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Environment

A Nuclear Energy Renaissance Wouldn't Solve Our Problems, But It Would Rip Us Off

By Christian Parenti, The Nation. Posted May 6, 2008.


Talk of a nuclear renaissance is a dangerous distraction from the real changes we need to make to wean ourselves off oil.
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If you listen to the rhetoric, nuclear power is back. Smashing atoms will replace burning carbon-based coal, gas and oil. In the face of a disaster movie-like future of runaway climate change -- bringing drought, floods, famine and social breakdown -- carbon-free nukes are cast as the deus ex machina to save us at the last minute.

Even a few greens support nuclear power -- most famously James Lovelock, father of the Gaia theory. In the popular press, discussion of nuclear energy is dominated by its boosters, thanks in part to sophisticated industry PR.

In an effort to jump-start a "nuclear renaissance," the Bush Administration has pushed one package of subsidies after another. For the past two years a program of federal loan guarantees has sat waiting for utilities to build nukes. Last year's appropriations bill set the total amount on offer at $18.5 billion. And now the Lieberman-Warner climate change bill is gaining momentum and will likely accrue amendments that will offer yet more money.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) expects up to thirty applications to be filed to build atomic plants; five or six of those proposals are moving through the complicated multi-stage process. But no new atomic power stations have been fully licensed or have broken ground. And two newly proposed projects have just been shelved.

The fact is, nuclear power has not recovered from the crisis that hit it three decades ago with the reactor fire at Browns Ferry, Alabama, in 1975 and the meltdown at Three Mile Island in 1979. Then came what seemed to be the coup de grâce: Chernobyl in 1986. The last nuclear power plant ordered by a U.S. utility, the TVA's Watts Bar 1, began construction in 1973 and took twenty-three years to complete. Nuclear power has been in steady decline worldwide since 1984, with almost as many plants canceled as completed since then.

All of which raises the question: why is the much-storied "nuclear renaissance" so slow to get rolling? Who is holding up the show? In a nutshell, blame Warren Buffett and the banks -- they won't put up the cash.

"Wall Street doesn't like nuclear power," says Arjun Makhijani of the Institute for Energy and Environmental Research. The fundamental fact is that nuclear power is too expensive and risky to attract the necessary commercial investors. Even with vast government subsidies, it is difficult or almost impossible to get proper financing and insurance. The massive federal subsidies on offer will cover up to 80 percent of construction costs of several nuclear power plants in addition to generous production tax credits, as well as risk insurance. But consider this: the average two-reactor nuclear power plant is estimated to cost $10 billion to $18 billion to build. That's before cost overruns, and no U.S. nuclear power plant has ever been delivered on time or on budget.

As Dieter Helm, an Oxford professor and leading economic expert on energy markets, has found, there never has been and never will be a nuclear power program totally dependent on the market.

Sixty years ago, the technology was swathed in manic space-age optimism -- its electricity was going to be "too cheap to meter." While that wasn't true, nuclear power did serve a key role in the cold war: spent nuclear fuel rods are refined for weapons-grade plutonium and enriched uranium. That fact aside, rarely has so much money, scientific know-how and raw state power been marshaled to achieve so little. By some estimates, an investment of several hundred billion dollars has led to a U.S. nuke industry of 104 operating plants -- about a quarter of the global total -- that produces a mere 19 percent of our electricity.

In fact, the sputtering decline of nuclear power has been one of the greatest industrial failures of modern times. In 1985 Forbes called the nuke industry "the largest managerial disaster in history."

Atomic optimism run amok caused the largest municipal bond default in U.S. history. In 1983 Washington Public Power Supply System abandoned three nuke plants in midconstruction. The projects were plagued by massive cost overruns -- one infamous section of piping was reinstalled seventeen times, safety inspections were blatantly ignored, incompetent contractors were allowed to continue work and on and on. When the project finally died, unfinished costs had ballooned to $24 billion, and the utility walked away from $2.25 billion worth of bonds.

That project, like many others, drowned in the financial riptides of rising interest rates that were the central feature of the "Volcker recession" of the early '80s. (That was when Federal Reserve chairman Paul Volcker smashed inflation by jacking the Fed's interest rate from 8 percent in 1979 to more than 16 percent in 1982.) But nukes were also killed by the corruption and incompetence that so often plague large state projects, like Boston's Big Dig, the New Orleans levees, space-based weapons systems and Iraq's reconstruction.

