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MSNBC / By Rachel Maddow and Frank Rich
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Rachel Maddow: The Growing Threat Posed by Gun-Strapped Right-Wingers at Obama's Townhalls

Rachel Maddow and Frank Rich discuss the use of intimidation as a political tactic.
August 24, 2009  |  
 
 
 
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When President Obama spoke to the Veterans of Foreign Wars Convention in Phoenix on Monday, you‘ll recall that he was greeted by a dozen or so regular citizens, not police officers, not Secret Service officers, who were openly carrying firearms.

It‘s now been revealed that a right-wing online radio host organized the "people with guns near the president” stunt, including the man who‘s carrying an assault rifle who we pictured and talked about on this show.

But the second important update about this story is about the "not just metaphorical ties” between the open display of weaponry by protestors against the president -- in other words, the use of intimidation as a political tactic -- and the political violence in our own country‘s history, even our own country‘s recent history.  We‘re now learning about actual, direct links between the gun stunt this week at President Obama‘s event in Arizona and a militia group that was convicted in the 1990s of conspiring to blow up federal buildings.

Ernest Hancock, the right-wing online radio host who carried a .9 millimeter pistol himself at the Phoenix protest and who interviewed the other people who were carrying guns -- he used to work for a group that defended a violent militia group called the Vipers.  It was a group that called themselves the Viper Reserves and they formed to defend the Viper Militia.

The Viper Militia said they were opposed to what they called the "new world order.”  They practiced advanced weapons training, including exploding rockets and making fertilizer bombs in a desert town about a hundred miles from the one-time home of Timothy McVeigh.  Twelve members of the Viper Militia were charged in 1996 with plotting to blow up at least seven government buildings.

Federal agents seized as evidence dozens of firearms, including machine guns, tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition, grenades, body armor, gas masks and hundreds of pounds of ammonium nitrate which, of course, is the main ingredient used in the bomb that blew up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people.  In the end, 11 of the Viper Militiamen were sentenced to federal prison terms, ranging from one year to six years.

In a phone interview today with this show, Mr. Hancock, who again was not part of the group but who defended them, he describes himself as having done P.R. for the group, he called the sentences for the Viper Militiamen, quote, "an injustice like you wouldn‘t believe.”  He also -- in his interview with our staff -- did not deny any of the ties he -- the ties he‘s alleged to have with the Viper Militia.  When we asked him about convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, Mr. Hancock told us, quote, "I don‘t know which role he played.  I know he got blamed.”

So, when a dozen people openly display firearms near the president -- again, not police officers, not Secret Service officers, but citizens, and they‘re organized by someone with this kind of backgrounds, what‘s the next thing that we talk about in our political discussion in this country?

Joining us now is "New York Times” columnist Frank Rich.  His most recent piece on Sunday gives some historical context to the gun-toting protestors that are showing up at these town hall events.

Mr. Rich, nice to see you.

FRANK RICH, NEW YORK TIMES COLUMNIST:  Nice to see you.

MADDOW:  In your column this weekend, you talked about similarities between the political climate today and the political climate in the early ‘60s -- of course, with looming large in that political climate the assassination of John Kennedy in 1963.


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These States Gun Laws Would Change Overnight
[Report this comment]
Posted by: desidid on Aug 24, 2009 12:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if the New Black Panthers began showing up at these town hall meetings strapped and loaded for bear. Americans would wake up rather quickly to what the future could hold, and they would not like it. They would clammer for assault rifle bans and for keeping your weapons at home. Much like California did after the old Black Panthers surrounded the California legislature.

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» "I and Love and You" Posted by: foreverhope

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Hypocracy
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Posted by: Mathew Trisencusean on Aug 24, 2009 12:51 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why does political intimidation taste different when its in your own neighbourhood?
What part of America's foriegn policy in the last 60 years has'nt been based on intimidation of one sort or another?
I say suffer in your jocks America.
You reap what you sow.

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» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: MT512
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: Mathew Trisencusean
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: MT512
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: MT512
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: Mathew Trisencusean
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: MT512
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: mkdelta69
» RE: Hypocracy Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» Hippahkrasea Posted by: Beck
» RE: Hippahkrasea Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: Hippahkrasea Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Hippahkrasea Posted by: Walks-in-Storms

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Union guys are a lot scarier
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Posted by: LillianB on Aug 24, 2009 1:50 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The townhall videos I've seen have there are big burly guys in blue and red tee shirts pushing 60 somethings around. In one townhall some citizens were turned away as the union members allowed only other union members to pass. And of course the black conservative being beat up and hospitalized by an over zealous blue shirt foot soldier. Is this a National Civilian force Obama is organizing to discourage the voice of the people?

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» RE: Union guys are a lot scarier Posted by: BobPomeroy
» RE: Union guys are a lot scarier Posted by: surfreality
» links to vids of those townhalls, pls Posted by: hurricane hugo

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New World Order
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Posted by: devasious on Aug 24, 2009 2:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
read the book , i did and its all there black and white print. i was astonished at what i read and its happening right now as we speak and read this article

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» RE: New World Order Posted by: BitcoDavid
» RE: New World Order Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: New World Order Posted by: MT512
» RE: New World Order Posted by: Morell

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The left and right are going to fight
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Aug 24, 2009 3:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America has been in a state of undeclared civil war ever since the Republicans stole the 2000 Presidential election.

Stealing an election is not a dirty trick. It is an act of war. Once they have taken your vote they have made you a slave.

I disapprove of violence, but I'm quite sure the left and right are going to fight.

Not to worry. Sure, the other side will cheat. But it'll be a minority of aging white males versus the rest of the country.

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» RE: The left and right are going to fight Posted by: Mathew Trisencusean
» RE: The left and right are going to fight Posted by: Mathew Trisencusean
» What? Are you retarded? Posted by: rafaeltoral

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Wow, I find this so very sad....not news, but sad
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Razional Thinker on Aug 24, 2009 3:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the writing is practically on the wall and some of the news media and the republican party and many of the disgruntled posters do not give a damn...inflame and insinuate is their game...and trust me it is a game because if it weren't, they would give true facts when they doubted something but instead they provide incendiary speculation. Damn shame!! Where has our sense of the US ability to factually debate an issue without creating a toxic atmosphere gone? Me thinks all this unnecessary ugliness is a regrab/undermining attempt by the republican party and a ratings grab by the media so they can charge more for advertising space. Wow, the US is ruled by greed....even, when our president's life could be on the line> SICKENING!!!

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Small Correction
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Posted by: Emily on Aug 24, 2009 3:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the 60s it was the John Birch Society - not the John Burke's Society. They're still around, by the way.

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» RE: Small Correction Posted by: colinmeister
» RE: Small Correction Posted by: MT512
» RE: Small Correction Posted by: marykane
» RE: Small Correction Posted by: Lilly

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".9 millimeter pistol"
[Report this comment]
Posted by: tjg1984 on Aug 24, 2009 4:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where can you get one of these?

If you're wondering why I pointed this out, .9 millimeters is only a little bit larger than standard mechanical pencil lead. Use common sense when writing about guns.

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» RE: ".9 millimeter pistol" Posted by: mainspark
» RE: ".9 millimeter pistol" Posted by: praedor
» We need bigger guns than that. Posted by: Chris Kaufmann
» RE: ".9 millimeter pistol" Posted by: Gentle Axeman

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Ensign anecdote says it all
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Posted by: taxidriver on Aug 24, 2009 4:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ensign says he did nothing "legally wrong" in having an adulterous affair, paying off his lover, and providing a job to a family member.

The gun owners say they're exercising their legal right to carry firearms.

What about morality? Is it moral to sleep with a staff member and pay her hush money?

What about ethics? Is it sensible to carry guns to a political function? Is it right to be seen as possibly posing a threat to our highest elected leader?

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They're easy to spot compared to the Obama PR cultists who troll the progressive sites and
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Benn_Miller on Aug 24, 2009 5:17 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
disrupt and distract. At least with gun-strapped rightwingers, you can spot them a mile away while the Obama cultists will stab you in the back unexpectedly. Hence the surprises? I can't be surprised.

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American as Apple Pie
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Posted by: snowhound on Aug 24, 2009 5:24 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects a right to keep and bear arms from infringement by the federal government.

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» RE: American as Apple Pie Posted by: praedor
» RE: American as Apple Pie Posted by: lupuslefou
» RE: American as Apple Pie Posted by: Lurker
» RE: American as Apple Pie Posted by: clthompson
» RE: American as Apple Pie Posted by: lupuslefou
» Good Quote, except... Posted by: djnoll
» RE: Good Quote, except... Posted by: snowhound
» RE: American as Apple Pie Posted by: Morell

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Opportunities
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Posted by: progressive-life on Aug 24, 2009 5:29 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems there are always nuts with an agenda willing to jump onto any opportunity. There is no doubt that the rage demonstrated at Town Halls is genuine, for a number of ligit reasons.

These people should also protest the use of intimidation and violence at these meetings to differentiate themselves from left wing protesters who always seem to use such tactics.

It always amazed me that our AG dropped the charges against Black Panthers dressed in military fatigues armed with clubs standing near voting booths in Phily.

Wonder why Maddow or that nut Olbermann hasn't expressed outrage for this. I also wonder why Obama had the charges dropped!

"Minister Najee Muhammad, national field marshal for the New Black Panther Party, and Uhuru Shakur, local chairman of the Atlanta chapter of the party, took turns reading statements from Dr. Malik Shabazz, leader of Black Lawyers for Justice and attorney for the party (yes, that Malik Shabazz)…
…”We will not allow some racists and other angry whites, who are upset over an impending Barack Obama presidential victory, to intimidate blacks at the polls,” Muhammad said. “Most certainly, we cannot allow these racist forces to slaughter our babies or commit other acts of violence against the black population, nor our black president.”
Muhammad added, “We must organize to counter and neutralize these threats using all means at our disposal. This is a great time for our people, and we must ensure that peace prevails for our people.”"

AND

The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights is demanding that the Justice Department explain why it recently dismissed a civil complaint against members of the New Black Panther Party who disrupted a Philadelphia polling place during last year’s election, saying the department has offered only “weak justifications.”

Commission Chairman Gerald A. Reynolds, a former deputy associate attorney general under President George W. Bush, said he fears the legal precedent set by the department in its May decision to drop the case might encourage “other hate groups” to act similarly at polling locations in the future.

Mr. Reynolds also charged that other groups might not have been treated so leniently.

“If you swap out the New Black Panther Party in this case for neo-Nazi groups or the Ku Klux Klan, you likely would have had a different outcome,” he told The Washington Times in a telephone interview Monday.



So seems certain hate groups are ok. especially if they support the President and AG.

THAT is the outrage that we should be expressing!

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» RE: SPEAKING OF TROLLS.... Posted by: Carol Burns
» RE: Parrots may be beyond rage Posted by: guns4everyone
» RE: Opportunities Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Opportunities Posted by: progressiveview
» You are a rascist madam Posted by: Don't Panic
» RE: You are an idiot Posted by: desidid
» RE: Sorry Posted by: desidid

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second amendment rights
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Posted by: sherry on Aug 24, 2009 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For years we have not been allowed to carry signs on sticks at protests. But if we could get our sticks registered as weapons, we'd be okay? Now that I think of it, did anyone check to see if the rifles, etc. were registered? Maybe all we have to do is fashion poster sticks that look like rifles.

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MJ
[Report this comment]
Posted by: mijoh on Aug 24, 2009 6:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll tell you what. These reichwing fools don't realize that thay are not the only ones with guns. Because of their perverting of the second amendment, us lefties have guns too. Make note of it.

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» RE: MJ Posted by: kungfuma

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It's probably just going to get worse
[Report this comment]
Posted by: MT512 on Aug 24, 2009 6:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whenever the conservatives lose the presidency, no matter who is in office, they will always see him as an extreme-left radical liberal on steroids. Since they live waaaaay over on the right with Mussolini and Hitler, anyone to the left of them is a scary radical leftist communist socialist Marxist.

Bill Clinton, who at his "leftest" was still the center's famous champion, was painted as a fringe leftist and as this article mentions, there was a huge rise in militia-like anti-government activity.

I think the Republican leaders are such incredibly sore losers that when the President is a Democrat, they encourage the idiotic lies that all the chest-beating simians soak up like sponges, namely, THEY'RE GONNA TAKE MAH GUNS!

So we see the same thing happening, but more boldly, with President Obama. Not only is he a hated non-Republican, but he's also "black," thus tapping in even more to the vein or racism that underlies so much of this. (Yes, there was one gun-totin' black guy, whoopee.)

As the right becomes more desperate, they will tear everything down in their attempts to regain power, thereby making everyone more desperate. They would rather poison the national well than have their political enemies drink from it.

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» You're absolutely right. Posted by: GuitarBill
» but... Posted by: Drclaw
» We'll see, won't we. Posted by: GuitarBill
» agreed Posted by: Drclaw
» ROTFLMAO! %^) Posted by: GuitarBill

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It worked for the Nazi Brownshirts
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Aug 24, 2009 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Watching with disbelief the intimidation and shrieking rhetoric of these right-wingers at the health care meetings, I am struck by one thought: it worked for Nazis back in 1932.

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» RE: Because we all know... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: WFT Posted by: desidid
» RE: WFT should have been Posted by: desidid

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Reminds Me of a Story ...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: madmac10 on Aug 24, 2009 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... A passage from Les Miserables. Hugo describes two cliques that promenade through Paris: one wearing short-brimmed hats to signify their support of French Imperialist adventures in Latin America; another wearing wide-brimmed hats to symbolize their support for the local insurgency. Both groups roundly repudiate the acts of horrific violence perpetrated by their adversaries, awhile downplaying the horrific violence perpetrated by their side.

