COMMENTS: 222
Electric Cars Are the Key to Energy Independence
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He got two out of three right. A crash renewable electricity initiative would provide an immediate boost to our economy and could slow climate change, since electricity accounts for about a third of our overall greenhouse gas emissions.
But it would do little to enhance our national security.
Oil generates only 3 percent of our electricity. Therefore a 100 percent renewable electricity system does little to reduce our oil dependency -- unless that electricity is used to substitute for oil in our transportation system.
Al Gore knows this. In other venues he has mentioned electrified vehicles. But he needs to make electrifying our transportation the central element in his 10-year plan, for at least two reasons.
One is that it is an initiative that would prove far more compelling to the vast majority of Americans. Climate change is abstract, and the strategies to resolve it are remote. Our relationship to our vehicles, on the other hand, is both concrete and visceral. We desperately want to get off oil, especially when gasoline prices rise to $4 per gallon.
But it is more than a pocketbook issue for many of us; it is a moral issue. Americans hate being dependent for our mobility, and therefore for our livelihoods, on countries often hostile to our way of life. Electric cars promise to end that dependency.
And as a bonus, with rooftop solar cells, we can become independent not only from OPEC but from remote and often unresponsive utility companies. We can become energy producers as well as energy consumers.
And then there is the plain fact that once significant numbers of electric vehicles are on the roads, word of mouth will be a powerful marketing tool. The reason? As Marc Geller, a longtime advocate of electric vehicles, told me a year ago as we were traveling up Route 1 in Northern California in his all-electric small SUV, "Anyone who drives an electric car falls in love with an electric car." That love affair will be aided and abetted by a population eager to embrace a homegrown fuel and vehicles that offer quicker propulsion, a quiet drive and zero tailpipe emissions.
There is another persuasive reason for Gore to focus on an electrified transportation system: It is simply physically impossible to convert our entire electricity system to renewables in 10 years, but it is possible to convert our entire ground transportation system to renewable electricity within a similar time frame. That would require a national mobilization, to be sure, but it can be done.
Converting our electric system fully to renewables would require us to shut down about 80 percent of our current electricity-generating capacity, much of it low-cost, already paid off and capable of generating electricity for another 25 years or more. Moreover, to reach very high penetration rates of renewable electricity would require that we overcome the principal shortcoming of wind and sunlight: intermittency.
To electrify our transportation system, on the other hand, we could displace rather than shut down the existing system, and we would be replacing a physical stock with a relatively short life expectancy. Given the average seven-year life expectancy of existing vehicles and the high probability that we would offer an incentive for owners of older gasoline-powered vehicles to trade them in, new electric vehicles could constitute the entire fleet within a decade, and that doesn't take into account the potential for conversions of existing vehicles.
Powering 100 percent of our transportation system would require about 30 percent of the electricity generated in 2006. With a massive effort, using a combination of solar and wind power, we could generate about that much electricity by 2020.
The fact that we can even contemplate the rapid electrification of transportation is a testament to 20 years of grassroots activism at the local and state level. The enactment by Congress of a renewable electricity tax incentive in 1992 was important, but the wind energy industry did not take off until states began to mandate renewable electricity. Today more than 25 states boast such mandates. A recent report put together by a task force of California leaders urges the state to double its renewable electricity mandate to 50 percent by 2020.
We have done a great deal, from the bottom up, to increase the supply of renewable electricity. Less well known is how much we have done on the demand side of the equation, that is, the use of electricity in transportation.
A brief historical review might be in order here. The first electric utilities were born largely to serve the transportation sector, which in the late 19th century meant urban streetcars. Until 1920, transportation remained the nation's utilities' single largest customer. And as the birth of the automobile age began, electric vehicles were by far the most popular. In the late 1890s electric vehicles (EVs) outsold gasoline cars 10 to 1. Many of the first car dealerships were exclusively for EVs.
The future of transportation abruptly changed in the 1910s. Mass production of gasoline-powered cars dramatically lowered their price. The introduction of automatic ignition removed the difficult and dangerous task of cranking to start the gasoline engine. Meanwhile the infrastructure for electricity was almost nonexistent outside city boundaries, limiting the utility of electric vehicles.
For the next 70 years, electric transportation all but disappeared.
Then, in 1990, two events occurred to revive the prospects of electrified vehicles. One was a private sector initiative; the other a public sector initiative. One was technology driven; the other politically driven.
In 1990, Sony introduced the lithium ion battery. Its higher energy density quickly made it the battery of choice for electronic equipment. Over the next 10 years, as portable electronic equipment demanded more powerful and longer-lasting batteries, the lithium ion battery industry saw many technological advances. In the last five years, many variations of that battery have begun to vie for supremacy as the foundation for a new generation of electric vehicles.
The public initiative was California's Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Mandate. Enacted in 1990, the mandate required that 2 percent of all new vehicles sold by major car manufacturers in that state be all-electric by 1998, and 10 percent by 2003. By 1994, 12 additional states had adopted its mandate.
If that mandate had remained in place, more than 10 million EVs might be traveling our roads today. But as the marvelous documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car?" reveals in depressing detail, the ZEV mandate was weakened in the 1990s and finally killed in 2003.
Notwithstanding its demise, the mandate did result in several important and positive outcomes. One was the hybrid vehicle, whose development was in part an outgrowth of the vigorous developments in electrical and electronic vehicle systems spurred by the ZEV mandate. Another was the advance in large-format battery technology after many decades of stagnation. The new Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) battery replaced the lead acid battery for ZEVs sold in California, and by the late 1990s, a second-generation NiMH promised to last the life of the car, almost halving the capital cost of an electric vehicle. (Tragically, patent disputes have stifled NiMH development.)
Perhaps the most important enduring legacy of the ZEV mandate was the creation of tens of thousands of Californians who experienced the pleasure of driving or being driven in full-size electric vehicles capable of high-speed, long-distance highway driving. "Who Killed the Electric Car?" portrays what seemed to be a futile grassroots effort to stop car companies from taking back their EVs and crushing them.
Yet even as the movie ends, the uprising began to gain traction. GM proved incorrigible. But creative and extensive protests here and abroad persuaded Ford and then Toyota to cease crushing their vehicles and begin offering them for sale. Reportedly, Chris Paine, the director of "Who Killed the Electric Car?" is making a new movie titled "Who Saved the Electric Car?" It promises to be a very uplifting sequel.
At its peak, the ZEV mandate brought some 5,500 electric vehicles onto California roads, ranging from Ford's small Think Car to Toyota's small SUV, the RAV4, to Ford's light pickup truck, the Ranger.
After the protests ended and the dust cleared, more than 800 electric vehicles were saved, most of them RAV4s. Some have now traveled more than 110,000 miles, validating both the durability of the batteries and the vehicles' remarkably low maintenance costs.
The EV movement was aided and abetted by the introduction, in 2004, of the second iteration of the Toyota Prius. The best-selling car sported a mysterious blank button on the dashboard. Via the Internet, Americans were told that in Japan the button was operational. Pushing it allowed the car to travel solely by electricity for a mile or so. Engineers in Texas and California quickly learned how to convert the Prius to drive solely on electricity, and they added sufficient battery capacity to travel 10 and then 20 and then 30 miles before recharging was needed.
Several start-ups began to offer plug-in hybrid electric (PHEV) conversions. Felix Kramer, the Paul Revere of the movement, spent the next two years trying to convince national reporters, members of Congress, Silicon Valley businesses and even EV advocates, many of whom believed a car with a gas engine was a sacrilege, that a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle could become the foundation for a transition to an electrified transportation sector. Kramer convinced a leading car industry reporter based in Michigan to run a story, which quickly translated into dozens of stories in the national media. In the spring of 2006, he spent $15,000 to transport his own converted Prius PHEV to DC and allow several senators and leading policymakers and opinion leaders to literally kick the tires and drive in it.
At the time fewer than a dozen Prius conversions existed in the entire country. But the work of organizations like Plug-In America and Plug-In Partners and Kramer's own CalCars began to seize the popular imagination.
In just the last 12 months, the dam against electrified vehicles seems to have broken. For the first time since 1910, an oil-free transportation system is on the table.
New announcements by businesses large and small have become almost a weekly occurrence. Hymotion, a small company affiliated with Internet giant Google and the MIT spin-off, battery maker A123, has begun to roll out a nationwide network of certified plug-in hybrid converters.
Toyota, which for the first six years of Prius sales used the advertising tag line, "You Never Have to Plug It In," announced in 2007 an abrupt change of mind. In 2010, Toyota will begin leasing plug-in Priuses in Japan. GM, which had originally loudly and sarcastically dismissed the concept of hybrids, announced it will offer a plug-in hybrid with a 40-mile driving range in 2010. Nissan, VW, Renault and other car manufacturers have all announced their intention to introduce electric vehicles in the same time frame.
In July 2008, San Jose announced the beginning of a network of easily accessible and useable EV-charging stations in parking garages around the city. San Francisco followed with its own request for proposals for a similar citywide network.
On the political front, the current energy bill stalled in Congress because of Republican opposition: The bill contains a tax incentive for plug-ins sufficient to make the first cost of such vehicles nearly competitive with conventional vehicles.
The energy bill signed into law just before Christmas in 2007 includes a little-noticed but very powerful incentive for all-electric vehicles. For purposes of meeting the new higher fuel efficiency standards, all-electric vehicles will be awarded an efficiency rating based largely on the amount of gasoline displaced, which translates into an overall fuel efficiency rating for a typical mid-size EV of about 350 miles per gallon.
And on the customer level, gasoline prices of $4 per gallon have generated a palpable hunger for alternatives and changed the comparative economics of EVs and gasoline-powered vehicles. Driving a mile on electricity today costs about 3 cents while traveling a mile on gasoline costs about 15 cents. This can translate into annual fuel savings of more than $1,000.
The advent of EVs may change not only the contours of our transportation system but also the structure of our electricity system. The unique characteristic of the electricity system is that the product must be instantaneously transmitted and no storage capacity is available. This is the reason Enron and others were able to manipulate the system in deregulated California 10 years ago, a manipulation that led to the near bankruptcy of the state and continues to burden the state budget.
The prospect of a large battery capacity contained in tens of millions of electrified vehicles could be, in the words of one utility executive, "a game changer." Utilities, eager to nurture a potentially large new customer, are also vigorously assessing how this new electric capacity can be integrated into the existing distribution and subtransmission parts of the grid system.
Some studies have estimated that utilities could pay an EV owner several thousand dollars a year to tap into the car's batteries when needed for energy used to keep the local grid stable. The vehicle would be available for such tapping a considerable percentage of the time. A typical vehicle sits idle some 23 of 24 hours a day. Millions sit in commuter parking lots for eight hours a day.
A large storage capacity could also ameliorate the intermittency problem of renewable energy, which in turn could allow a much higher proportion of renewable electricity on the grid. One study of the Sacramento, Calif., electricity network concluded that a significant penetration of battery-powered vehicles could boost the potential wind energy contribution to about 50 percent of total electricity generation.
EVs might spur a profound relocalization of our electricity system. I discovered the intimate link between electric vehicles and decentralized electricity in the spring of 2007, when I spent a week in California driving or being driven in a variety of electrified vehicles, from glorified golf carts to PHEVs to the "0 to 60 in less than 4 seconds" Tesla. I was invited by a national travel magazine to investigate the future of the car based on my 2003 report on the subject, "A Better Way." Everyone I met who had an EV or a PHEV also had solar cells on their roofs. And why not? Not only does it make them more energy self-reliant, but the value of the electricity generated by the solar array is far higher when it displaces gasoline than when it displaces conventional electricity.
Indeed, a symbiotic relationship between car and house may be emerging. California has time-of-day tariffs under which electricity consumed at peak hours, say, midday on a hot summer's day, can be several times more expensive than electricity consumed during nighttime odd-peak hours. If EV owners must use electricity at peak times, they can tap into the stored electricity in their vehicles. The EV serves as a source of backup power for the house. More than one EV owner boasted about how his was the only house with lights on when the neighborhood suffered a blackout.
If Congress enacts its electrified vehicle incentive, we should see an immediate surge in conversions and new PHEV and EV sales. In 2010 several EV and PHEV models should be available from major car companies, albeit in small quantities, and these should allow us to gauge the costs of an all-electric transportation system.
If I were Al Gore, I would ask Congress not only to pass the EV incentive but also to phase in a mandate for an all-renewable-fueled transportation fleet, perhaps beginning with 5 percent of all new vehicles by 2012 and moving toward 100 percent by 2020. A call to arms would resonate with the American public. And as both consumers and citizens, Americans could quickly translate their support into a mass movement to finally eliminate our addiction to oil.
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Posted by: mmckinl on Aug 2, 2008 12:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First because we are facing Peak Oil. Crude Oil will only get geometrically more expensive as the world begins depletion and supplies stagnate then relentlessly shrink even as world demand accelerates. Our economy will crash with ever higher prices for fuel.
Second because it is the only way to salvage our suburbs. EVs are cheaper to produce, to maintain and to fuel allowing suburbanites affordability that will keep them in place and rescue what would become great ghettos and vast abandoned housing tracts. We don't have the room in our cities for everyone to move back in. Eventually, over time much more environmentally efficient housing will happen but we can't do it all at once.
Third because it will reduce pollution dramatically. Even electricity from coal is cleaner than burning gas and diesel.
Fourth for national security. We are now dependent on unstable countries and long supply lines to get 60% of our crude oil.
