COMMENTS: 206
Get Ready for the Post-SUV World!
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With big-box vehicles waddling off into the sunset, we can expect the nation's roads to become safer and less crowded. But just as the end of the Cold War failed to bring with it a promised peace dividend, the end of the SUV era is unlikely to bring a "green dividend" -- unless it is accompanied by much bigger changes. The numbers show that even the complete disappearance of SUVs from the nation's roadways, without other fuel-saving developments, would put only a slight bend in the rising curve of national fuel consumption.
First, the Good News
By 2006, sales of the largest pickup trucks were 2½ times what they had been in 1992; meanwhile, assisted by the so-called "Hummer tax deduction," sales of 6,000- to 10,000-pound SUVs had risen 25-fold. But as last week's sales figures from Detroit made clear, 2008 will be a very different year.
In May, for the first time in 17 years, the top-selling vehicle model in America was not a pickup truck. In fact, Ford's F-150, the perennial leader, was overtaken by three small import-car models. Ford's June truck sales were down 41 percent from a year ago, and its SUV sales are now in free-fall, down 55 percent. Sales of Dodge Ram pickups tumbled 48 percent. General Motors, Ford and Chrysler were hit hard, and all have announced plans to close or suspend production at plants that make trucks and SUVs.
The post-SUV world will come to pass only gradually, but as it does, we can look forward to getting at least some relief from the damage that the reign of the big boxes has done:
Less gas will be burned, reducing greenhouse gas emissions: The average SUV is driven 20 percent more miles per year than is the average car. That, along with its low fuel efficiency, means that it burns more than 800 gallons of fuel per year. The average pickup is only slightly less thirsty, at 700 gallons, compared with just under 500 burned by the average car. But without greater restraint by all drivers, how much can the demise of the SUV reduce fossil-fuel consumption? As we will see, not much.
Drivers of all vehicles will be less likely to die in a car crash: Michael Anderson, assistant professor of economics at the University of California at Berkeley, has done the math showing that increasing popularity of SUVs and pickups led to an increase in annual traffic fatalities. Of the additional deaths, he wrote, "approximately one-ï¬fth accrue to the light trucks' own occupants, and the remaining four-ï¬fths accrue to the occupants of other vehicles and pedestrians." To put it another way, getting most SUVs and pickups off the road will make everyone safer -- especially those who don't drive them.
In High and Mighty, his definitive 2002 book on the SUV, journalist Keith Bradsher described how the taller vehicles block the vision of car drivers and contribute to accidents. Statistics show that a person who's at the wheel of a small, nimble car and appropriately aware of the need to avert danger is much safer than a complacent driver relying solely on the protective bulk of an SUV -- a vehicle "designed to overcome its environment, not to respond to it," in the words of writer Malcolm Gladwell.
Fewer children might be run over: Some, but not all, surveys have shown that, presumably because of poorer visibility to the rear, SUVs and pickups are more likely to be involved in what are called driveway "backover" accidents, most victims of which are children. In one study, backovers were fatal most often when the vehicle was a pickup truck.
There will be more room on the road for everyone -- and maybe less road construction: Small-car drivers know that bottom-of-a-well feeling that comes when you're surrounded on all sides at a traffic light by 3-ton, black-windowed behemoths. Bradsher cites studies demonstrating the various ways in which SUVs clog roadways: that a length of road or street able to accommodate, say, 100 cars can hold only 71 SUVs or 87 pickups; that at busy intersections dominated by SUVs, fewer vehicles can get through a green light before the next change; and that large SUVs sap taxpayers by increasing wear and tear on roads. Indeed, as big-vehicle pressures decline, states and municipalities may be able to give drivers, and the environment, a little break by canceling some of their road-widening plans.
Will we be contending with less road rage?: A 2004 Canadian study in the journal Traffic Injury Prevention found that in "serious" road rage incidents, in which drivers "intentionally damaged or attempted to damage another driver's vehicle, and/or intentionally hurt or attempted to hurt a driver or passenger in another vehicle," SUV drivers were more likely to be perpetrators than were drivers of other vehicle types.
What Will SUV Drivers Drive Next?
Despite being prized for their roominess, most SUVs haul only slightly more people than do cars -- on average, not enough riders to fill even the front seat. In advertisements, SUVs are parked on cliff tops, but in real life, 76 percent are parked in urban streets, driveway and garages most nights. And despite their hardworking country-and-western image, 60 percent of pickup trucks are owned by urban households and typically ply the streets with empty cargo beds.
In a 2005 paper, University of Pennsylvania doctoral candidate Josh Lauer dismissed the SUV's reputation for safety and spaciousness: "Safety is not road safety but personal safety, and space is not interior cargo space but social space, including the ability to traverse the most inhospitable terrain to sequester oneself from the hazards of modern civilization. In this way, the SUV's popularity reflects underlying American attitudes toward crime, random violence, and the importance of defended personal space."
Only 13 percent of SUVs are owned by families of 5 or more persons, and a big 40 percent are found in households of only one or two. A report prepared for the U.S. Department of Energy in August 2000 cited a survey of car buyers that found: "The average SUV customer is male, married, aged 45 years, in a household with an income of $94,400. ... Because SUV owners are fairly affluent, the price of the vehicle and of fuel is not sufficiently important to cause them to consider changing the type of vehicle they drive."
But at the time that paper was published, gasoline was at $1.43 per gallon, a price we're certain never to see again. Recent price shocks appear to have changed attitudes even among well-to-do car shoppers, despite the fact that people who can easily afford a $100 dinner check should be unfazed by a $100-plus tank of gas.
Without a national survey on the issue, it's hard to predict what will fill the garages of the most affluent drivers in coming years, according to Pamela Danziger. As president of Unity Marketing in Stevens, Penn., a firm specializing in analysis of luxury markets, Danziger predicts that current high-end SUV drivers "will keep them going until their current leases are up or it's time to buy a new vehicle. Then it is likely that they will trade down to a more economical, but no less luxurious vehicle."
The well-heeled sport-utility driver won't be going extinct. On the day that automakers' dismal June sales figures were announced, Reuters profiled a few members of that species -- people like John Stephens:
Arizona mortgage broker John Stephens uses his big plum-colored Dodge RAM pickup to tow off-road vehicles out to the desert to play. He likes their comfort and space. As he sluiced gallon after gallon of gas at $4.16 a go into his truck at a Scottsdale gas station, Stephens said he was prepared to make certain sacrifices to improve consumption, such as driving more slowly if the government cut speed limits to save fuel. But he would not consider giving up his truck despite getting just 13 miles per gallon. "I'd rather see more drilling and more alternative type fuels, anything to keep the price of gas down," he said.Possibly the worst news for Detroit in June was that buyers were not just switching models or brands; sales were down 18 percent across the board. With the era of cheap oil over, companies may find that it's hard to build and sell a vehicle that meets both the economic and the psychological demands of drivers. As they scramble to find one, you can bet that they'll want to learn from their previous, ultra-successful SUV market analysis. In his book, Bradsher asks, "Who has been buying SUVs since automakers turned them into family vehicles?" and arrives at this answer:
They tend to be people who are insecure and vain. They are frequently nervous about their marriages and uncomfortable about parenthood. They often lack confidence in their driving skills. Above all, they are apt to be self-centered and self-absorbed, with little interest in their neighbors or communities. No, that's not a cynic talking -- that's the auto industry's own market researchers ...But setting up SUV owners as villains is probably not very helpful. (Nor is the SUV's widely discussed appeal to the "reptile brain," an idea hatched by the eccentric French anthropologist Clotaire Rapaille and popularized by Bradsher.)
Adapting society to the twin problems of declining oil supplies and rising atmospheric carbon requires that we face an awkward truth: It's not that there are too many SUVs or pickups on the road, it's that too many vehicles of all types are rolling around out there.
Many ex-SUV drivers have been trading them in for so-called crossover vehicles (CUVs) -- smaller versions of SUVs with car-like unibody construction. But even a mass replacement of SUVs with cars would not make this a fuel-frugal nation. Suppose that all SUV owners in America turned instead to average-efficiency cars or CUVs while retaining current driving habits. That, based on government figures, would reduce fuel consumption by less than 5 billion gallons per year -- equivalent to 3 percent of national gasoline consumption. Were all SUVs replaced by those hot-selling Prius hybrids, the switch would save about 7.5 percent.
It may be, as two Duke University professors recently recommended, that policy should be focused on replacing the most inefficient vehicles; however, the conservation gains estimated above would not even make up the ground that we lost in the SUV era. Replacing SUVs with standard cars would take us back to the nation's 2003 level of gas consumption; with Priuses, we'd get back to 1999. And much of the good done by those small savings would be canceled out by the deep ecological tireprint of the discarded vehicles and the manufacture, sales and eventual disposal of so many new cars.
Since 1990, the total number of vehicle-miles traveled in the United States has risen twice as fast as the country's population. Americans appear to be driving less in 2008, but we continue to travel in largely empty vehicles. In 2001 figures for occupancy (the average number of people, including the driver, who ride in each vehicle type) were 1.48 per pickup; 1.57 per passenger car; 1.76 for SUV; and 2.20 for minivan.
