COMMENTS: 54
What's So Scary About Offering People the Option of a Public Health Plan?
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Independence Day is a time to reflect on the United States and to ask what it is that we really value about our country. Most people would probably list the freedoms that it has usually guaranteed to most members of society. The opportunities for economic success, while not as great as often touted, are nonetheless impressive.
However, some members of Congress were apparently celebrating our system of employer-provided health insurance last weekend. Or, at least that is what they want us to believe.
As Congress starts to delve into the dirt of a health care reform package, the clearest point of conflict is over the existence and structure of a public health care plan. Some members of Congress have thrown down the gauntlet, insisting that they could never allow the public to have the option of buying into a government-run plan.
These members tell us that a government-run plan will be like having the post office manage our health care. While the post office actually does a pretty good job where I live, if the point is that a government-run plan is going to be bureaucratic and inefficient, then why are opponents of a public plan so worried about giving people the choice to buy into it? If the public plan is bad, then people will just stay with the options currently available in the private sector. As those of who believe in the free markets like to say: "what's wrong with giving people a choice?"
In addition to the members who just say "no" when it comes to a public plan, there are also members who are willing to allow a public plan, but only if they can be sure that it will not provide real competition with existing private plans. This route involves crippling the public plan in various ways to make it less competitive.
For example, one proposal is to establish a series of health insurance cooperatives, which would be prohibited from acting jointly to maximize their bargaining power. The idea is that a newly formed Nebraska health insurance cooperative, insuring a few thousand people, will not be able to put too much pressure on Pfizer or the American Medical Associations when negotiating prices. It also will not be able to provide much competition for Aetna, Cigna, and the other major insurers.
Several members of Congress have made protecting these insurers and the current system of employer-provided health insurance into a basic principle. Max Baucus, the head of the Senate Finance Committee, who will probably have more to say in the final bill than anyone else in the Senate, falls into this camp. Senator Baucus has explicitly said that he would not support a bill that jeopardized our system of employer-provided health insurance.
This is truly bizarre. The United States has employer-provided health care insurance as an accident -- it came about as a way to evade wage controls during World War II -- it was not some grand principle.
It is almost impossible to imagine why someone would consider employer-provided insurance as an end in itself. I say this both as an economist and as an employer. I am going to waste several hours tomorrow discussing my center's health insurance plan with an insurance broker.
It is very difficult to compare the merits of the different insurance plans that we are considering. There is an endless list of conditions that are or are not covered (which can change after the fact). There are also issues about how quickly and consistently the insurer will pay bills. We can ask people with other insurers about their experience, but there is no guarantee that our experience will be comparable.
Of course, our broker is of little use. She will only get paid if she persuades us to change insurers. How much can we trust her?
I am trying to do research and run a think tank. Senator Baucus might think that it is a good idea that I have to waste my time dealing with insurance brokers, but I don't, and I suspect that millions of other small employers feel the same way.
So, why not give us a choice of a good, simple, public plan? Employers that want to read through insurance contracts will still have that option. The rest of us can get back to our work.
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Posted by: Moonray on Jul 8, 2009 12:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Obama team and Congress have no intention of really reforming health care. Their corporate masters simply won't allow them to do that. But they have to PRETEND to reform health care in a manner that will provide some kind of cover to Democrats and Republicans. Thus, they are likely to come up a complicated, costly hodgepodge of plans that will change our health care system very little except to direct lots of tax dollars to the key players.
Once this happens -- and the deception invariably will be exposed -- Americans will have to make the hard choice of either accepting our enslavement to the corporations or considering difficult alternatives.
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» Multiple Crimes
Posted by: johnwinthrop
» RE: Multiple Crimes
Posted by: johnmont
» RE: Health care conflict exposes our pseudo-democracy
Posted by: professorboortz
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Brb007 on Jul 8, 2009 2:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Over 70% of Americans have said that they want health care reform and a public option. We have, between the last administration and the current one, the largest redistribution of wealth in our country's history ... massive, unprecedented taxation w/o representation, which is evidenced by their complete refusal to act on the will of the people ... in so very many areas. I thoroughly agree with the author's view...what would the harm be in offering a public option? What are they so very afraid of? I don't see the Congress complaining about their health care, which WE are all paying for. Why are we being precluded from an equal quality, reasonably priced choice of the very same thing that we are providing to each of our elected officials that we have hired to govern and develop policy to benefit and protect us?