Put on your hats, people. No matter how wide the brim, I am sure it will shade your eyes from the atrocities committed in the name of your band in the spectrum.

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What a load
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Posted by: FreeAmerica on Aug 24, 2009 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is a load of fear baiting crap.

The SS would never let armed citizens near ANY president or prez candidate. NO way, no how.

As one poster pointed out, the guns at town hall meetings thing came after obama's bussed in union thugs started beating people up. No one got shot, but the obama nazi shock troops probably stopped their physical attacks. We were outgunned and couldn't practice our disruption and thuggery. Waaaaa. Momeeeeeeee!

As far as race hate, a black hate monger-racist named McGee tried that in Milwaukee, threatening to shoot whites passing through the 'hood on the freeway at random. He was promptly introduced to the fact that there were 500,000 deer hunters with high powered rifles in the state, most of them not from the 'hood or big fans of it.He decided he didn't want to start a race war with people that can regularly shoot the bottom out of a coffee cup 1/2 mile away when all that he had were some dinky $35 .25 cal ghetto pop guns.

You will find that armed militias pop up when dems are in power. Generally it is because of the democrat's endless attacks on the constitution (like this one). If they actually read it and gave it some reverence, it probably wouldn't be the case. Some people will actually take up arm to defend their country from despots and tyrants like klinton or the Hitler wannabe named obama.

What these two uneducated haters don't realize
is that the second amendment is right under the first, the one that empowers these people to bloviate their lies and spew their hate. Why is it that they think that the first is absolute, but the second means nothing?

One last question, were they talking about John Ensign or John Edwards? Did Ensign go and diddle his mistress while his wife was terminal with cancer? If you take off the partisan blinders, you might find that they are both cheating assholes.

This article was a typical one sided hate spewing basket of lies from two of the most ignorant liberal jerks on the planet. Everyone Dean-scream.. Yeaaaaaaaaa!

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» Twist and Turn Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: What a load Posted by: MT512
» Obama vs Gingrich Posted by: Chris Kaufmann
» RE: Obama vs Gingrich Posted by: MT512
» "one sided hate spewing basket of lies" Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: What a load Posted by: johnthetreehugger
» RE: What a load Posted by: djnoll
» RE: What a load Posted by: Morell
» RE: What a load Posted by: untameable

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Maddow's muddled mind matters not to many
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Posted by: CalKid on Aug 24, 2009 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ms. Maddow's remark "...I worry about and wonder about what citizens who aren‘t law enforcement officers, who aren‘t directly responsible for keeping other people safe,.." shows her ignorance about self-defense, and self-reliance.

The US Supreme Court in at least 10 cases has held that police have no duty to protect an indvidual, but instead, have a duty to protect society as a whole.

It doesn't matter if one has a protective order, the police are not reponsible for that person's safety.

It doesn't matter that NY City prohibits self-protection with arms, the government will not protect you.

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Ms. Maddow, meet Mr. Chris Hedges
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Posted by: blondesprite on Aug 24, 2009 6:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I ran across a speech given by Mr. Hedges about why war gives us meaning. Warning, it is an hour long. It will read, or sound like dark poetry, sad and graphic, but oh so compelling!

If you listen, it will explain so much about why we struggle, why we fight, why we are so addicted to violence or our individual and collective, with all their glittering trappings, causes.

You might also enjoy a new book by Mr.Richard Feldman, titled: Ricochet: Confessions of a Gun Lobbyist.

After twenty years(one wonders why it took so long) Mr. Feldman realized the NRA could care less about the second amendment. Their agenda is more about recruitment and donations, than about protecting our civil rights.

Ms. Maddow, truth is a double edged sword, it cuts both ways.

Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2SaM8RJ30c&NR=1

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Perhaps the militias are aware of the creeping fascism that's permeating our gov't, and they wish to
[Report this comment]
Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Aug 24, 2009 6:59 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
hold their ground against it with peaceful display of the 2nd Amendment???

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» Blank Minds Posted by: Aimleft
» Good point. Posted by: GuitarBill

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Repub's are hypocrites/2face/liars
[Report this comment]
Posted by: mchllecat on Aug 24, 2009 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Repub's are doing everything in their power to fight the election that they already lost,Imagine Bush era where b4 you could go to any event Bush attended and sign a waiver that you promise no matter what not to look wrong at Pres.,My Grandma was waiting outside on a bench she always sat at in her town,Bush came to town and she was tolsd no more sitting here,Bush feels threatened,But these LOONEY REPUG"s wear guns,praying to God they get hassled just so they can scream my rights,my rights as a gun owner are being hampered,whatever,But what do we truely expect from the Boss Hog Rush Limbaugh party
GOP = Gone Off Planet

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Constitution
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Posted by: bperk on Aug 24, 2009 7:21 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To put it simply, ever hear of the Second Ammendment? I know it's an ongoing fight, but it is still the law. If the State Law allows it, then you are the paranoid ones.

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» RE: Constitution Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Constitution Posted by: Morell

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Bill Ayers =big booms
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Posted by: donnal on Aug 24, 2009 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bill Ayers in his youth used bombing as his message delivery, and is he not a friend of the Presdient?

MSNBC does not tell you that several of those with firearms were men of color. Perhaps those who carry firearms where sending their message to SEIU and ACORN who have arrived at town halls in buses that they are not going to be intimated.

The President has no one but himself to blame for the armed persons at his "grassroots town halls".

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» RE: Bill Ayers =big booms Posted by: MT512

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Treason and Heresy slung over their shoulder
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Aug 24, 2009 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FYI Christ did not command 'Armies' when spreading the Word. He did not enlist 'Soldiers' either.That was the Romans. In fact he even defeats Satan in the 'Final Battle' with nothing more than 'The Word'.It is Satan who requires the Armed forces, not Christ-once again
And lets be honest, these gunslingers aren't sending a message to our foreign enemies, it's a threat specifically aimed at the rest of US citizens.
'The Tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrannts and Patriots' is a call for a Civil War. They are declaring War against US, not 'Islamic Terrorists' at these Rallies.
They would rather Kill and die protecting their weaponry than this Union and it's citizens. TX and AK are talking about taking up arms and declaring their independence, because they 'Love this Country'?? A 2nd Amdendmenter is willing to shoot a fellow citizen to protect and defend a gun? Where then does their words and actions indicate their allegience lies? Not with a United Country but with Personal power over all other citizens, even to the determinent of other citizens and the Union itself.
'Democracy at the end of a Gun is not a Democracy',and the Same can be said about Christianity.
That Assault rifle over your Shoulder, or the pea shooter strapped to your leg,speaks volumes about your Treasonous ideas and Heretical doctrine.You are niether Patriot or Christian.

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Conservatives seem more and more like a weird pyramid scheme
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Beck on Aug 24, 2009 7:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many at the bottom, bitching and grousing about everything being the fault of liberals and unions and teachers and unions and atheists and unions and unions and Democrats and teachers (is ANYTHING ever your fault?) but otherwise doing nothing but sending lots of forwards about how nothing is their fault. As you go higher, you see those heading smaller organizations, and larger, and holding office, and finally those on TV and in radio, but what is worrisome is that top of the pyramid, that unknown, slighted-feeling guy with a gun, angry, unnoticed, willing to be the one at the top for a brief second, who pulls the trigger.

Then just watch those below him scatter and refuse to claim responsibility or acknowledge participation in the scheme as a whole, after they jubilate in private, of course.

Maybe I'm naive. Maybe the jubilation would be quite public.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.

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Interrogating Hate Suspects
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Posted by: melpol on Aug 24, 2009 8:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Setting up special units to interrogate suspects that are suspected of being a danger to the nation is an idea that was long overdo. It will be in the hands of the justice department not the CIA. Those units should be placed in big cities and small towns. Hate groups will be targeted. It is estimated that there are over one million radicals spewing hate. They must be interrogated and forced to name their accomplices. It will eliminate the biggest danger to the nation since the Hollywood communists.

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Why did MSNBC crop the picture of the guy with the assault rifle?
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Posted by: pg on Aug 24, 2009 8:07 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because he was BLACK!

And his being BLACK did not fit their white racism against our President story line!

MSNBC has no credibility and they are spreading sick propaganda!

Here is a picture of the filthy racist.

racist

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» No, here's what you wrote: Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Cling To That Image Posted by: desidid

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What is starkly true is that guns need to be outlawed in certain places, and especially
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Posted by: avidAmerican on Aug 24, 2009 8:08 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
at locations where the U.S. President is holding a meeting. We cannot trust the gun morons to police themselves and to show enough respect to have such loose laws for guns. Guns in their hands is a dangerous situation for all around them. 2nd Amendment rights do not give them the right to carry guns a Presidential events. They are just twisting the laws to suit their own deadly agendas. We have guns too, but would never carry them to a public event of any kind. We have more respect for guns than that.

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They Want One-Party Rule
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Posted by: Lilly on Aug 24, 2009 8:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a recidivistic participant on conservative websites, I conclude that the right wing does not want a two-party political system.

I am old enough to remember the last thirteen US presidents. Until 1980, life continued just about the same whether Ford or Kennedy or Eisenhower or Carter was in office. Yes, we had the odd occasional war but, here at home, on a day-to-day basis, and in spite of the protests of the 1960's, we did not have an underground rumbling warning that war was about to break out among citizens. And I do not recall determination on either side to prevent governance by the party one had not voted for. I did not hear of private financing of an effort to trump up reason to impeach a sitting president, as was the case when Scaife bankrolled the Arkansas Project to "get" Clinton.

Now, even casual reading of posts to conservative townhall.com shows us right-wing determination to shut down the Obama presidency. "Demon-crap" legislation is to be aborted or crippled Reputations are to be savaged. Lies are to be broadcast. Meetings are to be shouted down. Conspiracies, no matter how bizarre, are to be devoured, swallowed, gulped down. Any government but Republican is to be sabotaged.

The line between intimidation and violence begins to look blurry. Posters brag about the size of their private arsenals and magazines. The Tree of Liberty is promised a good watering with the blood of tyrants. "Let them come...I am ready for them" is explicitly stated.

The racist undertone is always present and is wedded to the sense of danger. Last week a TH poster said that Obama intends to destroy "the America we know" so he could put Black Militants in charge (and since these imagined folks receive the full force of racist white projected hate, they will be extremely dangerous leaders for white people). Obama is named The Mulatto Messiah; his wife, Aunt Jemima. Obama is associated with urban problems; he is called a gang member, a street thug, a slum overlord. When gun advocates showed up at at an Obama speech last week, a townhall regular tried to establish a new rumor that the gun-bearers were, in fact, "Obama's thugs". And, of course, Obama is building concentration camps and training a private army.

With such dangers looming, it is only patriotic to stockpile ammunition and prepare for war. Violence will be an act of patriotism (isn't that a definition of terrorism?). Meanwhile Beck and Hannity and Limbaugh convince Americans that the greatest danger in their lives is the Obama government and foment not only resentment, rage, and fear but a sense of resolution: "we can and must do something to stop this".

Another townhall regular has posted his dream of invading Washington DC, arresting all the politicians and government employees, trying them for treason in military tribunals (the Judiciary having been done away with), and executing them. Half a dozen others write detailed plans to kill all Democrats, all liberals. Many more just mention the need to extinguish liberal politics once and for all. A final solution.

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» Re: They Want One-Party Rule Posted by: Chris Kaufmann
» Oh. My. God. Posted by: Aimleft

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The price of freedom
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Posted by: solrev on Aug 24, 2009 8:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It amazed me to hear congressmen say that law abiding citizens have a right to carry guns around the president. The redneck, who shot and killed the guard at the Holocaust Memorial Museum, was a law abiding citizen right up to the point when he became a murderer.

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» RE: The price of freedom Posted by: tjg1984

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Loose Nuts
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Posted by: cashelboylo on Aug 24, 2009 8:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitler’s financiers provided free beer for anybody who would attend a Nazi Party Beer Hall Rally but tolerated no opposition or even discussion. Nazi Stormtroopers severely beat any dissenters.
In the 1923 “Munich Beer Hall Putsch” Hitler stormed an opponent’s rally with 600 SA Stormtroopers, set up a machinegun aimed at the exit doors, fired a shot and declared the Munich and Berlin governments deposed.
The Munich Putsch failed, but Hitler held to the free beer, thuggery and guns tactic, by 1933 it succeeded and the whole world paid the price.
As the Weird Rightist Cultists further unravel, we may see some similar tactical development at meetings.
Maybe even a Palin Putsch.

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Just as Thomas Jefferson averred . . .
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Aug 24, 2009 8:44 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just as Thomas Jefferson averred that a little rebellion from time to time is good, it may be very well that people like Rachel Maddow are "threatened" by "John Q. Citizen" with a gun.

"If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one opinion than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind." J.S. Mill.

I have asked elsewhere here (let's hope I don't again provoke diatribe similar to that instance) how it is that society believes it has the right by mere rule of the majority to commit morally outrageous assault on the individual and escape unscathed. However the Rachel Maddows characterize it, the citizens in question here may just as well be saying "Don't Tread on Me."

While our most recent Supreme Court appointee says she doesn't know what the basic rights of a citizen are, I do. They are contained in our Constitution and its historically famed Bill of Rights. They are written very plainly, and while liberalism may demand its supposed right to equivocate, they are plain enough for the people Ms. Maddow decries to know.

Let us not equivocate. Let us understand that basic human rights are not only very easily recognized and understood, they are morally inviolable, they include the most basic of all rights, the right to defend one's life - "defend" meaning fight to keep it.

