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Environment

Population: What to Do When There Are Too Many of Us

By Robert Engelman, Island Press. Posted June 10, 2008.


The author of "More: Population, Nature, and What Women Want" writes that we can tackle a population-induced environmental crisis by empowering women.
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Editor's Note: The following is an excerpt from More: Population, Nature, and What Women Want by Robert Engelman. Copyright 2008 by the author. Reproduced by permission of Island Press, Washington, D.C.

All historical eras are shaped by the material and environmental realities of their time. Our own reflects the adjustments society and nature have made to accommodate the unprecedented 6.7 billion human beings now alive. And those changes are dramatic. The planet is warming dangerously as a result of the heat-trapping byproducts of our daily lives. Half of the primeval forests that existed at the end of the last ice age are gone. A mist of mercury and other toxic metals from coal combustion falls continuously on land and ocean, and to eat fish is to absorb these metals yourself. Half of us are now urban, rarely if ever meeting up with creatures wilder than crows, cockroaches, and, in some cities, packs of feral dogs.

And this is just where we are today, while the beat of growth goes on. Little if any of this would have transpired had human numbers peaked long ago. Such a peak might have occurred by now, even with the gains in life expectancy of the past century, if the status and reproductive intentions of women had found consistent support rather than silence and censure.

Beginning little more than a century ago, social acceptance of contraception began to grow and to spread around the world. That led to dramatic declines in birthrates that gathered force as human population throttled past a few billion. Who knows how much closer we would be to a meltdown of Greenland's ice or the collapse of critical ocean fisheries had this collective wisdom -- a public good derived from individuals acting in their private interest -- not dampened the rise of population? Given the increasingly plausible threat of one or more interacting environmental catastrophes, the slowing of population growth is a triumph of human wisdom and good fortune. This realization is only slowly dawning, however, on the community of journalists and other opinion leaders.

The dominant concerns in many countries about population aging and decline are hardly baseless. These developments may well challenge societies. Populations may have more old people than young for a while, because yesterday's baby boomers are heading toward old age even as young women are having fewer children. Over time, however, extreme age disparities should subside as these large generations pass on, the more so when average fertility returns to close to two children per woman. Assuming it will.

Some demographers, eyeing the stubborn low fertility of women in most of Europe and parts of east Asia, are beginning to wonder if such a return to replacement fertility is possible. Some allude in cautionary tones to the possibility of a "low-fertility trap," a vast pool of demographic quicksand that prevents women from ever returning to replacement fertility once their childbearing average drops below about 1.5 births. There's no real basis for such speculation, however. The world is too dynamic and our experience with intentionally low fertility far too new.

What might eventually unfold is something far more appealing: birth cohorts of consistently equal size across generations. The most demographically stable age structure for a population would be for each year's "class" of babies to be the same size as the one the year before, and ten, twenty-five, or fifty years before. No single age group, young or old, would naturally claim any more of society's attention than any other, at least based on their numbers. That's a population structure worth striving for.

For now, population aging is the inevitable outcome of two of the most positive developments of modern times: longer life spans and the realized intentions of women to have fewer children, later in their lives. Modern views on human rights and equality hardly would have allowed most women to continue giving birth to many more children than they wanted. And populations hardly could have continued growing in the twenty-first century at the same torrid pace as in the middle decades of the twentieth. Some populations had to be the first to experience the leveling off of growth and then decline, and in most cases this has occurred with no significant increases in death rates. That's rare, maybe even unprecedented, in human history.

Today, humanity still grows by 78 million people annually-the rough equivalent of a new Texas, California, and New York each year. Unless death rates rise catastrophically or birthrates plummet far more than anyone expects, the end of world population growth is still decades away. It's reasonable to expect that humanity will grow to 7 billion, 8 billion, or even higher before the number levels off for good reasons or bad.

What dominates our experience in the first decade of the third millennium are the technologies and institutions we have invented, disseminated, tinkered with, and improved over thousands of years to make human life on such scales possible. We've done well. Not only are more people alive than ever, but most of us live longer than our ancestors did. Quite a few of us spend our entire lives in comfort and with tools and toys that those ancestors never could have imagined.


