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Town Hall Lunacy Includes Outraged Calls to 'Keep Government Out of Medicare,' When Medicare Is Government

Some can't reconcile what they believe about the propaganda that is fed to them with their own positive experiences with public programs like Medicare.
August 27, 2009  |  
 
 
 
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As the health care discussion has descended from contentious to surreal, there is perhaps one message that encapsulates better than any other the incoherence of those expressions of rage seen at town hall meetings across the country: "Keep government out of my Medicare!"

The rallying cry has been heard again and again as lawmakers have returned home to discuss health reform during the summer recess.

In South Carolina, an enraged constituent told Republican Rep. Bob Inglis to "keep your government hands off my Medicare!"; a woman reportedly sent a letter to the White House stating in no uncertain terms, "I don't want government-run health care, I don't want socialized medicine and don't touch my Medicare." Slate's Timothy Noah put out an open invitation for readers to submit more examples of this kind of confusion.

The incoherence isn't limited to the low-information rubes turning out at town halls either. Supply-side, "voodoo economist" Arthur Laffer cautioned during a recent interview on CNN, "If you like the post office and the Department of Motor Vehicles, and you think they're run well, just wait till you see Medicare, Medicaid and health care done by the government." And in a wildly convoluted interview on Fox News this week, RNC Chairman Michael Steele argued simultaneously that Medicare is an inefficient, deeply flawed program that must be protected at all costs.

The outrage is a perfect picture of right-populism, argues Chip Berlet, an expert on right-wing movements. "The town meeting confrontations over health care are an example of right-wing populist protests that periodically sweep across the United States," he says. "The anger, fear and resentment are often mobilized by cynical political elites as part of an orchestrated response."

Many observing these debates from abroad have probably concluded that we, as a nation, have finally gone completely mad. And it's hard to argue otherwise.

How sane could be a polity that sits by with relative complacence when its leaders launch devastating and groundless invasions of foreign lands but approach a full-on rebellion when those leaders make some modest moves to deliver decent health care at a price people can afford?

And how could these people be so divorced from the dynamics of their own health care that they don't appear to understand that the Medicare they value so highly is very much a government-run health care program?

The most frequent answer from liberals is that these people are simply uneducated buffoons who listen to too much Rush Limbaugh, an argument that's not without merit.

But historian Rick Perlstein thinks that the statement reflects, at least in part, zero-sum thinking among one of the few groups of Americans whose health care is guaranteed by the government.

"It's almost like: 'I got mine and screw you.' People think that any expansion of the [public] health care pie means that their slice will get smaller," he told me.

Perhaps a more straightforward explanation can be found in the psychological literature.

In their 1950 classic, The Authoritarian Personality, UCLA psychologists Theodor Adorno, Else Frenkel-Brunswik, Daniel Levinson and Nevitt Sanford identified a cluster of traits that they argued were inherent in the conservative worldview, including a fierce protectiveness of the status quo, a tendency to lash out at opponents, an embrace of stereotypes and cynicism.

All are traits that have been on display in abundance as conservatives lash out at lawmakers for what they believe, erroneously, to be in the health care bill.

More recently, Bob Altemeyer, a professor of psychology at the University of Manitoba, added to the literature with his model of "right-wing authoritarianism." Drawing on years of empirical research, Altemeyer found that the right-wing authoritarian personality is "almost totally uninfluenced by reasoning and evidence."

They are likely to believe those they perceive as authorities on an issue without question, even when, as in the health reform debate, those leaders come out with fantastic lies about what the measure would look like, complete with ashen bureaucrats deciding how much health care you deserve based on your lifestyle and elderly people being forced to argue their worth in front of Sarah Palin's now-infamous "death panels."

But one aspect of the right-wing authoritarian personality is especially relevant to the question of how someone might demand that government's hands be kept off of Medicare.


Joshua Holland is an editor and senior writer at AlterNet.
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The Answer is Simple ... "Medicare for All "...
Posted by: mmckinl on Aug 27, 2009 12:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Medicare for All" cuts right through the cognitive dissonance ... but you won't hear the term "Medicare for All" from politicians (except the 80 or so progressive House Members signed up for Hr676 ) because they are married to their ongoing contributions from Health Care Inc.

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What is the differance between Medicare and Medicaid
Posted by: Lara1967 on Aug 27, 2009 1:30 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a big difference...Medicare is available to all U.S. citizens 65 years of age or older and it also covers people with certain disabilities.It is available regardless of income.

The four-part program includes:

Part A: Hospitalization coverage.
Part B: Medical insurance.
Part C: Privately purchased supplemental insurance that provides additional services and through which all Medicare services offered by Part A and Part B can be accessed.
Part D: Prescription drug coverage.

Parts A and B are paid for by payroll taxes and deductions from Social Security income.
Parts C and D are paid out-of-pocket by program participants.

The Medicare and Medicaid programs work together to provide medical coverage to elderly and poor people. Medicare is the primary medical coverage provider for many persons aged 65 and older and for those with a disability. Eligibility has nothing to do with income level. Meanwhile, Medicaid eligibility is designed for people with limited income, and it is often a program of last resort for those without access to other resources.

Since this is the case, how many people who believes Illegals should get this service when it stickly says in you have to be US Citizen...

Alot of obama supporters doesnt understand the differance and those who wants it change is so the illegals can get the services while Americans Citizens are left out in the cold.

People want coverage for all ? well All doesnt include illegals..there are Americans between the ages of 40 to 60 who doesnt have any kind of FREE health care nor could they afford private health care as well.. why not focus on the people who actually doesnt have it ...But Obama is going to let you understand this, since they want to give Illegals everything free while Americans get nothing...

I voted for Obama in 2009 and his Change is a lie.

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» Huh? Posted by: chaoslegs
» Anyone else notice... Posted by: dbarber
» RE: Anyone else notice... Posted by: scearfo
» RE: Anyone else notice... Posted by: badkitty
» RE: Anyone else notice... Posted by: Seranvali
» RE: Anyone else notice... Posted by: Seranvali
» Zombie Lies Posted by: Joshua Holland
» I voted for him in 2008 myself Posted by: hurricane hugo

Comments are closed-

off topic!
Posted by: foreverhope on Aug 27, 2009 2:57 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wish someone would bring me a cigeratte!

I'm dyin' here!

Joshua! see my note about repug thugs 'worried' about another terrorist attack!

THEY ARE THE TERRORISTS JOSHUA!

FOR REAL!

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» RE: off topic! Posted by: Benn_Miller

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Same Behavior
Posted by: Jo1028 on Aug 27, 2009 3:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another issue that evokes similar behavior in protesters is sex education, with people believing and being frightened by the lies proclaimed by opponents, ie., it causes kids to have sex, putting condoms on bananas, using condoms is ineffective, etc. I found that that the best way to deal with these people, when they're shouting at you, is to make eye contact, calmly ask if you can ask them a question, and then ask something that will break their train of thought - like 'do you know your child's teacher? Do you think she would put a condom on a banana?

You have to bring them back to reality in a casual and friendly way - ie., do you have Medicare? Do you like your doctor? Did you know Medicare is a government program?

It's like they've been brainwashed; they're reading from a script - and to get through, you must dislodge the script - Most often, other people in the group will start agreeing with you and the protester begins to feel that pressure. It may not change their minds immediately, but it does make them start to think about the legitimacy of what they are claiming.

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» RE: Same Behavior Posted by: Lilly
» So true. Posted by: Parcival01
» RE: So true. Posted by: Uncle John
» RE: Same Behavior Posted by: madmac10

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TIME FOR A NATIONAL LONG-TERM STRIKE - SHUT 'EM DOWN!!
Posted by: mattnrva on Aug 27, 2009 3:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just read Larry Flynt's essay on a National Strike Day and I have to say I agree all the way!! For years I have been telling people I know locally in my city (Richmond VA) about the need for a general strike in the U.S. Almost all of them kind of yawned and said "I feel what you're saying" then went right back into their little world and fell back asleep...

We have to GALVANIZE the EVERYDAY PEOPLE in this country -- EVERYONE!! It will take many charismatic local leaders -- all over our country -- to excite people locally and to start spreading excitement outward -- before you know it, people will be on board.

And -- not just a 1-day strike. A CRIPPLING STRIKE that COMPLETELY SHUTS DOWN THE U.S. ECONOMY until our demands are MET 100%. That means no work -- no shopping -- NO entertainment -- not even groceries!! We need to do what the people in France do -- they take to the streets in a HEARTBEAT -- and they STRIKE whenever the government won't listen to them -- and they DO shut down the country almost COMPLETELY when they do -- in France the government is AFRAID OF THE PEOPLE -- in America the sheeple are afraid of the government...

It's time to GROW A PAIR people -- get off your asses and JOIN THE STRIKE...We should shut down the economy as much as possible until we FORCE THEM to pass single payer health coverage -- and term limits -- and public campaign financing -- and other things --

WHERE ARE YOUR BALLS SHEEPLE?!!? STOP ACTING LIKE MIND-CONTROLLED ZOMBIES and TAKE ACTION -- the only action they understand is MONEY -- so let's refuse to be their slaves for a few days and see what these MF's think of THAT!!!

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» As likely to happen... Posted by: Parcival01
» Interesting you should say so Posted by: chrysalis124812
» NATIONAL LONG-TERM STRIKE Posted by: leighsure

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How Do These Crazies Poll on Public Education?
Posted by: drricklippin on Aug 27, 2009 4:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like to compare US committment to providing basic public education FOR ALL to the government providing basic health care FOR ALL.

How do these conservatives poll on their desire to maintain public education?

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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» um...hold on there... Posted by: undrgrndgirl

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Facinating Neuro-Psychological Hypothesis
Posted by: drricklippin on Aug 27, 2009 4:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Altemeyer found in the personality[the authoritarian] a tendency to avoid cognitive dissonance -- the discomfort caused by holding two contradictory ideas -- at all costs and to lash out when confronted with it

JUST FACINATING - THANKS!

These neuro-traits are established early in life and regrettably are probably immutable physiologically. Hence we must emphasize not poisoning the minds of our children.

Of course they are correlated to the ultimate authority figure of a vengeful all knowing God-hence the correlation of conservatism to religiosity (especially strict fundamentalism) where also there is no room for reason to exist or prevail.

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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I want to shine the spotlight on this line:
Posted by: HeroesAll on Aug 27, 2009 4:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How sane could be a polity that sits by with relative complacence when its leaders launch devastating and groundless invasions of foreign lands but approach a full-on rebellion when those leaders make some modest moves to deliver decent health care at a price people can afford?

Ya got me, Joshua: how sane could they be? Honestly, us here in the non-US world have some fairly unflattering views of 'Murrikans, and it's only thanks to the likes of Alternet that we're able to see the whole country isn't a seething mass of violent, ignorant, bigots.

On a more serious note, I'd say that both sides of that question are rooted, to at least some extent, in American exceptionalism: America is best at everything, so any change represents a degradation (and how shame-making to have to do something after the Swedes had done it first!), and similarly, America has the right to bomb the bejeesus out of furr'n countries whenever they choose, if only because it makes Americans feel big and tough.