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Posted by: CTC123 on Jul 8, 2009 5:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The CONSUMER
Who is the Consumer?
U & I
Where is the Consumer?
At the top of the Economic Pyramid.
Where is the Economic Pyramid?
Please Search:
CTC123GREEN
Public Option = Consumer Decision
Great article, Dean Baker
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Posted by: progressive-life on Jul 8, 2009 5:12 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think anyone who has thought this through is excited about sitting in government clinics, that is if you can get an appointment for government level healthcare!
It only help those who do not currently have insurance - the rest of America gets screwed!
What about caps on health care premiums and more regulation of the health care companies!
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» RE: Not so simple
Posted by: taxidave
» RE: Not so simple
Posted by: progressive-life
» RE: Not so simple
Posted by: johnmont
» As much as I'd like my doctor to drive a Civic.
Posted by: johnwinthrop
» A little story
Posted by: wolfgangmo75
» Little stories for little people (MD) who make too big salaries.
Posted by: johnwinthrop
» RE: As much as I'd like my doctor to drive a Civic.
Posted by: progressive-life
» kind of
Posted by: james108
» RE: kind of
Posted by: johnmont
» What Government Clinics? Typical Insurance Propaganda
Posted by: FoonTheElder
» RE: Not-so-progressive-get-a-life
Posted by: wolfgangmo75
» RE: Not-so-progressive-get-a-life
Posted by: johnmont
» RE: Not so simple
Posted by: Brb007
» RE: It ISN'T Government health care it's Government BILL PAYING - get it right
Posted by: DCostello2
» "progressive-life" = Our Friendly Neighborhood Troll
Posted by: armorypk
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Posted by: jcleland on Jul 8, 2009 5:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Back incumbents is the Pelosi Way even if they are dinosaurs
Posted by: johnwinthrop
» RE: Jim
Posted by: Spiritgirl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: johnwinthrop on Jul 8, 2009 5:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Though many of Sen Baucus own employees are bright young healthy Capitol Hill aides, I have no doubt that if any of the Senator's family or staff were to be plagued by MS, cancer or any other awful disease you can think of, the federal plan in effect for Congress would be there if needed.
The problem is not that difficult. Elderly covered by Medicare. Vets by VA. Poor by Medicaid. Most workers by employer provided insurance(w/workers paying some or all of costs) and those who are uninsured.
It seems to me that the market for 'public' health care is those who are uninsured or those workers who can't afford the employer's plan. IF the public plan is cheaper than the employer plan, fine.
That's what bugs the insurance companies. But the goal is good, universal health care. What acommplishes that, assuming we aren't ready for univrsal federal single payer yet?
Let's get a system with a public system as part of the network underway, measure costs and coverage, and make future adjustments as necessary.
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» Tough Audience
Posted by: johnwinthrop
» RE: Tough Audience
Posted by: BobbieT
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Posted by: geometeer on Jul 8, 2009 5:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, I am tired of rhetoric that misses the point of the conservative argument, which is not fear that a public option would offer better value overall, but that it would be subsidized from general taxes. It is thus logically possible for it to be more expensive for society, but a better deal for each individual (who has already paid tax), and thus competitive in the market, and destructive of capitalist medicine in an unfair way.
Other countries' experience is generally better than this, but public health could be run as wastefully as Pentagon procurement. Public option supporters should explain how to prevent that, rather than argue against a straw man.
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Posted by: james108 on Jul 8, 2009 6:14 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not a legitimate option when they're stifling single payer advocates and not even letting them testify and do a scorecard.
It doesn't address the problem. I agree with the comedians, that we're just getting the bad parts of socialism now. Also, just as we're getting no say in discussing the options now, that means we will have no say how this is run. They can prove it's an "option" by not railroading over the people right now before it's even started. Also, Axelrod's fake grassroots astroturf ploys are a real threat to democratic discussion. It's like the CIA insurgency instigation, but domestic. Things like healthcare09.org, fake grassroots coordinations, trying to co-opt progressives into blindly rallying, and scapegoating insurance companies does not help things.
Insurance companies are already the most tightly regulated part of the health care system. Every state has an insurance commission that approves rate increases, and profit ration tightly justified. I wouldn't mind consolidating the administration to save money but this does not do that, it just creates a new middleman and insurance company that can pull on tax dollars. If we're not allowed in the debate now, I can see this being abused later as a tax money pump.
