COMMENTS: 70
We Spend Twice as Much on Health Care as Other Rich Countries -- and What Do We Get for It?
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Suppose that people in the United States paid twice as much for our cars as people in Canada, Germany, and every other wealthy country. Economists would no doubt be pointing out the enormous amount of waste in the US auto industry. They would insist that we both take advantage of the lower cost cars available elsewhere and take steps to make our own industry more efficient.
For some reason, economists do not have the same attitude towards health care. Most seem little bothered by the fact that we spend more than twice as much per person as people in other countries, with no obvious benefit in terms of health care outcomes. This lack of concern is especially striking since health care is a far larger share of the US economy than autos, comprising 17 percent of total output, as compared to about 3 percent for autos.
The excess health care spending comes to more than $1.2 trillion a year or the equivalent of more than $16,000 for a family of four. Paying too much for health care has the same economic impact as a health care tax. In effect, we have a health care waste tax that is about 10 percent larger than the projected federal revenue from the personal and corporate income tax combined. In short, this is real money.
However, the enormous waste in the US health care sector does not arouse anywhere near as much concern as items like the "buy America" provision in the stimulus package. This provision, which applies to a small fraction of the recently passed stimulus package, was the topic of a front-page article in The Washington Post. The article warned that this protectionist provision could lead to the unraveling of the world trade system.
While features of health care can make trade in health care services more difficult than trade in autos, it is possible for the barriers to be bridged. If the self-proclaimed "free traders," who dominate the economics profession and policy debates, actually were free traders, they would be pushing hard to allow people in the United States to benefit from international trade in medical services in the same way that US consumers have benefited from low cost imports of cars and clothes.
There are several obvious paths through which the United States could gain by freer trade in health care. First, we could construct trade deals that simplify the process through which foreigners can train to meet US standards for becoming doctors, dentists, and other highly paid medical specialists.
The point would be to set up procedures through which students in countries like Mexico, China, and India could train to meet our standards, and then would have the same ability to practice in the United States as US trained doctors. This could be easily implemented and offer large gains to both countries, especially if the US paid a fee to compensate for the medical training offered to foreigners, so that two to three doctors could be trained for every one that practiced in the United States.
An even simpler route for gaining from trade would be to allow Medicare beneficiaries in the United States to buy into the much cheaper health care systems in other countries. The government could split the savings with the beneficiaries, allowing them to pocket thousands of dollars a year, while saving the government the same amount. The receiving country could even get a premium over its costs in order to give it an incentive to take part in the program.
Finally, the government could try to standardize rules around the rapidly growing industry of medical tourism. Every year, tens of thousands of patients travel to Thailand, India, and other countries to have major medical procedures performed at prices that are often less than one-tenth as much as those in the United States. The savings can easily offset the cost of travel for the patient and several family members. If facilities were regulated and clear rules established for legal liability, then more patients would be able to take advantage of the potential cost saving.
However, the free traders are not interested in promoting free trade in health care. They would rather just tell us that there is nothing that can be done about exploding health care costs in the United States. This might have something to do with the fact that the primary beneficiaries of protectionism in health care are doctors and dentists, not autoworkers and steel workers (and the drug and medical supply industry).
Economists and other self-proclaimed free traders are anxious to use trade to reduce the income of manufacturing workers; they are very happy to have protection for highly paid professionals. After all, their parents, siblings and children can be doctors and dentists. They are unlikely to be autoworkers and steelworkers.
So, we are stuck with a hopelessly bloated health care system that most of the economists and pundits say cannot be fixed. Insofar as this is a true statement, it is because they and their wealthy friends do not want it to be fixed. It really is that simple.
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Posted by: mmckinl on May 25, 2009 12:25 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Suppose that people in the United States paid twice as much for our cars as people in Canada, Germany, and every other wealthy country. Economists would no doubt be pointing out the enormous amount of waste in the US auto industry. They would insist that we both take advantage of the lower cost cars available elsewhere and take steps to make our own industry more efficient."
And we end up with This ?
"The point would be to set up procedures through which students in countries like Mexico, China, and India could train to meet our standards, and then would have the same ability to practice in the United States as US trained doctors. This could be easily implemented and offer large gains to both countries, especially if the US paid a fee to compensate for the medical training offered to foreigners, so that two to three doctors could be trained for every one that practiced in the United States."
Yes I know, Baker is trying to make a point about the hypocrisy of the ongoing protectionism for health care professionals but his suggestions only serve to muddy the issue of what we need : HR 676 Medicare for All single payer healthcare ... Baker's shoddy attempt at irony hurts health care reform and the chances for a Single Payer system.