The whole hysteria over health care is obviously ginned up by vested interests, because it's so ludicrous. Obama could have offered completely free health care for everyone with no strings, funded by his own private squillions obtained from his birth certificate business or auctioning off his foreskin or whatever the latest right wing wail is, and they'd still have a tantrum. He could offer them ponies and a free gold bar with every doctor's visit, and they'd still scream about Hitler and communists and fascists (sometimes all at once).

That's the basic truth: you can't convince these people that you're not some super-evil cabal who want to eat their children and steal their property. Doesn't matter how much you have facts, logic, or ethics on your side, they've got their world view and they ain't changing it.

I imagine a similar situation happened when someone first suggested that maybe the earth wasn't flat. Nice to know we've come such a long way.

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Media Distortion
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Aug 27, 2009 4:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We've grown so accustomed to media reports that totally misrepresent events. There were the Swift-boaters who presented John Kerry as a coward who did not deserve the metals he won in battle and there was the characterization of Al Gore as a serial lier. There are many more examples and we've grown to think that the distortions always defame the left and forgive the sins of the right and it does seem as though there is a serious imbalance in this regard.

But in this instance, it seems to me that the shoe may be on the other foot. Maybe that is only fair, but let's not be fooled by it. There may well be some truth in the rather absurd thought that these retired protesters don't realize that their Medicare is a government program, but there is another explanation for this seemingly ridiculous shout from the crowd.

Inarticulate as they may be, at least some of these Medicare beneficiaries are probably expressing a legitimate concern about the consequences of healthcare reform on the Medicare program that they rely on. Understandibly, they don't want Medicare to be changed and they don't want it to be underfunded. However, there have been statements by the Obama administration that healthcare reform will be funded out of savings from Medicare. It's not hard to see how someone who already mistrusts Obama might misconstrue such a statement.

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Curb Cuts
Posted by: Lilly on Aug 27, 2009 4:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you get around on two feet, you probably never notice curb cuts; if you get around on wheels, you notice them a lot. I don't think I ever even saw a curb cut until my husband started using a scooter. On wheels, you quickly learn that without curb cuts you would not be able to travel a single block from home without hailing a taxi: no grocery store, no doctor's appointments, no going out to lunch, no picking up a prescription, no wandering up to the park on a nice afternoon to feed peanuts to the squirrels.

Curb cuts were mandated by the Americans With Disabilities Act, part of the legacy of Senator Ted Kennedy. Consider this a personal thank-you.

And I wonder whether today the Republican view of curb cut legislation would be 1) "Mandating curb cuts means takeover by an intrusive Socialist government"; 2) "Mandate curb cuts and we lose our freedom!"; 3) "Let every free American make his own individual curb cuts".

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Can't blame people for their ignorance
Posted by: peacelf on Aug 27, 2009 4:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Progressives need to parlay their attacks on the american educational system that schools young people to doublethink, as Orwell so eloquently put it. Indeed, progressive minded people too often overlook the power of public education in indoctrinating americans into the corporate system of thinking: a system that prepares future workers, not active, critical citizens in a democratic society.

Every institution in america works for the benefit of corporations, or more euphemistically, the "economy." The "what-do-you-want-to-be" when you grow up mantra is deeply ingrained in public schooling. Good workers make good foot soldiers for corporate interests. This is the cognitive dissonance we witness at town hall meetings.

More specifically, educational theorists call it the "hidden curriculum of work": i.e. behaviors, attitudes, values, etc. covertly taught in school that is not part of the overt lessons.

For example, the classroom runs more like a dictatorship than a democracy; this more closely resembles a corporation. Teachers are the "supervisors." They tell students what to think, which questions are important and which are unimportant.

Critical thinking is frowned upon, unless it is tied to lessons in the ordained curriculum. "Why are we learning this?" questions are met with punishment or embarrassment..."because it's in the book!"

The structure of the school plays an important role as well. Dividing knowledge into "subjects" has pernicious affects on cognition, and in many cases, perpetuates dissonance because knowledge is compartmentalized. What one learns in science cannot be easily transfer to history class. Indeed, many contradictions can exist between the two (think evolution and religion).

Moreover, public education glorifies the accomplishments of mostly wealthy white males and marginalizes women and people of color. The Humanities are reduced to memorizing dates and facts in history, and punctuation and sentence structure in English. Empathy and sympathy are spelling words.

No child left behind means no child who isn't indoctrinated into the economic education system.

So, what we're witnessing at these TH meetings are products of public education (by public I mean most private schools as well). They learned too well what they were told to do, so they can't be blamed.

So, if you want to see real change in america, fight to make public education more democratic. Teach your children to be critical thinkers, and active citizens.

Peace

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FOX, Ads, and Government
Posted by: Lilly on Aug 27, 2009 5:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Note that when watching FOX during daytime hours the anti-Obama anti-health care programming is often interrupted by two particular commercials. One is for getting your scooter free from the government ("My scooter didn't cost me one red cent!") and the other tells how to get your diabetes supplies ditto ("Liberty delivers them right to my door"). Both messages are delivered by elderly actors; in both cases, what's necessary is paid for by Medicare, a program of (sob) the federal government. Then the commercials end and it's back to bashing Obama and intrusive government.

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» RE: FOX, Ads, and Government Posted by: Bob Horn

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FEAR the great motivator
Posted by: timenotonmyside on Aug 27, 2009 5:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans are stupid, stupid, stupid and FEARFUL.
Americans have been programmed for the last 8 years to accept FEAR into their lives.
Just look at how Bush used the terror levels after 9-11.
Let's face it, the majority of Americans get their information from MSM sound bites, and look no further.

I read an article written by a sociologist who says that this irrational exceptance of outright lies is a symptom. He says these people feel threatened when they see a ''black man'' standing before them as the president of the united states.

I've said all along that this country hasn't come far enough with regards to race to trust in a black president. This makes me sad, not fearful, that so many so-called ''americans'' are still living in 1950.

I voted for Barack Obama and would do so again in a heart beat.

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AMEN Brother!
Posted by: wtfo on Aug 27, 2009 5:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have to agree wholeheartedly with this article. I have lost count of the number of "friends", relatives, and acquaintances who all have this same, bizarre, rant. "Keep government out of my healthcare decisions" - but at the same time "Don't touch my medicare/medicaid/VA Healthcare - or else..."

At first I thought that they were just ignorant but now I think that a majority of them are indeed just saying "I got mine - screw you". In fact I have had conversations with a certain "friend" in which I finally got him to say that "We should not touch Medicare until it is financially solvent". When I pointed out that it was easy for him to make this demand since he already had Medicare and I was not yet old enough to get it, he said nothing in return. He was also strangely quiet when I simply stated "All I want is the same healthcare that you and my mother have - especially since I am paying for it all".

When I pointed out to this same friend that his children and grandchildren were "on their own" on healthcare while his was guaranteed by the government and asked what he would do if one of THEM had a serious medical problem and no insurance - he said "I would pay for the healthcare". Then when I pointed out that it might cost more money than even HE had and asked what he would do if they were faced with the decision to either seek "government assistance" or watch his loved ones die, he said "then they should die"!!!

Sometimes its fun to twist these stupid people into logically-induced pretzels...

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» RE: AMEN Brother! Posted by: Uncle John
» RE: Wow and Wow Posted by: desidid

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Health Care Reform - Nothing Much Is Changing
Posted by: mtcloud on Aug 27, 2009 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Undue Influence
The House Bill Skews End-of-Life Counsel

By Charles Lane
Saturday, August 8, 2009 Washington Post

Click Here For Full Text

About a third of Americans have living wills or advance-care directives expressing their wishes for end-of-life treatment. When seniors who don't have them arrive in a hospital terminally ill and incapacitated, families and medical workers wrestle with uncertainty -- while life-prolonging machinery runs, often at Medicare's expense. This has consequences for families and for the federal budget.

Enter Section 1233 of the health-care bill drafted in the Democratic-led House, which would pay doctors to give Medicare patients end-of-life counseling every five years -- or sooner if the patient gets a terminal diagnosis.

______________________________________

Globalist Snob Rothkopf Says Town Hall Demonstrators Are Morons

Kurt Nimmo Infowars August 13, 2009

Click Here For Full text
David Rothkopf, managing director of Kissinger and Associates and CFR member, has published an op-ed in the globalist propaganda periodical Foreign Policy.
featured stories Globalist Snob Rothkopf Says Town Hall Demonstrators Are Morons
featured stories Globalist Snob Rothkopf Says Town Hall Demonstrators Are Morons

David Rothkopf thinks you’re an idiot for protesting against Obamacare.


“America has been suffering an outbreak of especially virulent and acute stupidity recently,” writes Rothkopf. “It has been particularly manifest at town hall meetings devoted to ‘discussions’ of health care reform in which incensed Republicans scream at the top of their lungs about provisions that are not actually in any of the legislation under consideration — for example the so-called ‘death panels’ that would have bureaucrats deciding when to pull the plug on ‘grandma’ (as President Obama characterized it yesterday).”

It is not clear if Rothkopf has read the legislation. Under Section 1233 of HR 3200, entitled “Advance Care Planning Consultation,” practitioners must explain “the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice,” in other words the government will be in the business of recommending euthanasia in order to “bend the curve” on health care costs, as Charles Lane noted in The Washington Post.

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» Oh, bullshit Posted by: ETSpoon

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Pie for everyone!
Posted by: Bitter_Boy on Aug 27, 2009 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't buy the "zero-sum thinking" argument. All these old people have kids, and a lot of them have expensive and/or poor coverage. And if there's anything old people love more than government handouts, it's their grandkids.

Maybe liberals should put more emphasis on covering children and young adults in the workforce? Everyone likes kids, right?

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» RE: Pie for everyone! Posted by: fooltheworld

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Just a bunch of Mindless Lemmings
Posted by: jaglover on Aug 27, 2009 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It just goes to show you that it's all spin and right-wing talking points. The very congressman who claim to hate "Government Controlled Health Care" benefit from it on a daily basis because....THEY HAVE IT!!!!! Freaking morons!!!

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How intellegent are health care reform protestors?
Posted by: Ellen Remore on Aug 27, 2009 6:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A couple of nights ago, MSNBC ran footage of an anti-health care reform rally. Standing prominently at the front of the crowd was a young man holding a placard that read, in bold black letters:

NO YOUTH IN ASIA!

Next question?

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And Speaking of Orwell...
Posted by: popeurbanxxiii on Aug 27, 2009 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I see yet another Town Hall shouter spouting off on ABCBSNBCNN or Faux, I am reminded of sheep bleating The Seven Commandments from Animal Farm

Plus, this "keep your Government hands off my Medicare" sounds an awful lot like "Four legs good, two legs better!" to me.

To shift the metaphor to 1984 for a moment; they seem to be employing a kind of Newspeak with regards to the government where nothing positive can be said about it. "The Government is doubleplusungood!" seems to be their message.

I used to say "I love my country. I fear my Government". But it is the ignorant rabble that is truly to be feared.

A mob is like a frightened, cornered animal ready to lash out at anyone or anything. A mob cannot be reasoned with. Anger blocks out rational thought.

"Free Speech" does not permit shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater. So why do we allow ABCBSNBCNN and especially Faux to shout "Fire!" in the theater of 24hr News?

