COMMENTS: 137
Even the Government's Nuclear Agency Thinks an Atomic Renaissance Is a Bad Idea
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Delivered by one of America's most notoriously docile agencies, the NRC's warning essentially says: that all cost estimates for new nuclear reactors -- and all licensing and construction schedules -- are completely up for grabs, and have no reliable basis in fact. Thus any comparisons between future atomic reactors and renewable technologies are moot at best. And any "hard number" basis for independent financing for future nukes may not be available for years to come, if ever.
These key points have been raised in searing testimony before state regulators by Jim Warren of the North Carolina Waste and Awareness Reduction Network and Tom Clements of the South Carolina Friends of the Earth, and by others now challenging proposed state-based financing for new Westinghouse AP-1000 reactors. The NRC gave conditional "certification" to this "standardized" design in 2004, allowing design work to continue. But as recently as June 27, the NRC has issued written warnings that hundreds of key design components remain without official approval. Indeed, Westinghouse has been forced to actually withdraw numerous key designs, throwing the entire permitting process into chaos.
The catastrophic outcome of similar problems has already become tangible. After two years under construction, the first "new generation" French reactor being built in Finland is already more than two years behind schedule, and more than $2.5 billion over budget. The scenario is reminiscent of the economic disaster that hit scores of "first generation" reactors, which came in massively over budget and, in many cases, decades behind promised completion dates.
In North and South Carolina, public interest groups are demanding the revocation of some $230 million in pre-construction costs already approved by state regulators for two proposed Duke Energy reactors. In both those states, as well as in Florida, Alabama and Georgia, Westinghouse AP-1000 reactors have been presented to regulatory commissions to be financed by ratepayers as they are being built.
This astounding pro-utility scheme forces electric consumers to pay billions of dollars for nuclear plants that may never operate, and whose costs are indeterminate. Sometimes called Construction Work in Progress, it lets utilities raise rates to pay for site clearing, project planning, and down payments on large equipment and heavy reactor components, such as pressure vessels, pumps and generators, that can involve hundreds of millions of dollars, even before the projects get final federal approval. The process in essence gives utilities an incentive to drive up construction costs as much as they can. It allows them to force ratepayers to cover legal fees incurred by the utilities to defend themselves against lawsuits by those very ratepayers. And the public is stuck with the bill for whatever is spent, even if the reactor never opens -- or if it melts down before it recoups its construction costs, as did Pennsylvania's Three Mile Island Unit Two in 1979, which self-destructed after just three months of operation.
According to Warren and Clements, Duke Energy and its cohorts have "filed some 6,500 pages of Westinghouse's technical design documents as the major component of applications" to build new reactors. "Of the 172 interconnected Westinghouse documents," say NCWARN and FOE, "only 21 have been certified." And most of what has been certified, they add, rely on systems that are unapproved, and that are key to the guts of the reactor, including such major components as the "reactor building, control room, cooling system, engineering designs, plant-wide alarm systems, piping and conduit."
In other words, despite millions of dollars of high-priced hype, the "new generation" of "standardized design" power plants actually does not exist. The plans for these reactors have not been finalized by the builders themselves, nor have they been approved by the regulators. There is no operating prototype of a Westinghouse AP-1000 from which to draw actual data about how safely these plants might actually operate, what their environmental impact might be, or what they might cost to build or run.
In fact, as the NRC's June 27 letter notes, Westinghouse has been forced to withdraw key technical documents from the regulatory process. The NRC says this means design approval for the AP-1000 might not come until 2012.
The problem extends to other designs. According to Michael Mariotte of the Nuclear Information & Resource Service, the "Evolutionary Power Reactor" proposed for Calvert Cliffs, Maryland, "is way behind in certification" causing delays in the licensing process. Similar problems have arisen with the "Economic Simplified Boiling War Reactor" design proposed for North Anna, Virginia and Fermi, Michigan. "All of these utilities seem to want standardization for the other guy, not for themselves, so most of them are making changes to the 'standardized' designs, says Mariotte. "Even the ABWR," being planned for a site in south Texas, which has actually been built before, "has design issues" that have caused delays.
The problem, says Mariotte, "is that the NRC is still trying to go ahead and do licensing even with the designs not certified. This is going to lead to a big mess later on."
But in the meantime, Public Service Commissions like the one in Florida, have given preliminary approval to reactor proposals whose projected costs have more than doubled in just one year. Florida Power & Light's two proposed reactors at Turkey Point, on the border of the Everglades National Park, are listed as costing somewhere between $6 billion and $9 billion. FP&L refuses to commit to a firm price, and is demanding south Florida ratepayers foot an unknowable bill for gargantuan projects whose costs are virtually certain to skyrocket long before the NRC approves the actual reactor designs. By contrast, the "huge" preliminary deal just reached between Florida, environmentalists and U.S. Sugar to buy some 180,000 acres of land to save the Everglades is now estimated at less than $2 billion, less than one-sixth the minimum estimated cost of the two reactors proposed for Turkey Point.