A North Carolina survey found that over a six-month period in 2001, 78 percent of SUVs on the road had no occupants other than the driver; the figure was the same for pickups and slightly higher than the 76 percent observed for passenger cars. That squares with DOT figures showing that 76 percent of commuter trips are made solo.
From the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) comes this astonishing comparison (pdf): "In 1969, about 20.6 percent of households owned no vehicles [and a miniscule number owned more than three]. By 2001, more households owned four or more vehicles than owned no vehicles." We now have almost 14 million more personal vehicles in the US than we have licensed drivers.
Where Will the SUVs Go Next?
Production of new SUVs and pickups could eventually taper off somewhere near its level of the early 1980s, when sport-utility vehicles were used primarily for, well, sport and utility. Meanwhile, a financial system that's still hung over from the pop of the McMansion bubble is sinking even deeper, as -- pop! -- goes the McMotor bubble.
AutoWeek reports that "with some 800,000 truck-based sport-utility vehicles coming off lease this year, residual values projected three and four years ago will be missed by as much as $6,000 per unit... Those who lend the money -- banks, credit unions, car companies' captive finance arms and others who write leases -- will face a tab of nearly $5 billion just in 2008."
Abner Perney is a city commissioner in Salina, Kansas, where he owns and runs Abner's Autos, a used car business. He's watching prices of SUVs and pickups sink into a seemingly bottomless pit and expects the lease crunch to trigger "another banking credit mini-crisis" that mirrors the home mortgage fiasco. Perney, who is now running for the Kansas state senate on a low-carbon-emissions platform, adds, "Same thing goes for millions of people who owe much more than their gas hog is worth, when they find themselves in the bind of wanting to sell or having to sell."
Many of the oldest, least expensive gas-guzzlers may end up parked with those families who can least afford to feed them. Perney expects used SUVs to move well down the income scale: "Historically, poor folks have big old cars because they depreciate fast, yet they are tough enough to keep on going. Keeping them running is actually cheaper for everything other than fuel and oil, because they're rugged and generally understressed mechanically. The luxury doodads and electronic gizmos are expensive to repair, but you can usually get by without them."
If fuel costs keep rising, they could overwhelm those other expenses. Nevertheless, many low-income earners are familiar with having to pay heavy recurring bills because they can't afford big one-time costs up front: Some pay outrageous weekly or daily rents for lousy housing because they can't afford high deposits and advance rent, or are ripped off by check-cashing outfits because they can't put up the minimum deposit for a checking account. Similarly, if the more fuel-efficient vehicles end up with the least affordable price tags on used-car lots, cash-strapped buyers may end up stuck with big, cheap trucks or SUVs. The question of how to keep them running will have to be left for another day.
Taking Back the Streets
In dealing with the aftermath of the SUV boom and bust, some creativity is needed. Maybe a worthwhile complement to the nation's Strategic Petroleum Reserve would be a Strategic Light Truck Reserve. All of those orphaned SUVs and macho pickups could be rounded up, mothballed and designated a public resource. Then over the coming decades, they could be doled out a few at a time to communities, to be shared by all residents for necessary hauling, towing and traveling in larger groups. Because most people need the greater capacity of SUVs and pickups only rarely, such vehicles would seem to be ideal candidates for joint-ownership or sharing arrangements.
Tracey Axelsson is executive director of the nonprofit Cooperative Auto Network (CAN) in Vancouver, British Columbia, which is the oldest car-sharing co-op in the English-speaking world. By offering pickup trucks in its fleet, CAN manages to fill members' occasional hauling needs while helping reduce the number of large vehicles on the road. Axelsson hopes "that the old adage is changing -- that 'The only thing better than owning a truck is having a friend that does' will become 'The only thing better than sharing a truck is spending the money you save from not owning one.'"
But, she adds, CAN is part of a coalition of similar groups struggling to develop a general code of ethics for car sharing. Otherwise, she says, such systems "can fall into the standard drama of providing just another disposable automobile or actually add to the number of cars in a person's toy box."
Don Fitz of St. Louis, Mo., who edits the green-social journal Synthesis/Regeneration (disclosure: I am on the journal's editorial board) recently laid out a plan for radically reducing the numbers of personal vehicles on the road through combinations of living rearrangements, incentives and disincentives. Some of his recommendations: Cut the workweek to 32 hours or much less, ensure that getting to work is quicker without a car than with one, move jobs closer to residences, and start making it harder to drive by eliminating more parking spaces every year. (The Utah state government recently went to an energy-saving four-day workweek, but without decreasing work hours.)
Fitz emphasized, "Increasing trains and buses could be deep green transportation -- but if and only if it is part of an actual decrease in the number of automobiles. Likewise, increasing bicycles, scooters, carpooling and car-sharing is truly green transportation only if it is a piece of the big picture of reducing cars."
Our vehicle population will eventually shrink, whether it's through choice or necessity. This twilight of the SUV era seems an appropriate occasion to rework our whole concept of personal transportation -- and start depopulating America's car dealerships and parking lots.
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Posted by: gellero1 on Jul 10, 2008 12:45 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Al Gore wants his Jet, if I want my gas guzzling Ferrari.................why should anyone care.
I can afford NOT to take public transportation.
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» Aho ka
Posted by: Negative_Creep
» Didn't George Harrison write a song called...
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» RE: Didn't George Harrison write a song called...
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» RE: Drive What You Can Afford
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» RE: Drive What You Can Afford
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Drive What You Can Afford
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» Ah, but I bought what I could afford....four years ago.
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Ah, but I bought what I could afford....four years ago.
Posted by: camanokat
» RE: Ah, but I bought what I could afford....four years ago.
Posted by: carbon-based
» $186 a month
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» RE: Drive What You Can Afford
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» "Got small wee-wees?
Posted by: paulmagillsmith
» RE: "Got small wee-wees?
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: "Got small wee-wees?" thank you, Squarehead; indeed I was.
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» RE: Drive What You Can Afford
Posted by: john mont
» RE: Drive What You Can Afford
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» What really sucks is...
Posted by: EinMD
» Dear Selfish Dumbshit:
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: adp3d on Jul 10, 2008 3:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It seems to me...
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» Yahshu
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» RE: It seems to me...
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: It seems to me...
Posted by: Knot_Rich
» RE: It seems to me...
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: Poederbach on Jul 10, 2008 4:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A very practical solution would be to replace the car in some areas by a human powered vehicles ( HVP's), like a bike. Many Americans are overweighted not to say obese since many only do sitting work, watch TV sitting on the couch ore drive in a car from A to B instead of using their own musclepower to do so.
There are many solutions mentioned in the article but none of them radical enough to realy solve the problem. I understand very well it needs courage to do a radical change.
For many that like relatively fast transportation for commuting to work concider driving a Velomobile that has almost zero CO2 footprint besides parts of your breath and the occasional fart.
If you live to far from work, just decide to go and live nearer to the job, there must be cheap houses around now or swap housing.
A Velomobile is family of the bycicle, basically it is a trike with a fairing that has an extreme aerodynamic shape. It is able to reach speeds of 18 mph while you deliver just 100 Watts of power, like you where going easy on a normal bike. Of course if you get addicted to your own power yu can reach speeds up to 35 mph or even more. The Velomobile gives full weather protection. There are power assisted Velo's as well that use small electric motors.
Strange enough bikes in the US are mostly sold as toys for kids but only taken seriously by a few.
The upside is that by biking two times one hour a working day you will find a conciderably weight loss , that is if you eat properly also.
Using you own power instead of burning fuel is one of the ways to go.
For more background see the following links en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile or http://www.recumbent-bikes-truth-for-you.com/velomobile.html or http://users.pandora.be/fietser/FVDW.htm
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» RE: Human powered vehicles, HVP's
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» RE: Human powered vehicles, HVP's
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» RE: Human powered vehicles, HVP's
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» RE: Human powered vehicles, HVP's
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» RE: Human powered vehicles, HVP's
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» RE: Human powered vehicles, HVP's
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» RE: The Flintstones were ahead of their time!
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» RE: Love the concept
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» RE: Love the concept
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» RE: Love the concept
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» RE: Love the concept
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Posted by: ellie on Jul 10, 2008 5:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
gas stations are almost empty, fewer cars and semi's already on the road, people are using what mass transit they have available to them and still the price at the pump keeps going up...
more bikes on the road but wish that the riders would understand a bicycle is not a motorcycle... you don't get the entire left lane for your pedal power, drivers don't always see you speeding along in areas without sidewalks or easements and drivers need to be more aware of bicycles too... way too many bike vs. car crashes around here lately, adult caused...
according to police stats around here, they are ticketing more bike riders who pedal like they're in a hummer and bike riders are beginning to scream that adding in the fine for the ticket comes close to getting the car out of the garage... duh!!!
personally, I walk if possible, it's safer...
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» Most drivers don't realize the law concerning bikes
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» RE: Most drivers don't realize the law concerning bikes
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» RE: note to bike riders...
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» It's that old American
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» RE: It's that old American
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» RE: It's that old American
Posted by: babs
» RE: note to bike riders...
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» A different perspective
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» RE: A different perspective
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» RE: note to bike riders...
