COMMENTS: 187
It Isn't Morning in America Anymore -- It's Dusk on Planet Earth
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Even for Americans, constitutionally convinced that there will always be a second act, and a third, and a do-over after that, and, if necessary, a little public repentance and forgiveness and a Brand New Start -- even for us, the world looks a little Terminal right now.
It's not just the economy. We've gone through swoons before. It's that gas at $4 a gallon means we're running out, at least of the cheap stuff that built our sprawling society. It's that when we try to turn corn into gas, it sends the price of a loaf of bread shooting upwards and starts food riots on three continents. It's that everything is so inextricably tied together. It's that, all of a sudden, those grim Club of Rome types who, way back in the 1970s, went on and on about the "limits to growth" suddenly seem how best to put it, right.
All of a sudden it isn't morning in America, it's dusk on planet Earth.
There's a number -- a new number -- that makes this point most powerfully. It may now be the most important number on Earth: 350. As in parts per million (ppm) of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.
A few weeks ago, our foremost climatologist, NASA's Jim Hansen, submitted a paper to Science magazine with several co-authors. The abstract attached to it argued -- and I have never read stronger language in a scientific paper -- "if humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to that on which civilization developed and to which life on earth is adapted, paleoclimate evidence and ongoing climate change suggest that CO2 will need to be reduced from its current 385 ppm to at most 350 ppm." Hansen cites six irreversible tipping points -- massive sea level rise and huge changes in rainfall patterns, among them -- that we'll pass if we don't get back down to 350 soon; and the first of them, judging by last summer's insane melt of Arctic ice, may already be behind us.
So it's a tough diagnosis. It's like the doctor telling you that your cholesterol is way too high and, if you don't bring it down right away, you're going to have a stroke. So you take the pill, you swear off the cheese, and, if you're lucky, you get back into the safety zone before the coronary. It's like watching the tachometer edge into the red zone and knowing that you need to take your foot off the gas before you hear that clunk up front.
In this case, though, it's worse than that because we're not taking the pill and we are stomping on the gas -- hard. Instead of slowing down, we're pouring on the coal, quite literally. Two weeks ago came the news that atmospheric carbon dioxide had jumped 2.4 parts per million last year -- two decades ago, it was going up barely half that fast.
And suddenly, the news arrives that the amount of methane, another potent greenhouse gas, accumulating in the atmosphere, has unexpectedly begun to soar as well. Apparently, we've managed to warm the far north enough to start melting huge patches of permafrost and massive quantities of methane trapped beneath it have begun to bubble forth.
And don't forget: China is building more power plants; India is pioneering the $2,500 car, and Americans are converting to TVs the size of windshields which suck juice ever faster.
Here's the thing. Hansen didn't just say that, if we didn't act, there was trouble coming; or, if we didn't yet know what was best for us, we'd certainly be better off below 350 ppm of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. His phrase was: "if we wish to preserve a planet similar to that on which civilization developed." A planet with billions of people living near those oh-so-floodable coastlines. A planet with ever more vulnerable forests. (A beetle, encouraged by warmer temperatures, has already managed to kill 10 times more trees than in any previous infestation across the northern reaches of Canada this year. This means far more carbon heading for the atmosphere and apparently dooms Canada's efforts to comply with the Kyoto Protocol, already in doubt because of its decision to start producing oil for the U.S. from Alberta's tar sands.)
We're the ones who kicked the warming off; now, the planet is starting to take over the job. Melt all that Arctic ice, for instance, and suddenly the nice white shield that reflected 80% of incoming solar radiation back into space has turned to blue water that absorbs 80% of the sun's heat. Such feedbacks are beyond history, though not in the sense that Francis Fukuyama had in mind.
And we have, at best, a few years to short-circuit them -- to reverse course. Here's the Indian scientist and economist Rajendra Pachauri, who accepted the Nobel Prize on behalf of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change last year (and, by the way, got his job when the Bush administration, at the behest of Exxon Mobil, forced out his predecessor): "If there's no action before 2012, that's too late. What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future. This is the defining moment."
In the next two or three years, the nations of the world are supposed to be negotiating a successor treaty to the Kyoto Accord. When December 2009 rolls around, heads of state are supposed to converge on Copenhagen to sign a treaty -- a treaty that would go into effect at the last plausible moment to heed the most basic and crucial of limits on atmospheric CO2.
If we did everything right, says Hansen, we could see carbon emissions start to fall fairly rapidly and the oceans begin to pull some of that CO2 out of the atmosphere. Before the century was out we might even be on track back to 350. We might stop just short of some of those tipping points, like the Road Runner screeching to a halt at the very edge of the cliff.
More likely, though, we're the Coyote -- because "doing everything right" means that political systems around the world would have to take enormous and painful steps right away. It means no more new coal-fired power plants anywhere, and plans to quickly close the ones already in operation. (Coal-fired power plants operating the way they're supposed to are, in global warming terms, as dangerous as nuclear plants melting down.) It means making car factories turn out efficient hybrids next year, just the way we made them turn out tanks in six months at the start of World War II. It means making trains an absolute priority and planes a taboo.
It means making every decision wisely because we have so little time and so little money, at least relative to the task at hand. And hardest of all, it means the rich countries of the world sharing resources and technology freely with the poorest ones, so that they can develop dignified lives without burning their cheap coal.
That's possible -- we launched a Marshall Plan once, and we could do it again, this time in relation to carbon. But in a month when the President has, once more, urged us to drill in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, that seems unlikely. In a month when the alluring phrase "gas tax holiday" has danced into our vocabulary, it's hard to see (though it was encouraging to see that Clinton's gambit didn't sway many voters). And if it's hard to imagine sacrifice here, imagine China, where people produce a quarter as much carbon apiece as we do.
Still, as long as it's not impossible, we've got a duty to try. In fact, it's about the most obvious duty humans have ever faced.
A few of us have just launched a new campaign, 350.org. Its only goal is to spread this number around the world in the next 18 months, via art and music and ruckuses of all kinds, in the hope that it will push those post-Kyoto negotiations in the direction of reality.
After all, those talks are our last chance; you just can't do this one light bulb at a time. And if this 350.org campaign is a Hail Mary pass, well, sometimes those passes get caught.
We do have one thing going for us: This new tool, the Web which, at least, allows you to imagine something like a grassroots global effort. If the Internet was built for anything, it was built for sharing this number, for making people understand that "350" stands for a kind of safety, a kind of possibility, a kind of future.
Hansen's words were well-chosen: "a planet similar to that on which civilization developed." People will doubtless survive on a non-350 planet, but those who do will be so preoccupied, coping with the endless unintended consequences of an overheated planet, that civilization may not.
Civilization is what grows up in the margins of leisure and security provided by a workable relationship with the natural world. That margin won't exist, at least not for long, this side of 350. That's the limit we face.
Copyright 2008 Bill McKibben
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Posted by: metoo on May 12, 2008 12:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain likes Nuclear, and Hillary likes alterniatives, but since Hillary is History we're going to be stuck with Obama's dirty coal or McCain's waste, hell of a choice don't ya know.
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» What the . . .
Posted by: Scientz
» The connection is obvious.
Posted by: heid
» RE: What the . . .How can you NOT see the connection?
Posted by: Beck
» There is NO SUCH THING AS NUCLEAR WASTE
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: There is NO SUCH THING AS NUCLEAR WASTE
Posted by: yale
» nucléaire est le futur !
Posted by: finleyd
» RE: nucléaire est le futur !
Posted by: yale
» RE: right
Posted by: Gibsongirl
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Posted by: NoPCZone on May 12, 2008 1:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder if anybody has run the math on how significant an effect this will have.
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» Demand destruction doesn't help if people switch to even worse fuels
Posted by: Hans B
» RE: This isn't my understanding of wood heat or kerosene.
Posted by: Beck
» Terminal forests are carbon-neutral, burning trees may not be.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Demand destruction doesn't help if people switch to even worse fuels
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Demand Destruction
Posted by: Spock
» One seems to think, but is really not.
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: skizum on May 12, 2008 2:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the meantime, it might be a good idea to initiate a few other simultaneous campaigns to help us understand and adjust our behavioral patterns so that we can start to create a truly sustainable world.
I'd also like to post 350.org on a new forum being created to showcase great conceptual thinking.
My only hope is that we don't have to get burned too badly before we learn 'hot'...perhaps. that is what it will take ultimately motivate us into action.
If you are reading this, please help spread the word; our lives really do depend on this. The most effective way to get these ideas to sink to take root in the mainstream will be through repetitive messaging on a grass roots level.
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» RE: 350 has the guts to say "trains an absolute priority and planes taboo"
Posted by: CTvoter
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Posted by: williameon on May 12, 2008 5:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can we solve The Climate Change Problem? without making important Political Change First?
Changes like:
Addressing the problem?
Signing Treaties?
Changing our Direction and Priorities?
They are all question marks now with the
Polluter's in Control
Eliminate the influence Polluters have over our Government.
Stop Privatization.
Close the Revolving Door
Focus on Conservation, Efficiency, Renewable Energy and Ending our Fossil Fuel Addiction.
Where can the most good be done?
Stopping the WAR would stop wasting resources.
Oil will drop by HALF!
If they start Bombing Iran
Oil will go up to $200 DOLLARS a BARREL! And
Talk about Pollution?
The American Military is the Worlds Biggest Polluter.
We are still #1 in something.
While Humanity gets flushed out the window.
$7 Dollars a Gallon at the pump.
Take about the economy being Dead in the water.
Dead Eye and The Shrub are stealing every last Nickel they can get.
They are determined to drain the last drop of BLOOD out of the Iraqi sand and American People.
They swear no allegiance to God or Country.
They are Corpirates
Part of a False Flag Operation
America has been Hi-Jacked by
Corpirates.
Chimp/Chainey
Oil soaked Chicken Hawks!
Part of the
Halliburton/Carlyle Junta
They fly:
The Skull and Bones
Sellouts to the Highest bidder.
Defenders of The Aristocracy sworn to Secrecy and GREED.
How do we stop them?
Shut the WAR down.
Strengthen Pollution Law.
Kicking the Polluter’s Lobbyists out of Washington
Stop the Graft
Breaking the control
The Dirty Fossil Fuel Pushers have over US by
KICKING OIL!
Freeing the Media from their Control.
Provide the information and facts
Instead of Propaganda and Fluff.
Take the Money out of politics and
Put Sanity back in.
Reinstitute: The Bill of Rights, Constitution and Declaration of Independence.
Revoke the Unpatriotic Act.
SURGE
PURGE
&
REBOOT!
Put the common People back in charge instead of:
Corpirate Spooks, Snooks, Clowns and Crooks.
Level the playing field.
Publicly finance all elections
Broaden representation in our Government by including everyone, making room for more and different Voices/Parties.
There are plenty of good examples out there to emulate.
Take the best of what we have and the best of what the World has to offer and change our System of Government for the better.
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Posted by: H.R. Chuckn'stuff on May 12, 2008 5:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read this:
James Lovelock in the Daily Mail.
We're all doomed! 40 years from global catastrophe - and there's NOTHING we can do about it, says climate change expert"
According to the climate change scientist James Lovelock, this is the beginning of the end of a peaceful phase in evolution. By 2040, the world population of more than six billion will have been culled by floods, drought and famine. Lovelock believes it is too late to repair the damage. Government targets are "futile". Britain contributes such a tiny amount of emissions compared with countries such as China that our self-regulatory measures are pathetic.
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» RE: CO2 reduction is fuitile is one version
Posted by: Mimi
» RE: CO2 reduction is fuitile
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» Of course we can make a difference.
Posted by: heid
» RE: CO2 reduction is fuitile
Posted by: prieten
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Farasien on May 12, 2008 5:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only way anything is going to really change is to have a French-style revolution first. Until the heads of the money men are literally rolling in the streets and the blood of the Bastards who killed the soul of this and all other nations is running in the gutters where it belongs, we're getting more of the same.
And to them, if that means the world burns, so be it. There will always be some kind of business, even if its in the sale of coffins.
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» RE: When are people going to wake up?
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» It's Not Just The Rich
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
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Posted by: uncleeddie on May 12, 2008 5:53 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Big Oil Gore. It's about the Carbon Tax Stupid. If the focus goes onto taxing Corporate profits and not a carbon tax then the issue will die along with all the CO2 chicken littles. Just open your mind and view objectively the famous ice core analysis from an Inconvenient Lie and superimpose the CO2 graph over the temperature graph. Then you must eat crow like I did and realize temperatures on average rose 400-800 years ahead of CO2 rising by the same levels. Repeat temperatures rose BEFORE CO2 levels. Thus the HOAX that man is strictly to blame for temperature rise.
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» If temps rose BEFORE CO2, why should we contribute?
Posted by: Beck
» RE: If temps rose BEFORE CO2, why should we contribute?
Posted by: uncleeddie
» RE: CO who?
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: CO who?
Posted by: uncleeddie
» RE: CO who?
Posted by: particle
» CO2 warming is a fact
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: CO who?
Posted by: Spock
» RE: CO who?
Posted by: uncleeddie
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FrogHollow on May 12, 2008 5:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"It's that gas at $4 a gallon means we're running out, at least of the cheap stuff..."
How did We Get Here?
Back in the 1960's and 1970's when environmentalist proposed the deployment of “alternative energies” and "tough conservation standards on auto and plant emissions" they were meet with catcalls and ridicule by conservative and right-wing ideologues. These proposals were meet with insults such as “Hippie energy,” “Moonbeam madness,” or “enemies of our way of life,” with the charge of “anti-Americanism,” and “anti-capitalism” labels.
President Carter wanted to increase funding for new technologies with lower omission requirements for autos. These needed policies were shouted down.
The Reagan years saw all such proposals blocked ideologically with funding cuts in the Federal budget and with constructive alternatives ignored by government, the corporate media, and in the public discourse.
During the Herbert Bush and Clinton presidencies it was more of the same but with much greater pretense and phony concern.
And then, the bed rock ideological opposition of George W. Bush (Dick "the great white hunter" Cheney), and the Republican dominated Congress, by the Oil Lobbyist, and by successful conservative movement of Stone Age reaction that combines -all worked together to prevent new alternatives to fossil fuels – they also exercised and exhibited their Neanderthal essence.
As a result of the policies promoted by the Republican Party, the Oil Gang, the Conservative pundits, public research into new forms of energy was actively delayed, -it was blocked and condemned: the development and deployment of new energy sources and new technologies were held back-while sane people had to listen to the conservative chants and their verbal voodoo economics about "the glory" of “Free Market Competition” (thus government was assigned no role, regulation of omissions considered taboo). These groups did this in order to RETARDED AMERICA'S ENEGERY SECTOR, to hold back new technologies, and to gain self-interested control OF THE ECONOMY via conservative government, global corporate control of petroleum production, tax, trade, and banking policy.
FOUR DECADES HAVE BEEN LOST. Jimmy Carter, Jerry Brown, Ralph Nader, the “hippies,” the environmentalist and New Age-ers had correctly sized -up reality while the Conservative Ideologues got away with steadily damaging our country and its' future.
We are now paying the price at the gas pump for the dominance of these Stone- Age Thinkers. Today, global Petroleum corporations have a monopoly ( brought about by constant “deregulation,” Government retreat, and by an expansion of corporate “tax loopholes, credits, and rebate tax policies (carry back and carry forward provisions, foreign sales exemptions, etc., etc.,) and by a selective advantage in government for petroleum and coal producers ( basically for their owners, CEO s, stock holders and with astronomical gain flowing to speculators)
These New World Global PIRATES currently control
the price of crude oil,
the price per-barrel,
the profits attained after refinement,
the profits from distribution,
the wholesale supply and whole sale price per gallon,
and they control of retail supply and retail pricing.