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See more stories tagged with: population, contraception, environment

Robert Engelman is vice president for programs at the Worldwatch Institute. Formerly vice president for research at Population Action International and founding secretary of the Society of Environmental Journalists, he has served on the faculty of Yale University. His writing has appeared in Nature, The Washington Post, and The Wall Street Journal.

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Up to one biological plus adoptions,
Posted by: aouie01 on Jun 10, 2008 1:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone convinced that the world is over populated by humans should seriously consider not having any more children. If about 95% of females have one or fewer biological children, about 4.5% have two, then we may be able to buffer the impact of the others who choose to have several more. One can adopt more children or live in communities where the kids can live and play together.

Unless we can easily expand outside of Earth, or we die in large numbers, not doing more education on limiting our population voluntarily, could result in the application of China-like birth control policies in other parts of the world.

The article didn't address the contribution of animal farming to the rapid deforestation around the world. While wood may have been chopped down for furniture, fuel, etc., the largest contributor to deforestation is animal farming. If we all switched to a primarily vegetarian diet, worked locally (biking distance), and seldom made long commutes on mass public transportation, and used fuel mainly to transport food supplies, then we may be able to sustain our current population (and maybe even many more) without any significant further destruction of the world including all the earthlings. I haven't computed specifics, but am merely extrapolating other's computations.

If and when we tap into the Earth's heat as an energy source and continue to wastefully or extravagantly utilize energy, then global cooling may be much more of a concern than global warming.

Pollutants, are also a serious threat to most life. Just like children most of the animals on Earth explore the world by tasting it. It was sad to read about how some cows in India are dying because of plastic in the garbage.

Sincerely,
Aouie
Sincerely,
Aouie

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» Be clear about this... Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Be clear about this... Posted by: Last Chance
» ....what the???? Posted by: pfeifer999
» RE: ....what the???? Posted by: Libsrule
» RE: ....what the???? Posted by: pfeifer999
» idiocracy.... Posted by: rafaeltoral
» sure, it already is Posted by: pfeifer999
» RE: Are you Posted by: boydranchitos
» yes and no Posted by: pfeifer999
Governments have no interest in population decline
Posted by: blogbooks on Jun 10, 2008 1:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we look to government for leadership in this regard we will get little more than a cold stare back at us. A nation's power stems from its population.

Without a people to rule the king seems rather silly sitting on his throne doesn't he?

This is why we see a panic in the nations that do have a declining population such as Russia and Singapore to name just two. Russia pays rather hefty monthly stipends and bonuses to women that have more than one child Link. Singapore is giving classes in college about how to date Link.

Here's a quote: "We want to tell students: Don't wait until you have built up your career," Yu-Foo Yee Shoon, minister of state for community development, youth and sports, said at a news conference last month. "Sometimes, it is too late, especially for girls."

Seems like a fairly anti-feminist and not environmentally friendly statement doesn't it? Well, get used to it. No government in the world save those with truly massive populations is served by population reduction.

The ruling class needs taxes, young men to send to war, and servants. So this topic much be approached via a sociological avenue. The United States has no population crises and won't in the foreseeable future. In multi-cultural globalist America the ruling class does not care what color its serfs are and we have a steady supply of them coming in from Mexico, India, and elsewhere.

However, in any nation that legitimately has population decline you can be assured that its government will panic and fight it tooth and nail. People are a nation's life's blood.

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» oh sure, just like . . . . . Posted by: pfeifer999
» China Posted by: Sparks56
Empowering women: nice words, vapid sentiment
Posted by: Bobsays on Jun 10, 2008 2:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We hear it all the time: 'if only women in the world were empowered: the birth rate would come down and we wouldn't have this population problem.' But consider this: not all societies will make themselves open to 'empowering women'. Don't believe me? Try looking around the world at Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, most of Africa, parts of central asia, Latin America... it goes on.

And so you are stuck with this conundrum: do we have enough time left to allow another 50 or 100 years of non-empowering cultures and societies to carry on? Or, can we continue on the course we are on where we are trying to introduce these non-empowering cultures into the western world, rolling back our own gains (go anywhere in Europe and you will see the forces of Islam on the rise and that cultures ways becoming the norm)?

The problem with this article is that a) it assumes every woman is a graduate of Yale, b) that the world's women will all become graduates of Yale in ten years' time if we throw enough money at it, c) that there will be no push-back when you try to empower women in traditional societies. All falacies.