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Jul 10, 2008 5:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many poor people cannot afford a new car or get financing for one. The dealers are now stocking fully dressed (max options and markup) compacts for the same prices a full size car cost a few years ago. I got an e-mail from a Toyota dealer offering a a Prius that should have a 22k sticker for almost 30k. That kind of ripping off of the small car market will push the poor into hand-me-down SUVs as it is all they can afford.
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» The Escalade: the New American Hooptie?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: The Escalade: the New American Hooptie?
Posted by: Dboy
» Indeed! Freedom of movement is something we all can enjoy.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Maybe in 10-12 Years
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Posted by: lasarte-oria on Jul 10, 2008 5:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is probably 'enviro-selfish' to say, but high gas prices may be the way out of the enviromental problems gas created.
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» RE: Back to the 19th century!
Posted by: ptown
» RE: Back to the 19th century!
Posted by: pomes
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Posted by: mnascimento on Jul 10, 2008 5:45 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It gets me from here to there, but doesn't allow for much else.
I am now paying exorbitant delivery charges on things I formally could schleppe home without extra planning and expense. The purchase of a few two by fours, or a mattress require logistical planning.
I dont' understand the "either, or" mentality.
Would it be so hard to design a practical vehicle with cargo space that didn't have a huge gas guzzling engine?
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» RE: Pickup trucks and SUVs fill a niche
Posted by: bitsfick
» More about trailers
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» RE: Pickup trucks and SUVs fill a niche
Posted by: Theodore
» RE: Pickup trucks and SUVs fill a niche
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Pickup trucks and SUVs fill a niche
Posted by: fomented
» Uhhhh... physics?
Posted by: geoff_canuck
» Sounds like you need to view George Carlin's "Stuff" monologue
Posted by: Forrest
» It was covered in the article-keep your friends with bigger vehicles
Posted by: chaoslegs
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Posted by: carbon-based on Jul 10, 2008 5:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Equating owning SUV, with self esteem issues is a bit of a stretch or is it.. depends on where one lives.. Most pick ups I see where I live - a very rural area) have tool boxes attached to them. They are work trucks. SUV's are Honda's or others that are unibody construction and have minivan counterparts of the same chassis. 20mpg is nothing to write home about but it's not 13 mpg as the article states.
Funny but I see the VERY LARGE SUV's Caddys etc closer to and in NYC - brand new ones driven by minorities ( I wont say who - and dare I say it, those in lost of gold chains and "wife beaters" T shirts. ). There's that self esteem thing!
Getting pickups off the road wont improve safety.. getting tractor trailers off the road will improve safety. Getting hit by a car or suv at 70mph is bad either way!
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» RE: The auto companies link SUVs to self-esteem problems, not the author
Posted by: carbon-based
» The less hair they have, the more car they drive
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» RE: The less hair they have, the more car they drive
Posted by: donl51
» RE: Who drives what
Posted by: dustdevil
» Downside?
Posted by: truthlover
» Call me unpatriotic
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Call me unpatriotic
Posted by: carbon-based
» lol
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Call me unpatriotic
Posted by: babs
» RE: Who drives what
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Who drives what
Posted by: PortlandLiberal
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Posted by: pikaomega on Jul 10, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At this point, no one had even really heard of the Prius...in fact every dealer in the St. Louis area had, at most, three on the lot at any point in time. So, after I bought the car, I was pretty conspicuous in traffic.
Perhaps because I fumed every time I got stuck next to one at a light, but it always seemed that the people driving the land behemoths took extra special care to be extra dickish. They took up a lane and a half, at least. They made sure to barrel thru the city without regard to life nor limb. It seemed as if the purchase of a sedan was automatically understood as an invitation to vehicular manslaughter. Most of my scowls were met in kind, especially since I added my "Draft SUV Drivers First" bumpersticker.
But, recently I have become a bit more chipper about the whole deal. Pulling up next to a Hummer at a red light brings a smile to my lips, as a warm honey wave washes over me. St. Louis has some of the lowest gas in the nation, but it's still teetering at $4 a gallon. For all the years of grief that I have gotten, not just for the car but for the mindset that the car has been seen to represent (read: peacenik, liberal, commie, traitor, et al), this development comes to me with a sense of satisfaction.
As a kid, my mom's favorite saying was "if you don't listen, you'll have to feel," and how right she was.
Can we listen now?
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» RE: bwaa haa haaaa...
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» RE: bwaa haa haaaa...
Posted by: Karina
» RE: Prius!
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» RE: bwaa haa haaaa...
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» RE: bwaa haa haaaa...
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» Can we listen now?
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Posted by: grmartin on Jul 10, 2008 7:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: david.model@senecac.on.ca on Jul 10, 2008 7:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real problem is the consumption of fossil fuel irrespective of the price or availability. Clearly and simply, fossil fuels contribute to greenhouse emissions which are already approximately 60% above the levels needed to sustain our planet. Increasing current consumption levels cannot possibly be the solution in the short or long term.
Compounding the problem is the fact that oil is either close to or past its peak. That means that oil is guaranteed to become more expensive and dirty as producers extract oil from less efficient sources. For example, the Tar Sands in Canada has catapulted to number one in known oil reserves. It is extremely costly and dirty to extract and destroys the environment in a large area. Greenhouse emissions will skyrocket as people begin to consume more oil from these dirty and inefficient sources.
Confusing our understanding of the problem is the discussion about the price of oil. Obviously, the oil companies want you to believe that it is related to the supply of oil and hence the solution is to produce more oil. Surprise! Surprise! The real problem is neither the supply which has been fairly constant nor the demand which is rising due to the increasing consumption in countries such as India and China but can still be met for a while given current reserves. The real problem is speculation. Speculators are not only betting on the price today but the price well into the future. It is their predatory betting for quick profits that is driving up the price for consumers.
Possibly the problem would be fully addressed if those with ties with the oil companies, including oil company executives, shareholders, lobbyists, and politicians who are in a bed of oil with the oil companies, paid more attention to the fate of their younger relatives than to the ever-increasing profits of oil companies.
http://www.stateofdarkness.com
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Posted by: BreeMass on Jul 10, 2008 7:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yeah but what about the comedic value?
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Well lets see!
Posted by: donl51
» RE: Well lets see!
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Well lets see!
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: adocann1 on Jul 10, 2008 7:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Suv's have a place too
Posted by: BreeMass
» True, but most people don't use them for that.
Posted by: EinMD
» Kids and SUVs
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: Kids and SUVs
Posted by: annavan1
» Thank you for your permission.
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: True, but most people don't use them for that.
Posted by: shinseiji
» Did you actually READ my response?
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Suv's have a place too
Posted by: shinseiji
» RE: Suv's have a place too - Claridication as you know not of which you speak.
Posted by: adocann1
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Posted by: reelectnoone on Jul 10, 2008 7:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read my article at:
Pure electrics
Then we need some kind of tax credit to help people get rid of SUV's. Problem is people who have them now can't sell them because no one wants them. Many are stuck with them and can't "downgrade" to a lower mileage vehicle.
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» RE: More needs to be done.
Posted by: EinMD
» Detroit automakers need to get on board as well...
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 10, 2008 8:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I Don't Think...
Posted by: pdxstudent
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Posted by: tvaspen on Jul 10, 2008 8:56 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And by the way, my penis is adequet.
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» RE: I drive a.....
Posted by: EinMD
» Lots of people need trucks for work.
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Lots of people need trucks for work.
Posted by: EinMD
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Posted by: Sister on Jul 10, 2008 8:56 AM
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» RE: Small Cars Are Not For Every Body
Posted by: NoKidding
» RE: Small Cars Are Not For Every Body
Posted by: HoboHomo
» With all due respect...
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: With all due respect...
Posted by: NoKidding
» RE: Small Cars Are Not For Every Body
Posted by: polyrhythms
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Posted by: NoKidding on Jul 10, 2008 8:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: 220vBrain on Jul 10, 2008 9:03 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and drive for nearly a week. (gasoline then was 28 cents @gal.) My favoite car of all was a Morris Minor 1000 coupe. I drove that car for ten years, until I got married.( I was sorry I ever let it go too !)
This was when Detroit was pushing muscle cars, huge engines, and big horse power. I never understood the mindlessness of these type of vehicles. They were totally pointless.
Fast foward to today, and again, they are pushing retro muscle cars, with hemi engines, big horse power, and ever ridiculas top ends...
While the world is running dry on fossil fuels, this new wave of totally stupid vhicles makes no sense at all.
Why can't anyone bring back the PIP SQUEEK little cars like those that England, Italy, France,Japan and Germany used to make, only more reliable, safe, comfortable? Why does everything have to be able to go 180+mph,supercharged,fill with every kind of electronic gadget imaginable, and cost $90,000
on average? It is absolutley stupid!
I want another (NEW) Morris Minor 1000 with slight improvemnts...I never wanted a Hemi Cuda, a Corvette, or a Porche 911 twin turbo...I want a simple car, that is fun to drive, efficient, and costs $2,500 new...is that too much to ask for today? Seems it is....
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» RE: What happen to sane motoring?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: What happen to sane motoring?