In the larger picture, the depth of this scam is staggering. With no finalized design, and no firm price tag, a second generation of nuclear power plants is now being put on the tab of southeastern citizens whose rates have already begun to skyrocket. These reactor projects cannot get private financing, and cannot proceed without either massive federal subsidies and loan guarantees, or a flood of these state-based give-aways. They also cannot get private insurance against future melt-downs, and have no solution for their radioactive waste problem. Current estimates for finishing the proposed Yucca Mountain national waste repository, also yet to be licensed, are soaring toward $100 billion, even though it, too, may never open.
By contrast, firm costs for proposed wind farms, solar panels, increased efficiency and other green sources are proven and reliable. These projects are easily financed by private investors lining up to become involved. Some $6 billion in new wind farms are under construction or on order in the United States alone. They are established and profitable, and can in many cases can be up and running in less than a year.
The high-profile campaign to paint atomic energy as some kind of answer to America's energy problems has hit the iceberg of its economic impossibilities. The atomic "renaissance" has no tangible approved design, and no firm construction or operating costs to present. There are no reliable new reactor construction schedules, except to know that it will be at least ten years before the first one could conceivably come on line, and that its price tag is unknowable.
In short, the "nuclear renaissance" is perched atop a gigantic technical and economic chasm that looms larger every day, and that could soon swallow the entire idea of building more reactors.
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Posted by: Marlena on Jul 28, 2008 4:41 AM
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jul 28, 2008 5:15 AM
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So once again the taxpayer gets screwed on both ends. These "newer technologies" are not even proven. And they still haven't figured out what to do with the waste. Please, give us a break. We should have learned from 3-mile island - nuclear is not a game we can play with and figure out as we go along. Anyone care to live on 3 mile island now, I didn't think so. And why is it that these ponzi schemes are to be financed by the taxpayer? Because if they should ever function the taxpayer will not be reaping those profits!!
While everyone wants cheap energy - those days are really are over. What we need are: (1)to invest in reliable renewable resources (wind, solar, etc), (2)serious conservation, (3)investment in the U.S. infrastructure to include better intra-state & inter-state public commuting, (4)more research and development into other possible alternatives.
I'm not against nuclear - provided that it is done safe and reliably, and so far the industry hasn't proven anything other than the fact that they just want to make money! Let them spend their own money for initial development, that would ensure that they keep their costs under control and not those pie-in-the-sky, sock-it-to-the-taxpayer ponzi scams that we currently bankroll the oil companies with.
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» Rebuttal:
Posted by: abbadon2007
» Reality:
Posted by: PaulC
» Fire Up the Nukes and Stoke the Coal!
Posted by: edith
» Yelling? That is all you can do. You have no message beyond yelling for more of the same.
Posted by: PaulC
» Honestly, Paul.....
Posted by: mjabele
» I don't get - are you the fly? You keep buzzing around, but you don't SAY anything...n/m
Posted by: mjabele
» I get it, Troll Edith / Troll Mjabele tag teaming this thread -
Posted by: PaulC
» On the Efficiency & Safety of Nuclear Power
Posted by: bingahaba
» No kidding. The warmongering pols and price gouging industries don't want you to know their secrets.
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Here we go again.....
Posted by: john mont
» RE: NRC?
Posted by: sasquuatch55
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mjabele on Jul 28, 2008 5:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.spiegel.de/inter national/germany/0,1518,472786,00.html (remove the space between "inter" and "national" before pasting).
To me, at least, there's a deep irony here.
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» It is a political decision, and a bad one, but what is new?
Posted by: PaulC
» Another deep irony: In the US, there are coal plants that nuclear energy depends upon
Posted by: Beck
» Germany's extra coal-fired plants will annually release 150 million tons of CO2...
Posted by: mjabele
» Mjabele and Edith have managed to ignore the article and every post to repeat their little factoid
Posted by: PaulC
» So, what precisely do you propose as an alternative to the 150 million annual tons of CO2?
Posted by: mjabele
» It seems to be a "factoid" you have no coherent answer to...very revealing. n/m
Posted by: mjabele
» Revealing of its irrelevance, nothing more. n/m
Posted by: PaulC
» 150 million annual tons of CO2 is "irrelevant"...?!?
Posted by: mjabele
» No - just your "argument" - see my post further down. n/m
Posted by: PaulC
» 6 billion points of view
Posted by: edith
» The problem is that you ignore everyone you disagree with
Posted by: PaulC
» Everything's Coming Up Roses
Posted by: edith
» RE: 6 billion points of view
Posted by: mtnprivy
» RE: Germany decided to phase out nuclear in 2001...
Posted by: edith
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jwverez on Jul 28, 2008 7:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You're one of those consumers who think that "electricity comes from wall outlets"...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: You're one of those consumers who think that "electricity comes from wall outlets"...