Welcome to unchained economy of market greed, to Rush Limbaugh's speculative casino world and to unrestrained dominance of global and finance capitalism:
welcome to the coming of $5 per gallon, and salutatory greetings to the glory of unending price gouging by the Petroleum Gangsters.
>A.Z. Arrow
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» RE: It's that gas at $4 a gallon means we're running out, at least of the cheap stuff
Posted by: uncleeddie
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Posted by: FrogHollow on May 12, 2008 5:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The global corporations have their hands in your purse, in your wallets, and in your savings account. They use their myth about the goodness of market capitalism along witj practical measures to control, monopolize, and gain by a tax on your salary via a constant rise in the cost of living. These corporations take their profit off the top and create wealth through theft. They have their idol worshipers and a fall back to a conservative mentality that lets them get a way with it. Their lobbys purchase their will in Congress. The Bush administration is made up of ex-oil CEOs.
Americans must demand total price controls and tight regulation on the price of gasoline, heating and diesel' fuel for the sake of consumers.
We must use our government and Constitution to fight and to destroy the global petroleum gang if we are to survive and thrive as a people and as a nation.
.A.Z. Arrow
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Posted by: FrogHollow on May 12, 2008 6:00 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HOW TO STOP PRICE GOUGING AT THE PUMP AND FIND NEW SOURCES OF ENERGY
I filled my car yesterday for a $3.66 per gallon.
I ASK YOU TO think back to when a gallon of gasoline was $1.50 at the pump. It was not that long ago Do you recall a single major oil producer or global petroleum corporation going bankrupt because they lacked income, or could not make enough money at a $1:50 per gallon? No.
Locally, Home heating oil is now l sold at $3.95 per gallon (I use wood heat).
The petroleum industry and global oil producers will never regulate themselves. They are bent on ever grander price gouging.
The excuse made by the talking heads and mouthpieces for the petroleum corporations is that “crude oil has risen to near $100 dollar per barrel.” Like I give a hoot, since the petroleum corporations set those monopoly prices in the first place. They are simply PRICE GOUGING and using this excuse as camouflage for their greed.
We fill up, they drain dollars.
The oil companies made BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN PROFIT when gasoline was sold at $1.50, and when Heating Oil was priced at $2.00 per gallons. At the time, they did not go bankrupt and their tax filings indicate that they made billions of dollars in profit.
Further, no matter how high, or how low, the cost per barrel it does not put money into my pocket. IT IS SIMPLY NECESSARY SPENING REQUIRED TO RUN MY CAR. And as I watch the price of gas climb I know, because it was whispered into my ear by my empty wallet that the oil corporations will prosper and profit no matter what the price. That's why they call it 'Black Gold”.
Yesterday, the gas pump sang me a song about gouging with a chorus humming “astronomically expensive.”
I have heard a rumor that some people want even higher prices so as to force “conservation of fuel.” (I can't walk that far.) So I suspect that they must own stock. I do not. And I consider that perspective ridiculous because it would force me to never go anywhere by auto, and believe that increased price for gasoline can only be realistic for people with incomes larger than mine.
THE PRICE OF GASOLINE IS TOO HIGH!
A Workable Government Solution for Consummers:
a Value added tax on price gouging monopoly corporations at 100% above a reasonable price.
The oil companies made BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN PROFITS when gasoline was sold at $1.50, and when Heating Oil at $2.00 per gallons. They did not go bankrupt Back then they were rolling in money.
So, tax every cent over $1.50 per gallon at 100%. Tax every cent over $2.00 per gallon for heating fuel at 100%.
The revenue generated by this tax on price gouging could then be shifted to a trust fund and used for research and development of new alternative sources of energy such as Black light Plasma, cars that burn salt water as fuel, or electricity generated from solar, tidal, magnetic, biomass, wind, and water energies, or by cold fusion.
The revenues collected on the tax on diesel fuel would provide truckers a direct rebate ( a fund distribute directly to the drivers themselves rather than siphoned-off by shipping corporations or dispatchers).
And added to my proposal above:
Diesel fuel is now over $4 per gallon.This causes price increases throughout the entire economy.
Thus: A needed %100 percent Tax on diesel fuel and revenue collected would provide truckers with a direct rebate ( a fund distribute directly to the drivers themselves rather than tax code allowances currently siphoned-off by shipping corporations or dispatchers) Give every cent per gallon of diesel fuel above A FAIR MARKET PRICE ($2.00 per gallon) back to truck drivers as an income rebate or subsidy.
~Arrow
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» RE: Price of gasoline
Posted by: kiatoa
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Posted by: Last Chance on May 12, 2008 6:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: educing population won't work, either. At least not for many decades.
Posted by: leemiller38
» RE: educing population won't work, either. At least not for many decades.
Posted by: Last Chance
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Posted by: grmartin on May 12, 2008 6:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: bozhidar on May 12, 2008 6:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
perhaps every aspect of our infinitely-valued nature ought to be changed for better.
thus structure of governance must also change; it being possibly the most important actor/factor for our well-being.
our wishful thinking along with our fears is also a mere part of one reality in which each aspect of it is connected with each other aspect.
how to change, let's say, canadian structure of governance? we could vote for socialists instead for politicians who represent the plutocrats.
just like in US, we in canada also have a plutocratic rule. and most or all plutocracies are extremely warlike.
we could also buy less; thus putting pressure on middle class to join us in the struggle to obtain a better rule.
swiss have the best rule. thank u.
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on May 12, 2008 6:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2) Provide major subsidies and tax breaks to any family that is energy-independent as part of a major government-led marketing campaign aimed at explaining the severity of the global warming and pollution problems.
3) Provide major subsidies and tax breaks to solar PV and thermal manufacturers, wind turbine manufactures, battery manufactureres, and organic and sustainable farmers. Halt all subsidies to coal, petroleum, natural gas and nuclear.
4) Begin phasing out all energy import to the Unites States, including from Canada and Mexico, as the world's biggest infrastructure construction project begins.
Oh, I guess we'll let Japan and Germany do all that, huh?
Stupidity and greed - those are the defining qualities of the current "leaders of American society", whether they are in the government, the media, academics, finance and industry, or whatever.
Did Prozac kill the dream, or was it indifference?
Same thing, actually.
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» nr 1: stop population growth nr 2: sustainability as main value
Posted by: stilldreaming
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Posted by: opmoc on May 12, 2008 6:57 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. Modest Global Warming, at least up until 1998 when a cooling trend began, has been real.
3. CO2 is not a significant greenhouse gas; 95% of the contribution is due to Water Vapor.
4. Man's contribution to Greenhouse Gasses is relatively insignificant. We didn't cause the recent Global Warming and we cannot stop it.
5. Solar Activity appears to be the principal driver for Climate Change, accompanied by complex ocean currents which distribute the heat and control local weather systems.
6. CO2 is a useful trace gas in the atmosphere, and the planet would actually benefit by having more, not less of it, because it is not a driver for Global Warming and would enrich our vegetation, yielding better crops to feed the expanding population.
7. CO2 is not causing global warming, in fact, CO2 is lagging temperature change in all reliable datasets. The cart is not pulling the donkey, and the future cannot influence the past.
8. Nothing happening in the climate today is particularly unusual, and in fact has happened many times in the past and will likely happen again in the future.
9. The UN IPCC has corrupted the "reporting process" so badly, it makes the oil-for-food scandal look like someone stole some kid's lunch money. They do not follow the Scientific Method, and modify the science as needed to fit their predetermined conclusions. In empirical science, one does NOT write the conclusion first, then solicit "opinion" on the report, ignoring any opinion which does not fit their predetermined conclusion while falsifying data to support unrealistic models.
10. Polar Bear populations are not endangered, in fact current populations are healthy and at almost historic highs. The push to list them as endangered is an effort to gain political control of their habitat... particularly the North Slope oil fields.
11. There is no demonstrated causal relationship between hurricanes and/or tornadoes and global warming. This is sheer conjecture totally unsupported by any material science.
12. Observed glacial retreats in certain select areas have been going on for hundreds of years, and show no serious correlation to short-term swings in global temperatures.
13. Greenland is shown to be an island completely surrounded by water, not ice, in maps dating to the 14th century. There is active geothermal activity in the currently "melting" sections of Greenland.
14. The Antarctic Ice cover is currently the largest ever observed by satellite, and periodic ice shelf breakups are normal and correlate well with localized tectonic and geothermal activity along the Antarctic Peninsula.
15. The Global Warming Panic was triggered by an artifact of poor mathematics which has been thoroughly disproved. The panic is being deliberately nurtured by those who stand to gain both financially and politically from perpetuation of the hoax.
16. Scientists who "deny" the hoax are often threatened with loss of funding or even their jobs.
17. The correlation between solar activity and climate is now so strong that solar physicists are now seriously discussing the much greater danger of pending global cooling.
18. Biofuel hysteria is already having a disastrous effect on world food supplies and prices, and current technologies for biofuel production consume more energy than the fuels produce.
19. Global Warming Hysteria is potentially linked to a stress-induced mental disorder.
20. In short, there is no "climate crisis" of any kind at work on our planet.
linked text
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» Because you use insults and give no personal credentials, there's no reason to believe you
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Because you use insults and give no personal credentials, there's no reason to believe you
Posted by: uncleeddie
» Jim Henson Created The Muppets. I apologise if you find my poor joke offensive...
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: Some FACTS About Climate Change That Contrast With This Muppet's Nonsense
Posted by: uncleeddie
» opmoc is working for the coal industry.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» And you're working for the nuclear industry...
Posted by: brunowe
» NO I am NOT working for the nuclear industry...
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» No I am not working for the coal industry.
Posted by: opmoc
» let's consume and multiply as usual?! Really?
Posted by: stilldreaming
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kungfoofighterx on May 12, 2008 7:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It will be crazy when as a tourist one will see people so fat they have to drive around the grocery store in a motorized chairs because they are too weak to support their fat bodies in rural India or China. I imagine what they must think when they come to the USA and see this.
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Posted by: Jean Siracusa on May 12, 2008 7:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am appalled that some of my fellow colleagues appear to be as ignorant of these issues as are these students, especially those in the sciences who seem to have no idea of the swiftness and consequences of the warming of our earth and the relationships of our consumption and food production habits to the problems our planet faces today. The actions of these professionals who are financially capable of purchasing what they want indicate that they have become prodigious consumers unaware that their actions are contributing to a problem that they superficially understand.
I wonder whether new teachers and other professionals merely learned differently with a lesser emphasis about real science, life, a work ethic, health, food production, and the interconnectedness of those elements with the other non-human forms of life on earth, that, therefore, they teach and work from a narrower perspective.
I am perplexed that so many people have little or no idea of most critical issues, and wonder if it is because these issues are misrepresented in the mainstream media or not discussed at all.
My students tell me every semester that they learned more in my class than in all the other classes they have taken. Many of these students are non-science majors who take my class to fulfill a science requirement. I understand that I have made a difference in their lives, and also in those whom these students communicate with. What seems impalpable to me is that the mainstream media including public stations do not engage in truthful investigative reporting or stand up for what they believe. It is imperative that dignity and honesty return to the mainstream media, so that we can become an informed society and begin to solve a few of the many problems facing humanity today.
I applaud and am thankful to those who are working toward change but I am beginning to feel that there is so much at stake and so much to lose that my efforts are miniscule in proportion. We are trying to speak to a superficially motivated population who has no clue that they are on a freight train heading toward a cliff at 1000 miles an hour, because their information is brought to them by a corrupt media controlled by big business to gain political favors and huge profits. Watching television is a passive activity where people learn what they should eat, drink, wear; what drugs to take and why, and all of the other flawed superficial trite drivel that is classified as entertainment on this medium.
Long ago, I chose to do what I could that would make a difference somewhere, however insignificant because I believed that we could change the world if everyone made small contributions locally in their communities. There are many who are doing this today, and if we can increase awareness in mainstream America as contributors of these related articles have, we may have an opportunity to restore our planet and make it habitable for all life.
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» RE: Perplexed
Posted by: leemiller38
» RE: Perplexed
Posted by: Jean Siracusa
» RE: Perplexed,about Media
Posted by: ibzear2
» how do you explain disinterest in overpopulation & limits to growth?
Posted by: stilldreaming
» RE: how do you explain disinterest in overpopulation & limits to growth?
Posted by: Jean Siracusa
» RE: how do you explain disinterest in overpopulation & limits to growth?
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: how do you explain disinterest in overpopulation & limits to growth?
Posted by: stilldreaming
» RE: how do you explain disinterest in overpopulation & limits to growth?
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: "my efforts are miniscule in proportion"
Posted by: PaulK
» Not to worry
Posted by: civilsociety
Comments are closed-
Posted by: crazy carlos on May 12, 2008 8:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
VIA PERU OR ECUADOR--THE MOUNTAIN ICE THERE IS RAPIDLY MELTING--THAT WATER IS THE LIFE BLOOD OF BOGOTA,QUITO,LIMA AND SANTIAGO. EXCEPT FOR QUITO, ALL ARE CITIES OF 5M+ people. THIS CONDITION EXISTS IN DOZENS OF PLACES AROUND THE WORLD--THEY SURVIVE ON GLACIAL WATER. THE TOOTH FAIRY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. GUESS WHO THAT LEAVES??
IF THE TIME LINE OF 2012 IS ACCURATE, (WHICH SIX DEGREES ALSO USES)THEN WE ARE WAY TOO LATE. MY THOUGHTS ARE TO DETERMINE WHERE THE METHANE RISK IS HIGHEST AND TRY AND CAPTURE IT, LIQUIDIFY IT LIKE NATURAL GAS (CURRENTLY BEING DONE)AND PERHAPS AT LEAST MINIMIZE THE POTENTIAL OF A REPEAT OF WHAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED TO THE DINO'S 65 MILLION YEARS AGO PLUS IT DOES TEMPORIARLY SOLVE THE IMMEADIATE "PEAK OIL" PROBLEM. 6.5 BILLION PEOPLE ONA PLANET THEY HAS A CARRYING CAPACITY OF MAYBE 2.5 BILLION IS A RECEIPE FOR DIASTER. (THE PLANET WENT FROM APPX. 2.5 BILLION TO OUR CURRENT SIZE IN LESS THAN A CENTURY) TO DO NOTHING IS TO KISS OUR ASSES GOODBYE. IN THIS REGARD SPECIAL KUDOS TO CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM FOR THE BENEFICIAL PREACHINGS OF GO FORTH AND MULTIPLY.
CRAZY CARLOS
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» Are you planning to fly there?
Posted by: heid
» RE: Are you planning to fly there?
Posted by: crazy carlos
» RE: Are you planning to fly there? Thank you.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: POPULLUTION
Posted by: uncleeddie
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ABetterFuture on May 12, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The decline in the dollar inversely correlates--by necessity--with both an increase of the value of foreign currencies and foreign commodities.
So tell me: how do you impose your carbon-credit schemes, your mandatory CO2 cutbacks, your other "visions for the future"...on sovereign nations? Invade them for their own good? Sorry George, we can't afford another misadventure, thanks to you.
When gas hits $5.00, you're going to see many, many 1976-89 carbuerated hoopties still thumping and twitching to the beat along our city streets get consigned to the scrap heap (there's a lot of fairly expensive scrap metal to be reclaimed in cars before they went with polymers), and you're going to see many, many SUV's get parked.
They'll be getting out of the way for the emergence of the Chinese and Indian driving classes, if current trends hold. Besides, with our ecologically diverse nation, the only thing we would be generally worried about is the release of H2S from sequestration.
That'd be sort of a deal-breaker for mammalian life, not to mention lots and lots of other guys.
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Posted by: Spock on May 12, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» It was H.G. Wells ...
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: The Mongoose Trick - speaking truth to tyranny & tyrants
Posted by: uncleeddie
» RE: We respond more forcefully to far less dangerous risks.