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: What happen to sane motoring?
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Agreed!
Posted by: Forrest
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Posted by: yahshu on Jul 10, 2008 9:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Southern Gal on Jul 10, 2008 9:11 AM
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» I may have to live in my Ford Escape if the economy gets much worse
Posted by: Smackback
» RE: I may have to live in my Ford Escape if the economy gets much worse
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: D. Shenary on Jul 10, 2008 9:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Peak Oil Enthusiasts?
Posted by: pomes
» RE: Peak Oil Enthusiasts?
Posted by: D. Shenary
» RE: Peak Oil Enthusiasts?
Posted by: pomes
» RE: Peak Oil Enthusiasts?
Posted by: pomes
» www.OilCrisis.org
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Peak Oil Enthusiasts?
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Peak Oil Enthusiasts?
Posted by: D. Shenary
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 10, 2008 9:24 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GOD WILL CONTINUE TO PUNISH PUNISH PUNISH AMERICA STONE COLD AND DRY TO ETERNAL DAMNATION !!
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» RE: Never let a new technology be more expensive than an outdated one.
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: pomes on Jul 10, 2008 9:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read somewhere that China is paying ~$2.30 a gallon.
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» RE: Training to live like serfs
Posted by: Dboy
» It's not about our mindset, dboy, it's about the corporatists' master plan
Posted by: Smackback
» RE: It's not about our mindset, dboy, it's about the corporatists' master plan
Posted by: Smackback
» RE: It's not about our mindset, dboy, it's about the corporatists' master plan
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Training to live like serfs
Posted by: pomes
» RE: Training to live like serfs
Posted by: HoboHomo
» China's gasoline is subsidized.
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: China's gasoline is subsidized.
Posted by: pomes
» RE: Training to live like serfs
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: 220vBrain on Jul 10, 2008 9:31 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: SUV's waddle off in the sunset
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: SUV's waddle off in the sunset
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: SUV's waddle off in the sunset
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: SUV's waddle off in the sunset
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre on Jul 10, 2008 10:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many retirees are downsizing or selling homes outright in favor of RV's. I went camping this summer for the first time in 10 years, and am astounded by the deployment of rolling stock among the elders: from tent trailers (air conditioned, of course), to 80' buses and everything in between. Most are SUVs, vans and pick-ups. Many tow cars, bikes and other motorized vehicles. Some look like they're schlepping their entire estate. 300lb BBQ's, satellite dishes. This is camping? WTF leave home? Tents seem antiquated. If anyone's tenting, they're either under 30 or homeless.
Long story short, this crowd uses a lot of energy! They have money to spend, and the oil companies will follow them on their travels right to the gas tank inlets on the hearses in their funeral procession.
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Posted by: finch on Jul 10, 2008 10:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or do the US's oil consumption stats we read already include our military's use?
Does anyone know? Links please!
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» RE: One excuse left?
Posted by: BlackbirdHighway
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Posted by: ChairmanMetal on Jul 10, 2008 10:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Drive big! Drive fast!
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» RE: Keep Your SUVs and Pickups
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: dasq on Jul 10, 2008 10:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Artkansas on Jul 10, 2008 10:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People didn't just wake up one day and decide that they needed an SUV. There really wasn't any real new conditions that created demand for them. So how did they come to prominence?
The SUV concept is not new. El Kineño was designed by Harley Earl for a friend of his who just happened to be a Congressman. Click on the link to see it. Just like the Pet Rock, demand for SUV's was artificially induced.
I can only assume at this point, but I have to wonder, how much support car makers got from big oil on this account, and how much our government was influenced to allow the sale of them. After the late 70s, you couldn't go back to big box cars and fins were dead, so a new dressing for the gas guzzler had to be found. And because of the way tax and pollution laws got written, selling a truck as a car was the perfect idea.
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Posted by: XXXXXX on Jul 10, 2008 10:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We drive the Rendezvous and S-10 as much as possible to keep down our the money we spend on gasoline.
As a result, we only drive the Tahoe in the winter months, or if one of the other two cars needs maintenance.
We have no intention of selling our Tahoe because we live in Wisconsin and we need it's four-wheel drive and large diameter mud/snow tires in the winter months to cope with the snow. When the Tahoe wears out we will probably replace it with another used Tahoe, or used Ford Expedition, no matter what the price of gasoline.
John P. Stoltenberg, P.E.
Elkhart lake, WI
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Posted by: Jdog on Jul 10, 2008 1:32 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No way these monkeys can afford to keep driving these crates, but they can't seem to stop either. Considering the fact that probably 90% of these people are still making payments on $50,000+ vehicles while their homes depreciate, I wonder how long it will be before they finally wake up to the fact that the GOP is no friend of theirs...
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» They will reap what they have sown
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: They will reap what they have sown
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Rorschach on Jul 10, 2008 1:46 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And mail the manure to Detroit and DC.
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» RE: Back to the Horse!
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: TommyD on Jul 10, 2008 3:02 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You might find these links interesting:
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17344368/
linked text = 100 most efficient cars in the UK. Scroll down and they break it up by type of car.
www.wisegeek.com/which-are-the-most-fuel-efficient-cars.htm
www.green-energy-news.com/arch/nrgs2005/20050215.html
www.csmonitor.com/2005/0826/p01s03-woeu.html
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» RE: urope
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: urope
Posted by: TommyD
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Posted by: shinseiji on Jul 10, 2008 3:33 PM
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Posted by: shinseiji on Jul 10, 2008 3:57 PM
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Posted by: rdsanchez1966 on Jul 10, 2008 4:17 PM
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Go electric: http://www.eaaev.org/
Peace out.
Robert
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» RE: why such big cars anyway?
Posted by: wisegalah
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jul 10, 2008 6:01 PM
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» Our Congress despises mass transit research and development
Posted by: PaulK
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Posted by: WaldoMaui on Jul 10, 2008 7:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: cfuz7 on Jul 10, 2008 10:00 PM
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Posted by: rchapin8391 on Jul 10, 2008 10:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Sheep Rancher
Posted by: annavan1
» Fine for a rancher, but every SUV or truck in this big city is being driven alone,
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: ImSwiss on Jul 11, 2008 7:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Get a can of Fix a Flat and loose the spare and jack.
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Posted by: rlseballos on Jul 11, 2008 7:31 AM
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Create choices by removing all taxes on the alternatives (no excise tax on the fuel, no sales tax on zero-oil vehicles), and slowly increase taxes on oil & oil-consuming vehicles - to keep government revenues unharmed.
All the other stuff to improve efficiency, or raise cost of transportation - will have little effect, or just hurt people who have to bear the burden.
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Posted by: nfreuden on Jul 11, 2008 7:55 AM
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Corporations and Health Watch monitors the health impacts of the practices of the automobile, alcohol,food, firearms, tobacco and pharmaceutical industries.
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Posted by: peterwinters on Jul 11, 2008 8:49 AM
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Posted by: jehu83 on Jul 11, 2008 9:22 AM
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» RE: Doesn't 7.5 percent seem a little low?
Posted by: jehu83
» The Prius gets more than 30 mpg . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» Our Prius is getting 55 mpg in this warm weather
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Jul 11, 2008 10:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Life is all about choices; and if in the U.S.A. auto manufacturers can build more fuel efficient vehicles (but not EVERYONE can drive a Prius), motorists can claim the streets without having to glance around a Dodge Ram or an SUV.
Part of the blame lies on the Big Three making pickups and SUVs (why do you mainly only see ONE person in a Suburban or Excursion!!) that clog the roads and there are a ton of these kinds in Los Angeles.
Nevertheless people will continue to drive these elephantine beasts regardless of gas and maintenance required. God forbid if anyone buys an SUV/pickup over six years old. We still need a truck to haul things, but as the author notes, many of these vehicles don't carry a payload; rather, some are "pimped out" with fancy rims and you possibly can't drive a customized truck/SUV on dirt roads. You see these ugly things on city streets without dirt on them, as seen in L.A.
A long over due shift in our driving habits finally has come. The lesson learned is that we can't continue our wasteful ways with the earth's resources. The final cost is not to automakers, bankers, per se, but to the environment.
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Posted by: PaulK on Jul 11, 2008 1:30 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: boatboy_srq on Jul 11, 2008 3:34 PM
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Take, for example, the Astra. A Vauxhall/Opel standard for over twenty years, it's recognized as an upmarket yet efficient not-so-small car in Europe. This year, bearing a Saturn badge, it came to the U.S. But the European version, which gets 35 city and 55 highway (Imperial gallons, according to UK reviews) from a 1.6-litre, didn't mke it: instead, the US version gets 24 city and 32 highway from a 1.8-litre (this from Saturn's own website).
Now granted, the Imperial gallon is roughly 110% of a US gallon, so the European model isn't as thrifty as those numbers look at first glance, but they still equate at least to 30-plus and high-40s in US measures. And granted the European and US fuel economy methodologies are slightly different (the US, for example, takes into account air conditioning usage). But that's not the point. What matters here is that every major US auto manufacturer has a counterpart or subsidiary in Europe, building fuel-efficient vehicles there - yet the technology and engineering don't come to the US and don't get integrated into vehicles produced domestically - even in the same body style or vehicle family. The Astra - whose observed performance in Saturn' incarnation is about 60% that of its Vauxhall and Opel brethren - is proof. And the Astra is - like the Pinto and Vega before it - also prof that Detroit is either unable or unwilling to answer the US consumers' desire for a more-efficient vehicle - even when the Big Three have the expertise and experience under their own roofs to give them one.