The high cost of health care is mostly due to actual health care charges. People with medicare and tricare still can't get appointments many places since providers can charge people with insurance more, and charge unprotected individuals even more than that for the same services. Make them go the ER and then it's $$$.
Should there be a restriction on how much drug companies can profit off a certain drug dose? It seems like if doctors are going to be ignorant of homeopathic care and herbs, and prescribe extremely expensive drugs for most things, the profit margin of those drugs should be monitored and discussed as a public service. Insurance companies are restricted to about 18% average profit on premiums. Is there any such restriction for hospitals, big monopolized HMO's or drug companies?
Giving them another excuse to tax us more without giving the people any say in what we want and get is not just "an option". Insurance companies are only a small part of the problem at worse. The reason single payer is such a better solution is it's more than just adding another insurance company. It's giving people a collective bargaining power, to negotiate better rates with the doctors, big HMOs and big pharma. It's establishing a pricing structure, with doctors and people, to bring the costs of essential services to a more realistic amount. It's removing the cost shifting where all other services are inflated, because of the cost of "uninsureds", which this will leave in place for many. Providers are allowed to exaggerate charges on uninsured people for bigger write-offs, allowing them to charge even more to everyone else, ironically.
The Health Care Industry's PR Scam: Will Obama Fall for It? - Oh, sweet Mother Jones, it's not about him falling for it, it's about him trying to make us fall for it. If he's saying now or never now, then that means we will not get a chance to fix this mess if we sell out to this.
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Posted by: grindermonkey on Jul 8, 2009 6:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: SufiLizard on Jul 8, 2009 6:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nobody is talking about "government clinics." What we are talking about is government insurance. The government is quite good at writing checks, much better than private, for-profit insurance companies.
A significant chunk of my family is Canadian, and not ONE of them would trade their health care system for ours.
If all the lies about the long waits and shoddy care were true, they wouldn't feel this way. Please people, don't buy into the lies and propaganda.
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Posted by: fantasypoliticsusa on Jul 8, 2009 6:54 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It just doesn't work. It will cost us tons more in taxes just like it does in those countries that do have a socialized form of medicine. It doesn't make sense to push this through like it is a big emergency without even reading it. They are trying to pull the wool over our eyes, and you guys are so willing to let them, just to get something for free.
The system we have now, if you have a good job, willing to work hard, works ok. It needs tweaking, but it works. So why fix something with such drastic measures when it works ok. I know from my experience that I have had a health plan most of my life. That includes when I worked at a convenience store, during college, union jobs, and just down right bad paying jobs. It is not unattainable, just some people don't try very hard, and want everything for nothing.
You really shouldn't put that much trust in politicians to provide you with a suitable health care program. They are clearly not there for your best interest. It's about time to do for yourself, and provide for yourself, and quit crying for free handouts at others expense.
Another thing, when and if this gets through, it will drive out the health insurers just like the home insurers in Florida. Pretty soon the only and best option will be the government sponsored health care program. It has already happened in Florida with home insurance and should be looked at closely. Because it will also happen with the health insurance industry if we push this through. If you have insurance good or bad now, you should be against this. Because the other option will cost you more, and you will get less. And if you don't have insurance, an option now, you will be fined.
It is just stupid to assume this will not cost every individual willing to work more money.
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» RE: why it would be scary
Posted by: SufiLizard
» You are defending the very people who are screwing you
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: why it would be scary
Posted by: Birdland
» RE: why it would be scary
Posted by: fantasypoliticsusa
» unfortunately...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
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Posted by: wolfgangmo75 on Jul 8, 2009 7:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is so scary about universal health care is that it works. The insurance companies KNOW this. And they have publicly stated that they can't compete.
So they are scared and fighting for their lives/bonuses/cushy jobs/expense account/private jets/huge fucking salaries.
They gotta go. No industry and no company has a right to exist. If they don't move on and grow, then they deserve the fate of the dinosaurs (and I ain't talking about singin' Kumbaya with Jesus while chewing on a salad like the Creationist idiots believe)
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Posted by: Levon on Jul 8, 2009 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what a tragic waste.
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Posted by: BlueTigress on Jul 8, 2009 8:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Haven't we all heard how terrific it is?
