tube out, their goal was in 24 hours. I had to think to take every breath I took. Fortunately, because I stayed awake remembering to breathe the tube came out in 18 hours. It is my feeling that any sort of prayer that verbalized any object would have been a distraction from that one main object, of breathing, surviving this ordeal I may have been recalling Biblical sayings but they ran through my head, not by intention.
Another situation in which I think prayer is a distraction: even for a minute, or even for a minute of silence is the classroom. Those who are in the classroom; the teacher and the students have one job and duty and that is to think about what is on the agenda to try to learn, but most of all to think. But prayer is about not thinking, not about one's responsibility, but about shifting responsibility to another agent. It is a form of passing the buck put in somewhat arcane terms. Because in the idea of "to whom" it is being addressed there is nothing more arcane than that in any cognitive sense. And the arcaneness in itself is part of the distraction because that is how it has been taught in the religion.
It is my feeling that when there are "invocations" and the like in parochial and
"denominational" schools, the best students in performance manage to "pass over" the ritual as
a duty to the institution rather than try to grasp meaning of the ritual, when teaching and lecture are to follow. That at least has been my observation of people under such circumstances.
Again, in regard to visiting a patient, I feel if visiting somebody desperately or violently ill the only thing that may help is concentrating on the patient, which his or her appearance appropriately calls for.
Turning down or turning around with some kind of mumbling if it were me in the bed, I would say, "Get out of here!"
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jan 11, 2008 6:14 PM
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Posted by: cfuz7 on Jan 11, 2008 7:50 PM
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Never understood it, wish on a star at times, feel the surge of the cosmos and give a "thanks very much cosmos" in my head. Calling up a friend or family member and chatting them up, or just being there doing "practical majik" like cleaning up a bit, making a meal, putting some good tunes, or a cool flick on the entertainment system, providing a good read or just hanging out (or not, many need solitude in healing)works as well as anything a layman can do. I am amazed at humans in the health care field, I couldn't stick needles in people or deal with any of it. I'm proud of them and I have never prayed except maybe in an almost car accident, in extreme physical pain (like child birth) and that "prayer" was strewn with "blasphemy" (grin).
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Posted by: GPFrank on Jan 11, 2008 8:44 PM
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The dynamics of Alcoholics Anonymous: The alcoholic is in the grip of a disease that has a grip on his/her soul (To put in the vernacular)
I speak of the soul as mentioned in the Talmud:
"The breathing, coursing of the blood and emotions".
But there is no known cure for alcoholism; it is
in the class of nervous system illness as addictions. But AA helps the person keep sober.
The person has to acknowledge that the disease has a grip on her/him as a "higher power". So that higher power has to be replaced by a power higher than that, through the series of twelve steps thereby keeping on going to meetings. With addiction there is a paradox. The addict thinks he or she is concentrating staying sober but actually is thinking about the drink. So that thinking about the higher power takes the mind off the drink (or the drug or nicotine)
(I am not alcoholic but I had alcoholism in the family so spent two years in "Alanon" because
that person's alcoholism also is a "higher power") When the addict stays sober the addict is said to be in a state of recovery or "recovering".
That is the reality of chronic illness: and the
question, "How do we put up with it" Especially when taking care of someone with ailments such as dementia: the caretaker is also sick and cries out for help. Where to?
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Posted by: cold2touch on Jan 11, 2008 9:15 PM
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I am sure joint Baptist-NIH funds are awaiting the well crafted grant proposals to study the matter.
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Posted by: toughyt on Jan 11, 2008 9:17 PM
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I can assure you, there was no positive effect and I felt more depressed in the hospital than during my first surgery, when I was not prayed for. In my opinion, as a patient, prayer (in whatever form) can be very effective because it will impart on the patient a sense of being cared about by somebody. And for the person praying, they will gain sympathy for the patient by spending time thinking about them. The mind-body connection of being cared about and healing seems self-evident, although that may be presumptuous on my part.
However, this is contradicted by the idea of long-distance prayer. I feel that the author of this article is suggesting that the researchers consider prayer an actual wish list to god. This should be clarified. Instead, if prayer is defined as a meditation on the nature of being that can instill a profound sense of calm, it would make sense that it could be beneficial for the patient. To follow this reasoning through to the end, if that sense of well-being can be imparted by the 'prayer' onto the patient by interacting with them then the stresses on the body are lessened, despite the physical trauma of the surgery.
The big business of medical care and general indifference to the emotional needs of patients cannot be overcome by equally absent emotional care such as long-distance prayer. The idea of pray as an agent of healing does not seem as far fetched when friends or family are intimately involved in the process with the patient in need.
toughyt-- 35 F
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Posted by: Sue Deaunym on Jan 12, 2008 2:44 AM
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"I also believe that prayer can’t hurt."
But, stay blissful.
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Posted by: Sue Deaunym on Jan 12, 2008 3:35 AM
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Hope can diminish motivation, compel irresponsibility, increase inertia, and lead to languor. (Which is to say, hope can impair healing in some circumstances with some people.)
Prayer can sensitize or desensitize the prayor. It can increase alertness, or it can numb the senses.
I conclude: Prayer can increase hope, which can sometimes enhance healing, but sometimes can hinder it.
I'll never pray for healing. I may use meditation, intellectualization, support and comfort from loved ones, even some kaneh bosm to deal with suffering, but never prayer. If my caregivers need prayer to better attend to my needs, they are welcome to pray all they want. If their prayer makes them more passive or numb to my suffering, I'll thank them to stop it.
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Posted by: Caesar77 on Jan 12, 2008 2:14 PM
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Jan 12, 2008 2:18 PM
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I respect tolerant live and let live religious persons, but i spit on the rest of you, zealots.
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Jan 12, 2008 2:22 PM
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Its ok if you need to believe in God and Santa, but dont try convince to us.
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Jan 12, 2008 2:35 PM
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WE ARE WINNING AND WE WILL BURY YOUR GOD(S), DEITIES AND OTHER SUPERNATURAL ENTITIES so that humanity can leave in peace without priests nor mollah nor sacrifices nor anything.
And while I'm at it, Jesus who I'm certain was a good man, would be ashamed to see what you've done of his faith and word. And this applies to all the religions; Shame on you. But your world is coming to an end, the darkness of religion, faith and intolerance is making way for the light of Science, comprehension and tolerance.