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» RE: Dean Baker: Free Trade Delirium ...
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Dean Baker: Free Trade Delirium ...
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Combined systems
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Dean Baker: Free Trade Delirium ...
Posted by: calichepit
» RE: Dean Baker: Free Trade Delirium ...
Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
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Posted by: tmullins on May 25, 2009 3:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.wisecountyissues.com/?p=62
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» RE: We need a cure for health care in America
Posted by: Midway54
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Posted by: JDutty6 on May 25, 2009 4:45 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
RT
Privacy Center
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» RE: Funny
Posted by: wrinklemomma
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on May 25, 2009 5:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although many of us accept the view described by the author, there is another reality that is accepted by many overly influential people as well as many who are not so influential. This alternative "reality" says that we have the very best health care system that the rest of the world can only envy. It says that any attempt to change it will introduce the risk that, not only our health care system but our entire political system and our economy will collapse. Obviously, if this is the world you live in you will reach other conclusions than the author does.
As an example of the thinking in this alternative universe, take a look at the survey at the bottom-right of the page at this link.
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» Racism over facts
Posted by: wbblack
» RE: Coloring the facts
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: ach to his own Facts
Posted by: Archie1954
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Posted by: dcande01 on May 25, 2009 5:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» "The Cruelest Lie"
Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: It just Drives Me Crazy!!!
Posted by: ellie
» RE: It just Drives Me Crazy!!!
Posted by: dcande01
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Posted by: sausage on May 25, 2009 6:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And it would adversely effect the incomes of the medical...or should I say physicians' class, as nurses are woefully underpaid, and upper level managerial class of the health care cabal.
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Posted by: bthespoon on May 25, 2009 6:16 AM
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The public has no one representing us any more because we do not finance their campaigns.
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Posted by: lisafrequency on May 25, 2009 6:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Insurance is one of the biggest scams going people pay for it so this is the peoples fault. As soon as people stop buying into this scam they will have to change the plan.
Asking the government to fix it is a little like asking the fow to guard the hen house.
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» RE: We pay for that's why
Posted by: lisafrequency
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Posted by: johnwinthrop on May 25, 2009 6:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And remember way back when: you saw one doctor. Now you see two or three. They employ many "techs" and purchase many machines that are replaced almost as fast as your next visit.
And everybody along the way prescribes "medication". The medication comes from the nice well-dressed lady who looks like a model who always seems to be in the doctor's office. She is always waved through the crowd of patients in the waiting room to teach the doctor some new tricks.
And all the specialists, and your "doctor", bill the insurance co. And the second and third doctor you see, "specialists", charge more than the first, though the first sees more patients and deals with more low income people. And the specialists are tied into the hospitals which accredit who? The specialists.
Can you admit patients to a hospital if you are not "accredited"? No. Verboten.
If this were simply a business transaction, it would be a classic model of AntiTrust, PriceFixing. And people would go to jail.
Hi there DOCTOR Convict. Ready for your exam?
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» RE: Show your insurance card before you enter the cell
Posted by: Sympa
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Posted by: jmmartin on May 25, 2009 6:41 AM
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» RE: Greed is the Game
Posted by: johnwinthrop
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Posted by: jpinsatx on May 25, 2009 6:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) MERGE Medicare with Medicaide into one single "Income Based" system for poor and elderly citizens.
2) REQUIRE insurance companies to provide the same basic coverage for ALL Non-Medicare/Medicaide citizens, regardless of health status, at affordable rates.
3) ALLOW insurance companies to "Profit" by offering additional benefits and options to those who qualify and are willing to pay the difference.
As for Funding…
1) Changing from an "Emergency Treatment" to a "Preventive Care" system will save local communities billions, maybe even trillions of taxpayer dollars!
2) Small business will be able to compete globally and hire additional taxpaying employees!
3) Wealthy seniors will pay their fair share!
4) The tremendous burden on future generations will be greatly reduced!
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Posted by: AJR Journal on May 25, 2009 6:59 AM
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This is the future if we adopt a government-run health care system.
It is no wonder physician-assisted suicide is popular
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» RE: IRS Compassion,PLUS Post Office Efficiency
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» Tell your Mom I said "Hi"
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» Funny thing is, the Postal Service is quite efficient
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Tell your Mom I said "Hi"
Posted by: dcande01
» RE: IRS Compassion,PLUS Post Office Efficiency
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» Overthrow Congress -- Elect Progressives
Posted by: halg
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Posted by: frankly1 on May 25, 2009 7:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The U.S. has the worst "healthcare" Doctors, nurses and Dentists in the world. They have re-written the Hypocratic oath to the effect that it goes... first establish how many things we can get the insurance or medicare pay for, needed or not. Then prescribe as many drugs as you can, especially those that the drug company is paying you to dish out and if the patient/customer is happy...great if they get worse or die oh well thats what liability insurance is for, right! I am not saying that Amercans Doctors and nurses wanted this or like it but "healthcare" in the U.S. is a sickcare business! The corpoate system has turned American health workers into the crackwhores of medicine for thier obscene profits. It will not end as long as the insurance companies rule the business and people believe the propaganda and keep handing them their money.