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» Empower women and survive Posted by: Last Chance
» "If only we kin . . . . Posted by: pfeifer999
How To Manange The Numbers Within A Fundamental Context?
Posted by: skizum on Jun 10, 2008 2:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A clear result of this era of population growth and pending resource scarcity, is that the models of a predominantly market driven/manipulated economies, whether capitalist, black market and everything else in between, are not sustainable. Our penchant for producing and consuming is pushing us beyond the borders of natural balance; in terms of both our environment and our 'human condition'.

If we ever hope to resolve the unbalanced conditions prevalent in our world we will need to understand the root causes which led to those imbalances.

I believe that the roots of imbalance in the world can be traced back to the elemental issues of human behavior. Human behavior influences virtually everything that happens on planet earth yet, we as individual citizens, understand very little about this fundamental subject.

For the moment, let me define human behavior as the elements of our human nature as influenced by our experiences or nurture. For example, elements of our human nature, like our needs to; be aggressive, to dominate, to resist being dominated, to experience fear as a means of self preservation, to express love or admiration, to seek guidance from powers greater than ourselves, to maintain beliefs, to rationalize and so on.... are influenced by religion, politics, science, cultural preferences, traumatic experience, geographic location, weather, language, etc.

Trying to understand the interaction of all of the permutations of these variables can be mind boggling if looked at as a large system in its entirety. We must find a way to break down this information into easily digestible packets which expose the root/base level fundamental motivations for our actions. Only at this point can we start to address the creation of solutions that may infuse peaceful and truly sustainable strategies into our economic, cultural, legal, environmental and social systems globally.

Currently, the hierarchical goals of most of these power structure systems are rooted in the motivation of small segments of populations to control and dominate resources and the masses. This model ensures security for those in power; this is not unlike the basic behavioral tenant of our animal cousins, especially mammals. Survival of the fittest and so on... where threat and use of lethal force is the ultimate trump card.

So here we are at this very important juncture in human history and health of the planet which sustains us. If we want a future that has more positively balanced attributes, we are going to have to understand what motivates and drives us to behave the way we do before we can find a way to alter that behavior.

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» I Beg to Differ Posted by: skizum
RECIPE FOR POULATION RUEDUCTION
Posted by: mindtrvlr on Jun 10, 2008 3:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HAVE YOU HEARD OF SOYLENT GREEN

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» YES, AND IT WAS . . . . . Posted by: pfeifer999
does the author understand that he is agreeing with the elitist Duke of Edinburgh Prince Phillip
Posted by: Suzon on Jun 10, 2008 4:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when he accepts the argument that there are too many people?

Walter Bagehot, the 19th century author of The English Constitution, blithely condemned the "lower orders" in favor of the "educated ten thousand". This contempt for "common people" is psychologically necessary in order for the elites to continue to keep the rest of us subjugated and oppressed while they treat themselves to the most extravagant and damaging lifestyles.

The problem is not 6.7 billion people but the activities of the top 1%, not least those whose wealth is based upon warfare.

Perhaps the author addresses this at some point (good for him if he has) but time is short and the issue of "overpopulation" is of extreme importance. We must be very wary of buying into it.

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» Wrong again Posted by: Last Chance
» Indeed, the problem is both... Posted by: Last Chance
» Dumbest argument yet Posted by: leafsong1
Read the math in Colin Tudge's THE TIME BEFORE HISTORY
Posted by: navy-vet on Jun 10, 2008 5:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Much of the problem is the pressure of archaic religious and secular political cultures, too inflexible and/or top-down to change rationally. British anthropologist Colin Tudge, tags on an informative (and realistically pessimistic) chapter, "The Next Million Years," at the end of his 1996 book, THE TIME BEFORE HISTORY. Tudge has a few sharp words for those who follow religious edicts rather than good sense (p. 319), and refutes their dogmas with simple arithmetic. (Instead of using Tudge's exponents of 10 I'm showing the mind-boggling zeroes in this quote.):

--------
". . .[T]here are 'pronatalists' who maintain that anyone who seeks to reduce human reproduction must in some sense be 'anti-humanity.' To prevent the birth of possible babies is, they say, to 'deny life.' Some religious people argue, too, that all babies are born 'for the glory of God': and that more babies means more glory.