You SHOULD feel "threatened," Ms. Madden - you threaten me. It was only a few years ago that your kind of politics set the stage for the blizzard of feminist-inspired drumhead trials that sent hundreds, even thousands, of innocent men to long prison terms for rape and other crimes they of which they were not guilty. And for you and your vicious ilk to threaten by power of political pressure-group pimped-for and prostituted-for legislation, is no more moral than for me to threaten with my gun.

Interesting, isn't it? - that this essay appears on the same site as that crowing concerning how a radio talkshow host was driven from the air by his liberal enemies?

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» RE: Hmmmmm.... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Hmmmmm.... Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: Usually... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Usually... Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: But since... Posted by: Cybershaman

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Some thoughts (and maybe even a few facts)
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Posted by: willymack on Aug 24, 2009 8:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The neocons and their rethug stooges couldn't rig the 2008 election. Obama was too popular and had built up too much momentum for that.
Plan "B" was implemented right after Obama's inauguration, and is aimed at destroying his presidency by any and all means available. This is in some ways, similar to their efforts to discredit and destroy Clinton.
A real plus on the side of the neocons is that there are so many Americans running about with so many unresolved conflicts in their heads, histrionic, ignorant, and as malleable as play dough. A good example of this is the emotional fools at "town hall" Meetings. They're so full of anger and bullshit, they don't even know what they're takling about.
The neocons and rethugs are expert at repeating outrageous lies and distorted facts, easily overcoming any skepticism among those to whom critical thinking is absent.
They play on ignorance, emotion, and fear of change to keep the status quo going, much in the same manner as rabble-rousers at a religious "revival". They channel ill-defined emotion into a destructive force, suited to their purposes.
They would OWN us and have us as their slaves, because they're CRAZY with greed and lust for power. If they're not stopped, we're ALL up the creek without a paddle.

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The Night They Smashed La Prensa
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Posted by: Lilly on Aug 24, 2009 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have posted this before, and now I am going to post it again. When I was a girl my father's job took us to Argentina, where I was eyewitness to the night Peron's goons, after smashing the printing presses of La Prensa, the only newspaper to speak out against the dictator, rioted all night beneath our apartment balcony. They commandeered trams, threw off the passengers, and helled around downtown Buenos Aires waving flaming torches (real fire) and screaming "Peron! Peron! Peron!". Subsequently a law was passed making it an act of treason to criticize Peron; persons who did so were arrested on the street and not heard from again.

You cannot imagine the effect this had on an American child raised on the US Bill of Rights. The lesson I took from my experience was that there are indeed people in the world who will gladly use force to silence political opposition, and now I see those same people working hard to silence liberal thought in this country.

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» RE: The Night They Smashed La Prensa Posted by: celticwriter
» RE: The Night They Smashed La Prensa Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: The Night They Smashed La Prensa Posted by: Walks-in-Storms

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shoot down ideas you don't like
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Posted by: celticwriter on Aug 24, 2009 9:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
American citizens attending Obama’s town hall meetings on health care armed with
assault weapons and live ammunition as a statement of personal freedom is not only chilling, it makes the US the laughing stock of the rest of the developed world and large segments of the undeveloped world who already know too well what those weapons can do. I literally shake my head in disbelief. We are running out of earth and resources and these bozos think all they have to do is fire at philosophical Boogey Men and their troubles will disappear.

I was about to say that America doesn’t need another American Revolution, it needs a French Revolution but truth and justice can’t trust the citizenry to know who the real enemies are, which leads me to a consideration of Moore’s Paradox…to wit:

G. E. Moore remarked once in a lecture on the absurdity involved in saying something like "It's raining outside but I don't believe that it is." This paradox, sometimes known as Moore's paradox, might well have been forgotten if not for the fact that Ludwig Wittgenstein reportedly considered it Moore's most important contribution to philosophy.

Moore's Paradox forces us to think about such diverse topics as, among other things, the relation between assertion and belief, content and expression, the nature of belief, knowledge and rationality.

Moore's sentences have been used by logicians, computer scientists, and those working in the artificial intelligence community, as examples of cases in which a knowledge, belief or information system is unsuccessful in updating its knowledge/belief/information store in the light of new or novel information.

SPENCE SENSE – the ramifications of this are omnipresent in everything from:
· the world leading but overburdened cybernetical capacity of Cray Computers trying to keep up with paradimic permutations in complex environmental modeling
· to inappropriate decisions in the atavistic life and death game of chance inherent in Predator and Prey and, of course
· to the interminable and suicidal ignorance of large sections of the American population who still believe you can shout or shoot down anything you disagree with
· starting with their own feet.

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» RE: shoot down ideas you don't like Posted by: madisonpaine
» RE: shoot down ideas you don't like Posted by: Walks-in-Storms

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Maddow while correct is only getting at the symptom of the problem.
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Aug 24, 2009 10:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps it would be best if we united and took the time to understand who these militia really are. They are nothing more than ordinary working class citizens who are also the victims of cruel and abusive sellout economic/religious/military policies who feel angry to the core about government and business cashing in on our plight. While I don't approve of what the gun folks doing, I think that Rachel Maddow needs to target the real perpetrators who put them there to begin with, Big Insurance/Pharma and the Washington pols. Obama started out on the totally wrong path of pretending "reform" first by taking single payer off the table and forcing that idea to stay out of public discussion along with his cronies in Congress to assist. Next, Congress and the White House engage in more Dubya/Cheney like closed door meetings with Big Insurance/Pharma to stay as close to status quo and yet try to make the public "feel progress". Big Insurance/Pharma are still hell bent on maximizing their profits even as the version of "public option" favoring Big Insurance isn't enough so they want Obama and Congress to strip it away but they know that a public backlash will follow. Enter the Republicans stepping in and sending the paid Big Insurance/Pharma hecklers to the town hall meetings so that the public will not show their anger towards Washington and Big Insurance/Pharma but instead towards those poor fools who accepted the roles of player hecklers and now militia men. Like everyone else, these poor souls were finding employment tougher to come by and needed someone to bail them out. Certainly, Washington does not bail out poor people so these people turn to anything that will make them "feel good" and possibly pay them enough to barely survive. From here, Big Insurance/Pharma and Washington silently win and laugh their ways to the bank all the while once again keeping the working class divided among themselves. Once again, Main Street is forced to lose.

I did get emails asking me what would have happened if Obama had put single payer first? Simple, Big Insurance/Pharma would show their opposition and Washington's leadership would be put to the real litmus test. Caring for health care for all and putting quality before quantity would have meant keeping a firm grip on single payer. Cowering to the corporate interests like they did would mean governing against the people. It's a complete shame to watch most of the posters here showing their anger towards poor people just because they have guns and yet say very little against the corporate interests and corrupt pols in Washington who pushed them into this madness. This is not liberal, conservative, moderate, or whatever. This is Washington collaborating with the corporate interests and playing us for suckers and in the process engaging in dereliction of their duties to the people who voted them in.

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» Right on the head Jb Posted by: dingham

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Mob Mentality and the Second Amendment
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Posted by: djnoll on Aug 24, 2009 10:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is a well known fact that in a large group gathering, one or two people strategically placed can create a mob response in keeping, not with the general public mindset, but rather with a violent response not in keeping with the general public viewpoint. Best example in history was when Pontius Pilate ask the crowd to choose between Jesus of Nazareth (whom they liked) and Barrabas the Thief and revolutionary. The Pharisees, who were threatened by the sway Jesus held over the crowd, put people in the crowd to cheer for Barrabas and the rest of the crowd followed suit, swept up by the roar of the people next to them.

We see this happening today at town hall meetings where a small group, egged on by the media and those who organized them, drown out the reasoned discussion and create a mob mentality that is quickly turning against a sitting President. Enter the Second Amendment and these same groups of people who want to control the town halls. These modern-day Pharisees (the GOP, FOX, Beck, et al.)have placed with the help of the militias people into the crowd to distract and intimidate people into silence. They create a poisoned atmosphere while hiding behind their twisted view of the 2nd Amendment, where they control the mob mentality. In the end, instead of a public outcry, they create a public silence that is just as deafening to politicians as a public outcry.

What is truly frightening about mob mentality is that it does not take much to lose control of the mob, and perhaps that is what the GOP wants. It will take just one instance of someone being accidentally shot because the shooter overreacted to a car backfire or a firecracker to start a real riot that will harm a lot of people. It will take just one incident of someone shooting back to defend themselves in such a situation to create mass death.

Mob mentality is like that, and like cancer, fed with the right combination of events it will spread like wildfire. Remember South Central LA after Rodney King, or the Watts Riots of the '60s.

People who use the 2nd Amendment as an excuse to carry a loaded weapon to a public event where the President of the United States is speaking are trying to provoke the spark that will tear this country apart. Worse yet, if we continue to ignore the threat they pose, one day the man or woman with the gun will not be a peaceful citizen exercising their rights, but rather the next Lee Harvey Oswald or Squeaky Fromme or John Hinckley, and then the rage of years of pent up anger will be unstoppable on both sides of the arguments. Mob mentality also works like that.

I believe that the 2nd Amendment has a place in the public life of a free nation, but it does not give free license in a free nation to provoke mob violence or to give cover to those who would do so. The 2nd Amendment was written at a time in history where it had meanings that were both practical and necessary.

Today we have a standing military and we do not hunt for our food except by choice or in some cases, necessity. We do not have to defend our homes from invasive troops nor our lands from imminent attack by other nations while our troops are stationed elsewhere. No hunter needs military grade fire-arms and not citizen needs to carry a gun to a public forum to be heard. People who become violent and disruptive at public events are removed, and if they hurt someone they are arrested.

It is time to stop using the 2nd Amendment as an excuse to control the mob mentality, and it is up to us as citizens in a free society to make sure that this happens by demanding that those who carry guns to such forums be removed from them until they leave the guns at home.

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Treason
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Posted by: chirho33 on Aug 24, 2009 10:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is treason, these gun-nuts showing up at a presidential event. If that had been liberals during the Bush era, they would have been shot dead and Cheney would have declared a "victory" in the "war on terror", not to mention the imposition of martial law so the Busheviks could go after "domestic terrorists". Gun control is a dead issue now, thanks to right-wing shout radio, but those gun-nuts are the best argument yet for some kind of gun control. By the way, Mr. Rich, it's the John Birch Society, not the John Burke Society.

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» RE: Treason Posted by: Harpdog

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What a Load Part 2-the crushing of the ankle biters
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Posted by: FreeAmerica on Aug 24, 2009 11:04 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nation destroying treasonists? Where do you get that? I would think that klinton selling missile technology to the chins or obanma trying to run over the constitution by sending organized thugs after citizens might qualify.

Maybe obama's attempt at assembling an army of civilian brownshirts "..as powerful and well funded as the military" might be treason. It is certainly anti-constitutional. Standing up for individual rights is not quite treason, of course unless it goes against the dems.

Yes klinton and obama are uneducated. So is the blathering (havaad educated) al franken. They suckered some other liberals into giving them now meaningless sheepskins, but it does not mean that they are educated.

You might also want to provide a link that proves obama went to school at all, or for that matter, even has a past over 10 years. FActcheck.org is an annenberg/obama site, don't bother posting that propaganda.

It seems that he didn't release any school records at all. Most likely because he is a dumb-ass with worse grades than bush or kerry, and only passed on the wagon of equal opportunity, and was financed by extremist anti-Americans and dealing coke. Prove me wrong.

As long as you are supposedly intellectually superior, quick, without looking, what does Federalist #24 say about this whole town hall thing?

Speaking of people that can't assemble a sentence, ever see obama without his teleprompter? He sputters worse than bush and is dumber than biden.

Beyond your petty ankle biter attacks...

I have lost not only the last election, but at least the last 6. I loathe repugs as much as anyone here, and klinton and obama are fucking nazis, you know, national socialists. Calling repugs nazis only shows your lack of education and ample hate. The nazis were socialists, eugenicist racists, and environmentalists, just like our democrats.

People making the argument that being part of the military is the key to gun ownership do not know their history. Should you actually go back and read what the framers said, it was very much an individual right.

Likewise, can you name any other rights in the bill of rights that are group rights rather than the individual rights? Should the first amendment only apply to the press and liberal group talking points? No it is an individual right. Is the right against unlawful search and seizure a group right only for the military? No, it is an individual right. How about suffrage? Group or individual? Individual. All of them are. Even the second.

As far as the guy saying that we needed guns in frontier days to fend off wild animals and hunt, some of us still do that. In my back land, there are bears, wolves, and cougars that liberals forced on us, competing with me for food, and sometimes thinking that I am dinner. In an emergency the cops can be here in 45 minutes to an hour if they do 100+mph. I shouldn't be able to defend myself? Maybe that works in your city-boy apartment complex, but not out here in the other 95% of the US, AKA the real world.

This isn't about guns, it is about obama ( and your) extremist anti-constitutional agenda being rejected by the masses, and all respect for him and your radical agenda lost within 9 months of total democrat power. You wanted to force your agenda anyway by sending in thugs, and were met with armed opposition, just like the framers envisioned.

The only difference between now and then? In the old days there would have been a lot of SEIU and ACORN corpses to clean up. Today we are much more restrained with our firearm use. That is probably good news for constitution hating people like you guys.

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» Water the flowers ? Posted by: That_SOB
» Nazi environmentalism Posted by: xvet

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Why is a New York yankee allowed to trash the rights of law abiding gun owners?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: WYGunston on Aug 24, 2009 11:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I own firearms and if I had to attend a political rally, I'd carry them concealed. It ain't the law abiding gun owners that pose a threat. It's Congress and the insurance corporations who are taking away our rights to health care. Idiots !