But no we cant tolerate the intolerants so yeah it doesnt apply to the zealots.
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Posted by: setterwoman on Jan 13, 2008 11:48 PM
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Better to do something to stop the war.
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Posted by: yantacaw on Jan 14, 2008 11:50 PM
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Posted by: eric555 on Jan 15, 2008 3:44 PM
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More often then not prayer is the last thing we do. After we have been to all the doctors and specialist we can find, After we have exhusted man's ability to help us, then we turn to God.
And he should listen to us? Ha!
We also tend to look at an unwanted result as unanswered prayer. There was an answer, just not the one we were looking for. Many of us pray as if God is supposed to bend to our will. It is the other way around people.
"Thy will, not mine be done."
When my Father was sick three years ago and needed a heart transplant I imagine a lot of people were praying for him. I know I was. I couldn't bring myself to pray that he get the transplant. Let's face it that means someone else had to die.
Instead I prayed that he would be as comfortable as the doctors could make him and that if it was not in Gods plan for my Father to get the transplant, then I asked that he not be forced to hang on an longer then necessary, just let it be done. In the end I was willing to accept Gods will, which is really all we can do.
The Old Man got the transplant and he is still here with us today. The extra time with him is priceless.
Is it because of prayer, I would say no. I certainly do not think my prayer is better then that of anyone else. I say it is because that is what God had in mind all along. Prayer is not a wish list or a Dear Santa letter. It is a private communication between you and your God. It is meant to deepen your relationship. Is is as much about listening as it is about talking.
Your creator already knows what you need and will provide it. Instead of coming to him with a shopping list we should instead be using it the time to learn what he would have from us.
Matthew 6:25 ¶Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
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Posted by: Bearzerker on Jan 16, 2008 3:06 AM
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Just think of it as a placebo effect if the atheists wont let go of the the "God/Gods delusional aspect...
personally I find great comfort in believing in something greater than mankind...
we are after all, what we think we are...
we aspire to live, to dream...
to become more...
all for the future...
Is the stairway to heaven actually a strand of DNA?... or maybe its your children's, children's children, a hundred times over?
its amazing... apposable thumbs and a mind to ponder the reasons why!
amazing
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Jan 18, 2008 9:01 PM
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While you are at it, why don't you ask Him why He made you so sick in the first place? Or why you have a fatal disease, but the loser next door is all healthy and stuff.
As the article states SCIENCE has put to rest once and for all the silliness of prayer.
By the way, why do we not hear about all the praying the Shrub used to do anymore? Did he stop? Did God stop answering? Did God give bad advice? Or is He playing a mean joke (on all of us)? I believe any thinking person knows the answer to that.
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Posted by: vox persona on Jan 11, 2008 12:41 AM
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When considering the state of life on this planet, it is easy to see that humanity has a long way to go before Christ would be proud of our progress. As it stands now, wars and hostilities run rampant, we are polluting the air we breathe and the water we drink, and racism & religious prejudice still have a very strong foothold in many parts of the world.
When one accepts the concept of an afterlife, or continuous consciousness, it becomes clearer how truly important the Teachings of Christ still are. He wanted us to love one another, love God, taught karma (cause and effect), tolerance and forgiveness, and to serve our brothers and sisters here on Earth.
Jesus knew more about us than we know about ourselves. When He told us 20 centuries ago, "Greater things than I do ye shall also do" (John 14:12) He was expressing the Potential within us that we have yet to realize. Every scientific consensus of the day tells us that we only use 15% of our brain. Think of our untapped potential.
Christ taught that if we have the faith of a grain of mustard seed, we can move mountains (Matthew 17:20). Consider prayer and the real effects it can have in this world. It is a mental exercise, a discipline in focus.
We should take Him up on His Promise and find time each day to clear and focus our mind in prayer; for our families, our friends, our health, expressing thanks, and anything else non-selfish.
Let us all join in prayer for a better world. If nothing else, it couldn't hurt.....
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» RE: It couldn't hurt-- a brief comment
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» RE: It couldn't hurt-- a brief comment
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» RE: It couldn't hurt-- a brief comment
Posted by: melloe
» RE:There is a false premise...
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» RE: here is the rest...whut happened?
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» Re: It couldn't hurt to…read the article before commenting
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» RE: e: It couldn't hurt to…read the article before commenting
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» RE: e: It couldn't hurt to…read the article before commenting
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» RE: e: It couldn't hurt to…read the article before commenting
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» Faith and Visualization are different things...
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» RE: It couldn't hurt?
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: It couldn't hurt?
Posted by: dmaciewski
» RE: It couldn't hurt?
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: It couldn't hurt? Not after we die.
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: It couldn't hurt? Not after we die.
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» RE: It couldn't hurt
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: It couldn't hurt - IGNORANCE HURTS
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» RE: It couldn't hurt
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: It couldn't hurt?
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» Prayer, meditation, even just simply talking to God also works
Posted by: snideelf
» I Write to God Once a Year
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» RE: Prayer = simply talking to God...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: It couldn't hurt
Posted by: Bibsi
» Very interesting
Posted by: vox persona
» Yes. It can.
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» RE: Yes. It can. *HELPING STRANGERS WAS KEY*
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: Yes. It can. *HELPING STRANGERS WAS KEY*
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» RE: It couldn't hurt
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Posted by: Richard House on Jan 11, 2008 1:32 AM
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Besides why do so many Westerners beleive the Christian God is the only game in town? Arrogant.
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» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
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» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
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» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
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» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
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» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Further Corrections to Add to Mr. Fat Man's...
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» Edit: Apologies to Dickhouse, Post Confusion With "Prayer...Denial", Below.
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
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» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
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» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
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» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
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» Why aren't your prayers part of God's plan too?
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» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: seenaymah on Jan 11, 2008 2:54 AM
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Quelle surprise.
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Posted by: Blink on Jan 11, 2008 3:33 AM
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» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial
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» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial
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» RE: Buddhism hasn't started a war...
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» RE: Buddhism hasn't started a war...
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» RE: Buddhism hasn't started a war...
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» RE: Buddhism hasn't started a war...
