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Environment

Climate Reality Eludes the Business Press

By John Miller, Dollars and Sense. Posted August 27, 2008.


For the Wall Street Journal's editors, fear of a bigger government outweighs the fear of a warmer planet.
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Cap and Spend. As the Senate opens debate on its mammoth carbon regulation program this week, the phrase of the hour is "cap and trade." This sounds innocuous enough. But anyone who looks at the legislative details will quickly see that a better description is cap and spend. This is easily the largest income redistribution scheme since the income tax.
-- Wall Street Journal editorial, June 2, 2008
Climate Reality Bites. Cap and trade is a tax imposed on business, disguising the true costs and thus making it more politically palatable. In reality, firms will merely pass on these costs to customers.
... politicians like cap and trade ... because it gives them a cut of the action and the ability to pick winners and losers. Some of the allowances would be given away, at least at the start, while the rest would be auctioned off, with the share of auctions increasing over time. This is a giant revenue grab.
The Environmental Protection Agency estimates that this meddling would cause a cumulative reduction in the growth of GDP by between 0.9% and 3.8% by 2030.
-- Wall Street Journal editorial, May 27, 2008
The Wall Street Journal's editors are celebrating having dodged a big-government bullet when the cap-and-trade global warming bill sponsored by Joe Lieberman and John Warner, as amended by Barbara Boxer, went down to defeat this June in the Senate.

But the Lieberman-Warner Climate Security Act of 2008 was a fairly low caliber munition in the fight against global warming. While undoubtedly the most comprehensive global warming bill ever to reach the Senate floor, its emission reductions fell well short of those called for by environmental groups or by the Clinton and Obama campaigns.

Inside Cap-and-Trade

"Cap-and-trade," introduced in the 1990 Clean Air Act to regulate sulfur dioxide (SO2) emissions or acid rain, is now the favorite form of environmental regulation for politicians and big business. They find it far preferable to either command-and-control regulation, such as federal directives ordering electrical power plants to install smokestack scrubbers, or emissions taxes, such as a broad-based carbon tax.

Cap-and-trade, referred to variously as incentive-based regulation or market-based regulation, works this way. The federal government sets a mandatory, nationwide cap on carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions that it gradually reduces. At the same time the government requires companies, or any emitter, to hold allowances for their emissions. Typically each allowance entitles a company to emit one ton of CO2.

After the government either auctions off allowances or issues them to companies based on their energy output or usage, holders are free to buy and sell them. Companies that can reduce emissions cheaply, usually those with newer plants, will likely cut their emissions below the standard for their industry and sell their unused allowances (or, if allowances are auctioned rather than issued for free, buy fewer of them), reducing their abatement costs. Companies with relatively high abatement costs, usually those with older plants, can be expected to buy additional permits (either from other companies or the government) at a price well below their cost of abatement so that they can reduce emissions by less than the industry standard. The flexibility, or "non-uniform abatement," afforded by permit trading allows the least costly abatements to be carried out first, lowering the overall cost of meeting any given environmental target.

The Climate Security Act would have required the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to establish a cap-and-trade program to cover U.S. electrical power, transportation, manufacturing, and natural gas sources that together account for 87% of U.S greenhouse-gas emissions. Beginning in 2012, the EPA would steadily reduce the cap on total emissions, down to 71% below their 2005 level by 2050.

Over the life of the program the EPA would auction off the majority of allowances, but initially about 40% would be given away, ostensibly to help industries make the transition to lower emissions. Revenue from the auctions, estimated at $5.6 trillion over the life of the bill, would be used to finance some relief for the poor to offset increases in utility bills, training and assistance for workers, deficit reduction, research on clean-energy technologies, and an array of subsidies for electric and gas utilities, the coal industry, auto manufacturers, oil refiners, and the nuclear industry.

Big But Not Big Enough

That is the giant revenue grab the Journal's editors protest. Still, it's over the top to compare $5.6 trillion over four decades -- that's $147 billion a year, or less than 6% of current federal government revenue -- to the income tax, which increased government revenue nearly eightfold when it became a broad-based tax during World War II. And today, the $869.6 billion collected in payroll taxes in 2007 and redistributed through the Social Security system dwarfs the revenues that would be collected by this cap-and-trade proposal.