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» RE: Big Three and Fuel Economy
Posted by: buzzsaw
» RE: Big Three and Fuel Economy
Posted by: boatboy_srq
» RE: Big Three and Fuel Economy
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Big Three and Fuel Economy
Posted by: boatboy_srq
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Posted by: zorba1 on Jul 11, 2008 4:14 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have always loved big vehicles, i had 60, 62, and 67 caddy converts among a thousand or so other vehicles.
I never bought a new car in my life. I never had the income to do so and most certainly do not have it now.
Due to my pacemaker most hybrids are out of the question anyways.
Forget electric cars.
My wife is totally blind and has a guide dog, i am over six foot tall and am the father of 31 kids, i did my part to populate our world.
We have always had big vans the last twenty-five years.
I have a big stretch Limo in the backyard now an 89 lincoln towncar, it carries 11 of us. In overdrive she gets 20 mpg on the highway.
I will continue to drive my SUV untill i die or somrthing comes along which can carry at least nine or ten people and a seeing eye dog.
It takes 1,760 acres of trees to use the CO2 of one vehicle in one year.
Start planting trees, almost four billion acres of trees have been cleared in the last three hundred years. 20,000 acres are cleared each day right now.
There are about four billion vehicles on the worlds roads, maybe the worlds governments need to institute a policy of scrapping two vehicles for each new one made.
Meanwhile i cannot afford a smaller car even if i could find one which can hold several people and a seeing eye dog.
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Posted by: cheap-msmesos on Jul 12, 2008 7:52 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: BigRon on Jul 13, 2008 8:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SUV's aside, the majority of automobiles are designed by Europeans (who think American designed cars just look plain ugly!) There has been a steady slide towards U.S. makers hiring European designers for a long while.
It was Ben Franklin who said "Gentlemen, if we don't learn to hang together, then we shall certainly all be hanged seperately." It was good advice over two hundred years ago, and it's probably even more true today. There are few places in the world less well suited to deal with a major economic downturn than the USA. Russia imploded with amazing rapidity in 1991: flag waving "patriotism" won't save the USA from a similar fate.
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Posted by: djnoll on Jul 13, 2008 9:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We traded the truck for two vehicles - a small Ford Sport-trac to cover the needs of his job, and a small 2008 Yaris for me. When we did the math, we will save enough on gas and insurance on the two vehicles to cover the payment on the truck. While I am not happy about car payments, and I do not drive often because of health problems, the economics and necessity of these two vehicles makes sense. I like that my Yaris gets nearly 40 mpg while his truck now gets 18-19 mpg vs. the 8-10 on the bigger truck.
I have read in one of these postings about the job losses, and the sad fact is that these job losses were preventable. The writing has been on the wall for years, but big motor companies and oil companies have not wanted the American people to see it. Perhaps the employees that will be laid off should form their own corporation and buy out the plants, do conversions on the equipment, and then lease the plants back to the big companies to make the smaller, fuel efficient cars for them. Then they create local jobs for themselves, can restructure the plants to be energy efficient and environmental friendly, and keep America on wheels. Who knows, perhaps one such plant could actually develop the car that we all want - one that is fast, goes great distances, and does not need fossil fuels! After all, look what Saturn did when they first started with just one model!
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Posted by: Urgelt on Jul 13, 2008 2:23 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's talk about bicycles. After all, bicycles are relatively cheap (compared to cars), and they are ridiculously efficient transportation for short distances (say, under 15 miles).
There are two basic models of bikes being manufactured in the world today: "tear-up-dirt" bicycles that are fun to take off-road, and lightweight "go-fast" bicycles. All of the world's bike manufacturers make mostly these two types of bike. A small niche exists for a third type: the recumbent bike, which offers a more comfortable riding position and less wind resistance.
All of these bikes have one thing in common: they are useless for hauling. They can carry a rider and what is in his pockets, and not much else. They can't carry 8 bags of groceries or a new microwave, and you can't use them to safely ferry a couple kids to school. And if you somehow could load them up with cargo like that, they'd be *really* hard to pedal. Not much fun. Thanks, but I'll just use the car.
As a consequence, we do not think of bikes as a reasonable alternative to cars for running errands. They're fine for recreation, but that's it.
But you know, in the third world, that's not how bikes are seen. To people whose poverty prevents them from owning a car for the entire lives, a bike looks pretty sweet. They use bikes for anything you can imagine: heavy hauling, taxi cabs, anything. Trailers behind bikes are a common sight in many parts of the world, too.
What would it take to get Americans using bicycles instead of their cars for running errands and light hauling?
There are two exciting trends in bicycles that might just do the trick.
The first is electric assist bikes. An electric assist can be added to a bike which will enable any rider to outperform an olympic athlete with very little effort (or no effort at all), and do it for a good long ways (as much as 100 miles, depending on batteries, model, etc). Suddenly strapping a microwave on a bike doesn't sound as though it would make pedaling such a chore.
The cost of electricity to recharge the batteries for an electric-assist bicycle is measured in pennies.
The second is the arrival of several "longtail" bicycle designs. A longtail bike is built to stand up to heavy loading. It is longer. It has plenty of room for cargo in the rear, and it's remarkably stable, no matter how much cargo it's carrying. Here's a picture of one: http://yubaride.com/Images/mundo_red_800.gif
Here's some more: http://www.xtracycle.com/models.php#complete
When you put the two trends together, you get an electric-assist longtail - a bike easier to ride than an unpowered bike, and capable of being used for light hauling. It can replace many of the short trips you make with a car.
At present, longtail bikes are available from several vendors in the US (but they sell out very quickly, there's usually a waiting list). Kits to add a very capable electric assist to any bike are readily available, though prices are a wee bit steep right now (that'll change as lithium polymer battery costs start coming down). Bottom line is that if you want to be an early adopter, and start using a bike instead of a car or truck for errands and light hauling, you can.
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» I've carried a 40-lb. bag of mulch, flats of flowers, 3 bags of groceries, with no trailer
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: snideelf on Jul 14, 2008 8:20 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cars with high MPG would pay the least toll.
This might encourage owners of gas guzzlers to buy more fuel efficient vehicles and leave their gas guzzlers at home or for short trips.
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Posted by: mnstra on Jul 15, 2008 12:28 PM
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while reducing visibility.The main satisfaction to driving one is how safe you think you are when you ram drivers of sedans in the rear. It is a giant phallic symbol worthy of psychoanalysis.
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Posted by: modeler on Jul 15, 2008 1:16 PM
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Posted by: rickiey on Jul 16, 2008 10:48 PM
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Posted by: gellero1 on Jul 10, 2008 12:45 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Al Gore wants his Jet, if I want my gas guzzling Ferrari.................why should anyone care.
I can afford NOT to take public transportation.
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» Aho ka
Posted by: Negative_Creep
» Didn't George Harrison write a song called...
Posted by: rancespergl
» RE: Didn't George Harrison write a song called...
Posted by: willymack
» RE: Drive What You Can Afford
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Drive What You Can Afford
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Drive What You Can Afford
Posted by: carbon-based
» Ah, but I bought what I could afford....four years ago.
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Ah, but I bought what I could afford....four years ago.
Posted by: camanokat
» RE: Ah, but I bought what I could afford....four years ago.
Posted by: carbon-based
» $186 a month
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Drive What You Can Afford
Posted by: HoboHomo
» "Got small wee-wees?
Posted by: paulmagillsmith
» RE: "Got small wee-wees?
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: "Got small wee-wees?" thank you, Squarehead; indeed I was.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Drive What You Can Afford
Posted by: john mont
» RE: Drive What You Can Afford
Posted by: Shehova
» What really sucks is...
Posted by: EinMD
» Dear Selfish Dumbshit:
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: adp3d on Jul 10, 2008 3:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It seems to me...
Posted by: willymack
» Yahshu
Posted by: yahshu
» RE: It seems to me...
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: It seems to me...
Posted by: Knot_Rich
» RE: It seems to me...
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: Poederbach on Jul 10, 2008 4:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A very practical solution would be to replace the car in some areas by a human powered vehicles ( HVP's), like a bike. Many Americans are overweighted not to say obese since many only do sitting work, watch TV sitting on the couch ore drive in a car from A to B instead of using their own musclepower to do so.
There are many solutions mentioned in the article but none of them radical enough to realy solve the problem. I understand very well it needs courage to do a radical change.
For many that like relatively fast transportation for commuting to work concider driving a Velomobile that has almost zero CO2 footprint besides parts of your breath and the occasional fart.
If you live to far from work, just decide to go and live nearer to the job, there must be cheap houses around now or swap housing.