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» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial
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» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial
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» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial
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» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial
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» Why is Islamic praying "non-threatening"?
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» RE: Why is Islamic praying "non-threatening"?
Posted by: mariyam
» RE: Why is Islamic praying "non-threatening"?
Posted by: defrag
» RE: Why is Islamic praying "non-threatening"?
Posted by: mariyam
» Smarmy double standard
Posted by: defrag
» Christian prayer may not be perfect, but conversion to Islam is definitely not the answer
Posted by: snideelf
» Tenets of Islam?!
Posted by: snideelf
» RE: Tenets of Islam?!
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE:RE: Tenets of Islam?!
Posted by: snideelf
» The way muslims "allowed it to be presented" ????????
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» RE: pig, at least in this country, people are not blowing themselves up
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» RE: Tenets of Islam?!
Posted by: Bibsi
» christianity and islam are the same.
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» I am not a Muslim, but...
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Posted by: Pau on Jan 11, 2008 4:09 AM
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» Now if we can figure out a way to charge for PRAYER...
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» RE: Praying for Health
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» RE: Praying for Health
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: PROFPETE on Jan 11, 2008 4:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However the concept of the Tachyonic efficacy of prayer traveling forth and back via the quantum is MY THEORY of some 45 years and is the route of prophecy and anyone who has read my columns with an open mind has written about my off-the-wall against the grain prophecies which have never failed. Google me and my writing and see for yourself, the dates of the writings and of the occurrences following are clearly visible. God appoints/anoints prophets not churches or medical study groups.
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» RE: Ludicrous, ludricous!
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» RE: Ludicrous
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» RE: Ludicrous
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Posted by: cordas on Jan 11, 2008 4:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would actually go a bit further in saying that I actualy find the idea offensive, why didn't god answer the prays said for my uncle who died of brain cancer... he was a loving father and devoutely religious person. Why where other peoples prays answered and not his... Why even bother striking him down with cancer in the 1st place...
All in all its just superstious claptrap like the rest of the religion stuff.
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» RE: What a joke
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» RE: What a joke
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» RE: What a joke
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» RE: What a joke
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» RE: What a joke
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» RE: What a joke
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» RE: What a joke
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Posted by: PJT on Jan 11, 2008 4:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Dumb comments
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» RE: Dumb comments
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» Less is more
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» RE: Dumb comments
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: Suzen on Jan 11, 2008 5:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Healing prayer takes place on many levels. Sometimes it doesn't appear to do much on the physical, but help can come through lots of other ways - ie. someone gets an idea which helps the patient - feelings settle and suffering is relieved - members of families suddenly break through old patterns and gain understanding as they attend an ill family member - there is a smooth passing with no fear --- anything can happen. To just look at prayer with hands on hips and expectations is to miss the point entirely. As far as I know, the Creator doesn't need to prove itself to us. We need to shut up and observe the whole picture with an eye to seeing something subtle.
I, personally, am really tired of people standing around assuming that if something doesn't fit into their picture of how things should be, it doesn't exist. What ever happened to curiosity and a 'state of wonder'? That is where prayer exists.
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» RE: Prayer or Arrogance? IGNORANCE
Posted by: scottyrocks
» RE: Prayer or Arrogance? IGNORANCE
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» RE: Prayer or Arrogance?
Posted by: factbased
» RE: Prayer or Arrogance?
Posted by: Iaela
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Posted by: ritadona69 on Jan 11, 2008 5:13 AM
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» RE: Spooky action at a distance?
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» RE: Spooky action at a distance?
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Posted by: drricklippin on Jan 11, 2008 5:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is my take:
-Biomedical research has been dominated by the excesses of biology for at least the past 100 years despite the reality that all living things, including the human body, are ALSO energy systems. That is not mystical.Rather that is measurable. Biomedicine needs to re-embrace physics as a partner with biology. This could be the big story of biomedicine in the 21st century recognizing that old paradigms die hard- usualy "by funeral".
-Read the works of Drs. Larry Dossey and Gary Schwartz(google them)
-Read the research behind HeartMath technology(google)
The essence of science is open-mindedness but people like Drs. Richard Sloan and Bruce Flamm seemed to have forgotten that.
LIKE MOST SCIENCE THIS STORY IS NOT OVER. And with any luck may never well be.
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com
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» RE: xcellent Balanced Summary
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: xcellent Balanced Summary
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: xcellent Balanced Summary
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: xcellent Balanced Summary
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: shd1230 on Jan 11, 2008 6:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: wrabbit
Posted by: anchoorite
» RE: wrabbit
Posted by: factbased
» RE: wrabbit
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: wrabbit
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: solrev on Jan 11, 2008 6:30 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: don't believe, know
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: don't believe, know
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: don't believe, know IGNORANCE
Posted by: scottyrocks
» RE: don't believe, know IGNORANCE
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: don't believe, know IGNORANCE
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: don't believe, know IGNORANCE
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: don't believe, know
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: don't believe, know
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: ptoddchesser on Jan 11, 2008 6:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know opinions are like assholes,everyone has one.This is mine.I'm pretty sure that once man was able to formulate any kind of thought other than,
"What am I going to eat?".
His mind turned to,
"Where the hell did I come from?".
In this, God was created and in turn he created all things.For his simple mind this was the only explanation. I find it odd that today people still cling to this belief of a "God" that nurtures his "children" and cloaks the universe in his infinite wisdom.
The Bible is merely a great story book with some pretty wise lessons for those that want to learn them.But it was written by men.It was packaged by men(who also felt the need to exclude any books that related the equality of women).It was guarded by men who for so long kept it secret and doled it out as they saw fit.
I don't want to step on any toes but I believe religion is for the weak minded.Those people that need just another coping method.It's sad though,that these same people feel the need to spread their "gospel" around the world and offer false hope to those just gullible enough to receive it.
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» God and deeper thought!
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: God and deeper thought!
Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: porkchop the common
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: warriornation on Jan 11, 2008 6:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Did you read the article?
Posted by: dkm
» RE: eally more tolerant?
Posted by: anchoorite
» RE: eally more tolerant? INTOLERANCE OF IGNORANCE
Posted by: scottyrocks
» RE: eally more tolerant?
Posted by: warriornation
» RE: eally more tolerant?