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Militias
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Posted by: aonghus36 on Aug 24, 2009 11:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Militias have been rising since at least the 2nd term of Dubya. When the right wingers figured out that Bush wasn't somebody you should want to have a beer with, and was indeed using them and/or their children for their rich man's war in Iraq, they started arming. They tend to call themselves "Goldwater Conservatives". This would be as opposed to be a "Neocon". The militias are simply getting more attention now, as they are growing. They are anti-new world order, but know it can come in a right-wing or left-wing form. Political party would be just a front to the nwo.

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A Pro-Gunner chimes in
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Posted by: Axiom69 on Aug 24, 2009 11:43 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a "pro-gunner". I own a variety of firearms and support an individuals right to "keep and bear arms". That being said bringing a weapon to a Presidential event is pure political theatre. I believe in open and concealed carry but would NOT carry to a place where the President was regardless of which party was in office. Just as I don't carry when I go to the airport. Do they have the "right" to do it? Yes. Should they? No. End of story.

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» RE: A Pro-Gunner chimes in Posted by: djnoll

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On the brink of explosion
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Posted by: maxfrisson on Aug 24, 2009 12:01 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think if you read all these posts the one thing you must agree is there is a great deal of anger and fear on both sides. I feel we are about one incident away from South American-style civil unrest. Groups of insurgents controlling sections of the nation. States-rights will be the next issue.

If HR3200 had been explicitly outlined by Obama in Oct. 2008, an old white guy would be President and we would be one heart attack away from a Palin Presidency. Try that for scary!

Most GOPers would be appalled by me, atheist, pornographer and cannabis consumer. But I trust Barry O and his crew even less than I do Xian moralists.

I bought 1000 .410 shells in couple different loads in the last 3 months. I have the Taurus steel-framed Judge that takes the 3" shells and a BOND Snake Slayer. Both bought at gun shows for cash and unregistered anywhere. I suggest you do the same.

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» crap.. Posted by: Drclaw

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The Illogical Lunacy Of The Right
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Posted by: desidid on Aug 24, 2009 12:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Guns don't kill people! People do! Guess what cars don't drive themselves into people! People do! Stating the obvious isn't defending a position or mounting a reasoned response to anything.

President Obama worked with Bill Ayers. Yeah Nixon worked with Halderman, Erlichman, John Mitchell, G. Gordon Liddy and other subversive law breakers. Reagan worked with Oliver North who ran the Iran-Contra scandal out of the basement of the White House. And where do we begin with Bush, Cheney, and Rove lying us into a war. Clearly Republican children must be lobotimized at birth; since they don't recognize it is much worst for the President to order or condone crimes from the White House, than it is to know someone who has committed a crime.

Right wing zealots must carry guns to town hall meetings because their Constitutional rights are being violated. Which right would that be exactly?

Right wing zealots don't accept or want socialized programs. Except unemployment, SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, disability, food stamps, WIC, HUD, and grants. But that is where they draw the line anything else is just plain commie talk!!!!!

Right wing zealots who become hysterical at town halls like to include the entire audience in their rant as if they were elected to speak for more than themselves. Oh sorry I forgot it is us liberals who assume we are speaking for the masses.

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» RE: The Illogical Lunacy Of The Right Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: The Illogical Lunacy Of The Right Posted by: Walks-in-Storms

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I want to thank the Reich-wingers of America
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Posted by: aahpat on Aug 24, 2009 1:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for their vociferous defense of my left-wing Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. Each and every day they give me more reason to.

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SECRET SERVICE's REFUSAL TO ARREST IS A "GREEN LIGHT"
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Posted by: AlwaysAskWhy on Aug 24, 2009 1:49 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SECRET SERVICE's REFUSAL TO ARREST IS A "GREEN LIGHT"

Since, for eight years anyone who wore an objectionable t-shirt was ejected from any Bush event, and arrested and prosecuted, it can only be surmised that the Secret Service, by REFUSING TO ARREST folks openly toting guns at an Obama event, is CLEARLY GIVING A GREEN LIGHT TO VIOLENCE AGAINST BARACK OBAMA, THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

I would guess that Obama and his family understand that THIS IS A WARNING.

I FEEL WARNED, AS WELL.

Not only is racism still alive and well in this country, but the class war: on intellectualism, on democracy, on the poor, on education (must preserve SERF-DOM), is also alive and well.

BELIEVE IT.

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Does the Truth Mean Anything
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Posted by: bandofotters on Aug 24, 2009 1:51 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can so many people posting here be blind to the simple fact that no one has brought any guns to any recent town hall meeting? Having a gun in one's car or carrying a gun beyond the radius of concern by the Secret Service does not sound like people bringing guns to town halls nor does it sound like intimidation especially when one has to go home and turn on the news to hear about what they missed.

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what a froth what a frenzy
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Posted by: percipi22 on Aug 24, 2009 1:52 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It strikes me how we can work ourselves into a regular froth as I read the previous 250 and some posts. How in sam hell are we to discuss anything at all with everyone right and left waving guns or threats of guns or violence, and bringing up the worst of our past as badges of honor or horror. I am tired.
A lifetime of war, assasinations, blood and bombings. Secret plots by capitalists to kill leaders raid social programs. The hatred of anyone not white, christian and male. (or male and islam) take your pick; (male and jewish) (black and just trained to hate) And the women who love them all hating and beating their chests. egad. Everyone is able to justify their victimhood and victimize with impunity. Grow up. or not. evolve or not. And if no one cares what happens to you after you shoot your way to that "safe" world you want, so be it

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Which comes closer to insurrection?
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Posted by: aahpat on Aug 24, 2009 1:55 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans and their political leaders gather to peacefully and respectfully discuss public policy differences.

Gun toting bullies coming to peaceful public policy discussions carrying assault weapons.

They didn't win the election.

They couldn't steal the election.

So they pick up their guns and they threaten insurrection.

Bringing together the Second Amendment and the Jeffersonian quote about the blood of patriots and tyrants and then declaring any politician a tyrant who does not echo your political views is a threat of assassination directed at all American politicians. Reich-wingers know this and have been using this tactic on American politicians ever since the 1960's. And throughout that time.

The Reich wingers know what they are doing. They firmly believe that there is a Second Amendment right to threaten politicians with assassination by simply declaring the politicians tyrants. This is why American politicians, especially Democrats, have become more and more right-wing in the past forty years. Coercion and intimidation by right-wing Second Amendment extremists has driven American politicians to the right.

I have often debated these Reich-wingers on these issues. They go on about how the Second Amendment will save America from tyrant politicians. American Reich-wingers firmly believe that the Second Amendment is a license from our founding fathers to assassinate America's elected political leaders and to wage war on the government of the United States.

So I ask them some specific questions about the tyrant declaration.

Who gets to declare a politician or government tyrannical?

Who decides which elected leaders of America need to be assassinated for tyranny?

Who gets to say when it is time to take up arms against the elected government of the United States?

Can the left-wing make the declaration of tyrant or is that only a right-wing Second Amendment right?

Who defines tyranny in a democratic and constitutional nation?


Variations on these questions always shut up the Second Amendment nuts. They call me a tyrant or a communist and run away from the discussion.

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GUNS, MEXICO, THE NRA - FAILED WAR ON DRUGS/TERROR is NOT AN ACCIDENT
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Posted by: AlwaysAskWhy on Aug 24, 2009 1:59 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IT'S NOT AN ACCIDENT THAT THE WARs ON TERROR AND DRUGS ARE A COMPLETE FAILURE.

THAT WAS THE PLAN. There's no profit in stopping them, now, is there?

Those who yell the loudest should be the first object of investigation.

And it should begin with Wayne LaPierre, EVP of the NRA.

I'd like to see HIS secret bank accounts. I wonder if his name will come up on UBS's list of 4500 TAX EVADERS.

I HOPE THAT LIST IS PUBLISHED SOON.

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Its not Treason its Insurrection
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Posted by: aahpat on Aug 24, 2009 2:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To assert the Second Amendment.

It is insurrection to rationalize assassination and violence against the United States government, our elected political leaders and citizens peacefully assembling, (who the Reich-wingers disagree with), is somehow a Second Amendment right.

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answers
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Posted by: FreeAmerica on Aug 24, 2009 3:10 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not a repug, but am a 2nd ammendment guy, so I'll take some questions..

Q-American Reich-wingers firmly believe that the Second Amendment is a license from our founding fathers to assassinate America's elected political leaders and to wage war on the government of the United States.

A- Only when elections stop working.
The right path is the ballot box and voice of the people. As obama and his gang of 13 million little eichmans steal or pitch more and more elections you might start seeing movement toward it. At the moment, this is a non-issue other than for extremists like the harpy screechel madcow trying to inflame her hater base.

Our population and government would have a short temper with a small group of armed radicals trying to take over. You saw very little support for the kooks in Waco or OK City. If they were right, the country would have joined them in great numbers. Instead of armed insurrection we address it peacefully first, as in the GLORIOUS 1994 elections.

So I ask them some specific questions about the tyrant declaration.

Q-Who gets to declare a politician or government tyrannical?
A-The people at large. They will decide when the process has become corrupt enough that voting no longer works. This is why you see a different reaction between lone radical actors, and the populus as seen at town hall meetings.

Q- Who decides which elected leaders of America need to be assassinated for tyranny?
Who gets to say when it is time to take up arms against the elected government of the United States? A- see above answer.

Can the left-wing make the declaration of tyrant or is that only a right-wing Second Amendment right?
A- Certainly a lefty can call a leader a tyrant, and even do something about it if you can get the country behind you. After 8 years of pavlovian screaming about the dullard bush, and then giving us the goofy bastard obama, your credibility is a little thin. It still puzzles me how you guys think that Bush is too stupid to arrange four words into a sentence, but is also a secret evil genius.

Who defines tyranny in a democratic and constitutional nation?

The people the people the people, seeing the pattern?

Who should defend our liberty and constitutional republic from tyrants and despots?

Any and every free man of sound mind capable of carrying an arm in defense of the republic and constitution. Or something like that.

No one is advocating revolution or shooting obama. No one. Some people did bring a side arm to a town hall to remain safe and to keep it safe for dissent in the face of obama's bussed in union and ACORN Nazi thugs. They were impeding the first amendment rights of the people, and did so violently. That stopped when a few second amendment folks showed up. I guess you are mad your Nazi thugs were outgunned?

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» Wrong answers Posted by: EncinoM
» Your attitude is un-American Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: No question Posted by: desidid
» Democrats and Republicans Posted by: leafsong1
» On second thought... Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: answers Posted by: Backgammon

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This Is why I continually urge Americans to know our history
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Posted by: desidid on Aug 24, 2009 3:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's review some of the facist laws we have instituted to protect the sovereignty of white people or to limit other political expression.

1870 Naturalization Act limits American citizenship to "white persons and persons of African descent," barring Asians from U.S. citizenship.

Irish immigrants led the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 that would exclude Chinese from immigrating for 10 years.

1901 After President William McKinley is assassinated by a Polish anarchist, Congress enacts the Anarchist Exclusion Act, which allows immigrants to be excluded on the basis of their political opinions.

1907 Expatriation Act declares that an American woman who marries a foreign national loses her citizenship.


1922 Cable Act partially repeals the Expatriation Act, but declares that an American woman who marries an Asian still loses her citizenship.

1923 In the landmark case of United States v. Bhaghat Singh Thind, the Supreme Court rules that Indians from the Asian subcontinent could not become naturalized U.S. citizens. (This one worked retroactively to rescind those East Indians who had been given citizenship.)

1950 The Internal Security Act, passed over President Harry Truman's veto, bars admission to any foreigner who is a Communist or who might engage in activities "which would be prejudicial to the public interest, or would endanger the welfare or safety of the United States."

This is what H. G. Wells wrote about Italians and Slavs:

In “The Future in America” Wells spoke of native-born U.S. society developing “above a racially different and astonishingly fecund” working class made up of Slavs and Italians. In importing this “dark- haired, dark-eyed, uneducated, proletariat from Central and Eastern Europe,” Wells continued, U.S. industry had undertaken a process that little “differs from the slave trade, and that would add “another class and kind” to the ranks of the “coloured population” in the United States (p. 6 David Roediger Working Towards Whiteness)

In 1922 Takeo Ozawa, of Japan filed for citizenship under the Naturalization Act of 1906, he argued that Japanese be considered white (American Anthropological Organization, 2007). However, the Supreme Court ruled that the Japanese were inassimilable. Another case that would further define race was that of Bhagat Singh Thind, an Eastern Indian, who also argued that he was white. This case would forever identify Eastern Indians as Asians. But the more chilling effect of the decision would be to render previously naturalized Eastern Indians non-citizens. These laws were precursors to others that were raced based, including Virginia’s “one drop rule.” This law defined anyone having a drop of mixed blood as colored. (American Anthropological Organization 2007) Both of the above mentioned cases seem to support the notion that self-identifying as white, while having the court and government agree has been the most important prerequisite to Americanism.

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allen
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Posted by: pursah on Aug 24, 2009 4:59 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Patriot Act the whole dammed lot of them. The hate talk radio hosts, the hate cable dudes, Rush, the gun toting terrorists--these are traitors who want to plunge this nation into a new civil war. Off to Poland and prison for the whole dammed lot of them.