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Posted by: Beatrice on May 25, 2009 7:49 AM
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France has an all-inclusive government-run health-care system. If a tourist becomes ill a doctor comes to the patient's hotel room. And there is no charge.
If this be "socialized medicine," bring it on! Slapping a label on something in no way alters its value.
The US needs a single-payer government-run health-care system. It would take the burden off employers, allow companies to be more competitive, costs would be lower because of economies of scale and negotiatiated drug prices.
Why are the insurance companies at the table?
We don't need "health insurance," we need health care.
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» RE: Beatrice Williams-Rude, citizen, traveler
Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
» RE: Beatrice Williams-Rude, citizen, traveler
Posted by: Redhead5050
» RE: Beatrice Williams-Rude, citizen, traveler
Posted by: yesman
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Posted by: Skeptic10 on May 25, 2009 8:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Baker adds nothing to the debate. In fact his proposals are so ludicrous that he damages the reform effort. The proposal that Canadians (or Italians or the British) would pay for the infrastructure, drugs, doctors fees, etc. in the U.S. in exchange for premiums is laughable. The alternative idea that patients could travel to those countries for ER visits, well baby care, appendectomies, etc. is not only unrealistic, but idiotic. Tripling the number of doctors in the U.S. will also not solve the problem. Health care is not in any way analogous to the auto industry, so why start with that premise? How does this tripe get by the editors at Alternet?
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» Treatment
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: wagner on May 25, 2009 8:35 AM
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So, how about the basic characteristics of “big pharma”: conspiracy, corruption, kick-backs, incompetence, favoritism, plagiarism, falsifying research data, bribery, extortion, blackmail, retaliation. In summary: personal profit first and forget the patients. Let’s face it, nobody can fix the costs of health care, because a portion of the ill-gotten profits go toward campaign contributions and politicians, judges, lawyers and people in general (e.g. jurors) own stocks of big pharma.
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Posted by: karen davis on May 25, 2009 9:04 AM
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Posted by: blurider on May 25, 2009 9:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Campaign and election reform, term limits and lobbying reform!!!!
The U S citizenry can no longer exist with the ILLUSION of 'democracy', the veil that is created for us by our oligarchical, ruling class through the manipulation of elections, lobbying and the privileged refuge now found in lifetime 'public service' and/or the lobbyist's profession.
The quaint notions that 'money is speech' (George Will), that 'the right to lobby one's government', especially, in it's present, distorted permutation is sacrosanct and protected by The Constitution and that the airwaves no longer belong to the people but belong, lock, stock and barrel, to the elites who have 'bought and paid for them' - albeit with our advertising dollars - must finally die. If we can survive that long perhaps they can die a slow death but better that they die quickly and put us all out of our misery!!
If we could break these bonds on our very lives, souls and futures we could heal medical care, end the endless war syndrome, ease the grip of the military industrial complex and it's newest, wicked alliance with 'evangelism and apocalypse' and force our corporations to once again, live on what they could earn by serving the needs of the consumer rather than profits and the stockholder.
One can only imagine the positive effects these changes would have, on the health, wealth and happiness of the average American citizen.
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» Absolutely!
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
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Posted by: saywhat on May 25, 2009 9:24 AM
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Also you may want to check out the reviews of these books on Amazon.com - or any book site.
The advice noted above will help you say well and improve your immune system.
Of course if you're shot or get a broken bone you have to see a doctor, but you will be in better health to survive the ordeal. Come to think of it, I broke a bone and didn't see a doctor. Anyway, it seems we're all on our own.
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Posted by: lunamina on May 25, 2009 9:52 AM
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Posted by: Opal on May 25, 2009 10:14 AM
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Posted by: BlueTigress on May 25, 2009 10:34 AM
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This clown is not paying attention.
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Posted by: frank69 on May 25, 2009 11:46 AM
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The USA has a Profit Care System.