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: eally more tolerant?
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: counterpoint on Jan 11, 2008 6:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an atheist who is a member of a unitarian church because of the great community I can tell you what works much better than voodoo/prayer: when church members are sick, are grieving, have big problems, or great joys such as the birth of a child we organize to call the person, send cards, we visit and bring meals, we arrange rides, we talk about issues, etc. It deepens connections, it really helps because we actually do something. "Praying" by itself (especially if it's unannounced) has no effect.
So please: do something perceptible and effective instead (or if you must cling to superstitious modes: in addition).
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» RE: how it "works": counting the hits, ignoring the misses. Better: give real help & support!
Posted by: factbased
» RE: how it "works": counting the hits, ignoring the misses. Better: give real help & support!
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: how it "works": counting the hits, ignoring the misses. Better: give real help & support!
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: craigandrew on Jan 11, 2008 6:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a thousand years we will know who was best suited for the environment today. Until then, it is every person for themselves... and you better believe in whatever it is you do 100%.
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» RE: A Shared Concept
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 11, 2008 6:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recently read a book on the horrors of the witchcraft persecution in 17th century Europe. The author concluded that the revolutionary idea of cause and effect propounded by such scientists as Issac Newton and Rene Descartes was instrumental in ending the mania.
Carl Sagan called science "a candle in the darkness". Thank god we have it.
I have talked to several fundies about the scientific studies of prayer mentioned in the article. They immediately get defensive and almost always fall back on saying: "well, the people in the study didn't BELIEVE enough!" To which I answer: "ok, so how do you measure 'belief'? Show me a way to measure it in statistics and a rational reproduceable manner".
Needless to say, I am not too popular with the fundies in my town.
PS--I am a farmer in Nebraska.
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» RE: why the fundies hate science
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: why the fundies hate science
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» used weather
Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: used weather
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: why the fundies hate science
Posted by: aji
» actually--things are coming out of nowhere all the time
Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: why the fundies hate science
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: skydog on Jan 11, 2008 6:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As we all struggle to survive under the boot heel of unfettered laissez-faire capitalism, with a for-profit health care industry, a military-industrial-media complex, and an oil industry run amok, all converging to bleed us dry, we're all wound tighter than a clock spring.
Physiologically, reducing stress has positive helath benefits. So any salve to soothe jangled nerves is going to be helpful. Some need chemicals to medicate, some do it on pure imagination alone.
Surrendering one's self to faith removes all burden of having to be face reality as it is. It's a publicly-endorsed escape from rationality. It's comforting to tell one's self that all this impending misery will be but a comma in the book of eternity (to paraphrase an enduring hero of some of faith's most irrational practitioners.)
What pisses me off is the self-righteous who proclaim that supplicating one's self before an invisible patriarch like a slope-foreheaded primitive hominid is acceptable, but smoking a little ganga isn't.
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» RE: "I believe"
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: "I believe"
Posted by: skydog
» RE: "I believe"
Posted by: Bibsi
» Why Bush can sleep at night
Posted by: dkm
» RE: Why Bush can sleep now, but he will spend eternity in HELL
Posted by: snideelf
» I believe in you, Skydog. Rates at least a "6"
Posted by: scott balogh
» Regarding the concept of "facing reality"...
Posted by: jillipooh
» RE: "I believe"
Posted by: oldumbo
» RE: "I believe"
Posted by: Xynyx
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Posted by: Roger64 on Jan 11, 2008 7:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» statistical variable shopping is it! Nothing fails like prayer
Posted by: counterpoint
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Posted by: dkm on Jan 11, 2008 7:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: rawebb revisited continued
Posted by: dkm
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Posted by: Forrest on Jan 11, 2008 7:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: placebo effect
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
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Posted by: garry minor on Jan 11, 2008 7:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kaneh bosm destroy's tumors, promotes the growth of brain cells, prevents Alzheimers, and is being used to treat MS, autism, epilepsy, migraine, arthritis, diabetes, depression, obesity, chronic pain, nausea, alcoholism, drug addiction, cystic fibrosis, asthma, emphysema, herpes, skin conditions, Parkinsons, Huntingtons, Tourettes, Crohns disease and more. We have no idea all the benefits of this resource because our FDA refuses to allow testing here in the Land of the Free.
Not only that but kaneh bosm can produce all of our paper, plastics, paints, varnishes, textiles, lubricants, fuel, plywood, structural components, insulation, livestock feed, health foods, cosmetics and more, eco friendly. In 1938 we knew of over 25,000 uses for it, who knows what we can do with modern technology. It grows without fertilizers, herbicides, or pesticides to foul the soil and water, in soil and conditions most crops won't grow, from the Equator to the Arctic circle. It will create millions of Earth friendly jobs, begin a redistribution of wealth, and create social harmony. It exposes the lie!
Kaneh bosm is cannabis, mistranslated from the original Hebrew as calamus by the Greeks in Exodus 30:23, Song of Songs 4:14, Isaiah 43:24, Jeremiah 6:20, and Ezekiel 27:19.
For those with eyes to see, If you know the Truth the Truth will set you free!
Kanaba, kaneh bosm, cannabis, haoma, hemp, taima, etc...........
Garry Minor
Columbus Cannabis Ministry, Hawaii Cannabis Ministry
Columbus Indiana
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» RE: The God of Truth!
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: counterpoint on Jan 11, 2008 8:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing Fails Like Prayer (5/20/06)
Featuring guest Richard Sloan, Ph.D., author of the book, Blind Faith: Critiquing prayer and religion health studies.
Blind Faith
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Posted by: sausage on Jan 11, 2008 8:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I asked god for it to go away.
I took two aspirins and prayed.
All praise to god, my headache's gone!
There ya go. All you need to know about the power of prayer.
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» RE: I had a headache
Posted by: MobileSucks
» RE: I had a headache
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: BlueSun on Jan 11, 2008 8:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The belief that prayer can have anything more than a placebo effect is entirely without proof. Various statistical studies come out all over the map, but are for the most part entirely inconclusive. No single case of prayer leading to divine healing in medical history has ever been scientifically established. There is, in fact, no way to determine whether any given cancer was cured by treatment, spontaneous remission, or godly intercession.