A Velomobile is family of the bycicle, basically it is a trike with a fairing that has an extreme aerodynamic shape. It is able to reach speeds of 18 mph while you deliver just 100 Watts of power, like you where going easy on a normal bike. Of course if you get addicted to your own power yu can reach speeds up to 35 mph or even more. The Velomobile gives full weather protection. There are power assisted Velo's as well that use small electric motors.
Strange enough bikes in the US are mostly sold as toys for kids but only taken seriously by a few.
The upside is that by biking two times one hour a working day you will find a conciderably weight loss , that is if you eat properly also.
Using you own power instead of burning fuel is one of the ways to go.
For more background see the following links en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile or http://www.recumbent-bikes-truth-for-you.com/velomobile.html or http://users.pandora.be/fietser/FVDW.htm
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» RE: Human powered vehicles, HVP's
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Human powered vehicles, HVP's
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: Human powered vehicles, HVP's
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: Human powered vehicles, HVP's
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Human powered vehicles, HVP's
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Human powered vehicles, HVP's
Posted by: pomes
» RE: The Flintstones were ahead of their time!
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Love the concept
Posted by: wankervon
» RE: Love the concept
Posted by: underledge
» RE: Love the concept
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: Love the concept
Posted by: greenmulberry
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Posted by: ellie on Jul 10, 2008 5:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
gas stations are almost empty, fewer cars and semi's already on the road, people are using what mass transit they have available to them and still the price at the pump keeps going up...
more bikes on the road but wish that the riders would understand a bicycle is not a motorcycle... you don't get the entire left lane for your pedal power, drivers don't always see you speeding along in areas without sidewalks or easements and drivers need to be more aware of bicycles too... way too many bike vs. car crashes around here lately, adult caused...
according to police stats around here, they are ticketing more bike riders who pedal like they're in a hummer and bike riders are beginning to scream that adding in the fine for the ticket comes close to getting the car out of the garage... duh!!!
personally, I walk if possible, it's safer...
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» Most drivers don't realize the law concerning bikes
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Most drivers don't realize the law concerning bikes
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: note to bike riders...
Posted by: Negative_Creep
» It's that old American
Posted by: outsideagitator
» RE: It's that old American
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: It's that old American
Posted by: babs
» RE: note to bike riders...
Posted by: HoboHomo
» A different perspective
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: A different perspective
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: note to bike riders...
Posted by: HelperMonkey
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Jul 10, 2008 5:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many poor people cannot afford a new car or get financing for one. The dealers are now stocking fully dressed (max options and markup) compacts for the same prices a full size car cost a few years ago. I got an e-mail from a Toyota dealer offering a a Prius that should have a 22k sticker for almost 30k. That kind of ripping off of the small car market will push the poor into hand-me-down SUVs as it is all they can afford.
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» The Escalade: the New American Hooptie?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: The Escalade: the New American Hooptie?
Posted by: Dboy
» Indeed! Freedom of movement is something we all can enjoy.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Maybe in 10-12 Years
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: lasarte-oria on Jul 10, 2008 5:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is probably 'enviro-selfish' to say, but high gas prices may be the way out of the enviromental problems gas created.
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» RE: Back to the 19th century!
Posted by: ptown
» RE: Back to the 19th century!
Posted by: pomes
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Posted by: mnascimento on Jul 10, 2008 5:45 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It gets me from here to there, but doesn't allow for much else.
I am now paying exorbitant delivery charges on things I formally could schleppe home without extra planning and expense. The purchase of a few two by fours, or a mattress require logistical planning.
I dont' understand the "either, or" mentality.
Would it be so hard to design a practical vehicle with cargo space that didn't have a huge gas guzzling engine?
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» RE: Pickup trucks and SUVs fill a niche
Posted by: bitsfick
» More about trailers
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: Pickup trucks and SUVs fill a niche
Posted by: Theodore
» RE: Pickup trucks and SUVs fill a niche
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Pickup trucks and SUVs fill a niche
Posted by: fomented
» Uhhhh... physics?
Posted by: geoff_canuck
» Sounds like you need to view George Carlin's "Stuff" monologue
Posted by: Forrest
» It was covered in the article-keep your friends with bigger vehicles
Posted by: chaoslegs
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Posted by: carbon-based on Jul 10, 2008 5:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Equating owning SUV, with self esteem issues is a bit of a stretch or is it.. depends on where one lives.. Most pick ups I see where I live - a very rural area) have tool boxes attached to them. They are work trucks. SUV's are Honda's or others that are unibody construction and have minivan counterparts of the same chassis. 20mpg is nothing to write home about but it's not 13 mpg as the article states.
Funny but I see the VERY LARGE SUV's Caddys etc closer to and in NYC - brand new ones driven by minorities ( I wont say who - and dare I say it, those in lost of gold chains and "wife beaters" T shirts. ). There's that self esteem thing!
Getting pickups off the road wont improve safety.. getting tractor trailers off the road will improve safety. Getting hit by a car or suv at 70mph is bad either way!
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» RE: The auto companies link SUVs to self-esteem problems, not the author
Posted by: carbon-based
» The less hair they have, the more car they drive
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» RE: The less hair they have, the more car they drive
Posted by: donl51
» RE: Who drives what
Posted by: dustdevil
» Downside?
Posted by: truthlover
» Call me unpatriotic
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Call me unpatriotic
Posted by: carbon-based
» lol
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Call me unpatriotic
Posted by: babs
» RE: Who drives what
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Who drives what
Posted by: PortlandLiberal
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Posted by: pikaomega on Jul 10, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At this point, no one had even really heard of the Prius...in fact every dealer in the St. Louis area had, at most, three on the lot at any point in time. So, after I bought the car, I was pretty conspicuous in traffic.
Perhaps because I fumed every time I got stuck next to one at a light, but it always seemed that the people driving the land behemoths took extra special care to be extra dickish. They took up a lane and a half, at least. They made sure to barrel thru the city without regard to life nor limb. It seemed as if the purchase of a sedan was automatically understood as an invitation to vehicular manslaughter. Most of my scowls were met in kind, especially since I added my "Draft SUV Drivers First" bumpersticker.
But, recently I have become a bit more chipper about the whole deal. Pulling up next to a Hummer at a red light brings a smile to my lips, as a warm honey wave washes over me. St. Louis has some of the lowest gas in the nation, but it's still teetering at $4 a gallon. For all the years of grief that I have gotten, not just for the car but for the mindset that the car has been seen to represent (read: peacenik, liberal, commie, traitor, et al), this development comes to me with a sense of satisfaction.
As a kid, my mom's favorite saying was "if you don't listen, you'll have to feel," and how right she was.
Can we listen now?
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» RE: bwaa haa haaaa...
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: bwaa haa haaaa...
Posted by: Karina
» RE: Prius!
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: bwaa haa haaaa...
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: bwaa haa haaaa...
Posted by: pikaomega
» Can we listen now?
Posted by: ohb0b
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Posted by: grmartin on Jul 10, 2008 7:18 AM
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Posted by: david.model@senecac.on.ca on Jul 10, 2008 7:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real problem is the consumption of fossil fuel irrespective of the price or availability. Clearly and simply, fossil fuels contribute to greenhouse emissions which are already approximately 60% above the levels needed to sustain our planet. Increasing current consumption levels cannot possibly be the solution in the short or long term.
Compounding the problem is the fact that oil is either close to or past its peak. That means that oil is guaranteed to become more expensive and dirty as producers extract oil from less efficient sources. For example, the Tar Sands in Canada has catapulted to number one in known oil reserves. It is extremely costly and dirty to extract and destroys the environment in a large area. Greenhouse emissions will skyrocket as people begin to consume more oil from these dirty and inefficient sources.
Confusing our understanding of the problem is the discussion about the price of oil. Obviously, the oil companies want you to believe that it is related to the supply of oil and hence the solution is to produce more oil. Surprise! Surprise! The real problem is neither the supply which has been fairly constant nor the demand which is rising due to the increasing consumption in countries such as India and China but can still be met for a while given current reserves. The real problem is speculation. Speculators are not only betting on the price today but the price well into the future. It is their predatory betting for quick profits that is driving up the price for consumers.
Possibly the problem would be fully addressed if those with ties with the oil companies, including oil company executives, shareholders, lobbyists, and politicians who are in a bed of oil with the oil companies, paid more attention to the fate of their younger relatives than to the ever-increasing profits of oil companies.
http://www.stateofdarkness.com
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Posted by: BreeMass on Jul 10, 2008 7:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yeah but what about the comedic value?
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Well lets see!
Posted by: donl51
» RE: Well lets see!
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Well lets see!
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: adocann1 on Jul 10, 2008 7:22 AM
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» RE: Suv's have a place too
Posted by: BreeMass
» True, but most people don't use them for that.
Posted by: EinMD
» Kids and SUVs
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: Kids and SUVs
Posted by: annavan1
» Thank you for your permission.
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: True, but most people don't use them for that.
Posted by: shinseiji
» Did you actually READ my response?
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Suv's have a place too
Posted by: shinseiji
» RE: Suv's have a place too - Claridication as you know not of which you speak.
Posted by: adocann1
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Posted by: reelectnoone on Jul 10, 2008 7:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read my article at:
Pure electrics
Then we need some kind of tax credit to help people get rid of SUV's. Problem is people who have them now can't sell them because no one wants them. Many are stuck with them and can't "downgrade" to a lower mileage vehicle.