Why can't we have what they've already got?
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» RE: Government-run health care?
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Government-run health care?
Posted by: Amy27605
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Posted by: BlueTigress on Jul 8, 2009 8:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or if you change jobs there won't be that period before you qualify for the new company's benefit and you have to hope that nothing bad happens to you.
Me, personally, I've been out of work for almost four years. I'm grateful that I'm covered by my husband's insurance. Though when I was working I was still covered by his plan because his employer is a major corporation and they have the numbers to negotiate a good plan that will cover spouses unless their insurance premium fell below a certain floor value (never did). My employers probably appreciated that they never had to carry me.
How about the situation where a couple each has to use their own employer's insurance and the plans are different? There would have to be a certain amount of resentment towards the individual that has the superior insurance that they are not allowed to share with their spouse.
The system is a mess. We need to fix it.
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 8, 2009 9:20 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Folks enamored of FEMA-style health care should be able to opt-in and pay into that system, and it should cover its enrollees to the extent that it's able.
Everyone else should be able to pay separately into their choice plan.
Why are the Public Health Option folks so terrified of their own proposals that they insist that they must shake down their four closest neighbors in order to for them to "get theirs, now screw you" due?
Two systems, funded by the people they cover*. Very simple! Not so big, bwad, and scawwy...
*and yes, I'm still willing to help pitch in and foot the bill for children and the helpless.
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Jul 8, 2009 9:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
•Medicare: 2% to 5% overhead, comprehensive care
•VA Medical: low overhead, comprehensive care
•Social Security: low overhead, checks always show up on time
•State Employment Development: checks show up on time or even early
These agencies each deal with MILLIONS of subscribers and yet manage to get it right with little overhead. Can the private insurance industry, with its dozens of differing and confusing claim forms, massive bureaucracy, and endless plan derivatives, make this claim? Judging by the horror stories I've heard, not a chance. They're simply upset that their healthcare gravy train might possibly be derailed –– unless they can spend millions of our health insurance premium dollars to make sure we're still denied what we pay through the nose for.
Using premium money for lobbying is or should be criminal behavior and many executives of healthcare insurers should go to prison for it. Fines levied on health insurers for their indescretions are passed on to subscribers, so simply fining them is actually fining the victims. This is yet another insult forced upon you and me by the healthcare industry and their paid shills, our "representatives," in congress– some of whom should also go to prison.
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Jul 8, 2009 9:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ya' want scary? This would likely scare the crap out of about half of congress.
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Posted by: rpauli on Jul 8, 2009 11:51 AM
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The minor details are what happens to people.
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Posted by: Gravitas on Jul 8, 2009 5:03 PM
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Posted by: spencerh on Jul 8, 2009 7:36 PM
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Posted by: Jaffe on Jul 8, 2009 8:23 PM
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The answer, I believe, is America's profound fear of what appears to be socialized medicine, which is to say Socialism.
Despite the patent inequities of global capitalism, many--probably most--Americans are still compelled (brainwashed) to believe that the shamelessly inept US health care system is still the best there is.
Even as they believe, against massive evidence to the contrary (never having had enough "discretionary income" to travel), that the US is, by far, the best country in which to live and rear your English-speaking-only children.
It is a stubborn, masochistic ignorance.
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Posted by: TroopAbn on Jul 9, 2009 9:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
TroopAbn@aol.com
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Posted by: Oemissions on Jul 13, 2009 1:37 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
don't worry, it won't include expensive cosmetic surgery.
Its not socialism. Its a human right.
So is housing. But NOT automobiles!
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Posted by: jjboy11 on Jul 14, 2009 7:47 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://presentlyspeakingabout.blogspot.com/
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Posted by: Moonray on Jul 8, 2009 12:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Obama team and Congress have no intention of really reforming health care. Their corporate masters simply won't allow them to do that. But they have to PRETEND to reform health care in a manner that will provide some kind of cover to Democrats and Republicans. Thus, they are likely to come up a complicated, costly hodgepodge of plans that will change our health care system very little except to direct lots of tax dollars to the key players.
Once this happens -- and the deception invariably will be exposed -- Americans will have to make the hard choice of either accepting our enslavement to the corporations or considering difficult alternatives.
