COMMENTS: 71
We Need Clear Thinking: There Should Be No Clash Between Public Option and Single Payer
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There appears to be a deep divide within the progressive movement over how to fix health care -- a sometimes nasty food-fight between advocates of a public insurance option and those who favor a "single-payer" system.
This split is diverting progressive energy from what is probably the most important domestic policy decision of our time. As Washington Post columnist Harold Meyerson noted, while there is extensive institutional support for a public insurance option, there's little "street heat." Progressives seem to be too busy arguing amongst themselves to apply effective pressure to sold-out lawmakers who are protecting insurance companies' profits.
But the public insurance/single-payer rift is a false dichotomy, and it is distracting us from the real fight. Most systems that people think of as single-payer really aren’t. Something approaching single-payer exists in Canada, Australia and the U.K. But even in these countries, buying supplemental insurance from private insurers is commonplace.
Has Any Country Gotten "Profits out of Health Care"?
The reality is that virtually every advanced, wealthy country features a universal system -- we're the exception -- that is financed through a blend of public and private means. See, for example, this Wikipedia entry about the health care systems in Holland, Germany and Belgium -- all of which are commonly referred to as single-payer systems, but in fact have "multiple payers but with some single-payer features." Those features include: universal coverage regardless of citizens' ability to pay, heavy state regulation and either the ability to bargain for the best prices from providers or have prices set by the government.
So, if you're a single-payer advocate (like I am) the question arises: Wouldn't you be happy to have something like Germany's system? When I lived in Berlin in the early 1990s, I had an accident, broke a bone and went to the ER without insurance. They X-rayed it, set it and gave me a bunch of happy pills to take home. Total bill: $10.
Then there is the Cadillac of health care systems -- the French model. Would we be poorly served with something like the system that scores the highest among industrialized countries in most measures of patient satisfaction, access, longevity, child mortality, etc.? Of course not.
The French enjoy guaranteed, quality health care from cradle to grave that is financed, in large part, through tax revenues. However, it is not a single-payer system.Thirty-five percent of French hospital beds are in private facilities; over 9 in 10 French citizens have supplemental insurance and, as this backgrounder explains, "About 75 percent of the total health expenditures are covered by the public health insurance system. A part of the balance is paid directly by the patients and the other part by private health insurance companies that are hired individually or in group."
When we talk about single-payer, what we're really saying is that guaranteeing access to decent health care -- just like sanitation and clean water or electricity -- should be considered a fundamental duty of the state. But from that point, there's no reason I can see to exclude the private sector entirely. We regulate utilities that provide those other vital services, and limit their profit margins, but we don't rely on the government alone to deliver our electricity.
In France, "The state sees that the whole population has access to care; it dictates the types of care that are reimbursed, and to what degree, and what the role is of the different participating entities. The state is in charge of protecting patients' rights, elaborating policies and enforcing them. It is responsible for public safety."
That sounds fine to me, even though I identify as a single-payer advocate.
And the reason this is more than a semantic point is straightforward: The proposal before us today would, if done right -- and the devil is most certainly in the details -- achieve a hybrid public-private system with "some single-payer features," much like what citizens of other liberal democracies enjoy.
Put another way, the idea of getting "private profit" out of health care, while perhaps appealing on ideological grounds, doesn't reflect what the rest of the world has done. A more practical goal is addressing our shortcomings, in part by shifting the balance between the public and private delivery of health care. Currently, the United States ranks dead last among the wealthiest nations in terms of the portion of our health dollars spent on public health.

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Posted by: tmullins on Jul 13, 2009 1:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Dept of Healthland Security
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: mmckinl on Jul 13, 2009 1:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Through one provider standardization of billing, records, diagnosis and treatment can be accomplished eliminating duplication, defensive medicine, a myriad of different billing and treatment approval procedures freeing doctors to diagnose and treat.
What we do know is that by eliminating health insurance companies from basic health care and bargaining with private health care providers and drug companies the other G8 countries spend 60% less on their health care, while covering everybody and getting better outcomes ...
Should the public want extra coverage then they should have that option but everybody in the country should get medical care with few and small deductibles for treatment and drugs.
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» RE: Major Political Problem
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: billslm on Jul 13, 2009 2:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So the question arises, what is the source of their authority that it ain't gonna happen. Ralph then goes to the answer: "Simple. Big Money doesn't want it. And that is who rules the US of A."
So don't be surprised if Congress calls a press conference to announce the greatest moment in the history of Health Care and Ta-Da...it sounds like the same old shit.
We must ask ouselves why. Because by now we know that even the Dems we sent to Congress to fight our battles cannot, and worse, will not deliver on their mandates. Many of them are Blue Dogs to start with. Repukes in Dems clothing. But also, they are given their marching orders once they arrive in DC. It is called Orientation.
"You vote as you are told to vote or else." If they can't find some dirt on you to create a scandal with---they think nothing of making it up and "leaking it" to the press.
If, as a voter, you don't call your Senator and your Representative every week, at least once a week, and hold their feet to the fire, you don't deserve a decent Health Care Bill.
Everybody who did not vote for Dennis Kucinich should leave the room anyway. He was the only candidate who has the balls to call a spade a spade. Obama did not and does not! Sorry to say that, because I voted for him, too.
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» It Ain't Gonna Happen! because
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: It Ain't Gonna Happen! or Is It?
Posted by: grinrevere
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Posted by: SkeeterVT1 on Jul 13, 2009 3:03 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why? Because it would never survive legal challenges.
"Single-payer" means, quite literally, one entity paying for everyone's health care costs. Unfortunately, that legally constitutes a monopoly, which is not permissible under existing law in the U.S.
A 100 percent private single-payer system would violate the anti-monopoly provisions of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. A 100 percent public single-payer system would violate the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution by putting all private health care systems -- both for-profit and non-profit -- out of business.
Contrary to popular belief, neither Medicare nor Medicaid are "single-payer" health-care systems. To the contrary, there are literally scores of private, so-called "Medigap" systems for senior citizens -- including one run by AARP -- that often cover mediacal issues and expenses that Medicare does not cover. And there are literally hundreds of free to low-cost private health clinics across the country that serve low-income and/or otherwise uninsured or under-insured Americans (One of the most famous is the now-legendary Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic in San Francisco).
A mix of public and private health-care system is the best health care reform that can realistically be achieved in America. Direct competition between public and private is really the only way to get health-care costs down.
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» Bulloney
Posted by: bthespoon
» Good of the Whole Society vs.
Posted by: bthespoon
» your reasoning is symantecs... theres literally hundreds of single-desks models to look at...
Posted by: Bearzerker
» The Sherman Antitrust Act is dead
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Semantics
Posted by: oregoncharles
» your legalese arguments are ridiculous
Posted by: cplot
Comments are closed-
Posted by: eridani on Jul 13, 2009 4:13 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unlike health insurance, life insurance is highly competitive and co-exists well with Social Security survivors' benefits. The crucial fact here is that everyone who works must pay FICA, even if they look at SS survivors' benefits and decide they want more income for their kids than that. Neither the life insurance companies nor those who buy their products take anything away from the pool of money that provides for widow(er)s and orphans who can't afford those products.
In all other developed countries, private health insurance is strictly an add-on. It supplements government insurance; it does not compete directly. And it is NOT allowed to deny basic health care to anybody, to cherry-pick, to have preferred provider lists, or to rescind policies.
Naturally the health insurance industry is going to hate that every bit as much as outright abolishement, given that life insurance profit margins are much more like those of supermarkets than the ripoff excesses that they have grown accustomed to.
The point of making this argument is to reassure those who think they have (and may actually have) a plan that provides more than a single payer comprehensive plan that they are free to add on (or ask their employers to add on) any bells and whistles that they want to add. Doing the math--
Comprehensive single payer benefit
+ add ons out of pocket or from private insurance
= Way, way less than anyone is paying right now
Just from my own experience, my COBRA is $450/month, but the Washington Health Security Trust (state level single payer proposal) can get me more than I'm getting now in coverage for $75-$100 a month. $350/mo is far more than I'd probably spend on extras. More affluent people would thus be getting far more than they are getting now, without draining the pool of health care dollars providing for those who can't afford the bells and whistles.