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A powder keg waiting to be lit
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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Aug 24, 2009 5:46 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With the Crazy Right now arming itself and bringing guns to political meetings is the next to last step to their attempting a coup. They will make the same mistake as the Redcoats made in Concord MA. They once were the KKK,the American Nazi Party, then John Birchers, now they are the armed Republicans. They may start the shooting, but rest assured they will not finish it.

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All this obsession with the gun nuts at the rally is only distracting the public from
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Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 24, 2009 5:55 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the real attention that is health care. It's safe to say that we all agree that they shouldn't have shown up armed at the townhall meetings where the president was president. And yet what never gets mentioned is the fact that gun sales have been going up because more people are just getting plain fed up with government betraying them. But let's go back and recall that there were no town hall meetings when it came to tax cuts and wars. There were certainly no townhall meetings when it came to bailouts for Wall Street and I doubt that Obama will allow for them either. So why did we need town hall meetings for health care even when it was obvious that America is screaming for it? This Congress and the President could have simply put the correct bills on the table for passing (HR676 in the House and S703 in the Senate) with very little modifications and since both of those bills would have strong public approval, the townhall meetings and those silly gunmen could have been avoided. Instead, here we are quibbling about those silly gunmen and worrying about the president's safety while thousands of pages of bullshit pork are being written into the health care bill which will amount to nothing in the end. Breads and circuses can be fun but none of that substitutes for the responsibilities of Congress and the White House. This country and our government are once again a complete LAUGHING STOCK and this will go down in infamy. I now return you to your silly "debate" on the gunmen.

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Lefties should arm themselves
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Aug 24, 2009 6:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The time has come.

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No Te Fies De Quien No Se Fia De Nadie
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Posted by: Lilly on Aug 24, 2009 7:58 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a Spanish saying "No te fies de quien no se fia de nadie" (don't trust someone who doesn't trust anyone). What is this nonsense that the government is out to get us, has betrayed us, is stealing from us via taxation, is going to turn us over to the New World Order, is training thugs to garrote us, is indoctrinating our kindergarteners to become homosexual, is going to kill Grandma etc, and we must all buy guns and become trained sharpshooters in order to survive?

And what is more interesting, this line of crap is being marketed by nice middle-class people who live in the peaceable suburban and small-town kingdom, Sarah Palin's Real America. I live downtown in a major city where we do things like walk on the streets and ride on the subways and I don't know a single person who has a gun or would even consider getting one. There is some kind of weird cultural disconnect here. I want to say to those scared and distrustful people, "...My dear, my dear/ It is not so dreadful here".

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Intimidation by HMOs
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Posted by: Kimberly on Aug 25, 2009 7:45 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Intimidation by Federal HMO Hospital Service Providers is a daily occurrence HHS OIG T42CFR417.1 systematic denial of Covered Claims - where is law enforcement to protect our Elderly from Anti-Dumping and Anti-Kickback Violations ?
.
Criminal Resource Manual 923 18 U.S.C. 371 --White Collar Crime, Section 371. Both offenses require the traditional elements of Section 371 conspiracy, including an illegal agreement, criminal intent, and proof of an overt act
.
1998 U.S. Attorney General and HHS OIG Provider Self-Disclosure Protocol (SDP), see 63 Fed. Reg. 58,399 Program ~ 1996 HIPAA Violation | T18CFR286CRIME | T18CFR371CRIME ~ Color of Law T42CFR417.1 Systematic Denial of EXISTING Federal Insurance - to force HCFA State OFIS Medicaid KICKBACK Conversions - Willfully failed to keep individuals from harm T18CFR242CRIME
DATED: November 24, 1998 June Gibbs Brown [ HHS ] Inspector General
DATED: November 24, 1998 Nancy-Ann Min DeParle [ HCFA ] Administrator
DATED: January 16, 2008 Daniel R. Levinson [ HHS ] Inspector General
This campaign [ T42CFR417.1 CONSUMER FRAUD ] WAS fully " launched " in 1999 - racketeering
.
HHS - 42CFR438.704 - OUTREACH CAMPAIGN for the ELDERLY - T18CFR242CRIME
HHS T42CFR417.1 ~ fraud by fright | white collar crime 1996 HIPAA Violation ~
TITLE 42-[ HHS employee ]-PUBLIC HEALTH HUMAN SERVICES PART 417 -[ Federal HMO employee ]-HEALTH MAINTENANCE ORGANIZATIONS, Subpart B-( HMO )- Qualified Health Maintenance Organizations: SERVICES (g) Grievance procedures: Alternate Dispute Resolution, DENIAL OF Existing T42CFR409.33 OPM FEHBP ( et al ) HMO Hospital Insurance Services - HHS Anti-dumping violation, to force, fraud by fright, illegal HCFA State Medicaid T42CFR409.33 kickback conversions ]. (h) SPECIAL rules : Enrollees ( Covered Individuals ) under the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program ( FEHBP ).An HMO that accepts enrollees under the ( OPM ) FEHBP (Chapter 89 of title 5 of the U.S.C. - OPM T5CFR890.105 Denial of COVERED T42CFR409.33 Claims, Alternate Dispute Resolution | Anti-dumping violation - illegal agreement with HHS OIG to induce forfiture, to force illegal HCFA State Medicaid T42CFR409.33 kickback conversion - eligibility POOR ) may obtain and retain Federal qualification if ................

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Maddow and Rich
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Posted by: Aredee on Aug 25, 2009 2:52 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
are the two most profound and accurate pundits in the MSM today. I too remember November, 1963--I was 13 at the time. I also remember amidst the shock and dismay among my classmates, there was a significant number who were jubilant that someone finally did in that "n___________ lover."

It's deja vu all over again.

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» RE: Maddow and Rich Posted by: desidid

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New rule
[Report this comment]
Posted by: motamanx6 on Aug 25, 2009 4:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Agreed. A cornerstone of our Bill of Rights. But strap-on loaded assault rifles, etc ought to be absolutely banned from stadia, crowded meetings, and town hall get togethers--especially around the President. A simple case of security.

If people werte busted for wearing liberal tee shirts at Bush rallies, then rifles and guns should enjoy equal status now.

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.9 mm is very small
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Posted by: swifteagl on Aug 25, 2009 9:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.9 mm handguns don't actually exist. If they did it would be a very small round indeed. He probably had a 9 mm handgun.

By the way, Ernest is not a right wing guy, he's a Libertarian. Libertarians don't fall into left/right group as they simply believe in a small Federal Government. They actually line up with right & left depending on which issue you look at, as well as the other way around.

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Not right-wingers, but libertarians
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Posted by: madisonpaine on Aug 26, 2009 10:32 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This entire ruckus, as framed by the extremely liberal media, is an exercise in bashing a straw man. They begin with the assumption that the gun-toting protesters are right-wingers intent on intimidating others in the arena of political ideas.

Anyone who has paid attention, however, will have noted that in both New Hampshire and Arizona, the individuals making their Second Amendment points were not Republicans or even conservatives, but libertarians.

That's right. Libertarians who spent the previous eight years railing against the Bush police state. Now they're raising the old cry of "taxation without representation," among other things. Why? Because the roughly $3 trillion deficit Obama has already locked in amounts to about $10,000 for every man, woman, and child in the nation -- an amount that won't be paid off unless by those who never had a say in the matter. Given that our total debt is now over $20 trillion, perhaps you can appreciate that something extremely unfair to coming generations is afoot in this country. To call it "slavery" is no exaggeration, unless you believe that involuntary servitude must be utterly complete in order to count.

So the purpose of these armed demonstrations is to remind our government that the militia (by law, basically the armed populace) will not stand by peaceably forever while such abuses accumulate. The purpose of the Second Amendment is to guarantee that no would-be tyrannical government can prevail against the militia. And to think everyone on the left treats that as a bad thing! Germany's Jews sure could have benefited from that kind of culture, as could every population in history that has been subjected to totalitarian rule without voting for it.

No, this isn't about trying to suppress the expression of ideas. It's about expressing opposition to tyranny, period.

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.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: jtpatrick108 on Aug 27, 2009 5:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the simplest methods to remove the obesity problem in America would be to give citizens miracle berry so that disgusting healthy food will taste great. Since obesity is such a big problem, this could save money when it comes to health care. Ok I'm just kidding!

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John Birch, not John Burke's
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Posted by: OakRaidFan1 on Aug 30, 2009 1:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Early in the interview, the transcript quotes Frank Rich talking about John Burke's. It should read as John Birch, as in the John Birch Society, or the Birchers (no, not the Birthers)....

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Blu-ray to Apple TV
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Posted by: ptwb123 on Aug 30, 2009 7:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Blu-ray to Apple TV is exactly the problem I've been having. I converted I Am Legend using meGUI and it plays fine in VLC but I get the bad public atom message in Quicktime.

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Lost people @ the town hall meetings
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Posted by: garmy on Sep 1, 2009 3:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is lost people that have to show up with guns. They are so in need of attention for them selves. They are followers of a gouup of insecure people. What is the point of shhowing up armed to a meeting for health care for all. Also. I hope these people are being checked out by the police. They are nuts and should not have a weapon. That is very scarey.

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These States Gun Laws Would Change Overnight
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Posted by: desidid on Aug 24, 2009 12:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if the New Black Panthers began showing up at these town hall meetings strapped and loaded for bear. Americans would wake up rather quickly to what the future could hold, and they would not like it. They would clammer for assault rifle bans and for keeping your weapons at home. Much like California did after the old Black Panthers surrounded the California legislature.

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» "I and Love and You" Posted by: foreverhope

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Hypocracy
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Posted by: Mathew Trisencusean on Aug 24, 2009 12:51 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why does political intimidation taste different when its in your own neighbourhood?
What part of America's foriegn policy in the last 60 years has'nt been based on intimidation of one sort or another?
I say suffer in your jocks America.
You reap what you sow.

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» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: MT512
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: Mathew Trisencusean
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: MT512
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: MT512
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: Mathew Trisencusean
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: MT512
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: Hypocrisy Posted by: mkdelta69
» RE: Hypocracy Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» Hippahkrasea Posted by: Beck
» RE: Hippahkrasea Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: Hippahkrasea Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Hippahkrasea Posted by: Walks-in-Storms

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Union guys are a lot scarier
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Posted by: LillianB on Aug 24, 2009 1:50 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The townhall videos I've seen have there are big burly guys in blue and red tee shirts pushing 60 somethings around. In one townhall some citizens were turned away as the union members allowed only other union members to pass. And of course the black conservative being beat up and hospitalized by an over zealous blue shirt foot soldier. Is this a National Civilian force Obama is organizing to discourage the voice of the people?

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» RE: Union guys are a lot scarier Posted by: BobPomeroy
» RE: Union guys are a lot scarier Posted by: surfreality
» links to vids of those townhalls, pls Posted by: hurricane hugo

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New World Order
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Posted by: devasious on Aug 24, 2009 2:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
read the book , i did and its all there black and white print. i was astonished at what i read and its happening right now as we speak and read this article

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» RE: New World Order Posted by: BitcoDavid
» RE: New World Order Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: New World Order Posted by: MT512
» RE: New World Order Posted by: Morell

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The left and right are going to fight
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Aug 24, 2009 3:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America has been in a state of undeclared civil war ever since the Republicans stole the 2000 Presidential election.

Stealing an election is not a dirty trick. It is an act of war. Once they have taken your vote they have made you a slave.

I disapprove of violence, but I'm quite sure the left and right are going to fight.

Not to worry. Sure, the other side will cheat. But it'll be a minority of aging white males versus the rest of the country.

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» RE: The left and right are going to fight Posted by: Mathew Trisencusean
» RE: The left and right are going to fight Posted by: Mathew Trisencusean
» What? Are you retarded? Posted by: rafaeltoral

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Wow, I find this so very sad....not news, but sad
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Posted by: Razional Thinker on Aug 24, 2009 3:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the writing is practically on the wall and some of the news media and the republican party and many of the disgruntled posters do not give a damn...inflame and insinuate is their game...and trust me it is a game because if it weren't, they would give true facts when they doubted something but instead they provide incendiary speculation. Damn shame!! Where has our sense of the US ability to factually debate an issue without creating a toxic atmosphere gone? Me thinks all this unnecessary ugliness is a regrab/undermining attempt by the republican party and a ratings grab by the media so they can charge more for advertising space. Wow, the US is ruled by greed....even, when our president's life could be on the line> SICKENING!!!

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Small Correction
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Posted by: Emily on Aug 24, 2009 3:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the 60s it was the John Birch Society - not the John Burke's Society. They're still around, by the way.

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» RE: Small Correction Posted by: colinmeister
» RE: Small Correction Posted by: MT512
» RE: Small Correction Posted by: marykane
» RE: Small Correction Posted by: Lilly

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".9 millimeter pistol"
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Posted by: tjg1984 on Aug 24, 2009 4:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where can you get one of these?

If you're wondering why I pointed this out, .9 millimeters is only a little bit larger than standard mechanical pencil lead. Use common sense when writing about guns.

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» RE: ".9 millimeter pistol" Posted by: mainspark
» RE: ".9 millimeter pistol" Posted by: praedor
» We need bigger guns than that. Posted by: Chris Kaufmann
» RE: ".9 millimeter pistol" Posted by: Gentle Axeman

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Ensign anecdote says it all
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Posted by: taxidriver on Aug 24, 2009 4:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ensign says he did nothing "legally wrong" in having an adulterous affair, paying off his lover, and providing a job to a family member.

The gun owners say they're exercising their legal right to carry firearms.

What about morality? Is it moral to sleep with a staff member and pay her hush money?

What about ethics? Is it sensible to carry guns to a political function? Is it right to be seen as possibly posing a threat to our highest elected leader?