Another reason atomic energy is so expensive is that its accidents are potentially catastrophic, and activists have forced utilities to build in costly double and triple safety systems. Right-wing champions of atom-smashing blame prohibitive costs on neurotic fears and unnecessary safety measures. They have a point in that safety is expensive, but safety is hardly excessive -- details on that in a moment.

More important is the fact that nuclear fission is a mind-bogglingly complex process, a sublime, truly Promethean technology. Let's recall: it involves smashing a subatomic particle, a neutron, into an atom of uranium-235 to release energy and more neutrons, which then smash other atoms that release more energy and so on infinitely, except the whole process is controlled and used to boil water, which spins a turbine that generates electricity.

In this nether realm, where industry and science seek to reproduce a process akin to that which occurs inside the sun, even basic tasks -- like moving the fuel rods, changing spare parts -- become complicated, mechanized and expensive. Atom-smashing is to coal power, or a windmill, as a Formula One race-car engine is to the mechanics of a bicycle. Thus, it costs an enormous amount of money.

Worldwide, about twenty nuclear power plants are being built, but most are in Asia and Russia and are closely linked to nuclear weapons programs. Japan and France have large nuke programs, but both countries heavily subsidize their plants, use a single design and built their fleets not to make profits but to ensure some minimum strategic energy independence and, for France, to build an atomic arsenal.

Even if a society were ready to absorb the high costs of nuclear power, it hardly makes the most sense as a tool to quickly combat climate change. These plants take too long to build. A 2004 analysis in Science by Stephen Pacala and Robert Socolow, of Princeton University's Carbon Mitigation Initiative, estimates that achieving just one-seventh of the carbon reductions necessary to stabilize atmospheric CO2 at 500 parts per billion would require "building about 700 new 1,000- megawatt nuclear plants around the world." That represents a huge wave of investment that few seem willing to undertake, and it would require decades to accomplish.

None of this has stopped the Bush Administration and Congress from channeling more money toward nukes. The current push to build nukes began in 2002, when the Administration launched its Nuclear Power 2010 program, which sought to spur construction of at least three major nuclear power plants. Then came the U.S. Energy Policy Act of 2005, which offered three major forms of subsidy. New nuclear power plants could get production tax credits, federal loan guarantees and construction insurance against cost overruns and delays -- together worth $18.5 billion.

The notion that nukes make sense and are the version of green preferred by grown-ups is being conjured by a slick PR campaign. The Nuclear Energy Institute -- the industry's main trade group -- has retained Hill and Knowlton to run a greenwashing campaign.

Part of their strategy involves an advocacy group with the grassroots-sounding name the Clean and Safe Energy Coalition. At the center of the effort are former EPA chief Christine Todd Whitman and former Greenpeace co-founder turned corporate shill Patrick Moore. (Moore is also a huge champion of GMO crops, which are notorious for impoverishing farmers in developing economies and using massive amounts of pesticides.) The industry also places ghostwritten op-eds under the bylines of scientists for hire.

All the major environmental groups oppose nuclear power. But the campaign is having some impact at the grassroots: the online environmental journal Grist found that 54 percent of its readers are ready to give atomic energy a second look; 59 percent of Treehugger.com readers feel the same way. In other words, people who understand climate change are feeling downright desperate.

But even the Oz-like magic of corporate spin, public subsidies and presidential speechifying have their limits. In late December the man whose name is synonymous with sound money turned his back on nuclear power.

Warren Buffett's MidAmerican Nuclear Energy Company scrapped plans to build a plant in Payette, Idaho, because no matter how many times its managers ran the numbers (and they spent $13 million researching it), they found that it simply made no sense from an economic standpoint.

South Carolina Electric and Gas has also suspended its two planned reactors, citing costs as the key factor. But the company says, "We remain very upbeat about the future of nuclear power."

If a nuke plant breaks ground soon, it will likely be NRG Energy's double-reactor plant, set to be erected in South Texas. But that one has also been delayed.

The fact that new nukes make little economic sense does not mean that old nukes are not profitable. In fact, these nightmarishly complex radioactive boondoggles have recently been turned into cash cows. Utilities achieved this remarkable transformation the old-fashioned way -- they used socialism.