A great article everyone should read and get others to read. We must move to EVs.
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» RE: Outstanding Article ... EVs Are Our Only Hope ...
Posted by: richholland
» Correct, EVs Are Our Only Hope ...
Posted by: jlohman
» RE: Outstanding Article ... EVs Are Our Only Hope ...
Posted by: sheena2u
» Outstanding Comment, Sheena!
Posted by: Spyder
» RE: Outstanding Article ... EVs Are Our Only Hope ...
Posted by: ATH
» RE: Outstanding Article ... EVs Are Our Only Hope ...
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» RE: Outstanding Article ... EVs Are Our Only Hope ...
Posted by: mmckinl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmckinl on Aug 2, 2008 1:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is the battery electric car is cheaper to buy (-50%), cheaper to maintain (-90%) and cheaper to fuel (-60%). And there is the problem, fewer parts and less asssembly means lots fewer workers to tax, far less profit from parts suppliers and carmakers to tax. Then there are the gas and sales taxes, Federal , State and local that would evaporate. Banks and car companies would lose all that loan interest from cheaper models. Gas Stations would disappear. Car repair work, smog certificates and tire shops would all be cut way back. Car Insurance would have to go down as prices went down along with speed limits causing fewer accidents and fewer injuries. Where's the money for the roads to come from?
The internal combustion engine is a tax revenue machine.
Where do you go to raise the tax money to suport the War Machine, the Homeland Security Honeypot and the Healthcare Hegemoney? Who does that leave to tax? Them that has the Money!
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» RE: And the Bad News ... The Internal Combustion Engine will be saved at any cost ...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» RE: And the Bad News ... The Internal Combustion Engine will be saved at any cost ...
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» RE: And the Bad News ... The Internal Combustion Engine will be saved at any cost ...
Posted by: lenteach
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» RE: Yes, let's save the cars ... And the Economy?
Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: And the Bad News ... The Internal Combustion Engine will be saved at any cost ...
Posted by: Livemike
» RE: And the Bad News ... The Internal Combustion Engine will be saved at any cost ...
Posted by: tarnishedreality
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Posted by: jhecht on Aug 2, 2008 2:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"We could further increase the value and efficiency of a Unified National Grid by helping our struggling auto giants switch to the manufacture of plug-in electric cars. An electric vehicle fleet would sharply reduce the cost of driving a car, reduce pollution, and increase the flexibility of our electricity grid."
Why didn't the author point this out?
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» The manufacturers already know ....
Posted by: jlohman
» switch to plug in cars would overload the grid
Posted by: billwald
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Posted by: Rod on Aug 2, 2008 4:21 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Batteries wear out. Lithium has a high density and a short to medium life. Lead acid has a short life, and NiCd and NMh are low density medium cost, all wear out and cost to replace.
Windgenerators need maintained, they get hit by lighting, bearings fail, the blades need cleaned, on a tower this is not cheap.
It is unfair and unrealistic to describe the nirvana of EV without a frank discussion of the dark side, and these problems may never be solved, just improved.
Most of us have families that are spread out and we do place a high degree of importance on seeing them, long distance travel by EV is not really possible, and even IF batteries are unproved 10 times it will not compete with internal combustion in range, time, and cost until gas is a lot more expensive than now.
We will have EV's. they will be far from perfect
Rod
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» RE: The rest of the story
Posted by: jhecht
» Flawed Logic
Posted by: jeffreyd00
» RE: The rest of the story
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: The rest of the story - rational comment
Posted by: CalKid
» RE: The rest of the story
Posted by: wthwaites
» RE: The rest of the story
Posted by: lenteach
» RE: Solar cells don't "wear out"
Posted by: DanoM
» RE: The rest of the story
Posted by: ranger1
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Aug 2, 2008 4:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When we were grabbe by the balls in the '70's by OPEC Americans Screamed for Change.
Innovators began building possible solutions in their garages- eelctric car is about 20 yrs old!
the Auto industry only scaled down once the Japanese car sales started kicking their ass.
so thanks to the deals the western Oil Coprs made with the oppressive Oil Royals of the M.E.- Prices went down, and they auto industry responded in kind by re introducing SUV's with illegitmate marketing tactics- Selling 'Elitism', a symbol of Rank, Social Status - they targeted Egos.
This tactic is NO diffeent and just as deadly as the Tabacco Companies lies and Deception.
Americans not only wanted US out of ,and off M.E, Oil for economic reasons - we wanted out because our citizens had been held Hostage for over a year, planes were being Highjacked, bodies being thrown on to tarrmacks....We KNEW then that to continue to do business in the M.E. would cause far more National Security Issues. anyone alive then - or having read history regarding- Was NOT Surprised by 9/11- In fact saw it for what it was- the Result of decades of Corps flirting with a national disaster- Economically and Security.
who did not realize the Lies Bush spewd "No one expected such attacks'- BS! they had been highjacking planes since the '70's, they hit the WTC in '93,Our Gov't had previous contact with Binny in the '80's- when our Gov't aided his band of fighter against the Russians! Who didn't think We would also be seen as 'conquering Powers' becasue of th enumerous US Flags flying around Oil Fields & refineries!
Who hasn't figured out 9/11 was NOT an attack on Americans- but an Attack on the entity which has used US as camoflague/Human shields....The MIC!! More Accurately the Military/ Oil complex, which has been allowing Saudi Arabia to Breed and instill anti US Sentiment- Afghanistan was just the 'Off to College' country. And why would the Royals want to encourage such hatred of US - because it deflected the blame for the Human condition in their region away From THEM!
so now we not only have Treason charges these Oil/Auto industry execs should face, but also War crimes and Crimes against Humanity. They are th ecause for All deaths in not only these 2 wars - but th enumerous they have been involved with throughout the world- in a quest for the Modern worlds black "gold". The actions which have caused this speculated commodity to skyrocket has lead to food shortages and faimine.
So when Indictments for High Crimes are finaly being issued- we Must not forget those in the Oil AND Auto industry who have spent 30 yrs leading US not only to 9/11, but to todays economic Fall Out!
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» RE: Indict Oil & auto industry Execs for Treason
Posted by: Livemike
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Posted by: wellaware lec on Aug 2, 2008 5:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go to HYBRIDFEST website and you can tap into all sorts of great info. Also, cleanmpg.com superb website for info on many levels re. this topic. I now have been driving a hybrid for several years and feel great about that. Where I live, Madison, we have the most hybrids/Priuses/capita in nation, so I see hybrids everywhere I drive in this town. Fascinatingly, once I leave city limits, they immediately become very unusual to view. Prius easiest to identify because of shape.
NEV's now approved in Madison and several other cities. Lots of variety in styles/options; one company producing these in Reedsburg, WI. and the dealer is in Stoughton, WI. Go for a test ride! NEV's can go on roads 35 mph or less. Completely electric.
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Posted by: HughScott on Aug 2, 2008 5:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Of course electric cars will work!
Posted by: richholland
» Excellent point, Rich.
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Of course electric cars will work!
Posted by: sheena2u
» Sheena, please post your excellent comment on the thread so other AlterNetters will also benefit!
Posted by: HughScott
» Even better golf carts
Posted by: PaulK
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Aug 2, 2008 5:32 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They were in office at the time and not a whimper came from them as GM removed and DESTROYED all the EV1s that people were fighting to buy.
All were leased at the time and GM would not allow them to be bought. (See the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car")
Why does not Gore, even NOW, ask GM to bring IT back? Not the pie in the sky Chevy volt which is estimated to cost 50K.
Gore and Clinton are pseudo heroes, who fiddled while Amerikkka started to self destruction under the helpful eye of corporate Amerikkka.
There is NO leadership in this country and based on the two bozos who are running, there is none in sight either.
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» RE: Where was Gore...
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: Where was Gore...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» RE: Where was Gore...
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: Where was Gore...
Posted by: cmaciain
» Yes, let's save the cars.
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» RE: Where was Gore...
Posted by: BlackbirdHighway
» RE: I guess we could argue about time lines...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
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Posted by: ATH on Aug 2, 2008 5:42 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately, it's probably not going to happen because most humans are easily fooled by the sold-out, corporate controlled media, and oil companies have so much control over our politicians.
What's going to happen is, our economy is going to completely collapse very soon, because we've waited far too long and done too little too late--actually, we really haven't done anything at all, STILL! We saw this problem coming back in the 1970s when oil production peaked in the U.S.
If we'd started then, we could have done it. Do you realize how long it will take to transform our infrastructure? And they will never allow us to make and control our own energy. No way.
We've been takin' it up the yoo yoo for a long time; unfortunately, we've been more concerned with Michael Jackson & Britney Spears and who she's currently banging, and a bunch of other banal subjects, that we haven't paid attention to what has been going on.
This country lost its freedom back in 1913 when the bankers tricked and bribed Congress into passing the Federal Reserve Act--giving the power of issuing our currency to a private corporation run by the greediest, most immoral men to ever disgrace the face of this planet..at least until W and Cheney came along.
We let them get away with assassinating JFK, Martin Luther King, Jr., beating in the heads of college students for protesting...Most humans are just plain stupid, unfortunately. The only way we could take back this country is if all 330 million of us stood up and demanded accuntability and truth.
The founders believed we should have a revolution every 20 years. Well, maybe that was a little radical, but not much. Now, there's no way to stand up to the kind of weapons they have unless, as I said, ALL of us stood up, and that's not going to happen because most people are still spending the majority of their time sucking on what Harlan Ellison called "The Glass Teat" in his book of the same name--TV! The most mind-numbing device ever created, and now that they control the media--who were once trustworthy--they control the minds of most Americans..or what little minds they have.
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» David Model
Posted by: david.model@senecac.on.ca
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Posted by: lclark on Aug 2, 2008 5:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An overall plan would include :
-an electrical based transport system by rail for goods to be moved around the country, with EV trucks for local transport of goods. That national system could also include convenient ways of moving personal vehicles over long distances when traveling.
- improving the rail system (electrical based) so that rail travel was as convenient as plane travel.
-replacement of local public transportation with EV vehicles.
-the augmenting and gradual replacement of electical generating facilities with renewable methods so that electricity was both abundant and cheap. Some may argue that the maintenance of wind turbines are labor intensive and expensive compared to central power generating facilities, but that has to be compared to exporting those dollars to buy oil versus generating jobs and opportunities...manual, manufacuring, and engineering/technical joba at home. ( As a bogus solution you see the phony two-parties offering nuclear as a solution, even though nuclear fuel is itself a limited and controlled fuel source and the disposal of nuclear waste remains and unresolved serious problem.)
- yes, the wind and sun are 'intermittent', but the problems with these have a number of known solutions and the overall availability of ample and even flow of electricity throughout the nation is primarily dependent on improving the grid so electricity can be efficiently transported form places where it is being generated to where it is needed.
- as an aside, wind turbines should also be placed on family farms to augment their income to allow them to continue to produce food in a market that has become dominated by multinational corporations that have gained control of the purchase and distribution of food supplies to store chains. Abundant and cheap electricity would also provide incentives for farmers to mechanize more of the labor associated with farming.
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» RE: A fully electric car
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: A fully electric car - not new
Posted by: CalKid
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
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Posted by: shortpantz on Aug 2, 2008 5:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is not one good excuse for not moving to electric vehicles as soon as is humanly possible. We need to push hard on manufacturers and legislators to look at where we are and make these changes right now.
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» RE: So How Obvious Is This?
Posted by: Namaimo
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
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Posted by: Abe on Aug 2, 2008 6:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
goto
www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html
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» RE: Air Cars
Posted by: PaulK
» RE: Air Cars
Posted by: Squarehead
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
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Posted by: sheena2u on Aug 2, 2008 6:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Existing railways need to be optimized, and more tracks and stations need to be built. More ride sharing and public transportation needs to be available, and more electric vehicles need to be available to the public. More bicycle paths, too, need to be made available to the public.
We are essentially out of oil. We may need oil for plastics and other necessities in the future, and we cannot be so visionless and clueless by talking about further drilling for oil, or further jumping to the tune of the oil companies every time they throw around their considerable weight, and say jump.
We can't use fossil fuels any more. Floods, drought, earthquakes, hurricanes of unusual force and frequency are with us now, just as had been predicted. No matter how unified or smart we think we can be, there is a point where there will be nothing we can do to save ourselves. We may still have time, but we are playing Russian Roulette with the future of humanity for every day we delay meaningful action.
Not just Vice President Al Gore, but Senator Barack Obama, and every leader in the world has to know this, and must move now. I believe Senator Obama has the good sense, and vision, to understand the problems we face, and the will to move and challenge Americans to make the changes necessary to save our world from total catastrophe and destruction.
In the 21st century the old attitudes toward oil, coal, gas, and nuclear power must be new, and we must change to honestly clean renewable power such as solar, tidal, geothermal, small hydro, wind, and biomass. We must change to electric cars, and widespread, viable public transportation with trains and electric vehicles. We have no more time to waste, to wait, or to lag behind.
There must be a way to end the chokehold the oil companies have on America. The oil companies can diversify and invest in honestly clean renewable energy, and do their part for life on the planet, and still prosper.
The EV was taken off the roads some ten years ago for suspicous reasons, and under suspicious circumstances. See the documentary, "Who Killed the Electric Car," for confirmation that we have had viable EV technology since at least the 90s. However, some of our very first vehicles were electric, so we have, of course, had it for much longer than that. It is time to bring the EV back, and we must do it now, not soon, but now.