Since there are no other mechanisms for growing back a missing limb, it is the perfect test case for the value of prayer and divine intercession. And, to date, it has failed every time.
So, either prayer to a divine being can result in miraculous (unnatural, by definition) cure, in which case god must hate amputees, or the people who believe in prayer and miracles are merely deluding themselves.
Here's a little test I've devised for the faithful to test the relative merits of prayer and science. The next time you walk into a dark room, drop to your knees and pray for light instead of reaching for the switch on the wall.
You'll spend a lot of time unnecessarily in the dark (pun intended).
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» RE: God is mysteriously selective ... well said.
Posted by: JLPearson
» No medical miracles when the U.S. spends 1 TRILLION on war instead of...
Posted by: snideelf
» RE: God is mysteriously selective...
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: onegranolagirl on Jan 11, 2008 8:23 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Nice.
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Best comment ever on alternet
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Shame on you people
Posted by: dmaciewski
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Posted by: anchoorite on Jan 11, 2008 8:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
min 6:10
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Posted by: PaulK on Jan 11, 2008 8:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The best example of statistical correlation is probably ESP. Certain adepts such as Edgar Cayce could consistently read 100% of a deck of cards. Yes, he gave up playing cards because it was no fun.
People ask, if these guys are so psychic, why don't they just pick winning lottery numbers? Anecdotal evidence suggests that some might be doing this. For example, John Edwardes in Britain needed a healing clinic so he could heal people, so he took out a loan against a future lottery winning. This phenomenon is hard to study because some very wise people don't have quite the respect for moolah that most people have. Nor would devout people want to lead millions of the world's fools into lotteries and casinos.
As for healing, maybe it's just modern U.S. Christianity. U.S. Christians are pretty much not into the stuff that Jesus of Nazareth taught. It's only long distance prayer these days, and at that most Christians only believe in the U.S. medical health care system. By and large U.S. Christians have also got big issues with feeding Lazarus at their gate, and harming hairs on the heads of the little kids that harvested cocoa for their chocolate and who made their screwdrivers found at WalMart, not to mention little Iraqi kids who got cancer breathing depleted uranium smoke particles. Maybe Christianity doesn't work as well if you don't practice parts of it.
Somewhere I have a group photo of about 100 smiling terminal patients at a hospital in China, and I trust that they're all way past their expiration date. Not Christian prayer, but it might be statistically impressive.
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» RE: Statistics versus physical cause
Posted by: factbased
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Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Jan 11, 2008 8:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We do whatever good we can within the little sphere of our ability; we cannot change the whole world, but we can exert some small influence on the part we can physically touch and interact with.
Instead of referring to a distant, and apparently rather dis-interested and impotent divine being when evil confronts us; we ought to do what is in our real physical power to challenge and confront that evil, rather than struggling with the theological conundrum of "the problem of evil." Evil is, always has been and always will be; "shit happens" either because of natural processes or because of human greed and prejudice; no divine being "lets it happen" or "metes out punishment to the wicked."
There is no guarantee of justice in the world, but we can insure that we ourselves behave justly and ethically with whomever we happen to be dealing. Prayer is a waste of time and energy and a distraction from the genuine work of living an ethical, compassionate, peaceful and just life. It might make those who pray feel good about themselves, but that's about it.
I am a free-thinking agnostic and very unashemedly, a humanist; I am not an atheist or an "anti-theist;" I try to maintain respect for others and their beliefs so long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on me; when all's said and done I do not care what you believe so long as you are a person of good will and recognize that we can agree to disagree on many things.
Please do not waste your time praying for me; go out into the world and make it a better place.
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» RE: Interesting. . .
Posted by: dmaciewski
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Posted by: pcushniesr on Jan 11, 2008 8:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the True Believer maintains that his god is omni-everything, then one must conclude that things are the way they are because this god wants them to be that way. After all, would it be possible for an all-powerful agent to be thwarted in the achievement of its desires? I think not. That would render it less than all powerful. Does everything serve God's plan, as so many are wont to say? Then, if this god is all good, and if everything serves its plan (which we must assume to be good) then everything that _is_ must be good. Therefore, there really is no Evil. But can we really talk about an omni-everything entity having wants, desires? These suggest limitations. And if this entity is omniscient and knows THE future, then prayer becomes pointless, given that everything is already set. Can this god change its mind? In effect, probably not, for it would know that it changed its mind even before doing so, which would bring the whole shebang right back to square one. Actually, I think omnieverythingness would be a trap.
But, of course, we are talking about make-believe here, trying to bring the inherently illogical to a logical conclusion, a fool's errand if ever there was one. As was stated in the article, if prayer worked, there could be no science, no valid research. The supernatural is never an answer.
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Posted by: henderson on Jan 11, 2008 9:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now, at age 67, I believe in reincarnation and that we all CHOOSE, before we’re born, our parents, what we will be born into, and the lessons we need to learn in this lifetime. We are ALL “God” in some form. "God" isn't "up there", wearing a long white beard and hurling lightning bolts. Our “God” is our “higher self”, the “still, small voice”, etc. And yes, we all need to communicate with the spirit that is us and in us, and it helps to meditate and allow it to come through unencumbered by the outer, material world. (As in the song by the Police – “we are spirits, in a material world”.)
Along with this is the belief that death, losing a limb, disease, etc. are horrible, terrible things. They aren’t. They’re only lessons to be learned; by us, and the people around us. Death is only shedding this body like a cocoon and going back “home”. Like opening a door and going into the next room. Like closing one book, and going on to the next one.
I also believe that prayer can’t hurt. And yes, that it can help. But I believe that one of the first laws of this universe is that you can’t choose FOR anyone else. They have their own agenda, between them and their creator, no matter how old they are. So perhaps if they “choose” not to get well, or to lose a limb or to be born with cancer, it’s for their “life lessons”, and it won’t turn out the way WE want it to be.
My inspiration for many things is Sedona, Journal of Emergence – “channeled” voices teaching nothing but love and choice.
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» Had you actually read. . .
Posted by: Sue Deaunym
» RE: mick3
Posted by: dmaciewski
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Posted by: scottyrocks on Jan 11, 2008 9:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My children go to a baptist school and they completely understand that their peers that pray for an extraterrestrial invisible imaginary friend are delusional.