Alas, as big as the editors say it is, the Lieberman-Warner plan would not have brought about the 80% emissions reduction (below 1990 levels) the Nobel Prize-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) says is necessary by 2050 to avoid the worst effects of climate change. Next year's new president will be more favorably disposed to regulating greenhouse gases than the Bush administration, which threatened to veto the Lieberman-Warner bill. Barack Obama favors a cap-and-trade system that would reduce carbon emissions to "80% below 1990 levels by 2050" and would "require all pollution credits to be auctioned."

John McCain supports what could best be described as "cap-and-trade lite." His plan would set limits on greenhouse gases at 66% below 2005 levels, not so different from the Lieberman-Warner proposal, but well short of the level recommended by the IPCC. It would issue permits to polluters for free, at least initially, then convene a commission to determine what share of future allowances would be provided for free versus auctioned.

McCain opposed the Climate Security Act because in his view it did not offer enough aid to the nuclear industry. While the support for nukes in the Lieberman-Warner bill was not explicit, it was quite generous. Karl Grossman, host of the nationally syndicated TV program "Enviro Close-Up," estimates that $544 billion in subsidies for the development of new nuclear power plants were buried in the bill. The bill would have effectively doubled government subsidies for the nuclear industry, already the single most subsidized industry in the energy sector -- but that was not enough for McCain.

Auction or Issue?

Besides this alleged revenue grab, what has got the Wall Street Journal editors in a lather is that the Senate bill would have auctioned off the majority of its permits instead of giving them away free.

For environmental groups such as Friends of the Earth, the "polluter pays" principle demands that 100% of pollution permits be auctioned. The amended Lieberman-Warner plan fell well short of that standard. The 40% of permits it would have given away in the initial phase went well beyond the 15% level the Congressional Budget Office estimates affected companies would need to compensate their shareholders for any decline in the value of their stock caused by a drop in demand for energy and energy-intensive products following regulation. In fact, the CBO worries that the bill's permit giveaways could end up as "windfall profits" for oil, gas, coal, and other polluting industries.

Even mainstream, conservative economists disagree with the editors. Greg Mankiw, former chair of Bush's Council of Economic Advisers, headed the list of hundreds of economists who signed the Southern Alliance for Clean Energy (SACE) Economist Statement urging that permits be auctioned off, not given away.

As the SACE statement made clear, whether permits are issued or auctioned will not affect energy prices or deter corporations from passing on the cost of abatement to consumers through higher prices. In either case, market forces of supply and demand will determine those price changes for any particular product. Giving away permits to polluters will not protect families and businesses from higher energy prices.

Indeed, higher energy prices carry a benefit: they prompt energy conservation. That is already evident this summer in the United States, where rising gas prices have driven spending on energy as a share of wage income above 6% -- higher than during the 1974-75 and 1990-91 oil price shocks. Cars now outsell SUVs by the largest margin since 1996, GM is preparing to sell off its Hummer brand, mass transit ridership has increased, and bicycle sales are up.

For an economist, auctions are superior to allocations not because they prevent higher prices but because they ensure the government has the resources necessary to offset those higher costs. How the government spends the auction revenue determines who bears the burden of the cost of cutting CO2 emissions.

Energy price increases are regressive, hitting low-income consumers hardest. The CBO estimates that a 15% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, the goal of the Lieberman-Warner bill for 2020, would cost the poorest fifth of families 3.3% of their after-tax income, but only about half that (1.7%) for the richest fifth of families.

But using only about 14% of the total value of the permits, lawmakers could fund a rebate program that would erase the bill's impact on the poorest 20% of households and provide significant relief to those in the next poorest fifth, according to a recent study by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP). Unfortunately, the Lieberman-Warner bill would have allotted low-income consumers only about half of what the CBPP recommends, and it would have delivered those benefits via a hodgepodge of mechanisms as opposed to the straightforward climate tax credit the center proposed.

Other proposals would devote most or all of the revenue from allowance auctions to compensating consumers for the higher energy costs they would face following new CO2 regulations. For instance, the "sky trust" plan is modeled after the Alaska Permanent Fund, which pays out an annual share of oil earnings to each resident of the state. A sky trust would use the revenue from auctioning off CO2 permits to issue an annual dividend check to every U.S. resident.