Posted by: john mont
» RE: You're one of those consumers who think that "electricity comes from wall outlets"...
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: You're one of those consumers who think that "electricity comes from wall outlets"...
Posted by: Squarehead
» Coal and nuclear are not infinite. You'll have to conserve somewhere and cut the demand down.
Posted by: maxpayne
» This is pure misinformation and dishonesty
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: This is pure misinformation and dishonesty
Posted by: edith
» Wow! It is so exhilirating watching the infantile troll mind explode with useless drivel
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: You miss the point - you are blanketing this thread with troll garbage
Posted by: jwverez
» jwverez, I agree, but don't you see the difference in how you put it and how she did?
Posted by: PaulC
» No, I don't think it's disinformation. I think you're the one being dishonest...
Posted by: mjabele
» There is no energy gap - the lights are on right now!
Posted by: PaulC
» There will be a gap, and I'm far from the only person who realizes it...
Posted by: mjabele
» I already read that and I repeat myself for the umpteenth time
Posted by: PaulC
» Umm, I mixed up which troll I was responding to ...
Posted by: PaulC
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ciccio on Jul 28, 2008 1:50 PM
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The owners of these businesses are not in the least bit bothered about more and more jammed subways, their chauffeur looks after that problem.
The fact that the ever increasing demand for food has resulted in more foodlike substances bearing little relation to the real stuff is of no consequence, their cooks take care of it.
They are not crowded into ghettos, their children do not go to second rate schools and they have the finest health care money can buy, all thanks to unlimited growth. Their only concern with the energy problem is who to maximize the profit from it. I am an old man now, but I remember the dreams of my youth, all those advance in science, the labour saving technologies, the advances in health care should
have led to a far better life for all, those dreams have been swallowed by voracious greed and and thoughtless breeding far beyond the carrying capacity of the planet. In short, though we may have a bit more money now, the quality of life, not measured by 50" plasma Tv's
and 3 cars in the driveway, has plummeted.
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» RE: This debate will go on for all eternity
Posted by: edith
» RE: This debate will go on for all eternity
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: This debate will go on for all eternity
Posted by: schiffer
» What makes you think the average American wants to support someone else's family?
Posted by: edith
» presumption galore
Posted by: bingahaba
» Mixed Metaphors Galore
Posted by: edith
» Certainly the teaching of science, let alone honesty and integrity is amiss, eh troll edith? n/m
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: Certainly the teaching of science, let alone honesty and integrity is amiss, eh troll edith? n/
Posted by: bingahaba
» You are stepping into something you know nothing about
Posted by: PaulC
» Trolls and tactics
Posted by: bingahaba
» RE: Trolls and tactics
Posted by: bingahaba
» Two more questions
Posted by: bingahaba
» RE: Two more questions
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Two more questions
Posted by: bingahaba
» I am trying to understand how this "investigation" furthers understanding of Wasserman's article?
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: I am trying to understand how this "investigation" furthers understanding of Wasserman's article
Posted by: bingahaba
» Very good!
Posted by: PaulC
» Sorry
Posted by: bingahaba
» "Passive-aggressive"? Where, exactly?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: "Passive-aggressive"? Where, exactly?
Posted by: bingahaba
» Additional issues.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Additional issues, cont.....
Posted by: mjabele
» That is an "interesting" assumption - that enviro's are holding up the green movement! - Part I
Posted by: PaulC
» That is an "interesting" assumption - that enviro's are holding up the green movement! - Part II
Posted by: PaulC
» Simple question, then - which might end the whole debate.....
Posted by: mjabele
» I would keep current nuclear online with a caveat
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: That is an "interesting" assumption - that enviro's are holding up the green movement! - Part II
Posted by: bingahaba
» Lastly...
Posted by: mjabele
» An apology
Posted by: bingahaba
» ...heartily accepted...
Posted by: mjabele
» likewise
Posted by: bingahaba
» RE: I am trying to understand how this "investigation" [Your comment earlier about logical response
Posted by: Squarehead
» Edith Posting Times from July 26
Posted by: bingahaba
» I am somewhat embarassed to admit, no!
Posted by: PaulC
» I'm sensing an increasing flavor of paranoia, Paul.
Posted by: mjabele
» My training is broadly the same
Posted by: bingahaba
» IP not DNS
Posted by: bingahaba
» Ok, you're not reading me correctly on this!
Posted by: PaulC
» Horrid Newbie - ewww ;)
Posted by: bingahaba
» You're laughable and pathetic, Paul...
Posted by: mjabele
» I can't help but add...
Posted by: mjabele
» So, you want to continue with "current sources" while we develop renewables, which YOUR OWN links...
Posted by: mjabele
» Well, let's go back to those reports -
Posted by: PaulC
» Make Analysis Interesting
Posted by: bingahaba
» No doubt we'd also factor in the fossil fuel costs associated with...