The party is over. The jig is up. The tipping point has passed. We have to be sane, and move to clean technology like clean renewable energy and EVs, and shun excuses and demand better than more delays or lies such as clean, safe nuclear and "clean coal." We need EVs on the roads, and for public transportation. We are out of oil for transportation, and we need to conserve it for other uses. The airline companies, too, will have to undergo a major shift rather than the desperate bandaid measures they have been scrambling to put in place for the last several years.
Of all the candidates, Senator Obama seems to be the best bet for any hope of vision and progess in these important areas in the next few years. We do all have to work together, and we do not have an unlimited number of years to ponder what to do. We have a good enough understanding already that we cannot use fossil fuels in the same manner as in the 20th century, and that major, dramatic shifts in energy use and modes of transportation, among other conservation methods will be required of us from now on.
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» Thanks for reposting your excellent comment.
Posted by: HughScott
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
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Posted by: ATH on Aug 2, 2008 6:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But the story was buried because people started realizing, by asking questions, that to rig a building of that size for wireless demolition usually takes a week, and no amount of rushing could have pulled it off on that day--which means, if it was demolished, it was set at least two or three days prior to 9/11.
A steel-framed building has never collapsed from fire alone--ever. The 9/11 Commission report doesn't even mention WTC 7, and NIST said, in their report, that their best hypothesis for collapse--fire--was very unlikely.
What about the over two million dollars from "put options" placed on United and American airlines that still remains unclaimed? Privacy rules protect any reporter from finding out who placed those bets, but Congress could subpeona the information.
Why was the steel from the buildings, in violation of Federal law concerning disturbing a crime scene (which Guiliani, being a former prosecutor, knew damn well was wrong), and which could have helped determine why two buildings that were designed to withstand multiple impacts from jumbo jets (and they weren't that much smaller when the building was designed, and actually had a faster rate of flight, giving them an equal or greater impact potential)collapsed at near free-fall speed directly down into their footprints, hauled all the way to China and melted down? Steel is expensive..why give it to China?
Why and how did Hani Hanjour, the supposed pilot of the plane that supposedly hit the Pentagon, whose pilot instructors said could barely fly a single engine Cessana, make an elaborate and totally unneccesary turn when he could have just flown straight in and hit the Pentagon? And why aim for the very narrow side, instead of diving into the very big target of the top, which would have caused more damage? Instead, he makes several manuevers that professional pilots say would be difficult for even the most seasoned pilot, to fly at 500 MPH just yards above the ground, and hit such a small target with pinpoint accuracy? Do you know the kind of skill that would require, to guide such a huge craft, at that speed, where the building would be approching incredibly rapidly, but manages to not even scrape the lawn?
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» RE: ATH [PLEASE, stop focusing on hypotheses
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: ATH
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ATH on Aug 2, 2008 6:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And then, professional pilots, after examining the data from the black boxes, have said there's no way that plane, on the trajectory recorded on the black box, severed those light poles...
What caused the pols of molten steel in the basements of all 3 WTC buildings, when everyone aknowledges the fires were not hot enough to melt steel, let alone hot enough to not only melt it, but keep it in that liquified form, for days(at least one day, but I think it was more like 2 or 3) after the event? What about the Israelis who recieved a warning through an email to evacuate the building, and broke their lease to get out? Why were all the warnings ignored, and then when it happened, they told everyone in the other tower to just stay put, instead of evacuating them?
The whole thing stinks to high heaven. It's also been proven that many of the phone calls that were made, did not come from those planes. For instance, United 93 (I think that's the right plane), it turns out, didn't even have plane phones, and all the cell phone calls were made when the plane(s) were well below 30,000 feet. The government possesses voice-morphing technology so sophisticated that I could call you, using this technology, and you would not be able to tell it was me and not your mother, or whomever I wanted to be. Besides, who calls their mother and uses their last name? Like, "Hi, mom, this is John Doe, your son. You believe me, don't you?" was one of the calls that were supposedly made.
I knew the day it happened, when there was no military response in over two hours, that this was somehow allowed or assisted to make happen. The other explanation, that there was massive failure and incompetence on every level of the system..well, it's like a 50 million to one chance.
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» RE: ATH
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 2, 2008 6:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
P.S.: What about the winter? I'm not so sure electric cars can handle the colder days. Anyone from the upper north want to fill me in on this one?
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» RE: Ok? But aren't we gonna need a hell of a lot of coal and nuclear to meet the guzzler's demands?
Posted by: sheena2u
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: wjfaust on Aug 2, 2008 7:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Leave automobility behind
Posted by: sheena2u
» To an extent - but not necessarily for everyone, right away, completely...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: To an extent - but not necessarily for everyone, right away, completely...
Posted by: Squarehead
» I'm not a physicist, but apparently travel times for zeppelins weren't all that bad, either..
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I'm not a physicist, but apparently travel times for zeppelins weren't all that bad, either..
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Leave automobility behind
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
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Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals on Aug 2, 2008 7:23 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Semi Trucks, Pick up's, Farm vehicles, Dump Trucks, Plow Trucks
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: Semi Trucks, Pick up's, Farm vehicles, Dump Trucks, Plow Trucks
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» PickUps
Posted by: gellero1
» RE:I cut my own grass...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ATH on Aug 2, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I did see "Who killed the Electric Car" and those cars were fast, quiet, and could be plugged into a regular socket, with an adaptor, if I remember correctly.People loved them. Yeah, at the time, they could only go 60 miles on a single charge, but that would meet most people's everyday driving needs; and then, if you needed it, the gas could kick it, but at a 100 M.T.A.G. you could go very far on very little.
Yet these cars, bright and shiny, were taken and destroyed, except for one or two that went to museums. Why do you suppose that was?
They can solve all these problems, and all the arguments against doing it are bull--the oil companies just don't want to give up their record profits. Exxon Mobile made the largest profit ever made in history in its last fiscal quater. It just takes Congress to demand that they use a large amount of that money to design a vehicle that meets all the standards we need them to. It can be done, the people want it done, but as long as the oil companies continue to weild so much influence, it's not going to happen. It's not an engineering problem, it's a political problem. And now, a time problem, and a money problem. We could have all kinds of things, like Universal Healthcare, if it wasn't for the oil companies driving foreign policy to cause us to wage illegal wars fought with the blood of our brave soldiers for reasons they've been lied to about. It's always been about oil, and 9/11 is the excuse for perpetual war, which is why it's so important to expose that lie.
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» Yes, lets save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
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Posted by: williameon on Aug 2, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Way to go Americo.
KICK the Habit!
Kick the Oil Pushers out of Government.
Conservation,
Raise MPG standards
Increase Efficiency
Invest in GREEN energy solutions,
Across the board.
Trillions for War and nothing for U.S.
Sounds fishy to me!
Cut out the Corpirate Middle Man.
End the Fossil Fuel Age now.
Nationalize all energy reserves and resources
for National Security Reasons.
Do you believe that Big Oil has your best interests at heart?
GREED is the bottom lie, it's their motivating factor.
GREED is a negative human trait.
It works great for the RICH and very badly for U.S.
We are the victims!
We pay for it.
While they get hundreds of billions in Corporate welfare, billion dollar bailouts and 500 million dollar Golden parachutes.
We get the shaft!
You pay,
Every time you pump.
WAR TAX!
Stop the war and gas will drop by 50%!
The same Corpirates that overthrew our Government,
Control the Media and
Censor the News,
Spy, Lie, Torture and Terrorize us.
Who is getting Fu-ked? and Why?
What are we going to do about it?
How long can you sit and take it?
After Loosing our jobs, homes, savings and Social Security?
What's left?
While Dead Eye Laughs and the Monkey dances?
75% of The Government and Military have been privatized.
Including the clandestine services.
Just check the list of who they were Spying on in 2004 in New York.
Ben who?
No!
Me and you.
They're is no separation of power,
When the same Corpirate Mercenaries run all branches of Government, Media and Industry there is no freedom.
It is Anarchy.
Monolithic Corporate Totalitarianism.
Beware
The Military, Media, Banking,
Industrial Complex!
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Posted by: popsicle67 on Aug 2, 2008 7:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
until all of the people who get rich from oil figure out how to make the same money from electricity.
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» RE: We'll never get that independence
Posted by: KeithRichardRadfordJr
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Posted by: opmoc on Aug 2, 2008 8:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To convert from petroleum to electric vehicles would require at least a doubling of the current electricity supply. That means twice as many powerstations and greatly beefed up distribution network.
Whilst this is possible, the idea that all this extra energy can come from solar is physically impossible due to the limitations of the sun's energy.
There are also major environmental and efficiency problems with batteries. Batteries can only be charged about 500 times and require enormous amounts of energy to produce and are made from exceedingly toxic heavy metals.
Electric vehicles can work well though - particularly in towns and cities where they are driven via a directly connected current, that doesn't require batteries.
It would be far more sensible if these vehicles were publicly owned and shared - like buses and trains - but with far greater availability and desirability - such that travelling in them was a significantly better experience than being in a private car.
There is a great deal of mis-information about all kinds of alternative transport due to the massive research funding involved. The better the story the more funds that are likely to be forthcoming
Without massively increased electricity power generation which can probably only come from nuclear on a long term basis, the replacement of millions of petrol vehicles with electric ones simply cannot work.
Why there won't be a solar powered car
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» RE: The Problem with Solar Power And Electric Vehicles
Posted by: chrysalis124812
» I think the idea is to feed solar- and wind-generated power into the electricity grid...
Posted by: mjabele
» The problem is that Solar Power can Only Provide a Tiny Fraction Of Current Energy Use
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: The problem is that Solar Power can Only Provide a Tiny Fraction Of Current Energy Use
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: The problem is that Solar Power can Only Provide a Tiny Fraction Of Current Energy Use
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: The problem is that Solar Power can Only Provide a Tiny Fraction Of Current Energy Use
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: The problem is that Solar Power can Only Provide a Tiny Fraction Of Current Energy Use
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The Problem with Solar Power And Electric Vehicles
Posted by: sheena2u
» I live about 12 miles from the Centre of London I haven't driven a Car into London For Over 15 Years
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: The Problem with Solar Power And Electric Vehicles
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: The Problem with Solar Power And Electric Vehicles
Posted by: opmoc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tim Chadron on Aug 2, 2008 8:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Politicians are always talking about how they will create jobs. Well, seems to me that if they jumped all over this alternative energy gig, they would actually be able to truthfully say that in supporting such initiatives, they would actually be creating 1000's of jobs. Good jobs. High paying jobs. Jobs that created something useful for all of society. Indeed, for all of the world.
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» RE: Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Tim Chadron
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Posted by: ujerdr on Aug 2, 2008 8:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Logic in following paragraph is faulty.
"Oil generates only 3 percent of our electricity. Therefore a 100 percent renewable electricity system does little to reduce our oil dependency..."
Logically, even if oil generates only 3 percent of our electricity, that could take all of our oil.
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Posted by: practical idealist on Aug 2, 2008 8:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The End Point And The End Game
Prologue:
With the rise of communist China, the advent of peak oil, and an unresolved economic crisis in the United States, it’s not hard to see that history is at turning point. Peak oil and a foundering economy are threatening challenges. But how should we perceive China? First of all we need to get rid of the communist label. Communism is the end state of historical materialism. The inexorable push of economic determinism that ultimately leads to the collapse of capitalism and then finally to communism—a worker’s utopia.
So better said, China is a nation ruled by Marxists whose mission, towards this end, is to overthrow the existing order by beating capitalism at our own game.
Still, for us, history is determined by our free will as we put forward the ideas to meet the challenges that a changing world presents. Yet up to this point we seem to be at loss. And neither Obama nor McCain, as they seek the White House, has presented a clear strategy either for economic recovery or ideological victory. And while we embrace democracy and free markets, ideas that Marxists see as a meaningless reflection of capitalism—brave words in the face of their ultimate demise, they too need an update.
So, given the gravity of these issues it’s best that we consider the worst-case Marxist scenario and then consider the practical idealism that can resolve these challenges.
For full text go to: http://theendpoint.blogspot.com/
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Posted by: PaulK on Aug 2, 2008 8:26 AM
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The second EV company is Nissan. They are preparing to flood the Los Angeles market with semi-affordable electrics in 2010.
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» RE: Two EV car companies
Posted by: clvngodess
» RE: Two EV car companies
Posted by: sheena2u
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lenteach on Aug 2, 2008 8:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
so nothing works well and we live with it anyway.wait for a bus and see how that feels.ride with strangers standing up,with shoving and pushing,yelling and music,cell phone talk and wet clothes on rainy days.Like it? or take the train and pray you arrive in one piece.
oil is over and China and india are speeding it up.we have no options,just like the stable owners and carriage makers of the 1800's.what is done is done.you can keep looking and drilling but it will be gone in minutes and won't be back.Science will save us but we have to wait and make do.our lives will change but they do anyway.drunks miss their booze but do much better sober.we will too.
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» RE: the days of oil and roses are over
Posted by: sheena2u
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Posted by: paulmagillsmith on Aug 2, 2008 9:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For over a week I have watched the oil bribed Republicans in Congress thwart any efforts that would shift us substantially away from oil, and toward cheaper, sustainable, less geo-politically disruptive power sources. Their continued repetition of the 'drill, drill, drill' mantra is not only extremely deceptive, but flat out wrong. T. Boone Pickens even stated, "We can not drill our way out of this (crisis regarding oil)", and this from the lips of a billionaire oil man.