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on May 12, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THE EARTH IS NOT A GREENHOUSE WITH A PLASTIC COVER. IT IS A PLANET WITH AN ATMOSPHERE, SURROUNDED BY A COLD DARK VACCUUM, AND CONSTANTLY BOMBARDED WITH RADIATION.
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» And you assume insults sway people.
Posted by: Beck
» Take a look at "Eighteen hundred and froze to death"
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Take a look at "Eighteen hundred and froze to death"
Posted by: uncleeddie
» RE: Climate Change is for morons and you...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
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Posted by: Last Chance on May 12, 2008 8:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Addicted to growth
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Addicted to growth
Posted by: Last Chance
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Posted by: willymack on May 12, 2008 8:32 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: maxpayne on May 12, 2008 8:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another thing you'll never hear from either the Far Right or the Far Left is the fact that we need to start and continue respecting and learning from people who conserve, reuse, recycle, and even renew what they have. For example, when some of us good people are surrounded by brain damaged wasteful spenders who look down and/or frown upon people who reuse their plastic bags as often as possible, giving a rebuttal is never so easy. Sure, I have no problem counter-attacking by pointing out that we fight wars for oil to keep burning and wasting plastic all the time but how are we going to prevail when we're left to trying to come up with our own strategies for convincing people to save on plastics? The "conservatives" were successful for getting their base to listen and "accept" their reckless ideology.
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» RE: First, improve public transportation and start respecting people who are frugal and conserve.
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 8:49 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
year for each 1000 Megawatts generated for one year. Nuclear plants put ZERO
CO2 into the air. The CO2 cost of building coal vs. nuclear is the same and
negligible. The CO2 cost of mining and transporting coal is large and not
included in the 14.7 MILLION TONS of CO2. The mining and transportation
cost of nuclear fuel is zero since Yucca Mountain is full of fuel that needs to be
reprocessed and put back into reactors. Each 1000 Megawatts of nuclear power
needs so little uranium that you could easily carry an equal weight in a suitcase.
Burning 4 MILLION TONS of coal makes 14.7 MILLION TONS of CO2. As I
have pointed out many times, burning 4 MILLION TONS of coal puts enough
U235 into the air and cinders to fuel a nuclear plant, or enough uranium +
thorium to fuel hundreds of nuclear plants if breeding is allowed. There is no
way to get there from here without nuclear power, like it or not.
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» I have answered every one of your concerns many times. Read.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» Yes I do read the responses and I answer them.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» Here is part of a newspaper story on NUMEC
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on May 12, 2008 8:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This would not only cut CO2 but also NO2 which is a known carcinogen thus we could cut cancer rates as well saving billions in medical costs not to mention lives..
One of the problems with switching to Hydrogen is the availability of fueling stations but in the case of buses which already share a central common hub and parking and fueling depot conversion to hydrogen would be more than simple..!
Then also we could switch city cabs to run on compressed air vehicles which do 65 mph already and run all day on $2.00 worth of compressed air as are built by Ta Ta in India this would also greatly reduce emissions in our major cities and could be done immediately..
To bad our politicians from Obama to Bush to Clinton to McCain to Gore never mention this stuff and are all worthless self serving lying bags of human excrement..!
"So it goes.."
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» RE: Hydrogen Buses in Cities and Compressed Air Cabs..
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: Hydrogen Buses in Cities and Compressed Air Cabs..
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace
» RE: Hydrogen Buses in Cities and Compressed Air Cabs..
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Hydrogen Buses in Cities and Compressed Air Cabs..
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace
» RE: Hydrogen Buses in Cities and Compressed Air Cabs..
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Hydrogen Buses in Cities and Compressed Air Cabs..
Posted by: Knot_Rich
» RE: Hydrogen Buses in Cities and Compressed Air Cabs..
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Hydrogen Buses in Cities and Compressed Air Cabs..
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:08 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Energy policy = environmental policy
because Global Warming
can lead to Hydrogen Sulfide gas coming out of the oceans.
Hydrogen Sulfide gas will Kill all people. Homo Sap will go
EXTINCT unless drastic action is taken.
October 2006 Scientific American
"EARTH SCIENCE
Impact from the Deep
Strangling heat and gases emanating from the earth and sea, not
asteroids, most likely caused several ancient mass extinctions.
Could the same killer-greenhouse conditions build once again?
By Peter D. Ward
downloaded from:
http://www.sciam.com/
article.cfm?articleID=
00037A5D-A938-150E-
A93883414B7F0000&
sc=I100322
....................Most of the article omitted......................
But with atmospheric carbon climbing at an annual rate of 2 ppm
and expected to accelerate to 3 ppm, levels could approach 900
ppm by the end of the next century, and conditions that bring
about the beginnings of ocean anoxia may be in place. How soon
after that could there be a new greenhouse extinction? That is
something our society should never find out."
Press Release
Pennsylvania State University
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, Nov. 3, 2003
downloaded from:
http://www.geosociety.org/meetings/2003/prPennStateKump.htm
"In the end-Permian, as the levels of atmospheric oxygen fell and
the levels of hydrogen sulfide and carbon dioxide rose, the upper
levels of the oceans could have become rich in hydrogen sulfide
catastrophically. This would kill most of the oceanic plants and
animals. The hydrogen sulfide dispersing in the atmosphere would
kill most terrestrial life."
www.astrobio.net is a NASA web zine. See:
http://www.astrobio.net/
news/modules.php?op=
modload&name=News&
file=article&sid=672
http://www.astrobio.net/
news/modules.php?op=
modload&name=News&
file=article&sid=1535
http://www.astrobio.net/
news/article2509.html
http://astrobio.net/news/
modules.php?op=modload
&name=News&file=article
&sid=2429&mode=thread
&order=0&thold=0
These articles agree with the first 2. They all say 6 degrees C or
1000 parts per million CO2 is the extinction point.
The global warming is already 1.3 degree Farenheit. 11 degrees
Farenheit is about 6 degrees Celsius. The book "Six Degrees" by
Mark Lynas agrees. If the global warming is 6 degrees
centigrade, we humans go extinct. See:
http://www.marklynas.org/
2007/4/23/six-steps-to-hell-
summary-of-six-degrees-as-
published-in-the-guardian
"Under a Green Sky" by Peter D. Ward, Ph.D., 2007.
Paleontologist discusses mass extinctions of the past and the one
we are doing to ourselves.
ALL COAL FIRED POWER PLANTS MUST BE
CONVERTED TO NUCLEAR IMMEDIATELY TO AVOID
THE EXTINCTION OF US HUMANS. 32 countries have
nuclear power plants. Only 9 have the bomb. The top 3
producers of CO2 all have nuclear power plants, coal fired power
plants and nuclear bombs. They are the USA, China and India.
Reducing CO2 production by 90% by 2050 requires drastic action
in the USA, China and India. King Coal has to be demoted to a
commoner. Coal must be left in the earth. If you own any coal
stock, NOW is the time to dump it, regardless of loss, because it
will soon be worthless.
I have no financial connection to the nuclear power industry.
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
8 May 2008
RealClimate.org
Global Cooling-Wanna Bet?
Filed under: Climate Science — stefan @ 1:55 PM
By Stefan Rahmstorf, Michael Mann, Ray Bradley, William
Connolley, David Archer, and Caspar Ammann
Global cooling appears to be the “flavour of the month”. First, a
rather misguided media discussion erupted on whether global
warming had stopped, based on the observed temperatures of the
past 8 years or so (see our post). Now, an entirely new discussion
is capturing the imagination, based on a group of scientists from
Germany predicting a pause in global warming last week in the
journal Nature (Keenlyside et al. 2008).
Specifically, they make two forecasts for global temperature, as
discussed in the last paragraphs of their paper and shown in their
Figure 4 (see below). The first forecast concerns the time interval
2000-2010, while the second concerns the interval 2005-2015 (*).
For these two 10-year averages, the authors make the following
prediction:
“… the initialised prediction indicates a slight cooling relative to
1994-2004 conditions”
Their graph shows this: temperatures in the two forecast intervals
(green points shown at 2005 and 2010) are almost the same and
are both lower than observed in 1994-2004 (the end of the red line
in their graph).
Figure 4 from Keenlyside et al '08
The authors also make regional predictions, but naturally it was
this global prediction that captivated most newspaper stories
around the world (e.g. BBC News, Reuters, Bloomberg and so
on), because of its seeming contradiction with global warming.
The authors emphasise this aspect in their own media release,
which was titled: Will Global Warming Take a Short Break?
That this cooling would just be a temporary blip and would
change nothing about global warming goes without saying and has
been amply discussed elsewhere (e.g. here). But another question
has been rarely discussed: will this forecast turn out to be correct?
We think not – and we are prepared to bet serious money on this.
We have double-checked with the authors: they say they really
mean this as a serious forecast, not just as a methodological
experiment. If the authors of the paper really believe that their
forecast has a greater than 50% chance of being correct, then they
should accept our offer of a bet; it should be easy money for them.
If they do not accept our bet, then we must question how much
faith they really have in their own forecast.
The bet we propose is very simple and concerns the specific
global prediction in their Nature article. If the average temperature
2000-2010 (their first forecast) really turns out to be lower or
equal to the average temperature 1994-2004 (*), we will pay them
€ 2500. If it turns out to be warmer, they pay us € 2500. This bet
will be decided by the end of 2010. We offer the same for their
second forecast: If 2005-2015 (*) turns out to be colder or equal
compared to 1994-2004 (*), we will pay them € 2500 – if it turns
out to be warmer, they pay us the same. The basis for the
temperature comparison will be the HadCRUT3 global mean
surface temperature data set used by the authors in their paper.
...................article continues..............
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Posted by: Southern Gal on May 12, 2008 9:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Day The Earth Stood Still
Posted by: armorypk
» RE: The Day The Earth Stood Still
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:19 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
probably won't notice the global warming, but in the following
equal span of time, the climate will make up for lost time. The
ENSO is a Pacific Ocean oscillation and that is pretty big, but it is
not global. You are confusing American weather with global
climate. We also know all about Milankovitch cycles. As I have
stated above, Global Warming CAN DRIVE HOMO SAPIENS
TO EXTINCTION. An ice age cannot cause the extinction of
Homo Sap. And we have a very effective means of stopping an
ice age. All we have to do is burn a lot of coal, like we are doing
now. You see, in the 19th century, we did the experiment of
measuring the absorption spectrum of carbon dioxide and a lot of
other gasses. Check out the MIT Wavelength Tables, an
encyclopedic warehouse of spectra. We have already guaranteed
that there will not be an ice age soon. The problem is that we
overshot the mark and we are continuing to overdo it.
Snow is a whole lot easier to deal with than H2S is to breathe.
We can't allow the possibility of the oceans turning hot and sour
and outgassing H2S. H2S is a poison gas. The moisture in your
lungs converts it to H2SO4 [battery acid] and your lungs dissolve.
Not a pleasant way to go.
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:24 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
includes every element in the periodic table. The important
impurities are: URANIUM, ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY,
Antimony, Cobalt, Nickel, Copper, Selenium, Barium, Fluorine,
Silver, Beryllium, Iron, Sulfur, Boron, Titanium, Cadmium,
Magnesium, Thorium, Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium, Chlorine,
Aluminum, Chromium, Molybdenum and Zinc. There is so much
of these elements in coal that cinders and coal smoke are actually
valuable ores. We should be able to get all the uranium and
thorium we need to fuel nuclear power plants for centuries by
using cinders and smoke as ore. Remember that, to get a given
amount of energy, you need about 100 MILLION TIMES as much
coal as uranium. That means the coal mine has to be 100 million
times larger than the uranium mine, not counting the recycling of
nuclear fuel. We can keep our mountains and forests and our
health by switching from coal to nuclear power.
On the order of a Million Chinese die each year because of coal
smoke. Chinese industrial grade coal contains large amounts of
arsenic. Chinese industrial grade coal is sometimes stolen by
peasants for cooking. The result is that the whole family
dies of arsenic poisoning.
I have zero financial interest in nuclear power, and I never have
had a financial interest in nuclear power. My sole motivation in
writing this is to avoid death by H2S gas.
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Posted by: Jfutures on May 12, 2008 9:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THEY ALL TURNED ME DOWN!
Our group didn't make it.
Apparently these national groups don't give any support to local, grass roots groups.
Pity!
John Fritz
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» RE: Jfutures
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Jfutures
Posted by: Last Chance
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:30 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a "spinning reserve" is required in most locations. If you are
running the steam powered generator at the spinning reserve rate,
you may as well use the steam as your energy source and forget
about the wind. Wind turbines are decorations, not sources of
energy for the grid until we have room temperature
superconductors or super batteries. There are special locations
and circumstances where wind energy is useful, but wind cannot
replace coal and nuclear any time soon.
Those windmills are just nuisances that electric companies are
forced to put up with. They aren't really reducing the need for
coal because the wind is too variable. The coal fire has to be kept
burning to maintain a "spinning reserve." There is one and only
one practical way to replace coal fired power plants at the present
time. That one way is nuclear power. Nuclear power works for
base load and nuclear power is clean and safe. Nuclear fuel is
recyclable. There is no such thing as nuclear waste.
We don't have batteries that are good enough and cheap enough to
solve the problem of wind variability yet. We need research into
energy storage and room temperature superconductors. The
research will take an unknown amount of time. We don't have
that time. Batteries and room temperature superconductors
have been under research for a very long time already, so don't
expect any breakthroughs next week.
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» RE: Wind power doesn't work on calm days.
Posted by: yale
» RE: Wind power doesn't work [Yeah Right
Posted by: Squarehead
» Solar is working for me just fine, and anyone can do it.
Posted by: yale
» RE: You need to post this as a new comment, about 19 times each article. . .
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.marklynas.org/
2007/4/23/six-steps-to-hell-
summary-of-six-degrees-as-
published-in-the-guardian
'Six steps to hell' - summary of Six Degrees as published in the Guardian
23 April 07:
1ºC Nebraska ...shortened... These innocuous-looking hills were once desert, part
of an immense system of sand dunes that spread across the Great Plains from
Texas in the south to the Canadian prairies in the north. Six thousand years ago,
when temperatures were about 1C warmer than today in the US, these deserts may
have looked much as the Sahara does today. ....shortened... devastating
agriculture and driving out human inhabitants on a scale far larger than the 1930s
“Dustbowl” exodus.....shortened...
2ºC ....shortened...Two degrees is also enough to cause the eventual complete
melting of the Greenland ice sheet, which would raise global sea levels by seven
metres. ...shortened...
3ºC Scientists estimate that we have at best 10 years to bring down global carbon
emissions if we are to stabilise world temperatures within two degrees of their
present levels. ....shortened... 3C may be the “tipping point” where global
warming could run out of control, leaving us powerless to intervene as planetary
temperatures soar. The centre of this predicted disaster is the Amazon, where the
tropical rainforest, which today extends over millions of square kilometres, would
burn down in a firestorm of epic proportions. ...shortened... Once the trees have
gone, desert will appear and the carbon released by the forests’ burning will be
joined by still more from the world’s soils. This could boost global temperatures
by a further 1.5ºC – tippping us straight into the four-degree world.
....shortened...
4ºC At four degrees another tipping point is almost certain to be crossed; indeed,
it could happen much earlier. ....shortened... hundreds of billions of tonnes of
carbon locked up in Arctic permafrost – particularly in Siberia – enter the melt
zone, releasing globally warming methane and carbon dioxide in immense
quantities. ....shortened...