"Such arguments can be answered even by crude statistics. Suppose, for example, that we do survive the looming demographic crisis; and suppose that our descendants finally decide that a world population of around 1 billion is a reasonable, sustainable target. With such a population there is no reason to doubt that our species could last a million years. In such a case, the human species will enjoy l billion x 1 million = 109 x 106 = 1015 person-years [1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000,000,000].

"But if we allow our population to rise to, say, 20 billion, then we must surely doubt whether we could survive in recognizable form for more than another 10,000 years or so. If we faded after ten millennia, then our total presence through the time still to come will have been a mere 20 billion x 10,000 = 20 x 109 x 104 = 20 x 1013 = 2 x 1014 person-years—at most [20 x 10,000,000,000 x 100,000 = 100,000,000,000,000]. In other words (compare 10,000,000,000,000,000 to 200,000,000,000,000), if we exercise restraint, then the total number of human beings who will have trodden this Earth could be at least five times greater than it would be if we allowed populations to run away with us."
---------

To challenge the self-styled "right to life" people with the bald truth that they are really "anti-life," quote this excellent book. You won't change the hard-heads, but you may get through to some who aren't True Believers. Furthermore, despite Tudge's expertise, I think ten thousand years is an improbably long time span for human survival, except at the lowest level of bare survival. At our current status of decline, this overpopulated world has no more than a hundred years to cure the spread of "humanity cancer." As a mother and grandmother, who worked more than half my career in environmentalism, energy alternatives and medical publishing, this tragic prospect grievously saddens me.

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» dogma disguised as statistics Posted by: pfeifer999
A book well worth reading
Posted by: Last Chance on Jun 10, 2008 5:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the rest of Mr. Engelman's book is like this article, it should be widely read around the World. Then perhaps Mankind will face reality and change his insatiably omniverous lifestyle BEFORE the damage becomes irreversable, hopefully.

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The Earth has a virus
Posted by: lil ole me on Jun 10, 2008 5:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and its us.

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» virus?! Posted by: pfeifer999
Some problems with these optimistic solutions
Posted by: Jasonix on Jun 10, 2008 6:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are three problems with the idea that we can bring population growth under control in time to save the human race from a catastrophic die-off by empowering women economically. They are:

1. Economic growth depends on population growth. Society must have successively-larger generations in order to grow their consumer base and have enough active workers to support the elderly. Europe is spectacularly over-populated, with some of the highest population densities on Earth. Any sane environmental policy by the EU would involve cutting the population of Britain, France, Spain, Germany, and other nations by half within a generation. The low birth-rates of these countries should be celebrated and emulated. Yet, EU nations find themselves compelled to take in immigrants from Middle Eastern and African nations. Because of the ancient cultures of all the nations involved, taking in immigrants is deeply traumatic, much more traumatic for the Europeans than it is for Americans. But because economic growth requires growing populations, Europe has to do this.

2. The economic growth that we've enjoyed for the last few generations has also resulted from the widespread availability of fossil fuels. When there isn't available natural resources, opportunities are hard to come by, regardless of one's education. We're entering a period of scarcity right now.

3. Many societies have cultures that are hostile to women's rights, and are facing drastic population crises in the present. They aren't apt to empower women as a strategy to deal with their problems. In India, for example, many girls are simply aborted in utero. Now that a generation with a high male-to-female ratio has come of age, women are being forced in prostitution, sometimes as "family whores" shared by brothers. Polyandry is almost unheard of in human cultures, and has been practiced mostly in situations where resources are scarce and population must be firmly controlled. Unlike the idealized fantasies of some feminists, polyandry is as deeply abusive and degrading to women as polygamy, perhaps even more so, and as women become a scarce resource in these nations due to sex-selective abortion, the remaining women will be restricted and controlled like a precious resource.

4. This solution takes time. Most of us now realize that we've already wasted the time we have. (Hell, even the song George Michael sang on American Idol, the most candy-coated show on TV, acknowledged that the apocalypse has already begun.)

I don't know what the best solution for bringing human population under control in an age of scarcity is - perhaps it is morally unacceptable for us to pursue any policy other than encouraging birth control and education. That's because any real solution will be effective, immediate, and comprehensive - i.e., a plague or mass starvation. One hopes that whatever Mother Nature cooks up, it'll mostly kill the unintelligent, the insane, the criminal, the gluttonous, and those who did the most to bring this disaster on us all.