How much compensation would such a plan provide? The MIT Emissions Prediction and Policy Analysis model estimates that a cap-and-trade program that cuts carbon emissions to 50% below 1990s levels by 2050, somewhat less stringent than the amended Lieberman-Warner bill, would generate $392 billion in auction revenues in 2020. That sum would finance dividend checks of $963 per person -- enough to compensate all but the most well-to-do households for the higher energy costs they would face if the Lieberman-Warner emissions goal for 2020 were met, according to the CBO.

But these results are predicated on auctioning off 100% of initial allowances and on a political willingness to devote the revenues generated by cap-and-trade regulation to promoting economic justice. Strangely enough, both of these policies should be popular with the Wall Street Journal set. Auctioning all permits would eliminate corporations' incentive to lobby for favorable treatment (i.e., the free permits). In addition, distributing every dollar of auction revenue to the public in the form of dividends would drain Washington's coffers of the money that the federal government might otherwise use to finance the kind of industrial policy adventure that so concerns the Journal editors.

How Fast Will We Grow?

Lawmakers could also devote allowance revenues from a cap-and-trade program to reducing the cost to corporations of meeting the new emissions targets, in an effort to sustain economic growth.

Would the Lieberman-Warner plan, or even a more aggressive cap-and-trade policy, slow economic growth? How much? The answer is not altogether clear and depends heavily on the responsiveness of innovation to higher carbon or energy prices.

The EPA estimates suggesting that cap-and-trade will cause a cumulative reduction in GDP growth of between 0.9% and 3.8% by 2030 reported by the editors are quite alarming. But those estimates need to be examined critically and put into context. First, the Congressional Research Service (CRS) described the upper range of the EPA's estimates as an outlier, quite different from the estimates produced by the seven other models the CRS examined. Among the other models, 2.7% was the largest projected decline in GDP, and five of the seven models projected a loss of 1% of GDP or less.

On top of that, the models' predictions of U.S. GDP in the year 2030 under business as usual (i.e., without cap-and-trade) vary far more than their projections of the economic impact of a carbon cap. When Nathaniel Keohane and Peter Goldmark of the Environmental Defense Fund examined these same studies, they found that each of them projects average U.S. economic growth of 2.5% to 3% a year over this period, and each predicts the U.S. economy will be more than twice as large in 2030 as it was in 2005 even after taking into account whatever dampening effect cap-and-trade has on economic growth.

As they put it, these economic models predict that U.S. GDP will reach $26 trillion around January of 2030 under business as usual. With a carbon cap, it will get there by April.

While not cost free, cap-and-trade regulation is "surprisingly affordable" according to Keohane and Goldmark. Plus, the size of U.S. GDP two or four decades from now will depend more on other macroeconomic conditions than on the cost of curbing carbon emissions.

A Green Industrial Policy

Along with a partial cap-and-dividend program or a rebate for low-income consumers, there is a case to be made for spending much of the revenue from auctioning permits on an environmental industrial policy to dramatically reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. Pioneering environmental scientist and activist Barry Commoner insists that public policy needs "to confront the corporate domain at its most powerful and guarded point -- the exclusive right to govern the systems of production" if it is to transform the environment and the economy.

"If managed properly, ending dependence on fossil fuels and building a clean energy economy could generate millions of good jobs," argues economist Robert Pollin, co-director of the Political Economy Research Institute. Pollin estimates that investments in conservation and renewable energy to match a 25% cut in spending on fossil fuels over a 20-year period would produce a net increase of about 2.5 million jobs. Sadly, that is not what the Climate Security Act of 2008 was about. It devoted more monies to fossil fuel and coal than to promoting renewable energy, clean technology, and mass transit.

But fixing the climate, as Commoner has always said, will not happen with half-measures that reward corporate America.

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John Miller is professor of economics at Wheaton College and a member of the Dollars & Sense collective.

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View:
If You Use Politics Rather Than Science To Determine The Problem You End Up With The Wrong Solution
Posted by: opmoc on Aug 27, 2008 3:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The IPCC is a political movement that employs "scientists" to "prove" that CO2 is responsible for Global Warming.

Policies are then adopted (at least by most Western Governments) in order to "solve" this problem.