Pax...
Pope Urban XXIII

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» RE: And Speaking of Orwell... Posted by: YogiBear

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Keep the debate civil and get your message across
Posted by: SayBlade on Aug 27, 2009 7:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Berlet recommends that Democrats and progressives "need to learn how to rebut false and misleading statements and beliefs without name-calling; calmly rebuke those spreading the misinformation as harming civil society; and develop strong and clear arguments to defend their proposed programs."

This is important in keeping the debate civil. Another thing is to use as few words as possible.

If the question of God (i.e. Christian values) comes into the debate, one can always pull out the story of the Baptist minister from Canada who got healthcare for all Canadians. If you like you can end the story with a statement like he was a man of God and had a heart for suffering people just like Jesus did. So, that's how Canadians got health care.

http://www.healthcoalition.ca/tommy2.html

It would be wise to look to those in the "Religious Left" to stick handle something like this if you are not a person of particular religious conviction or do not know the scriptures well. Still, you would really want to avoid a nasty exchange of prooftexting the Bible on this topic.

It may be difficult, but take pains to avoid embarrassing your "opponents".

As I understand it, the debate seems to be pretty much over. However, I also understand the possibility that health care for all Americans could happen on a state-by-state basis. It took from the late 1940s to the late 1960s to get all the provinces in Canada on board.

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» Conflicting Religions Posted by: ProgressiveManiac

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TIME FOR SOME SELF RESPECT
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Aug 27, 2009 7:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We've allowed one of the most precious things we have to be lied about, laughed at, fought over, bought and sold, languish unresolved. We have millions of Americans without Health Insurance. Most of the noise is generated from people who are well heeled and well insured. Don't we have enough self respect to tell them to "shut up" ? they have nothing to lose, we do. For ALL the TV loudmouths this is just another thing to bandy about in an effort to entertain. They don't naturally come by any class or sense of decency. It's not in their genes. But they have to be told that there's too much on the line here. We do not exist to provide them with the material they need to make far too much money. They have to find another way to get their laughs and throw around cheap shots. This is about people's lives and futures. Enough already. ANNA

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» Not anymore it's not Posted by: leafsong1

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At least 50,000 of them are paid propagandists...
Posted by: leafsong1 on Aug 27, 2009 7:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...according to the industry that hired them. That's amply enough to disrupt every town hall event in the country without resorting to busing in actual idiots. A similar amount are probably Republican rank and file party officials, who, like Democratic party officials, put electing members of their own party above any other consideration. As far as the consistency that authoritarian minds require is concerned, it should be noted that propaganda also requires extreme consistency, as the great propagandist A. Hitler so prominently wrote. If common rightists are getting their information from the propagaqnda machine, as they obviously are, then why should we assume that the bizzare, irrational consistency of their "thought" is a product of their own minds and not of the time worn and proven tactics of corporate propagandists? If these people are swayed by such irrational crap, how is it helpful to be calm and rational with them? No matter which way you slice it, the problem is excessive corporate power, and the solution does not lie in civil discourse. Professional liars cannot be persuaded except through bribes. Professional liars are dominating our national discourse, drowning out actual free speech. Our elected officials have joined their ranks, and also respond only to bribery. Much of our religious establishment is falling under the control of the same plutocratic regime. What they are doing is no more permissible by the First Amendment than the government summarily shooting someone dead because they disagree, and the government is doing that, too. It's already a gun fight, but Mr. Holland is counseling us to arm ourselves with overripe bananas. Such a stance is consistent with corporate propaganda, but quite dissonant with reality. So, Mr. Holland, is your problem in your brain or in your paycheck?

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» I ain't your sister, bub Posted by: leafsong1
» Yackkity, yack, yack, yack Posted by: ETSpoon

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Thank You!
Posted by: madmac10 on Aug 27, 2009 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I really appreciate putting all this in a scientific perspective, but especially in an historical one. Too often, people are so perplexed by such an insane movement, that they become paralyzed by confusion at best (or they become equally insane at worst!)

Understanding the motivation behind these dupes personalizes the issue once again. Often, we who are struggling for progressive causes tend to see the opposition as inhuman. We demonize our fellow citizens and succumb to our own faulty thinking (and thus play right into the hands of the puppetmasters.) This article, I believe, helps to ground us once again; helps us remember that we are fighting for those who would hurt us themselves (what a Christian concept!) Thank you for that.

But, more importantly--at least in my opinion--is the historical context that was almost hastily brushed over in this article. We need to remember how often this sort of tactic (mobilizing people against their own best interests) has been perpetrated against the American people in the past AND HAS FAILED EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN TIME (okay, maybe not with native genocide, but shit...) Poor whites were mobilized against abolition of slavery; workers were pushed into riots against a decent wage, working conditions and hours; even though the more recent struggle against human services was more subtle, the same tactics were involved. I am tremendously encouraged by the thought that they all went down eventually.

So take heart from this article. We have way to lose! We will succeed in the end, I promise.

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Motorcycle Group Expresses Concerns about Health Plan
Posted by: maxfrisson on Aug 27, 2009 7:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
AMA [American Motorcyclist Association]Expresses Concern with Health Care Debate

Millions of on-highway and off-highway motorcyclists -- as well as all-terrain vehicle (ATV) riders -- may be adversely impacted by the various heath care bills currently under consideration in Congress. The AMA opposes any legislation that may restrict the freedoms of millions of riders enjoying an active lifestyle.

Motorcyclists and ATV riders cherish personal freedom and responsibility when it comes to enjoying their passion for riding. As Congress continues to deliberate on health care reform, the AMA needs your help in urging your elected officials not to abdicate the rights of the insured to an unelected commission or board, which will render final decisions regarding appropriate medical coverage for individuals who ride as a mode of transportation or for recreation (e.g., denial of a procedure). We must remain vigilant, thereby helping to ensure that motorcyclists and ATV riders will continue to be able to pursue their chosen recreational pursuit without the addition of unneeded prohibitions, limitations or mandates stemming from the health care legislation under consideration.

There is precedent for us to be concerned with regarding any health care legislation coming from Washington. For example in 1996, Congress passed the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) that was intended to ensure non-discrimination in health coverage in the group market. However, when it came to implementing the law, the Department of Labor, the Internal Revenue Service and the Health Care Financing Administration - now the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services - issued a rule allowing insurers to deny health benefits for an otherwise covered injury that results from certain types of recreational activities, such as skiing, horseback riding, snowmobiling or motorcycling. Even though the AMA has fought this discriminatory rule with legislation, this indicates what could happen if a new health care bill is implemented by bureaucrats in Washington using biased data.

All AMA members and anyone else who enjoys an active lifestyle is urged to contact their elected officials and to tell them to protect the freedoms that riders cherish from being dictated by Washington bureaucrats.

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» You have it exactly backwards Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: You have it exactly backwards Posted by: maxfrisson
» You got Drain Bamage, bub Posted by: sausage
» RE: You got Drain Bamage, bub Posted by: maxfrisson

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What's not to like about the Postal Service and the VA?
Posted by: Gabba_Gabba_Hey on Aug 27, 2009 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good article, and I just want to throw in that I've never understood all the vitriol directed at these two.

I'm well over 40 and have NEVER, even once, had a problem with the Postal Service. With packages I much prefer them over the others, partly because they're usually cheaper and partly because of their flexibility in delivery sites (they can put the slip in the locked mailbox, for instance). I get the impression most of these Town Hall loonies have never traveled to any foreign country including Canada, but USPS rates are phenomenally low compared to other countries. And anyone who uses eBay frequently, either as a buyer or a seller, knows their dependability: look at thousands of eBay listings and see their general popularity there.

I'm also a longtime patient at VA hospitals, which are great. I do hear they used to be a shambles, before I became a patient in the '90s - before the Clinton administration! - but they're not like that now. I suppose plenty of people think they "know" all about the VA without any personal experience of it in the past 15 years.

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» I'm for VA... Posted by: james108

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QUIZ
Posted by: sirios on Aug 27, 2009 8:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1- How many readers sent back their stimulus checks?
2- Who ,if any would refuse medicare?
3-Has anyone ever sent back a tax refund?
4-during cash for clunkers, would you not accept the money being offered by the govt?

If you answered yes to the acceptance of any of the above funds, you are accepting social gifts from the US govt. [Via taxes] and therefore you may be a SOCIALIST.
How is it that we will accept money from the govt. under all sorts of categories,but won't accept socialized medicine? We as a country say nothing against spending hundreds of billions of dollars for killing by the military but not one penny for healing? Answer- we don't want to be cured of "me". The aggression of "me', the greed of "me" and the fuck everybody else but "me" disease.

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» RE: QUIZ Posted by: donnal
» RE: QUIZ Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: QUIZ - YES - Me Posted by: maxfrisson
» MISLEADING Posted by: james108

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Reliving history
Posted by: robertmc on Aug 27, 2009 8:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....doomed to repeat it
Reagan called Medicare socialism and the same arguments against it then are being made now. It's truly pathetic that the semi-literate, logically-retarded Republican teabaggers can't wrap their heads around something so simple. Did you hear the Congressman say the other day that we don't need the public option, what we need are more choices? How can you argue with people this stupid? Dems need to ignore the Republicans completely and pass whatever the hell we want. Make the Rethugs get the cots out and filibuster from now till the next election. The sad part is our democongresscritters are just as corrupt as the Repugs. Every single Dem that votes against health care reform must be voted out of office even if it means losing the election. I will no longer vote for the 'lesser of two evils'.

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» Your comment Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Social Securtiy, Medicare & Government Pensions
Posted by: donnal on Aug 27, 2009 9:44 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seniors and government workers receive part or all of their retirement and medical benefits from programs that are administered by the federal government, but funded through payroll deductions.

Medicare Part A, benefits are received by individuals who have work records (or a spouse's work record). Those who are 65 who are not eligible for Medicare Part A coverage can enroll and pay a fee. Medicare Part A is at no cost to those with work records, but Medicare Part B and D require an additonal monthly premium.

Veterans receive health care because they preformed active service in an uniform branch of the military.

Neither of these programs are entitlements, they are programs that are earned through work or service.

The Obama adminstration has lost the battle because of arrogance, no consistent message, a message divided within their party, bad timing and cost.

The reality is that we need to write new guidelines for insurance and health care that give guarantee profits to the providers and cost controls for the consumer. The current bills give all control of health care to the government, and this is where the problem lies.

This WH wants control of health care, and to leave their legacy on this issue. IF, this President is as smart as he is suppose to be, he should know that these current bills will not give him the legacy he would like to have.

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fed up in Ohio
Posted by: SPakalnis on Aug 27, 2009 10:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just got off of the phone with my daughters doctors office and they will not order an MRI because they are afraid that the insurance company will not pay for it. Basically, the insurance company has desided weather or not my 15 y.o. daughter needs an MRI. She has had re-occuring lower back pains for over a year and at first her doctor just said "growing pains". I finally got the doctor to order an
x-ray, the x-ray showed nothing. I said what about an MRI? responce was MY INSURANCE WILL NOT PAY FOR IT. I'm a single parent that has raised three children and I have been on medicaid and welfare and I have had private insurance through United Health Care while working for a large corporation. I never had any of these problems when I was recieving medicaid. If violence occures over this issue it's not going to be caused by medicaid it will be caused by the for profit insurance companies.