5ºC ....shortened... methane hydrates. This unlikely substance, a sort of ice-like
combination of methane and water that is only stable at low temperatures and high
pressure, may have burst into the atmosphere from the seabed in an immense
“ocean burp”, sparking a surge in global temperatures ....shortened... . Today vast
amounts of these same methane hydrates still sit on subsea continental shelves. As
the oceans warm, they could be released once more in a terrifying echo of that
methane belch of 55 million years ago. In the process, moreover, the seafloor
could slump as the gas is released, sparking massive tsunamis ....shortened...
6ºC ....shortened... end of the Permian period, 251 million years ago. By the end
of this calamity, up to 95% of species were extinct. The end-Permian wipeout is
the nearest this planet has ever come to becoming just another lifeless rock drifting
through space. ....shortened... most of the world’s plant cover was removed in a
catastrophic bout of soil erosion. Rocks also show a “fungal spike” as plants and
animals rotted in situ. Still more corpses were washed into the oceans, helping to
turn them stagnant and anoxic. ....shortened...
One scientific paper investigating “kill mechanisms” during the end-Permian
suggests that methane hydrate explosions “could destroy terrestrial life almost
entirely”.
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Methane + air = a fuel-air explosive.
At 5 degrees centigrade of warming, there will be enough fuel-air explosions to
make an all-out nuclear war look like a picnic. Homo Sapiens will have a hard
time not going extinct. Very few people will survive this time. Is it beginning to
sink in how desperate we are? The Siberia methane positive feedback is
beginning to take control out of our hands. Really draconian measures are
required NOW. Remember everything I have posted in comment to previous
articles? I have to re-post them because thoughtcriminal didn't get the message.
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
trillion small disks deflect enough sunlight to cool the planet? Astronomer Roger
Angel proposes to find out.
http://www.astrobio.net/
news/modules.php?op=
modload&name=News&file
=article&sid=2309&mode=
thread&order=0&thold=0
[NASA document not copyrighted]
Pies in the Sky: A Solution to Global Warming?
By David Tenenbaum
As the reality of global warming sinks in, the scramble for solutions has begun. In
the mainstream are ideas for energy conservation and non-carbon energy sources
such as wind and nuclear power. Further afield are proposals to recover carbon
dioxide spewed out by power plants.
Much more speculative are some ambitious plans for high-tech parasols to block
sunlight before it reaches this planet. At the NASA Institute for Advanced
Concepts (NIAC) meeting last fall, Roger Angel, an astronomer and optics expert
at the University of Arizona, produced a highly detailed – and highly futuristic --
proposal for a sunshade huge enough to cut incoming sunlight by 1.8 percent.
That, he says, should counteract the warming expected from a doubling of
atmospheric carbon dioxide.
Angel’s plan builds on an early design by James Early of Lawrence Livermore
National Laboratory, but it slims the mass down from 100 million tons to 20
million tons – something that, he says, conceivably could be launched from Earth.
Angel does not consider solar sunblock the optimum choice in the struggle against
global warming, but rather a fallback position “if things get seriously bad.” If, for
example, ice starts sliding faster from Greenland than expected, sun shields “may
be a useful idea” to prevent vast coastal flooding.
The Early concept calls for a giant sun-shield near the L1 Lagrange point, about
1.8 million kilometers (about 1.2 million miles) above Earth. Here, the gravity of
Earth and sun balance, enabling a shield to remain stationary for years.
Angel suggests that the shield, covering an area of 4.7 million square kilometers
(slightly smaller than the area of the continental United States west of the
Mississippi River), would be best made as a cloud of 16 trillion free-flying circular
refractors, each 0.6 meter (2 feet) in diameter. . Each refractor would be about 5
microns thick and weigh 1.2 grams. The refractors would be launched in stacks
and then deployed upon reaching the target zone.
At every stage, Angel has proposed high-technology solutions to staggering
challenges. He would launch the refractors to escape velocity with an
electromagnetic coil gun, which propels a missile based on electromagnetic
repulsion, then propel them to L1 with ion thrusters using argon as fuel. Once in
place, each disk would sense its position using hyper-miniature cameras that detect
sun and Earth. Adjustable trim tabs (tiny mirrors) catch solar radiation pressure as
needed to maintain the disk’s correct orientation and position in space.
If the disks had reflective mirror surfaces, they would quickly be pushed toward
Earth by solar radiation pressure, so they will be designed to refract (bend)
sunlight, not reflect it. Since they would make only a small deflection, the disks
would evade most of the radiation pressure, Angel says.
He estimates the disks could remain in orbit for at least 50 years, until their solar
cells degraded and they could no longer position themselves.
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Posted by: tommy_slothrop on May 12, 2008 10:13 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: dayahka on May 12, 2008 10:54 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hansen is a True Believing Propagandist
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Hansen is a True Believing Propagandist
Posted by: leemiller38
Comments are closed-
Posted by: estherme on May 12, 2008 11:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gov't is killing us or letting corporations kill us with the GMO's in food,processed foods that gives diseases like diabetes, etc. Fluoride in water & tons of other additives in our food & water. Now our air is killing us & it is not just from CO2 emissions! Does anyone care!!
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 11:09 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to replace the base load capacity of coal.
Read: "Environmentalists for Nuclear Energy", by B. Comby
English edition, 2001, 345 pp. (soft cover), 38 Euros
TNR Editions, 266 avenue Daumesnil, 75012 Paris, France;
ISBN 2-914190-02-6
order from: http://www.comby.org/livres/livresen.htm
Read a review of this book by the American Health Physics Society at:
http://www.comby.org/media/
articles/articles.in.english/
HealthPhysics-NUC-July2002.htm
www.ecolo.org
Association of Environmentalists For Nuclear Energy [EFN]
Nuclear power is 30% cheaper than the coal power we have been
duped into using. We have 5000 years worth of nuclear fuel if
we recycle it rather than waste it as we do now. Nuclear is also
the safest, cleanest and cheapest form of energy available.
The French nuclear power industry is socialized, government
owned. Socialism isn't bad in all cases. Government employees
are good at following rules. To make nuclear power safe and
profitable, the rules must be followed. We can make nuclear
power work for us too. All we have to do is follow the French
example. The French government receives royalties from the
French nuclear power industry. It works for the taxpayers. Of
course the Republicans are afraid of the French model because the
French people pay 30% LESS for their electricity than we pay for
our electricity. France recycles nuclear fuel for many countries, at a profit.
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» RE: All of your nuclear questions are answered in one book
Posted by: fanny666
» "Greenpeace and WWF Funded by the Arabs"
Posted by: PaulK
» RE: All of your nuclear questions are answered [Oh no they ain't
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: HughScott on May 12, 2008 1:59 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the displayed vehicles was a 2006 Jeep STR8 muscle car with 420 horses under the hood.
When I asked the owner why he needed so much power, he said, "For drag racing. With this baby, I can get up to 80 mph in 8.2 seconds on a 1/8 mile strip"
I didn't asked the obvious question -- What kind of gas mileage he got around town? -- for the obvious reason. Clearly he didn't give a damn about conserving energy.
I think the gentleman is typical of most Americans. Otherwise we would have a national speed limit of 55 mph.
REASONS FOR REDUCING HIGHWAY SPEEDS, from various Internet sources:
The ideal speed for gas mileage varies from vehicle to vehicle, but it's generally somewhere in the 40-55 mph range. Mileage generally peaks around 40 mph and starts dropping again around 55 mph.
As speed increases, fuel economy decreases exponentially. If you are one of the "ten-over on the freeway" set, try driving the speed limit for a few days. You'll save a lot of fuel and your journey won't take much longer.
Stay within posted speed limits. Gas mileage decreases rapidly at speeds above 60 miles per hour.
Do 55-60 MPH instead of 65-70 MPH (or higher). The gas mileage improvement from doing this is well documented and very significant.
The sweet spot to get the best gas mileage for any vehicle varies by car.-- generally between 50 MPH and 60 MPH.
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» CORRECTION: "asked" should've been "ask." Sorry.
Posted by: HughScott
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on May 12, 2008 3:37 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These are an incredible waste and huge source of CO2..
The Coal Seam Fires in China are so big they can be seen now from Space..
Coal burns underground needing only 15% of the oxygen it requires to sustain burn above ground..
Much of the pollution in California comes from China it follows the pollution belt and the currents right across the Pacific..
There are Coal Seam fires which produce nothing no heat except in our atmosphere, or steel just burning on almost every continent but in China they are the worst..
A total waste and huge source of both CO2 and Global Warming..
One in Pennsylvania has been burning for over 40 years..!
The technology now exists to put these out which would create jobs..but there is no international pressure being put on China to deal with this threat to our planet and waste and that's why Kyoto was to say the least flawed...
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» RE: Coal Seam Fires in China [The Chinese have environmental,
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fanny666 on May 12, 2008 3:42 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether we are oxidizing hydrocarbons like petroleum or oxidizing carbohydrates like ethanol, we are still oxidizing carbon molecules. This is what needs to stop.
I understand that there is a need to fuel machines which are already designed for combustion power (today's cars, jets, lawnmowers, etc) but what I want to know is how can we help move away from the combustion model altogether?
I know that I'll get flamed for even mentioning it, but there is a reason many environmentalists think that nuclear energy is the answer for now. It does not involve burning things for fuel, the technology is already there, and it immediately replaces oil or coal's energy output without adding any more carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.
If the "climate crisis" really is urgent, then this is what we can do NOW, and work on developing better solar and wind technologies in the meantime.
I will add that I have not yet read anything on nuclear energy that seemed devoid of emotional rhetoric. Everything from "my" side of the political fence strikes me as fear-mongering.
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» RE: Environmentalists for Nuclear energy [Do the math
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: nvironmentalists for Nuclear energy [Do the math
Posted by: Squarehead
» Sources for your numbers?
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Sources for your numbers?
Posted by: Squarehead
» Solar thermal is great... for deserts
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Solar thermal is great... for deserts
Posted by: Squarehead
» My experience is that anti-nuclear power articles are short on specifics and long on emotion
Posted by: fanny666
Comments are closed-
Posted by: williameon on May 12, 2008 3:56 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is upon us.
The Oil Pushers Power is waning.
Their Star is falling.
Soon they will expire
Along with their Fossilized System.
Good Riddance and
Good Bye!
Let the Good Times Roll!
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Posted by: Sparks56 on May 12, 2008 4:21 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The human race had a great run. The good news is that we will leave a detailed record of how we blew off life in the the most beautiful place in the universe. I wonder what those who discover our relics, be they evolutionary or extra-terrestrial, will think of a race that was so smart, and in the end, so stupid.
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» RE: Listen to Rush
Posted by: bifheart
» RE: Listen to Rush
Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Listen to Rush
Posted by: bifheart
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Posted by: hower2b on May 12, 2008 6:50 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Animal on May 12, 2008 9:30 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Not Lifeless
Posted by: Sparks56
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Posted by: mindtrvlr on May 12, 2008 11:30 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: blogbooks on May 12, 2008 11:49 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The upper classes need not worry about 4 dollar gas. They can afford it at 8 or 80 dollars a gallon just the same.
Frankly, it seems clear to me that this sort of thing is already taking place. More of the wealthy/elite are coming on board with the environmental movement. They control the markets and they set the prices.
As a mere average Joe I have to wonder what all this means for me and people like me. Inevitably it must mean a return to an existence of subsistence farming, poverty, ignorance, and misery. Affluence, abundance, wealthy, and happiness are incompatible with the environmentalists vision of the future.
Amusingly enough, all of the efforts in this regard are for naught. India and China are growing at rates that nullify any steps the Western world takes to reduce its environmental impact. All we will accomplish is a reduction in our standard of living.
I'm fairly sure I'll be dead or at least retired before the combined forces of the elite and the environmental movement completely destroy the good life in America. Having grown up in and enjoyed an affluent America at the apex of human civilization, I can say that I'm glad I won't be here to see the return to dirt farming, ignorance, and brutishness that the green left longs to reclaim.
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» RE: The only way for such action to happen in our system is via the markets
Posted by: Sparks56
» You don't know your history. These past few decades have been the greatest in human history.
Posted by: blogbooks
» true ! .. but, sustainability was not a goal, 'limits to growth' a forgotten concept
Posted by: stilldreaming
» RE: You don't know your history. These past few decades have been the greatest in human history.
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: The only way for such action to happen in our system is via the markets
Posted by: yankabroad
» RE: The only way for such action to happen in our system is via the markets
Posted by: yankabroad
» RE: The only way for such action to happen [mixing your Zeroes?
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fanny666 on May 13, 2008 10:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: otto on May 13, 2008 12:14 PM
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» RE: Absolutely my Fellow Steward
Posted by: Purple Girl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 13, 2008 11:26 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
blog-entry/Dan-Ms-Blog/
Cost-Solar-Power/300005422
The Cost of Solar Power From Dan M.'s Blog
by Dan M.
"One source that seems good is solarbuzz.com(1)(2). From the
name, it sounds like a pro solar energy source, but the data seem
to be realistic.
From the first referenced page at this site, we see that residential
costs have dropped 6% to 37.59 cents/kwH, while
commercial/wholesale costs have dropped 0.6% between July
2000 and November 2007 to 21.37 cents/kwH. "
"For comparison purposes, the wholesale price of electricity was
0.06 cents/kwH. "
Dividing the solar cost by the wholesale grid price, we see that
solar power costs 356.2 to 626.5 times as much as electricity from
the wholesale grid. That is during the daytime. At night, the
cost of solar power is much higher because you have to add the
cost of energy storage, the cost of converting the energy to store
it, the cost of converting the energy back, and all of the
inefficiencies. You would be lucky to get 5% efficiency overall
for stored energy, so multiply by at least 20 purely because of
inefficiency. Double or multiply by some larger number the
capital cost to cover the cost of storage. Solar power is
unaffordable at night.
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» RE: The cost of solar power is [Yeah Right!
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Especially compared to Clean, Cheap, Nuclear:) energy:) !
Posted by: Beck
» huh? way too high? Its free!
Posted by: yale
» RE: Paid Lobbist???
Posted by: Purple Girl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 13, 2008 11:32 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
electricity connected to it. That would be a house selling for
$150,000 where I live or about $1 Million in Silicon Valley. A 4-
kilowatt solar photovoltaic system costs about $34,000 according
to http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/environment
/2007-08-26-solar_N.htm.
23 kw divided by 4 kw = 5.75
So to get the required 23 kw we need $34,000 times 5.75.
$34,000 times 5.75 =$195,500
The same source also says: "Like wind power, solar energy is
spotty, working at full capacity an average 20% to 30% of the
time."
To be safe, take the 20% which equals 1/5 th of the time, so we
need 5 times as many solar panels to provide a whole day's worth
of energy. If you include off-peak, the 4 KW is reduced. Then
there are cloudy days, etc. $195,500/(1/5) = $977,500. Now we
see that we really need $977,500 worth of solar panels for our
$150,000 house. But I didn't include batteries, control system,
inverter, transformer, installation cost, building permit, the angle
of the sun at my latitude, energy lost in the batteries and
transistors, perhaps rotating the roof to continually face the sun,
etc. Did I do the computation wrong? Perhaps, but what I came
up with is that just solar panels raised the price of my $150,000
house to $1,127,500. If solar panels were subsidized by the
government, you would have to pay the same price, but you would
pay part of it as taxes.
Let's look at the Roof Area Covered: Solar energy from straight
up doesn't happen here, but if it did, the total solar energy onto 1
square yard is about 1 kilowatt. Solar cells are 16% efficient
according to the source above at the present time. We get 160
watts per square yard from our solar cells if the sun is at right
angles to the solar panel. We need 23 kw. 23kw divided by 160
watts/square yard = 143.75 square yards = 1293.75 square feet.