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Posted by: stellabloo on May 25, 2009 11:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is where the real money is, my friends. Harvest the fruit of rapacious corporate conduct as thousands of teary-eyed women in pink line up to Walk for the "Cure" for chemical poisoning. A new blockbuster drug is worth BILLIONS. Heart problems? God FORBID you really think exercise and diet will make a difference - we have a pill for that. Ditto for erectile dysfunction. Vaguely depressed? For God's Sake Man don't light up that joint! We have a PILL for you. Cancer? It's the newest and biggest racket since the government first discovered that, if you shut down the stills, the farmers will be forced to run their tractors on corporate-supplied fossil fuel. Or you thought Prohibition was about the Evils of Alcoholism?
Politics of Cancer
Single-payer healthcare all the way (as someone who lives in a country with universal healthcare and can't imagine any other way in a so-called civilized country). But don't forget to take your doctor with a pinch of salt.
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Posted by: Landbaron on May 25, 2009 11:58 AM
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Posted by: Ghoulman on May 25, 2009 11:58 AM
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Most of the money in the US is really just a subsidy for corporations, who make billions a year off the deaths of the American people.
The actual word is corruption... on a massive scale. Micheal Moore, and this article, barely scratch the surface of a giant industry that tells the US people, and Congress, that they provide health services when in fact they are just making money.
As a Canadian I can tell you, this is a socialist idea. Thus, it's anathema in the US. So watch out! The attitude of Congress is that corporations making money is 'a Right' above the health of the people. Of course, corporations never suffer health problems (they just fire those people) while small businesses would benefit greatly from a healthier work force.
Then, Mexico should do the same.
Ever been in a Canadian hospital? The administration is often a small part of the entire complex. In the US, every hospital has an entire floor, if not more, devoted to accounting. Think about that. Keep thinking...
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Posted by: idear on May 25, 2009 12:03 PM
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There is a shortage of doctors and nurses in this country. The shortage is filled by legal immigrants on H1 visas, doctors and nurses and a variety of other technicians who are trained in other countries and come here to work.
For example, during a recent hospitalization for an injury, my surgeon was from Ireland, 2 of 3 nurses were from the Phillipines and the radiology tech was native USA. Not at all unusual these days.
The idea that the health care system could benefit by competition from other countries seems so out of touch with reality, it must be joke.
Dr. Baker, you usually seem so sensible, did I read this wrong?
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Posted by: wagner on May 25, 2009 2:41 PM
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» RE: Careful with single payer!
Posted by: shakychicken
» RE: Careful with single payer - waiting lists and doctor shortage
Posted by: stellabloo
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Posted by: drp on May 25, 2009 3:26 PM
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A start. But why not go all the way and just repeal the 13th amendment. Then enslave all physicians and make them work for free.
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Posted by: yesman on May 25, 2009 3:50 PM
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Obama may have said the right words during his campaign, but if you expect him to do anything substantive now that he's in office, you are seriously deluded.
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Posted by: socrates2 on May 25, 2009 4:41 PM
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Oh, occasionally a foreign-trained MD is allowed in to meet the burgeoning demand, but the numbers not allowed to enter med schools to be trained is staggering. Consequence, US citizens who study at med schools abroad.
Here in the US, med schools tend to be a grad school affair. Most countries accept prep school grads into Med school to meet their demand. And in those med schools, you either cut it in the rigorous curriculum or you are kicked out.
Bottom line: MD's belong to an air-tight union, an extremely protectionist one. And with their biggest and profitable ally, Big Pharma, lobby year after year to maintain this lucrative status quo.
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Posted by: Hans B on May 25, 2009 4:50 PM
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I'll agree with the author that it is often so that highly paid professions are protected by politicians belonging to their social class, but the argument that free trade would bring prices down makes little sense.
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Posted by: wormfarmer on May 25, 2009 5:34 PM
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Posted by: waterflaws on May 25, 2009 6:16 PM
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Single Payer seems to work very well for MANY Social Democracies and I don't see them staffing with cheap labor from other countries. Healthcare shouldn't be based on a profit, or savings, motive (neither should elections).
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Posted by: kogwonton on May 25, 2009 8:42 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this system were fixed and set up to actually help people rather than milk the public trough, and discourage everyone, we would eliminate possibly the single greatest cause of bankruptcy and mental/emotional anguish in this country. But we all know that helping people is not what capitalism is about. It is about making maximum profits for the least amount of cost. When stocks go up it means multinationals are making more while paying less for resources and labor, and taxes (of course).
To hell with the Dow or NASDAQ. It means nothing in real terms. When stocks go up it only means they are screwing us harder. The pressure had better let up or we will be seeing some shit rolling up hill, and our honorable men and women in our police and armed services will find themselves waging war on their own flesh. They will have to wake up to the fact that there is already a war being wage upon us by Wall St. and Capital Hill. It is a wonder more people aren't simply exploding.