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I can't believe
Posted by: badkitty on Aug 27, 2009 10:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't believe Arthur Laffer didn't know Medicare and Medicaid are government programs. And as I understand it, the Post Office is a private corporation these days. He was an advisor to Reagan--but I guess this tells us that even the advisors in Republican administrations are clueless. I expect Republican presidents to be unaware of basic facts of life in the United States (remember Bush saying in a debate "what do they think Social Security is, some sort of government program?"), but I had thought their staff and advisors were more aware. On the other hand, both Cheney and Gonzales, et al, appeared to have no actual knowledge of the Constitution. I give up.

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» RE: I can't believe Posted by: Indyman
» RE: I can't believe Posted by: desidid

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Hey, Joshie Woshie
Posted by: willymack on Aug 27, 2009 11:01 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a bigger asshole than you are, and I can prove it!
Let's go to the town hall meeting , and I'll say dumber stuff than you ever thought about.
I'll show you that even though I get the facts bass ackwards, I can make more stupid noise than you.
That seems to be what's going on at the town hall meetings, what with people vying to one-up one another in the moron catagory.
Behind the apparent chaos is the fact of deep divisions among our people where there should be UNITY.
What's so friggin' bad about nobody having to worry aboout what happens if they get sick or hurt, anyway, or about getting their bogus insurance cancelled because they were stupid enough to submit a claim?
The pharma and insurance racketeers have us just where they want us, arguing about which end of an egg to open first, instead of banding together and demanding our elected officials do right by us.

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Sure
Posted by: oregoncharles on Aug 27, 2009 11:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"In fact, study after study after study show that people on Medicare are more satisfied with their access to care and the quality of that care than the rest of the population."

So why are we messing around with a half-assed, devil-in-the-details "public option?" Basic rule of negotiation: you get no more than you ask for. So why would we ask for far less than we want and need? Basic politics: enthusiasm counts. People will turn out and work like mad for proposals, or candidates, they're enthusiastic about. Offer them something half-assed or uncertain, they yawn and stay home. That's what Clinton learned in 1994, when the Democrats got wiped out in Congress, and what the Dems learned in '00 &'04.

Apparently they're ineducable.

I was just at Rep. DeFazio's town hall. Not one of the wilder ones, but a huge crowd. I didn't hear the "hands off my Medicare" line; maybe they're catching on. But only 2 points of view were represented (about equally, though it's a liberal district): Right Wing Nut, many of them deluded, and Single Payer Advocates, some of them standing by the wall with signs (me, among others). That was a good strategy, as it turned out, because only a few of those who wanted to speak could.

NO ONE was advocating "public option." No one cares. Big loser.

Oh, yeah: DeFazio's excuse for not even trying for single payer? "The transition might be hard"! Lamest thing I ever heard, an admission of dishonesty, but a theme among Oregon Dems. Maybe Alternet should address that one.

So if you want people to turn out and work, offer them what they want. Only the Green Party is doing that, and sure enough: people are switching over. Join the party at www.gp.org.

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» Wait Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Wait: DeFazio Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Wait: DeFazio Posted by: Joshua Holland

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VA Healthcare
Posted by: Jdog on Aug 27, 2009 2:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am one of the lucky few, as this article points out, to have VA medical care. I am also extremely lucky to have just stumbled onto this almost by chance as I didn't realize I qualified (I have service-related disabilities, over six years active duty, and served in Gulf War I...I'm not sure how much weight each factor is given to determine eligibility, so check with your local VA rep).

Anyway, the point is that this is the best medical care I've ever had: No co-pays (except for $8/mo per prescription for medications treating non-service related problems), 40 minute visits with my primary care physician (vs. the eight minute rush I was getting with Blue Cross physicians), immediate referrals to specialists, etc...Far from inefficiency and delays, I’m finding that the VA is very good about preventative care: If there is a problem, they want to deal with it before it gets worse. That is good for the patient and good for long-term costs. I had not had a physical in five years or so before getting into the VA system, so I've been doing a lot of blood work, vaccines, x-rays for my injuries (that have been killing me), etc...So far my experience has been that VA healthcare, unlike private insurance, is actually meant to provide...quality healthcare. Bizarre concept and a clear case of socialism (and, according the far right, un-Americanism).

I had Blue Cross. I was paying over $900.00/mo for my family, a little over half of that just for me, and nothing seemed covered. Simple common sense things, like physicals, fell outside of the coverage I had, and that resulted in thousands in out-of-pocket costs every year before we finally quit going for all but the worst problems. It was a fucking joke. I could no longer afford to pay, so I dropped myself and kept my wife and kids on. Luckily I checked with the VA. I feel like an ass for not doing it sooner.

If you're a vet, check with the VA. There are different levels of coverage and, again, I'm not sure what the criteria are, but check it out.

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Insurance Lobby Too Big To Fail
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Aug 27, 2009 3:16 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The insurance industry has their hands up bums on both sides of the aisle so how do you figure anything will change?

They hold all the cards. How could they fail to push the public option off the table? They don't even have to be subtle about it.

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All I know is I can't git PT after back surgery with my HMO
Posted by: DaBear on Aug 27, 2009 3:45 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But guys in Vansterdam, BC can git a doc, an MRI, xrays, hi-tech surgery and PT all in the span of a month or two... while I pay 500 times as much as them and spend six months doing almost all of that ('cept PT because I can't get that with my "private healthcare").

And then some dipshit rich guy with government healthcare tells me I can't have what he has?!

Jeebus, what a clusterfuck.

1789, baby. 17-fuckin'-89.

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Still more straw men
Posted by: james108 on Aug 27, 2009 4:36 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is Alternet deliberately trying to avoid a serious discussion of bringing health care costs down, in a fiscally responsible way?

The jokers you paint who say keep government away from health care but don't "touch my medicare" aren't the majority, and I've actually never met anyone like that. It is a serious discussion waiting to happen, to discuss the wasteful run corporate government the democrats try to put up and the need for public bargaining power with the health care industry. Obama took any chance of reason off the table when he made the secret deal (not so secret anymore though) to block legislative ability to bulk negotiate down drug prices or import cheaper drugs from Canada, and refuses to discuss if he made more secret deals against the public interest. Oh yeah, democrats, republicans and the media seem afraid to even ask if he made more deals, or address his lack of credibility so we can decide where to go from here. I want public health care but people seem to have put a con artist in charge I wouldn't trust with a used car lot, so what now?

Demand accountability before signing the next blank check for him, hello!!! There are other choices than blindly backing him against our interests. Where's the rational people asking questions in the holes in his plan, yes, his plan, even though he likes others to take responsibility, to cut half a trillion from medicare and Srs won't notice somehow? I know there are many more people curious about this than the wingnuts the media glorifies and alternet pedistools to tar and feather.

I'm all for single payer, but if Obama has anything to do with it and has as little demands and accountable as he does now from the "so called left" that actually runs the country now, by the way, I'm sure he'll find a way to funnel it back to his bankster backers. That said, I am not backing any vague plan of his that doesn't come close to adding up on the surface. Main street, not wall street my snarf. If he comes up with a good plan, or gets out of the way and disavows his side deals, I know there are plenty of people waiting for the chance to discuss a fiscally conservative public health policy that saves money AND lives.

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Very well done article, Mr. Holland.
Posted by: zigy on Aug 27, 2009 4:47 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think you have definitive explained the mentality of the subject people. The linguist at U.C. Berkeley, Dr. George Lakoff has written some excellent books that have gone a step further than Adorno et.al. in explaining how and why liberals and conservatives frame issues very differently; they have fundamentally different world views and it may be that their brains function is (subtly) different ways. Dr. Lakoff very aptly explains how a liberal can speak to someone of a conservative mind-set without offending them.

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» RE: Josh has let us and himself down Posted by: Joshua Holland

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As the nations biggest population, we have paid into the system all our working lives
Posted by: cori on Aug 27, 2009 6:12 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Baby Boomers have been paying into Medicare, Social Security and medicade all our working lives. These are safety nets we all depend on and have paid for.

Why pay taxes and have a government that lets us die in the gutter while our tax dollars go to wars, the rich and special interests?

I have a friend who just got back from Sweden. She said they are doing fine there. People have medical care, housing, jobs and are living comfortable lives and apparently Canadians are doing well also. They aren't suffering from exploding poverty, crumbling cities, ten's of millions without health care and empty food banks. These governments care more about their people and are making sure that their tax dollars are going to them while our people are being eaten alive. Unless we fight, special interests will use economic terrorism to continue to hold use in bondage.

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"Authoritarian Personality" Analysis Is No Help in Countering the Right Wing on Health Care
Posted by: jlandy on Aug 27, 2009 7:58 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dr. Laura Boylan and I wrote the piece below as an attempt to explain and help to counter the right wing bullies at town hall meetings around the country. IMHO it is a much more valuable analysis than trotting out shopworn catchphrases like "authoritarian personalilty" to explain what is going on; we try to talk about the deep vulnerability of the mainstream Democratic proposals to rightwing demagogery.

In a reasoned debate, single payer will come out on top

by Laura S. Boylan, MD and Joanne Landy, MPH
PNHP Blog - Physicians for a National Health Program

One can only feel sorrow and dismay at the bullying and hate-mongering that is taking place at health care forums around the country.

Massive job losses, the devaluation and foreclosures of people's homes, and precipitous declines in lifetime savings produce widespread fears of further loss. In an era of insecurity, mainstream Democratic Party proposals for reforming the health system have played into such fears.

A health care "reform" that protects private insurers and massive profits for the pharmaceutical industry inevitably becomes an ugly game where ordinary people's interests are pitted against each other. Witness, for example, the proposed cuts to Medicaid and Medicare to fund an initiative that subsidizes the mandated purchase of private insurance with taxpayer dollars. Relatively little is offered to the already insured majority who are told of upcoming belt-tightening.

The near-total exclusion of single payer from the health care debate by our political leaders and the media has contributed to the present state of affairs.

Single payer is an expanded and improved Medicare for All ("Medicare 2.0"). Many, perhaps most, Americans have come to believe in the false choice between universal coverage and quality health care.

Our nation needs a meaningful dialogue, including a fair hearing of the views of the 20 million
constituents of the Leadership Conference on Guaranteed Health Care (of which Physicians for a National Health Program is a founding member), who advocate for single-payer national health insurance. Polls show that most of the public and their physicians favor such an approach.

There is simply no other viable solution to the problems facing us all, insured and uninsured. With Medicare 2.0, the already insured would benefit from radically reduced out-of-pocket costs for comprehensive insurance and expanded choice of doctors and hospitals. Medicare 2.0 stays with you for life, independent of your employment. The epidemic of medical bankruptcies
would be just a bad memory.

It is unnecessary to pit the insured against the uninsured, or those with Medicare and Medicaid against those with private insurance.

Multi-payer, for-profit health insurance adds cost but not value to American health care. Savings of $400 billion a year can be obtained through the conversion to a single-payer system. With the money we are now spending (twice as much per capita as other developed nations), we can provide full service "what you need,when you need it" health care for everyone and control costs going forward.