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» Multiple Crimes
Posted by: johnwinthrop
» RE: Multiple Crimes
Posted by: johnmont
» RE: Health care conflict exposes our pseudo-democracy
Posted by: professorboortz
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Brb007 on Jul 8, 2009 2:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Over 70% of Americans have said that they want health care reform and a public option. We have, between the last administration and the current one, the largest redistribution of wealth in our country's history ... massive, unprecedented taxation w/o representation, which is evidenced by their complete refusal to act on the will of the people ... in so very many areas. I thoroughly agree with the author's view...what would the harm be in offering a public option? What are they so very afraid of? I don't see the Congress complaining about their health care, which WE are all paying for. Why are we being precluded from an equal quality, reasonably priced choice of the very same thing that we are providing to each of our elected officials that we have hired to govern and develop policy to benefit and protect us?
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Posted by: CTC123 on Jul 8, 2009 5:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The CONSUMER
Who is the Consumer?
U & I
Where is the Consumer?
At the top of the Economic Pyramid.
Where is the Economic Pyramid?
Please Search:
CTC123GREEN
Public Option = Consumer Decision
Great article, Dean Baker
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Posted by: progressive-life on Jul 8, 2009 5:12 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think anyone who has thought this through is excited about sitting in government clinics, that is if you can get an appointment for government level healthcare!
It only help those who do not currently have insurance - the rest of America gets screwed!
What about caps on health care premiums and more regulation of the health care companies!
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» RE: Not so simple
Posted by: taxidave
» RE: Not so simple
Posted by: progressive-life
» RE: Not so simple
Posted by: johnmont
» As much as I'd like my doctor to drive a Civic.
Posted by: johnwinthrop
» A little story
Posted by: wolfgangmo75
» Little stories for little people (MD) who make too big salaries.
Posted by: johnwinthrop
» RE: As much as I'd like my doctor to drive a Civic.
Posted by: progressive-life
» kind of
Posted by: james108
» RE: kind of
Posted by: johnmont
» What Government Clinics? Typical Insurance Propaganda
Posted by: FoonTheElder
» RE: Not-so-progressive-get-a-life
Posted by: wolfgangmo75
» RE: Not-so-progressive-get-a-life
Posted by: johnmont
» RE: Not so simple
Posted by: Brb007
» RE: It ISN'T Government health care it's Government BILL PAYING - get it right
Posted by: DCostello2
» "progressive-life" = Our Friendly Neighborhood Troll
Posted by: armorypk
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Posted by: jcleland on Jul 8, 2009 5:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Back incumbents is the Pelosi Way even if they are dinosaurs
Posted by: johnwinthrop
» RE: Jim
Posted by: Spiritgirl
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Posted by: johnwinthrop on Jul 8, 2009 5:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Though many of Sen Baucus own employees are bright young healthy Capitol Hill aides, I have no doubt that if any of the Senator's family or staff were to be plagued by MS, cancer or any other awful disease you can think of, the federal plan in effect for Congress would be there if needed.
The problem is not that difficult. Elderly covered by Medicare. Vets by VA. Poor by Medicaid. Most workers by employer provided insurance(w/workers paying some or all of costs) and those who are uninsured.
It seems to me that the market for 'public' health care is those who are uninsured or those workers who can't afford the employer's plan. IF the public plan is cheaper than the employer plan, fine.
That's what bugs the insurance companies. But the goal is good, universal health care. What acommplishes that, assuming we aren't ready for univrsal federal single payer yet?
Let's get a system with a public system as part of the network underway, measure costs and coverage, and make future adjustments as necessary.
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» Tough Audience
Posted by: johnwinthrop
» RE: Tough Audience
Posted by: BobbieT
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Posted by: geometeer on Jul 8, 2009 5:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, I am tired of rhetoric that misses the point of the conservative argument, which is not fear that a public option would offer better value overall, but that it would be subsidized from general taxes. It is thus logically possible for it to be more expensive for society, but a better deal for each individual (who has already paid tax), and thus competitive in the market, and destructive of capitalist medicine in an unfair way.
Other countries' experience is generally better than this, but public health could be run as wastefully as Pentagon procurement. Public option supporters should explain how to prevent that, rather than argue against a straw man.
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Posted by: james108 on Jul 8, 2009 6:14 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not a legitimate option when they're stifling single payer advocates and not even letting them testify and do a scorecard.