So if the sun is directly overhead of our solar panels, we need
1293.75 square feet of them. That would be 40 feet by 32.34
feet. But the sun is not directly overhead. Guess an angle. The
sine of 45 degrees is about .7. Dividing the 32.34 feet by 0.7 I
get 46.2 feet. So the solar cells cover the whole roof. The whole
roof has to slant southward at the right angle to catch the most
sunlight at winter solstice, or the whole roof has to rotate to follow
the sun. The average house is designed wrong for a rotating roof
that slants in only one direction.
Another source
http://www.wind-works.org/articles/costofiraqwarandwind.html
http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=34245
http://www.wind-works.org/bio.html
says that solar costs $10 Million/megawatt and wind costs $2
Million/Mw. That is greatly different from the prices above.
Paul Gipe also says solar works 1000 hours per year and wind
works 2000 hours per year. Since 1 year = 8766 hours, you have
to multiply the solar cost by 8.766 and the wind cost by 4.383 to
get a whole year's worth of energy. So solar really costs $87.66
Million per megawatt and wind really costs $8.766 Million per
megawatt not counting the cost of storing energy and the energy
lost in storage. Since energy conversions are inefficient, having
to convert and store the energy may multiply your costs by 10.
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» RE: Another estimate for solar power
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Another estimate for solar power [trying to correct the dis-information
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Had industry heeded Our call in the '70's- bugs would be out!
Posted by: Purple Girl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 14, 2008 10:21 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
asked me, "But what about nuclear waste? Will it not poison the
whole biosphere and persist for millions of years?"" I knew this
to be a nightmare fantasy wholly without substance in the real
world. I also knew that the natural world would welcome nuclear
waste as the perfect guardian against greedy developers, and
whatever slight harm it might represent was a small price to pay.
One of the striking things about places heavily contaminated by
radioactive nuclides is the richness of their wildlife. This is true
of the land around Chernobyl, the bomb test sites in the Pacific,
and areas near the United States' Savannah River nuclear weapons
plant of the Second World War. Wild plants and animals do not
perceive radiation as dangerous, and any slight reduction it may
cause in their lifespans is far less a hazard than is the presence of
people and their pets. It is easy to forget that now we are so
numerous, almost anything extra we do in the way of farming,
forestry and home building is harmful to wildlife and Gaia. The
preference of wildlife for nuclear waste sites suggests that the best
sites for its disposal are the tropical forests and other habitats in
need of a reliable guardian against their destruction by hungry
farmers and developers."
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Posted by: mindtrvlr on May 15, 2008 12:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: yankabroad on May 16, 2008 7:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They don't just publish anyone.
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Posted by: FedUpinNJ on May 17, 2008 11:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Purple Girl on May 18, 2008 3:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is time we make the 'Religious Right' prove their faith, their Devotion by focusing their energies on more important Task than blocking gay Marriage, Protesting (bombing) abortion clinics and Certianly Preaching about how th eWorld will End - a waste of time and an insult to any deity- it is not our place to decide and certainly NOT our place to Determine. At the very lest it is irrelevant how and when it will end- it does not negate our Responsiblity.so when I happen to be philosphically attacked by some self anointed 'Warrior of God' I demand they prove their missions validity on this basic Principle- What have you done as a Steward Today?What havce you done to help your fellow man, Our descendants, Our most precious Gift the Earth and OUR other Charges?Note PETA misses the fact we are innately Omniovoes- designed by a God or nature to thrive from both types of food. To deny such a reality is also a rejection of God and Nature. If the Steward fails to met his own basic needs - he will fail to meet all others.Granted we could cut down on meat consumption- But who would offer a lion a Salad as it's only sustenance?That would be not only bad animal Husbandry, it would be neglect & abuse. Also how sure are we a Carrot does not scream when shedded?
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Posted by: metoo on May 12, 2008 12:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain likes Nuclear, and Hillary likes alterniatives, but since Hillary is History we're going to be stuck with Obama's dirty coal or McCain's waste, hell of a choice don't ya know.
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» What the . . .
Posted by: Scientz
» The connection is obvious.
Posted by: heid
» RE: What the . . .How can you NOT see the connection?
Posted by: Beck
» There is NO SUCH THING AS NUCLEAR WASTE
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: There is NO SUCH THING AS NUCLEAR WASTE
Posted by: yale
» nucléaire est le futur !
Posted by: finleyd
» RE: nucléaire est le futur !
Posted by: yale
» RE: right
Posted by: Gibsongirl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on May 12, 2008 1:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder if anybody has run the math on how significant an effect this will have.
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» Demand destruction doesn't help if people switch to even worse fuels
Posted by: Hans B
» RE: This isn't my understanding of wood heat or kerosene.
Posted by: Beck
» Terminal forests are carbon-neutral, burning trees may not be.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Demand destruction doesn't help if people switch to even worse fuels
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Demand Destruction
Posted by: Spock
» One seems to think, but is really not.
Posted by: bornxeyed
Comments are closed-
Posted by: skizum on May 12, 2008 2:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the meantime, it might be a good idea to initiate a few other simultaneous campaigns to help us understand and adjust our behavioral patterns so that we can start to create a truly sustainable world.
I'd also like to post 350.org on a new forum being created to showcase great conceptual thinking.
My only hope is that we don't have to get burned too badly before we learn 'hot'...perhaps. that is what it will take ultimately motivate us into action.
If you are reading this, please help spread the word; our lives really do depend on this. The most effective way to get these ideas to sink to take root in the mainstream will be through repetitive messaging on a grass roots level.
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» RE: 350 has the guts to say "trains an absolute priority and planes taboo"
Posted by: CTvoter
Comments are closed-
Posted by: williameon on May 12, 2008 5:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can we solve The Climate Change Problem? without making important Political Change First?
Changes like:
Addressing the problem?
Signing Treaties?
Changing our Direction and Priorities?
They are all question marks now with the
Polluter's in Control
Eliminate the influence Polluters have over our Government.
Stop Privatization.
Close the Revolving Door
Focus on Conservation, Efficiency, Renewable Energy and Ending our Fossil Fuel Addiction.
Where can the most good be done?
Stopping the WAR would stop wasting resources.
Oil will drop by HALF!
If they start Bombing Iran
Oil will go up to $200 DOLLARS a BARREL! And
Talk about Pollution?
The American Military is the Worlds Biggest Polluter.
We are still #1 in something.
While Humanity gets flushed out the window.
$7 Dollars a Gallon at the pump.
Take about the economy being Dead in the water.
Dead Eye and The Shrub are stealing every last Nickel they can get.
They are determined to drain the last drop of BLOOD out of the Iraqi sand and American People.
They swear no allegiance to God or Country.
They are Corpirates
Part of a False Flag Operation
America has been Hi-Jacked by
Corpirates.
Chimp/Chainey
Oil soaked Chicken Hawks!
Part of the
Halliburton/Carlyle Junta
They fly:
The Skull and Bones
Sellouts to the Highest bidder.
Defenders of The Aristocracy sworn to Secrecy and GREED.
How do we stop them?
Shut the WAR down.
Strengthen Pollution Law.
Kicking the Polluter’s Lobbyists out of Washington
Stop the Graft
Breaking the control
The Dirty Fossil Fuel Pushers have over US by
KICKING OIL!
Freeing the Media from their Control.
Provide the information and facts
Instead of Propaganda and Fluff.
Take the Money out of politics and
Put Sanity back in.
Reinstitute: The Bill of Rights, Constitution and Declaration of Independence.
Revoke the Unpatriotic Act.
SURGE
PURGE
&
REBOOT!
Put the common People back in charge instead of:
Corpirate Spooks, Snooks, Clowns and Crooks.
Level the playing field.
Publicly finance all elections
Broaden representation in our Government by including everyone, making room for more and different Voices/Parties.
There are plenty of good examples out there to emulate.
Take the best of what we have and the best of what the World has to offer and change our System of Government for the better.
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Posted by: H.R. Chuckn'stuff on May 12, 2008 5:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read this:
James Lovelock in the Daily Mail.
We're all doomed! 40 years from global catastrophe - and there's NOTHING we can do about it, says climate change expert"
According to the climate change scientist James Lovelock, this is the beginning of the end of a peaceful phase in evolution. By 2040, the world population of more than six billion will have been culled by floods, drought and famine. Lovelock believes it is too late to repair the damage. Government targets are "futile". Britain contributes such a tiny amount of emissions compared with countries such as China that our self-regulatory measures are pathetic.
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» RE: CO2 reduction is fuitile is one version
Posted by: Mimi
» RE: CO2 reduction is fuitile
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» Of course we can make a difference.
Posted by: heid
» RE: CO2 reduction is fuitile
Posted by: prieten
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Posted by: Farasien on May 12, 2008 5:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only way anything is going to really change is to have a French-style revolution first. Until the heads of the money men are literally rolling in the streets and the blood of the Bastards who killed the soul of this and all other nations is running in the gutters where it belongs, we're getting more of the same.
And to them, if that means the world burns, so be it. There will always be some kind of business, even if its in the sale of coffins.
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» RE: When are people going to wake up?
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» It's Not Just The Rich
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
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Posted by: uncleeddie on May 12, 2008 5:53 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Big Oil Gore. It's about the Carbon Tax Stupid. If the focus goes onto taxing Corporate profits and not a carbon tax then the issue will die along with all the CO2 chicken littles. Just open your mind and view objectively the famous ice core analysis from an Inconvenient Lie and superimpose the CO2 graph over the temperature graph. Then you must eat crow like I did and realize temperatures on average rose 400-800 years ahead of CO2 rising by the same levels. Repeat temperatures rose BEFORE CO2 levels. Thus the HOAX that man is strictly to blame for temperature rise.
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» If temps rose BEFORE CO2, why should we contribute?
Posted by: Beck
» RE: If temps rose BEFORE CO2, why should we contribute?
Posted by: uncleeddie
» RE: CO who?
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: CO who?
Posted by: uncleeddie
» RE: CO who?
Posted by: particle
» CO2 warming is a fact
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: CO who?
Posted by: Spock
» RE: CO who?
Posted by: uncleeddie
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Posted by: FrogHollow on May 12, 2008 5:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"It's that gas at $4 a gallon means we're running out, at least of the cheap stuff..."
How did We Get Here?
Back in the 1960's and 1970's when environmentalist proposed the deployment of “alternative energies” and "tough conservation standards on auto and plant emissions" they were meet with catcalls and ridicule by conservative and right-wing ideologues. These proposals were meet with insults such as “Hippie energy,” “Moonbeam madness,” or “enemies of our way of life,” with the charge of “anti-Americanism,” and “anti-capitalism” labels.
President Carter wanted to increase funding for new technologies with lower omission requirements for autos. These needed policies were shouted down.
The Reagan years saw all such proposals blocked ideologically with funding cuts in the Federal budget and with constructive alternatives ignored by government, the corporate media, and in the public discourse.
During the Herbert Bush and Clinton presidencies it was more of the same but with much greater pretense and phony concern.
And then, the bed rock ideological opposition of George W. Bush (Dick "the great white hunter" Cheney), and the Republican dominated Congress, by the Oil Lobbyist, and by successful conservative movement of Stone Age reaction that combines -all worked together to prevent new alternatives to fossil fuels – they also exercised and exhibited their Neanderthal essence.
As a result of the policies promoted by the Republican Party, the Oil Gang, the Conservative pundits, public research into new forms of energy was actively delayed, -it was blocked and condemned: the development and deployment of new energy sources and new technologies were held back-while sane people had to listen to the conservative chants and their verbal voodoo economics about "the glory" of “Free Market Competition” (thus government was assigned no role, regulation of omissions considered taboo). These groups did this in order to RETARDED AMERICA'S ENEGERY SECTOR, to hold back new technologies, and to gain self-interested control OF THE ECONOMY via conservative government, global corporate control of petroleum production, tax, trade, and banking policy.
FOUR DECADES HAVE BEEN LOST. Jimmy Carter, Jerry Brown, Ralph Nader, the “hippies,” the environmentalist and New Age-ers had correctly sized -up reality while the Conservative Ideologues got away with steadily damaging our country and its' future.
We are now paying the price at the gas pump for the dominance of these Stone- Age Thinkers. Today, global Petroleum corporations have a monopoly ( brought about by constant “deregulation,” Government retreat, and by an expansion of corporate “tax loopholes, credits, and rebate tax policies (carry back and carry forward provisions, foreign sales exemptions, etc., etc.,) and by a selective advantage in government for petroleum and coal producers ( basically for their owners, CEO s, stock holders and with astronomical gain flowing to speculators)
These New World Global PIRATES currently control
the price of crude oil,
the price per-barrel,
the profits attained after refinement,
the profits from distribution,
the wholesale supply and whole sale price per gallon,
and they control of retail supply and retail pricing.
Welcome to unchained economy of market greed, to Rush Limbaugh's speculative casino world and to unrestrained dominance of global and finance capitalism:
welcome to the coming of $5 per gallon, and salutatory greetings to the glory of unending price gouging by the Petroleum Gangsters.
>A.Z. Arrow
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» RE: It's that gas at $4 a gallon means we're running out, at least of the cheap stuff
Posted by: uncleeddie
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Posted by: FrogHollow on May 12, 2008 5:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The global corporations have their hands in your purse, in your wallets, and in your savings account. They use their myth about the goodness of market capitalism along witj practical measures to control, monopolize, and gain by a tax on your salary via a constant rise in the cost of living. These corporations take their profit off the top and create wealth through theft. They have their idol worshipers and a fall back to a conservative mentality that lets them get a way with it. Their lobbys purchase their will in Congress. The Bush administration is made up of ex-oil CEOs.
Americans must demand total price controls and tight regulation on the price of gasoline, heating and diesel' fuel for the sake of consumers.
We must use our government and Constitution to fight and to destroy the global petroleum gang if we are to survive and thrive as a people and as a nation.
.A.Z. Arrow
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Posted by: FrogHollow on May 12, 2008 6:00 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HOW TO STOP PRICE GOUGING AT THE PUMP AND FIND NEW SOURCES OF ENERGY
I filled my car yesterday for a $3.66 per gallon.
I ASK YOU TO think back to when a gallon of gasoline was $1.50 at the pump. It was not that long ago Do you recall a single major oil producer or global petroleum corporation going bankrupt because they lacked income, or could not make enough money at a $1:50 per gallon? No.
Locally, Home heating oil is now l sold at $3.95 per gallon (I use wood heat).
The petroleum industry and global oil producers will never regulate themselves. They are bent on ever grander price gouging.
The excuse made by the talking heads and mouthpieces for the petroleum corporations is that “crude oil has risen to near $100 dollar per barrel.” Like I give a hoot, since the petroleum corporations set those monopoly prices in the first place. They are simply PRICE GOUGING and using this excuse as camouflage for their greed.
We fill up, they drain dollars.
The oil companies made BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN PROFIT when gasoline was sold at $1.50, and when Heating Oil was priced at $2.00 per gallons. At the time, they did not go bankrupt and their tax filings indicate that they made billions of dollars in profit.
Further, no matter how high, or how low, the cost per barrel it does not put money into my pocket. IT IS SIMPLY NECESSARY SPENING REQUIRED TO RUN MY CAR. And as I watch the price of gas climb I know, because it was whispered into my ear by my empty wallet that the oil corporations will prosper and profit no matter what the price. That's why they call it 'Black Gold”.
Yesterday, the gas pump sang me a song about gouging with a chorus humming “astronomically expensive.”
I have heard a rumor that some people want even higher prices so as to force “conservation of fuel.” (I can't walk that far.) So I suspect that they must own stock. I do not. And I consider that perspective ridiculous because it would force me to never go anywhere by auto, and believe that increased price for gasoline can only be realistic for people with incomes larger than mine.
THE PRICE OF GASOLINE IS TOO HIGH!
A Workable Government Solution for Consummers:
a Value added tax on price gouging monopoly corporations at 100% above a reasonable price.