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They're easy to spot compared to the Obama PR cultists who troll the progressive sites and
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Posted by: Benn_Miller on Aug 24, 2009 5:17 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
disrupt and distract. At least with gun-strapped rightwingers, you can spot them a mile away while the Obama cultists will stab you in the back unexpectedly. Hence the surprises? I can't be surprised.

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American as Apple Pie
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Posted by: snowhound on Aug 24, 2009 5:24 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects a right to keep and bear arms from infringement by the federal government.

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» RE: American as Apple Pie Posted by: praedor
» RE: American as Apple Pie Posted by: lupuslefou
» RE: American as Apple Pie Posted by: Lurker
» RE: American as Apple Pie Posted by: clthompson
» RE: American as Apple Pie Posted by: lupuslefou
» Good Quote, except... Posted by: djnoll
» RE: Good Quote, except... Posted by: snowhound
» RE: American as Apple Pie Posted by: Morell

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Opportunities
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Posted by: progressive-life on Aug 24, 2009 5:29 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems there are always nuts with an agenda willing to jump onto any opportunity. There is no doubt that the rage demonstrated at Town Halls is genuine, for a number of ligit reasons.

These people should also protest the use of intimidation and violence at these meetings to differentiate themselves from left wing protesters who always seem to use such tactics.

It always amazed me that our AG dropped the charges against Black Panthers dressed in military fatigues armed with clubs standing near voting booths in Phily.

Wonder why Maddow or that nut Olbermann hasn't expressed outrage for this. I also wonder why Obama had the charges dropped!

"Minister Najee Muhammad, national field marshal for the New Black Panther Party, and Uhuru Shakur, local chairman of the Atlanta chapter of the party, took turns reading statements from Dr. Malik Shabazz, leader of Black Lawyers for Justice and attorney for the party (yes, that Malik Shabazz)…
…”We will not allow some racists and other angry whites, who are upset over an impending Barack Obama presidential victory, to intimidate blacks at the polls,” Muhammad said. “Most certainly, we cannot allow these racist forces to slaughter our babies or commit other acts of violence against the black population, nor our black president.”
Muhammad added, “We must organize to counter and neutralize these threats using all means at our disposal. This is a great time for our people, and we must ensure that peace prevails for our people.”"

AND

The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights is demanding that the Justice Department explain why it recently dismissed a civil complaint against members of the New Black Panther Party who disrupted a Philadelphia polling place during last year’s election, saying the department has offered only “weak justifications.”

Commission Chairman Gerald A. Reynolds, a former deputy associate attorney general under President George W. Bush, said he fears the legal precedent set by the department in its May decision to drop the case might encourage “other hate groups” to act similarly at polling locations in the future.

Mr. Reynolds also charged that other groups might not have been treated so leniently.

“If you swap out the New Black Panther Party in this case for neo-Nazi groups or the Ku Klux Klan, you likely would have had a different outcome,” he told The Washington Times in a telephone interview Monday.



So seems certain hate groups are ok. especially if they support the President and AG.

THAT is the outrage that we should be expressing!

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» RE: SPEAKING OF TROLLS.... Posted by: Carol Burns
» RE: Parrots may be beyond rage Posted by: guns4everyone
» RE: Opportunities Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Opportunities Posted by: progressiveview
» You are a rascist madam Posted by: Don't Panic
» RE: You are an idiot Posted by: desidid
» RE: Sorry Posted by: desidid

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second amendment rights
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Posted by: sherry on Aug 24, 2009 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For years we have not been allowed to carry signs on sticks at protests. But if we could get our sticks registered as weapons, we'd be okay? Now that I think of it, did anyone check to see if the rifles, etc. were registered? Maybe all we have to do is fashion poster sticks that look like rifles.

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MJ
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Posted by: mijoh on Aug 24, 2009 6:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll tell you what. These reichwing fools don't realize that thay are not the only ones with guns. Because of their perverting of the second amendment, us lefties have guns too. Make note of it.

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» RE: MJ Posted by: kungfuma

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It's probably just going to get worse
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Posted by: MT512 on Aug 24, 2009 6:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whenever the conservatives lose the presidency, no matter who is in office, they will always see him as an extreme-left radical liberal on steroids. Since they live waaaaay over on the right with Mussolini and Hitler, anyone to the left of them is a scary radical leftist communist socialist Marxist.

Bill Clinton, who at his "leftest" was still the center's famous champion, was painted as a fringe leftist and as this article mentions, there was a huge rise in militia-like anti-government activity.

I think the Republican leaders are such incredibly sore losers that when the President is a Democrat, they encourage the idiotic lies that all the chest-beating simians soak up like sponges, namely, THEY'RE GONNA TAKE MAH GUNS!

So we see the same thing happening, but more boldly, with President Obama. Not only is he a hated non-Republican, but he's also "black," thus tapping in even more to the vein or racism that underlies so much of this. (Yes, there was one gun-totin' black guy, whoopee.)

As the right becomes more desperate, they will tear everything down in their attempts to regain power, thereby making everyone more desperate. They would rather poison the national well than have their political enemies drink from it.

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» You're absolutely right. Posted by: GuitarBill
» but... Posted by: Drclaw
» We'll see, won't we. Posted by: GuitarBill
» agreed Posted by: Drclaw
» ROTFLMAO! %^) Posted by: GuitarBill

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It worked for the Nazi Brownshirts
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Aug 24, 2009 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Watching with disbelief the intimidation and shrieking rhetoric of these right-wingers at the health care meetings, I am struck by one thought: it worked for Nazis back in 1932.

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» RE: Because we all know... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: WFT Posted by: desidid
» RE: WFT should have been Posted by: desidid

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Reminds Me of a Story ...
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Posted by: madmac10 on Aug 24, 2009 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... A passage from Les Miserables. Hugo describes two cliques that promenade through Paris: one wearing short-brimmed hats to signify their support of French Imperialist adventures in Latin America; another wearing wide-brimmed hats to symbolize their support for the local insurgency. Both groups roundly repudiate the acts of horrific violence perpetrated by their adversaries, awhile downplaying the horrific violence perpetrated by their side.

Put on your hats, people. No matter how wide the brim, I am sure it will shade your eyes from the atrocities committed in the name of your band in the spectrum.

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What a load
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Posted by: FreeAmerica on Aug 24, 2009 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is a load of fear baiting crap.

The SS would never let armed citizens near ANY president or prez candidate. NO way, no how.

As one poster pointed out, the guns at town hall meetings thing came after obama's bussed in union thugs started beating people up. No one got shot, but the obama nazi shock troops probably stopped their physical attacks. We were outgunned and couldn't practice our disruption and thuggery. Waaaaa. Momeeeeeeee!

As far as race hate, a black hate monger-racist named McGee tried that in Milwaukee, threatening to shoot whites passing through the 'hood on the freeway at random. He was promptly introduced to the fact that there were 500,000 deer hunters with high powered rifles in the state, most of them not from the 'hood or big fans of it.He decided he didn't want to start a race war with people that can regularly shoot the bottom out of a coffee cup 1/2 mile away when all that he had were some dinky $35 .25 cal ghetto pop guns.

You will find that armed militias pop up when dems are in power. Generally it is because of the democrat's endless attacks on the constitution (like this one). If they actually read it and gave it some reverence, it probably wouldn't be the case. Some people will actually take up arm to defend their country from despots and tyrants like klinton or the Hitler wannabe named obama.

What these two uneducated haters don't realize
is that the second amendment is right under the first, the one that empowers these people to bloviate their lies and spew their hate. Why is it that they think that the first is absolute, but the second means nothing?

One last question, were they talking about John Ensign or John Edwards? Did Ensign go and diddle his mistress while his wife was terminal with cancer? If you take off the partisan blinders, you might find that they are both cheating assholes.

This article was a typical one sided hate spewing basket of lies from two of the most ignorant liberal jerks on the planet. Everyone Dean-scream.. Yeaaaaaaaaa!

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» Twist and Turn Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: What a load Posted by: MT512
» Obama vs Gingrich Posted by: Chris Kaufmann
» RE: Obama vs Gingrich Posted by: MT512
» "one sided hate spewing basket of lies" Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: What a load Posted by: johnthetreehugger
» RE: What a load Posted by: djnoll
» RE: What a load Posted by: Morell
» RE: What a load Posted by: untameable

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Maddow's muddled mind matters not to many
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Posted by: CalKid on Aug 24, 2009 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ms. Maddow's remark "...I worry about and wonder about what citizens who aren‘t law enforcement officers, who aren‘t directly responsible for keeping other people safe,.." shows her ignorance about self-defense, and self-reliance.

The US Supreme Court in at least 10 cases has held that police have no duty to protect an indvidual, but instead, have a duty to protect society as a whole.

It doesn't matter if one has a protective order, the police are not reponsible for that person's safety.

It doesn't matter that NY City prohibits self-protection with arms, the government will not protect you.

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Ms. Maddow, meet Mr. Chris Hedges
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Posted by: blondesprite on Aug 24, 2009 6:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I ran across a speech given by Mr. Hedges about why war gives us meaning. Warning, it is an hour long. It will read, or sound like dark poetry, sad and graphic, but oh so compelling!

If you listen, it will explain so much about why we struggle, why we fight, why we are so addicted to violence or our individual and collective, with all their glittering trappings, causes.

You might also enjoy a new book by Mr.Richard Feldman, titled: Ricochet: Confessions of a Gun Lobbyist.

After twenty years(one wonders why it took so long) Mr. Feldman realized the NRA could care less about the second amendment. Their agenda is more about recruitment and donations, than about protecting our civil rights.

Ms. Maddow, truth is a double edged sword, it cuts both ways.

Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2SaM8RJ30c&NR=1

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Perhaps the militias are aware of the creeping fascism that's permeating our gov't, and they wish to
[Report this comment]
Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Aug 24, 2009 6:59 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
hold their ground against it with peaceful display of the 2nd Amendment???

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» Blank Minds Posted by: Aimleft
» Good point. Posted by: GuitarBill

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Repub's are hypocrites/2face/liars
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Posted by: mchllecat on Aug 24, 2009 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Repub's are doing everything in their power to fight the election that they already lost,Imagine Bush era where b4 you could go to any event Bush attended and sign a waiver that you promise no matter what not to look wrong at Pres.,My Grandma was waiting outside on a bench she always sat at in her town,Bush came to town and she was tolsd no more sitting here,Bush feels threatened,But these LOONEY REPUG"s wear guns,praying to God they get hassled just so they can scream my rights,my rights as a gun owner are being hampered,whatever,But what do we truely expect from the Boss Hog Rush Limbaugh party
GOP = Gone Off Planet

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Constitution
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Posted by: bperk on Aug 24, 2009 7:21 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To put it simply, ever hear of the Second Ammendment? I know it's an ongoing fight, but it is still the law. If the State Law allows it, then you are the paranoid ones.

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» RE: Constitution Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Constitution Posted by: Morell

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Bill Ayers =big booms
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Posted by: donnal on Aug 24, 2009 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bill Ayers in his youth used bombing as his message delivery, and is he not a friend of the Presdient?

MSNBC does not tell you that several of those with firearms were men of color. Perhaps those who carry firearms where sending their message to SEIU and ACORN who have arrived at town halls in buses that they are not going to be intimated.

The President has no one but himself to blame for the armed persons at his "grassroots town halls".

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» RE: Bill Ayers =big booms Posted by: MT512

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Treason and Heresy slung over their shoulder
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Aug 24, 2009 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FYI Christ did not command 'Armies' when spreading the Word. He did not enlist 'Soldiers' either.That was the Romans. In fact he even defeats Satan in the 'Final Battle' with nothing more than 'The Word'.It is Satan who requires the Armed forces, not Christ-once again
And lets be honest, these gunslingers aren't sending a message to our foreign enemies, it's a threat specifically aimed at the rest of US citizens.
'The Tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrannts and Patriots' is a call for a Civil War. They are declaring War against US, not 'Islamic Terrorists' at these Rallies.
They would rather Kill and die protecting their weaponry than this Union and it's citizens. TX and AK are talking about taking up arms and declaring their independence, because they 'Love this Country'?? A 2nd Amdendmenter is willing to shoot a fellow citizen to protect and defend a gun? Where then does their words and actions indicate their allegience lies? Not with a United Country but with Personal power over all other citizens, even to the determinent of other citizens and the Union itself.
'Democracy at the end of a Gun is not a Democracy',and the Same can be said about Christianity.
That Assault rifle over your Shoulder, or the pea shooter strapped to your leg,speaks volumes about your Treasonous ideas and Heretical doctrine.You are niether Patriot or Christian.

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Conservatives seem more and more like a weird pyramid scheme
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Posted by: Beck on Aug 24, 2009 7:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many at the bottom, bitching and grousing about everything being the fault of liberals and unions and teachers and unions and atheists and unions and unions and Democrats and teachers (is ANYTHING ever your fault?) but otherwise doing nothing but sending lots of forwards about how nothing is their fault. As you go higher, you see those heading smaller organizations, and larger, and holding office, and finally those on TV and in radio, but what is worrisome is that top of the pyramid, that unknown, slighted-feeling guy with a gun, angry, unnoticed, willing to be the one at the top for a brief second, who pulls the trigger.

Then just watch those below him scatter and refuse to claim responsibility or acknowledge participation in the scheme as a whole, after they jubilate in private, of course.

Maybe I'm naive. Maybe the jubilation would be quite public.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.