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» Islam's tidy solutions... Posted by: Bobsays
» Most women... Posted by: Bobsays
» You're naive at best Posted by: bornxeyed
» X-cellent discussion, X-men! Posted by: morticia
» RE: You're a Luddite at best Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: You're a Luddite at best Posted by: bornxeyed
» QUESTION Posted by: pfeifer999
» RE: It's called Google ;) Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» aaaaahhhhhh Google..... Posted by: pfeifer999
» OOOPSie...... Posted by: pfeifer999
» RE: aaaaahhhhhh Google..... Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: aaaaahhhhhh Google..... Posted by: pfeifer999
» which "old" model? Posted by: pfeifer999
» RE: Definitely agree Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Definitely agree Posted by: pfeifer999
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
Here's a solution...
Posted by: Kcanadensis on Jun 10, 2008 6:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
STOP BREEDING.

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» i did Posted by: ptown
Victrola
Posted by: victrola on Jun 10, 2008 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Emancipate women, emancipate the world. I have been saying this for years and have been sadly ridiculed by misogynist sexists who thought I was just a ranting angry woman. Well, boys, patriarchy IS the problem. Get over it.

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» RE: Victrola Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Victrola Posted by: badkitty68
Ain't it the Truth
Posted by: Purple Girl on Jun 10, 2008 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a woman who has worked as a Breeding Manger in the Horse industry I know Females can control everything related to Reproduction. Not showing Heat- won't get Pregnant. Not enough nutritional resources to sustain a pregnancy, they reabsorb or 'slip' it. They can even Decide when to let their 'water break'-when they feel safe.Hell we've had ones Trying to 'slip' a pregnancy and we interfer by starting Hormones to make them hold on to it- only to have her give birth to a foal with defects who we have to euthanize.
I spent hours when I first started 'foaling out' trying to get a foal to nurse- after becoming annoyed and stepping out for a cigarette to settle My nerves- I returned to find it Nursing.The mare knew exactly what to do to get they baby On. I was getting in the way of her innate ability to do the job nature had aptly given her.
I also have found I tmust allow the Stallion to do his job- ignore her if she is out of heat -no matter what my records and day counting said or Tease the hell out of her because HE knows she is but is being too 'shy' to show.We are NOT Masters Of the Natural World -we are often Wrenches in the Gears.
I am Not a "pro Abortion' advocate, I am a right to control your own reproduction as it relates to your health and situation.
My real activism comes from ending Unwanted pregnancies to begin With! I do not see Abortion as a birth control method, I see it as a last resort.And any one who fails to take steps to avoid a unwanted pregnancy and chooses Abortion as their method is an idiot and frankly vile human being.Same goes for those who claim they are 'against abortions' but do everything to Promote Unwanted pregnancies. Abstinence, No birth control access- they are the Baby Killers- because they are Promoting birth regardless of the situation after birth.Frankly they don't seem to give a shit about life once out of the Womb.so their proclaimed "Right to Life" adage sends me Reeling into Outrage!Not 'ProLife' just "Por Birth' then f*ck ya!
It is Not Abortion which must be Stopped it is Unwanted Pregnancies- Reduce and eliminate those and Poof! there goes the number of Abortions.
I'd be more than open to a discussion similar to 3 strikes and your OUT- Sterilized!that goes for the men who play 'Johnny apple Seed' who impregnant women then Walk away.
Oh we have a desperate need for a real converstion about Reproductive Rights AND Responiblities in this Country.both sides of this 'controversy'need to get a clue!