Sadly, amongst all this talk of electric vehicles, short shrift has been given to the power of air. I'm not talking about wind power, which we desparately need, but compressed air as a source of vehicle propulsion.
Other countries understand the potential of the 'air car', and India will release the first mass produced model next year (2009). France & Australia also have good working models, and will likely follow suit soon, too.
Google 'air car' for more info including videos of working models.
BTW, air can be compressed and stored in underground caverns (depleted oil wells?) by solar cells & wind power, to be used later to generate electricity at 'peak demand' times...and piped to air car service stations. The underground storage caverns are the same basically as huge batteries, meaning the negative comments about wind & solar being intermittent, and electricity going out on the grid must be used immediately, are stated from lack of information or imagination.
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» RE: "Only hope?" I think you are overlooking air power
Posted by: jstepp590
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: adempatriot
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Posted by: mtnprivy on Aug 2, 2008 9:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Gizmos and Gimmicks
Posted by: jstepp590
» RE: Gizmos and Gimmicks
Posted by: mgmyers79
» RE: Gizmos and Gimmicks
Posted by: mtnprivy
» RE: Gizmos and Gimmicks
Posted by: mtnprivy
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Aug 2, 2008 11:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
jdfu!
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Posted by: jstepp590 on Aug 2, 2008 11:17 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: whiterhino on Aug 2, 2008 12:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: No Cars Are the Key to Energy Independence
Posted by: ellie
» I drive a Prius, and it hasn't maxed out yet even above 80mph.....
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I also drive a Prius and it's the best car I have ever owned!
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
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Posted by: paulmagillsmith on Aug 2, 2008 12:44 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would also point out that teleworking has been measured & proven to increase production & job satisfaction.
Why isn't this being done on a national level?
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» RE: Tim Kaine, the progressive Governor of Virginia
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Voicedude on Aug 2, 2008 1:07 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More on it here:
TESLA
To paraphrase the documentary, we already know who killed the electric car.
But maybe the car buying public can resurrect it!
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mgmyers79 on Aug 2, 2008 2:12 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can no one see that it is dependence that is the problem here, not foreign countries? Electric cars are in the same paradigm as the system that brought us salmonella tomatoes, Exxon Valdez spill, and weak New Orleans levees. Decentralization is our only way out of this mess, and that happens to include transportation. Those expecting techno fix for our troubles are facing culture shock when:
their electric cars break down after a few years, the American dollar collapses, all those renewable electricity projects get canned for lack of funds and credit, and there are no parts/exhorbitant costs for parts and labor to fix the cars.
Centralization makes you reliant on the forces of centralization which are concerned only with accumulating your wealth/power, using it to further centralize society. Our dependence is not on foreign countries but on the elite in this country, and this elite is the enemy.
Decentralize: take control and accept responsibility for the harshness of life in the industrial system American leaders have been championing as our birthright since WWI. There are no easy way out, and the electric car is an easy way out.
Ask yourself, will the electric car be built for experts to work on, or will it be designed to be fixed without hi-tech equipment?
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» RE: The electric car is NOT a solution
Posted by: billwald
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Posted by: sunspot on Aug 2, 2008 2:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: willymack on Aug 2, 2008 5:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: reinaldok on Aug 2, 2008 6:04 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 1910 oil production was really just getting into full swing and you can rest assured that the neo-cons of that era did everything possible to keep the electric cars locked far, far away. Just think how different the world would be with successful electric or non fossil fuel cars.
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» RE: 1910
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
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Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 2, 2008 8:57 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» HEMP and Nano-Solar can fill in the electricity gaps.
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: HEMP and Nano-Solar can fill in the electricity gaps.
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: HEMP and Nano-Solar can fill in the electricity gaps.
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: radwriter on Aug 2, 2008 8:59 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Coal is the the most abundant and the dirtiest form of electrical energy we have. Coal-fired power plants are the most common in more places than any other. Thanks to Bush's "Clear Skies Initiative", they have not become any cleaner in this century.
From an environmental point of view, all that plug-in electrics do (today in most of America) is trade one form of pollution (significantly reduced over the last 40 years) for another (not seriously reduced). You may feel righteous that your vehicle isn't generating the pollution, but the power plants that power your vehicle are belching dangerous pollutants into the air at a horrendous rate. In addition to carbon, they are spreading heavy metals that drop onto the soil and into the oceans to the point that we must limit the amount of many popular seafoods we eat because of the mercury in them.
The day will come when plug-ins will be a great vehicle, but that day won't come until the electrical grid is strengthened to handle the extra load and can move electricity more efficiently from one coast to another. The grid will have to be powered by far cleaner sources than at present. And electric vehicles will have to be rechargeable is less than 10 minutes; many of us have to drive more than 500 miles in a day from time to time. Most will not willingly wait at a truck stop for hours waiting for a "refill" (and at what cost -- not likely at our residential rates).
It is most likely that biofuels will be the preferred fuel for long distance travel while electricity will be preferred for commuter (including mass transit) and errand-running local travel.
The point is that we must begin doing all of this now. The era of petroleum-based energy is ending. It is long past time to find clean, sustainable and reliable domestic sources. If we look at the problem in a holistic fashion, the solutions are fairly obvious as is the urgency to achieve them. Let's get on with it.
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
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Posted by: hilly7 on Aug 2, 2008 9:33 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If EVs are powered completely by solar, aside from the electrical current which may interfere, actually will, with our health, it is bad. There are more to consider than just air with electrical cars. Electrical fields are proven to cause sickness and disease. Electricity has frequencies, some heal, some disrupt. The occupants would need to be shielded from the fields. That only leaves the wildlife.
While oil isn't the ideal solution, certainly electricity isn't either. Type in "Mountain Top Removal", and check your results. After you read about where and how the coal is obtained, type in Mercury. Burning coal releases Mercury. Our bodies can't live with Mercury. Research Mercury related diseases.
Now we are down to Nucleur. Check out Russia's experience with oops. To get rid of that much delpeated Uranium we would need a few more wars, oh yea, forgot, this one will last 100 years. That is what the ammo we use is made from. Could that be what is making our men and women in uniform sick, as well as "the enemy"?
There are clean alternatives using the very vehicles we have on the road today. Joe Cell. There are motors that generate their own inertia driven energy, they were in use in the 70s, maybe earlier.
There is a BIG push to reduce Carbon Footprints, it's called death. Very profitable because on the reduction scale, Big Pharma and medical get their cut, because you will need care before you die. Big Coal companies and Nucleur companies get their cut. Wells Fargo and others get their cut financing. The world banks get what they want because they will lend what can not be paid back, so they get the collateral. In Brazil's deal, the world banks now own the Amazon River Basin. Population goes down and the older are weeded out, replaced by younger, dumber (if that is possible) people, able to buy more, work harder, and be even more decieved.
Like the CFL bulbs, there is a hook. I even fell for that one. It is Mercury. When the alternative is worse than the disease, are we winning? Now I really don't expect anybody to take my word on it, reseach it yourself. While you research, research something else, H.A.A.R.P. Could this be partly the reason behind droughts, famines, floods, heat, storms and more sickness? It is also proven.
We do need good alternatives and they have been around for many years. The next time someone gives you an alternative or agenda, ask youself, who benefits (follow the money).
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: CFLs - Truth
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Urgelt on Aug 2, 2008 9:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is a source which puts it at 13 years - which may even be a bit low:
http://www.safecarguide.com/gui/new/neworused.htm
My Dodge Caravan, with manual transmission and a 2.4-liter 4-banger, is 21 years old. It gets about 25 mpg on the highway.
Maybe that's just a quibble. Here's a somewhat more substantive difference of opinion.
The entire notion of using ton-and-a-half of steel and glass monsters for all of our personal travel is one which could arise only because energy was cheap. And boy, was it cheap. There was a lot of very easy-to-extract oil in the world, and it took a long time to extract most of it.
But easy-to-extract oil is going the way of the dodo. What's left is harder, and more expensive, to get out of the ground.
Then there's demand for oil, which is rising rapidly, mostly because of economic success in China and India and other third-world countries. They're modernizing, they've got money now, and they want ton-and-a-half steel and glass monsters to ride around in, too.
Rising oil influences the cost of electricity very directly. Coal depends heavily on petroleum-fueled equipment and transportation, for example. Right now electricity is cheaper per unit of energy than oil, but the cost of electricity is going up. It'll rise even more as our nation gears up for some very expensive investments in solar and wind, in additional electrical infrastructure, and in such oddities as two-way metering (letting you sell power to the electric company as well as buy it).
All of this should lead us to rethink our reliance on these big personal vehicles as our only transportation option - whether electrically-driven or not.
Now, I'm not anti-electric car. I'm all for 'em, which is why I characterized this post as "Begging to Differ - Slightly." But I think we shouldn't say things like "the electric car is the only solution." Actually, it isn't.
If you really want to reduce your transportation energy costs, think about a bicycle.
Ah, that's right, a bicycle can't carry enough stuff to be useful. Or if you did load it down with 150 lbs of groceries, it would be unstable, and you'd need to be an olympic athlete to get it to move.
If you think that, you're ignoring two new developments in bicycles.
The first is the longtail - basically a sturdy mountain bike that's been elongated, so there's room directly over the rear wheel to carry cargo. It rides like a normal bike, isn't much heavier, and it is stable and comfortable under loads of 200-440 lbs of cargo, depending on model.
You can use it to carry a passenger (or two children). You can use it to buy a microwave at Wal-Mart and haul it home. You can fill up a grocery cart to the brim, pay for it all, wheel it out to the parking lot and stuff it into the panniers (bags) on your bike, and pedal home. It's stable under a big load, unlike the bikes you're used to.
Slap an electric assist on that baby, and you can ride uphill with a heavy load at up to 20 mph without breaking a sweat - and get the equivalent of 400 mpg or better.
For your shorter trips and errands, a bike like this will let you leave your car parked. That's an energy savings regardless of whether your car is gas-powered, electric, or runs on a cage full of hopping frogs. (Hey, frogs have to eat.)
So let's not say that the electric car is "the only solution" to our transportaton woes. It isn't. The sooner we get the word out, the better for all of us.
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» For More Information
Posted by: Urgelt
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Aug 3, 2008 6:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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» Yes, let's save the pretty cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mnstra on Aug 3, 2008 7:04 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How much can we effect change and conservation now ?In the mean time we must reduce speed limits in our highways, mandate reduced use our A/C in skyscrapers etc. We can have the benefits now.of conservation.
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Posted by: jwverez on Aug 3, 2008 8:13 AM
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: jwverez on Aug 3, 2008 8:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: Cherenkovrad on Aug 3, 2008 10:33 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Electricity must be made. It does not magically appear. Most of our electricity is made with coal, a non-renewable resource which will peak in 15 years, not to mention poisoning our planet to the point of our extinction. Nuclear energy is a sick, sadistic joke. Not only are we about to peak in uranium at current usage rates, precluding any ramp up to further folly, these plants will prove to be poisonous little enclaves for foreseeable human history. Natural gas is also peaking despite the various so-called shale plays which have yet to prove economic.
Tidal, geo and all the other secondary solar sources are unreliable and their knock on effects are unexplored. Many species in the ocean rely upon certain tides, currents, and other ocean movements to determine everything from food availability to mating habits.
No. EVs are just another nail in the coffin--a fancy really cool nail that seems kinda green, but a nail nonetheless.
Quit trying to save the cars and start trying to save the planet.
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» HEY, solar panels are getting improvements in development. Ever heard of NANOTECHNOLOGY?
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: HEY, solar panels are getting improvements in development. Ever heard of NANOTECHNOLOGY?
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» RE: HEY, solar panels are getting improvements in development. Ever heard of NANOTECHNOLOGY?
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Yes, let's save the humans
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: Yes, let's save the cars.
Posted by: BlackbirdHighway
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AnnaLeo on Aug 3, 2008 11:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We obviously need to develop wind, solar, biomass, etcetera. IN ADDITION, we need to look at what we WASTE every day and use it for energy --
1. REAL RECYCLING & RE-USE.
(a) Scoma’s Restaurant in San Francisco is a great example of what is possible if people just learn and care! They recycle or re-use 95% of their stuff and even their truck(s) run on “grease-diesel”. What incentives or challenges would encourage other restaurants to alter their mindsets and follow this example?
(b)75%+ of the stuff in landfills could be recycled or re-used, or converted to power.
2. WASTE MANAGEMENT Inc. does operate some biomass conversion plants associated with landfills, and sells power to local utilities – but this is small and not widespread, and is limited to incinerable materials.
3. PLASMA GASIFICATION. Our most reliable renewable resource is our endless waste-stream -- Municipal Solid Waste. Even the newer lined landfills start to leak and leach out in 25-30 years. A plasma converter “vaporizes” ALL types of waste, including medical and hazardous waste.
> Mine the landfills and keep on converting our waste stream to energy!
A plasma conversion plant should be built adjacent to every major landfill site – and when they convert the trash that has accumulated, they could continue to convert trash as we produce it.
> SMALL GRIDS ARE BETTER
With good planning, these facilities could serve smaller regional areas, removing people from the humungous power grids that are inefficient, destructive land use, and great terrorist-targets.
> WHY NOT IN THE U.S.?
For example,
A PLASCO ENERGY group demo-facility in Ottawa, Canada processes 85 tons of MSW per day. Who is doing this in the U.S.?