I think evolution will eventually weed out people that pray.
Scott
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» RE: Prayer is for the ignorant
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: Prayer is for the ignorant
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: Rod on Jan 11, 2008 9:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Lies
2. Dammed Lies
3. Statistics
Keep this in mind when reading any scientific study on outcomes. And follow the money.
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Posted by: willymack on Jan 11, 2008 10:07 AM
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Posted by: rewassenich on Jan 11, 2008 10:39 AM
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Why praying? For What?
People mostly pray to ask for something, seldom to thank. Why ask for something or thank for something. If there is a God, does he/she owe us anything?
The best advise still is: God helps those who help themselves.
Suggestion: On god and religion read Immanuel Kant, also on elightenment - we really need to be enlightened! About ourselves, freedom, personal and otherwise.
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Posted by: vasumurti on Jan 11, 2008 10:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"O give thanks unto the Lord; call upon His name; make known His deeds among the people. Sing unto Him, sing psalms unto Him: talk ye of all His wondrous works. Glory ye in His holy name." (Psalms 105:1-4) "...Praise Him with the timbrel and the dance; praise Him upon the loud cymbals." (Psalms 150:4-5)
Israel Baal Shem Tov (1699-1761), the great Jewish mystic, founded Hasidism, a popular pietist movement within Judaism, in which members dance and chant in glorification of God. The Hasidism were especially influenced by verses in Psalms calling for the joyful worship of the Lord through song. (Psalms 100:1,2, 104:33)
According to The Jewish Almanac: "In the Jewish tradition the name actually partakes of the essence of God. Thus, knowledge of the name is a vehicle to God, a conveyor of divine energy, an interface between the Infinite and the finite...It is curious that a tradition that places such a strong emphasis on the one God possesses such a large number of names for the divine. Each name, however, actually represents a different quality or aspect of God."
When teaching his disciples how to pray, Jesus glorified God’s holy name: "Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name." (Matthew 6:9) Jesus approved of his disciples’ singing joyfully in praise of God. (Luke 19:36-40) Of his own name, Jesus said: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there with them." (Matthew 18:20)
Paul told the gentiles to speak to one another in psalms and hymns, to sing heartily and make music to the Lord. (Ephesians 5:19) He taught them to instruct and admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. (Colossians 3:16) "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)
According to Eusebius, there was "one common consent in chanting forth the praises of God," in the early Christian churches. In addition to praising the Lord’s name and glories through music, song, and dance, there has also emerged the practice of meditating upon God by chanting upon beads of prayer. St. John Chrysostom recommended the "prayerful invocation of the name of God," which he said should be "uninterrupted."
The repetition of the Jesus prayer ("Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me") became a regular practice among members of the Eastern Church. In The Way of a Pilgrim, a Russian monk writes: "The continuous interior prayer of Jesus is a constant, uninterrupted calling upon the divine name of Jesus with the lips, in the spirit, in the heart..."
In Islam, the names of God are held sacred and meditated upon. According to tradition, there are 99 names of Allah, found inscribed upon monuments such as the Taj Mahal and on the walls of mosques. These names are chanted on an Islamic rosary, which consists of three sets of 33 beads.
The Sikhs call God "Nama," or "the Name." Guru Nanak, the founder of the Sikh religion, prayed, "In the ambrosial hours of the morn I meditate on the grace of the true Name," and says that he was instructed by God in a vision to "Go and repeat My Name, and cause others to do likewise."
Rosaries are used in Buddhism. Members of Japan’s largest Buddhist order, the Pure Land sect, practice repetition of the name of the compassionate Buddha ("namu amida butsu"). Founder, Shinran Shonin says, "The virtue of the Holy Name, the gift of him that is enlightened, is spread throughout the world." Through the name of Buddha a worshipper is liberated from repeated birth and death and joins the Buddha in the "Pure Land."
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» RE: prayer is not a crime
Posted by: factbased
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Jan 11, 2008 10:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also it takes you outside of yourself and thus reduces stress all of this is good for the individual..
We are hard wired to have some sense of the spiritual and or mystical or even cosmological..
For some of us the lucky ones all this rolls into one sense of the splendor and vastness and yet connection of everything and transcends and interweaves with any given religion..
The cells in our brains correspond with the billions of stars in the heavens..we are stardust and energy made material...it's all so cool..vast..mystical..
I pity anyone here who has no sense of the mystical or cosmological or epistemological in their life and being..
"Just remember we are very small and life goes on within and without you.."
George Harrison..
He's here with me right now..
See epistemology..
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Posted by: sweet_byrd on Jan 11, 2008 11:18 AM
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Posted by: grumble-bum on Jan 11, 2008 11:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead, I wish to address the study on alcoholics & prayer cited in the article. The study was meant to "prove" that prayer had an effect on people who were aware of those prayers. Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to think of a worse group to test such a non-objective theory on.
Did the researchers intend to find a negative effect from prayer in this study? Because, by nature of the disease in question, & the test subjects, they were virtually guaranteed to find just that.
Anyone who has struggled with alcoholism (like me) can tell you that, after a certain point, a major psychological factor in continued addiction is GUILT. Having reached a given level of self-disgust & degradation, the alcoholic sees (at least partially) the negative impact of their behavior & becomes consumed with guilty feelings. This often results in attempts to stop or control their drinking, which usually fail. With each failure, the feelings of guilt intensify, eventually becoming a primary engine for continued drinking.
Either the researchers had no understanding of the well-known dynamics of alcoholism, or they chose that group as the subject of their test because they wanted to skew the study to find evidence of a "negative" prayer effect. Of course many of the subjects who knew they were being prayed for were drinking more heavily 6 months later. Not only had they failed themselves, but they'd failed their loved ones (via an official medical study, no less), & ultimately failed/been "condemned" by God! Gee, I think I'd still be drinking (if not dead) under such circumstances, myself.
By way of analogy, if this test had been done on cancer patients, the results would be similar if the researchers had injected those patients with extra cancer cells & then recorded the resulting increase in deaths as "proof" of the harmful effects of prayer.
Really, not only a markedly suspect study (even in comparison to some of the goofier ones listed), but morally highly questionable, given that alcoholism is a disease unique in it's mysterious component of "free will" (which is then influenced by guilt). I must wonder how many people died at least partly as a result of this cynical meddling?