A “public option” could be anything. It could be run like a single payer program, allowing any individual or employer to enroll and having similar cost controls. But even under the best conditions, it saves only 9% compared to single payer.
Or it might be designed as a dumping ground for poor and sick people, allowing insurance companies to make even more profit diverting money from healthy people to their own bottom lines and away from paying for actual care. This is totally unacceptable.
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» RE: That's the problem.
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Jul 13, 2009 4:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second, another thought that occurred to me was that the public option is opposed for different reasons. The public plan is scary to the medical monopoly for obvious reasons. A public plan should be scary to the rest of us because the last thing we need is complete gov't control over healthcare. At least until the systemic problems are solved so that the monopoly or political interests can't tell you what to do with your body.
Go to www.acam.org. Find a physician in your area who practices nutritional medicine. Ask if they evaluate for gut pH. If not, move on. If so, keep investigating.
The unholy alliances of our corporate state have suffocated all attempts to actually heal people without sending them into bankruptcy.
Don't want to change doctors? Search Bec5, vitamin D deficiency (see www,vitamindcouncil.org--a website started by a physician who couldn't believe his profession was suppressing and ignoring the data--e.g, ties to MS, and other auto-immune disorders, fractures, cognitive decline etc., etc.,), stomach acid and disease.
Need more info? Pay $49 for a 1 year subscription to Nutrition and Healing written by a physician with 35 years of experience in his family medicine practice.
www.wrightnewsletter.com. You will get access to archives going back to 2000. Start searching. Forget stomach acid search. You will get only mainstream medical opinion. Those that treat symptoms and not root causes.
On a good note, HR 676 is not involved in health care decisions, and pays for any state licensed advanced health care professional of your choice. That includes NDs (except for retrograde Ohio which doesn't recognize NDs). If the pols did not put greed and corruption before principle, they would understand single payer. Unfortunately, in a society where Mammon is worshiped like mad, higher priority will be given towards shielding Big Insurance/Pharma and the corporate trial lawyers who are vehemently opposed to single payer health care first.
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» RE: Society's toxic alliances of greed, corruption, corporatism, and public apathy need to be addressed.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Society's toxic alliances of greed, corruption, corporatism, and public apathy need to be addressed.
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Society's toxic alliances of greed, corruption, corporatism, and public apathy need to be addres
Posted by: grinrevere
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Posted by: Moonray on Jul 13, 2009 4:43 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we had honest, well-meaning public officials, our health care system would be much better. But our system is set up to reward the dishonest and incompetent, and that's what we get. This ongoing corruption in our government is at the bottom of all the rancor over current legislative proposals. And let's face it: Not much will change for the better until we get rid of our entrenched two-party system and change the climate of exploitation and corruption that flourishes in Washington and in our state capitals. Deep down, that's why we're all so frustrated. We need to change the whole damn system.
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Posted by: kip sullivan on Jul 13, 2009 5:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He makes four mistakes. (1) He misunderstands what a single-payer is. (2) He fails to hold the "public option" wing of the universal coverage movement accountable for supporting a feeble version of a PO that will get its ass kicked by the insurance industry and delay rather than hasten the day we get to a single-payer. (3) Because he fails to consider what will happen if the PO is feeble, he ignores the awful fact that the legislation supported by the PO movement amounts to a bailout for the insurance industry. (4) He says the multiple-payer PO wing and the single-payer wing can agree on some managed care mythology promoted by the insurance industry and the computer industry, including "payment reform" and converting all paper records to electronic medical records.
I will comment on the first three errors.
Joshua's argument goes like this: he's a single-payer supporter, but there is no such thing as a single-payer, and what we really mean when we say "single payer" "is that guaranteeing access to decent health care ... should be considered a fundamental duty of the state." This is like saying there really is no difference between paying Halliburton exorbitant fees to feed the troops in Iraq and having the US Army feed the troops, and all we we really need to ask is, Should we consider it a "fundamental duty of the state" to make sure the troops get fed?
The statement that it is a fundamental duty of the government to provide all Americans with access to good health care is not debatable. But it sheds no light on the question, How do we make that happen?
A single-payer system or program is one in which one insurer pays providers directly (not through insurance companies) FOR THE COVERED SERVICES FOR THE COVERED POPULATION. The traditional Medicare program is thus a single-payer system even though the coverage has holes in it so big most seniors buy supplemental coverage, and even though Medicare only covers 45 million of our 300+ million citizens.
Because traditional Medicare does not funnel tax dollars through insurance companies, it is the most efficient health insurance program in America. If we could extend Medicare to all Americans (after filling in its holes), we could achieve universal coverage and reduce total spending at the same time.
The "public option" now being discussed in the Senate HELP committee won't save a dime and will probably be eaten alive by the insurance industry. The same almost certainly applies to the feeble little PO being discussed in the House.
Joshua and the PO movement fail to apprise their followers that when they say "public option," what they really mean is "a public program plus an immense insurance industry bailout if the public program remains small or is destroyed by the insurance industry." The bills being drafted now in Congress by Democrats are expected to cost at least $1 trillion over the next decade. All or most of that will go into the insurance industry's coffers if the public program turns out to be a feeble little thing that is quickly destroyed by the insurance industry or, at best, enrolls only a fraction of the non-elderly and then fails to grow any bigger.
The insurance industry is the single most powerful opponent of single-payer legislation in America. Feeding a river of cash to the insurance industry is the equivalent of opposing single-payer.
To borrow a phrase from the title of Joshua's piece, the multiple-payer-PO wing needs to engage in some "clear thinking" about health care reform.
Kip Sullivan
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» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: Svejk
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: kip sullivan
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: kip sullivan
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: kip sullivan
» This is why I love AlterNet
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: Joshua Holland
Comments are closed-
Posted by: redbridge on Jul 13, 2009 6:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Insurance is a lottery.
Say two lotteries exist. Both must pay out the same amount at the same frequency. Both have the same number of participants who must buy the same number of chances.
Lottery A is comprised of the general populace. Lottery B is comprised of the well-to-do. Which lottery will fail first?
Get the right package the first time. Or the Insurance Industry - and the GOP - will eat it for lunch.
If this is truly a battle - and I think it is - we need to recognize our enemy. They will continue their attempt to destroy whatever plan is passed. A watered down compromise is an easy mark for the insurance companies. Remember that these mega-corps have not only their usual lobbying budgets available for war, but can also add their marketing budgets to the campaign. Finally, before they concede decades of financial opulence, they will resort to using their profit - a weapon of some magnitude.
There is either Public Health COVERAGE or there is not. An option here is not a viable option. If we haven't the courage to tell the Insurance Industry it's 'game over' there isn't much point, in my opinion.
Private supplemental coverage, okay. Private option pointless.
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Jul 13, 2009 7:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But worse is that by painting HR 676 as a Single payer bill which would create immediate vast changes scares the hell out of the middle, and certianly the paranoid Far Right. Although enjoyable, the right wings fear mongering rings true to their base and 'Fencers' merely by the over stated claims by the Single payer advocates. Proponents should be assuring others this bill has a process, which will address not only the transitional manangerial procedures,but also the economic ramifications (employment)...But Not the Medical serivces.
Why are Lefites not doing Ads showing the Shit Americans already go through working their way through the current For Profit System. The up front costs, the hidden costs, the wait time, the restricitons and the gatekeeping.
We may need to give up our warm fuzzy empathy driven campaigns and institute the more poignant and universal 'Pissed Off' Campaign. Americans already have version of 'Manged Care'- their called HMO's and PPO's. A Gov't system would be no different in the basic configuration, and cost effective goals. They would merely allow US, "We the People" to step on the other side of the Marketplace table.
Instead of being merely the labor providing the services or the customer buying the policy- We would be Hanging Our Own Shingle out for business.