Beginning in the 1990s, most American energy markets were deregulated one state, one region at a time. In the process many old utilities were broken up into different firms: some generated power, others sold it, still others handled transmission. One of the crucial details of deregulation was allowing utilities to pass on to rate payers the "stranded costs" -- the outstanding mortgage payments of their nuclear power plants.

Perhaps the most egregious example of this occurred in California. In 1996 the State Assembly passed legislation -- written by utility lobbyists -- that allowed Southern California Edison and Pacific Gas & Electric to hold rates high as prices dropped nationally. The two utilities were on target to receive $28 billion over four years. This money would pay off the stranded costs of the Diablo Canyon and San Onofre atomic plants. Halfway through the deal the California power crisis hit and deregulation was put on hold -- utilities were forced to stop selling off their assets, and third-party speculation in energy markets was halted. But the state floated bonds to mop up the remaining stranded costs.

Similar deals were struck across the country. Once unburdened of old debts, the nuke plants -- now having relatively low overhead costs -- became valuable assets. A new generation of firms began buying them up. By 2002 ten companies owned seventy of the nation's 104 reactors. Among the big players in this game are Exelon, Entergy and Dominion Resources.

Many of the old plants went for a song. A particularly disturbing example of this is Vermont Yankee, a thirty-five-year-old reactor purchased by Entergy seven years ago for a mere $180 million. That's about half the price it would cost to build an equal-sized coal plant or wind farm.

Now Entergy is trying to run the power station as hard and as long as possible. In 2006 it received approval to increase power output at the plant by 20 percent. This "uprate" means the plant operates with 20 percent more pressure, heat and flow. And in just one year it earned Entergy $100 million in profits. Over the last decade, almost all U.S. nuclear power plants have received uprates, but few match Vermont Yankee's full-throttle, 120 percent capacity.

Just after the uprate, one of Vermont Yankee's twenty-two cooling towers collapsed. That's right -- it crumbled and fell over. Entergy officials said the collapse "baffled" them. The plant's spokesman, Rob Williams, admitted that "our inspections were not effective enough." Reached by phone, Gregory Jaczko, a commissioner at the NRC, admitted that the collapse "didn't look good." But he went on to reassure the public that the plant is essentially safe.

Now Entergy is petitioning the NRC to extend its operating license so that it can run the old plant for twenty years longer than was intended. Nationally, forty-eight facilities have had their licenses extended. In fact, despite critics' arguments that aging plants pose serious dangers, no license renewal requests have ever been denied.

"The NRC falls all over itself to facilitate the industry," says Ray Shadis, a consultant who has worked for both environmental groups and on NRC panels and research projects. The Project on Government Oversight and other watchdog groups point to a revolving door between the commission's staff and the nuclear industry. To take just one example, in 2007 former commissioner Jeffrey Merrifield joined the Shaw Group after spending his last months on the commission pushing to ease restrictions for precisely the type of construction activities that were the Shaw Group's specialty.

Diana Sidebotham, an antinuclear activist in Putney, Vermont, twenty miles north of the Vermont Yankee plant, thinks Entergy and the NRC are courting disaster. In 1971 Sidebotham helped found the New England Coalition on Nuclear Pollution, and she has been trying to shut down nuclear plants ever since. Her hillside farm looks out over the ridge lines of the Connecticut River Valley.

"One of these days a plant will blow," says Sidebotham, with just a touch of a genteel but steely New England accent. "And when it does, it will cause a great many deaths and widespread suffering, not to mention extraordinary economic damage."

Accidents do happen. In 2002 the Davis-Besse Nuclear Plant in Ohio was forced to close for two years after inspectors found a football-sized corrosion hole in the reactor's six-inch-thick steel cap. The plant was very close to a major accident. Repairs cost $600 million.

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama says he opposes any more relicensing of old nuclear plants. His rival Hillary Clinton has stopped just short of saying that. However, as was reported by the New York Times, Obama has close ties to the nuclear industry, particularly the Illinois-based Exelon, which has contributed at least $227,000 to his campaigns. Two of his top advisers have links to the firm, including his chief strategist, David Axelrod, who was a consultant for Exelon. Obama voted yes on the 2005 Energy bill, which lavished subsidies on oil, coal, ethanol and nukes; Senator Clinton, like almost half the Senate Democrats, voted against it. The Obama campaign says that as President he would not cut nuclear subsidies, only that he would boost subsidies for green power.