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» RE: The Problem With the Alcoholism Study...
Posted by: GPFrank
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Posted by: bitsfick on Jan 11, 2008 12:45 PM
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Posted by: rhinojos on Jan 11, 2008 5:23 PM
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Posted by: carbon-based on Jan 13, 2008 5:04 AM
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Posted by: Flavious on Jan 11, 2008 11:49 AM
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» RE: praying is begging
Posted by: Richard House
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Posted by: warriornation on Jan 11, 2008 12:18 PM
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» RE: just a comment on cannabis
Posted by: MobileSucks
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Posted by: Bizby on Jan 11, 2008 12:51 PM
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A
If there is a counter argument to the argument in the video, I'd like to hear it.
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Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Jan 11, 2008 1:02 PM
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some people do worse because they thought they weren't bad off enough to warrent prayer and feel that because they are apparently in need of prayer interpret their situation as worse...others do better with prayer because they feel (at least) that others care about them...
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Posted by: Ellie1 on Jan 11, 2008 1:13 PM
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Posted by: kenn on Jan 11, 2008 1:58 PM
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Millions of others, including children would consider THAT a miracle!
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» conflicts with someone else's "prayers"
Posted by: zooeyhall
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Posted by: MobileSucks on Jan 11, 2008 2:30 PM
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Posted by: davesilvan on Jan 11, 2008 3:00 PM
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(for example, I lost 80% of my hearing from ototoxic drugs given to me when I was in the hospital in '02 over six months. When I moved home we had to get hooked up with comcast internet service because I could no longer use a phone; of course I researched ototoxic drugs, that's how I'd even learned the term 'ototoxic,' and saw somewhere that I may slowly regain my hearing over time [I also refused to take any more medications when I learned that pills you take could very well reduce/remove ones hearing] and I would swear that I thought my hearing was getting better, but when I went to an audiologist and got my hearing tested again, it was the same as it was a year before, and the audiologist said she'd never heard of anyone who regained their hearing.)
After all, how many people have seen jebus' image on toast, in water drainage under overpasses, etc. But there is no god, so get over it. Going back in homo sapien history, possibly the very first homo sapien perhaps hid in his cave while lightning flashed and thunder boomed, perhaps thinking he was being punished for the animal he just killed and ate; perhaps he thought he was being punished for forcing sex on a female counterpart. So he blamed it on a higher being, explaining what couldn't be explained. And thus, religion was born.
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Posted by: MobileSucks on Jan 11, 2008 3:03 PM
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What some of them might not realize is that those special feelings they get when they are standing there, embracing one another so gently, praying so intently and passionately in that prayer circle together -is that it ain't the "Holy Spirit" they feel inside them.
Heh, one day they'll become confused by these feelings. Maybe they will be led astray by Satan and "worldly temptations", perhaps finding themselves taking "wide stances" at urinals in men's restrooms, like good Christians before them such as Senator Larry Craig. But then, thank God, they will see the error of their ways, perhaps with the help of their church and family and friends. Then they will immediately go to a Christian center that will "cure" them of their wickedness, where they will enjoy taking part in more prayer circles, and once again will feel the Holy Spirit and God's grace in their lives.
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» RE: prayer circles
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: prayer circles
Posted by: GPFrank
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Posted by: moxey on Jan 11, 2008 4:36 PM
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Posted by: GPFrank on Jan 11, 2008 5:08 PM
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I was told that as soon as I breathed on my own, they could get the chest tube out, their goal was in 24 hours. I had to think to take every breath I took. Fortunately, because I stayed awake remembering to breathe the tube came out in 18 hours. It is my feeling that any sort of prayer that verbalized any object would have been a distraction from that one main object, of breathing, surviving this ordeal I may have been recalling Biblical sayings but they ran through my head, not by intention.
Another situation in which I think prayer is a distraction: even for a minute, or even for a minute of silence is the classroom. Those who are in the classroom; the teacher and the students have one job and duty and that is to think about what is on the agenda to try to learn, but most of all to think. But prayer is about not thinking, not about one's responsibility, but about shifting responsibility to another agent. It is a form of passing the buck put in somewhat arcane terms. Because in the idea of "to whom" it is being addressed there is nothing more arcane than that in any cognitive sense. And the arcaneness in itself is part of the distraction because that is how it has been taught in the religion.
It is my feeling that when there are "invocations" and the like in parochial and
"denominational" schools, the best students in performance manage to "pass over" the ritual as
a duty to the institution rather than try to grasp meaning of the ritual, when teaching and lecture are to follow. That at least has been my observation of people under such circumstances.
Again, in regard to visiting a patient, I feel if visiting somebody desperately or violently ill the only thing that may help is concentrating on the patient, which his or her appearance appropriately calls for.
Turning down or turning around with some kind of mumbling if it were me in the bed, I would say, "Get out of here!"
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jan 11, 2008 6:14 PM
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Posted by: cfuz7 on Jan 11, 2008 7:50 PM
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Never understood it, wish on a star at times, feel the surge of the cosmos and give a "thanks very much cosmos" in my head. Calling up a friend or family member and chatting them up, or just being there doing "practical majik" like cleaning up a bit, making a meal, putting some good tunes, or a cool flick on the entertainment system, providing a good read or just hanging out (or not, many need solitude in healing)works as well as anything a layman can do. I am amazed at humans in the health care field, I couldn't stick needles in people or deal with any of it. I'm proud of them and I have never prayed except maybe in an almost car accident, in extreme physical pain (like child birth) and that "prayer" was strewn with "blasphemy" (grin).
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Posted by: GPFrank on Jan 11, 2008 8:44 PM
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The dynamics of Alcoholics Anonymous: The alcoholic is in the grip of a disease that has a grip on his/her soul (To put in the vernacular)
I speak of the soul as mentioned in the Talmud:
"The breathing, coursing of the blood and emotions".
But there is no known cure for alcoholism; it is
in the class of nervous system illness as addictions. But AA helps the person keep sober.