STARTECH has installed operational Plasma Converters in: Australia, China, Costa Rica, European Union, Japan, Panama, Poland, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, and the United Kingdom.
In addition, the U.S. Army is using Plasma Converters in some field locations.
> BUT WHAT ABOUT U.S. DOMESTIC USE OF PLASMA CONVERTERS? Puerto Rico has new facilities to process MSW (hard to dispose of endless trash on an island) and Rhode Island converts hazardous & toxic waste.
The U.S. has a tendency to try to avoid alternatives. In part, this attitude is fueled by the petroleum industry.
For further information, please visit http://www.startech.net. Especially look for their 10 top FAQs!
> PLEASE PASS IT ALONG . . .
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Posted by: jbloggz on Aug 3, 2008 11:24 AM
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So think about it, it's not about impressing your neighbor it's more to do with safe guarding your hard earned money. I know when I gave up smoking 30 years back, I have since saved a raft of money and my health improved. Likewise get rid of the gas guzzler, use your bike or the above mentioned car and you will achieve real benefits financially and in your health.
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» It'll take some time. Besides, doesn't rural Europe lack public transportation?
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: It'll take some time. Besides, doesn't rural Europe lack public transportation?
Posted by: jbloggz
» RE: It'll take some time. Besides, doesn't rural Europe lack public transportation?
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: It'll take some time. Besides, doesn't rural Europe lack public transportation?
Posted by: jbloggz
» RE: It'll take some time. Besides, doesn't rural Europe lack public transportation?
Posted by: jwverez
Comments are closed-
Posted by: zepher on Aug 3, 2008 11:35 AM
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Do we hear about fusion energy? Is anyone familiar with the status of research of it? Fusion vs. fission used to be a big topic before the 1990's. Clean energy from fusion. Think about it. Fission/nuclear power = cancer; fusion = clean, non-toxic waste if there is any at all. Anyone know out there?
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» If I remember correctly, fusion requires million degree heating to work.
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: opmoc on Aug 3, 2008 11:43 AM
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Amsterdam still has an enormous number of bicycles - and is one of the nicest places in the world with people who are just genuinely nice to each other
The model of the Amsterdam FREE bike system could easily be copied in cities all over the world.
The beauty of a bicycle should not be underestimated
If you drive a car you get really angry and irritable which does your blood pressure no good at all
But riding a bike means that you can get about a lot quicker than walking
It also exercises your muscles which is really good for your body such that it keeps you really healthy
So you look good and live a long time and can still have brilliant sex when you are in your 80's
Bikes are great
Governments should make them available for free - then we wouldn't need so many bikes
Cos most bikes are just sat rusting away doing nothing in a garden shed throughout most of their lives.
I love the Dutch
They are a really liberated people with a wonderful attitude about life
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» RE: In Amsterdam For a While They Had This FREE Bike System
Posted by: jbloggz
» But don't forget that most people aren't given a chance to work as close to their home.
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: But don't forget that most people aren't given a chance to work as close to their home.
Posted by: jbloggz
» RE: But don't forget that most people aren't given a chance to work as close to their home.
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: In Amsterdam For a While They Had This FREE Bike System
Posted by: richholland
» Portland, OR, tried free bikes.
Posted by: billwald
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Posted by: Artkansas on Aug 3, 2008 12:00 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No matter how you power them, creating the power contributes to global warming.
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» RE: CARS are a big part of the problem
Posted by: opmoc
» Denial is a long long river
Posted by: Artkansas
» But don't forget that most people aren't given a chance to work as close to their home.
Posted by: jwverez
» Bad social planning and bad personal choices
Posted by: Artkansas
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Posted by: adempatriot on Aug 3, 2008 12:09 PM
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Posted by: robbie.seal on Aug 3, 2008 3:02 PM
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Now we just have to get technology to catch up and produce AFFORDABLE products. I would happily buy a hybrid (for long distance travel) or an EV (for everyday travel), but right now I can't stomach the cost and there is the problem with the batteries. We gotta keep trying. The progress will continue now that the need is slapping up in the face at $4 a gallon.
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Posted by: Jeanne on Aug 3, 2008 5:04 PM
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Posted by: SevenStarHand on Aug 3, 2008 5:52 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Want to grasp the true "stake in the heart" of the big oil bloodsuckers?
Water and Solar to Hydrogen and Oxygen
Water Fuel Cells
It is much easier and much more efficient now to simply split water into hydrogen and oxygen and then recombine them, repeatedly! The old story about it taking too much energy to get hydrogen from water is hogwash. Furthermore, those excuses ignore the fact that a well-designed engine that captures both pure hydrogen and pure oxygen and burns them in a closed chamber is far more energetic than just burning hydrogen in the relatively low oxygen atmosphere. This is the key to success.
The problem has been, BIG OIL, once again. Once this cat is out of the bag, any oil source as fuel is dead and gone, including biofuel. Water is abundant and if one captures the exhaust, which is water, you are recycling fuel. Get it?
If it can put rockets into space, it can run a well-designed engine, which can then be used for onsite electric generators, internal combustion engines, etc., etc. Likewise, if we can go the Moon, Mars, the outer planets, etc., we could put the same effort towards this and end our energy dependence on corporations and their monopolies.
The bottom line is that the knowledge and technologies to kill Big Oil already exist and are simply waiting for widespread recognition, acceptance, and fine-tuning. Also, it's not rocket science and it's much easier to implement than we have been told. This is also part of their big fear. Since people are desperate for change now, every inventor and tinkerer worth their salt will be able to implement this, if the knowledge is freely available
The lying dogs are being exposed daily. The only reason we haven't moved to water as fuel is their inability to monopolize the profits. Let's take our world away from these greedy assholes and end the dependence on all oil sources and corporations.
Here is Wisdom !!
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» RE: Don't let them hide the truth about water as fuel
Posted by: Livemike
» I suppose OIL+pollution+myriad negatives is a better solution...
Posted by: SevenStarHand
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Charley2u on Aug 3, 2008 5:51 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Utah and Colorado are moving to a 4 days work week for public employees to reduce costs. If we all did, we could reduce costs and cut fuel consumption.
http://pogoprinciple.wordpress.com/
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» No thank you. I like my 40. I have a better idea.
Posted by: jwverez
» And an 8 hour cut in pay?
Posted by: billwald
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Posted by: Livemike on Aug 3, 2008 8:37 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As for "Who killed the electric car?" well it died of lack of interest. The reason the legistlation was weakened was that nobody wanted to buy what the politicians wanted them to buy. That is the sole reason that GM and other manufacturers sought leave from their masters not to make any. Of course the idea that the legislation was only introduced so that auto makers would bribe politicians to repeal it is just a conspiracy theory. Move along nothing to see here.
From mistakes we go to simple lies when the author claims "This is the reason Enron and others were able to manipulate the system in deregulated California 10 years ago, a manipulation that led to the near bankruptcy of the state and continues to burden the state budget.". For a start the system was not deregulated as any glance at the stories about said system will tell you. What sort of "deregulation" is it that bans long term contracts and forbids you to pay the price you agreed on with the seller, instead insisting you pay the _highest_ price on the day? The reason Enron and others could manipulate the system was because it was designed to be manipulated for corrupt purposes. It has nothing to do with the nature of electricity generation, transmission and sale which resisted manipulation in genuinely deregulated markets for decades.
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Posted by: Livemike on Aug 3, 2008 8:37 PM
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As for "Who killed the electric car?" well it died of lack of interest. The reason the legistlation was weakened was that nobody wanted to buy what the politicians wanted them to buy. That is the sole reason that GM and other manufacturers sought leave from their masters not to make any. Of course the idea that the legislation was only introduced so that auto makers would bribe politicians to repeal it is just a conspiracy theory. Move along nothing to see here.
From mistakes we go to simple lies when the author claims "This is the reason Enron and others were able to manipulate the system in deregulated California 10 years ago, a manipulation that led to the near bankruptcy of the state and continues to burden the state budget.". For a start the system was not deregulated as any glance at the stories about said system will tell you. What sort of "deregulation" is it that bans long term contracts and forbids you to pay the price you agreed on with the seller, instead insisting you pay the _highest_ price on the day? The reason Enron and others could manipulate the system was because it was designed to be manipulated for corrupt purposes. It has nothing to do with the nature of electricity generation, transmission and sale which resisted manipulation in genuinely deregulated markets for decades.
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» national security problems
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: The mistakes start in the first paragraph.
Posted by: BlackbirdHighway
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Posted by: reelectnoone on Aug 4, 2008 7:26 AM
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Fuel Up at Home
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Posted by: Maccabees on Aug 4, 2008 8:36 AM
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I believe he missed the point regarding energy independence. Yes, if we had no oil we would still have electricity. But when we can no longer afford oil or have access to oil, our transportation dependent economy will stop.
Oil is the foundation of U.S. transportation. This is why electric vehicles are so critical.
American car companies are now scrambling; even oil companies have dropped prices in recent days. This "brotherhood of greed" (the U.S. car manufacturers and oil companies) is now seeing the writing on the wall.
Electric transportation is coming and those that sailed on greed will sink in need.
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Posted by: AllenM on Aug 4, 2008 10:42 AM
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I have tried to engage Toyota to secure a Plug In Hybrid conversion for my hybrid and they act like they don't know what I'm talking about or state that the technology is not yet available! Can you read BULLSHIT here? If they are available in California why can't we in Oregon have access to these units? Why is our American auto industry degraded to junk bond status when I could sell more electric vehicles than they could make!? Do you know anyone who enjoys putting their food and healthcare money in their gas tank?
Pissed in Oregon
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Posted by: guevara on Aug 4, 2008 2:50 PM
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Go to this MIT website: (http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html) and feel genuine hope for the first time.
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» Opmoc will be terribly disappointed.
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: whs806 on Aug 5, 2008 5:20 AM
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Less Government, liberal media, and NIMBY's (not in my back yard)
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Posted by: miz on Aug 5, 2008 2:06 PM
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Posted by: uncleeddie on Aug 5, 2008 2:47 PM
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» RE: dumb
Posted by: halg
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Posted by: prinpronisse on Aug 5, 2008 2:55 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: matacme on Aug 14, 2008 11:23 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Anon90 on Aug 28, 2008 11:58 AM
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Posted by: mmckinl on Aug 2, 2008 12:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First because we are facing Peak Oil. Crude Oil will only get geometrically more expensive as the world begins depletion and supplies stagnate then relentlessly shrink even as world demand accelerates. Our economy will crash with ever higher prices for fuel.
Second because it is the only way to salvage our suburbs. EVs are cheaper to produce, to maintain and to fuel allowing suburbanites affordability that will keep them in place and rescue what would become great ghettos and vast abandoned housing tracts. We don't have the room in our cities for everyone to move back in. Eventually, over time much more environmentally efficient housing will happen but we can't do it all at once.
Third because it will reduce pollution dramatically. Even electricity from coal is cleaner than burning gas and diesel.
Fourth for national security. We are now dependent on unstable countries and long supply lines to get 60% of our crude oil.
A great article everyone should read and get others to read. We must move to EVs.
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» RE: Outstanding Article ... EVs Are Our Only Hope ...
Posted by: richholland
» Correct, EVs Are Our Only Hope ...
Posted by: jlohman
» RE: Outstanding Article ... EVs Are Our Only Hope ...
Posted by: sheena2u
» Outstanding Comment, Sheena!
Posted by: Spyder
» RE: Outstanding Article ... EVs Are Our Only Hope ...
Posted by: ATH
» RE: Outstanding Article ... EVs Are Our Only Hope ...
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» RE: Outstanding Article ... EVs Are Our Only Hope ...
Posted by: mmckinl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmckinl on Aug 2, 2008 1:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is the battery electric car is cheaper to buy (-50%), cheaper to maintain (-90%) and cheaper to fuel (-60%). And there is the problem, fewer parts and less asssembly means lots fewer workers to tax, far less profit from parts suppliers and carmakers to tax. Then there are the gas and sales taxes, Federal , State and local that would evaporate. Banks and car companies would lose all that loan interest from cheaper models. Gas Stations would disappear. Car repair work, smog certificates and tire shops would all be cut way back. Car Insurance would have to go down as prices went down along with speed limits causing fewer accidents and fewer injuries. Where's the money for the roads to come from?
The internal combustion engine is a tax revenue machine.
Where do you go to raise the tax money to suport the War Machine, the Homeland Security Honeypot and the Healthcare Hegemoney? Who does that leave to tax? Them that has the Money!
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» RE: And the Bad News ... The Internal Combustion Engine will be saved at any cost ...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» RE: And the Bad News ... The Internal Combustion Engine will be saved at any cost ...
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» RE: And the Bad News ... The Internal Combustion Engine will be saved at any cost ...
Posted by: lenteach
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» RE: Yes, let's save the cars ... And the Economy?
Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: And the Bad News ... The Internal Combustion Engine will be saved at any cost ...
Posted by: Livemike
» RE: And the Bad News ... The Internal Combustion Engine will be saved at any cost ...
Posted by: tarnishedreality
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Posted by: jhecht on Aug 2, 2008 2:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"We could further increase the value and efficiency of a Unified National Grid by helping our struggling auto giants switch to the manufacture of plug-in electric cars. An electric vehicle fleet would sharply reduce the cost of driving a car, reduce pollution, and increase the flexibility of our electricity grid."
Why didn't the author point this out?
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» The manufacturers already know ....