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Posted by: halg on May 25, 2009 8:47 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One thing that is worrisome is that so-called fiscal conservatives oppose single-payer on the basis of ideology; i.e., socialism v. capitalism. But countries that have single-payer systems are saving money and getting better results.
Some Republicans are already getting on board with single-payer because they see it is the ONLY way to save money and get acceptable results. I wish that other right-wingers would drop their ideological objections and be true to their own fiscal conservatism by supporting single-payer.
(I haven't forgotten to mention the Democrats. Congress is all right-wing, with the exception of a very few members.)
Think Green. Be Green. Vote Green.
-Hal
___________________________
"promote the general welfare ..."
Single Payer Health Care!
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Posted by: cori on May 25, 2009 10:09 PM
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Posted by: readera on May 26, 2009 2:07 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://thesearethetimesmagazine.com/0905/
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» C'mon! Gimme more than that!
Posted by: waterflaws
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Posted by: monkeywrench on May 28, 2009 11:09 AM
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Obama turns over $750 billion to Wall Street with nary a stipulation, but forces General Motors, the second largest automaker in the world, into bankruptcy, threatening the suppliers for the rest of the industry and the jobs of, potentially, THREE MILLION workers.
The "war in Iraq continues, and the "war" in Afghanistan is escalated, after Obama having spoken of ending them as a candidate – and with NO MENTION of reining in and prosecuting war profiteering corporations (which, we must assume, are still cashing in on Iraq's misery).
There is, so far, no motivation by Obama's administration to prosecute, or even seriously investigate, Bush administration members for some of the most heinous crimes of the late 20th and early 21st centuries, committed under cover of the highest authority and having destroyed America's reputation in the world. (So far, we have been embarrassed by the Spanish, who are willing to do it.)
None of this is "change we can believe in."
Beware of the Trojan Horse – especially one who speaks in soothing tones.
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Posted by: mmckinl on May 25, 2009 12:25 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Suppose that people in the United States paid twice as much for our cars as people in Canada, Germany, and every other wealthy country. Economists would no doubt be pointing out the enormous amount of waste in the US auto industry. They would insist that we both take advantage of the lower cost cars available elsewhere and take steps to make our own industry more efficient."
And we end up with This ?
"The point would be to set up procedures through which students in countries like Mexico, China, and India could train to meet our standards, and then would have the same ability to practice in the United States as US trained doctors. This could be easily implemented and offer large gains to both countries, especially if the US paid a fee to compensate for the medical training offered to foreigners, so that two to three doctors could be trained for every one that practiced in the United States."
Yes I know, Baker is trying to make a point about the hypocrisy of the ongoing protectionism for health care professionals but his suggestions only serve to muddy the issue of what we need : HR 676 Medicare for All single payer healthcare ... Baker's shoddy attempt at irony hurts health care reform and the chances for a Single Payer system.
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» RE: Dean Baker: Free Trade Delirium ...
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Dean Baker: Free Trade Delirium ...
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Combined systems
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Dean Baker: Free Trade Delirium ...
Posted by: calichepit
» RE: Dean Baker: Free Trade Delirium ...
Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
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Posted by: tmullins on May 25, 2009 3:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.wisecountyissues.com/?p=62
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» RE: We need a cure for health care in America
Posted by: Midway54
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Posted by: JDutty6 on May 25, 2009 4:45 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
RT
Privacy Center
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» RE: Funny
Posted by: wrinklemomma
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on May 25, 2009 5:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although many of us accept the view described by the author, there is another reality that is accepted by many overly influential people as well as many who are not so influential. This alternative "reality" says that we have the very best health care system that the rest of the world can only envy. It says that any attempt to change it will introduce the risk that, not only our health care system but our entire political system and our economy will collapse. Obviously, if this is the world you live in you will reach other conclusions than the author does.
As an example of the thinking in this alternative universe, take a look at the survey at the bottom-right of the page at this link.
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» Racism over facts
Posted by: wbblack
» RE: Coloring the facts
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: ach to his own Facts
Posted by: Archie1954
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Posted by: dcande01 on May 25, 2009 5:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» "The Cruelest Lie"
Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: It just Drives Me Crazy!!!
Posted by: ellie
» RE: It just Drives Me Crazy!!!
Posted by: dcande01
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Posted by: sausage on May 25, 2009 6:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And it would adversely effect the incomes of the medical...or should I say physicians' class, as nurses are woefully underpaid, and upper level managerial class of the health care cabal.
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Posted by: bthespoon on May 25, 2009 6:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The public has no one representing us any more because we do not finance their campaigns.