Beyond that we also need to educate the public on the fact we already pay for the uninsured. So increased cost to tax payers is a blatant lie.Not only when we pay our Co payes, buy our meds, and pay taxes, but everytime we pay all our premiums(health,auto,home, life..). The cost of healthcare for the uninsured has been swept under the rug (hidden) like Bush's War Cost. Not just morally do we need to bring these folks out of the healthcare shadows- we need to do it for economic reasons. We can not improve our economy effectively if we are oblivious of some of the main costs.Ignoring the elderly, the chronically ill, the poor..Will not make them go away, nor cost less. Infact the current lack of oversight regarding this reality only makes it more susceptable to abuse and corruption.
WE are already well versed in the downside of managed care and paying for the uninsured, while the Corps pick our pockets. that is the message the Left must drive home.
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Posted by: drricklippin on Jul 13, 2009 7:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The generally spineless congress will come alomg kicking and screaming but come along they will and they must.
Because close to three quarters of Americans want meaningful long overdue change.
The days of tinkering are over. This is Obama's key domestic issue and he knows his presidency is at stake on health care reform.
And I believe he also wants to do right by the American public.
The immorality and embarrassment of the failed US model of excessive profiteering off of human sufferring is over
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: HEALTH CARE REFORM WILL HAPPEN
Posted by: DCostello2
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Posted by: jstepp590 on Jul 13, 2009 8:23 AM
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» RE: That's what he says is impossible.
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 13, 2009 8:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take a piece of paper. Fold it vertically in half. Make the left half the "why we should" side, and the "why we shouldn't" side, the right one. Start with the left:
1. Single-payer universal health care is NON-PROFIT.
2. Single-payer univerasl care WORKS, and much better than the mess WE have.
3. Every country with this system is ahead of us in one or more category, even Cuba.
4. This isn't something we have to go into blindly; there are many models out there to emulate, all of which WORK.
5. The thought of us being in a category by ourselves is a LIE, fostered by the very criminals opposing any public option.
5. Those who oppose SPUHC are bad people who should NOT be patronized or encouraged in any way, nor should their voices be listened to.
6. About forty six million people who have NO coverage at present would no longer have to worry about their survival.
Now, for the right side:
1. We should just leave things as they are, because everything's just peachy,; we're Number One, after all.
2. We don't need other countries telling us anything about us sucks.
3. We can TRUST those good folks who own the drug and insurance companies; they're our friends, and everything will be just fine.
4. Item four just won't materialize. Hell, one through three were a stretch.
Now, which side looks better to you? Tell our elected representatives what you think. It's EASY, and effective if done by enough of us.
Benjie would be proud.
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» RE: Benjie baby
Posted by: WomanforPeace/Sanity
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jul 13, 2009 9:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For those that continue to blather about - choice & free markets - the public option is a no-brainer! If you currently enjoy private insurance than continue with it - but you too just might get a break on your premiums, prescriptions, and deductibles - that's a win, no! Why because in order to keep your business - the industry must compete and therefore your prices will be lowered! People, wake up it is past time that we all get vocal and speak up for what is best for us all, now and our future generations!
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Posted by: bandz on Jul 13, 2009 9:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
President Obama has opted not to press for a full single-payer system knowing that a fierce smear campaign against it would be mounted by the powerful health insurance, HMO and pharmaceutical companies that fear it would mean less financial profit for them. He has, instead put forward a compromise plan that would allow those with private insurance plans to keep them if they wish, but would create a public, not-for-profit option - similar to medicare - for those who would prefer such a plan or are without any health care insurance. Here are the major advantages of such a plan:
1] We would have a free choice. Keep your private insurance if you want, but be able to choose a high quality [and far less expensive] public insurance plan if you wish.
2] If you choose the public option, you would still be able to choose your own doctors and hospitals.
3] Everyone would save money. The public plan would be focused on providing care, instead of maximizing profits, and won’t need to be concerned with CEO salaries and bonuses, shareholder dividends or excessive advertising. That would result in big savings, even for those with private plans as those insurers would need to lower their rates in an effort to compete.
4] The public option will always be available and, unlike private insurers, will not be able to deny you coverage or drop you from their rolls.
5] The public option will be universal, and those with “pre-existing” medical conditions, or struggling to make ends meet will not be denied coverage.
The public option choice is essential to the success of a new healthcare plan. I’m a believer in choice. The far right-wing radicals, led by the well funded private insurance and drug companies, will oppose giving us the right to choose. Why? The reason should be obvious.
They fear -- with good cause I believe -- that once available, most Americans will choose the public option and their outrageously high profits will decrease. They will rely on tactics of fear -- such as phony scare-words like "socialized medicine" -- to try to frighten us away from the public option plan.
Don’t be fooled by the radical right-wing scare campaign. Support the best plan. Support the public option . It's not perfect, but it's good enough.
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» RE: Public Option: An OK Compromise
Posted by: kip sullivan
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Posted by: WomanforPeace/Sanity on Jul 13, 2009 9:39 AM
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Posted by: Joshua Holland on Jul 13, 2009 9:44 AM
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Apologies.
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» RE: pic screw-up
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» RE: pic screw-up
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: wwittman on Jul 13, 2009 10:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And just as the "blue skies initiative" meant "let's protect the coal industry", a lot of talk about "public options" is code for "let's hand the system over to the same insurance companies that are gouging us all NOW."
Never mind the semantic wrangling over how single the single payer would be.
An 'option' that isn't paid for 100# out of taxes and given to every citizen as a right, ISN'T a public option.
it's another corporate give away.
and for that matter, none of the public WANTS "options".
I don't have a police dept option, or a fire dept option or an FDA option.
the government just taxes me and provides a service.
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» RE: yeah, but what IS a "public option?"
Posted by: cplot
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Posted by: jacksmith on Jul 13, 2009 10:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It’s official. America and the World are now in a GLOBAL PANDEMIC. A World EPIDEMIC with potential catastrophic consequences for ALL of the American people. The first PANDEMIC in 41 years. And WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES will have to face this PANDEMIC with the 37th worst quality of healthcare in the developed World.
STAND READY AMERICA TO SEIZE CONTROL OF YOUR NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.
We spend over twice as much of our GDP on healthcare as any other country in the World. And Individual American spend about ten times as much out of pocket on healthcare as any other people in the World. All because of GREED! And the PRIVATE FOR PROFIT healthcare system in America.
And while all this is going on, some members of congress seem mostly concern about how to protect the corporate PROFITS! of our GREED DRIVEN, PRIVATE FOR PROFIT NATIONAL DISGRACE. A PRIVATE FOR PROFIT DISGRACE that is in fact, totally valueless to the public health. And a detriment to national security, public safety, and the public health.
Progressive democrats the Tri-Caucus and others should stand firm in their demand for a robust government-run public option for all Americans, with all of the minimum requirements progressive democrats demanded. If congress can not pass a robust public option with at least 51 votes and all robust minimum requirements, congress should immediately move to scrap healthcare reform and request that President Obama declare a state of NATIONAL HEALTHCARE EMERGENCY! Seizing and replacing all PRIVATE FOR PROFIT health insurance plans with the immediate implementation of National Healthcare for all Americans under the provisions of HR676 (A Single-payer National Healthcare Plan For All).
Coverage can begin immediately through our current medicare system. With immediate expansion through recruitment of displaced workers from the canceled private sector insurance industry. Funding can also begin immediately by substitution of payroll deductions for private insurance plans with payroll deductions for the national healthcare plan. This is what the vast majority of the American people want. And this is what all objective experts unanimously agree would be the best, and most cost effective for the American people and our economy.
In Mexico on average people who received medical care for A-H1N1 (Swine Flu) with in 3 days survived. People who did not receive medical care until 7 days or more died. This has been the same results in the US. But 50 million Americans don’t even have any healthcare coverage. And at least 200 million of you with insurance could not get in to see your private insurance plans doctors in 2 or 3 days, even if your life depended on it. WHICH IT DOES!