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Interrogating Hate Suspects
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Posted by: melpol on Aug 24, 2009 8:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Setting up special units to interrogate suspects that are suspected of being a danger to the nation is an idea that was long overdo. It will be in the hands of the justice department not the CIA. Those units should be placed in big cities and small towns. Hate groups will be targeted. It is estimated that there are over one million radicals spewing hate. They must be interrogated and forced to name their accomplices. It will eliminate the biggest danger to the nation since the Hollywood communists.

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Why did MSNBC crop the picture of the guy with the assault rifle?
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Posted by: pg on Aug 24, 2009 8:07 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because he was BLACK!

And his being BLACK did not fit their white racism against our President story line!

MSNBC has no credibility and they are spreading sick propaganda!

Here is a picture of the filthy racist.

racist

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» No, here's what you wrote: Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Cling To That Image Posted by: desidid

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What is starkly true is that guns need to be outlawed in certain places, and especially
[Report this comment]
Posted by: avidAmerican on Aug 24, 2009 8:08 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
at locations where the U.S. President is holding a meeting. We cannot trust the gun morons to police themselves and to show enough respect to have such loose laws for guns. Guns in their hands is a dangerous situation for all around them. 2nd Amendment rights do not give them the right to carry guns a Presidential events. They are just twisting the laws to suit their own deadly agendas. We have guns too, but would never carry them to a public event of any kind. We have more respect for guns than that.

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They Want One-Party Rule
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Posted by: Lilly on Aug 24, 2009 8:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a recidivistic participant on conservative websites, I conclude that the right wing does not want a two-party political system.

I am old enough to remember the last thirteen US presidents. Until 1980, life continued just about the same whether Ford or Kennedy or Eisenhower or Carter was in office. Yes, we had the odd occasional war but, here at home, on a day-to-day basis, and in spite of the protests of the 1960's, we did not have an underground rumbling warning that war was about to break out among citizens. And I do not recall determination on either side to prevent governance by the party one had not voted for. I did not hear of private financing of an effort to trump up reason to impeach a sitting president, as was the case when Scaife bankrolled the Arkansas Project to "get" Clinton.

Now, even casual reading of posts to conservative townhall.com shows us right-wing determination to shut down the Obama presidency. "Demon-crap" legislation is to be aborted or crippled Reputations are to be savaged. Lies are to be broadcast. Meetings are to be shouted down. Conspiracies, no matter how bizarre, are to be devoured, swallowed, gulped down. Any government but Republican is to be sabotaged.

The line between intimidation and violence begins to look blurry. Posters brag about the size of their private arsenals and magazines. The Tree of Liberty is promised a good watering with the blood of tyrants. "Let them come...I am ready for them" is explicitly stated.

The racist undertone is always present and is wedded to the sense of danger. Last week a TH poster said that Obama intends to destroy "the America we know" so he could put Black Militants in charge (and since these imagined folks receive the full force of racist white projected hate, they will be extremely dangerous leaders for white people). Obama is named The Mulatto Messiah; his wife, Aunt Jemima. Obama is associated with urban problems; he is called a gang member, a street thug, a slum overlord. When gun advocates showed up at at an Obama speech last week, a townhall regular tried to establish a new rumor that the gun-bearers were, in fact, "Obama's thugs". And, of course, Obama is building concentration camps and training a private army.

With such dangers looming, it is only patriotic to stockpile ammunition and prepare for war. Violence will be an act of patriotism (isn't that a definition of terrorism?). Meanwhile Beck and Hannity and Limbaugh convince Americans that the greatest danger in their lives is the Obama government and foment not only resentment, rage, and fear but a sense of resolution: "we can and must do something to stop this".

Another townhall regular has posted his dream of invading Washington DC, arresting all the politicians and government employees, trying them for treason in military tribunals (the Judiciary having been done away with), and executing them. Half a dozen others write detailed plans to kill all Democrats, all liberals. Many more just mention the need to extinguish liberal politics once and for all. A final solution.

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» Re: They Want One-Party Rule Posted by: Chris Kaufmann
» Oh. My. God. Posted by: Aimleft

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The price of freedom
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Posted by: solrev on Aug 24, 2009 8:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It amazed me to hear congressmen say that law abiding citizens have a right to carry guns around the president. The redneck, who shot and killed the guard at the Holocaust Memorial Museum, was a law abiding citizen right up to the point when he became a murderer.

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» RE: The price of freedom Posted by: tjg1984

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Loose Nuts
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Posted by: cashelboylo on Aug 24, 2009 8:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitler’s financiers provided free beer for anybody who would attend a Nazi Party Beer Hall Rally but tolerated no opposition or even discussion. Nazi Stormtroopers severely beat any dissenters.
In the 1923 “Munich Beer Hall Putsch” Hitler stormed an opponent’s rally with 600 SA Stormtroopers, set up a machinegun aimed at the exit doors, fired a shot and declared the Munich and Berlin governments deposed.
The Munich Putsch failed, but Hitler held to the free beer, thuggery and guns tactic, by 1933 it succeeded and the whole world paid the price.
As the Weird Rightist Cultists further unravel, we may see some similar tactical development at meetings.
Maybe even a Palin Putsch.

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Just as Thomas Jefferson averred . . .
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Aug 24, 2009 8:44 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just as Thomas Jefferson averred that a little rebellion from time to time is good, it may be very well that people like Rachel Maddow are "threatened" by "John Q. Citizen" with a gun.

"If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one opinion than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind." J.S. Mill.

I have asked elsewhere here (let's hope I don't again provoke diatribe similar to that instance) how it is that society believes it has the right by mere rule of the majority to commit morally outrageous assault on the individual and escape unscathed. However the Rachel Maddows characterize it, the citizens in question here may just as well be saying "Don't Tread on Me."

While our most recent Supreme Court appointee says she doesn't know what the basic rights of a citizen are, I do. They are contained in our Constitution and its historically famed Bill of Rights. They are written very plainly, and while liberalism may demand its supposed right to equivocate, they are plain enough for the people Ms. Maddow decries to know.

Let us not equivocate. Let us understand that basic human rights are not only very easily recognized and understood, they are morally inviolable, they include the most basic of all rights, the right to defend one's life - "defend" meaning fight to keep it.

You SHOULD feel "threatened," Ms. Madden - you threaten me. It was only a few years ago that your kind of politics set the stage for the blizzard of feminist-inspired drumhead trials that sent hundreds, even thousands, of innocent men to long prison terms for rape and other crimes they of which they were not guilty. And for you and your vicious ilk to threaten by power of political pressure-group pimped-for and prostituted-for legislation, is no more moral than for me to threaten with my gun.

Interesting, isn't it? - that this essay appears on the same site as that crowing concerning how a radio talkshow host was driven from the air by his liberal enemies?

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» RE: Hmmmmm.... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Hmmmmm.... Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: Usually... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Usually... Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: But since... Posted by: Cybershaman

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Some thoughts (and maybe even a few facts)
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Posted by: willymack on Aug 24, 2009 8:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The neocons and their rethug stooges couldn't rig the 2008 election. Obama was too popular and had built up too much momentum for that.
Plan "B" was implemented right after Obama's inauguration, and is aimed at destroying his presidency by any and all means available. This is in some ways, similar to their efforts to discredit and destroy Clinton.
A real plus on the side of the neocons is that there are so many Americans running about with so many unresolved conflicts in their heads, histrionic, ignorant, and as malleable as play dough. A good example of this is the emotional fools at "town hall" Meetings. They're so full of anger and bullshit, they don't even know what they're takling about.
The neocons and rethugs are expert at repeating outrageous lies and distorted facts, easily overcoming any skepticism among those to whom critical thinking is absent.
They play on ignorance, emotion, and fear of change to keep the status quo going, much in the same manner as rabble-rousers at a religious "revival". They channel ill-defined emotion into a destructive force, suited to their purposes.
They would OWN us and have us as their slaves, because they're CRAZY with greed and lust for power. If they're not stopped, we're ALL up the creek without a paddle.

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The Night They Smashed La Prensa
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Posted by: Lilly on Aug 24, 2009 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have posted this before, and now I am going to post it again. When I was a girl my father's job took us to Argentina, where I was eyewitness to the night Peron's goons, after smashing the printing presses of La Prensa, the only newspaper to speak out against the dictator, rioted all night beneath our apartment balcony. They commandeered trams, threw off the passengers, and helled around downtown Buenos Aires waving flaming torches (real fire) and screaming "Peron! Peron! Peron!". Subsequently a law was passed making it an act of treason to criticize Peron; persons who did so were arrested on the street and not heard from again.

You cannot imagine the effect this had on an American child raised on the US Bill of Rights. The lesson I took from my experience was that there are indeed people in the world who will gladly use force to silence political opposition, and now I see those same people working hard to silence liberal thought in this country.

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» RE: The Night They Smashed La Prensa Posted by: celticwriter
» RE: The Night They Smashed La Prensa Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: The Night They Smashed La Prensa Posted by: Walks-in-Storms

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shoot down ideas you don't like
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Posted by: celticwriter on Aug 24, 2009 9:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
American citizens attending Obama’s town hall meetings on health care armed with
assault weapons and live ammunition as a statement of personal freedom is not only chilling, it makes the US the laughing stock of the rest of the developed world and large segments of the undeveloped world who already know too well what those weapons can do. I literally shake my head in disbelief. We are running out of earth and resources and these bozos think all they have to do is fire at philosophical Boogey Men and their troubles will disappear.

I was about to say that America doesn’t need another American Revolution, it needs a French Revolution but truth and justice can’t trust the citizenry to know who the real enemies are, which leads me to a consideration of Moore’s Paradox…to wit:

G. E. Moore remarked once in a lecture on the absurdity involved in saying something like "It's raining outside but I don't believe that it is." This paradox, sometimes known as Moore's paradox, might well have been forgotten if not for the fact that Ludwig Wittgenstein reportedly considered it Moore's most important contribution to philosophy.

Moore's Paradox forces us to think about such diverse topics as, among other things, the relation between assertion and belief, content and expression, the nature of belief, knowledge and rationality.

Moore's sentences have been used by logicians, computer scientists, and those working in the artificial intelligence community, as examples of cases in which a knowledge, belief or information system is unsuccessful in updating its knowledge/belief/information store in the light of new or novel information.

SPENCE SENSE – the ramifications of this are omnipresent in everything from:
· the world leading but overburdened cybernetical capacity of Cray Computers trying to keep up with paradimic permutations in complex environmental modeling
· to inappropriate decisions in the atavistic life and death game of chance inherent in Predator and Prey and, of course
· to the interminable and suicidal ignorance of large sections of the American population who still believe you can shout or shoot down anything you disagree with
· starting with their own feet.

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» RE: shoot down ideas you don't like Posted by: madisonpaine
» RE: shoot down ideas you don't like Posted by: Walks-in-Storms

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Maddow while correct is only getting at the symptom of the problem.
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Aug 24, 2009 10:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps it would be best if we united and took the time to understand who these militia really are. They are nothing more than ordinary working class citizens who are also the victims of cruel and abusive sellout economic/religious/military policies who feel angry to the core about government and business cashing in on our plight. While I don't approve of what the gun folks doing, I think that Rachel Maddow needs to target the real perpetrators who put them there to begin with, Big Insurance/Pharma and the Washington pols. Obama started out on the totally wrong path of pretending "reform" first by taking single payer off the table and forcing that idea to stay out of public discussion along with his cronies in Congress to assist. Next, Congress and the White House engage in more Dubya/Cheney like closed door meetings with Big Insurance/Pharma to stay as close to status quo and yet try to make the public "feel progress". Big Insurance/Pharma are still hell bent on maximizing their profits even as the version of "public option" favoring Big Insurance isn't enough so they want Obama and Congress to strip it away but they know that a public backlash will follow. Enter the Republicans stepping in and sending the paid Big Insurance/Pharma hecklers to the town hall meetings so that the public will not show their anger towards Washington and Big Insurance/Pharma but instead towards those poor fools who accepted the roles of player hecklers and now militia men. Like everyone else, these poor souls were finding employment tougher to come by and needed someone to bail them out. Certainly, Washington does not bail out poor people so these people turn to anything that will make them "feel good" and possibly pay them enough to barely survive. From here, Big Insurance/Pharma and Washington silently win and laugh their ways to the bank all the while once again keeping the working class divided among themselves. Once again, Main Street is forced to lose.

I did get emails asking me what would have happened if Obama had put single payer first? Simple, Big Insurance/Pharma would show their opposition and Washington's leadership would be put to the real litmus test. Caring for health care for all and putting quality before quantity would have meant keeping a firm grip on single payer. Cowering to the corporate interests like they did would mean governing against the people. It's a complete shame to watch most of the posters here showing their anger towards poor people just because they have guns and yet say very little against the corporate interests and corrupt pols in Washington who pushed them into this madness. This is not liberal, conservative, moderate, or whatever. This is Washington collaborating with the corporate interests and playing us for suckers and in the process engaging in dereliction of their duties to the people who voted them in.

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» Right on the head Jb Posted by: dingham

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Mob Mentality and the Second Amendment
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Posted by: djnoll on Aug 24, 2009 10:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is a well known fact that in a large group gathering, one or two people strategically placed can create a mob response in keeping, not with the general public mindset, but rather with a violent response not in keeping with the general public viewpoint. Best example in history was when Pontius Pilate ask the crowd to choose between Jesus of Nazareth (whom they liked) and Barrabas the Thief and revolutionary. The Pharisees, who were threatened by the sway Jesus held over the crowd, put people in the crowd to cheer for Barrabas and the rest of the crowd followed suit, swept up by the roar of the people next to them.