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Posted by: lisafrequency on May 25, 2009 6:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Insurance is one of the biggest scams going people pay for it so this is the peoples fault. As soon as people stop buying into this scam they will have to change the plan.
Asking the government to fix it is a little like asking the fow to guard the hen house.
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» RE: We pay for that's why
Posted by: lisafrequency
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Posted by: johnwinthrop on May 25, 2009 6:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And remember way back when: you saw one doctor. Now you see two or three. They employ many "techs" and purchase many machines that are replaced almost as fast as your next visit.
And everybody along the way prescribes "medication". The medication comes from the nice well-dressed lady who looks like a model who always seems to be in the doctor's office. She is always waved through the crowd of patients in the waiting room to teach the doctor some new tricks.
And all the specialists, and your "doctor", bill the insurance co. And the second and third doctor you see, "specialists", charge more than the first, though the first sees more patients and deals with more low income people. And the specialists are tied into the hospitals which accredit who? The specialists.
Can you admit patients to a hospital if you are not "accredited"? No. Verboten.
If this were simply a business transaction, it would be a classic model of AntiTrust, PriceFixing. And people would go to jail.
Hi there DOCTOR Convict. Ready for your exam?
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» RE: Show your insurance card before you enter the cell
Posted by: Sympa
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Posted by: jmmartin on May 25, 2009 6:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Greed is the Game
Posted by: johnwinthrop
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Posted by: jpinsatx on May 25, 2009 6:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) MERGE Medicare with Medicaide into one single "Income Based" system for poor and elderly citizens.
2) REQUIRE insurance companies to provide the same basic coverage for ALL Non-Medicare/Medicaide citizens, regardless of health status, at affordable rates.
3) ALLOW insurance companies to "Profit" by offering additional benefits and options to those who qualify and are willing to pay the difference.
As for Funding…
1) Changing from an "Emergency Treatment" to a "Preventive Care" system will save local communities billions, maybe even trillions of taxpayer dollars!
2) Small business will be able to compete globally and hire additional taxpaying employees!
3) Wealthy seniors will pay their fair share!
4) The tremendous burden on future generations will be greatly reduced!
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Posted by: AJR Journal on May 25, 2009 6:59 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is the future if we adopt a government-run health care system.
It is no wonder physician-assisted suicide is popular
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» RE: IRS Compassion,PLUS Post Office Efficiency
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» Tell your Mom I said "Hi"
Posted by: AJR Journal
» Funny thing is, the Postal Service is quite efficient
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Tell your Mom I said "Hi"
Posted by: dcande01
» RE: IRS Compassion,PLUS Post Office Efficiency
Posted by: johnwinthrop
» Overthrow Congress -- Elect Progressives
Posted by: halg
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Posted by: frankly1 on May 25, 2009 7:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The U.S. has the worst "healthcare" Doctors, nurses and Dentists in the world. They have re-written the Hypocratic oath to the effect that it goes... first establish how many things we can get the insurance or medicare pay for, needed or not. Then prescribe as many drugs as you can, especially those that the drug company is paying you to dish out and if the patient/customer is happy...great if they get worse or die oh well thats what liability insurance is for, right! I am not saying that Amercans Doctors and nurses wanted this or like it but "healthcare" in the U.S. is a sickcare business! The corpoate system has turned American health workers into the crackwhores of medicine for thier obscene profits. It will not end as long as the insurance companies rule the business and people believe the propaganda and keep handing them their money.
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Posted by: Beatrice on May 25, 2009 7:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
France has an all-inclusive government-run health-care system. If a tourist becomes ill a doctor comes to the patient's hotel room. And there is no charge.
If this be "socialized medicine," bring it on! Slapping a label on something in no way alters its value.
The US needs a single-payer government-run health-care system. It would take the burden off employers, allow companies to be more competitive, costs would be lower because of economies of scale and negotiatiated drug prices.
Why are the insurance companies at the table?
We don't need "health insurance," we need health care.
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» RE: Beatrice Williams-Rude, citizen, traveler
Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
» RE: Beatrice Williams-Rude, citizen, traveler
Posted by: Redhead5050
» RE: Beatrice Williams-Rude, citizen, traveler
Posted by: yesman
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Posted by: Skeptic10 on May 25, 2009 8:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Baker adds nothing to the debate. In fact his proposals are so ludicrous that he damages the reform effort. The proposal that Canadians (or Italians or the British) would pay for the infrastructure, drugs, doctors fees, etc. in the U.S. in exchange for premiums is laughable. The alternative idea that patients could travel to those countries for ER visits, well baby care, appendectomies, etc. is not only unrealistic, but idiotic. Tripling the number of doctors in the U.S. will also not solve the problem. Health care is not in any way analogous to the auto industry, so why start with that premise? How does this tripe get by the editors at Alternet?