If President Obama has to declare a NATIONAL STATE OF EMERGENCY to rescue the American people from our healthcare crisis, he will need all the sustained support you can give him. STICK WITH HIM! He’s doing a brilliant job.
THIS IS THE BIG ONE!
THE BATTLE OF GOOD Vs EVIL!
Join the fight.
Contact congress and your representatives NOW! AND SPREAD THE WORD!
(http://action.firedoglake.com/page/s/publicoption) (http://www.actblue.com/page/healthcareheroes)
God Bless You
Jacksmith – WORKING CLASS
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» Please watch this important 60 Minutes episode on the 1976 Swine Flu
Posted by: CRaPWHiSPeReR
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Posted by: oregoncharles on Jul 13, 2009 11:51 AM
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I think the arguments against even a public-option plan are well known - some are revisited above. We need a detailed exposition of the kind of public option that avoids those problems (such as, I can't really afford to pay for health insurance, even far less than the private companies would charge me. What do you do about me - which is a lot of people?)
I confess, I haven't read the plan that you advocate, and I may not get to it (reposting a link might help.) In any case, an explanation would be very helpful. Once again: how does this turn into the equivalent of single payer? Why isn't it just a dumping ground? Why is that more likely than outright Medicare-for-all?
Do we really think the insurance lobbyists are STUPID?
Ball in your court, Joshua. I have faith in your expository powers. This piece is essentially a preface to your explanation of the "Hacker" plan.
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Posted by: Joshua Holland on Jul 13, 2009 11:57 AM
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Here's the link to the Hacker plan.
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» RE: First Problem:
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: First Problem:
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: I wasn't clear - in too much of a hurry.
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: warrior woman on Jul 13, 2009 12:46 PM
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July 8, 2009
The Health Care Crisis: Letters from Vermont and America
By Bernie Sanders at
http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Health-Care-Crisis
-Le-by-Bernie-Sanders-090708-190.html
Tort report: http://www.citizen.org/documents/NPDB_Report_200907.pdf
This portion of the healthcare dollar isn’t an insignificant amount of money, it’s worth trillions. Having spent 25+ years in insurance and specifically handling malpractice for a part of that time, the ins co's are currently running much less than 100% combined ratio's (premium to losses) which is the magic number which they shoot at, plus or minus a bit depending upon the investment market. Some are operating at 80% combined ratios. Other co' who got out of malpractice are thinking about getting back in because the trends are so good. This means that insurance companies would be forced to reduce malpractice rates and premiums providing relief to drs and hospitals, in particular because it's not an aberation, it's sustained now over a period of 3+ years. Ask an actuary about trending sometime. They can argue one year of good experience away but they will have trouble arguing away trends of this magnitude. In fact, some of the malpractice co's are probably shaking in their boots that they will have to reduce premiums, this reduces their income and would result in layoffs of employees and a loss of significant investment income. Drs should be hollering loud and clear that they expect their rates to be reduced based on this good experience. Healthcare buyers should also expect a bit of relief as a result yet it's unlikely that we would see it. We'd be better off targeting pharmaceuticals and the off the chart growth of this part of the industry.
Conversely, I understand that drs order tests that "protect" them from lawsuits. Yet, others own the machinery that perform the expensive tests and have mortgage payments on the CAT scan machines or MRI's. This also inflates the cost of healthcare. It's a circuitous argument where no one on the outside of healthcare wins. I would very much like to see a single payer option. I've worked with medicare for many years now with family members, it's quite a system that works well with little ovrhead, namely ~2-3% vs the 30+% of the insurance co's. It's at least worth a look, in my opinion.
The media and others have done a good job of making tort reform an issue with their talk of reckless lawsuits when in fact, only a small amount of malpractice cases go to court, similar to any other type of liability claim. Most are settled long before a court case (or on the eve of the court date) when there is negligence involved because the ins co recognizes the liability and pays up. Punitive damages are rarely handed out and when they are, it's usually a very significant negligent act that is the causal reason. Not always, but most of the time. Every now and again you see a court hand out some unreasonable amount but it's usually overturned on appeal and settled back to a more reasonable sum.
As an fyi, the upper midwest has some of the lowest malpractice rates in the country. The north and south east have the worst in the country.
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Posted by: PrimaDiva on Jul 13, 2009 12:54 PM
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» Yeah
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: brashley46 on Jul 13, 2009 4:03 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Elimination of all the private bureaucracies results in a significant cost saving. The "public option", the Clinton plan resurrected, would save no such money, but rather provide corporate welfare for the private insurers. I know what I like, I like what we have here in Ontario; I would fight to preserve it. Don't waste your energy fighting for the socialism-for-the-stockholders "public option".
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Posted by: gophigure on Jul 13, 2009 4:18 PM
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Your post seems to promote the idea that a single payer system is somehow the same as the public option being pursued by some, and that is also inaccurate. In those countries that have a single payer system, there are supplements available and certainly a person (primarily the wealthy) can pay out of pocket for whatever they want to. What you will NOT find in a country with a single payer system are private companies competing with the system OR the ability of people to opt out of the system. Japan did allow the wealthy to opt out and now have realized what a mistake that was. Much like our own Social Security system, if people can opt in or out at their whim, the system cannot function.
No public system can be designed to "compete" with private systems because the private systems will come up looking like bandits every time. If you compare Medicare's administrative cost of around 4% to the typical insurance company's of 15-25%, it becomes obvious that no private company could compete with a government system. That's why the HIAA and PhARMA are waging this battle from within. After their enormously profitable hijacking of the Medicare Part D program, they have discovered this is by far a more profitable and, frankly, cheaper way to fight government health care than going toe-to-toe as they did with the Clintons. They won that battle too, but it was costly and they didn't carve out huge profits as they have done with Part D and will attempt to do with the coming health care "reform".
You will soon find that any government "option" that will be designed with the help of HIAA and PhARMA will be stripped of any ability to compete either by removing benefits or pumping premiums to make them "competitive" with the private sector.
Yes, Virginia, there IS a difference between single payer and the so-called public option. Sadly, however, you are correct that HIAA and PhARMA own the marjority of the Congress and the chance of Senators and Congresspeople going against the very large pocketbooks of these industries is unlikely. I'm not sure what sort of health care collapse it will take before people demand action. The polls are already showing over 60% support for a single payer system but that probably won't overcome the stranglehold these two lobbying groups have on our government. The health of our Congress is just about as bad as the health of our nation.
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Posted by: macrumpton on Jul 13, 2009 4:58 PM
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The only way the insurance companies would ever provide decent universal care would be to regulate them so heavily they might as well be government programs like medicare and social security. If the goal is to provide the best and economical care for everyone, then the profit motive has to be removed from the equation.
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Posted by: misterbaddass on Jul 13, 2009 7:03 PM
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I, and, approximately ten million Americans are currently enrolled in a single payer health plan administered by the U. S. Government which is outstanding.
It is called Tricare!
Active military members and their families are enrolled in this program. Dental plans are also available to them. Retired personnel and their spouses are also a part of Tricare.
When retired members, and spouses, reach the age of sixty-five, they are required to enrolled in Medicare. Then they are enrolled in Tricare-For-Life which is a supplemental plan to Medicare thereby eliminating a Part D of Medicare. A dental plan is also available to the retirees.
Here is how it works for me. I have retained all my doctors, my prescriptions are filled through Rite-Aid, Walgreens etc., and even the local military facility, I have access to the best hospitals in the area, and, my lab test are taken care of under the these plans.
Tricare is never ever mentioned in the discussions of health insurance.
My guess is because it works.
However, do not take my word for it, look Tricare up yourself.
Check out this Alternet link.
http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/141048/
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Posted by: DaBear on Jul 13, 2009 11:57 PM
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Commonplace? tell that to my aunt & uncle, my cousins, their extended families and every other non-relative Canaydun I know.
Frankly on the Canadian system I'd at least have enough coverage I wouldn't be facing homelessness for the second time in three years due to medical-bill induced clusterfucks.
Look, man, when you ain't go nothing something decent like universal single-payer looks pretty damned swanky!