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» RE: Ain't it the Truth Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Ain't it the Truth Posted by: morticia
» RE: Ain't it the Truth Posted by: pfeifer999
» RE: Ain't it the Truth Posted by: morticia
» RE: Ain't it the Truth Posted by: pfeifer999
» RE: Ain't it the Truth Posted by: morticia
» RE: Ain't it the Truth Posted by: pfeifer999
Power corrupts
Posted by: mtnprivy on Jun 10, 2008 6:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr Engleman,
Given your credentials, I would expect more from you. The premise of your headline is never even mentioned until the last paragraph, and then it is not validated with any evidence whatever.
I understand that YOU FEEL as though our sense of equality is a good thing, and it is. This in no way solves the problem of human population numbers.
At least the vile eugenics crowd and all their ilk were able to grasp the seriousness of our stranglehold on the planet, and how we are choking off its life energy. It is hard to imagine a method of achieving reasonable human numbers and a healthy planet, without some form of policy that will offend someone.
Perhaps you have not run head-first into the "biological clock" of procreation like many of us have. You have no convincing evidence that "empowering women" (a term you don't define) will do anything more than turn them into even more excessive consumers of our precious resources. Look what that empowerment has meant to men and women of the western world. Where are all those "empowered" men and women who live simple and low consuming lives, because they are "empowered" to do so?
If you really look at the "empowered" you will see nations of Walmart consumers buying and throwing away mountains of plastic and driving SUVs. The really "empowered" are our representatives in the US, and they are monsterous and hideous versions of ourselves, gluttenous to the hilt.

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» RE: Power corrupts Posted by: plantsareneat
» Advertising also corrupts Posted by: Last Chance
It's simple, folks ...
Posted by: monkeywrench on Jun 10, 2008 6:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... If we do not reduce our population, Nature will do it for us -- and the result will not be pretty.

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Too many people............
Posted by: Esplyn on Jun 10, 2008 6:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been saying this for the past thirty or more years. That there must be less population for the species to survive. And over the years this idea, when I mentioned it, has met a great deal of opposition. I am not a scientist or technical genius but merely a sixty year old woman with a high school education and if I can see this why can't others?

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» RE: Too many people............ Posted by: Last Chance
» One man's doomsday.... Posted by: morticia
» RE: One man's doomsday.... Posted by: pfeifer999
» RE: One man's doomsday.... Posted by: morticia
» RE: One man's doomsday.... Posted by: pfeifer999
Scientists are confident?
Posted by: zeofredo on Jun 10, 2008 6:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The remark in this article that "scientists are confident HIV/AIDS started..." hasn't passed unnoticed by this skeptic-- it is worth investigating instead the contrary allegations [care of Rev. Wright] that titillated so many of us recently. In this age of scandalous information being confirmed years after outrageous acts were committed, it is more plausible that AIDS WAS a deliberately perpetrated disease. I'm not fully convinced yet, but this discussion gives much food for thought:
http://www.blackopradio.com/archives2008.html
(see show #376, May 29, 2008)
This is a link for an interview with Professor Donald Scott who wrote 'AIDS: The Crime Beyond Belief'

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First of all, lay off the neo-Malthusian bullshit. Second, learn the real causes and VEDIC Studies.
Posted by: maxpayne on Jun 10, 2008 7:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now, first off, the out of whack population growth is occuring in areas where the fundamentalists, be it in the Muslim or Christian realm, are going out of their ways to push more otherwise peace-loving frugal-minded individuals into full-time gluttons. By spoiling them, they can create the worst and along with the Far Right and Far Left create an artifical case of the so-called upcoming "rapture" or "apocalypse". And we're not even discussing the ongoing blatant human rights abuses in those countries as well as even here since most media outlets throughout this country and the world will rarely allow it. For example, abusive husbands, usually Muslims or Christians with fundie attitudes, force their wives to produce more than 4 children all in the name of trying to prop up their religious population for eventual world domination. Sadly, most of these children are bound to end up in severe poverty or face higher economic and financial risks in their lives. If you don't believe me, visit the nations and see how the Muslims and Christians have been going out on a limb waging wars against other religions except for perhaps Judaism since they've probably found it easier to exploit fundamentalism from it as they have their own religions.

That's not to say that all Christian and Muslims are war mongers. I myself am a white male Christian who always believed in the peace-loving side of understanding other religions and learning the good aspects of them including Christianity and Islam themselves. I am married to an American born Indian American whose parents are from northeastern India. When we went back to visit that region, there were mainly Christian fanatics controlling the education and the territory no different from fanatical Muslim fundamentalists ruining Kashmir. But that's not all. Country after country we visited along with our friends and families, we found that every time peaceful non-violent religions were destroyed completely and replaced with fanatics and even total converts, the countries would be plagued with totally corrupt government officials, "free" trade scams, religious bigotry and persecution along with vandalism and destruction of other religious creations and arts, racism, population growth explosions coupled with increasing poverty, hostile business takeovers, and wars for the scarce resources that empowered all this religious fundamentalism in the first place.