The oil companies made BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN PROFITS when gasoline was sold at $1.50, and when Heating Oil at $2.00 per gallons. They did not go bankrupt Back then they were rolling in money.
So, tax every cent over $1.50 per gallon at 100%. Tax every cent over $2.00 per gallon for heating fuel at 100%.
The revenue generated by this tax on price gouging could then be shifted to a trust fund and used for research and development of new alternative sources of energy such as Black light Plasma, cars that burn salt water as fuel, or electricity generated from solar, tidal, magnetic, biomass, wind, and water energies, or by cold fusion.
The revenues collected on the tax on diesel fuel would provide truckers a direct rebate ( a fund distribute directly to the drivers themselves rather than siphoned-off by shipping corporations or dispatchers).
And added to my proposal above:
Diesel fuel is now over $4 per gallon.This causes price increases throughout the entire economy.
Thus: A needed %100 percent Tax on diesel fuel and revenue collected would provide truckers with a direct rebate ( a fund distribute directly to the drivers themselves rather than tax code allowances currently siphoned-off by shipping corporations or dispatchers) Give every cent per gallon of diesel fuel above A FAIR MARKET PRICE ($2.00 per gallon) back to truck drivers as an income rebate or subsidy.
~Arrow
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» RE: Price of gasoline
Posted by: kiatoa
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Posted by: Last Chance on May 12, 2008 6:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: educing population won't work, either. At least not for many decades.
Posted by: leemiller38
» RE: educing population won't work, either. At least not for many decades.
Posted by: Last Chance
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Posted by: grmartin on May 12, 2008 6:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: bozhidar on May 12, 2008 6:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
perhaps every aspect of our infinitely-valued nature ought to be changed for better.
thus structure of governance must also change; it being possibly the most important actor/factor for our well-being.
our wishful thinking along with our fears is also a mere part of one reality in which each aspect of it is connected with each other aspect.
how to change, let's say, canadian structure of governance? we could vote for socialists instead for politicians who represent the plutocrats.
just like in US, we in canada also have a plutocratic rule. and most or all plutocracies are extremely warlike.
we could also buy less; thus putting pressure on middle class to join us in the struggle to obtain a better rule.
swiss have the best rule. thank u.
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on May 12, 2008 6:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2) Provide major subsidies and tax breaks to any family that is energy-independent as part of a major government-led marketing campaign aimed at explaining the severity of the global warming and pollution problems.
3) Provide major subsidies and tax breaks to solar PV and thermal manufacturers, wind turbine manufactures, battery manufactureres, and organic and sustainable farmers. Halt all subsidies to coal, petroleum, natural gas and nuclear.
4) Begin phasing out all energy import to the Unites States, including from Canada and Mexico, as the world's biggest infrastructure construction project begins.
Oh, I guess we'll let Japan and Germany do all that, huh?
Stupidity and greed - those are the defining qualities of the current "leaders of American society", whether they are in the government, the media, academics, finance and industry, or whatever.
Did Prozac kill the dream, or was it indifference?
Same thing, actually.
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» nr 1: stop population growth nr 2: sustainability as main value
Posted by: stilldreaming
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Posted by: opmoc on May 12, 2008 6:57 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. Modest Global Warming, at least up until 1998 when a cooling trend began, has been real.
3. CO2 is not a significant greenhouse gas; 95% of the contribution is due to Water Vapor.
4. Man's contribution to Greenhouse Gasses is relatively insignificant. We didn't cause the recent Global Warming and we cannot stop it.
5. Solar Activity appears to be the principal driver for Climate Change, accompanied by complex ocean currents which distribute the heat and control local weather systems.
6. CO2 is a useful trace gas in the atmosphere, and the planet would actually benefit by having more, not less of it, because it is not a driver for Global Warming and would enrich our vegetation, yielding better crops to feed the expanding population.
7. CO2 is not causing global warming, in fact, CO2 is lagging temperature change in all reliable datasets. The cart is not pulling the donkey, and the future cannot influence the past.
8. Nothing happening in the climate today is particularly unusual, and in fact has happened many times in the past and will likely happen again in the future.
9. The UN IPCC has corrupted the "reporting process" so badly, it makes the oil-for-food scandal look like someone stole some kid's lunch money. They do not follow the Scientific Method, and modify the science as needed to fit their predetermined conclusions. In empirical science, one does NOT write the conclusion first, then solicit "opinion" on the report, ignoring any opinion which does not fit their predetermined conclusion while falsifying data to support unrealistic models.
10. Polar Bear populations are not endangered, in fact current populations are healthy and at almost historic highs. The push to list them as endangered is an effort to gain political control of their habitat... particularly the North Slope oil fields.
11. There is no demonstrated causal relationship between hurricanes and/or tornadoes and global warming. This is sheer conjecture totally unsupported by any material science.
12. Observed glacial retreats in certain select areas have been going on for hundreds of years, and show no serious correlation to short-term swings in global temperatures.
13. Greenland is shown to be an island completely surrounded by water, not ice, in maps dating to the 14th century. There is active geothermal activity in the currently "melting" sections of Greenland.
14. The Antarctic Ice cover is currently the largest ever observed by satellite, and periodic ice shelf breakups are normal and correlate well with localized tectonic and geothermal activity along the Antarctic Peninsula.
15. The Global Warming Panic was triggered by an artifact of poor mathematics which has been thoroughly disproved. The panic is being deliberately nurtured by those who stand to gain both financially and politically from perpetuation of the hoax.
16. Scientists who "deny" the hoax are often threatened with loss of funding or even their jobs.
17. The correlation between solar activity and climate is now so strong that solar physicists are now seriously discussing the much greater danger of pending global cooling.
18. Biofuel hysteria is already having a disastrous effect on world food supplies and prices, and current technologies for biofuel production consume more energy than the fuels produce.
19. Global Warming Hysteria is potentially linked to a stress-induced mental disorder.
20. In short, there is no "climate crisis" of any kind at work on our planet.
linked text
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» Because you use insults and give no personal credentials, there's no reason to believe you
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Because you use insults and give no personal credentials, there's no reason to believe you
Posted by: uncleeddie
» Jim Henson Created The Muppets. I apologise if you find my poor joke offensive...
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: Some FACTS About Climate Change That Contrast With This Muppet's Nonsense
Posted by: uncleeddie
» opmoc is working for the coal industry.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» And you're working for the nuclear industry...
Posted by: brunowe
» NO I am NOT working for the nuclear industry...
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» No I am not working for the coal industry.
Posted by: opmoc
» let's consume and multiply as usual?! Really?
Posted by: stilldreaming
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Posted by: kungfoofighterx on May 12, 2008 7:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It will be crazy when as a tourist one will see people so fat they have to drive around the grocery store in a motorized chairs because they are too weak to support their fat bodies in rural India or China. I imagine what they must think when they come to the USA and see this.
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Posted by: Jean Siracusa on May 12, 2008 7:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am appalled that some of my fellow colleagues appear to be as ignorant of these issues as are these students, especially those in the sciences who seem to have no idea of the swiftness and consequences of the warming of our earth and the relationships of our consumption and food production habits to the problems our planet faces today. The actions of these professionals who are financially capable of purchasing what they want indicate that they have become prodigious consumers unaware that their actions are contributing to a problem that they superficially understand.
I wonder whether new teachers and other professionals merely learned differently with a lesser emphasis about real science, life, a work ethic, health, food production, and the interconnectedness of those elements with the other non-human forms of life on earth, that, therefore, they teach and work from a narrower perspective.
I am perplexed that so many people have little or no idea of most critical issues, and wonder if it is because these issues are misrepresented in the mainstream media or not discussed at all.
My students tell me every semester that they learned more in my class than in all the other classes they have taken. Many of these students are non-science majors who take my class to fulfill a science requirement. I understand that I have made a difference in their lives, and also in those whom these students communicate with. What seems impalpable to me is that the mainstream media including public stations do not engage in truthful investigative reporting or stand up for what they believe. It is imperative that dignity and honesty return to the mainstream media, so that we can become an informed society and begin to solve a few of the many problems facing humanity today.
I applaud and am thankful to those who are working toward change but I am beginning to feel that there is so much at stake and so much to lose that my efforts are miniscule in proportion. We are trying to speak to a superficially motivated population who has no clue that they are on a freight train heading toward a cliff at 1000 miles an hour, because their information is brought to them by a corrupt media controlled by big business to gain political favors and huge profits. Watching television is a passive activity where people learn what they should eat, drink, wear; what drugs to take and why, and all of the other flawed superficial trite drivel that is classified as entertainment on this medium.
Long ago, I chose to do what I could that would make a difference somewhere, however insignificant because I believed that we could change the world if everyone made small contributions locally in their communities. There are many who are doing this today, and if we can increase awareness in mainstream America as contributors of these related articles have, we may have an opportunity to restore our planet and make it habitable for all life.
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» RE: Perplexed
Posted by: leemiller38
» RE: Perplexed
Posted by: Jean Siracusa
» RE: Perplexed,about Media
Posted by: ibzear2
» how do you explain disinterest in overpopulation & limits to growth?
Posted by: stilldreaming
» RE: how do you explain disinterest in overpopulation & limits to growth?
Posted by: Jean Siracusa
» RE: how do you explain disinterest in overpopulation & limits to growth?
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: how do you explain disinterest in overpopulation & limits to growth?
Posted by: stilldreaming
» RE: how do you explain disinterest in overpopulation & limits to growth?
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: "my efforts are miniscule in proportion"
Posted by: PaulK
» Not to worry
Posted by: civilsociety
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Posted by: crazy carlos on May 12, 2008 8:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
VIA PERU OR ECUADOR--THE MOUNTAIN ICE THERE IS RAPIDLY MELTING--THAT WATER IS THE LIFE BLOOD OF BOGOTA,QUITO,LIMA AND SANTIAGO. EXCEPT FOR QUITO, ALL ARE CITIES OF 5M+ people. THIS CONDITION EXISTS IN DOZENS OF PLACES AROUND THE WORLD--THEY SURVIVE ON GLACIAL WATER. THE TOOTH FAIRY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. GUESS WHO THAT LEAVES??
IF THE TIME LINE OF 2012 IS ACCURATE, (WHICH SIX DEGREES ALSO USES)THEN WE ARE WAY TOO LATE. MY THOUGHTS ARE TO DETERMINE WHERE THE METHANE RISK IS HIGHEST AND TRY AND CAPTURE IT, LIQUIDIFY IT LIKE NATURAL GAS (CURRENTLY BEING DONE)AND PERHAPS AT LEAST MINIMIZE THE POTENTIAL OF A REPEAT OF WHAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED TO THE DINO'S 65 MILLION YEARS AGO PLUS IT DOES TEMPORIARLY SOLVE THE IMMEADIATE "PEAK OIL" PROBLEM. 6.5 BILLION PEOPLE ONA PLANET THEY HAS A CARRYING CAPACITY OF MAYBE 2.5 BILLION IS A RECEIPE FOR DIASTER. (THE PLANET WENT FROM APPX. 2.5 BILLION TO OUR CURRENT SIZE IN LESS THAN A CENTURY) TO DO NOTHING IS TO KISS OUR ASSES GOODBYE. IN THIS REGARD SPECIAL KUDOS TO CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM FOR THE BENEFICIAL PREACHINGS OF GO FORTH AND MULTIPLY.
CRAZY CARLOS
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» Are you planning to fly there?
Posted by: heid
» RE: Are you planning to fly there?
Posted by: crazy carlos
» RE: Are you planning to fly there? Thank you.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: POPULLUTION
Posted by: uncleeddie
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on May 12, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The decline in the dollar inversely correlates--by necessity--with both an increase of the value of foreign currencies and foreign commodities.
So tell me: how do you impose your carbon-credit schemes, your mandatory CO2 cutbacks, your other "visions for the future"...on sovereign nations? Invade them for their own good? Sorry George, we can't afford another misadventure, thanks to you.
When gas hits $5.00, you're going to see many, many 1976-89 carbuerated hoopties still thumping and twitching to the beat along our city streets get consigned to the scrap heap (there's a lot of fairly expensive scrap metal to be reclaimed in cars before they went with polymers), and you're going to see many, many SUV's get parked.
They'll be getting out of the way for the emergence of the Chinese and Indian driving classes, if current trends hold. Besides, with our ecologically diverse nation, the only thing we would be generally worried about is the release of H2S from sequestration.
That'd be sort of a deal-breaker for mammalian life, not to mention lots and lots of other guys.
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Posted by: Spock on May 12, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» It was H.G. Wells ...
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: The Mongoose Trick - speaking truth to tyranny & tyrants
Posted by: uncleeddie
» RE: We respond more forcefully to far less dangerous risks.
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on May 12, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THE EARTH IS NOT A GREENHOUSE WITH A PLASTIC COVER. IT IS A PLANET WITH AN ATMOSPHERE, SURROUNDED BY A COLD DARK VACCUUM, AND CONSTANTLY BOMBARDED WITH RADIATION.
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» And you assume insults sway people.
Posted by: Beck
» Take a look at "Eighteen hundred and froze to death"
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Take a look at "Eighteen hundred and froze to death"
Posted by: uncleeddie
» RE: Climate Change is for morons and you...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
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Posted by: Last Chance on May 12, 2008 8:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Addicted to growth
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Addicted to growth
Posted by: Last Chance
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Posted by: willymack on May 12, 2008 8:32 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: maxpayne on May 12, 2008 8:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another thing you'll never hear from either the Far Right or the Far Left is the fact that we need to start and continue respecting and learning from people who conserve, reuse, recycle, and even renew what they have. For example, when some of us good people are surrounded by brain damaged wasteful spenders who look down and/or frown upon people who reuse their plastic bags as often as possible, giving a rebuttal is never so easy. Sure, I have no problem counter-attacking by pointing out that we fight wars for oil to keep burning and wasting plastic all the time but how are we going to prevail when we're left to trying to come up with our own strategies for convincing people to save on plastics? The "conservatives" were successful for getting their base to listen and "accept" their reckless ideology.
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» RE: First, improve public transportation and start respecting people who are frugal and conserve.
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 8:49 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
year for each 1000 Megawatts generated for one year. Nuclear plants put ZERO
CO2 into the air. The CO2 cost of building coal vs. nuclear is the same and
negligible. The CO2 cost of mining and transporting coal is large and not
included in the 14.7 MILLION TONS of CO2. The mining and transportation
cost of nuclear fuel is zero since Yucca Mountain is full of fuel that needs to be
reprocessed and put back into reactors. Each 1000 Megawatts of nuclear power
needs so little uranium that you could easily carry an equal weight in a suitcase.
Burning 4 MILLION TONS of coal makes 14.7 MILLION TONS of CO2. As I
have pointed out many times, burning 4 MILLION TONS of coal puts enough
U235 into the air and cinders to fuel a nuclear plant, or enough uranium +
thorium to fuel hundreds of nuclear plants if breeding is allowed. There is no
way to get there from here without nuclear power, like it or not.
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» I have answered every one of your concerns many times. Read.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» Yes I do read the responses and I answer them.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» Here is part of a newspaper story on NUMEC
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on May 12, 2008 8:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This would not only cut CO2 but also NO2 which is a known carcinogen thus we could cut cancer rates as well saving billions in medical costs not to mention lives..
One of the problems with switching to Hydrogen is the availability of fueling stations but in the case of buses which already share a central common hub and parking and fueling depot conversion to hydrogen would be more than simple..!
Then also we could switch city cabs to run on compressed air vehicles which do 65 mph already and run all day on $2.00 worth of compressed air as are built by Ta Ta in India this would also greatly reduce emissions in our major cities and could be done immediately..
To bad our politicians from Obama to Bush to Clinton to McCain to Gore never mention this stuff and are all worthless self serving lying bags of human excrement..!
"So it goes.."