Posted by: mjabele
» Similar costs for nukes
Posted by: bingahaba
» Well, let's go back to those reports ...
Posted by: PaulC
» Can't find that article
Posted by: bingahaba
» I don't have it and I could not find it either
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: Certainly the teaching of science, let alone honesty and integrity is amiss, eh troll edith? n/m
Posted by: edith
» No, a troll has specific characteristics:
Posted by: PaulC
» On Faulty Metaphors and Presumption
Posted by: bingahaba
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Posted by: fanny666 on Jul 29, 2008 11:44 AM
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Anybody know what it's called?
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Posted by: JPHickey on Jul 29, 2008 4:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, I've been wondering why nuclear power has even been considered to be a realistic alternative. Forcing our own citizens to pay for it without their even realizing what is going on is hardly honest and transparent.
Any project as expensive and ill-defined would never be funded through legitimate sources. Yet the government has made it all seem like it is just necessary and important to support without question -- sort of like the funding of the Iraq War.
Even if the building of these plants was somehow really on the up and up, which is definitly isn't, the whole presentation is just another fraudulent scheme right down in there with McCain's claim that we can all be enjoying lower prices at the pump soon via off-shore drilling, while in reality it'll be a cold day in hell before this approach lowers gas prices.
Just how dumb have we gotten while getting our hopes up to benefit from either nuclear or off-shore drilling as though it'll all happen next month. This is rediculous! Stupid is as stupid does.
Regardless of the hopes any of us invest in these rediculuous flim-flams, it won't really make much difference in the long-run. It won't save us, and it won't even help. So why not just calm down and learn to enjoy a simpler life, I have.
I still agree with the hippies. I'm going to do what I can to avoid paying for nuclear plants or off-shore drillin. Rather, I perfer being relatively responsible for my own energy needs mostly via solar.
The traditional powers-that-be want to keep us tied to their grids so they can guage us via either nuclear or big oil, or ethanol for that matter.
I hope most of you will realize that those of you getting their backs up in defense of nuclear must have just gotten up on the wrong side of the bed. Lighten up. I'm going to celebrate it's sinking toward oblivion tonight! And I don't care of you think we are all too weak and dependent to do anything with renewables. I suppose Washington politicians love that "can't do" spirit. That way we won't question the authorities and insist on better way to create a viable future! Like, argue about nuclear, don't make waves! Behave yourselves like good little children. As for me, I'll be out doing my own things and celebrating freedom!
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jul 29, 2008 6:17 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
impossible for me to post from my ancient
Macintosh running System 9 at home.
Alternet is censoring me by upgrading.
My computer cannot be upgraded further.
Nuclear power is the safest source of
electricity, bar none.
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» RE: See my posts on the previous articles on this subject.
Posted by: aalif ba ta tha
» You needed to be censored -
Posted by: PaulC
» Any "progressive" who thinks opposing points of view should be "censored", needs to be censored...
Posted by: mjabele
» I never said that opposing points of view should be censored
Posted by: PaulC
» P.S. - read the other comments that corroborate what I said
Posted by: PaulC
» Maybe if you'd post sensibly and not be a nuclear zombie, you wouldn't be punished !
Posted by: jwverez
» So there you are Miner
Posted by: WizardofOhm
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bingahaba on Jul 31, 2008 7:42 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As to the additional carbon, or lack thereof, there are at least two parts to this issue:
1. You are only adding CO2 until (if not after) you come online with new reactors. You may step over the precipice before that reduction (if the reduction exists) happens.
2. How one removes (i.e. on which schedule) the nukes is also relevant. PaulC has stated that he is arguing to turn off nuclear and fossil sources as wind sources come online to replace them, i.e. a situation under which there is no need to replace nuclear with fossil. Note that I'm including growth in energy usage here - I presume the basis of your power-gap - an example:
In some year energy consumption grows by (e.g.) five percent, e.g. 5GWh (giga-Watt-hour - you'd have to look on e.g. wikipedia if you want actual numbers). If 10GWh/year average wind capacity is added in that year, PaulC is suggesting that 5GWh/year be removed from the Nuke/Fossil batch of generation (i.e. power-plants, or output, as most applicable).
Of course, depending on which of fossil or nuclear sources produce the most CO2/unit energy and which is turned off first, one may get more or less CO2. I believe the former issue (CO2/unit energy for each technology) is one of contention.
Hard numbers are a highly technical issue, and I've neither studied the report (van Leeuwen & Smith) in sufficient detail, nor is my background in the estimation of nuclear or coal net CO2 release.