Thankfully, I'm glad we we are able to find a growing number of allies working to preserve and even revive Vedic Studies. What does Vedic Studies have to do with the population mess and how can it help? Take some time off your busy schedules once in a while as well as the tv and internet, relax and take a few deep breaths, and find out. You cannot expect Alternet or Faux Noise to tell you.

PEACE

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Bushes Answer
Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jun 10, 2008 7:10 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dictator Bushes answer is easy, start a new war (invasion) and get a bunch of us killed off.

Ultimate Anonymity

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How to convince teenagers...
Posted by: ptown on Jun 10, 2008 7:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I work with urban teenagers who come from large families (mostly struggling) and have 4-5 siblings. Most of their moms were young moms. Lots of these kids have half-sibs. In the California urban teen culture, young thugs think it's macho to have a few "baby mamas" and girls want as many children as they have brothers and sisters. How do we reach these kids? These children/young adults from families already struggling and quite often on the taxpayers dole, need to be convinced that population is the problem. Maybe some hip-hop artists can get on this anti-growth train and start rapping the virtues of small families saving the planet? We have to start with youth.

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» Why should they? Posted by: dudelette
Eugenics
Posted by: uncleeddie on Jun 10, 2008 7:21 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This guy is just another talking head for the New World Order. Their stated goal is to exterminate 90% of the worlds population down to below 500,000. Hiding behind CIA and Rockefeller fronted organizations people like Engelmen spew out their propaganda to convince people that they are evil and detrimental to the earth. I see he went to Yale. I wonder if he's a bones man like George Bush and John Kerry. The point is that the elites of the world have been and are continuing their eugenics programs and research for over a hundred years. The dream of a superhuman superior to the majority called "useless feeders" continues in secret and in the open through such people as Bill and Melinda Gates and Warren Buffet whose so called Philanthropy is all eugenics based. Overpopulation is hardly a threat compared to these creeps.

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» Please die Posted by: leafsong1
» leafsong1 Posted by: pfeifer999
» Possible Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: Possible Posted by: leafsong1
Scientific Development and Disaster
Posted by: Patriotsthink on Jun 10, 2008 7:24 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't see many of us taking into consideration scientific developments in farming and civil engineering. It's as if no we cannot consider that there will be any other good ideas or inventions in the future. I don't think I've seen any consideration for the impact of natural disasters caused by weather, earthquake, wildfire, disease etc.

I am deeply skeptical in our abilities to project the future or our abilities to wantonly decide who should live or be born. Mankind simply does not have a good track record once we begin down that path. Humans are capable of great kindness as well as blind, misguided and sometimes outright evil behavior.

Go cautiously.

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Free Implanon, Norplant/Jadelle, Intra-uterine Devices, and Sterilization
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Jun 10, 2008 8:05 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As much as I dislike taxes and handouts, the government should provide these things for free to those who want them. Tax breaks in the tax code alone for dependents cost more than these items and procedures.

Arguably no one should be allowed to have more than 2 kids until we manage to sustainably increase our food production and resource production.

A recent study by the U.N. showed that by 2030 food production will need to increase by 50%.

Cue the bulldozing of more tropical rain forest and wildlife habitat driving some species to extinction, species that might contain cures and treatments for all sorts of diseases but in our short-sided quest for more get bulldozed under.

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» You folks need to . . . . . Posted by: pfeifer999
5% of the world's population consumes >25% of the natural resources.
Posted by: non-person on Jun 10, 2008 8:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What country are we talking about?

Every American uses, on average, 100 times the resources of a sub-Saharan African villager.

The real problem is consumer culture, not overpopulation.

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GREED
Posted by: Patriotsthink on Jun 10, 2008 8:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before we begin serious consideration of forced population control, let's consider the impact of human GREED.

People are not so much the problem their nature.

If we gave people growable seed instead of food or cash, they'd be better off. But that isn't economically feasable.

Western societies don't NEED three or for TV's, a constant 72 F degree indoor climate, fast food or multiple cars, but we can so we do. Meanwhile our neighbors need iodine, chlorine, and basic, basic, basic food, clothing and shelter.

Population, shmopulation. It's character control we need.

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» RE: Having children is a form of GREED Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com