It doesn't address the problem. I agree with the comedians, that we're just getting the bad parts of socialism now. Also, just as we're getting no say in discussing the options now, that means we will have no say how this is run. They can prove it's an "option" by not railroading over the people right now before it's even started. Also, Axelrod's fake grassroots astroturf ploys are a real threat to democratic discussion. It's like the CIA insurgency instigation, but domestic. Things like healthcare09.org, fake grassroots coordinations, trying to co-opt progressives into blindly rallying, and scapegoating insurance companies does not help things.
Insurance companies are already the most tightly regulated part of the health care system. Every state has an insurance commission that approves rate increases, and profit ration tightly justified. I wouldn't mind consolidating the administration to save money but this does not do that, it just creates a new middleman and insurance company that can pull on tax dollars. If we're not allowed in the debate now, I can see this being abused later as a tax money pump.
The high cost of health care is mostly due to actual health care charges. People with medicare and tricare still can't get appointments many places since providers can charge people with insurance more, and charge unprotected individuals even more than that for the same services. Make them go the ER and then it's $$$.
Should there be a restriction on how much drug companies can profit off a certain drug dose? It seems like if doctors are going to be ignorant of homeopathic care and herbs, and prescribe extremely expensive drugs for most things, the profit margin of those drugs should be monitored and discussed as a public service. Insurance companies are restricted to about 18% average profit on premiums. Is there any such restriction for hospitals, big monopolized HMO's or drug companies?
Giving them another excuse to tax us more without giving the people any say in what we want and get is not just "an option". Insurance companies are only a small part of the problem at worse. The reason single payer is such a better solution is it's more than just adding another insurance company. It's giving people a collective bargaining power, to negotiate better rates with the doctors, big HMOs and big pharma. It's establishing a pricing structure, with doctors and people, to bring the costs of essential services to a more realistic amount. It's removing the cost shifting where all other services are inflated, because of the cost of "uninsureds", which this will leave in place for many. Providers are allowed to exaggerate charges on uninsured people for bigger write-offs, allowing them to charge even more to everyone else, ironically.
The Health Care Industry's PR Scam: Will Obama Fall for It? - Oh, sweet Mother Jones, it's not about him falling for it, it's about him trying to make us fall for it. If he's saying now or never now, then that means we will not get a chance to fix this mess if we sell out to this.
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Posted by: grindermonkey on Jul 8, 2009 6:39 AM
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Posted by: SufiLizard on Jul 8, 2009 6:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nobody is talking about "government clinics." What we are talking about is government insurance. The government is quite good at writing checks, much better than private, for-profit insurance companies.
A significant chunk of my family is Canadian, and not ONE of them would trade their health care system for ours.
If all the lies about the long waits and shoddy care were true, they wouldn't feel this way. Please people, don't buy into the lies and propaganda.
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Posted by: fantasypoliticsusa on Jul 8, 2009 6:54 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It just doesn't work. It will cost us tons more in taxes just like it does in those countries that do have a socialized form of medicine. It doesn't make sense to push this through like it is a big emergency without even reading it. They are trying to pull the wool over our eyes, and you guys are so willing to let them, just to get something for free.
The system we have now, if you have a good job, willing to work hard, works ok. It needs tweaking, but it works. So why fix something with such drastic measures when it works ok. I know from my experience that I have had a health plan most of my life. That includes when I worked at a convenience store, during college, union jobs, and just down right bad paying jobs. It is not unattainable, just some people don't try very hard, and want everything for nothing.
You really shouldn't put that much trust in politicians to provide you with a suitable health care program. They are clearly not there for your best interest. It's about time to do for yourself, and provide for yourself, and quit crying for free handouts at others expense.
Another thing, when and if this gets through, it will drive out the health insurers just like the home insurers in Florida. Pretty soon the only and best option will be the government sponsored health care program. It has already happened in Florida with home insurance and should be looked at closely. Because it will also happen with the health insurance industry if we push this through. If you have insurance good or bad now, you should be against this. Because the other option will cost you more, and you will get less. And if you don't have insurance, an option now, you will be fined.
It is just stupid to assume this will not cost every individual willing to work more money.
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» RE: why it would be scary
Posted by: SufiLizard
» You are defending the very people who are screwing you
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: why it would be scary
Posted by: Birdland
» RE: why it would be scary
Posted by: fantasypoliticsusa
» unfortunately...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
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Posted by: wolfgangmo75 on Jul 8, 2009 7:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is so scary about universal health care is that it works. The insurance companies KNOW this. And they have publicly stated that they can't compete.