One last thing - there is no need to feel intimidated by the basics of power-systems, or those who have engineering degrees - I fault PaulC (perhaps because he veered off the noble path of Engineering to do graphics :P ) for not putting the term "Power Gap" in sufficient context. As to whether there is in fact a gap is another matter - I hope he'll assemble some data on power consumption growth in Germany, and the growth in power availability, or find some. As to the creation of "power gaps" as PR, I'd suggest from my own reading, "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" - his style is somewhat conspirational, due to his (as far as I'm concerned) psychological immaturity, but the facts and method he presents are quite common - one tries to get bigger contracts by claiming that a need exists - I've done contract work for non-specialist customers before... (If it helps, I didn't negotiate the contracts, so I can claim innocence.)
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» units too small
Posted by: bingahaba
» I'm not sure I agree with you that this is PAUL's position.....
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I'm not sure I agree with you that this is PAUL's position.....
Posted by: bingahaba
» Bingahaba, you stated my position correctly
Posted by: PaulC
» Environmental organizations
Posted by: bingahaba
» RE: Environmental organizations
Posted by: bingahaba
» Well, the groups that have national stature are the ones that are leading on this
Posted by: PaulC
» To PaulC
Posted by: bingahaba
» I should add
Posted by: bingahaba
» I assumed that to be the case! n/m
Posted by: PaulC
» You appear to have a point here
Posted by: PaulC
» I'm done on this thread & article, so have fun
Posted by: bingahaba
» I'm breaking my promise very slightly
Posted by: bingahaba
» again
Posted by: bingahaba
» Nice conversing with you. n/m
Posted by: PaulC
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bingahaba on Aug 23, 2008 12:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» On claims of nuclear power
Posted by: bingahaba
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JayHaden on Aug 23, 2008 1:02 PM
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The fact that China and Europe may be investing heavily in nuclear reinforces my argument regarding the price of uranium. Starting decades ago when uranium was dirt cheap, France is now generating 70% of its electricity with nukes. If the rest of Europe were to follow, what does that do to demand? Remember that the OECD (the main economic think tank for developed countries) has projected an 85 year supply from all known reserves. That's both the easy and hard to get at ore.
Now, add China to the mix, and probably India. Why would China invest so heavily? Because it is sitting on trillions of dollars, has a huge construction industry that must be fed, and will need oodles of energy from all sources. China is also investing heavily in solar and wind power, coal, gas, etc. It controls the Sudan oil fields (keeping us or anyone from helping the Darfurians) and is making big play for other energy and mineral resources in Africa and Latin America. In short, China is not overlooking anything. Even if cheap uranium will last only 10-15 years, China will milk that source until it disappears -- regardless of the costs and environmental dangers.
The US has had reasonably good luck with nukes -- only a few major mishaps, along with many "minor" ones (like the guy that got nailed to the roof of a reactor by an exploding fuel rod in Idaho). Our big problem has been waste disposal, which I won't get into here. Suffice it to say, stuff inevitably leaks, no matter where you put it (what are the French doing with their waste?).
In the end, though, for the US, it will be the price of nuclear fuel that will convince people that investing heavily in nukes is a bad idea. Operational safety and waste disposal are of concern, but money talks louder. Whatever you read about the price of oil today, substitute the word uranium and add five years.
With only a quarter of China's population, we can afford to ignore some of the more dicey forms of energy and focus on the sustainable, harmless and relatively cheap sources like wind, sun and tidal power. All we need to do is eliminate the corporations that have a vested interest in old ideas from the equation. Jeez, did I really say that? Sorry.
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Posted by: Marlena on Jul 28, 2008 4:41 AM
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jul 28, 2008 5:15 AM
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So once again the taxpayer gets screwed on both ends. These "newer technologies" are not even proven. And they still haven't figured out what to do with the waste. Please, give us a break. We should have learned from 3-mile island - nuclear is not a game we can play with and figure out as we go along. Anyone care to live on 3 mile island now, I didn't think so. And why is it that these ponzi schemes are to be financed by the taxpayer? Because if they should ever function the taxpayer will not be reaping those profits!!
While everyone wants cheap energy - those days are really are over. What we need are: (1)to invest in reliable renewable resources (wind, solar, etc), (2)serious conservation, (3)investment in the U.S. infrastructure to include better intra-state & inter-state public commuting, (4)more research and development into other possible alternatives.
I'm not against nuclear - provided that it is done safe and reliably, and so far the industry hasn't proven anything other than the fact that they just want to make money! Let them spend their own money for initial development, that would ensure that they keep their costs under control and not those pie-in-the-sky, sock-it-to-the-taxpayer ponzi scams that we currently bankroll the oil companies with.
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» Rebuttal:
Posted by: abbadon2007
» Reality:
Posted by: PaulC
» Fire Up the Nukes and Stoke the Coal!
Posted by: edith
» Yelling? That is all you can do. You have no message beyond yelling for more of the same.
Posted by: PaulC
» Honestly, Paul.....
Posted by: mjabele
» I don't get - are you the fly? You keep buzzing around, but you don't SAY anything...n/m
Posted by: mjabele
» I get it, Troll Edith / Troll Mjabele tag teaming this thread -
Posted by: PaulC
» On the Efficiency & Safety of Nuclear Power
Posted by: bingahaba
» No kidding. The warmongering pols and price gouging industries don't want you to know their secrets.
Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Here we go again.....
Posted by: john mont
» RE: NRC?
Posted by: sasquuatch55
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mjabele on Jul 28, 2008 5:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.spiegel.de/inter national/germany/0,1518,472786,00.html (remove the space between "inter" and "national" before pasting).
To me, at least, there's a deep irony here.
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» It is a political decision, and a bad one, but what is new?
Posted by: PaulC
» Another deep irony: In the US, there are coal plants that nuclear energy depends upon
Posted by: Beck
» Germany's extra coal-fired plants will annually release 150 million tons of CO2...
Posted by: mjabele
» Mjabele and Edith have managed to ignore the article and every post to repeat their little factoid
Posted by: PaulC
» So, what precisely do you propose as an alternative to the 150 million annual tons of CO2?
Posted by: mjabele
» It seems to be a "factoid" you have no coherent answer to...very revealing. n/m
Posted by: mjabele
» Revealing of its irrelevance, nothing more. n/m
Posted by: PaulC
» 150 million annual tons of CO2 is "irrelevant"...?!?
Posted by: mjabele
» No - just your "argument" - see my post further down. n/m
Posted by: PaulC
» 6 billion points of view
Posted by: edith
» The problem is that you ignore everyone you disagree with
Posted by: PaulC
» Everything's Coming Up Roses
Posted by: edith
» RE: 6 billion points of view
Posted by: mtnprivy
» RE: Germany decided to phase out nuclear in 2001...
Posted by: edith
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jwverez on Jul 28, 2008 7:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You're one of those consumers who think that "electricity comes from wall outlets"...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: You're one of those consumers who think that "electricity comes from wall outlets"...
Posted by: john mont
» RE: You're one of those consumers who think that "electricity comes from wall outlets"...
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: You're one of those consumers who think that "electricity comes from wall outlets"...
Posted by: Squarehead
» Coal and nuclear are not infinite. You'll have to conserve somewhere and cut the demand down.
Posted by: maxpayne
» This is pure misinformation and dishonesty
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: This is pure misinformation and dishonesty
Posted by: edith
» Wow! It is so exhilirating watching the infantile troll mind explode with useless drivel
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: You miss the point - you are blanketing this thread with troll garbage
Posted by: jwverez
» jwverez, I agree, but don't you see the difference in how you put it and how she did?
Posted by: PaulC
» No, I don't think it's disinformation. I think you're the one being dishonest...
Posted by: mjabele
» There is no energy gap - the lights are on right now!
Posted by: PaulC
» There will be a gap, and I'm far from the only person who realizes it...
Posted by: mjabele
» I already read that and I repeat myself for the umpteenth time
Posted by: PaulC
» Umm, I mixed up which troll I was responding to ...
Posted by: PaulC
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ciccio on Jul 28, 2008 1:50 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The owners of these businesses are not in the least bit bothered about more and more jammed subways, their chauffeur looks after that problem.
The fact that the ever increasing demand for food has resulted in more foodlike substances bearing little relation to the real stuff is of no consequence, their cooks take care of it.
They are not crowded into ghettos, their children do not go to second rate schools and they have the finest health care money can buy, all thanks to unlimited growth. Their only concern with the energy problem is who to maximize the profit from it. I am an old man now, but I remember the dreams of my youth, all those advance in science, the labour saving technologies, the advances in health care should
have led to a far better life for all, those dreams have been swallowed by voracious greed and and thoughtless breeding far beyond the carrying capacity of the planet. In short, though we may have a bit more money now, the quality of life, not measured by 50" plasma Tv's
and 3 cars in the driveway, has plummeted.
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» RE: This debate will go on for all eternity
Posted by: edith
» RE: This debate will go on for all eternity
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: This debate will go on for all eternity
Posted by: schiffer
» What makes you think the average American wants to support someone else's family?
Posted by: edith
» presumption galore
Posted by: bingahaba
» Mixed Metaphors Galore
Posted by: edith
» Certainly the teaching of science, let alone honesty and integrity is amiss, eh troll edith? n/m
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: Certainly the teaching of science, let alone honesty and integrity is amiss, eh troll edith? n/
Posted by: bingahaba
» You are stepping into something you know nothing about
Posted by: PaulC
» Trolls and tactics
Posted by: bingahaba
» RE: Trolls and tactics
Posted by: bingahaba
» Two more questions
Posted by: bingahaba
» RE: Two more questions
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Two more questions
Posted by: bingahaba
» I am trying to understand how this "investigation" furthers understanding of Wasserman's article?
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: I am trying to understand how this "investigation" furthers understanding of Wasserman's article
Posted by: bingahaba
» Very good!
Posted by: PaulC
» Sorry
Posted by: bingahaba
» "Passive-aggressive"? Where, exactly?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: "Passive-aggressive"? Where, exactly?