Posted by: jlohman
» switch to plug in cars would overload the grid
Posted by: billwald
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Posted by: Rod on Aug 2, 2008 4:21 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Batteries wear out. Lithium has a high density and a short to medium life. Lead acid has a short life, and NiCd and NMh are low density medium cost, all wear out and cost to replace.
Windgenerators need maintained, they get hit by lighting, bearings fail, the blades need cleaned, on a tower this is not cheap.
It is unfair and unrealistic to describe the nirvana of EV without a frank discussion of the dark side, and these problems may never be solved, just improved.
Most of us have families that are spread out and we do place a high degree of importance on seeing them, long distance travel by EV is not really possible, and even IF batteries are unproved 10 times it will not compete with internal combustion in range, time, and cost until gas is a lot more expensive than now.
We will have EV's. they will be far from perfect
Rod
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» RE: The rest of the story
Posted by: jhecht
» Flawed Logic
Posted by: jeffreyd00
» RE: The rest of the story
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: The rest of the story - rational comment
Posted by: CalKid
» RE: The rest of the story
Posted by: wthwaites
» RE: The rest of the story
Posted by: lenteach
» RE: Solar cells don't "wear out"
Posted by: DanoM
» RE: The rest of the story
Posted by: ranger1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Aug 2, 2008 4:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When we were grabbe by the balls in the '70's by OPEC Americans Screamed for Change.
Innovators began building possible solutions in their garages- eelctric car is about 20 yrs old!
the Auto industry only scaled down once the Japanese car sales started kicking their ass.
so thanks to the deals the western Oil Coprs made with the oppressive Oil Royals of the M.E.- Prices went down, and they auto industry responded in kind by re introducing SUV's with illegitmate marketing tactics- Selling 'Elitism', a symbol of Rank, Social Status - they targeted Egos.
This tactic is NO diffeent and just as deadly as the Tabacco Companies lies and Deception.
Americans not only wanted US out of ,and off M.E, Oil for economic reasons - we wanted out because our citizens had been held Hostage for over a year, planes were being Highjacked, bodies being thrown on to tarrmacks....We KNEW then that to continue to do business in the M.E. would cause far more National Security Issues. anyone alive then - or having read history regarding- Was NOT Surprised by 9/11- In fact saw it for what it was- the Result of decades of Corps flirting with a national disaster- Economically and Security.
who did not realize the Lies Bush spewd "No one expected such attacks'- BS! they had been highjacking planes since the '70's, they hit the WTC in '93,Our Gov't had previous contact with Binny in the '80's- when our Gov't aided his band of fighter against the Russians! Who didn't think We would also be seen as 'conquering Powers' becasue of th enumerous US Flags flying around Oil Fields & refineries!
Who hasn't figured out 9/11 was NOT an attack on Americans- but an Attack on the entity which has used US as camoflague/Human shields....The MIC!! More Accurately the Military/ Oil complex, which has been allowing Saudi Arabia to Breed and instill anti US Sentiment- Afghanistan was just the 'Off to College' country. And why would the Royals want to encourage such hatred of US - because it deflected the blame for the Human condition in their region away From THEM!
so now we not only have Treason charges these Oil/Auto industry execs should face, but also War crimes and Crimes against Humanity. They are th ecause for All deaths in not only these 2 wars - but th enumerous they have been involved with throughout the world- in a quest for the Modern worlds black "gold". The actions which have caused this speculated commodity to skyrocket has lead to food shortages and faimine.
So when Indictments for High Crimes are finaly being issued- we Must not forget those in the Oil AND Auto industry who have spent 30 yrs leading US not only to 9/11, but to todays economic Fall Out!
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» RE: Indict Oil & auto industry Execs for Treason
Posted by: Livemike
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wellaware lec on Aug 2, 2008 5:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go to HYBRIDFEST website and you can tap into all sorts of great info. Also, cleanmpg.com superb website for info on many levels re. this topic. I now have been driving a hybrid for several years and feel great about that. Where I live, Madison, we have the most hybrids/Priuses/capita in nation, so I see hybrids everywhere I drive in this town. Fascinatingly, once I leave city limits, they immediately become very unusual to view. Prius easiest to identify because of shape.
NEV's now approved in Madison and several other cities. Lots of variety in styles/options; one company producing these in Reedsburg, WI. and the dealer is in Stoughton, WI. Go for a test ride! NEV's can go on roads 35 mph or less. Completely electric.
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Posted by: HughScott on Aug 2, 2008 5:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Of course electric cars will work!
Posted by: richholland
» Excellent point, Rich.
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Of course electric cars will work!
Posted by: sheena2u
» Sheena, please post your excellent comment on the thread so other AlterNetters will also benefit!
Posted by: HughScott
» Even better golf carts
Posted by: PaulK
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Aug 2, 2008 5:32 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They were in office at the time and not a whimper came from them as GM removed and DESTROYED all the EV1s that people were fighting to buy.
All were leased at the time and GM would not allow them to be bought. (See the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car")
Why does not Gore, even NOW, ask GM to bring IT back? Not the pie in the sky Chevy volt which is estimated to cost 50K.
Gore and Clinton are pseudo heroes, who fiddled while Amerikkka started to self destruction under the helpful eye of corporate Amerikkka.
There is NO leadership in this country and based on the two bozos who are running, there is none in sight either.
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» RE: Where was Gore...
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: Where was Gore...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» RE: Where was Gore...
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: Where was Gore...
Posted by: cmaciain
» Yes, let's save the cars.
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» RE: Where was Gore...
Posted by: BlackbirdHighway
» RE: I guess we could argue about time lines...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ATH on Aug 2, 2008 5:42 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately, it's probably not going to happen because most humans are easily fooled by the sold-out, corporate controlled media, and oil companies have so much control over our politicians.
What's going to happen is, our economy is going to completely collapse very soon, because we've waited far too long and done too little too late--actually, we really haven't done anything at all, STILL! We saw this problem coming back in the 1970s when oil production peaked in the U.S.
If we'd started then, we could have done it. Do you realize how long it will take to transform our infrastructure? And they will never allow us to make and control our own energy. No way.
We've been takin' it up the yoo yoo for a long time; unfortunately, we've been more concerned with Michael Jackson & Britney Spears and who she's currently banging, and a bunch of other banal subjects, that we haven't paid attention to what has been going on.
This country lost its freedom back in 1913 when the bankers tricked and bribed Congress into passing the Federal Reserve Act--giving the power of issuing our currency to a private corporation run by the greediest, most immoral men to ever disgrace the face of this planet..at least until W and Cheney came along.
We let them get away with assassinating JFK, Martin Luther King, Jr., beating in the heads of college students for protesting...Most humans are just plain stupid, unfortunately. The only way we could take back this country is if all 330 million of us stood up and demanded accuntability and truth.
The founders believed we should have a revolution every 20 years. Well, maybe that was a little radical, but not much. Now, there's no way to stand up to the kind of weapons they have unless, as I said, ALL of us stood up, and that's not going to happen because most people are still spending the majority of their time sucking on what Harlan Ellison called "The Glass Teat" in his book of the same name--TV! The most mind-numbing device ever created, and now that they control the media--who were once trustworthy--they control the minds of most Americans..or what little minds they have.
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» David Model
Posted by: david.model@senecac.on.ca
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lclark on Aug 2, 2008 5:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An overall plan would include :
-an electrical based transport system by rail for goods to be moved around the country, with EV trucks for local transport of goods. That national system could also include convenient ways of moving personal vehicles over long distances when traveling.
- improving the rail system (electrical based) so that rail travel was as convenient as plane travel.
-replacement of local public transportation with EV vehicles.
-the augmenting and gradual replacement of electical generating facilities with renewable methods so that electricity was both abundant and cheap. Some may argue that the maintenance of wind turbines are labor intensive and expensive compared to central power generating facilities, but that has to be compared to exporting those dollars to buy oil versus generating jobs and opportunities...manual, manufacuring, and engineering/technical joba at home. ( As a bogus solution you see the phony two-parties offering nuclear as a solution, even though nuclear fuel is itself a limited and controlled fuel source and the disposal of nuclear waste remains and unresolved serious problem.)
- yes, the wind and sun are 'intermittent', but the problems with these have a number of known solutions and the overall availability of ample and even flow of electricity throughout the nation is primarily dependent on improving the grid so electricity can be efficiently transported form places where it is being generated to where it is needed.
- as an aside, wind turbines should also be placed on family farms to augment their income to allow them to continue to produce food in a market that has become dominated by multinational corporations that have gained control of the purchase and distribution of food supplies to store chains. Abundant and cheap electricity would also provide incentives for farmers to mechanize more of the labor associated with farming.
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» RE: A fully electric car
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: A fully electric car - not new
Posted by: CalKid
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: shortpantz on Aug 2, 2008 5:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is not one good excuse for not moving to electric vehicles as soon as is humanly possible. We need to push hard on manufacturers and legislators to look at where we are and make these changes right now.
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» RE: So How Obvious Is This?
Posted by: Namaimo
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Abe on Aug 2, 2008 6:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
goto
www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html
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» RE: Air Cars
Posted by: PaulK
» RE: Air Cars
Posted by: Squarehead
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sheena2u on Aug 2, 2008 6:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Existing railways need to be optimized, and more tracks and stations need to be built. More ride sharing and public transportation needs to be available, and more electric vehicles need to be available to the public. More bicycle paths, too, need to be made available to the public.
We are essentially out of oil. We may need oil for plastics and other necessities in the future, and we cannot be so visionless and clueless by talking about further drilling for oil, or further jumping to the tune of the oil companies every time they throw around their considerable weight, and say jump.
We can't use fossil fuels any more. Floods, drought, earthquakes, hurricanes of unusual force and frequency are with us now, just as had been predicted. No matter how unified or smart we think we can be, there is a point where there will be nothing we can do to save ourselves. We may still have time, but we are playing Russian Roulette with the future of humanity for every day we delay meaningful action.
Not just Vice President Al Gore, but Senator Barack Obama, and every leader in the world has to know this, and must move now. I believe Senator Obama has the good sense, and vision, to understand the problems we face, and the will to move and challenge Americans to make the changes necessary to save our world from total catastrophe and destruction.
In the 21st century the old attitudes toward oil, coal, gas, and nuclear power must be new, and we must change to honestly clean renewable power such as solar, tidal, geothermal, small hydro, wind, and biomass. We must change to electric cars, and widespread, viable public transportation with trains and electric vehicles. We have no more time to waste, to wait, or to lag behind.
There must be a way to end the chokehold the oil companies have on America. The oil companies can diversify and invest in honestly clean renewable energy, and do their part for life on the planet, and still prosper.
The EV was taken off the roads some ten years ago for suspicous reasons, and under suspicious circumstances. See the documentary, "Who Killed the Electric Car," for confirmation that we have had viable EV technology since at least the 90s. However, some of our very first vehicles were electric, so we have, of course, had it for much longer than that. It is time to bring the EV back, and we must do it now, not soon, but now.
The party is over. The jig is up. The tipping point has passed. We have to be sane, and move to clean technology like clean renewable energy and EVs, and shun excuses and demand better than more delays or lies such as clean, safe nuclear and "clean coal." We need EVs on the roads, and for public transportation. We are out of oil for transportation, and we need to conserve it for other uses. The airline companies, too, will have to undergo a major shift rather than the desperate bandaid measures they have been scrambling to put in place for the last several years.
Of all the candidates, Senator Obama seems to be the best bet for any hope of vision and progess in these important areas in the next few years. We do all have to work together, and we do not have an unlimited number of years to ponder what to do. We have a good enough understanding already that we cannot use fossil fuels in the same manner as in the 20th century, and that major, dramatic shifts in energy use and modes of transportation, among other conservation methods will be required of us from now on.
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» Thanks for reposting your excellent comment.
Posted by: HughScott
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ATH on Aug 2, 2008 6:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But the story was buried because people started realizing, by asking questions, that to rig a building of that size for wireless demolition usually takes a week, and no amount of rushing could have pulled it off on that day--which means, if it was demolished, it was set at least two or three days prior to 9/11.
A steel-framed building has never collapsed from fire alone--ever. The 9/11 Commission report doesn't even mention WTC 7, and NIST said, in their report, that their best hypothesis for collapse--fire--was very unlikely.
What about the over two million dollars from "put options" placed on United and American airlines that still remains unclaimed? Privacy rules protect any reporter from finding out who placed those bets, but Congress could subpeona the information.
Why was the steel from the buildings, in violation of Federal law concerning disturbing a crime scene (which Guiliani, being a former prosecutor, knew damn well was wrong), and which could have helped determine why two buildings that were designed to withstand multiple impacts from jumbo jets (and they weren't that much smaller when the building was designed, and actually had a faster rate of flight, giving them an equal or greater impact potential)collapsed at near free-fall speed directly down into their footprints, hauled all the way to China and melted down? Steel is expensive..why give it to China?
Why and how did Hani Hanjour, the supposed pilot of the plane that supposedly hit the Pentagon, whose pilot instructors said could barely fly a single engine Cessana, make an elaborate and totally unneccesary turn when he could have just flown straight in and hit the Pentagon? And why aim for the very narrow side, instead of diving into the very big target of the top, which would have caused more damage? Instead, he makes several manuevers that professional pilots say would be difficult for even the most seasoned pilot, to fly at 500 MPH just yards above the ground, and hit such a small target with pinpoint accuracy? Do you know the kind of skill that would require, to guide such a huge craft, at that speed, where the building would be approching incredibly rapidly, but manages to not even scrape the lawn?