With the "everybody in, nobody out" approach of a Medicare 2.0 system, we can all get more freedom, choice and security.

Single-payer advocates have been excluded from debate not because our premises or facts are wrong but because special interests, including the private health insurance industry and the big drug companies, have been allowed to define the limits of "politically feasible."

article continued at www.pnhp.org, search for "bullies at town hall meetings"

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This One You Won't Believe
Posted by: Lilly on Aug 28, 2009 10:09 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Friday night 8-28: go to townhall.com to see an article saying that the GOP has sent out a fundraising letter suggesting that if a health care bill is passed, Democrats are going to withhold medical care from Republicans.

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» RE: Damn Posted by: desidid
» RE: Damn Posted by: Beck

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At this very moment...
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford on Aug 28, 2009 10:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A secessionist group in Texas is working towards a petition to vote on Texas seceding from the union.

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/28/texas-tenthers-rally/

Being that Texas is host to a vast bastion of conservatives (despite the liberals who live there), perhaps it's time to cut the cord. Perhaps we should let them and every other red state secede. Let the entire world see just how stupid conservatives really are.

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» RE: At this very moment... Posted by: maxfrisson

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darksnark
Posted by: sfield1 on Aug 30, 2009 4:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Angry protesters who yell slogans like "stop the government takeover of Medicare" are living proof that one does not have to be informed to be angry. Such people are exactly the sort that Lenin once called "useful idiots"!

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And how could these people
Posted by: teon6 on Sep 19, 2009 2:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How sane could be a polity that sits by with relative complacence when its leaders launch devastating and groundless invasions of foreign lands but approach a full-on rebellion when those leaders make some modest moves to deliver decent health care at a price people can afford?

And how could these people be so divorced from the dynamics of their own health the vampire diaries subtitles the vampire diaries season 1 electronic ballast 14 watt compact fluorescent electronic ballast millivoltmeter audio millivoltmeter seropol5 care that they don't appear to understand that the Medicare they value so highly is very much a government-run health care program?

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The Answer is Simple ... "Medicare for All "...
Posted by: mmckinl on Aug 27, 2009 12:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Medicare for All" cuts right through the cognitive dissonance ... but you won't hear the term "Medicare for All" from politicians (except the 80 or so progressive House Members signed up for Hr676 ) because they are married to their ongoing contributions from Health Care Inc.

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What is the differance between Medicare and Medicaid
Posted by: Lara1967 on Aug 27, 2009 1:30 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a big difference...Medicare is available to all U.S. citizens 65 years of age or older and it also covers people with certain disabilities.It is available regardless of income.

The four-part program includes:

Part A: Hospitalization coverage.
Part B: Medical insurance.
Part C: Privately purchased supplemental insurance that provides additional services and through which all Medicare services offered by Part A and Part B can be accessed.
Part D: Prescription drug coverage.

Parts A and B are paid for by payroll taxes and deductions from Social Security income.
Parts C and D are paid out-of-pocket by program participants.

The Medicare and Medicaid programs work together to provide medical coverage to elderly and poor people. Medicare is the primary medical coverage provider for many persons aged 65 and older and for those with a disability. Eligibility has nothing to do with income level. Meanwhile, Medicaid eligibility is designed for people with limited income, and it is often a program of last resort for those without access to other resources.

Since this is the case, how many people who believes Illegals should get this service when it stickly says in you have to be US Citizen...

Alot of obama supporters doesnt understand the differance and those who wants it change is so the illegals can get the services while Americans Citizens are left out in the cold.

People want coverage for all ? well All doesnt include illegals..there are Americans between the ages of 40 to 60 who doesnt have any kind of FREE health care nor could they afford private health care as well.. why not focus on the people who actually doesnt have it ...But Obama is going to let you understand this, since they want to give Illegals everything free while Americans get nothing...

I voted for Obama in 2009 and his Change is a lie.

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» Huh? Posted by: chaoslegs
» Anyone else notice... Posted by: dbarber
» RE: Anyone else notice... Posted by: scearfo
» RE: Anyone else notice... Posted by: badkitty
» RE: Anyone else notice... Posted by: Seranvali
» RE: Anyone else notice... Posted by: Seranvali
» Zombie Lies Posted by: Joshua Holland
» I voted for him in 2008 myself Posted by: hurricane hugo

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off topic!
Posted by: foreverhope on Aug 27, 2009 2:57 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wish someone would bring me a cigeratte!

I'm dyin' here!

Joshua! see my note about repug thugs 'worried' about another terrorist attack!

THEY ARE THE TERRORISTS JOSHUA!

FOR REAL!

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» RE: off topic! Posted by: Benn_Miller

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Same Behavior
Posted by: Jo1028 on Aug 27, 2009 3:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another issue that evokes similar behavior in protesters is sex education, with people believing and being frightened by the lies proclaimed by opponents, ie., it causes kids to have sex, putting condoms on bananas, using condoms is ineffective, etc. I found that that the best way to deal with these people, when they're shouting at you, is to make eye contact, calmly ask if you can ask them a question, and then ask something that will break their train of thought - like 'do you know your child's teacher? Do you think she would put a condom on a banana?

You have to bring them back to reality in a casual and friendly way - ie., do you have Medicare? Do you like your doctor? Did you know Medicare is a government program?

It's like they've been brainwashed; they're reading from a script - and to get through, you must dislodge the script - Most often, other people in the group will start agreeing with you and the protester begins to feel that pressure. It may not change their minds immediately, but it does make them start to think about the legitimacy of what they are claiming.

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» RE: Same Behavior Posted by: Lilly
» So true. Posted by: Parcival01
» RE: So true. Posted by: Uncle John
» RE: Same Behavior Posted by: madmac10

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TIME FOR A NATIONAL LONG-TERM STRIKE - SHUT 'EM DOWN!!
Posted by: mattnrva on Aug 27, 2009 3:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just read Larry Flynt's essay on a National Strike Day and I have to say I agree all the way!! For years I have been telling people I know locally in my city (Richmond VA) about the need for a general strike in the U.S. Almost all of them kind of yawned and said "I feel what you're saying" then went right back into their little world and fell back asleep...

We have to GALVANIZE the EVERYDAY PEOPLE in this country -- EVERYONE!! It will take many charismatic local leaders -- all over our country -- to excite people locally and to start spreading excitement outward -- before you know it, people will be on board.

And -- not just a 1-day strike. A CRIPPLING STRIKE that COMPLETELY SHUTS DOWN THE U.S. ECONOMY until our demands are MET 100%. That means no work -- no shopping -- NO entertainment -- not even groceries!! We need to do what the people in France do -- they take to the streets in a HEARTBEAT -- and they STRIKE whenever the government won't listen to them -- and they DO shut down the country almost COMPLETELY when they do -- in France the government is AFRAID OF THE PEOPLE -- in America the sheeple are afraid of the government...

It's time to GROW A PAIR people -- get off your asses and JOIN THE STRIKE...We should shut down the economy as much as possible until we FORCE THEM to pass single payer health coverage -- and term limits -- and public campaign financing -- and other things --

WHERE ARE YOUR BALLS SHEEPLE?!!? STOP ACTING LIKE MIND-CONTROLLED ZOMBIES and TAKE ACTION -- the only action they understand is MONEY -- so let's refuse to be their slaves for a few days and see what these MF's think of THAT!!!

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» As likely to happen... Posted by: Parcival01
» Interesting you should say so Posted by: chrysalis124812
» NATIONAL LONG-TERM STRIKE Posted by: leighsure

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How Do These Crazies Poll on Public Education?
Posted by: drricklippin on Aug 27, 2009 4:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like to compare US committment to providing basic public education FOR ALL to the government providing basic health care FOR ALL.

How do these conservatives poll on their desire to maintain public education?

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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» um...hold on there... Posted by: undrgrndgirl

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Facinating Neuro-Psychological Hypothesis
Posted by: drricklippin on Aug 27, 2009 4:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Altemeyer found in the personality[the authoritarian] a tendency to avoid cognitive dissonance -- the discomfort caused by holding two contradictory ideas -- at all costs and to lash out when confronted with it

JUST FACINATING - THANKS!

These neuro-traits are established early in life and regrettably are probably immutable physiologically. Hence we must emphasize not poisoning the minds of our children.

Of course they are correlated to the ultimate authority figure of a vengeful all knowing God-hence the correlation of conservatism to religiosity (especially strict fundamentalism) where also there is no room for reason to exist or prevail.

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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I want to shine the spotlight on this line:
Posted by: HeroesAll on Aug 27, 2009 4:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How sane could be a polity that sits by with relative complacence when its leaders launch devastating and groundless invasions of foreign lands but approach a full-on rebellion when those leaders make some modest moves to deliver decent health care at a price people can afford?

Ya got me, Joshua: how sane could they be? Honestly, us here in the non-US world have some fairly unflattering views of 'Murrikans, and it's only thanks to the likes of Alternet that we're able to see the whole country isn't a seething mass of violent, ignorant, bigots.

On a more serious note, I'd say that both sides of that question are rooted, to at least some extent, in American exceptionalism: America is best at everything, so any change represents a degradation (and how shame-making to have to do something after the Swedes had done it first!), and similarly, America has the right to bomb the bejeesus out of furr'n countries whenever they choose, if only because it makes Americans feel big and tough.

The whole hysteria over health care is obviously ginned up by vested interests, because it's so ludicrous. Obama could have offered completely free health care for everyone with no strings, funded by his own private squillions obtained from his birth certificate business or auctioning off his foreskin or whatever the latest right wing wail is, and they'd still have a tantrum. He could offer them ponies and a free gold bar with every doctor's visit, and they'd still scream about Hitler and communists and fascists (sometimes all at once).

That's the basic truth: you can't convince these people that you're not some super-evil cabal who want to eat their children and steal their property. Doesn't matter how much you have facts, logic, or ethics on your side, they've got their world view and they ain't changing it.

I imagine a similar situation happened when someone first suggested that maybe the earth wasn't flat. Nice to know we've come such a long way.

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Media Distortion
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Aug 27, 2009 4:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We've grown so accustomed to media reports that totally misrepresent events. There were the Swift-boaters who presented John Kerry as a coward who did not deserve the metals he won in battle and there was the characterization of Al Gore as a serial lier. There are many more examples and we've grown to think that the distortions always defame the left and forgive the sins of the right and it does seem as though there is a serious imbalance in this regard.

But in this instance, it seems to me that the shoe may be on the other foot. Maybe that is only fair, but let's not be fooled by it. There may well be some truth in the rather absurd thought that these retired protesters don't realize that their Medicare is a government program, but there is another explanation for this seemingly ridiculous shout from the crowd.

Inarticulate as they may be, at least some of these Medicare beneficiaries are probably expressing a legitimate concern about the consequences of healthcare reform on the Medicare program that they rely on. Understandibly, they don't want Medicare to be changed and they don't want it to be underfunded. However, there have been statements by the Obama administration that healthcare reform will be funded out of savings from Medicare. It's not hard to see how someone who already mistrusts Obama might misconstrue such a statement.