Posted by: bingahaba
» Additional issues.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Additional issues, cont.....
Posted by: mjabele
» That is an "interesting" assumption - that enviro's are holding up the green movement! - Part I
Posted by: PaulC
» That is an "interesting" assumption - that enviro's are holding up the green movement! - Part II
Posted by: PaulC
» Simple question, then - which might end the whole debate.....
Posted by: mjabele
» I would keep current nuclear online with a caveat
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: That is an "interesting" assumption - that enviro's are holding up the green movement! - Part II
Posted by: bingahaba
» Lastly...
Posted by: mjabele
» An apology
Posted by: bingahaba
» ...heartily accepted...
Posted by: mjabele
» likewise
Posted by: bingahaba
» RE: I am trying to understand how this "investigation" [Your comment earlier about logical response
Posted by: Squarehead
» Edith Posting Times from July 26
Posted by: bingahaba
» I am somewhat embarassed to admit, no!
Posted by: PaulC
» I'm sensing an increasing flavor of paranoia, Paul.
Posted by: mjabele
» My training is broadly the same
Posted by: bingahaba
» IP not DNS
Posted by: bingahaba
» Ok, you're not reading me correctly on this!
Posted by: PaulC
» Horrid Newbie - ewww ;)
Posted by: bingahaba
» You're laughable and pathetic, Paul...
Posted by: mjabele
» I can't help but add...
Posted by: mjabele
» So, you want to continue with "current sources" while we develop renewables, which YOUR OWN links...
Posted by: mjabele
» Well, let's go back to those reports -
Posted by: PaulC
» Make Analysis Interesting
Posted by: bingahaba
» No doubt we'd also factor in the fossil fuel costs associated with...
Posted by: mjabele
» Similar costs for nukes
Posted by: bingahaba
» Well, let's go back to those reports ...
Posted by: PaulC
» Can't find that article
Posted by: bingahaba
» I don't have it and I could not find it either
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: Certainly the teaching of science, let alone honesty and integrity is amiss, eh troll edith? n/m
Posted by: edith
» No, a troll has specific characteristics:
Posted by: PaulC
» On Faulty Metaphors and Presumption
Posted by: bingahaba
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fanny666 on Jul 29, 2008 11:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anybody know what it's called?
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: JPHickey on Jul 29, 2008 4:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, I've been wondering why nuclear power has even been considered to be a realistic alternative. Forcing our own citizens to pay for it without their even realizing what is going on is hardly honest and transparent.
Any project as expensive and ill-defined would never be funded through legitimate sources. Yet the government has made it all seem like it is just necessary and important to support without question -- sort of like the funding of the Iraq War.
Even if the building of these plants was somehow really on the up and up, which is definitly isn't, the whole presentation is just another fraudulent scheme right down in there with McCain's claim that we can all be enjoying lower prices at the pump soon via off-shore drilling, while in reality it'll be a cold day in hell before this approach lowers gas prices.
Just how dumb have we gotten while getting our hopes up to benefit from either nuclear or off-shore drilling as though it'll all happen next month. This is rediculous! Stupid is as stupid does.
Regardless of the hopes any of us invest in these rediculuous flim-flams, it won't really make much difference in the long-run. It won't save us, and it won't even help. So why not just calm down and learn to enjoy a simpler life, I have.
I still agree with the hippies. I'm going to do what I can to avoid paying for nuclear plants or off-shore drillin. Rather, I perfer being relatively responsible for my own energy needs mostly via solar.
The traditional powers-that-be want to keep us tied to their grids so they can guage us via either nuclear or big oil, or ethanol for that matter.
I hope most of you will realize that those of you getting their backs up in defense of nuclear must have just gotten up on the wrong side of the bed. Lighten up. I'm going to celebrate it's sinking toward oblivion tonight! And I don't care of you think we are all too weak and dependent to do anything with renewables. I suppose Washington politicians love that "can't do" spirit. That way we won't question the authorities and insist on better way to create a viable future! Like, argue about nuclear, don't make waves! Behave yourselves like good little children. As for me, I'll be out doing my own things and celebrating freedom!
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jul 29, 2008 6:17 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
impossible for me to post from my ancient
Macintosh running System 9 at home.
Alternet is censoring me by upgrading.
My computer cannot be upgraded further.
Nuclear power is the safest source of
electricity, bar none.
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» RE: See my posts on the previous articles on this subject.
Posted by: aalif ba ta tha
» You needed to be censored -
Posted by: PaulC
» Any "progressive" who thinks opposing points of view should be "censored", needs to be censored...
Posted by: mjabele
» I never said that opposing points of view should be censored
Posted by: PaulC
» P.S. - read the other comments that corroborate what I said
Posted by: PaulC
» Maybe if you'd post sensibly and not be a nuclear zombie, you wouldn't be punished !