Global Warming then morphs from a political movement into a religious one.

Meanwhile the majority of the Worlds actual scientists see no evidence whatsoever that CO2 levels have any significant effect on climate.

But who cares about the truth?

Well I do. I am passionate about protecting the environment for current and future generations - but realise that the human race can do nothing to change the climate.

The climate changes all by itself - naturally. It always has and it always will. The only things the human race can do is modify its behaviour to cope with changes in climate. The human race is not responsible for climate change - and cannot hope to control it.

If the Earth/Sun relationship results in things heating up - or cooling down - we can't stop that change - but can only react to it.

But because you have been so indoctrinated - you don't believe this - so are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist - whilst ignoring all the really important environmental issues.

http://chemicallygreen.com/global-warming-australia/

"Dr. Evans Reverses His Position on CO2 and Global Warming

Today, Dr. Evans has revered his position on CO2 causing global warming since he started working in the office in 1999, “new evidence has seriously weakened the case that carbon emissions are the main cause of global warming.” By the year 2007, the evidence is conclusive: carbon played only a minor role in recent global warming and was not the main cause.

Dr. Evans put together some basic facts for the public and government officials in regards to global warming.

1. The greenhouse signature is missing. We have been looking and measuring for years, and cannot find it.

2. There is no evidence to support the idea that carbon emissions cause significant global warming.

3. The satellites that measure the world’s temperature all say that the warming trend ended in 2001, and that the temperature has dropped about 0.6C in the past year (to the temperature of 1980).

4. The new ice cores show that in the past six global warmings over the past half a million years, the temperature rises occurred on average 800 years before the accompanying rise in atmospheric carbon. Which says something important about which was cause and which was effect.

Keeping that last point in mind, Al Gore still preaches in his movie that the ice cores are the sole reason for believing that carbon emissions cause global warming. Dr. Evans says, “In any other political context our cynical and experienced press corps would surely have called this dishonest and widely questioned the politician’s assertion.”

The world has spent $50 billion on global warming since 1990, and we have not found any actual evidence that carbon emissions cause global warming. Evidence consists of observations made by someone at some time that supports the idea that carbon emissions cause global warming. Computer models and theoretical calculations are not evidence, they are just theory."

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Global Warming Myths and Facts [From EDF]
Posted by: Squarehead on Aug 27, 2008 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Global Warming Myths and Facts
MYTH
The science of global warming is too uncertain to act on.
FACT
There is no debate among scientists about the basic facts of global warming.

The most respected scientific bodies have stated unequivocally that global warming is occurring, and people are causing it by burning fossil fuels (like coal, oil and natural gas) and cutting down forests. The U.S. National Academy of Sciences, which in 2005 the White House called "the gold standard of objective scientific assessment," issued a joint statement with 10 other National Academies of Science saying "the scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action. It is vital that all nations identify cost-effective steps that they can take now, to contribute to substantial and long-term reduction in net global greenhouse gas emissions." (Joint Statement of Science Academies: Global Response to Climate Change [PDF], 2005)

The only debate in the science community about global warming is about how much and how fast warming will continue as a result of heat-trapping emissions. Scientists have given a clear warning about global warming, and we have more than enough facts — about causes and fixes — to implement solutions right now.
MYTH
Even if global warming is a problem, addressing it will hurt American industry and workers.
FACT
A well designed trading program will harness American ingenuity to decrease heat-trapping pollution cost-effectively, jumpstarting a new carbon economy.

Claims that fighting global warming will cripple the economy and cost hundreds of thousands of jobs are unfounded. In fact, companies that are already reducing their heat-trapping emissions have discovered that cutting pollution can save money. The cost of a comprehensive national greenhouse gas reduction program will depend on the precise emissions targets, the timing for the reductions and the means of implementation. An independent MIT study found that a modest cap-and-trade system would cost less than $20 per household annually and have no negative impact on employment.