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» RE: Hydrogen Buses in Cities and Compressed Air Cabs..
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
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» RE: Hydrogen Buses in Cities and Compressed Air Cabs..
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» RE: Hydrogen Buses in Cities and Compressed Air Cabs..
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:08 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Energy policy = environmental policy
because Global Warming
can lead to Hydrogen Sulfide gas coming out of the oceans.
Hydrogen Sulfide gas will Kill all people. Homo Sap will go
EXTINCT unless drastic action is taken.
October 2006 Scientific American
"EARTH SCIENCE
Impact from the Deep
Strangling heat and gases emanating from the earth and sea, not
asteroids, most likely caused several ancient mass extinctions.
Could the same killer-greenhouse conditions build once again?
By Peter D. Ward
downloaded from:
http://www.sciam.com/
article.cfm?articleID=
00037A5D-A938-150E-
A93883414B7F0000&
sc=I100322
....................Most of the article omitted......................
But with atmospheric carbon climbing at an annual rate of 2 ppm
and expected to accelerate to 3 ppm, levels could approach 900
ppm by the end of the next century, and conditions that bring
about the beginnings of ocean anoxia may be in place. How soon
after that could there be a new greenhouse extinction? That is
something our society should never find out."
Press Release
Pennsylvania State University
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, Nov. 3, 2003
downloaded from:
http://www.geosociety.org/meetings/2003/prPennStateKump.htm
"In the end-Permian, as the levels of atmospheric oxygen fell and
the levels of hydrogen sulfide and carbon dioxide rose, the upper
levels of the oceans could have become rich in hydrogen sulfide
catastrophically. This would kill most of the oceanic plants and
animals. The hydrogen sulfide dispersing in the atmosphere would
kill most terrestrial life."
www.astrobio.net is a NASA web zine. See:
http://www.astrobio.net/
news/modules.php?op=
modload&name=News&
file=article&sid=672
http://www.astrobio.net/
news/modules.php?op=
modload&name=News&
file=article&sid=1535
http://www.astrobio.net/
news/article2509.html
http://astrobio.net/news/
modules.php?op=modload
&name=News&file=article
&sid=2429&mode=thread
&order=0&thold=0
These articles agree with the first 2. They all say 6 degrees C or
1000 parts per million CO2 is the extinction point.
The global warming is already 1.3 degree Farenheit. 11 degrees
Farenheit is about 6 degrees Celsius. The book "Six Degrees" by
Mark Lynas agrees. If the global warming is 6 degrees
centigrade, we humans go extinct. See:
http://www.marklynas.org/
2007/4/23/six-steps-to-hell-
summary-of-six-degrees-as-
published-in-the-guardian
"Under a Green Sky" by Peter D. Ward, Ph.D., 2007.
Paleontologist discusses mass extinctions of the past and the one
we are doing to ourselves.
ALL COAL FIRED POWER PLANTS MUST BE
CONVERTED TO NUCLEAR IMMEDIATELY TO AVOID
THE EXTINCTION OF US HUMANS. 32 countries have
nuclear power plants. Only 9 have the bomb. The top 3
producers of CO2 all have nuclear power plants, coal fired power
plants and nuclear bombs. They are the USA, China and India.
Reducing CO2 production by 90% by 2050 requires drastic action
in the USA, China and India. King Coal has to be demoted to a
commoner. Coal must be left in the earth. If you own any coal
stock, NOW is the time to dump it, regardless of loss, because it
will soon be worthless.
I have no financial connection to the nuclear power industry.
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
8 May 2008
RealClimate.org
Global Cooling-Wanna Bet?
Filed under: Climate Science — stefan @ 1:55 PM
By Stefan Rahmstorf, Michael Mann, Ray Bradley, William
Connolley, David Archer, and Caspar Ammann
Global cooling appears to be the “flavour of the month”. First, a
rather misguided media discussion erupted on whether global
warming had stopped, based on the observed temperatures of the
past 8 years or so (see our post). Now, an entirely new discussion
is capturing the imagination, based on a group of scientists from
Germany predicting a pause in global warming last week in the
journal Nature (Keenlyside et al. 2008).
Specifically, they make two forecasts for global temperature, as
discussed in the last paragraphs of their paper and shown in their
Figure 4 (see below). The first forecast concerns the time interval
2000-2010, while the second concerns the interval 2005-2015 (*).
For these two 10-year averages, the authors make the following
prediction:
“… the initialised prediction indicates a slight cooling relative to
1994-2004 conditions”
Their graph shows this: temperatures in the two forecast intervals
(green points shown at 2005 and 2010) are almost the same and
are both lower than observed in 1994-2004 (the end of the red line
in their graph).
Figure 4 from Keenlyside et al '08
The authors also make regional predictions, but naturally it was
this global prediction that captivated most newspaper stories
around the world (e.g. BBC News, Reuters, Bloomberg and so
on), because of its seeming contradiction with global warming.
The authors emphasise this aspect in their own media release,
which was titled: Will Global Warming Take a Short Break?
That this cooling would just be a temporary blip and would
change nothing about global warming goes without saying and has
been amply discussed elsewhere (e.g. here). But another question
has been rarely discussed: will this forecast turn out to be correct?
We think not – and we are prepared to bet serious money on this.
We have double-checked with the authors: they say they really
mean this as a serious forecast, not just as a methodological
experiment. If the authors of the paper really believe that their
forecast has a greater than 50% chance of being correct, then they
should accept our offer of a bet; it should be easy money for them.
If they do not accept our bet, then we must question how much
faith they really have in their own forecast.
The bet we propose is very simple and concerns the specific
global prediction in their Nature article. If the average temperature
2000-2010 (their first forecast) really turns out to be lower or
equal to the average temperature 1994-2004 (*), we will pay them
€ 2500. If it turns out to be warmer, they pay us € 2500. This bet
will be decided by the end of 2010. We offer the same for their
second forecast: If 2005-2015 (*) turns out to be colder or equal
compared to 1994-2004 (*), we will pay them € 2500 – if it turns
out to be warmer, they pay us the same. The basis for the
temperature comparison will be the HadCRUT3 global mean
surface temperature data set used by the authors in their paper.
...................article continues..............
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Posted by: Southern Gal on May 12, 2008 9:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Day The Earth Stood Still
Posted by: armorypk
» RE: The Day The Earth Stood Still
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:19 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
probably won't notice the global warming, but in the following
equal span of time, the climate will make up for lost time. The
ENSO is a Pacific Ocean oscillation and that is pretty big, but it is
not global. You are confusing American weather with global
climate. We also know all about Milankovitch cycles. As I have
stated above, Global Warming CAN DRIVE HOMO SAPIENS
TO EXTINCTION. An ice age cannot cause the extinction of
Homo Sap. And we have a very effective means of stopping an
ice age. All we have to do is burn a lot of coal, like we are doing
now. You see, in the 19th century, we did the experiment of
measuring the absorption spectrum of carbon dioxide and a lot of
other gasses. Check out the MIT Wavelength Tables, an
encyclopedic warehouse of spectra. We have already guaranteed
that there will not be an ice age soon. The problem is that we
overshot the mark and we are continuing to overdo it.
Snow is a whole lot easier to deal with than H2S is to breathe.
We can't allow the possibility of the oceans turning hot and sour
and outgassing H2S. H2S is a poison gas. The moisture in your
lungs converts it to H2SO4 [battery acid] and your lungs dissolve.
Not a pleasant way to go.
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:24 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
includes every element in the periodic table. The important
impurities are: URANIUM, ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY,
Antimony, Cobalt, Nickel, Copper, Selenium, Barium, Fluorine,
Silver, Beryllium, Iron, Sulfur, Boron, Titanium, Cadmium,
Magnesium, Thorium, Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium, Chlorine,
Aluminum, Chromium, Molybdenum and Zinc. There is so much
of these elements in coal that cinders and coal smoke are actually
valuable ores. We should be able to get all the uranium and
thorium we need to fuel nuclear power plants for centuries by
using cinders and smoke as ore. Remember that, to get a given
amount of energy, you need about 100 MILLION TIMES as much
coal as uranium. That means the coal mine has to be 100 million
times larger than the uranium mine, not counting the recycling of
nuclear fuel. We can keep our mountains and forests and our
health by switching from coal to nuclear power.
On the order of a Million Chinese die each year because of coal
smoke. Chinese industrial grade coal contains large amounts of
arsenic. Chinese industrial grade coal is sometimes stolen by
peasants for cooking. The result is that the whole family
dies of arsenic poisoning.
I have zero financial interest in nuclear power, and I never have
had a financial interest in nuclear power. My sole motivation in
writing this is to avoid death by H2S gas.
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Posted by: Jfutures on May 12, 2008 9:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THEY ALL TURNED ME DOWN!
Our group didn't make it.
Apparently these national groups don't give any support to local, grass roots groups.
Pity!
John Fritz
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» RE: Jfutures
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Jfutures
Posted by: Last Chance
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:30 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a "spinning reserve" is required in most locations. If you are
running the steam powered generator at the spinning reserve rate,
you may as well use the steam as your energy source and forget
about the wind. Wind turbines are decorations, not sources of
energy for the grid until we have room temperature
superconductors or super batteries. There are special locations
and circumstances where wind energy is useful, but wind cannot
replace coal and nuclear any time soon.
Those windmills are just nuisances that electric companies are
forced to put up with. They aren't really reducing the need for
coal because the wind is too variable. The coal fire has to be kept
burning to maintain a "spinning reserve." There is one and only
one practical way to replace coal fired power plants at the present
time. That one way is nuclear power. Nuclear power works for
base load and nuclear power is clean and safe. Nuclear fuel is
recyclable. There is no such thing as nuclear waste.
We don't have batteries that are good enough and cheap enough to
solve the problem of wind variability yet. We need research into
energy storage and room temperature superconductors. The
research will take an unknown amount of time. We don't have
that time. Batteries and room temperature superconductors
have been under research for a very long time already, so don't
expect any breakthroughs next week.
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» RE: Wind power doesn't work on calm days.
Posted by: yale
» RE: Wind power doesn't work [Yeah Right
Posted by: Squarehead
» Solar is working for me just fine, and anyone can do it.
Posted by: yale
» RE: You need to post this as a new comment, about 19 times each article. . .
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.marklynas.org/
2007/4/23/six-steps-to-hell-
summary-of-six-degrees-as-
published-in-the-guardian
'Six steps to hell' - summary of Six Degrees as published in the Guardian
23 April 07:
1ºC Nebraska ...shortened... These innocuous-looking hills were once desert, part
of an immense system of sand dunes that spread across the Great Plains from
Texas in the south to the Canadian prairies in the north. Six thousand years ago,
when temperatures were about 1C warmer than today in the US, these deserts may
have looked much as the Sahara does today. ....shortened... devastating
agriculture and driving out human inhabitants on a scale far larger than the 1930s
“Dustbowl” exodus.....shortened...
2ºC ....shortened...Two degrees is also enough to cause the eventual complete
melting of the Greenland ice sheet, which would raise global sea levels by seven
metres. ...shortened...
3ºC Scientists estimate that we have at best 10 years to bring down global carbon
emissions if we are to stabilise world temperatures within two degrees of their
present levels. ....shortened... 3C may be the “tipping point” where global
warming could run out of control, leaving us powerless to intervene as planetary
temperatures soar. The centre of this predicted disaster is the Amazon, where the
tropical rainforest, which today extends over millions of square kilometres, would
burn down in a firestorm of epic proportions. ...shortened... Once the trees have
gone, desert will appear and the carbon released by the forests’ burning will be
joined by still more from the world’s soils. This could boost global temperatures
by a further 1.5ºC – tippping us straight into the four-degree world.
....shortened...
4ºC At four degrees another tipping point is almost certain to be crossed; indeed,
it could happen much earlier. ....shortened... hundreds of billions of tonnes of
carbon locked up in Arctic permafrost – particularly in Siberia – enter the melt
zone, releasing globally warming methane and carbon dioxide in immense
quantities. ....shortened...
5ºC ....shortened... methane hydrates. This unlikely substance, a sort of ice-like
combination of methane and water that is only stable at low temperatures and high
pressure, may have burst into the atmosphere from the seabed in an immense
“ocean burp”, sparking a surge in global temperatures ....shortened... . Today vast
amounts of these same methane hydrates still sit on subsea continental shelves. As
the oceans warm, they could be released once more in a terrifying echo of that
methane belch of 55 million years ago. In the process, moreover, the seafloor
could slump as the gas is released, sparking massive tsunamis ....shortened...
6ºC ....shortened... end of the Permian period, 251 million years ago. By the end
of this calamity, up to 95% of species were extinct. The end-Permian wipeout is
the nearest this planet has ever come to becoming just another lifeless rock drifting
through space. ....shortened... most of the world’s plant cover was removed in a
catastrophic bout of soil erosion. Rocks also show a “fungal spike” as plants and
animals rotted in situ. Still more corpses were washed into the oceans, helping to
turn them stagnant and anoxic. ....shortened...
One scientific paper investigating “kill mechanisms” during the end-Permian
suggests that methane hydrate explosions “could destroy terrestrial life almost
entirely”.
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Methane + air = a fuel-air explosive.
At 5 degrees centigrade of warming, there will be enough fuel-air explosions to
make an all-out nuclear war look like a picnic. Homo Sapiens will have a hard
time not going extinct. Very few people will survive this time. Is it beginning to
sink in how desperate we are? The Siberia methane positive feedback is
beginning to take control out of our hands. Really draconian measures are
required NOW. Remember everything I have posted in comment to previous
articles? I have to re-post them because thoughtcriminal didn't get the message.
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 9:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
trillion small disks deflect enough sunlight to cool the planet? Astronomer Roger
Angel proposes to find out.
http://www.astrobio.net/
news/modules.php?op=
modload&name=News&file
=article&sid=2309&mode=
thread&order=0&thold=0
[NASA document not copyrighted]
Pies in the Sky: A Solution to Global Warming?
By David Tenenbaum
As the reality of global warming sinks in, the scramble for solutions has begun. In
the mainstream are ideas for energy conservation and non-carbon energy sources
such as wind and nuclear power. Further afield are proposals to recover carbon
dioxide spewed out by power plants.
Much more speculative are some ambitious plans for high-tech parasols to block
sunlight before it reaches this planet. At the NASA Institute for Advanced
Concepts (NIAC) meeting last fall, Roger Angel, an astronomer and optics expert
at the University of Arizona, produced a highly detailed – and highly futuristic --
proposal for a sunshade huge enough to cut incoming sunlight by 1.8 percent.
That, he says, should counteract the warming expected from a doubling of
atmospheric carbon dioxide.
Angel’s plan builds on an early design by James Early of Lawrence Livermore
National Laboratory, but it slims the mass down from 100 million tons to 20
million tons – something that, he says, conceivably could be launched from Earth.
Angel does not consider solar sunblock the optimum choice in the struggle against
global warming, but rather a fallback position “if things get seriously bad.” If, for
example, ice starts sliding faster from Greenland than expected, sun shields “may
be a useful idea” to prevent vast coastal flooding.
The Early concept calls for a giant sun-shield near the L1 Lagrange point, about
1.8 million kilometers (about 1.2 million miles) above Earth. Here, the gravity of
Earth and sun balance, enabling a shield to remain stationary for years.
Angel suggests that the shield, covering an area of 4.7 million square kilometers
(slightly smaller than the area of the continental United States west of the
Mississippi River), would be best made as a cloud of 16 trillion free-flying circular
refractors, each 0.6 meter (2 feet) in diameter. . Each refractor would be about 5
microns thick and weigh 1.2 grams. The refractors would be launched in stacks
and then deployed upon reaching the target zone.