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Curb Cuts
Posted by: Lilly on Aug 27, 2009 4:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you get around on two feet, you probably never notice curb cuts; if you get around on wheels, you notice them a lot. I don't think I ever even saw a curb cut until my husband started using a scooter. On wheels, you quickly learn that without curb cuts you would not be able to travel a single block from home without hailing a taxi: no grocery store, no doctor's appointments, no going out to lunch, no picking up a prescription, no wandering up to the park on a nice afternoon to feed peanuts to the squirrels.

Curb cuts were mandated by the Americans With Disabilities Act, part of the legacy of Senator Ted Kennedy. Consider this a personal thank-you.

And I wonder whether today the Republican view of curb cut legislation would be 1) "Mandating curb cuts means takeover by an intrusive Socialist government"; 2) "Mandate curb cuts and we lose our freedom!"; 3) "Let every free American make his own individual curb cuts".

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Can't blame people for their ignorance
Posted by: peacelf on Aug 27, 2009 4:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Progressives need to parlay their attacks on the american educational system that schools young people to doublethink, as Orwell so eloquently put it. Indeed, progressive minded people too often overlook the power of public education in indoctrinating americans into the corporate system of thinking: a system that prepares future workers, not active, critical citizens in a democratic society.

Every institution in america works for the benefit of corporations, or more euphemistically, the "economy." The "what-do-you-want-to-be" when you grow up mantra is deeply ingrained in public schooling. Good workers make good foot soldiers for corporate interests. This is the cognitive dissonance we witness at town hall meetings.

More specifically, educational theorists call it the "hidden curriculum of work": i.e. behaviors, attitudes, values, etc. covertly taught in school that is not part of the overt lessons.

For example, the classroom runs more like a dictatorship than a democracy; this more closely resembles a corporation. Teachers are the "supervisors." They tell students what to think, which questions are important and which are unimportant.

Critical thinking is frowned upon, unless it is tied to lessons in the ordained curriculum. "Why are we learning this?" questions are met with punishment or embarrassment..."because it's in the book!"

The structure of the school plays an important role as well. Dividing knowledge into "subjects" has pernicious affects on cognition, and in many cases, perpetuates dissonance because knowledge is compartmentalized. What one learns in science cannot be easily transfer to history class. Indeed, many contradictions can exist between the two (think evolution and religion).

Moreover, public education glorifies the accomplishments of mostly wealthy white males and marginalizes women and people of color. The Humanities are reduced to memorizing dates and facts in history, and punctuation and sentence structure in English. Empathy and sympathy are spelling words.

No child left behind means no child who isn't indoctrinated into the economic education system.

So, what we're witnessing at these TH meetings are products of public education (by public I mean most private schools as well). They learned too well what they were told to do, so they can't be blamed.

So, if you want to see real change in america, fight to make public education more democratic. Teach your children to be critical thinkers, and active citizens.

Peace

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FOX, Ads, and Government
Posted by: Lilly on Aug 27, 2009 5:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Note that when watching FOX during daytime hours the anti-Obama anti-health care programming is often interrupted by two particular commercials. One is for getting your scooter free from the government ("My scooter didn't cost me one red cent!") and the other tells how to get your diabetes supplies ditto ("Liberty delivers them right to my door"). Both messages are delivered by elderly actors; in both cases, what's necessary is paid for by Medicare, a program of (sob) the federal government. Then the commercials end and it's back to bashing Obama and intrusive government.

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» RE: FOX, Ads, and Government Posted by: Bob Horn

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FEAR the great motivator
Posted by: timenotonmyside on Aug 27, 2009 5:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans are stupid, stupid, stupid and FEARFUL.
Americans have been programmed for the last 8 years to accept FEAR into their lives.
Just look at how Bush used the terror levels after 9-11.
Let's face it, the majority of Americans get their information from MSM sound bites, and look no further.

I read an article written by a sociologist who says that this irrational exceptance of outright lies is a symptom. He says these people feel threatened when they see a ''black man'' standing before them as the president of the united states.

I've said all along that this country hasn't come far enough with regards to race to trust in a black president. This makes me sad, not fearful, that so many so-called ''americans'' are still living in 1950.

I voted for Barack Obama and would do so again in a heart beat.

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AMEN Brother!
Posted by: wtfo on Aug 27, 2009 5:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have to agree wholeheartedly with this article. I have lost count of the number of "friends", relatives, and acquaintances who all have this same, bizarre, rant. "Keep government out of my healthcare decisions" - but at the same time "Don't touch my medicare/medicaid/VA Healthcare - or else..."

At first I thought that they were just ignorant but now I think that a majority of them are indeed just saying "I got mine - screw you". In fact I have had conversations with a certain "friend" in which I finally got him to say that "We should not touch Medicare until it is financially solvent". When I pointed out that it was easy for him to make this demand since he already had Medicare and I was not yet old enough to get it, he said nothing in return. He was also strangely quiet when I simply stated "All I want is the same healthcare that you and my mother have - especially since I am paying for it all".

When I pointed out to this same friend that his children and grandchildren were "on their own" on healthcare while his was guaranteed by the government and asked what he would do if one of THEM had a serious medical problem and no insurance - he said "I would pay for the healthcare". Then when I pointed out that it might cost more money than even HE had and asked what he would do if they were faced with the decision to either seek "government assistance" or watch his loved ones die, he said "then they should die"!!!

Sometimes its fun to twist these stupid people into logically-induced pretzels...

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» RE: AMEN Brother! Posted by: Uncle John
» RE: Wow and Wow Posted by: desidid

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Health Care Reform - Nothing Much Is Changing
Posted by: mtcloud on Aug 27, 2009 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Undue Influence
The House Bill Skews End-of-Life Counsel

By Charles Lane
Saturday, August 8, 2009 Washington Post

Click Here For Full Text

About a third of Americans have living wills or advance-care directives expressing their wishes for end-of-life treatment. When seniors who don't have them arrive in a hospital terminally ill and incapacitated, families and medical workers wrestle with uncertainty -- while life-prolonging machinery runs, often at Medicare's expense. This has consequences for families and for the federal budget.

Enter Section 1233 of the health-care bill drafted in the Democratic-led House, which would pay doctors to give Medicare patients end-of-life counseling every five years -- or sooner if the patient gets a terminal diagnosis.

______________________________________

Globalist Snob Rothkopf Says Town Hall Demonstrators Are Morons

Kurt Nimmo Infowars August 13, 2009

Click Here For Full text
David Rothkopf, managing director of Kissinger and Associates and CFR member, has published an op-ed in the globalist propaganda periodical Foreign Policy.
featured stories Globalist Snob Rothkopf Says Town Hall Demonstrators Are Morons
featured stories Globalist Snob Rothkopf Says Town Hall Demonstrators Are Morons

David Rothkopf thinks you’re an idiot for protesting against Obamacare.


“America has been suffering an outbreak of especially virulent and acute stupidity recently,” writes Rothkopf. “It has been particularly manifest at town hall meetings devoted to ‘discussions’ of health care reform in which incensed Republicans scream at the top of their lungs about provisions that are not actually in any of the legislation under consideration — for example the so-called ‘death panels’ that would have bureaucrats deciding when to pull the plug on ‘grandma’ (as President Obama characterized it yesterday).”

It is not clear if Rothkopf has read the legislation. Under Section 1233 of HR 3200, entitled “Advance Care Planning Consultation,” practitioners must explain “the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice,” in other words the government will be in the business of recommending euthanasia in order to “bend the curve” on health care costs, as Charles Lane noted in The Washington Post.

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» Oh, bullshit Posted by: ETSpoon

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Pie for everyone!
Posted by: Bitter_Boy on Aug 27, 2009 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't buy the "zero-sum thinking" argument. All these old people have kids, and a lot of them have expensive and/or poor coverage. And if there's anything old people love more than government handouts, it's their grandkids.

Maybe liberals should put more emphasis on covering children and young adults in the workforce? Everyone likes kids, right?

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» RE: Pie for everyone! Posted by: fooltheworld

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Just a bunch of Mindless Lemmings
Posted by: jaglover on Aug 27, 2009 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It just goes to show you that it's all spin and right-wing talking points. The very congressman who claim to hate "Government Controlled Health Care" benefit from it on a daily basis because....THEY HAVE IT!!!!! Freaking morons!!!

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How intellegent are health care reform protestors?
Posted by: Ellen Remore on Aug 27, 2009 6:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A couple of nights ago, MSNBC ran footage of an anti-health care reform rally. Standing prominently at the front of the crowd was a young man holding a placard that read, in bold black letters:

NO YOUTH IN ASIA!

Next question?

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And Speaking of Orwell...
Posted by: popeurbanxxiii on Aug 27, 2009 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I see yet another Town Hall shouter spouting off on ABCBSNBCNN or Faux, I am reminded of sheep bleating The Seven Commandments from Animal Farm

Plus, this "keep your Government hands off my Medicare" sounds an awful lot like "Four legs good, two legs better!" to me.

To shift the metaphor to 1984 for a moment; they seem to be employing a kind of Newspeak with regards to the government where nothing positive can be said about it. "The Government is doubleplusungood!" seems to be their message.

I used to say "I love my country. I fear my Government". But it is the ignorant rabble that is truly to be feared.

A mob is like a frightened, cornered animal ready to lash out at anyone or anything. A mob cannot be reasoned with. Anger blocks out rational thought.

"Free Speech" does not permit shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater. So why do we allow ABCBSNBCNN and especially Faux to shout "Fire!" in the theater of 24hr News?

Pax...
Pope Urban XXIII

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» RE: And Speaking of Orwell... Posted by: YogiBear

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Keep the debate civil and get your message across
Posted by: SayBlade on Aug 27, 2009 7:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Berlet recommends that Democrats and progressives "need to learn how to rebut false and misleading statements and beliefs without name-calling; calmly rebuke those spreading the misinformation as harming civil society; and develop strong and clear arguments to defend their proposed programs."

This is important in keeping the debate civil. Another thing is to use as few words as possible.

If the question of God (i.e. Christian values) comes into the debate, one can always pull out the story of the Baptist minister from Canada who got healthcare for all Canadians. If you like you can end the story with a statement like he was a man of God and had a heart for suffering people just like Jesus did. So, that's how Canadians got health care.

http://www.healthcoalition.ca/tommy2.html

It would be wise to look to those in the "Religious Left" to stick handle something like this if you are not a person of particular religious conviction or do not know the scriptures well. Still, you would really want to avoid a nasty exchange of prooftexting the Bible on this topic.

It may be difficult, but take pains to avoid embarrassing your "opponents".

As I understand it, the debate seems to be pretty much over. However, I also understand the possibility that health care for all Americans could happen on a state-by-state basis. It took from the late 1940s to the late 1960s to get all the provinces in Canada on board.