Experience has shown that properly designed emissions trading programs can reduce compliance costs significantly compared with other regulatory approaches. For example, the U.S. acid rain program reduced sulfur dioxide emissions by more than 30 percent from 1990 levels and cost industry a fraction of what the government originally estimated, according to EPA. Furthermore, a mandatory cap on emissions could spur technological innovation that could create jobs and wealth. Letting global warming continue until we are forced to address it on an emergency basis could disrupt and severely damage our economy. It is far wiser and more cost-effective to act now.
http://www.edf.org/page.cfm?tagID=382

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Dear opmoc, ref your quotation from 'The Australian' (A Murdoch press publication)
Posted by: Squarehead on Aug 27, 2008 8:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear opmoc, ref your quotation from 'The Australian' (A Murdoch press publication) I found this from Dr Evan's original:
""Dr. Evans Reverses His Position on CO2 and Global Warming"
* Global warming might be due to a side-effect of industrialization other than carbon emissions. Possible causes include atmospheric reactions of industrial chemicals that hinder the rate of low cloud formation.
* Global warming might be primarily due to a non-human cause, such as something related to the sun or to underground nuclear reactions. If this cause persists over the next 20 years, as it has for the last 30 years, then I will lose, but if it fades in the next decade, then I win.

I emphasize that we are making a bet involving odds and judgment. The evidence is not currently conclusive either for or against any particular cause of global warming. I think that it is possible that carbon emissions are the dominant cause of global warming, but in light of the weakening evidence I judge that probability to be about 20% rather than the almost 90% as estimated by the IPCC.

I worry that politics could seriously distort the science. Suppose that carbon taxes are widely enacted, but that the rate of global warming increase starts to decline by 2015. The political system might be under pressure to repay the taxes, so it might in turn put a lot of pressure on scientists to provide justifications for the taxes. Or the political system might reject the taxes and blame science for misinforming it, which could be a terrible outcome for science because the political system is powerful and not constrained by truth.

Some people take strong rhetorical positions on global warming. But the cause of global warming is not just another political issue that is subject to endless debate and distortions. The cause of global warming is an issue that falls into the realm of science, because it is falsifiable. No amount of human posturing will affect what the cause is. The cause just physically is there, and after sufficient research and time we will know what it is."


This is not quite as hard and fast as you are assuming; those of us who ask for care in environmental matters are simply being that. Careful.

As regards CO2 and its effects, the issue is more complex than most naysayers acknowledge. Some more stuff from EDF

"MYTH
Water vapor is the most important, abundant greenhouse gas. So if we’re going to control a greenhouse gas, why don’t we control it instead of carbon dioxide (CO2)?
FACT
Although water vapor traps more heat than CO2, because of the relationships among CO2, water vapor and climate, to fight global warming nations must focus on controlling CO2.

Atmospheric levels of CO2 are determined by how much coal, natural gas and oil we burn and how many trees we cut down, as well as by natural processes like plant growth. Atmospheric levels of water vapor, on the other hand, cannot be directly controlled by people; rather, they are determined by temperatures. The warmer the atmosphere, the more water vapor it can hold. As a result, water vapor is part of an amplifying effect. Greenhouse gases like CO2 warm the air, which in turn adds to the stock of water vapor, which in turn traps more heat and accelerates warming. Scientists know this because of satellite measurements documenting a rise in water vapor concentrations as the globe has warmed.

The best way to lower temperature and thus reduce water vapor levels is to reduce CO2 emissions.
MYTH
Global warming and extra CO2 will actually be beneficial — they reduce cold-related deaths and stimulate crop growth.
FACT
Any beneficial effects will be far outweighed by damage and disruption.

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cause and effect
Posted by: edgar1 on Aug 27, 2008 4:21 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there is no valid cause and effect study that links manmade activities to globa warming that
will cause destruction of humans on a massive scale.

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» RE: cause and effect Posted by: yellow
Would the extinction of Homo Sapiens have an economic impact?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Aug 31, 2008 10:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Environmental policy = energy policy
Energy policy = environmental policy
because Global Warming
can lead to Hydrogen Sulfide gas coming out of the oceans.

Hydrogen Sulfide gas will Kill all people. Homo Sap will go
EXTINCT unless drastic action is taken.