At every stage, Angel has proposed high-technology solutions to staggering
challenges. He would launch the refractors to escape velocity with an
electromagnetic coil gun, which propels a missile based on electromagnetic
repulsion, then propel them to L1 with ion thrusters using argon as fuel. Once in
place, each disk would sense its position using hyper-miniature cameras that detect
sun and Earth. Adjustable trim tabs (tiny mirrors) catch solar radiation pressure as
needed to maintain the disk’s correct orientation and position in space.
If the disks had reflective mirror surfaces, they would quickly be pushed toward
Earth by solar radiation pressure, so they will be designed to refract (bend)
sunlight, not reflect it. Since they would make only a small deflection, the disks
would evade most of the radiation pressure, Angel says.
He estimates the disks could remain in orbit for at least 50 years, until their solar
cells degraded and they could no longer position themselves.
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Posted by: tommy_slothrop on May 12, 2008 10:13 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: dayahka on May 12, 2008 10:54 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hansen is a True Believing Propagandist
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Hansen is a True Believing Propagandist
Posted by: leemiller38
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Posted by: estherme on May 12, 2008 11:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gov't is killing us or letting corporations kill us with the GMO's in food,processed foods that gives diseases like diabetes, etc. Fluoride in water & tons of other additives in our food & water. Now our air is killing us & it is not just from CO2 emissions! Does anyone care!!
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 12, 2008 11:09 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to replace the base load capacity of coal.
Read: "Environmentalists for Nuclear Energy", by B. Comby
English edition, 2001, 345 pp. (soft cover), 38 Euros
TNR Editions, 266 avenue Daumesnil, 75012 Paris, France;
ISBN 2-914190-02-6
order from: http://www.comby.org/livres/livresen.htm
Read a review of this book by the American Health Physics Society at:
http://www.comby.org/media/
articles/articles.in.english/
HealthPhysics-NUC-July2002.htm
www.ecolo.org
Association of Environmentalists For Nuclear Energy [EFN]
Nuclear power is 30% cheaper than the coal power we have been
duped into using. We have 5000 years worth of nuclear fuel if
we recycle it rather than waste it as we do now. Nuclear is also
the safest, cleanest and cheapest form of energy available.
The French nuclear power industry is socialized, government
owned. Socialism isn't bad in all cases. Government employees
are good at following rules. To make nuclear power safe and
profitable, the rules must be followed. We can make nuclear
power work for us too. All we have to do is follow the French
example. The French government receives royalties from the
French nuclear power industry. It works for the taxpayers. Of
course the Republicans are afraid of the French model because the
French people pay 30% LESS for their electricity than we pay for
our electricity. France recycles nuclear fuel for many countries, at a profit.
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» RE: All of your nuclear questions are answered in one book
Posted by: fanny666
» "Greenpeace and WWF Funded by the Arabs"
Posted by: PaulK
» RE: All of your nuclear questions are answered [Oh no they ain't
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: HughScott on May 12, 2008 1:59 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the displayed vehicles was a 2006 Jeep STR8 muscle car with 420 horses under the hood.
When I asked the owner why he needed so much power, he said, "For drag racing. With this baby, I can get up to 80 mph in 8.2 seconds on a 1/8 mile strip"
I didn't asked the obvious question -- What kind of gas mileage he got around town? -- for the obvious reason. Clearly he didn't give a damn about conserving energy.
I think the gentleman is typical of most Americans. Otherwise we would have a national speed limit of 55 mph.
REASONS FOR REDUCING HIGHWAY SPEEDS, from various Internet sources:
The ideal speed for gas mileage varies from vehicle to vehicle, but it's generally somewhere in the 40-55 mph range. Mileage generally peaks around 40 mph and starts dropping again around 55 mph.
As speed increases, fuel economy decreases exponentially. If you are one of the "ten-over on the freeway" set, try driving the speed limit for a few days. You'll save a lot of fuel and your journey won't take much longer.
Stay within posted speed limits. Gas mileage decreases rapidly at speeds above 60 miles per hour.
Do 55-60 MPH instead of 65-70 MPH (or higher). The gas mileage improvement from doing this is well documented and very significant.
The sweet spot to get the best gas mileage for any vehicle varies by car.-- generally between 50 MPH and 60 MPH.
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» CORRECTION: "asked" should've been "ask." Sorry.
Posted by: HughScott
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on May 12, 2008 3:37 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These are an incredible waste and huge source of CO2..
The Coal Seam Fires in China are so big they can be seen now from Space..
Coal burns underground needing only 15% of the oxygen it requires to sustain burn above ground..
Much of the pollution in California comes from China it follows the pollution belt and the currents right across the Pacific..
There are Coal Seam fires which produce nothing no heat except in our atmosphere, or steel just burning on almost every continent but in China they are the worst..
A total waste and huge source of both CO2 and Global Warming..
One in Pennsylvania has been burning for over 40 years..!
The technology now exists to put these out which would create jobs..but there is no international pressure being put on China to deal with this threat to our planet and waste and that's why Kyoto was to say the least flawed...
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» RE: Coal Seam Fires in China [The Chinese have environmental,
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: fanny666 on May 12, 2008 3:42 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether we are oxidizing hydrocarbons like petroleum or oxidizing carbohydrates like ethanol, we are still oxidizing carbon molecules. This is what needs to stop.
I understand that there is a need to fuel machines which are already designed for combustion power (today's cars, jets, lawnmowers, etc) but what I want to know is how can we help move away from the combustion model altogether?
I know that I'll get flamed for even mentioning it, but there is a reason many environmentalists think that nuclear energy is the answer for now. It does not involve burning things for fuel, the technology is already there, and it immediately replaces oil or coal's energy output without adding any more carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.
If the "climate crisis" really is urgent, then this is what we can do NOW, and work on developing better solar and wind technologies in the meantime.
I will add that I have not yet read anything on nuclear energy that seemed devoid of emotional rhetoric. Everything from "my" side of the political fence strikes me as fear-mongering.
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» RE: Environmentalists for Nuclear energy [Do the math
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: nvironmentalists for Nuclear energy [Do the math
Posted by: Squarehead
» Sources for your numbers?
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Sources for your numbers?
Posted by: Squarehead
» Solar thermal is great... for deserts
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Solar thermal is great... for deserts
Posted by: Squarehead
» My experience is that anti-nuclear power articles are short on specifics and long on emotion
Posted by: fanny666
Comments are closed-
Posted by: williameon on May 12, 2008 3:56 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is upon us.
The Oil Pushers Power is waning.
Their Star is falling.
Soon they will expire
Along with their Fossilized System.
Good Riddance and
Good Bye!
Let the Good Times Roll!
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Posted by: Sparks56 on May 12, 2008 4:21 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The human race had a great run. The good news is that we will leave a detailed record of how we blew off life in the the most beautiful place in the universe. I wonder what those who discover our relics, be they evolutionary or extra-terrestrial, will think of a race that was so smart, and in the end, so stupid.
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» RE: Listen to Rush
Posted by: bifheart
» RE: Listen to Rush
Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Listen to Rush
Posted by: bifheart
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Posted by: hower2b on May 12, 2008 6:50 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Animal on May 12, 2008 9:30 PM
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» Not Lifeless
Posted by: Sparks56
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Posted by: mindtrvlr on May 12, 2008 11:30 PM
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Posted by: blogbooks on May 12, 2008 11:49 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The upper classes need not worry about 4 dollar gas. They can afford it at 8 or 80 dollars a gallon just the same.
Frankly, it seems clear to me that this sort of thing is already taking place. More of the wealthy/elite are coming on board with the environmental movement. They control the markets and they set the prices.
As a mere average Joe I have to wonder what all this means for me and people like me. Inevitably it must mean a return to an existence of subsistence farming, poverty, ignorance, and misery. Affluence, abundance, wealthy, and happiness are incompatible with the environmentalists vision of the future.
Amusingly enough, all of the efforts in this regard are for naught. India and China are growing at rates that nullify any steps the Western world takes to reduce its environmental impact. All we will accomplish is a reduction in our standard of living.
I'm fairly sure I'll be dead or at least retired before the combined forces of the elite and the environmental movement completely destroy the good life in America. Having grown up in and enjoyed an affluent America at the apex of human civilization, I can say that I'm glad I won't be here to see the return to dirt farming, ignorance, and brutishness that the green left longs to reclaim.
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» RE: The only way for such action to happen in our system is via the markets
Posted by: Sparks56
» You don't know your history. These past few decades have been the greatest in human history.
Posted by: blogbooks
» true ! .. but, sustainability was not a goal, 'limits to growth' a forgotten concept
Posted by: stilldreaming
» RE: You don't know your history. These past few decades have been the greatest in human history.
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: The only way for such action to happen in our system is via the markets
Posted by: yankabroad
» RE: The only way for such action to happen in our system is via the markets
Posted by: yankabroad
» RE: The only way for such action to happen [mixing your Zeroes?
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: fanny666 on May 13, 2008 10:36 AM
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Posted by: otto on May 13, 2008 12:14 PM
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» RE: Absolutely my Fellow Steward
Posted by: Purple Girl
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 13, 2008 11:26 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
blog-entry/Dan-Ms-Blog/
Cost-Solar-Power/300005422
The Cost of Solar Power From Dan M.'s Blog
by Dan M.
"One source that seems good is solarbuzz.com(1)(2). From the
name, it sounds like a pro solar energy source, but the data seem
to be realistic.
From the first referenced page at this site, we see that residential
costs have dropped 6% to 37.59 cents/kwH, while
commercial/wholesale costs have dropped 0.6% between July
2000 and November 2007 to 21.37 cents/kwH. "
"For comparison purposes, the wholesale price of electricity was
0.06 cents/kwH. "
Dividing the solar cost by the wholesale grid price, we see that
solar power costs 356.2 to 626.5 times as much as electricity from
the wholesale grid. That is during the daytime. At night, the
cost of solar power is much higher because you have to add the
cost of energy storage, the cost of converting the energy to store
it, the cost of converting the energy back, and all of the
inefficiencies. You would be lucky to get 5% efficiency overall
for stored energy, so multiply by at least 20 purely because of
inefficiency. Double or multiply by some larger number the
capital cost to cover the cost of storage. Solar power is
unaffordable at night.
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» RE: The cost of solar power is [Yeah Right!
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Especially compared to Clean, Cheap, Nuclear:) energy:) !
Posted by: Beck
» huh? way too high? Its free!
Posted by: yale
» RE: Paid Lobbist???
Posted by: Purple Girl
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 13, 2008 11:32 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
electricity connected to it. That would be a house selling for
$150,000 where I live or about $1 Million in Silicon Valley. A 4-
kilowatt solar photovoltaic system costs about $34,000 according
to http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/environment
/2007-08-26-solar_N.htm.
23 kw divided by 4 kw = 5.75
So to get the required 23 kw we need $34,000 times 5.75.
$34,000 times 5.75 =$195,500
The same source also says: "Like wind power, solar energy is
spotty, working at full capacity an average 20% to 30% of the
time."
To be safe, take the 20% which equals 1/5 th of the time, so we
need 5 times as many solar panels to provide a whole day's worth
of energy. If you include off-peak, the 4 KW is reduced. Then
there are cloudy days, etc. $195,500/(1/5) = $977,500. Now we
see that we really need $977,500 worth of solar panels for our
$150,000 house. But I didn't include batteries, control system,
inverter, transformer, installation cost, building permit, the angle
of the sun at my latitude, energy lost in the batteries and
transistors, perhaps rotating the roof to continually face the sun,
etc. Did I do the computation wrong? Perhaps, but what I came
up with is that just solar panels raised the price of my $150,000
house to $1,127,500. If solar panels were subsidized by the
government, you would have to pay the same price, but you would
pay part of it as taxes.
Let's look at the Roof Area Covered: Solar energy from straight
up doesn't happen here, but if it did, the total solar energy onto 1
square yard is about 1 kilowatt. Solar cells are 16% efficient
according to the source above at the present time. We get 160
watts per square yard from our solar cells if the sun is at right
angles to the solar panel. We need 23 kw. 23kw divided by 160
watts/square yard = 143.75 square yards = 1293.75 square feet.
So if the sun is directly overhead of our solar panels, we need
1293.75 square feet of them. That would be 40 feet by 32.34
feet. But the sun is not directly overhead. Guess an angle. The
sine of 45 degrees is about .7. Dividing the 32.34 feet by 0.7 I
get 46.2 feet. So the solar cells cover the whole roof. The whole
roof has to slant southward at the right angle to catch the most
sunlight at winter solstice, or the whole roof has to rotate to follow
the sun. The average house is designed wrong for a rotating roof
that slants in only one direction.
Another source
http://www.wind-works.org/articles/costofiraqwarandwind.html
http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=34245
http://www.wind-works.org/bio.html
says that solar costs $10 Million/megawatt and wind costs $2
Million/Mw. That is greatly different from the prices above.
Paul Gipe also says solar works 1000 hours per year and wind
works 2000 hours per year. Since 1 year = 8766 hours, you have
to multiply the solar cost by 8.766 and the wind cost by 4.383 to
get a whole year's worth of energy. So solar really costs $87.66
Million per megawatt and wind really costs $8.766 Million per
megawatt not counting the cost of storing energy and the energy
lost in storage. Since energy conversions are inefficient, having
to convert and store the energy may multiply your costs by 10.
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» RE: Another estimate for solar power
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Another estimate for solar power [trying to correct the dis-information
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Had industry heeded Our call in the '70's- bugs would be out!
Posted by: Purple Girl
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 14, 2008 10:21 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
asked me, "But what about nuclear waste? Will it not poison the
whole biosphere and persist for millions of years?"" I knew this
to be a nightmare fantasy wholly without substance in the real
world. I also knew that the natural world would welcome nuclear
waste as the perfect guardian against greedy developers, and
whatever slight harm it might represent was a small price to pay.
One of the striking things about places heavily contaminated by
radioactive nuclides is the richness of their wildlife. This is true
of the land around Chernobyl, the bomb test sites in the Pacific,
and areas near the United States' Savannah River nuclear weapons
plant of the Second World War. Wild plants and animals do not
perceive radiation as dangerous, and any slight reduction it may
cause in their lifespans is far less a hazard than is the presence of
people and their pets. It is easy to forget that now we are so
numerous, almost anything extra we do in the way of farming,
forestry and home building is harmful to wildlife and Gaia. The
preference of wildlife for nuclear waste sites suggests that the best
sites for its disposal are the tropical forests and other habitats in
need of a reliable guardian against their destruction by hungry
farmers and developers."
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Posted by: mindtrvlr on May 15, 2008 12:04 AM
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Posted by: yankabroad on May 16, 2008 7:41 AM
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They don't just publish anyone.
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Posted by: FedUpinNJ on May 17, 2008 11:08 AM
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Posted by: Purple Girl on May 18, 2008 3:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is time we make the 'Religious Right' prove their faith, their Devotion by focusing their energies on more important Task than blocking gay Marriage, Protesting (bombing) abortion clinics and Certianly Preaching about how th eWorld will End - a waste of time and an insult to any deity- it is not our place to decide and certainly NOT our place to Determine. At the very lest it is irrelevant how and when it will end- it does not negate our Responsiblity.so when I happen to be philosphically attacked by some self anointed 'Warrior of God' I demand they prove their missions validity on this basic Principle- What have you done as a Steward Today?What havce you done to help your fellow man, Our descendants, Our most precious Gift the Earth and OUR other Charges?Note PETA misses the fact we are innately Omniovoes- designed by a God or nature to thrive from both types of food. To deny such a reality is also a rejection of God and Nature. If the Steward fails to met his own basic needs - he will fail to meet all others.Granted we could cut down on meat consumption- But who would offer a lion a Salad as it's only sustenance?That would be not only bad animal Husbandry, it would be neglect & abuse. Also how sure are we a Carrot does not scream when shedded?
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