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» Treatment
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: wagner on May 25, 2009 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, how about the basic characteristics of “big pharma”: conspiracy, corruption, kick-backs, incompetence, favoritism, plagiarism, falsifying research data, bribery, extortion, blackmail, retaliation. In summary: personal profit first and forget the patients. Let’s face it, nobody can fix the costs of health care, because a portion of the ill-gotten profits go toward campaign contributions and politicians, judges, lawyers and people in general (e.g. jurors) own stocks of big pharma.
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Posted by: karen davis on May 25, 2009 9:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: blurider on May 25, 2009 9:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Campaign and election reform, term limits and lobbying reform!!!!
The U S citizenry can no longer exist with the ILLUSION of 'democracy', the veil that is created for us by our oligarchical, ruling class through the manipulation of elections, lobbying and the privileged refuge now found in lifetime 'public service' and/or the lobbyist's profession.
The quaint notions that 'money is speech' (George Will), that 'the right to lobby one's government', especially, in it's present, distorted permutation is sacrosanct and protected by The Constitution and that the airwaves no longer belong to the people but belong, lock, stock and barrel, to the elites who have 'bought and paid for them' - albeit with our advertising dollars - must finally die. If we can survive that long perhaps they can die a slow death but better that they die quickly and put us all out of our misery!!
If we could break these bonds on our very lives, souls and futures we could heal medical care, end the endless war syndrome, ease the grip of the military industrial complex and it's newest, wicked alliance with 'evangelism and apocalypse' and force our corporations to once again, live on what they could earn by serving the needs of the consumer rather than profits and the stockholder.
One can only imagine the positive effects these changes would have, on the health, wealth and happiness of the average American citizen.
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» Absolutely!
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
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Posted by: saywhat on May 25, 2009 9:24 AM
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Also you may want to check out the reviews of these books on Amazon.com - or any book site.
The advice noted above will help you say well and improve your immune system.
Of course if you're shot or get a broken bone you have to see a doctor, but you will be in better health to survive the ordeal. Come to think of it, I broke a bone and didn't see a doctor. Anyway, it seems we're all on our own.
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Posted by: lunamina on May 25, 2009 9:52 AM
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Posted by: Opal on May 25, 2009 10:14 AM
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Posted by: BlueTigress on May 25, 2009 10:34 AM
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This clown is not paying attention.
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Posted by: frank69 on May 25, 2009 11:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The USA has a Profit Care System.
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Posted by: stellabloo on May 25, 2009 11:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is where the real money is, my friends. Harvest the fruit of rapacious corporate conduct as thousands of teary-eyed women in pink line up to Walk for the "Cure" for chemical poisoning. A new blockbuster drug is worth BILLIONS. Heart problems? God FORBID you really think exercise and diet will make a difference - we have a pill for that. Ditto for erectile dysfunction. Vaguely depressed? For God's Sake Man don't light up that joint! We have a PILL for you. Cancer? It's the newest and biggest racket since the government first discovered that, if you shut down the stills, the farmers will be forced to run their tractors on corporate-supplied fossil fuel. Or you thought Prohibition was about the Evils of Alcoholism?
Politics of Cancer
Single-payer healthcare all the way (as someone who lives in a country with universal healthcare and can't imagine any other way in a so-called civilized country). But don't forget to take your doctor with a pinch of salt.
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Posted by: Landbaron on May 25, 2009 11:58 AM
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Posted by: Ghoulman on May 25, 2009 11:58 AM
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Most of the money in the US is really just a subsidy for corporations, who make billions a year off the deaths of the American people.
The actual word is corruption... on a massive scale. Micheal Moore, and this article, barely scratch the surface of a giant industry that tells the US people, and Congress, that they provide health services when in fact they are just making money.
As a Canadian I can tell you, this is a socialist idea. Thus, it's anathema in the US. So watch out! The attitude of Congress is that corporations making money is 'a Right' above the health of the people. Of course, corporations never suffer health problems (they just fire those people) while small businesses would benefit greatly from a healthier work force.
Then, Mexico should do the same.
Ever been in a Canadian hospital? The administration is often a small part of the entire complex. In the US, every hospital has an entire floor, if not more, devoted to accounting. Think about that. Keep thinking...
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Posted by: idear on May 25, 2009 12:03 PM
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There is a shortage of doctors and nurses in this country. The shortage is filled by legal immigrants on H1 visas, doctors and nurses and a variety of other technicians who are trained in other countries and come here to work.