October 2006 Scientific American

"EARTH SCIENCE
Impact from the Deep
Strangling heat and gases emanating from the earth and sea, not
asteroids, most likely caused several ancient mass extinctions.
Could the same killer-greenhouse conditions build once again?
By Peter D. Ward
downloaded from:
http://www.sciam.com/
article.cfm?articleID=
00037A5D-A938-150E-
A93883414B7F0000&
sc=I100322
....................Most of the article omitted......................
But with atmospheric carbon climbing at an annual rate of 2 ppm
and expected to accelerate to 3 ppm, levels could approach 900
ppm by the end of the next century, and conditions that bring
about the beginnings of ocean anoxia may be in place. How soon
after that could there be a new greenhouse extinction? That is
something our society should never find out."

Press Release
Pennsylvania State University
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, Nov. 3, 2003
downloaded from:
http://www.geosociety.org/meetings/2003/prPennStateKump.htm
"In the end-Permian, as the levels of atmospheric oxygen fell and
the levels of hydrogen sulfide and carbon dioxide rose, the upper
levels of the oceans could have become rich in hydrogen sulfide
catastrophically. This would kill most of the oceanic plants and
animals. The hydrogen sulfide dispersing in the atmosphere would
kill most terrestrial life."

www.astrobio.net is a NASA web zine. See:

http://www.astrobio.net/
news/modules.php?op=
modload&name=News&
file=article&sid=672

http://www.astrobio.net/
news/modules.php?op=
modload&name=News&
file=article&sid=1535

http://www.astrobio.net/
news/article2509.html

http://astrobio.net/news/
modules.php?op=modload
&name=News&file=article
&sid=2429&mode=thread
&order=0&thold=0

These articles agree with the first 2. They all say 6 degrees C or
1000 parts per million CO2 is the extinction point.

The global warming is already 1.3 degree Farenheit. 11 degrees
Farenheit is about 6 degrees Celsius. The book "Six Degrees" by
Mark Lynas agrees. If the global warming is 6 degrees
centigrade, we humans go extinct. See:
http://www.marklynas.org/
2007/4/23/six-steps-to-hell-
summary-of-six-degrees-as-
published-in-the-guardian

"Under a Green Sky" by Peter D. Ward, Ph.D., 2007.
Paleontologist discusses mass extinctions of the past and the one
we are doing to ourselves.

ALL COAL FIRED POWER PLANTS MUST BE
CONVERTED TO NUCLEAR IMMEDIATELY TO AVOID
THE EXTINCTION OF US HUMANS. 32 countries have
nuclear power plants. Only 9 have the bomb. The top 3
producers of CO2 all have nuclear power plants, coal fired power
plants and nuclear bombs. They are the USA, China and India.
Reducing CO2 production by 90% by 2050 requires drastic action
in the USA, China and India. King Coal has to be demoted to a
commoner. Coal must be left in the earth. If you own any coal
stock, NOW is the time to dump it, regardless of loss, because it
will soon be worthless.
I have no financial connection to the nuclear power industry.

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Al Gore is correct to predict the fall of civilization
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Sep 1, 2008 5:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps the drought in Atlanta, Georgia, California, Australia, Greece, Turkey, the
Sahel, China and other places would interest the Wall Street Journal? Changes in
soil moisture affect crop yields, and everybody knows this. Both Jared Diamond,
the author of "Collapse" and Brian Fagan, the author of "The Long Summer,"
blame minor climate changes for the collapse or as a factor in the collapse of many
civilizations. Jared Diamond points out that present time environmentally stressed
countries are the same countries that are suffering breakdowns of government,
genocide, terrorism, and so on, because the citizens of those countries are hungry
or starving. Food is the issue to communicate to the masses. If it doesn't rain in
Iowa, or if it rains too much in Iowa, what are Americans to eat?
Another thing you have going against you is religion. In "Collapse, How
Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed," Jared Diamond discusses how religion has
played a role in the collapse of some civilizations. Christianity contributed to the
collapse of the Greenland Viking civilization. Religionists will, of course, resist
any change in values regardless of the fact that a change in values is necessary for
survival. This is an issue of the preachers' income. In the end, the preachers may
be eaten, but it is too late by that time. Yes, "Collapse" has its gory points.

The fall of civilization may have the following "benefit": The
burning of fossil fuels will crash along with the crash of
civilization and population. That would at least postpone the
even bigger disaster of human extinction. The bad news: YOU
should expect to be in the 99.99% that dies in a typical civilization
crash.

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