So they are scared and fighting for their lives/bonuses/cushy jobs/expense account/private jets/huge fucking salaries.
They gotta go. No industry and no company has a right to exist. If they don't move on and grow, then they deserve the fate of the dinosaurs (and I ain't talking about singin' Kumbaya with Jesus while chewing on a salad like the Creationist idiots believe)
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Posted by: Levon on Jul 8, 2009 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what a tragic waste.
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Posted by: BlueTigress on Jul 8, 2009 8:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Haven't we all heard how terrific it is?
Why can't we have what they've already got?
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» RE: Government-run health care?
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Government-run health care?
Posted by: Amy27605
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Posted by: BlueTigress on Jul 8, 2009 8:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or if you change jobs there won't be that period before you qualify for the new company's benefit and you have to hope that nothing bad happens to you.
Me, personally, I've been out of work for almost four years. I'm grateful that I'm covered by my husband's insurance. Though when I was working I was still covered by his plan because his employer is a major corporation and they have the numbers to negotiate a good plan that will cover spouses unless their insurance premium fell below a certain floor value (never did). My employers probably appreciated that they never had to carry me.
How about the situation where a couple each has to use their own employer's insurance and the plans are different? There would have to be a certain amount of resentment towards the individual that has the superior insurance that they are not allowed to share with their spouse.
The system is a mess. We need to fix it.
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 8, 2009 9:20 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Folks enamored of FEMA-style health care should be able to opt-in and pay into that system, and it should cover its enrollees to the extent that it's able.
Everyone else should be able to pay separately into their choice plan.
Why are the Public Health Option folks so terrified of their own proposals that they insist that they must shake down their four closest neighbors in order to for them to "get theirs, now screw you" due?
Two systems, funded by the people they cover*. Very simple! Not so big, bwad, and scawwy...
*and yes, I'm still willing to help pitch in and foot the bill for children and the helpless.
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Jul 8, 2009 9:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
•Medicare: 2% to 5% overhead, comprehensive care
•VA Medical: low overhead, comprehensive care
•Social Security: low overhead, checks always show up on time
•State Employment Development: checks show up on time or even early
These agencies each deal with MILLIONS of subscribers and yet manage to get it right with little overhead. Can the private insurance industry, with its dozens of differing and confusing claim forms, massive bureaucracy, and endless plan derivatives, make this claim? Judging by the horror stories I've heard, not a chance. They're simply upset that their healthcare gravy train might possibly be derailed –– unless they can spend millions of our health insurance premium dollars to make sure we're still denied what we pay through the nose for.
Using premium money for lobbying is or should be criminal behavior and many executives of healthcare insurers should go to prison for it. Fines levied on health insurers for their indescretions are passed on to subscribers, so simply fining them is actually fining the victims. This is yet another insult forced upon you and me by the healthcare industry and their paid shills, our "representatives," in congress– some of whom should also go to prison.
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Jul 8, 2009 9:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ya' want scary? This would likely scare the crap out of about half of congress.
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Posted by: rpauli on Jul 8, 2009 11:51 AM
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The minor details are what happens to people.
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Posted by: Gravitas on Jul 8, 2009 5:03 PM
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Posted by: spencerh on Jul 8, 2009 7:36 PM
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Posted by: Jaffe on Jul 8, 2009 8:23 PM
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The answer, I believe, is America's profound fear of what appears to be socialized medicine, which is to say Socialism.
Despite the patent inequities of global capitalism, many--probably most--Americans are still compelled (brainwashed) to believe that the shamelessly inept US health care system is still the best there is.
Even as they believe, against massive evidence to the contrary (never having had enough "discretionary income" to travel), that the US is, by far, the best country in which to live and rear your English-speaking-only children.
It is a stubborn, masochistic ignorance.
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Posted by: TroopAbn on Jul 9, 2009 9:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
TroopAbn@aol.com
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Posted by: Oemissions on Jul 13, 2009 1:37 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
don't worry, it won't include expensive cosmetic surgery.
Its not socialism. Its a human right.
So is housing. But NOT automobiles!
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Posted by: jjboy11 on Jul 14, 2009 7:47 AM
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http://presentlyspeakingabout.blogspot.com/
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