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» RE: ATH [PLEASE, stop focusing on hypotheses
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: ATH
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ATH on Aug 2, 2008 6:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And then, professional pilots, after examining the data from the black boxes, have said there's no way that plane, on the trajectory recorded on the black box, severed those light poles...
What caused the pols of molten steel in the basements of all 3 WTC buildings, when everyone aknowledges the fires were not hot enough to melt steel, let alone hot enough to not only melt it, but keep it in that liquified form, for days(at least one day, but I think it was more like 2 or 3) after the event? What about the Israelis who recieved a warning through an email to evacuate the building, and broke their lease to get out? Why were all the warnings ignored, and then when it happened, they told everyone in the other tower to just stay put, instead of evacuating them?
The whole thing stinks to high heaven. It's also been proven that many of the phone calls that were made, did not come from those planes. For instance, United 93 (I think that's the right plane), it turns out, didn't even have plane phones, and all the cell phone calls were made when the plane(s) were well below 30,000 feet. The government possesses voice-morphing technology so sophisticated that I could call you, using this technology, and you would not be able to tell it was me and not your mother, or whomever I wanted to be. Besides, who calls their mother and uses their last name? Like, "Hi, mom, this is John Doe, your son. You believe me, don't you?" was one of the calls that were supposedly made.
I knew the day it happened, when there was no military response in over two hours, that this was somehow allowed or assisted to make happen. The other explanation, that there was massive failure and incompetence on every level of the system..well, it's like a 50 million to one chance.
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» RE: ATH
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 2, 2008 6:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
P.S.: What about the winter? I'm not so sure electric cars can handle the colder days. Anyone from the upper north want to fill me in on this one?
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» RE: Ok? But aren't we gonna need a hell of a lot of coal and nuclear to meet the guzzler's demands?
Posted by: sheena2u
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: wjfaust on Aug 2, 2008 7:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Leave automobility behind
Posted by: sheena2u
» To an extent - but not necessarily for everyone, right away, completely...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: To an extent - but not necessarily for everyone, right away, completely...
Posted by: Squarehead
» I'm not a physicist, but apparently travel times for zeppelins weren't all that bad, either..
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I'm not a physicist, but apparently travel times for zeppelins weren't all that bad, either..
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Leave automobility behind
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
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Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals on Aug 2, 2008 7:23 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Semi Trucks, Pick up's, Farm vehicles, Dump Trucks, Plow Trucks
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: Semi Trucks, Pick up's, Farm vehicles, Dump Trucks, Plow Trucks
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» PickUps
Posted by: gellero1
» RE:I cut my own grass...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ATH on Aug 2, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I did see "Who killed the Electric Car" and those cars were fast, quiet, and could be plugged into a regular socket, with an adaptor, if I remember correctly.People loved them. Yeah, at the time, they could only go 60 miles on a single charge, but that would meet most people's everyday driving needs; and then, if you needed it, the gas could kick it, but at a 100 M.T.A.G. you could go very far on very little.
Yet these cars, bright and shiny, were taken and destroyed, except for one or two that went to museums. Why do you suppose that was?
They can solve all these problems, and all the arguments against doing it are bull--the oil companies just don't want to give up their record profits. Exxon Mobile made the largest profit ever made in history in its last fiscal quater. It just takes Congress to demand that they use a large amount of that money to design a vehicle that meets all the standards we need them to. It can be done, the people want it done, but as long as the oil companies continue to weild so much influence, it's not going to happen. It's not an engineering problem, it's a political problem. And now, a time problem, and a money problem. We could have all kinds of things, like Universal Healthcare, if it wasn't for the oil companies driving foreign policy to cause us to wage illegal wars fought with the blood of our brave soldiers for reasons they've been lied to about. It's always been about oil, and 9/11 is the excuse for perpetual war, which is why it's so important to expose that lie.
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» Yes, lets save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: williameon on Aug 2, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Way to go Americo.
KICK the Habit!
Kick the Oil Pushers out of Government.
Conservation,
Raise MPG standards
Increase Efficiency
Invest in GREEN energy solutions,
Across the board.
Trillions for War and nothing for U.S.
Sounds fishy to me!
Cut out the Corpirate Middle Man.
End the Fossil Fuel Age now.
Nationalize all energy reserves and resources
for National Security Reasons.
Do you believe that Big Oil has your best interests at heart?
GREED is the bottom lie, it's their motivating factor.
GREED is a negative human trait.
It works great for the RICH and very badly for U.S.
We are the victims!
We pay for it.
While they get hundreds of billions in Corporate welfare, billion dollar bailouts and 500 million dollar Golden parachutes.
We get the shaft!
You pay,
Every time you pump.
WAR TAX!
Stop the war and gas will drop by 50%!
The same Corpirates that overthrew our Government,
Control the Media and
Censor the News,
Spy, Lie, Torture and Terrorize us.
Who is getting Fu-ked? and Why?
What are we going to do about it?
How long can you sit and take it?
After Loosing our jobs, homes, savings and Social Security?
What's left?
While Dead Eye Laughs and the Monkey dances?
75% of The Government and Military have been privatized.
Including the clandestine services.
Just check the list of who they were Spying on in 2004 in New York.
Ben who?
No!
Me and you.
They're is no separation of power,
When the same Corpirate Mercenaries run all branches of Government, Media and Industry there is no freedom.
It is Anarchy.
Monolithic Corporate Totalitarianism.
Beware
The Military, Media, Banking,
Industrial Complex!
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Posted by: popsicle67 on Aug 2, 2008 7:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
until all of the people who get rich from oil figure out how to make the same money from electricity.
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» RE: We'll never get that independence
Posted by: KeithRichardRadfordJr
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Posted by: opmoc on Aug 2, 2008 8:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To convert from petroleum to electric vehicles would require at least a doubling of the current electricity supply. That means twice as many powerstations and greatly beefed up distribution network.
Whilst this is possible, the idea that all this extra energy can come from solar is physically impossible due to the limitations of the sun's energy.
There are also major environmental and efficiency problems with batteries. Batteries can only be charged about 500 times and require enormous amounts of energy to produce and are made from exceedingly toxic heavy metals.
Electric vehicles can work well though - particularly in towns and cities where they are driven via a directly connected current, that doesn't require batteries.
It would be far more sensible if these vehicles were publicly owned and shared - like buses and trains - but with far greater availability and desirability - such that travelling in them was a significantly better experience than being in a private car.
There is a great deal of mis-information about all kinds of alternative transport due to the massive research funding involved. The better the story the more funds that are likely to be forthcoming
Without massively increased electricity power generation which can probably only come from nuclear on a long term basis, the replacement of millions of petrol vehicles with electric ones simply cannot work.
Why there won't be a solar powered car
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» RE: The Problem with Solar Power And Electric Vehicles
Posted by: chrysalis124812
» I think the idea is to feed solar- and wind-generated power into the electricity grid...
Posted by: mjabele
» The problem is that Solar Power can Only Provide a Tiny Fraction Of Current Energy Use
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: The problem is that Solar Power can Only Provide a Tiny Fraction Of Current Energy Use
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: The problem is that Solar Power can Only Provide a Tiny Fraction Of Current Energy Use
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: The problem is that Solar Power can Only Provide a Tiny Fraction Of Current Energy Use
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: The problem is that Solar Power can Only Provide a Tiny Fraction Of Current Energy Use
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The Problem with Solar Power And Electric Vehicles
Posted by: sheena2u
» I live about 12 miles from the Centre of London I haven't driven a Car into London For Over 15 Years
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: The Problem with Solar Power And Electric Vehicles
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: The Problem with Solar Power And Electric Vehicles
Posted by: opmoc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tim Chadron on Aug 2, 2008 8:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Politicians are always talking about how they will create jobs. Well, seems to me that if they jumped all over this alternative energy gig, they would actually be able to truthfully say that in supporting such initiatives, they would actually be creating 1000's of jobs. Good jobs. High paying jobs. Jobs that created something useful for all of society. Indeed, for all of the world.
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» RE: Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Tim Chadron
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ujerdr on Aug 2, 2008 8:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Logic in following paragraph is faulty.
"Oil generates only 3 percent of our electricity. Therefore a 100 percent renewable electricity system does little to reduce our oil dependency..."
Logically, even if oil generates only 3 percent of our electricity, that could take all of our oil.
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Posted by: practical idealist on Aug 2, 2008 8:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The End Point And The End Game
Prologue:
With the rise of communist China, the advent of peak oil, and an unresolved economic crisis in the United States, it’s not hard to see that history is at turning point. Peak oil and a foundering economy are threatening challenges. But how should we perceive China? First of all we need to get rid of the communist label. Communism is the end state of historical materialism. The inexorable push of economic determinism that ultimately leads to the collapse of capitalism and then finally to communism—a worker’s utopia.
So better said, China is a nation ruled by Marxists whose mission, towards this end, is to overthrow the existing order by beating capitalism at our own game.
Still, for us, history is determined by our free will as we put forward the ideas to meet the challenges that a changing world presents. Yet up to this point we seem to be at loss. And neither Obama nor McCain, as they seek the White House, has presented a clear strategy either for economic recovery or ideological victory. And while we embrace democracy and free markets, ideas that Marxists see as a meaningless reflection of capitalism—brave words in the face of their ultimate demise, they too need an update.
So, given the gravity of these issues it’s best that we consider the worst-case Marxist scenario and then consider the practical idealism that can resolve these challenges.
For full text go to: http://theendpoint.blogspot.com/
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Posted by: PaulK on Aug 2, 2008 8:26 AM
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The second EV company is Nissan. They are preparing to flood the Los Angeles market with semi-affordable electrics in 2010.
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» RE: Two EV car companies
Posted by: clvngodess
» RE: Two EV car companies
Posted by: sheena2u
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
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Posted by: lenteach on Aug 2, 2008 8:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
so nothing works well and we live with it anyway.wait for a bus and see how that feels.ride with strangers standing up,with shoving and pushing,yelling and music,cell phone talk and wet clothes on rainy days.Like it? or take the train and pray you arrive in one piece.
oil is over and China and india are speeding it up.we have no options,just like the stable owners and carriage makers of the 1800's.what is done is done.you can keep looking and drilling but it will be gone in minutes and won't be back.Science will save us but we have to wait and make do.our lives will change but they do anyway.drunks miss their booze but do much better sober.we will too.
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» RE: the days of oil and roses are over
Posted by: sheena2u
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Posted by: paulmagillsmith on Aug 2, 2008 9:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For over a week I have watched the oil bribed Republicans in Congress thwart any efforts that would shift us substantially away from oil, and toward cheaper, sustainable, less geo-politically disruptive power sources. Their continued repetition of the 'drill, drill, drill' mantra is not only extremely deceptive, but flat out wrong. T. Boone Pickens even stated, "We can not drill our way out of this (crisis regarding oil)", and this from the lips of a billionaire oil man.
Sadly, amongst all this talk of electric vehicles, short shrift has been given to the power of air. I'm not talking about wind power, which we desparately need, but compressed air as a source of vehicle propulsion.
Other countries understand the potential of the 'air car', and India will release the first mass produced model next year (2009). France & Australia also have good working models, and will likely follow suit soon, too.
Google 'air car' for more info including videos of working models.
BTW, air can be compressed and stored in underground caverns (depleted oil wells?) by solar cells & wind power, to be used later to generate electricity at 'peak demand' times...and piped to air car service stations. The underground storage caverns are the same basically as huge batteries, meaning the negative comments about wind & solar being intermittent, and electricity going out on the grid must be used immediately, are stated from lack of information or imagination.
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» RE: "Only hope?" I think you are overlooking air power
Posted by: jstepp590
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: adempatriot
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Posted by: mtnprivy on Aug 2, 2008 9:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Gizmos and Gimmicks
Posted by: jstepp590
» RE: Gizmos and Gimmicks
Posted by: mgmyers79
» RE: Gizmos and Gimmicks
Posted by: mtnprivy
» RE: Gizmos and Gimmicks
Posted by: mtnprivy
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Aug 2, 2008 11:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
jdfu!
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Posted by: jstepp590 on Aug 2, 2008 11:17 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: whiterhino on Aug 2, 2008 12:15 PM
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» RE: No Cars Are the Key to Energy Independence
Posted by: ellie
» I drive a Prius, and it hasn't maxed out yet even above 80mph.....
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I also drive a Prius and it's the best car I have ever owned!
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
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Posted by: paulmagillsmith on Aug 2, 2008 12:44 PM
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I would also point out that teleworking has been measured & proven to increase production & job satisfaction.
Why isn't this being done on a national level?
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» RE: Tim Kaine, the progressive Governor of Virginia
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Voicedude on Aug 2, 2008 1:07 PM
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More on it here:
TESLA
To paraphrase the documentary, we already know who killed the electric car.
But maybe the car buying public can resurrect it!
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: mgmyers79 on Aug 2, 2008 2:12 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can no one see that it is dependence that is the problem here, not foreign countries? Electric cars are in the same paradigm as the system that brought us salmonella tomatoes, Exxon Valdez spill, and weak New Orleans levees. Decentralization is our only way out of this mess, and that happens to include transportation. Those expecting techno fix for our troubles are facing culture shock when:
their electric cars break down after a few years, the American dollar collapses, all those renewable electricity projects get canned for lack of funds and credit, and there are no parts/exhorbitant costs for parts and labor to fix the cars.