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Posted by: Bayardtom on Jul 14, 2009 1:42 PM
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Posted by: Hirnlego on Jul 14, 2009 3:15 PM
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http://alturl.com/tj4w (hollywood-elsewhere.com)
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» RE: Some Bill Moyers
Posted by: cplot
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Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Jul 15, 2009 2:58 PM
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We are getting ripped off by more than 8 or 9 cents out of every dollar made in the whole United States. I say more because the Swedes get a full retirement out of their 50 cents. The republicans keep telling us that our Social Security is only a supplement to a real retirement. For the life style of most republicans I'm more than assurred that it is only a supplement. For most democrats it is likely their only income upon retirement.
Only one thing more needs added to our health care bill. Money needs to be set aside to build a system of federally owned hospitals run, managed by the NIH. It should be modeled after the very best of the V.A. hospitals. For those persons unable to do a co-pay it would be the relief valve. In the final anaysis the cheapest way to do a thing is to do it yourself. We need to own and operate our own hospitals. We just don't need to be continually dependant on some corporate hospital that is still stretching itself to find a way to rip off the government.
You are likely to say that the government hospitals would go incompetent. I say that that is why we keep open the private hospital choice. The one thing that you and I both want is competence and competition. The one thing the big corporate hospitals don't want is competition. The only way for it to happen is for us to force it.
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Posted by: ekoljos on Jul 18, 2009 2:57 AM
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links of london
Ed Hardy
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Posted by: ekoljos on Jul 18, 2009 9:36 AM
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, bracelet jewelry, eardrop jewelry, necklace jewelry, ring jewelry, finger ring jewelry, earring jewelry.
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Posted by: marson on Jul 31, 2009 3:27 AM
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RC Tank
Tomica
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Posted by: tmullins on Jul 13, 2009 1:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Dept of Healthland Security
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: mmckinl on Jul 13, 2009 1:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Through one provider standardization of billing, records, diagnosis and treatment can be accomplished eliminating duplication, defensive medicine, a myriad of different billing and treatment approval procedures freeing doctors to diagnose and treat.
What we do know is that by eliminating health insurance companies from basic health care and bargaining with private health care providers and drug companies the other G8 countries spend 60% less on their health care, while covering everybody and getting better outcomes ...
Should the public want extra coverage then they should have that option but everybody in the country should get medical care with few and small deductibles for treatment and drugs.
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» RE: Major Political Problem
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: billslm on Jul 13, 2009 2:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So the question arises, what is the source of their authority that it ain't gonna happen. Ralph then goes to the answer: "Simple. Big Money doesn't want it. And that is who rules the US of A."
So don't be surprised if Congress calls a press conference to announce the greatest moment in the history of Health Care and Ta-Da...it sounds like the same old shit.
We must ask ouselves why. Because by now we know that even the Dems we sent to Congress to fight our battles cannot, and worse, will not deliver on their mandates. Many of them are Blue Dogs to start with. Repukes in Dems clothing. But also, they are given their marching orders once they arrive in DC. It is called Orientation.
"You vote as you are told to vote or else." If they can't find some dirt on you to create a scandal with---they think nothing of making it up and "leaking it" to the press.
If, as a voter, you don't call your Senator and your Representative every week, at least once a week, and hold their feet to the fire, you don't deserve a decent Health Care Bill.
Everybody who did not vote for Dennis Kucinich should leave the room anyway. He was the only candidate who has the balls to call a spade a spade. Obama did not and does not! Sorry to say that, because I voted for him, too.
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» It Ain't Gonna Happen! because
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: It Ain't Gonna Happen! or Is It?
Posted by: grinrevere
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Posted by: SkeeterVT1 on Jul 13, 2009 3:03 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why? Because it would never survive legal challenges.
"Single-payer" means, quite literally, one entity paying for everyone's health care costs. Unfortunately, that legally constitutes a monopoly, which is not permissible under existing law in the U.S.
A 100 percent private single-payer system would violate the anti-monopoly provisions of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. A 100 percent public single-payer system would violate the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution by putting all private health care systems -- both for-profit and non-profit -- out of business.
Contrary to popular belief, neither Medicare nor Medicaid are "single-payer" health-care systems. To the contrary, there are literally scores of private, so-called "Medigap" systems for senior citizens -- including one run by AARP -- that often cover mediacal issues and expenses that Medicare does not cover. And there are literally hundreds of free to low-cost private health clinics across the country that serve low-income and/or otherwise uninsured or under-insured Americans (One of the most famous is the now-legendary Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic in San Francisco).
A mix of public and private health-care system is the best health care reform that can realistically be achieved in America. Direct competition between public and private is really the only way to get health-care costs down.
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» Bulloney
Posted by: bthespoon
» Good of the Whole Society vs.
Posted by: bthespoon
» your reasoning is symantecs... theres literally hundreds of single-desks models to look at...
Posted by: Bearzerker
» The Sherman Antitrust Act is dead
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Semantics
Posted by: oregoncharles
» your legalese arguments are ridiculous
Posted by: cplot
Comments are closed-
Posted by: eridani on Jul 13, 2009 4:13 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unlike health insurance, life insurance is highly competitive and co-exists well with Social Security survivors' benefits. The crucial fact here is that everyone who works must pay FICA, even if they look at SS survivors' benefits and decide they want more income for their kids than that. Neither the life insurance companies nor those who buy their products take anything away from the pool of money that provides for widow(er)s and orphans who can't afford those products.
In all other developed countries, private health insurance is strictly an add-on. It supplements government insurance; it does not compete directly. And it is NOT allowed to deny basic health care to anybody, to cherry-pick, to have preferred provider lists, or to rescind policies.
Naturally the health insurance industry is going to hate that every bit as much as outright abolishement, given that life insurance profit margins are much more like those of supermarkets than the ripoff excesses that they have grown accustomed to.
The point of making this argument is to reassure those who think they have (and may actually have) a plan that provides more than a single payer comprehensive plan that they are free to add on (or ask their employers to add on) any bells and whistles that they want to add. Doing the math--
Comprehensive single payer benefit
+ add ons out of pocket or from private insurance
= Way, way less than anyone is paying right now
Just from my own experience, my COBRA is $450/month, but the Washington Health Security Trust (state level single payer proposal) can get me more than I'm getting now in coverage for $75-$100 a month. $350/mo is far more than I'd probably spend on extras. More affluent people would thus be getting far more than they are getting now, without draining the pool of health care dollars providing for those who can't afford the bells and whistles.
A “public option” could be anything. It could be run like a single payer program, allowing any individual or employer to enroll and having similar cost controls. But even under the best conditions, it saves only 9% compared to single payer.
Or it might be designed as a dumping ground for poor and sick people, allowing insurance companies to make even more profit diverting money from healthy people to their own bottom lines and away from paying for actual care. This is totally unacceptable.
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» RE: That's the problem.
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Jul 13, 2009 4:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second, another thought that occurred to me was that the public option is opposed for different reasons. The public plan is scary to the medical monopoly for obvious reasons. A public plan should be scary to the rest of us because the last thing we need is complete gov't control over healthcare. At least until the systemic problems are solved so that the monopoly or political interests can't tell you what to do with your body.
Go to www.acam.org. Find a physician in your area who practices nutritional medicine. Ask if they evaluate for gut pH. If not, move on. If so, keep investigating.
The unholy alliances of our corporate state have suffocated all attempts to actually heal people without sending them into bankruptcy.
Don't want to change doctors? Search Bec5, vitamin D deficiency (see www,vitamindcouncil.org--a website started by a physician who couldn't believe his profession was suppressing and ignoring the data--e.g, ties to MS, and other auto-immune disorders, fractures, cognitive decline etc., etc.,), stomach acid and disease.
Need more info? Pay $49 for a 1 year subscription to Nutrition and Healing written by a physician with 35 years of experience in his family medicine practice.
www.wrightnewsletter.com. You will get access to archives going back to 2000. Start searching. Forget stomach acid search. You will get only mainstream medical opinion. Those that treat symptoms and not root causes.