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» Conflicting Religions Posted by: ProgressiveManiac

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TIME FOR SOME SELF RESPECT
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Aug 27, 2009 7:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We've allowed one of the most precious things we have to be lied about, laughed at, fought over, bought and sold, languish unresolved. We have millions of Americans without Health Insurance. Most of the noise is generated from people who are well heeled and well insured. Don't we have enough self respect to tell them to "shut up" ? they have nothing to lose, we do. For ALL the TV loudmouths this is just another thing to bandy about in an effort to entertain. They don't naturally come by any class or sense of decency. It's not in their genes. But they have to be told that there's too much on the line here. We do not exist to provide them with the material they need to make far too much money. They have to find another way to get their laughs and throw around cheap shots. This is about people's lives and futures. Enough already. ANNA

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» Not anymore it's not Posted by: leafsong1

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At least 50,000 of them are paid propagandists...
Posted by: leafsong1 on Aug 27, 2009 7:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...according to the industry that hired them. That's amply enough to disrupt every town hall event in the country without resorting to busing in actual idiots. A similar amount are probably Republican rank and file party officials, who, like Democratic party officials, put electing members of their own party above any other consideration. As far as the consistency that authoritarian minds require is concerned, it should be noted that propaganda also requires extreme consistency, as the great propagandist A. Hitler so prominently wrote. If common rightists are getting their information from the propagaqnda machine, as they obviously are, then why should we assume that the bizzare, irrational consistency of their "thought" is a product of their own minds and not of the time worn and proven tactics of corporate propagandists? If these people are swayed by such irrational crap, how is it helpful to be calm and rational with them? No matter which way you slice it, the problem is excessive corporate power, and the solution does not lie in civil discourse. Professional liars cannot be persuaded except through bribes. Professional liars are dominating our national discourse, drowning out actual free speech. Our elected officials have joined their ranks, and also respond only to bribery. Much of our religious establishment is falling under the control of the same plutocratic regime. What they are doing is no more permissible by the First Amendment than the government summarily shooting someone dead because they disagree, and the government is doing that, too. It's already a gun fight, but Mr. Holland is counseling us to arm ourselves with overripe bananas. Such a stance is consistent with corporate propaganda, but quite dissonant with reality. So, Mr. Holland, is your problem in your brain or in your paycheck?

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» I ain't your sister, bub Posted by: leafsong1
» Yackkity, yack, yack, yack Posted by: ETSpoon

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Thank You!
Posted by: madmac10 on Aug 27, 2009 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I really appreciate putting all this in a scientific perspective, but especially in an historical one. Too often, people are so perplexed by such an insane movement, that they become paralyzed by confusion at best (or they become equally insane at worst!)

Understanding the motivation behind these dupes personalizes the issue once again. Often, we who are struggling for progressive causes tend to see the opposition as inhuman. We demonize our fellow citizens and succumb to our own faulty thinking (and thus play right into the hands of the puppetmasters.) This article, I believe, helps to ground us once again; helps us remember that we are fighting for those who would hurt us themselves (what a Christian concept!) Thank you for that.

But, more importantly--at least in my opinion--is the historical context that was almost hastily brushed over in this article. We need to remember how often this sort of tactic (mobilizing people against their own best interests) has been perpetrated against the American people in the past AND HAS FAILED EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN TIME (okay, maybe not with native genocide, but shit...) Poor whites were mobilized against abolition of slavery; workers were pushed into riots against a decent wage, working conditions and hours; even though the more recent struggle against human services was more subtle, the same tactics were involved. I am tremendously encouraged by the thought that they all went down eventually.

So take heart from this article. We have way to lose! We will succeed in the end, I promise.

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Motorcycle Group Expresses Concerns about Health Plan
Posted by: maxfrisson on Aug 27, 2009 7:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
AMA [American Motorcyclist Association]Expresses Concern with Health Care Debate

Millions of on-highway and off-highway motorcyclists -- as well as all-terrain vehicle (ATV) riders -- may be adversely impacted by the various heath care bills currently under consideration in Congress. The AMA opposes any legislation that may restrict the freedoms of millions of riders enjoying an active lifestyle.

Motorcyclists and ATV riders cherish personal freedom and responsibility when it comes to enjoying their passion for riding. As Congress continues to deliberate on health care reform, the AMA needs your help in urging your elected officials not to abdicate the rights of the insured to an unelected commission or board, which will render final decisions regarding appropriate medical coverage for individuals who ride as a mode of transportation or for recreation (e.g., denial of a procedure). We must remain vigilant, thereby helping to ensure that motorcyclists and ATV riders will continue to be able to pursue their chosen recreational pursuit without the addition of unneeded prohibitions, limitations or mandates stemming from the health care legislation under consideration.

There is precedent for us to be concerned with regarding any health care legislation coming from Washington. For example in 1996, Congress passed the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) that was intended to ensure non-discrimination in health coverage in the group market. However, when it came to implementing the law, the Department of Labor, the Internal Revenue Service and the Health Care Financing Administration - now the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services - issued a rule allowing insurers to deny health benefits for an otherwise covered injury that results from certain types of recreational activities, such as skiing, horseback riding, snowmobiling or motorcycling. Even though the AMA has fought this discriminatory rule with legislation, this indicates what could happen if a new health care bill is implemented by bureaucrats in Washington using biased data.

All AMA members and anyone else who enjoys an active lifestyle is urged to contact their elected officials and to tell them to protect the freedoms that riders cherish from being dictated by Washington bureaucrats.

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» You have it exactly backwards Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: You have it exactly backwards Posted by: maxfrisson
» You got Drain Bamage, bub Posted by: sausage
» RE: You got Drain Bamage, bub Posted by: maxfrisson

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What's not to like about the Postal Service and the VA?
Posted by: Gabba_Gabba_Hey on Aug 27, 2009 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good article, and I just want to throw in that I've never understood all the vitriol directed at these two.

I'm well over 40 and have NEVER, even once, had a problem with the Postal Service. With packages I much prefer them over the others, partly because they're usually cheaper and partly because of their flexibility in delivery sites (they can put the slip in the locked mailbox, for instance). I get the impression most of these Town Hall loonies have never traveled to any foreign country including Canada, but USPS rates are phenomenally low compared to other countries. And anyone who uses eBay frequently, either as a buyer or a seller, knows their dependability: look at thousands of eBay listings and see their general popularity there.

I'm also a longtime patient at VA hospitals, which are great. I do hear they used to be a shambles, before I became a patient in the '90s - before the Clinton administration! - but they're not like that now. I suppose plenty of people think they "know" all about the VA without any personal experience of it in the past 15 years.

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» I'm for VA... Posted by: james108

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QUIZ
Posted by: sirios on Aug 27, 2009 8:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1- How many readers sent back their stimulus checks?
2- Who ,if any would refuse medicare?
3-Has anyone ever sent back a tax refund?
4-during cash for clunkers, would you not accept the money being offered by the govt?

If you answered yes to the acceptance of any of the above funds, you are accepting social gifts from the US govt. [Via taxes] and therefore you may be a SOCIALIST.
How is it that we will accept money from the govt. under all sorts of categories,but won't accept socialized medicine? We as a country say nothing against spending hundreds of billions of dollars for killing by the military but not one penny for healing? Answer- we don't want to be cured of "me". The aggression of "me', the greed of "me" and the fuck everybody else but "me" disease.

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» RE: QUIZ Posted by: donnal
» RE: QUIZ Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: QUIZ - YES - Me Posted by: maxfrisson
» MISLEADING Posted by: james108

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Reliving history
Posted by: robertmc on Aug 27, 2009 8:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....doomed to repeat it
Reagan called Medicare socialism and the same arguments against it then are being made now. It's truly pathetic that the semi-literate, logically-retarded Republican teabaggers can't wrap their heads around something so simple. Did you hear the Congressman say the other day that we don't need the public option, what we need are more choices? How can you argue with people this stupid? Dems need to ignore the Republicans completely and pass whatever the hell we want. Make the Rethugs get the cots out and filibuster from now till the next election. The sad part is our democongresscritters are just as corrupt as the Repugs. Every single Dem that votes against health care reform must be voted out of office even if it means losing the election. I will no longer vote for the 'lesser of two evils'.

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» Your comment Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Social Securtiy, Medicare & Government Pensions
Posted by: donnal on Aug 27, 2009 9:44 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seniors and government workers receive part or all of their retirement and medical benefits from programs that are administered by the federal government, but funded through payroll deductions.

Medicare Part A, benefits are received by individuals who have work records (or a spouse's work record). Those who are 65 who are not eligible for Medicare Part A coverage can enroll and pay a fee. Medicare Part A is at no cost to those with work records, but Medicare Part B and D require an additonal monthly premium.

Veterans receive health care because they preformed active service in an uniform branch of the military.

Neither of these programs are entitlements, they are programs that are earned through work or service.

The Obama adminstration has lost the battle because of arrogance, no consistent message, a message divided within their party, bad timing and cost.

The reality is that we need to write new guidelines for insurance and health care that give guarantee profits to the providers and cost controls for the consumer. The current bills give all control of health care to the government, and this is where the problem lies.

This WH wants control of health care, and to leave their legacy on this issue. IF, this President is as smart as he is suppose to be, he should know that these current bills will not give him the legacy he would like to have.

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fed up in Ohio
Posted by: SPakalnis on Aug 27, 2009 10:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just got off of the phone with my daughters doctors office and they will not order an MRI because they are afraid that the insurance company will not pay for it. Basically, the insurance company has desided weather or not my 15 y.o. daughter needs an MRI. She has had re-occuring lower back pains for over a year and at first her doctor just said "growing pains". I finally got the doctor to order an
x-ray, the x-ray showed nothing. I said what about an MRI? responce was MY INSURANCE WILL NOT PAY FOR IT. I'm a single parent that has raised three children and I have been on medicaid and welfare and I have had private insurance through United Health Care while working for a large corporation. I never had any of these problems when I was recieving medicaid. If violence occures over this issue it's not going to be caused by medicaid it will be caused by the for profit insurance companies.

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I can't believe
Posted by: badkitty on Aug 27, 2009 10:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't believe Arthur Laffer didn't know Medicare and Medicaid are government programs. And as I understand it, the Post Office is a private corporation these days. He was an advisor to Reagan--but I guess this tells us that even the advisors in Republican administrations are clueless. I expect Republican presidents to be unaware of basic facts of life in the United States (remember Bush saying in a debate "what do they think Social Security is, some sort of government program?"), but I had thought their staff and advisors were more aware. On the other hand, both Cheney and Gonzales, et al, appeared to have no actual knowledge of the Constitution. I give up.

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» RE: I can't believe Posted by: Indyman
» RE: I can't believe Posted by: desidid

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Hey, Joshie Woshie
Posted by: willymack on Aug 27, 2009 11:01 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a bigger asshole than you are, and I can prove it!
Let's go to the town hall meeting , and I'll say dumber stuff than you ever thought about.
I'll show you that even though I get the facts bass ackwards, I can make more stupid noise than you.
That seems to be what's going on at the town hall meetings, what with people vying to one-up one another in the moron catagory.
Behind the apparent chaos is the fact of deep divisions among our people where there should be UNITY.
What's so friggin' bad about nobody having to worry aboout what happens if they get sick or hurt, anyway, or about getting their bogus insurance cancelled because they were stupid enough to submit a claim?
The pharma and insurance racketeers have us just where they want us, arguing about which end of an egg to open first, instead of banding together and demanding our elected officials do right by us.

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Sure
Posted by: oregoncharles on Aug 27, 2009 11:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"In fact, study after study after study show that people on Medicare are more satisfied with their access to care and the quality of that care than the rest of the population."