Centralization makes you reliant on the forces of centralization which are concerned only with accumulating your wealth/power, using it to further centralize society. Our dependence is not on foreign countries but on the elite in this country, and this elite is the enemy.
Decentralize: take control and accept responsibility for the harshness of life in the industrial system American leaders have been championing as our birthright since WWI. There are no easy way out, and the electric car is an easy way out.
Ask yourself, will the electric car be built for experts to work on, or will it be designed to be fixed without hi-tech equipment?
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» RE: The electric car is NOT a solution
Posted by: billwald
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Posted by: sunspot on Aug 2, 2008 2:49 PM
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: willymack on Aug 2, 2008 5:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: reinaldok on Aug 2, 2008 6:04 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 1910 oil production was really just getting into full swing and you can rest assured that the neo-cons of that era did everything possible to keep the electric cars locked far, far away. Just think how different the world would be with successful electric or non fossil fuel cars.
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» RE: 1910
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
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Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 2, 2008 8:57 PM
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» HEMP and Nano-Solar can fill in the electricity gaps.
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: HEMP and Nano-Solar can fill in the electricity gaps.
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: HEMP and Nano-Solar can fill in the electricity gaps.
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: radwriter on Aug 2, 2008 8:59 PM
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Coal is the the most abundant and the dirtiest form of electrical energy we have. Coal-fired power plants are the most common in more places than any other. Thanks to Bush's "Clear Skies Initiative", they have not become any cleaner in this century.
From an environmental point of view, all that plug-in electrics do (today in most of America) is trade one form of pollution (significantly reduced over the last 40 years) for another (not seriously reduced). You may feel righteous that your vehicle isn't generating the pollution, but the power plants that power your vehicle are belching dangerous pollutants into the air at a horrendous rate. In addition to carbon, they are spreading heavy metals that drop onto the soil and into the oceans to the point that we must limit the amount of many popular seafoods we eat because of the mercury in them.
The day will come when plug-ins will be a great vehicle, but that day won't come until the electrical grid is strengthened to handle the extra load and can move electricity more efficiently from one coast to another. The grid will have to be powered by far cleaner sources than at present. And electric vehicles will have to be rechargeable is less than 10 minutes; many of us have to drive more than 500 miles in a day from time to time. Most will not willingly wait at a truck stop for hours waiting for a "refill" (and at what cost -- not likely at our residential rates).
It is most likely that biofuels will be the preferred fuel for long distance travel while electricity will be preferred for commuter (including mass transit) and errand-running local travel.
The point is that we must begin doing all of this now. The era of petroleum-based energy is ending. It is long past time to find clean, sustainable and reliable domestic sources. If we look at the problem in a holistic fashion, the solutions are fairly obvious as is the urgency to achieve them. Let's get on with it.
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
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Posted by: hilly7 on Aug 2, 2008 9:33 PM
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If EVs are powered completely by solar, aside from the electrical current which may interfere, actually will, with our health, it is bad. There are more to consider than just air with electrical cars. Electrical fields are proven to cause sickness and disease. Electricity has frequencies, some heal, some disrupt. The occupants would need to be shielded from the fields. That only leaves the wildlife.
While oil isn't the ideal solution, certainly electricity isn't either. Type in "Mountain Top Removal", and check your results. After you read about where and how the coal is obtained, type in Mercury. Burning coal releases Mercury. Our bodies can't live with Mercury. Research Mercury related diseases.
Now we are down to Nucleur. Check out Russia's experience with oops. To get rid of that much delpeated Uranium we would need a few more wars, oh yea, forgot, this one will last 100 years. That is what the ammo we use is made from. Could that be what is making our men and women in uniform sick, as well as "the enemy"?
There are clean alternatives using the very vehicles we have on the road today. Joe Cell. There are motors that generate their own inertia driven energy, they were in use in the 70s, maybe earlier.
There is a BIG push to reduce Carbon Footprints, it's called death. Very profitable because on the reduction scale, Big Pharma and medical get their cut, because you will need care before you die. Big Coal companies and Nucleur companies get their cut. Wells Fargo and others get their cut financing. The world banks get what they want because they will lend what can not be paid back, so they get the collateral. In Brazil's deal, the world banks now own the Amazon River Basin. Population goes down and the older are weeded out, replaced by younger, dumber (if that is possible) people, able to buy more, work harder, and be even more decieved.
Like the CFL bulbs, there is a hook. I even fell for that one. It is Mercury. When the alternative is worse than the disease, are we winning? Now I really don't expect anybody to take my word on it, reseach it yourself. While you research, research something else, H.A.A.R.P. Could this be partly the reason behind droughts, famines, floods, heat, storms and more sickness? It is also proven.
We do need good alternatives and they have been around for many years. The next time someone gives you an alternative or agenda, ask youself, who benefits (follow the money).
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: CFLs - Truth
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
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Posted by: Urgelt on Aug 2, 2008 9:46 PM
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Here is a source which puts it at 13 years - which may even be a bit low:
http://www.safecarguide.com/gui/new/neworused.htm
My Dodge Caravan, with manual transmission and a 2.4-liter 4-banger, is 21 years old. It gets about 25 mpg on the highway.
Maybe that's just a quibble. Here's a somewhat more substantive difference of opinion.
The entire notion of using ton-and-a-half of steel and glass monsters for all of our personal travel is one which could arise only because energy was cheap. And boy, was it cheap. There was a lot of very easy-to-extract oil in the world, and it took a long time to extract most of it.
But easy-to-extract oil is going the way of the dodo. What's left is harder, and more expensive, to get out of the ground.
Then there's demand for oil, which is rising rapidly, mostly because of economic success in China and India and other third-world countries. They're modernizing, they've got money now, and they want ton-and-a-half steel and glass monsters to ride around in, too.
Rising oil influences the cost of electricity very directly. Coal depends heavily on petroleum-fueled equipment and transportation, for example. Right now electricity is cheaper per unit of energy than oil, but the cost of electricity is going up. It'll rise even more as our nation gears up for some very expensive investments in solar and wind, in additional electrical infrastructure, and in such oddities as two-way metering (letting you sell power to the electric company as well as buy it).
All of this should lead us to rethink our reliance on these big personal vehicles as our only transportation option - whether electrically-driven or not.
Now, I'm not anti-electric car. I'm all for 'em, which is why I characterized this post as "Begging to Differ - Slightly." But I think we shouldn't say things like "the electric car is the only solution." Actually, it isn't.
If you really want to reduce your transportation energy costs, think about a bicycle.
Ah, that's right, a bicycle can't carry enough stuff to be useful. Or if you did load it down with 150 lbs of groceries, it would be unstable, and you'd need to be an olympic athlete to get it to move.
If you think that, you're ignoring two new developments in bicycles.
The first is the longtail - basically a sturdy mountain bike that's been elongated, so there's room directly over the rear wheel to carry cargo. It rides like a normal bike, isn't much heavier, and it is stable and comfortable under loads of 200-440 lbs of cargo, depending on model.
You can use it to carry a passenger (or two children). You can use it to buy a microwave at Wal-Mart and haul it home. You can fill up a grocery cart to the brim, pay for it all, wheel it out to the parking lot and stuff it into the panniers (bags) on your bike, and pedal home. It's stable under a big load, unlike the bikes you're used to.
Slap an electric assist on that baby, and you can ride uphill with a heavy load at up to 20 mph without breaking a sweat - and get the equivalent of 400 mpg or better.
For your shorter trips and errands, a bike like this will let you leave your car parked. That's an energy savings regardless of whether your car is gas-powered, electric, or runs on a cage full of hopping frogs. (Hey, frogs have to eat.)
So let's not say that the electric car is "the only solution" to our transportaton woes. It isn't. The sooner we get the word out, the better for all of us.
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» For More Information
Posted by: Urgelt
» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Aug 3, 2008 6:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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» Yes, let's save the pretty cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: mnstra on Aug 3, 2008 7:04 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How much can we effect change and conservation now ?In the mean time we must reduce speed limits in our highways, mandate reduced use our A/C in skyscrapers etc. We can have the benefits now.of conservation.
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Posted by: jwverez on Aug 3, 2008 8:13 AM
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: jwverez on Aug 3, 2008 8:31 AM
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» Yes, let's save the cars
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» Quit complaining or get the fucker off this planet !
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: Cherenkovrad on Aug 3, 2008 10:33 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Electricity must be made. It does not magically appear. Most of our electricity is made with coal, a non-renewable resource which will peak in 15 years, not to mention poisoning our planet to the point of our extinction. Nuclear energy is a sick, sadistic joke. Not only are we about to peak in uranium at current usage rates, precluding any ramp up to further folly, these plants will prove to be poisonous little enclaves for foreseeable human history. Natural gas is also peaking despite the various so-called shale plays which have yet to prove economic.
Tidal, geo and all the other secondary solar sources are unreliable and their knock on effects are unexplored. Many species in the ocean rely upon certain tides, currents, and other ocean movements to determine everything from food availability to mating habits.
No. EVs are just another nail in the coffin--a fancy really cool nail that seems kinda green, but a nail nonetheless.
Quit trying to save the cars and start trying to save the planet.
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» HEY, solar panels are getting improvements in development. Ever heard of NANOTECHNOLOGY?
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: HEY, solar panels are getting improvements in development. Ever heard of NANOTECHNOLOGY?
Posted by: Cherenkovrad
» RE: HEY, solar panels are getting improvements in development. Ever heard of NANOTECHNOLOGY?
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Yes, let's save the humans
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: Yes, let's save the cars.
Posted by: BlackbirdHighway
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Posted by: AnnaLeo on Aug 3, 2008 11:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We obviously need to develop wind, solar, biomass, etcetera. IN ADDITION, we need to look at what we WASTE every day and use it for energy --
1. REAL RECYCLING & RE-USE.
(a) Scoma’s Restaurant in San Francisco is a great example of what is possible if people just learn and care! They recycle or re-use 95% of their stuff and even their truck(s) run on “grease-diesel”. What incentives or challenges would encourage other restaurants to alter their mindsets and follow this example?
(b)75%+ of the stuff in landfills could be recycled or re-used, or converted to power.
2. WASTE MANAGEMENT Inc. does operate some biomass conversion plants associated with landfills, and sells power to local utilities – but this is small and not widespread, and is limited to incinerable materials.
3. PLASMA GASIFICATION. Our most reliable renewable resource is our endless waste-stream -- Municipal Solid Waste. Even the newer lined landfills start to leak and leach out in 25-30 years. A plasma converter “vaporizes” ALL types of waste, including medical and hazardous waste.
> Mine the landfills and keep on converting our waste stream to energy!
A plasma conversion plant should be built adjacent to every major landfill site – and when they convert the trash that has accumulated, they could continue to convert trash as we produce it.
> SMALL GRIDS ARE BETTER
With good planning, these facilities could serve smaller regional areas, removing people from the humungous power grids that are inefficient, destructive land use, and great terrorist-targets.
> WHY NOT IN THE U.S.?
For example,
A PLASCO ENERGY group demo-facility in Ottawa, Canada processes 85 tons of MSW per day. Who is doing this in the U.S.?
STARTECH has installed operational Plasma Converters in: Australia, China, Costa Rica, European Union, Japan, Panama, Poland, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, and the United Kingdom.
In addition, the U.S. Army is using Plasma Converters in some field locations.
> BUT WHAT ABOUT U.S. DOMESTIC USE OF PLASMA CONVERTERS? Puerto Rico has new facilities to process MSW (hard to dispose of endless trash on an island) and Rhode Island converts hazardous & toxic waste.
The U.S. has a tendency to try to avoid alternatives. In part, this attitude is fueled by the petroleum industry.
For further information, please visit http://www.startech.net. Especially look for their 10 top FAQs!
> PLEASE PASS IT ALONG . . .
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Posted by: jbloggz on Aug 3, 2008 11:24 AM
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So think about it, it's not about impressing your neighbor it's more to do with safe guarding your hard earned money. I know when I gave up smoking 30 years back, I have since saved a raft of money and my health improved. Likewise get rid of the gas guzzler, use your bike or the above mentioned car and you will achieve real benefits financially and in your health.
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» It'll take some time. Besides, doesn't rural Europe lack public transportation?
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: It'll take some time. Besides, doesn't rural Europe lack public transportation?
Posted by: jbloggz
» RE: It'll take some time. Besides, doesn't rural Europe lack public transportation?
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: It'll take some time. Besides, doesn't rural Europe lack public transportation?
Posted by: jbloggz
» RE: It'll take some time. Besides, doesn't rural Europe lack public transportation?
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: zepher on Aug 3, 2008 11:35 AM
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Do we hear about fusion energy? Is anyone familiar with the status of research of it? Fusion vs. fission used to be a big topic before the 1990's. Clean energy from fusion. Think about it. Fission/nuclear power = cancer; fusion = clean, non-toxic waste if there is any at all. Anyone know out there?
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» If I remember correctly, fusion requires million degree heating to work.
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: opmoc on Aug 3, 2008 11:43 AM
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Amsterdam still has an enormous number of bicycles - and is one of the nicest places in the world with people who are just genuinely nice to each other
The model of the Amsterdam FREE bike system could easily be copied in cities all over the world.
The beauty of a bicycle should not be underestimated
If you drive a car you get really angry and irritable which does your blood pressure no good at all
But riding a bike means that you can get about a lot quicker than walking