On a good note, HR 676 is not involved in health care decisions, and pays for any state licensed advanced health care professional of your choice. That includes NDs (except for retrograde Ohio which doesn't recognize NDs). If the pols did not put greed and corruption before principle, they would understand single payer. Unfortunately, in a society where Mammon is worshiped like mad, higher priority will be given towards shielding Big Insurance/Pharma and the corporate trial lawyers who are vehemently opposed to single payer health care first.
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» RE: Society's toxic alliances of greed, corruption, corporatism, and public apathy need to be addressed.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Society's toxic alliances of greed, corruption, corporatism, and public apathy need to be addressed.
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Society's toxic alliances of greed, corruption, corporatism, and public apathy need to be addres
Posted by: grinrevere
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Posted by: Moonray on Jul 13, 2009 4:43 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we had honest, well-meaning public officials, our health care system would be much better. But our system is set up to reward the dishonest and incompetent, and that's what we get. This ongoing corruption in our government is at the bottom of all the rancor over current legislative proposals. And let's face it: Not much will change for the better until we get rid of our entrenched two-party system and change the climate of exploitation and corruption that flourishes in Washington and in our state capitals. Deep down, that's why we're all so frustrated. We need to change the whole damn system.
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Posted by: kip sullivan on Jul 13, 2009 5:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He makes four mistakes. (1) He misunderstands what a single-payer is. (2) He fails to hold the "public option" wing of the universal coverage movement accountable for supporting a feeble version of a PO that will get its ass kicked by the insurance industry and delay rather than hasten the day we get to a single-payer. (3) Because he fails to consider what will happen if the PO is feeble, he ignores the awful fact that the legislation supported by the PO movement amounts to a bailout for the insurance industry. (4) He says the multiple-payer PO wing and the single-payer wing can agree on some managed care mythology promoted by the insurance industry and the computer industry, including "payment reform" and converting all paper records to electronic medical records.
I will comment on the first three errors.
Joshua's argument goes like this: he's a single-payer supporter, but there is no such thing as a single-payer, and what we really mean when we say "single payer" "is that guaranteeing access to decent health care ... should be considered a fundamental duty of the state." This is like saying there really is no difference between paying Halliburton exorbitant fees to feed the troops in Iraq and having the US Army feed the troops, and all we we really need to ask is, Should we consider it a "fundamental duty of the state" to make sure the troops get fed?
The statement that it is a fundamental duty of the government to provide all Americans with access to good health care is not debatable. But it sheds no light on the question, How do we make that happen?
A single-payer system or program is one in which one insurer pays providers directly (not through insurance companies) FOR THE COVERED SERVICES FOR THE COVERED POPULATION. The traditional Medicare program is thus a single-payer system even though the coverage has holes in it so big most seniors buy supplemental coverage, and even though Medicare only covers 45 million of our 300+ million citizens.
Because traditional Medicare does not funnel tax dollars through insurance companies, it is the most efficient health insurance program in America. If we could extend Medicare to all Americans (after filling in its holes), we could achieve universal coverage and reduce total spending at the same time.
The "public option" now being discussed in the Senate HELP committee won't save a dime and will probably be eaten alive by the insurance industry. The same almost certainly applies to the feeble little PO being discussed in the House.
Joshua and the PO movement fail to apprise their followers that when they say "public option," what they really mean is "a public program plus an immense insurance industry bailout if the public program remains small or is destroyed by the insurance industry." The bills being drafted now in Congress by Democrats are expected to cost at least $1 trillion over the next decade. All or most of that will go into the insurance industry's coffers if the public program turns out to be a feeble little thing that is quickly destroyed by the insurance industry or, at best, enrolls only a fraction of the non-elderly and then fails to grow any bigger.
The insurance industry is the single most powerful opponent of single-payer legislation in America. Feeding a river of cash to the insurance industry is the equivalent of opposing single-payer.
To borrow a phrase from the title of Joshua's piece, the multiple-payer-PO wing needs to engage in some "clear thinking" about health care reform.
Kip Sullivan
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» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: Svejk
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: kip sullivan
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: kip sullivan
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: kip sullivan
» This is why I love AlterNet
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Josh misunderstands single-payer
Posted by: Joshua Holland
Comments are closed-
Posted by: redbridge on Jul 13, 2009 6:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Insurance is a lottery.
Say two lotteries exist. Both must pay out the same amount at the same frequency. Both have the same number of participants who must buy the same number of chances.
Lottery A is comprised of the general populace. Lottery B is comprised of the well-to-do. Which lottery will fail first?
Get the right package the first time. Or the Insurance Industry - and the GOP - will eat it for lunch.
If this is truly a battle - and I think it is - we need to recognize our enemy. They will continue their attempt to destroy whatever plan is passed. A watered down compromise is an easy mark for the insurance companies. Remember that these mega-corps have not only their usual lobbying budgets available for war, but can also add their marketing budgets to the campaign. Finally, before they concede decades of financial opulence, they will resort to using their profit - a weapon of some magnitude.
There is either Public Health COVERAGE or there is not. An option here is not a viable option. If we haven't the courage to tell the Insurance Industry it's 'game over' there isn't much point, in my opinion.
Private supplemental coverage, okay. Private option pointless.
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Jul 13, 2009 7:06 AM
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But worse is that by painting HR 676 as a Single payer bill which would create immediate vast changes scares the hell out of the middle, and certianly the paranoid Far Right. Although enjoyable, the right wings fear mongering rings true to their base and 'Fencers' merely by the over stated claims by the Single payer advocates. Proponents should be assuring others this bill has a process, which will address not only the transitional manangerial procedures,but also the economic ramifications (employment)...But Not the Medical serivces.
Why are Lefites not doing Ads showing the Shit Americans already go through working their way through the current For Profit System. The up front costs, the hidden costs, the wait time, the restricitons and the gatekeeping.
We may need to give up our warm fuzzy empathy driven campaigns and institute the more poignant and universal 'Pissed Off' Campaign. Americans already have version of 'Manged Care'- their called HMO's and PPO's. A Gov't system would be no different in the basic configuration, and cost effective goals. They would merely allow US, "We the People" to step on the other side of the Marketplace table.
Instead of being merely the labor providing the services or the customer buying the policy- We would be Hanging Our Own Shingle out for business.
Beyond that we also need to educate the public on the fact we already pay for the uninsured. So increased cost to tax payers is a blatant lie.Not only when we pay our Co payes, buy our meds, and pay taxes, but everytime we pay all our premiums(health,auto,home, life..). The cost of healthcare for the uninsured has been swept under the rug (hidden) like Bush's War Cost. Not just morally do we need to bring these folks out of the healthcare shadows- we need to do it for economic reasons. We can not improve our economy effectively if we are oblivious of some of the main costs.Ignoring the elderly, the chronically ill, the poor..Will not make them go away, nor cost less. Infact the current lack of oversight regarding this reality only makes it more susceptable to abuse and corruption.
WE are already well versed in the downside of managed care and paying for the uninsured, while the Corps pick our pockets. that is the message the Left must drive home.
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Posted by: drricklippin on Jul 13, 2009 7:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The generally spineless congress will come alomg kicking and screaming but come along they will and they must.
Because close to three quarters of Americans want meaningful long overdue change.
The days of tinkering are over. This is Obama's key domestic issue and he knows his presidency is at stake on health care reform.
And I believe he also wants to do right by the American public.
The immorality and embarrassment of the failed US model of excessive profiteering off of human sufferring is over
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: HEALTH CARE REFORM WILL HAPPEN
Posted by: DCostello2
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Posted by: jstepp590 on Jul 13, 2009 8:23 AM
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» RE: That's what he says is impossible.