Posted by: jwverez
» So there you are Miner
Posted by: WizardofOhm
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bingahaba on Jul 31, 2008 7:42 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As to the additional carbon, or lack thereof, there are at least two parts to this issue:
1. You are only adding CO2 until (if not after) you come online with new reactors. You may step over the precipice before that reduction (if the reduction exists) happens.
2. How one removes (i.e. on which schedule) the nukes is also relevant. PaulC has stated that he is arguing to turn off nuclear and fossil sources as wind sources come online to replace them, i.e. a situation under which there is no need to replace nuclear with fossil. Note that I'm including growth in energy usage here - I presume the basis of your power-gap - an example:
In some year energy consumption grows by (e.g.) five percent, e.g. 5GWh (giga-Watt-hour - you'd have to look on e.g. wikipedia if you want actual numbers). If 10GWh/year average wind capacity is added in that year, PaulC is suggesting that 5GWh/year be removed from the Nuke/Fossil batch of generation (i.e. power-plants, or output, as most applicable).
Of course, depending on which of fossil or nuclear sources produce the most CO2/unit energy and which is turned off first, one may get more or less CO2. I believe the former issue (CO2/unit energy for each technology) is one of contention.
Hard numbers are a highly technical issue, and I've neither studied the report (van Leeuwen & Smith) in sufficient detail, nor is my background in the estimation of nuclear or coal net CO2 release.
One last thing - there is no need to feel intimidated by the basics of power-systems, or those who have engineering degrees - I fault PaulC (perhaps because he veered off the noble path of Engineering to do graphics :P ) for not putting the term "Power Gap" in sufficient context. As to whether there is in fact a gap is another matter - I hope he'll assemble some data on power consumption growth in Germany, and the growth in power availability, or find some. As to the creation of "power gaps" as PR, I'd suggest from my own reading, "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" - his style is somewhat conspirational, due to his (as far as I'm concerned) psychological immaturity, but the facts and method he presents are quite common - one tries to get bigger contracts by claiming that a need exists - I've done contract work for non-specialist customers before... (If it helps, I didn't negotiate the contracts, so I can claim innocence.)
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» units too small
Posted by: bingahaba
» I'm not sure I agree with you that this is PAUL's position.....
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I'm not sure I agree with you that this is PAUL's position.....
Posted by: bingahaba
» Bingahaba, you stated my position correctly
Posted by: PaulC
» Environmental organizations
Posted by: bingahaba
» RE: Environmental organizations
Posted by: bingahaba
» Well, the groups that have national stature are the ones that are leading on this
Posted by: PaulC
» To PaulC
Posted by: bingahaba
» I should add
Posted by: bingahaba
» I assumed that to be the case! n/m
Posted by: PaulC
» You appear to have a point here
Posted by: PaulC
» I'm done on this thread & article, so have fun
Posted by: bingahaba
» I'm breaking my promise very slightly
Posted by: bingahaba
» again
Posted by: bingahaba
» Nice conversing with you. n/m
Posted by: PaulC
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bingahaba on Aug 23, 2008 12:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» On claims of nuclear power
Posted by: bingahaba
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JayHaden on Aug 23, 2008 1:02 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact that China and Europe may be investing heavily in nuclear reinforces my argument regarding the price of uranium. Starting decades ago when uranium was dirt cheap, France is now generating 70% of its electricity with nukes. If the rest of Europe were to follow, what does that do to demand? Remember that the OECD (the main economic think tank for developed countries) has projected an 85 year supply from all known reserves. That's both the easy and hard to get at ore.
Now, add China to the mix, and probably India. Why would China invest so heavily? Because it is sitting on trillions of dollars, has a huge construction industry that must be fed, and will need oodles of energy from all sources. China is also investing heavily in solar and wind power, coal, gas, etc. It controls the Sudan oil fields (keeping us or anyone from helping the Darfurians) and is making big play for other energy and mineral resources in Africa and Latin America. In short, China is not overlooking anything. Even if cheap uranium will last only 10-15 years, China will milk that source until it disappears -- regardless of the costs and environmental dangers.
The US has had reasonably good luck with nukes -- only a few major mishaps, along with many "minor" ones (like the guy that got nailed to the roof of a reactor by an exploding fuel rod in Idaho). Our big problem has been waste disposal, which I won't get into here. Suffice it to say, stuff inevitably leaks, no matter where you put it (what are the French doing with their waste?).
In the end, though, for the US, it will be the price of nuclear fuel that will convince people that investing heavily in nukes is a bad idea. Operational safety and waste disposal are of concern, but money talks louder. Whatever you read about the price of oil today, substitute the word uranium and add five years.
With only a quarter of China's population, we can afford to ignore some of the more dicey forms of energy and focus on the sustainable, harmless and relatively cheap sources like wind, sun and tidal power. All we need to do is eliminate the corporations that have a vested interest in old ideas from the equation. Jeez, did I really say that? Sorry.
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