We see this happening today at town hall meetings where a small group, egged on by the media and those who organized them, drown out the reasoned discussion and create a mob mentality that is quickly turning against a sitting President. Enter the Second Amendment and these same groups of people who want to control the town halls. These modern-day Pharisees (the GOP, FOX, Beck, et al.)have placed with the help of the militias people into the crowd to distract and intimidate people into silence. They create a poisoned atmosphere while hiding behind their twisted view of the 2nd Amendment, where they control the mob mentality. In the end, instead of a public outcry, they create a public silence that is just as deafening to politicians as a public outcry.

What is truly frightening about mob mentality is that it does not take much to lose control of the mob, and perhaps that is what the GOP wants. It will take just one instance of someone being accidentally shot because the shooter overreacted to a car backfire or a firecracker to start a real riot that will harm a lot of people. It will take just one incident of someone shooting back to defend themselves in such a situation to create mass death.

Mob mentality is like that, and like cancer, fed with the right combination of events it will spread like wildfire. Remember South Central LA after Rodney King, or the Watts Riots of the '60s.

People who use the 2nd Amendment as an excuse to carry a loaded weapon to a public event where the President of the United States is speaking are trying to provoke the spark that will tear this country apart. Worse yet, if we continue to ignore the threat they pose, one day the man or woman with the gun will not be a peaceful citizen exercising their rights, but rather the next Lee Harvey Oswald or Squeaky Fromme or John Hinckley, and then the rage of years of pent up anger will be unstoppable on both sides of the arguments. Mob mentality also works like that.

I believe that the 2nd Amendment has a place in the public life of a free nation, but it does not give free license in a free nation to provoke mob violence or to give cover to those who would do so. The 2nd Amendment was written at a time in history where it had meanings that were both practical and necessary.

Today we have a standing military and we do not hunt for our food except by choice or in some cases, necessity. We do not have to defend our homes from invasive troops nor our lands from imminent attack by other nations while our troops are stationed elsewhere. No hunter needs military grade fire-arms and not citizen needs to carry a gun to a public forum to be heard. People who become violent and disruptive at public events are removed, and if they hurt someone they are arrested.

It is time to stop using the 2nd Amendment as an excuse to control the mob mentality, and it is up to us as citizens in a free society to make sure that this happens by demanding that those who carry guns to such forums be removed from them until they leave the guns at home.

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Treason
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Posted by: chirho33 on Aug 24, 2009 10:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is treason, these gun-nuts showing up at a presidential event. If that had been liberals during the Bush era, they would have been shot dead and Cheney would have declared a "victory" in the "war on terror", not to mention the imposition of martial law so the Busheviks could go after "domestic terrorists". Gun control is a dead issue now, thanks to right-wing shout radio, but those gun-nuts are the best argument yet for some kind of gun control. By the way, Mr. Rich, it's the John Birch Society, not the John Burke Society.

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» RE: Treason Posted by: Harpdog

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What a Load Part 2-the crushing of the ankle biters
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Posted by: FreeAmerica on Aug 24, 2009 11:04 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nation destroying treasonists? Where do you get that? I would think that klinton selling missile technology to the chins or obanma trying to run over the constitution by sending organized thugs after citizens might qualify.

Maybe obama's attempt at assembling an army of civilian brownshirts "..as powerful and well funded as the military" might be treason. It is certainly anti-constitutional. Standing up for individual rights is not quite treason, of course unless it goes against the dems.

Yes klinton and obama are uneducated. So is the blathering (havaad educated) al franken. They suckered some other liberals into giving them now meaningless sheepskins, but it does not mean that they are educated.

You might also want to provide a link that proves obama went to school at all, or for that matter, even has a past over 10 years. FActcheck.org is an annenberg/obama site, don't bother posting that propaganda.

It seems that he didn't release any school records at all. Most likely because he is a dumb-ass with worse grades than bush or kerry, and only passed on the wagon of equal opportunity, and was financed by extremist anti-Americans and dealing coke. Prove me wrong.

As long as you are supposedly intellectually superior, quick, without looking, what does Federalist #24 say about this whole town hall thing?

Speaking of people that can't assemble a sentence, ever see obama without his teleprompter? He sputters worse than bush and is dumber than biden.

Beyond your petty ankle biter attacks...

I have lost not only the last election, but at least the last 6. I loathe repugs as much as anyone here, and klinton and obama are fucking nazis, you know, national socialists. Calling repugs nazis only shows your lack of education and ample hate. The nazis were socialists, eugenicist racists, and environmentalists, just like our democrats.

People making the argument that being part of the military is the key to gun ownership do not know their history. Should you actually go back and read what the framers said, it was very much an individual right.

Likewise, can you name any other rights in the bill of rights that are group rights rather than the individual rights? Should the first amendment only apply to the press and liberal group talking points? No it is an individual right. Is the right against unlawful search and seizure a group right only for the military? No, it is an individual right. How about suffrage? Group or individual? Individual. All of them are. Even the second.

As far as the guy saying that we needed guns in frontier days to fend off wild animals and hunt, some of us still do that. In my back land, there are bears, wolves, and cougars that liberals forced on us, competing with me for food, and sometimes thinking that I am dinner. In an emergency the cops can be here in 45 minutes to an hour if they do 100+mph. I shouldn't be able to defend myself? Maybe that works in your city-boy apartment complex, but not out here in the other 95% of the US, AKA the real world.

This isn't about guns, it is about obama ( and your) extremist anti-constitutional agenda being rejected by the masses, and all respect for him and your radical agenda lost within 9 months of total democrat power. You wanted to force your agenda anyway by sending in thugs, and were met with armed opposition, just like the framers envisioned.

The only difference between now and then? In the old days there would have been a lot of SEIU and ACORN corpses to clean up. Today we are much more restrained with our firearm use. That is probably good news for constitution hating people like you guys.

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» Water the flowers ? Posted by: That_SOB
» Nazi environmentalism Posted by: xvet

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Why is a New York yankee allowed to trash the rights of law abiding gun owners?
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Posted by: WYGunston on Aug 24, 2009 11:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I own firearms and if I had to attend a political rally, I'd carry them concealed. It ain't the law abiding gun owners that pose a threat. It's Congress and the insurance corporations who are taking away our rights to health care. Idiots !

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Militias
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Posted by: aonghus36 on Aug 24, 2009 11:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Militias have been rising since at least the 2nd term of Dubya. When the right wingers figured out that Bush wasn't somebody you should want to have a beer with, and was indeed using them and/or their children for their rich man's war in Iraq, they started arming. They tend to call themselves "Goldwater Conservatives". This would be as opposed to be a "Neocon". The militias are simply getting more attention now, as they are growing. They are anti-new world order, but know it can come in a right-wing or left-wing form. Political party would be just a front to the nwo.

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A Pro-Gunner chimes in
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Posted by: Axiom69 on Aug 24, 2009 11:43 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a "pro-gunner". I own a variety of firearms and support an individuals right to "keep and bear arms". That being said bringing a weapon to a Presidential event is pure political theatre. I believe in open and concealed carry but would NOT carry to a place where the President was regardless of which party was in office. Just as I don't carry when I go to the airport. Do they have the "right" to do it? Yes. Should they? No. End of story.

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» RE: A Pro-Gunner chimes in Posted by: djnoll

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On the brink of explosion
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Posted by: maxfrisson on Aug 24, 2009 12:01 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think if you read all these posts the one thing you must agree is there is a great deal of anger and fear on both sides. I feel we are about one incident away from South American-style civil unrest. Groups of insurgents controlling sections of the nation. States-rights will be the next issue.

If HR3200 had been explicitly outlined by Obama in Oct. 2008, an old white guy would be President and we would be one heart attack away from a Palin Presidency. Try that for scary!

Most GOPers would be appalled by me, atheist, pornographer and cannabis consumer. But I trust Barry O and his crew even less than I do Xian moralists.

I bought 1000 .410 shells in couple different loads in the last 3 months. I have the Taurus steel-framed Judge that takes the 3" shells and a BOND Snake Slayer. Both bought at gun shows for cash and unregistered anywhere. I suggest you do the same.

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» crap.. Posted by: Drclaw

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The Illogical Lunacy Of The Right
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Posted by: desidid on Aug 24, 2009 12:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Guns don't kill people! People do! Guess what cars don't drive themselves into people! People do! Stating the obvious isn't defending a position or mounting a reasoned response to anything.

President Obama worked with Bill Ayers. Yeah Nixon worked with Halderman, Erlichman, John Mitchell, G. Gordon Liddy and other subversive law breakers. Reagan worked with Oliver North who ran the Iran-Contra scandal out of the basement of the White House. And where do we begin with Bush, Cheney, and Rove lying us into a war. Clearly Republican children must be lobotimized at birth; since they don't recognize it is much worst for the President to order or condone crimes from the White House, than it is to know someone who has committed a crime.

Right wing zealots must carry guns to town hall meetings because their Constitutional rights are being violated. Which right would that be exactly?

Right wing zealots don't accept or want socialized programs. Except unemployment, SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, disability, food stamps, WIC, HUD, and grants. But that is where they draw the line anything else is just plain commie talk!!!!!

Right wing zealots who become hysterical at town halls like to include the entire audience in their rant as if they were elected to speak for more than themselves. Oh sorry I forgot it is us liberals who assume we are speaking for the masses.

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» RE: The Illogical Lunacy Of The Right Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: The Illogical Lunacy Of The Right Posted by: Walks-in-Storms

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I want to thank the Reich-wingers of America
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Posted by: aahpat on Aug 24, 2009 1:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for their vociferous defense of my left-wing Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. Each and every day they give me more reason to.

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SECRET SERVICE's REFUSAL TO ARREST IS A "GREEN LIGHT"
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Posted by: AlwaysAskWhy on Aug 24, 2009 1:49 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SECRET SERVICE's REFUSAL TO ARREST IS A "GREEN LIGHT"

Since, for eight years anyone who wore an objectionable t-shirt was ejected from any Bush event, and arrested and prosecuted, it can only be surmised that the Secret Service, by REFUSING TO ARREST folks openly toting guns at an Obama event, is CLEARLY GIVING A GREEN LIGHT TO VIOLENCE AGAINST BARACK OBAMA, THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

I would guess that Obama and his family understand that THIS IS A WARNING.

I FEEL WARNED, AS WELL.

Not only is racism still alive and well in this country, but the class war: on intellectualism, on democracy, on the poor, on education (must preserve SERF-DOM), is also alive and well.

BELIEVE IT.

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Does the Truth Mean Anything
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Posted by: bandofotters on Aug 24, 2009 1:51 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can so many people posting here be blind to the simple fact that no one has brought any guns to any recent town hall meeting? Having a gun in one's car or carrying a gun beyond the radius of concern by the Secret Service does not sound like people bringing guns to town halls nor does it sound like intimidation especially when one has to go home and turn on the news to hear about what they missed.

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what a froth what a frenzy
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Posted by: percipi22 on Aug 24, 2009 1:52 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It strikes me how we can work ourselves into a regular froth as I read the previous 250 and some posts. How in sam hell are we to discuss anything at all with everyone right and left waving guns or threats of guns or violence, and bringing up the worst of our past as badges of honor or horror. I am tired.
A lifetime of war, assasinations, blood and bombings. Secret plots by capitalists to kill leaders raid social programs. The hatred of anyone not white, christian and male. (or male and islam) take your pick; (male and jewish) (black and just trained to hate) And the women who love them all hating and beating their chests. egad. Everyone is able to justify their victimhood and victimize with impunity. Grow up. or not. evolve or not. And if no one cares what happens to you after you shoot your way to that "safe" world you want, so be it

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Which comes closer to insurrection?
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Posted by: aahpat on Aug 24, 2009 1:55 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans and their political leaders gather to peacefully and respectfully discuss public policy differences.

Gun toting bullies coming to peaceful public policy discussions carrying assault weapons.

They didn't win the election.

They couldn't steal the election.

So they pick up their guns and they threaten insurrection.

Bringing together the Second Amendment and the Jeffersonian quote about the blood of patriots and tyrants and then declaring any politician a tyrant who does not echo your political views is a threat of assassination directed at all American politicians. Reich-wingers know this and have been using this tactic on American politicians ever since the 1960's. And throughout that time.

The Reich wingers know what they are doing. They firmly believe that there is a Second Amendment right to threaten politicians with assassination by simply declaring the politicians tyrants. This is why American politicians, especially Democrats, have become more and more right-wing in the past forty years. Coercion and intimidation by right-wing Second Amendment extremists has driven American politicians to the right.

I have often debated these Reich-wingers on these issues. They go on about how the Second Amendment will save America from tyrant politicians. American Reich-wingers firmly believe that the Second Amendment is a license from our founding fathers to assassinate America's elected political leaders and to wage war on the government of the United States.

So I ask them some specific questions about the tyrant declaration.

Who gets to declare a politician or government tyrannical?

Who decides which elected leaders of America need to be assassinated for tyranny?

Who gets to say when it is time to take up arms against the elected government of the United States?

Can the left-wing make the declaration of tyrant or is that only a right-wing Second Amendment right?

Who defines tyranny in a democratic and constitutional nation?


Variations on these questions always shut up the Second Amendment nuts. They call me a tyrant or a communist and run away from the discussion.

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GUNS, MEXICO, THE NRA - FAILED WAR ON DRUGS/TERROR is NOT AN ACCIDENT
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Posted by: AlwaysAskWhy on Aug 24, 2009 1:59 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IT'S NOT AN ACCIDENT THAT THE WARs ON TERROR AND DRUGS ARE A COMPLETE FAILURE.

THAT WAS THE PLAN. There's no profit in stopping them, now, is there?

Those who yell the loudest should be the first object of investigation.

And it should begin with Wayne LaPierre, EVP of th