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 13, 2009 8:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take a piece of paper. Fold it vertically in half. Make the left half the "why we should" side, and the "why we shouldn't" side, the right one. Start with the left:
1. Single-payer universal health care is NON-PROFIT.
2. Single-payer univerasl care WORKS, and much better than the mess WE have.
3. Every country with this system is ahead of us in one or more category, even Cuba.
4. This isn't something we have to go into blindly; there are many models out there to emulate, all of which WORK.
5. The thought of us being in a category by ourselves is a LIE, fostered by the very criminals opposing any public option.
5. Those who oppose SPUHC are bad people who should NOT be patronized or encouraged in any way, nor should their voices be listened to.
6. About forty six million people who have NO coverage at present would no longer have to worry about their survival.
Now, for the right side:
1. We should just leave things as they are, because everything's just peachy,; we're Number One, after all.
2. We don't need other countries telling us anything about us sucks.
3. We can TRUST those good folks who own the drug and insurance companies; they're our friends, and everything will be just fine.
4. Item four just won't materialize. Hell, one through three were a stretch.
Now, which side looks better to you? Tell our elected representatives what you think. It's EASY, and effective if done by enough of us.
Benjie would be proud.
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» RE: Benjie baby
Posted by: WomanforPeace/Sanity
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jul 13, 2009 9:03 AM
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For those that continue to blather about - choice & free markets - the public option is a no-brainer! If you currently enjoy private insurance than continue with it - but you too just might get a break on your premiums, prescriptions, and deductibles - that's a win, no! Why because in order to keep your business - the industry must compete and therefore your prices will be lowered! People, wake up it is past time that we all get vocal and speak up for what is best for us all, now and our future generations!
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Posted by: bandz on Jul 13, 2009 9:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
President Obama has opted not to press for a full single-payer system knowing that a fierce smear campaign against it would be mounted by the powerful health insurance, HMO and pharmaceutical companies that fear it would mean less financial profit for them. He has, instead put forward a compromise plan that would allow those with private insurance plans to keep them if they wish, but would create a public, not-for-profit option - similar to medicare - for those who would prefer such a plan or are without any health care insurance. Here are the major advantages of such a plan:
1] We would have a free choice. Keep your private insurance if you want, but be able to choose a high quality [and far less expensive] public insurance plan if you wish.
2] If you choose the public option, you would still be able to choose your own doctors and hospitals.
3] Everyone would save money. The public plan would be focused on providing care, instead of maximizing profits, and won’t need to be concerned with CEO salaries and bonuses, shareholder dividends or excessive advertising. That would result in big savings, even for those with private plans as those insurers would need to lower their rates in an effort to compete.
4] The public option will always be available and, unlike private insurers, will not be able to deny you coverage or drop you from their rolls.
5] The public option will be universal, and those with “pre-existing” medical conditions, or struggling to make ends meet will not be denied coverage.
The public option choice is essential to the success of a new healthcare plan. I’m a believer in choice. The far right-wing radicals, led by the well funded private insurance and drug companies, will oppose giving us the right to choose. Why? The reason should be obvious.
They fear -- with good cause I believe -- that once available, most Americans will choose the public option and their outrageously high profits will decrease. They will rely on tactics of fear -- such as phony scare-words like "socialized medicine" -- to try to frighten us away from the public option plan.
Don’t be fooled by the radical right-wing scare campaign. Support the best plan. Support the public option . It's not perfect, but it's good enough.
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» RE: Public Option: An OK Compromise
Posted by: kip sullivan
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Posted by: WomanforPeace/Sanity on Jul 13, 2009 9:39 AM
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Posted by: Joshua Holland on Jul 13, 2009 9:44 AM
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Apologies.
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» RE: pic screw-up
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» RE: pic screw-up
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: wwittman on Jul 13, 2009 10:06 AM
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And just as the "blue skies initiative" meant "let's protect the coal industry", a lot of talk about "public options" is code for "let's hand the system over to the same insurance companies that are gouging us all NOW."
Never mind the semantic wrangling over how single the single payer would be.
An 'option' that isn't paid for 100# out of taxes and given to every citizen as a right, ISN'T a public option.
it's another corporate give away.
and for that matter, none of the public WANTS "options".
I don't have a police dept option, or a fire dept option or an FDA option.
the government just taxes me and provides a service.
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» RE: yeah, but what IS a "public option?"
Posted by: cplot
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Posted by: jacksmith on Jul 13, 2009 10:41 AM
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It’s official. America and the World are now in a GLOBAL PANDEMIC. A World EPIDEMIC with potential catastrophic consequences for ALL of the American people. The first PANDEMIC in 41 years. And WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES will have to face this PANDEMIC with the 37th worst quality of healthcare in the developed World.
STAND READY AMERICA TO SEIZE CONTROL OF YOUR NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.
We spend over twice as much of our GDP on healthcare as any other country in the World. And Individual American spend about ten times as much out of pocket on healthcare as any other people in the World. All because of GREED! And the PRIVATE FOR PROFIT healthcare system in America.
And while all this is going on, some members of congress seem mostly concern about how to protect the corporate PROFITS! of our GREED DRIVEN, PRIVATE FOR PROFIT NATIONAL DISGRACE. A PRIVATE FOR PROFIT DISGRACE that is in fact, totally valueless to the public health. And a detriment to national security, public safety, and the public health.
Progressive democrats the Tri-Caucus and others should stand firm in their demand for a robust government-run public option for all Americans, with all of the minimum requirements progressive democrats demanded. If congress can not pass a robust public option with at least 51 votes and all robust minimum requirements, congress should immediately move to scrap healthcare reform and request that President Obama declare a state of NATIONAL HEALTHCARE EMERGENCY! Seizing and replacing all PRIVATE FOR PROFIT health insurance plans with the immediate implementation of National Healthcare for all Americans under the provisions of HR676 (A Single-payer National Healthcare Plan For All).
Coverage can begin immediately through our current medicare system. With immediate expansion through recruitment of displaced workers from the canceled private sector insurance industry. Funding can also begin immediately by substitution of payroll deductions for private insurance plans with payroll deductions for the national healthcare plan. This is what the vast majority of the American people want. And this is what all objective experts unanimously agree would be the best, and most cost effective for the American people and our economy.
In Mexico on average people who received medical care for A-H1N1 (Swine Flu) with in 3 days survived. People who did not receive medical care until 7 days or more died. This has been the same results in the US. But 50 million Americans don’t even have any healthcare coverage. And at least 200 million of you with insurance could not get in to see your private insurance plans doctors in 2 or 3 days, even if your life depended on it. WHICH IT DOES!
If President Obama has to declare a NATIONAL STATE OF EMERGENCY to rescue the American people from our healthcare crisis, he will need all the sustained support you can give him. STICK WITH HIM! He’s doing a brilliant job.
THIS IS THE BIG ONE!
THE BATTLE OF GOOD Vs EVIL!
Join the fight.
Contact congress and your representatives NOW! AND SPREAD THE WORD!
(http://action.firedoglake.com/page/s/publicoption) (http://www.actblue.com/page/healthcareheroes)
God Bless You
Jacksmith – WORKING CLASS
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» Please watch this important 60 Minutes episode on the 1976 Swine Flu
Posted by: CRaPWHiSPeReR
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Posted by: oregoncharles on Jul 13, 2009 11:51 AM
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I think the arguments against even a public-option plan are well known - some are revisited above. We need a detailed exposition of the kind of public option that avoids those problems (such as, I can't really afford to pay for health insurance, even far less than the private companies would charge me. What do you do about me - which is a lot of people?)
I confess, I haven't read the plan that you advocate, and I may not get to it (reposting a link might help.) In any case, an explanation would be very helpful. Once again: how does this turn into the equivalent of single payer? Why isn't it just a dumping ground? Why is that more likely than outright Medicare-for-all?
Do we really think the insurance lobbyists are STUPID?
Ball in your court, Joshua. I have faith in your expository powers. This piece is essentially a preface to your explanation of the "Hacker" plan.
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Posted by: Joshua Holland on Jul 13, 2009 11:57 AM
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Here's the link to the Hacker plan.
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» RE: First Problem:
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: First Problem:
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: I wasn't clear - in too much of a hurry.