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» RE: More needs to be done.
Posted by: EinMD
» Detroit automakers need to get on board as well...
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 10, 2008 8:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I Don't Think...
Posted by: pdxstudent
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Posted by: tvaspen on Jul 10, 2008 8:56 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And by the way, my penis is adequet.
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» RE: I drive a.....
Posted by: EinMD
» Lots of people need trucks for work.
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Lots of people need trucks for work.
Posted by: EinMD
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Posted by: Sister on Jul 10, 2008 8:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Small Cars Are Not For Every Body
Posted by: NoKidding
» RE: Small Cars Are Not For Every Body
Posted by: HoboHomo
» With all due respect...
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: With all due respect...
Posted by: NoKidding
» RE: Small Cars Are Not For Every Body
Posted by: polyrhythms
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Posted by: NoKidding on Jul 10, 2008 8:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: 220vBrain on Jul 10, 2008 9:03 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and drive for nearly a week. (gasoline then was 28 cents @gal.) My favoite car of all was a Morris Minor 1000 coupe. I drove that car for ten years, until I got married.( I was sorry I ever let it go too !)
This was when Detroit was pushing muscle cars, huge engines, and big horse power. I never understood the mindlessness of these type of vehicles. They were totally pointless.
Fast foward to today, and again, they are pushing retro muscle cars, with hemi engines, big horse power, and ever ridiculas top ends...
While the world is running dry on fossil fuels, this new wave of totally stupid vhicles makes no sense at all.
Why can't anyone bring back the PIP SQUEEK little cars like those that England, Italy, France,Japan and Germany used to make, only more reliable, safe, comfortable? Why does everything have to be able to go 180+mph,supercharged,fill with every kind of electronic gadget imaginable, and cost $90,000
on average? It is absolutley stupid!
I want another (NEW) Morris Minor 1000 with slight improvemnts...I never wanted a Hemi Cuda, a Corvette, or a Porche 911 twin turbo...I want a simple car, that is fun to drive, efficient, and costs $2,500 new...is that too much to ask for today? Seems it is....
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» RE: What happen to sane motoring?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: What happen to sane motoring?
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: What happen to sane motoring?
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Agreed!
Posted by: Forrest
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Posted by: yahshu on Jul 10, 2008 9:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Southern Gal on Jul 10, 2008 9:11 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I may have to live in my Ford Escape if the economy gets much worse
Posted by: Smackback
» RE: I may have to live in my Ford Escape if the economy gets much worse
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: D. Shenary on Jul 10, 2008 9:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Peak Oil Enthusiasts?
Posted by: pomes
» RE: Peak Oil Enthusiasts?
Posted by: D. Shenary
» RE: Peak Oil Enthusiasts?
Posted by: pomes
» RE: Peak Oil Enthusiasts?
Posted by: pomes
» www.OilCrisis.org
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Peak Oil Enthusiasts?
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Peak Oil Enthusiasts?
Posted by: D. Shenary
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 10, 2008 9:24 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GOD WILL CONTINUE TO PUNISH PUNISH PUNISH AMERICA STONE COLD AND DRY TO ETERNAL DAMNATION !!
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» RE: Never let a new technology be more expensive than an outdated one.
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: pomes on Jul 10, 2008 9:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read somewhere that China is paying ~$2.30 a gallon.
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» RE: Training to live like serfs
Posted by: Dboy
» It's not about our mindset, dboy, it's about the corporatists' master plan
Posted by: Smackback
» RE: It's not about our mindset, dboy, it's about the corporatists' master plan
Posted by: Smackback
» RE: It's not about our mindset, dboy, it's about the corporatists' master plan
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Training to live like serfs
Posted by: pomes
» RE: Training to live like serfs
Posted by: HoboHomo
» China's gasoline is subsidized.
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: China's gasoline is subsidized.
Posted by: pomes
» RE: Training to live like serfs
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: 220vBrain on Jul 10, 2008 9:31 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: SUV's waddle off in the sunset
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: SUV's waddle off in the sunset
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: SUV's waddle off in the sunset
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: SUV's waddle off in the sunset
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre on Jul 10, 2008 10:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many retirees are downsizing or selling homes outright in favor of RV's. I went camping this summer for the first time in 10 years, and am astounded by the deployment of rolling stock among the elders: from tent trailers (air conditioned, of course), to 80' buses and everything in between. Most are SUVs, vans and pick-ups. Many tow cars, bikes and other motorized vehicles. Some look like they're schlepping their entire estate. 300lb BBQ's, satellite dishes. This is camping? WTF leave home? Tents seem antiquated. If anyone's tenting, they're either under 30 or homeless.
Long story short, this crowd uses a lot of energy! They have money to spend, and the oil companies will follow them on their travels right to the gas tank inlets on the hearses in their funeral procession.
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Posted by: finch on Jul 10, 2008 10:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or do the US's oil consumption stats we read already include our military's use?
Does anyone know? Links please!
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» RE: One excuse left?
Posted by: BlackbirdHighway
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Posted by: ChairmanMetal on Jul 10, 2008 10:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Drive big! Drive fast!
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» RE: Keep Your SUVs and Pickups
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: dasq on Jul 10, 2008 10:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Artkansas on Jul 10, 2008 10:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People didn't just wake up one day and decide that they needed an SUV. There really wasn't any real new conditions that created demand for them. So how did they come to prominence?
The SUV concept is not new. El Kineño was designed by Harley Earl for a friend of his who just happened to be a Congressman. Click on the link to see it. Just like the Pet Rock, demand for SUV's was artificially induced.
I can only assume at this point, but I have to wonder, how much support car makers got from big oil on this account, and how much our government was influenced to allow the sale of them. After the late 70s, you couldn't go back to big box cars and fins were dead, so a new dressing for the gas guzzler had to be found. And because of the way tax and pollution laws got written, selling a truck as a car was the perfect idea.
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Posted by: XXXXXX on Jul 10, 2008 10:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We drive the Rendezvous and S-10 as much as possible to keep down our the money we spend on gasoline.
As a result, we only drive the Tahoe in the winter months, or if one of the other two cars needs maintenance.
We have no intention of selling our Tahoe because we live in Wisconsin and we need it's four-wheel drive and large diameter mud/snow tires in the winter months to cope with the snow. When the Tahoe wears out we will probably replace it with another used Tahoe, or used Ford Expedition, no matter what the price of gasoline.
John P. Stoltenberg, P.E.
Elkhart lake, WI
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Posted by: Jdog on Jul 10, 2008 1:32 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No way these monkeys can afford to keep driving these crates, but they can't seem to stop either. Considering the fact that probably 90% of these people are still making payments on $50,000+ vehicles while their homes depreciate, I wonder how long it will be before they finally wake up to the fact that the GOP is no friend of theirs...
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» They will reap what they have sown
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: They will reap what they have sown
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Rorschach on Jul 10, 2008 1:46 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And mail the manure to Detroit and DC.
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» RE: Back to the Horse!
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: TommyD on Jul 10, 2008 3:02 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You might find these links interesting:
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17344368/
linked text = 100 most efficient cars in the UK. Scroll down and they break it up by type of car.
www.wisegeek.com/which-are-the-most-fuel-efficient-cars.htm
www.green-energy-news.com/arch/nrgs2005/20050215.html
www.csmonitor.com/2005/0826/p01s03-woeu.html
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» RE: urope
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: urope
Posted by: TommyD
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Posted by: shinseiji on Jul 10, 2008 3:33 PM
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Posted by: shinseiji on Jul 10, 2008 3:57 PM
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Posted by: rdsanchez1966 on Jul 10, 2008 4:17 PM
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Go electric: http://www.eaaev.org/
Peace out.
Robert
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» RE: why such big cars anyway?
Posted by: wisegalah
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jul 10, 2008 6:01 PM
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» Our Congress despises mass transit research and development
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Posted by: WaldoMaui on Jul 10, 2008 7:31 PM
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Posted by: cfuz7 on Jul 10, 2008 10:00 PM
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Posted by: rchapin8391 on Jul 10, 2008 10:30 PM
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» RE: Sheep Rancher
Posted by: annavan1
» Fine for a rancher, but every SUV or truck in this big city is being driven alone,
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: ImSwiss on Jul 11, 2008 7:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Get a can of Fix a Flat and loose the spare and jack.
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Posted by: rlseballos on Jul 11, 2008 7:31 AM
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Create choices by removing all taxes on the alternatives (no excise tax on the fuel, no sales tax on zero-oil vehicles), and slowly increase taxes on oil & oil-consuming vehicles - to keep government revenues unharmed.
All the other stuff to improve efficiency, or raise cost of transportation - will have little effect, or just hurt people who have to bear the burden.
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Posted by: nfreuden on Jul 11, 2008 7:55 AM
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Corporations and Health Watch monitors the health impacts of the practices of the automobile, alcohol,food, firearms, tobacco and pharmaceutical industries.
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Posted by: peterwinters on Jul 11, 2008 8:49 AM
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Posted by: jehu83 on Jul 11, 2008 9:22 AM
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» RE: Doesn't 7.5 percent seem a little low?