So why are we messing around with a half-assed, devil-in-the-details "public option?" Basic rule of negotiation: you get no more than you ask for. So why would we ask for far less than we want and need? Basic politics: enthusiasm counts. People will turn out and work like mad for proposals, or candidates, they're enthusiastic about. Offer them something half-assed or uncertain, they yawn and stay home. That's what Clinton learned in 1994, when the Democrats got wiped out in Congress, and what the Dems learned in '00 &'04.

Apparently they're ineducable.

I was just at Rep. DeFazio's town hall. Not one of the wilder ones, but a huge crowd. I didn't hear the "hands off my Medicare" line; maybe they're catching on. But only 2 points of view were represented (about equally, though it's a liberal district): Right Wing Nut, many of them deluded, and Single Payer Advocates, some of them standing by the wall with signs (me, among others). That was a good strategy, as it turned out, because only a few of those who wanted to speak could.

NO ONE was advocating "public option." No one cares. Big loser.

Oh, yeah: DeFazio's excuse for not even trying for single payer? "The transition might be hard"! Lamest thing I ever heard, an admission of dishonesty, but a theme among Oregon Dems. Maybe Alternet should address that one.

So if you want people to turn out and work, offer them what they want. Only the Green Party is doing that, and sure enough: people are switching over. Join the party at www.gp.org.

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» Wait Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Wait: DeFazio Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Wait: DeFazio Posted by: Joshua Holland

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VA Healthcare
Posted by: Jdog on Aug 27, 2009 2:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am one of the lucky few, as this article points out, to have VA medical care. I am also extremely lucky to have just stumbled onto this almost by chance as I didn't realize I qualified (I have service-related disabilities, over six years active duty, and served in Gulf War I...I'm not sure how much weight each factor is given to determine eligibility, so check with your local VA rep).

Anyway, the point is that this is the best medical care I've ever had: No co-pays (except for $8/mo per prescription for medications treating non-service related problems), 40 minute visits with my primary care physician (vs. the eight minute rush I was getting with Blue Cross physicians), immediate referrals to specialists, etc...Far from inefficiency and delays, I’m finding that the VA is very good about preventative care: If there is a problem, they want to deal with it before it gets worse. That is good for the patient and good for long-term costs. I had not had a physical in five years or so before getting into the VA system, so I've been doing a lot of blood work, vaccines, x-rays for my injuries (that have been killing me), etc...So far my experience has been that VA healthcare, unlike private insurance, is actually meant to provide...quality healthcare. Bizarre concept and a clear case of socialism (and, according the far right, un-Americanism).

I had Blue Cross. I was paying over $900.00/mo for my family, a little over half of that just for me, and nothing seemed covered. Simple common sense things, like physicals, fell outside of the coverage I had, and that resulted in thousands in out-of-pocket costs every year before we finally quit going for all but the worst problems. It was a fucking joke. I could no longer afford to pay, so I dropped myself and kept my wife and kids on. Luckily I checked with the VA. I feel like an ass for not doing it sooner.

If you're a vet, check with the VA. There are different levels of coverage and, again, I'm not sure what the criteria are, but check it out.

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Insurance Lobby Too Big To Fail
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Aug 27, 2009 3:16 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The insurance industry has their hands up bums on both sides of the aisle so how do you figure anything will change?

They hold all the cards. How could they fail to push the public option off the table? They don't even have to be subtle about it.

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All I know is I can't git PT after back surgery with my HMO
Posted by: DaBear on Aug 27, 2009 3:45 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But guys in Vansterdam, BC can git a doc, an MRI, xrays, hi-tech surgery and PT all in the span of a month or two... while I pay 500 times as much as them and spend six months doing almost all of that ('cept PT because I can't get that with my "private healthcare").

And then some dipshit rich guy with government healthcare tells me I can't have what he has?!

Jeebus, what a clusterfuck.

1789, baby. 17-fuckin'-89.

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Still more straw men
Posted by: james108 on Aug 27, 2009 4:36 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is Alternet deliberately trying to avoid a serious discussion of bringing health care costs down, in a fiscally responsible way?

The jokers you paint who say keep government away from health care but don't "touch my medicare" aren't the majority, and I've actually never met anyone like that. It is a serious discussion waiting to happen, to discuss the wasteful run corporate government the democrats try to put up and the need for public bargaining power with the health care industry. Obama took any chance of reason off the table when he made the secret deal (not so secret anymore though) to block legislative ability to bulk negotiate down drug prices or import cheaper drugs from Canada, and refuses to discuss if he made more secret deals against the public interest. Oh yeah, democrats, republicans and the media seem afraid to even ask if he made more deals, or address his lack of credibility so we can decide where to go from here. I want public health care but people seem to have put a con artist in charge I wouldn't trust with a used car lot, so what now?

Demand accountability before signing the next blank check for him, hello!!! There are other choices than blindly backing him against our interests. Where's the rational people asking questions in the holes in his plan, yes, his plan, even though he likes others to take responsibility, to cut half a trillion from medicare and Srs won't notice somehow? I know there are many more people curious about this than the wingnuts the media glorifies and alternet pedistools to tar and feather.

I'm all for single payer, but if Obama has anything to do with it and has as little demands and accountable as he does now from the "so called left" that actually runs the country now, by the way, I'm sure he'll find a way to funnel it back to his bankster backers. That said, I am not backing any vague plan of his that doesn't come close to adding up on the surface. Main street, not wall street my snarf. If he comes up with a good plan, or gets out of the way and disavows his side deals, I know there are plenty of people waiting for the chance to discuss a fiscally conservative public health policy that saves money AND lives.

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Very well done article, Mr. Holland.
Posted by: zigy on Aug 27, 2009 4:47 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think you have definitive explained the mentality of the subject people. The linguist at U.C. Berkeley, Dr. George Lakoff has written some excellent books that have gone a step further than Adorno et.al. in explaining how and why liberals and conservatives frame issues very differently; they have fundamentally different world views and it may be that their brains function is (subtly) different ways. Dr. Lakoff very aptly explains how a liberal can speak to someone of a conservative mind-set without offending them.

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» RE: Josh has let us and himself down Posted by: Joshua Holland

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As the nations biggest population, we have paid into the system all our working lives
Posted by: cori on Aug 27, 2009 6:12 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Baby Boomers have been paying into Medicare, Social Security and medicade all our working lives. These are safety nets we all depend on and have paid for.

Why pay taxes and have a government that lets us die in the gutter while our tax dollars go to wars, the rich and special interests?

I have a friend who just got back from Sweden. She said they are doing fine there. People have medical care, housing, jobs and are living comfortable lives and apparently Canadians are doing well also. They aren't suffering from exploding poverty, crumbling cities, ten's of millions without health care and empty food banks. These governments care more about their people and are making sure that their tax dollars are going to them while our people are being eaten alive. Unless we fight, special interests will use economic terrorism to continue to hold use in bondage.

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"Authoritarian Personality" Analysis Is No Help in Countering the Right Wing on Health Care
Posted by: jlandy on Aug 27, 2009 7:58 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dr. Laura Boylan and I wrote the piece below as an attempt to explain and help to counter the right wing bullies at town hall meetings around the country. IMHO it is a much more valuable analysis than trotting out shopworn catchphrases like "authoritarian personalilty" to explain what is going on; we try to talk about the deep vulnerability of the mainstream Democratic proposals to rightwing demagogery.

In a reasoned debate, single payer will come out on top

by Laura S. Boylan, MD and Joanne Landy, MPH
PNHP Blog - Physicians for a National Health Program

One can only feel sorrow and dismay at the bullying and hate-mongering that is taking place at health care forums around the country.

Massive job losses, the devaluation and foreclosures of people's homes, and precipitous declines in lifetime savings produce widespread fears of further loss. In an era of insecurity, mainstream Democratic Party proposals for reforming the health system have played into such fears.

A health care "reform" that protects private insurers and massive profits for the pharmaceutical industry inevitably becomes an ugly game where ordinary people's interests are pitted against each other. Witness, for example, the proposed cuts to Medicaid and Medicare to fund an initiative that subsidizes the mandated purchase of private insurance with taxpayer dollars. Relatively little is offered to the already insured majority who are told of upcoming belt-tightening.

The near-total exclusion of single payer from the health care debate by our political leaders and the media has contributed to the present state of affairs.

Single payer is an expanded and improved Medicare for All ("Medicare 2.0"). Many, perhaps most, Americans have come to believe in the false choice between universal coverage and quality health care.

Our nation needs a meaningful dialogue, including a fair hearing of the views of the 20 million
constituents of the Leadership Conference on Guaranteed Health Care (of which Physicians for a National Health Program is a founding member), who advocate for single-payer national health insurance. Polls show that most of the public and their physicians favor such an approach.

There is simply no other viable solution to the problems facing us all, insured and uninsured. With Medicare 2.0, the already insured would benefit from radically reduced out-of-pocket costs for comprehensive insurance and expanded choice of doctors and hospitals. Medicare 2.0 stays with you for life, independent of your employment. The epidemic of medical bankruptcies
would be just a bad memory.

It is unnecessary to pit the insured against the uninsured, or those with Medicare and Medicaid against those with private insurance.

Multi-payer, for-profit health insurance adds cost but not value to American health care. Savings of $400 billion a year can be obtained through the conversion to a single-payer system. With the money we are now spending (twice as much per capita as other developed nations), we can provide full service "what you need,when you need it" health care for everyone and control costs going forward.

With the "everybody in, nobody out" approach of a Medicare 2.0 system, we can all get more freedom, choice and security.

Single-payer advocates have been excluded from debate not because our premises or facts are wrong but because special interests, including the private health insurance industry and the big drug companies, have been allowed to define the limits of "politically feasible."

article continued at www.pnhp.org, search for "bullies at town hall meetings"

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This One You Won't Believe
Posted by: Lilly on Aug 28, 2009 10:09 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Friday night 8-28: go to townhall.com to see an article saying that the GOP has sent out a fundraising letter suggesting that if a health care bill is passed, Democrats are going to withhold medical care from Republicans.

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» RE: Damn Posted by: desidid
» RE: Damn Posted by: Beck

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At this very moment...
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford on Aug 28, 2009 10:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A secessionist group in Texas is working towards a petition to vote on Texas seceding from the union.

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/28/texas-tenthers-rally/

Being that Texas is host to a vast bastion of conservatives (despite the liberals who live there), perhaps it's time to cut the cord. Perhaps we should let them and every other red state secede. Let the entire world see just how stupid conservatives really are.

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» RE: At this very moment... Posted by: maxfrisson

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darksnark
Posted by: sfield1 on Aug 30, 2009 4:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Angry protesters who yell slogans like "stop the government takeover of Medicare" are living proof that one does not have to be informed to be angry. Such people are exactly the sort that Lenin once called "useful idiots"!

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And how could these people
Posted by: teon6 on Sep 19, 2009 2:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How sane could be a polity that sits by with relative complacence when its leaders launch devastating and groundless invasions of foreign lands but approach a full-on rebellion when those leaders make some modest moves to deliver decent health care at a price people can afford?

And how could these people be so divorced from the dynamics of their own health the vampire diaries subtitles the vampire diaries season 1 electronic ballast 14 watt compact fluorescent electronic ballast millivoltmeter audio millivoltmeter seropol5 care that they don't appear to understand that the Medicare they value so highly is very much a government-run health care program?

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