For example, during a recent hospitalization for an injury, my surgeon was from Ireland, 2 of 3 nurses were from the Phillipines and the radiology tech was native USA. Not at all unusual these days.
The idea that the health care system could benefit by competition from other countries seems so out of touch with reality, it must be joke.
Dr. Baker, you usually seem so sensible, did I read this wrong?
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Posted by: wagner on May 25, 2009 2:41 PM
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» RE: Careful with single payer!
Posted by: shakychicken
» RE: Careful with single payer - waiting lists and doctor shortage
Posted by: stellabloo
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Posted by: drp on May 25, 2009 3:26 PM
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A start. But why not go all the way and just repeal the 13th amendment. Then enslave all physicians and make them work for free.
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Posted by: yesman on May 25, 2009 3:50 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama may have said the right words during his campaign, but if you expect him to do anything substantive now that he's in office, you are seriously deluded.
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Posted by: socrates2 on May 25, 2009 4:41 PM
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Oh, occasionally a foreign-trained MD is allowed in to meet the burgeoning demand, but the numbers not allowed to enter med schools to be trained is staggering. Consequence, US citizens who study at med schools abroad.
Here in the US, med schools tend to be a grad school affair. Most countries accept prep school grads into Med school to meet their demand. And in those med schools, you either cut it in the rigorous curriculum or you are kicked out.
Bottom line: MD's belong to an air-tight union, an extremely protectionist one. And with their biggest and profitable ally, Big Pharma, lobby year after year to maintain this lucrative status quo.
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Posted by: Hans B on May 25, 2009 4:50 PM
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I'll agree with the author that it is often so that highly paid professions are protected by politicians belonging to their social class, but the argument that free trade would bring prices down makes little sense.
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Posted by: wormfarmer on May 25, 2009 5:34 PM
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Posted by: waterflaws on May 25, 2009 6:16 PM
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Single Payer seems to work very well for MANY Social Democracies and I don't see them staffing with cheap labor from other countries. Healthcare shouldn't be based on a profit, or savings, motive (neither should elections).
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Posted by: kogwonton on May 25, 2009 8:42 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this system were fixed and set up to actually help people rather than milk the public trough, and discourage everyone, we would eliminate possibly the single greatest cause of bankruptcy and mental/emotional anguish in this country. But we all know that helping people is not what capitalism is about. It is about making maximum profits for the least amount of cost. When stocks go up it means multinationals are making more while paying less for resources and labor, and taxes (of course).
To hell with the Dow or NASDAQ. It means nothing in real terms. When stocks go up it only means they are screwing us harder. The pressure had better let up or we will be seeing some shit rolling up hill, and our honorable men and women in our police and armed services will find themselves waging war on their own flesh. They will have to wake up to the fact that there is already a war being wage upon us by Wall St. and Capital Hill. It is a wonder more people aren't simply exploding.
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Posted by: halg on May 25, 2009 8:47 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One thing that is worrisome is that so-called fiscal conservatives oppose single-payer on the basis of ideology; i.e., socialism v. capitalism. But countries that have single-payer systems are saving money and getting better results.
Some Republicans are already getting on board with single-payer because they see it is the ONLY way to save money and get acceptable results. I wish that other right-wingers would drop their ideological objections and be true to their own fiscal conservatism by supporting single-payer.
(I haven't forgotten to mention the Democrats. Congress is all right-wing, with the exception of a very few members.)
Think Green. Be Green. Vote Green.
-Hal
___________________________
"promote the general welfare ..."
Single Payer Health Care!
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Posted by: cori on May 25, 2009 10:09 PM
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Posted by: readera on May 26, 2009 2:07 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://thesearethetimesmagazine.com/0905/
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» C'mon! Gimme more than that!
Posted by: waterflaws
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Posted by: monkeywrench on May 28, 2009 11:09 AM
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Obama turns over $750 billion to Wall Street with nary a stipulation, but forces General Motors, the second largest automaker in the world, into bankruptcy, threatening the suppliers for the rest of the industry and the jobs of, potentially, THREE MILLION workers.
The "war in Iraq continues, and the "war" in Afghanistan is escalated, after Obama having spoken of ending them as a candidate – and with NO MENTION of reining in and prosecuting war profiteering corporations (which, we must assume, are still cashing in on Iraq's misery).
There is, so far, no motivation by Obama's administration to prosecute, or even seriously investigate, Bush administration members for some of the most heinous crimes of the late 20th and early 21st centuries, committed under cover of the highest authority and having destroyed America's reputation in the world. (So far, we have been embarrassed by the Spanish, who are willing to do it.)
None of this is "change we can believe in."
Beware of the Trojan Horse – especially one who speaks in soothing tones.
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