The person has to acknowledge that the disease has a grip on her/him as a "higher power". So that higher power has to be replaced by a power higher than that, through the series of twelve steps thereby keeping on going to meetings. With addiction there is a paradox. The addict thinks he or she is concentrating staying sober but actually is thinking about the drink. So that thinking about the higher power takes the mind off the drink (or the drug or nicotine)
(I am not alcoholic but I had alcoholism in the family so spent two years in "Alanon" because
that person's alcoholism also is a "higher power") When the addict stays sober the addict is said to be in a state of recovery or "recovering".
That is the reality of chronic illness: and the
question, "How do we put up with it" Especially when taking care of someone with ailments such as dementia: the caretaker is also sick and cries out for help. Where to?
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Posted by: cold2touch on Jan 11, 2008 9:15 PM
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I am sure joint Baptist-NIH funds are awaiting the well crafted grant proposals to study the matter.
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Posted by: toughyt on Jan 11, 2008 9:17 PM
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I can assure you, there was no positive effect and I felt more depressed in the hospital than during my first surgery, when I was not prayed for. In my opinion, as a patient, prayer (in whatever form) can be very effective because it will impart on the patient a sense of being cared about by somebody. And for the person praying, they will gain sympathy for the patient by spending time thinking about them. The mind-body connection of being cared about and healing seems self-evident, although that may be presumptuous on my part.
However, this is contradicted by the idea of long-distance prayer. I feel that the author of this article is suggesting that the researchers consider prayer an actual wish list to god. This should be clarified. Instead, if prayer is defined as a meditation on the nature of being that can instill a profound sense of calm, it would make sense that it could be beneficial for the patient. To follow this reasoning through to the end, if that sense of well-being can be imparted by the 'prayer' onto the patient by interacting with them then the stresses on the body are lessened, despite the physical trauma of the surgery.
The big business of medical care and general indifference to the emotional needs of patients cannot be overcome by equally absent emotional care such as long-distance prayer. The idea of pray as an agent of healing does not seem as far fetched when friends or family are intimately involved in the process with the patient in need.
toughyt-- 35 F
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Posted by: Sue Deaunym on Jan 12, 2008 2:44 AM
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"I also believe that prayer can’t hurt."
But, stay blissful.
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Posted by: Sue Deaunym on Jan 12, 2008 3:35 AM
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Hope can diminish motivation, compel irresponsibility, increase inertia, and lead to languor. (Which is to say, hope can impair healing in some circumstances with some people.)
Prayer can sensitize or desensitize the prayor. It can increase alertness, or it can numb the senses.
I conclude: Prayer can increase hope, which can sometimes enhance healing, but sometimes can hinder it.
I'll never pray for healing. I may use meditation, intellectualization, support and comfort from loved ones, even some kaneh bosm to deal with suffering, but never prayer. If my caregivers need prayer to better attend to my needs, they are welcome to pray all they want. If their prayer makes them more passive or numb to my suffering, I'll thank them to stop it.
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Posted by: Caesar77 on Jan 12, 2008 2:14 PM
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Jan 12, 2008 2:18 PM
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I respect tolerant live and let live religious persons, but i spit on the rest of you, zealots.
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Jan 12, 2008 2:22 PM
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Its ok if you need to believe in God and Santa, but dont try convince to us.
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Jan 12, 2008 2:35 PM
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WE ARE WINNING AND WE WILL BURY YOUR GOD(S), DEITIES AND OTHER SUPERNATURAL ENTITIES so that humanity can leave in peace without priests nor mollah nor sacrifices nor anything.
And while I'm at it, Jesus who I'm certain was a good man, would be ashamed to see what you've done of his faith and word. And this applies to all the religions; Shame on you. But your world is coming to an end, the darkness of religion, faith and intolerance is making way for the light of Science, comprehension and tolerance.
But no we cant tolerate the intolerants so yeah it doesnt apply to the zealots.
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Posted by: setterwoman on Jan 13, 2008 11:48 PM
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Better to do something to stop the war.
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Posted by: yantacaw on Jan 14, 2008 11:50 PM
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Posted by: eric555 on Jan 15, 2008 3:44 PM
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More often then not prayer is the last thing we do. After we have been to all the doctors and specialist we can find, After we have exhusted man's ability to help us, then we turn to God.
And he should listen to us? Ha!
We also tend to look at an unwanted result as unanswered prayer. There was an answer, just not the one we were looking for. Many of us pray as if God is supposed to bend to our will. It is the other way around people.
"Thy will, not mine be done."
When my Father was sick three years ago and needed a heart transplant I imagine a lot of people were praying for him. I know I was. I couldn't bring myself to pray that he get the transplant. Let's face it that means someone else had to die.
Instead I prayed that he would be as comfortable as the doctors could make him and that if it was not in Gods plan for my Father to get the transplant, then I asked that he not be forced to hang on an longer then necessary, just let it be done. In the end I was willing to accept Gods will, which is really all we can do.
The Old Man got the transplant and he is still here with us today. The extra time with him is priceless.
Is it because of prayer, I would say no. I certainly do not think my prayer is better then that of anyone else. I say it is because that is what God had in mind all along. Prayer is not a wish list or a Dear Santa letter. It is a private communication between you and your God. It is meant to deepen your relationship. Is is as much about listening as it is about talking.
Your creator already knows what you need and will provide it. Instead of coming to him with a shopping list we should instead be using it the time to learn what he would have from us.
Matthew 6:25 ¶Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
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Posted by: Bearzerker on Jan 16, 2008 3:06 AM
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Just think of it as a placebo effect if the atheists wont let go of the the "God/Gods delusional aspect...
personally I find great comfort in believing in something greater than mankind...
we are after all, what we think we are...
we aspire to live, to dream...
to become more...
all for the future...
Is the stairway to heaven actually a strand of DNA?... or maybe its your children's, children's children, a hundred times over?
its amazing... apposable thumbs and a mind to ponder the reasons why!
amazing
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Jan 18, 2008 9:01 PM
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While you are at it, why don't you ask Him why He made you so sick in the first place? Or why you have a fatal disease, but the loser next door is all healthy and stuff.
As the article states SCIENCE has put to rest once and for all the silliness of prayer.
By the way, why do we not hear about all the praying the Shrub used to do anymore? Did he stop? Did God stop answering? Did God give bad advice? Or is He playing a mean joke (on all of us)? I believe any thinking person knows the answer to that.
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