Posted by: jehu83
» The Prius gets more than 30 mpg . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» Our Prius is getting 55 mpg in this warm weather
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Jul 11, 2008 10:52 AM
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Life is all about choices; and if in the U.S.A. auto manufacturers can build more fuel efficient vehicles (but not EVERYONE can drive a Prius), motorists can claim the streets without having to glance around a Dodge Ram or an SUV.
Part of the blame lies on the Big Three making pickups and SUVs (why do you mainly only see ONE person in a Suburban or Excursion!!) that clog the roads and there are a ton of these kinds in Los Angeles.
Nevertheless people will continue to drive these elephantine beasts regardless of gas and maintenance required. God forbid if anyone buys an SUV/pickup over six years old. We still need a truck to haul things, but as the author notes, many of these vehicles don't carry a payload; rather, some are "pimped out" with fancy rims and you possibly can't drive a customized truck/SUV on dirt roads. You see these ugly things on city streets without dirt on them, as seen in L.A.
A long over due shift in our driving habits finally has come. The lesson learned is that we can't continue our wasteful ways with the earth's resources. The final cost is not to automakers, bankers, per se, but to the environment.
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Posted by: PaulK on Jul 11, 2008 1:30 PM
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Posted by: boatboy_srq on Jul 11, 2008 3:34 PM
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Take, for example, the Astra. A Vauxhall/Opel standard for over twenty years, it's recognized as an upmarket yet efficient not-so-small car in Europe. This year, bearing a Saturn badge, it came to the U.S. But the European version, which gets 35 city and 55 highway (Imperial gallons, according to UK reviews) from a 1.6-litre, didn't mke it: instead, the US version gets 24 city and 32 highway from a 1.8-litre (this from Saturn's own website).
Now granted, the Imperial gallon is roughly 110% of a US gallon, so the European model isn't as thrifty as those numbers look at first glance, but they still equate at least to 30-plus and high-40s in US measures. And granted the European and US fuel economy methodologies are slightly different (the US, for example, takes into account air conditioning usage). But that's not the point. What matters here is that every major US auto manufacturer has a counterpart or subsidiary in Europe, building fuel-efficient vehicles there - yet the technology and engineering don't come to the US and don't get integrated into vehicles produced domestically - even in the same body style or vehicle family. The Astra - whose observed performance in Saturn' incarnation is about 60% that of its Vauxhall and Opel brethren - is proof. And the Astra is - like the Pinto and Vega before it - also prof that Detroit is either unable or unwilling to answer the US consumers' desire for a more-efficient vehicle - even when the Big Three have the expertise and experience under their own roofs to give them one.
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» RE: Big Three and Fuel Economy
Posted by: buzzsaw
» RE: Big Three and Fuel Economy
Posted by: boatboy_srq
» RE: Big Three and Fuel Economy
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Big Three and Fuel Economy
Posted by: boatboy_srq
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Posted by: zorba1 on Jul 11, 2008 4:14 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have always loved big vehicles, i had 60, 62, and 67 caddy converts among a thousand or so other vehicles.
I never bought a new car in my life. I never had the income to do so and most certainly do not have it now.
Due to my pacemaker most hybrids are out of the question anyways.
Forget electric cars.
My wife is totally blind and has a guide dog, i am over six foot tall and am the father of 31 kids, i did my part to populate our world.
We have always had big vans the last twenty-five years.
I have a big stretch Limo in the backyard now an 89 lincoln towncar, it carries 11 of us. In overdrive she gets 20 mpg on the highway.
I will continue to drive my SUV untill i die or somrthing comes along which can carry at least nine or ten people and a seeing eye dog.
It takes 1,760 acres of trees to use the CO2 of one vehicle in one year.
Start planting trees, almost four billion acres of trees have been cleared in the last three hundred years. 20,000 acres are cleared each day right now.
There are about four billion vehicles on the worlds roads, maybe the worlds governments need to institute a policy of scrapping two vehicles for each new one made.
Meanwhile i cannot afford a smaller car even if i could find one which can hold several people and a seeing eye dog.
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Posted by: cheap-msmesos on Jul 12, 2008 7:52 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: BigRon on Jul 13, 2008 8:42 AM
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SUV's aside, the majority of automobiles are designed by Europeans (who think American designed cars just look plain ugly!) There has been a steady slide towards U.S. makers hiring European designers for a long while.
It was Ben Franklin who said "Gentlemen, if we don't learn to hang together, then we shall certainly all be hanged seperately." It was good advice over two hundred years ago, and it's probably even more true today. There are few places in the world less well suited to deal with a major economic downturn than the USA. Russia imploded with amazing rapidity in 1991: flag waving "patriotism" won't save the USA from a similar fate.
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Posted by: djnoll on Jul 13, 2008 9:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We traded the truck for two vehicles - a small Ford Sport-trac to cover the needs of his job, and a small 2008 Yaris for me. When we did the math, we will save enough on gas and insurance on the two vehicles to cover the payment on the truck. While I am not happy about car payments, and I do not drive often because of health problems, the economics and necessity of these two vehicles makes sense. I like that my Yaris gets nearly 40 mpg while his truck now gets 18-19 mpg vs. the 8-10 on the bigger truck.
I have read in one of these postings about the job losses, and the sad fact is that these job losses were preventable. The writing has been on the wall for years, but big motor companies and oil companies have not wanted the American people to see it. Perhaps the employees that will be laid off should form their own corporation and buy out the plants, do conversions on the equipment, and then lease the plants back to the big companies to make the smaller, fuel efficient cars for them. Then they create local jobs for themselves, can restructure the plants to be energy efficient and environmental friendly, and keep America on wheels. Who knows, perhaps one such plant could actually develop the car that we all want - one that is fast, goes great distances, and does not need fossil fuels! After all, look what Saturn did when they first started with just one model!
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Posted by: Urgelt on Jul 13, 2008 2:23 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's talk about bicycles. After all, bicycles are relatively cheap (compared to cars), and they are ridiculously efficient transportation for short distances (say, under 15 miles).
There are two basic models of bikes being manufactured in the world today: "tear-up-dirt" bicycles that are fun to take off-road, and lightweight "go-fast" bicycles. All of the world's bike manufacturers make mostly these two types of bike. A small niche exists for a third type: the recumbent bike, which offers a more comfortable riding position and less wind resistance.
All of these bikes have one thing in common: they are useless for hauling. They can carry a rider and what is in his pockets, and not much else. They can't carry 8 bags of groceries or a new microwave, and you can't use them to safely ferry a couple kids to school. And if you somehow could load them up with cargo like that, they'd be *really* hard to pedal. Not much fun. Thanks, but I'll just use the car.
As a consequence, we do not think of bikes as a reasonable alternative to cars for running errands. They're fine for recreation, but that's it.
But you know, in the third world, that's not how bikes are seen. To people whose poverty prevents them from owning a car for the entire lives, a bike looks pretty sweet. They use bikes for anything you can imagine: heavy hauling, taxi cabs, anything. Trailers behind bikes are a common sight in many parts of the world, too.
What would it take to get Americans using bicycles instead of their cars for running errands and light hauling?
There are two exciting trends in bicycles that might just do the trick.
The first is electric assist bikes. An electric assist can be added to a bike which will enable any rider to outperform an olympic athlete with very little effort (or no effort at all), and do it for a good long ways (as much as 100 miles, depending on batteries, model, etc). Suddenly strapping a microwave on a bike doesn't sound as though it would make pedaling such a chore.
The cost of electricity to recharge the batteries for an electric-assist bicycle is measured in pennies.
The second is the arrival of several "longtail" bicycle designs. A longtail bike is built to stand up to heavy loading. It is longer. It has plenty of room for cargo in the rear, and it's remarkably stable, no matter how much cargo it's carrying. Here's a picture of one: http://yubaride.com/Images/mundo_red_800.gif
Here's some more: http://www.xtracycle.com/models.php#complete
When you put the two trends together, you get an electric-assist longtail - a bike easier to ride than an unpowered bike, and capable of being used for light hauling. It can replace many of the short trips you make with a car.
At present, longtail bikes are available from several vendors in the US (but they sell out very quickly, there's usually a waiting list). Kits to add a very capable electric assist to any bike are readily available, though prices are a wee bit steep right now (that'll change as lithium polymer battery costs start coming down). Bottom line is that if you want to be an early adopter, and start using a bike instead of a car or truck for errands and light hauling, you can.
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» I've carried a 40-lb. bag of mulch, flats of flowers, 3 bags of groceries, with no trailer
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: snideelf on Jul 14, 2008 8:20 PM
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Cars with high MPG would pay the least toll.
This might encourage owners of gas guzzlers to buy more fuel efficient vehicles and leave their gas guzzlers at home or for short trips.
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Posted by: mnstra on Jul 15, 2008 12:28 PM
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while reducing visibility.The main satisfaction to driving one is how safe you think you are when you ram drivers of sedans in the rear. It is a giant phallic symbol worthy of psychoanalysis.
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Posted by: modeler on Jul 15, 2008 1:16 PM
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Posted by: rickiey on Jul 16, 2008 10:48 PM
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