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: warrior woman on Jul 13, 2009 12:46 PM
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July 8, 2009
The Health Care Crisis: Letters from Vermont and America
By Bernie Sanders at
http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Health-Care-Crisis
-Le-by-Bernie-Sanders-090708-190.html
Tort report: http://www.citizen.org/documents/NPDB_Report_200907.pdf
This portion of the healthcare dollar isn’t an insignificant amount of money, it’s worth trillions. Having spent 25+ years in insurance and specifically handling malpractice for a part of that time, the ins co's are currently running much less than 100% combined ratio's (premium to losses) which is the magic number which they shoot at, plus or minus a bit depending upon the investment market. Some are operating at 80% combined ratios. Other co' who got out of malpractice are thinking about getting back in because the trends are so good. This means that insurance companies would be forced to reduce malpractice rates and premiums providing relief to drs and hospitals, in particular because it's not an aberation, it's sustained now over a period of 3+ years. Ask an actuary about trending sometime. They can argue one year of good experience away but they will have trouble arguing away trends of this magnitude. In fact, some of the malpractice co's are probably shaking in their boots that they will have to reduce premiums, this reduces their income and would result in layoffs of employees and a loss of significant investment income. Drs should be hollering loud and clear that they expect their rates to be reduced based on this good experience. Healthcare buyers should also expect a bit of relief as a result yet it's unlikely that we would see it. We'd be better off targeting pharmaceuticals and the off the chart growth of this part of the industry.
Conversely, I understand that drs order tests that "protect" them from lawsuits. Yet, others own the machinery that perform the expensive tests and have mortgage payments on the CAT scan machines or MRI's. This also inflates the cost of healthcare. It's a circuitous argument where no one on the outside of healthcare wins. I would very much like to see a single payer option. I've worked with medicare for many years now with family members, it's quite a system that works well with little ovrhead, namely ~2-3% vs the 30+% of the insurance co's. It's at least worth a look, in my opinion.
The media and others have done a good job of making tort reform an issue with their talk of reckless lawsuits when in fact, only a small amount of malpractice cases go to court, similar to any other type of liability claim. Most are settled long before a court case (or on the eve of the court date) when there is negligence involved because the ins co recognizes the liability and pays up. Punitive damages are rarely handed out and when they are, it's usually a very significant negligent act that is the causal reason. Not always, but most of the time. Every now and again you see a court hand out some unreasonable amount but it's usually overturned on appeal and settled back to a more reasonable sum.
As an fyi, the upper midwest has some of the lowest malpractice rates in the country. The north and south east have the worst in the country.
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Posted by: PrimaDiva on Jul 13, 2009 12:54 PM
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» Yeah
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: brashley46 on Jul 13, 2009 4:03 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Elimination of all the private bureaucracies results in a significant cost saving. The "public option", the Clinton plan resurrected, would save no such money, but rather provide corporate welfare for the private insurers. I know what I like, I like what we have here in Ontario; I would fight to preserve it. Don't waste your energy fighting for the socialism-for-the-stockholders "public option".
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Posted by: gophigure on Jul 13, 2009 4:18 PM
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Your post seems to promote the idea that a single payer system is somehow the same as the public option being pursued by some, and that is also inaccurate. In those countries that have a single payer system, there are supplements available and certainly a person (primarily the wealthy) can pay out of pocket for whatever they want to. What you will NOT find in a country with a single payer system are private companies competing with the system OR the ability of people to opt out of the system. Japan did allow the wealthy to opt out and now have realized what a mistake that was. Much like our own Social Security system, if people can opt in or out at their whim, the system cannot function.
No public system can be designed to "compete" with private systems because the private systems will come up looking like bandits every time. If you compare Medicare's administrative cost of around 4% to the typical insurance company's of 15-25%, it becomes obvious that no private company could compete with a government system. That's why the HIAA and PhARMA are waging this battle from within. After their enormously profitable hijacking of the Medicare Part D program, they have discovered this is by far a more profitable and, frankly, cheaper way to fight government health care than going toe-to-toe as they did with the Clintons. They won that battle too, but it was costly and they didn't carve out huge profits as they have done with Part D and will attempt to do with the coming health care "reform".
You will soon find that any government "option" that will be designed with the help of HIAA and PhARMA will be stripped of any ability to compete either by removing benefits or pumping premiums to make them "competitive" with the private sector.
Yes, Virginia, there IS a difference between single payer and the so-called public option. Sadly, however, you are correct that HIAA and PhARMA own the marjority of the Congress and the chance of Senators and Congresspeople going against the very large pocketbooks of these industries is unlikely. I'm not sure what sort of health care collapse it will take before people demand action. The polls are already showing over 60% support for a single payer system but that probably won't overcome the stranglehold these two lobbying groups have on our government. The health of our Congress is just about as bad as the health of our nation.
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Posted by: macrumpton on Jul 13, 2009 4:58 PM
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The only way the insurance companies would ever provide decent universal care would be to regulate them so heavily they might as well be government programs like medicare and social security. If the goal is to provide the best and economical care for everyone, then the profit motive has to be removed from the equation.
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Posted by: misterbaddass on Jul 13, 2009 7:03 PM
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I, and, approximately ten million Americans are currently enrolled in a single payer health plan administered by the U. S. Government which is outstanding.
It is called Tricare!
Active military members and their families are enrolled in this program. Dental plans are also available to them. Retired personnel and their spouses are also a part of Tricare.
When retired members, and spouses, reach the age of sixty-five, they are required to enrolled in Medicare. Then they are enrolled in Tricare-For-Life which is a supplemental plan to Medicare thereby eliminating a Part D of Medicare. A dental plan is also available to the retirees.
Here is how it works for me. I have retained all my doctors, my prescriptions are filled through Rite-Aid, Walgreens etc., and even the local military facility, I have access to the best hospitals in the area, and, my lab test are taken care of under the these plans.
Tricare is never ever mentioned in the discussions of health insurance.
My guess is because it works.
However, do not take my word for it, look Tricare up yourself.
Check out this Alternet link.
http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/141048/
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Posted by: DaBear on Jul 13, 2009 11:57 PM
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Commonplace? tell that to my aunt & uncle, my cousins, their extended families and every other non-relative Canaydun I know.
Frankly on the Canadian system I'd at least have enough coverage I wouldn't be facing homelessness for the second time in three years due to medical-bill induced clusterfucks.
Look, man, when you ain't go nothing something decent like universal single-payer looks pretty damned swanky!
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Posted by: Bayardtom on Jul 14, 2009 1:42 PM
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Posted by: Hirnlego on Jul 14, 2009 3:15 PM
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http://alturl.com/tj4w (hollywood-elsewhere.com)
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» RE: Some Bill Moyers
Posted by: cplot
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Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Jul 15, 2009 2:58 PM
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We are getting ripped off by more than 8 or 9 cents out of every dollar made in the whole United States. I say more because the Swedes get a full retirement out of their 50 cents. The republicans keep telling us that our Social Security is only a supplement to a real retirement. For the life style of most republicans I'm more than assurred that it is only a supplement. For most democrats it is likely their only income upon retirement.
Only one thing more needs added to our health care bill. Money needs to be set aside to build a system of federally owned hospitals run, managed by the NIH. It should be modeled after the very best of the V.A. hospitals. For those persons unable to do a co-pay it would be the relief valve. In the final anaysis the cheapest way to do a thing is to do it yourself. We need to own and operate our own hospitals. We just don't need to be continually dependant on some corporate hospital that is still stretching itself to find a way to rip off the government.
You are likely to say that the government hospitals would go incompetent. I say that that is why we keep open the private hospital choice. The one thing that you and I both want is competence and competition. The one thing the big corporate hospitals don't want is competition. The only way for it to happen is for us to force it.
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Posted by: ekoljos on Jul 18, 2009 2:57 AM
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links of london
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Posted by: ekoljos on Jul 18, 2009 9:36 AM
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Posted by: marson on Jul 31, 2009 3:27 AM
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Could Your Cell Phone End Up Killing You?
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