Activists like Sidebotham say the real issue is not how to build more nukes but how to handle the old, decrepit plants and their huge stockpiles of radioactive waste. Most of the atomic plants in this country are reaching the end of their life span; seventeen have been decommissioned. And increasingly the question is what to do with the accumulated waste -- the extremely radioactive spent fuel rods. This is dangerous stuff. If exposed to air for more than six hours, spent fuel rods spontaneously combust, spewing highly poisonous radioactive isotopes far and wide. This spent fuel will be hot for 10,000 years.

Since 1978 the Energy Department has been studying Yucca Mountain in Nevada as a possible permanent repository for atomic waste. But intense opposition has held up those efforts. In the meantime, the partially burned uranium is stored at the old power plants, in pools of water called "spent fuel pools." Lying near great cities, on crucial river systems, in small rural towns, these pools are potentially a far greater risk than a reactor meltdown. Scenarios for how terrorists might attack and drain them range from driving a truck bomb to crashing an explosive-laden plane into them.

Just after 9/11, when security at nuke plants was supposed to be high, lead pellets started raining down on the containment structure and guard shack at Maine Yankee, in Wiscasset. (The plant has since been decommissioned.) A group of four men in camouflage, armed and intent on killing, had infiltrated into a swamp and were firing weapons from somewhere in the reeds. This "cell" turned out to be four local duck hunters who had no idea they were hitting the power plant.

Their foray against innocent mallards proved just how easy an attack could be. Activists demanded, and got, a safety review, which led to a shockingly blunt NRC document called "Report on Spent Fuel Pool Accident Risk," or NUREG-1738. The report found that containment structures, such as that at Vermont Yankee, "present no substantial obstacle to aircraft penetration." According to the NRC, a fire in the spent fuel pool at a reactor like Vermont Yankee (which stores 488 metric tons of spent fuel) would cause 25,000 fatalities over a distance of 500 miles if evacuation was 95 percent effective. But that evacuation rate would be almost impossible to achieve. The NRC claims to have the threat of terrorism under control, but for reasons of national security it can't explain how. And after 9/11 it admitted, "At this time, we could not exclude the possibility that a jetliner flying into a containment structure could damage the facility and cause a release of radiation that could impact public health."

Humanity's Faustian bargain with atomic power is a story still in its early stages. No one knows how long nuclear facilities will last or what will happen to them during future social upheavals -- and there are bound to be a few of those during the next 10,000 years.

This much seems clear: a handful of firms might soak up huge federal subsidies and build one or two overpriced plants. While a new administration might tighten regulations, public safety will continue to be menaced by problems at new as well as older plants. But there will be no massive nuclear renaissance. Talk of such a renaissance, however, helps keep people distracted, their minds off the real project of developing wind, solar, geothermal and tidal kinetics to build a green power grid.

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Christian Parenti is the author of The Freedom: Shadows and Hallucinations in Occupied Iraq (New Press) and a visiting fellow at CUNY's Center for Place, Culture and Politics.

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RE: nuclear power is too expensive and risky to attract the necessary commercial investors
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 3:27 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is a lie. The problem is protesters.
The low carbon source of the electricity has to be nuclear
to replace the base load capacity of coal.
Read: "Environmentalists for Nuclear Energy", by B. Comby
English edition, 2001, 345 pp. (soft cover), 38 Euros
TNR Editions, 266 avenue Daumesnil, 75012 Paris, France;
ISBN 2-914190-02-6
order from: http://www.comby.org/livres/livresen.htm
Read a review of this book by the American Health Physics Society at:
http://www.comby.org/media/
articles/articles.in.english/
HealthPhysics-NUC-July2002.htm

www.ecolo.org
Association of Environmentalists For Nuclear Energy [EFN]

Nuclear power is 30% cheaper than the coal power we have been
duped into using. We have 5000 years worth of nuclear fuel if
we recycle it rather than waste it as we do now. Nuclear is also
the safest, cleanest and cheapest form of energy available.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Chernobyl again
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 3:29 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A friend of mine from Oak Ridge National Laboratory wrote to
me: "The reactor that had the accident at Chernobyl was very out-
of-date (1st generation) design that has to be precisely controlled
to prevent cooling water from boiling. Water carries away heat
and moderates far better than bubbles, and as bubbles form in
water, the reactor goes increasingly unstable. What caused
Chernobyl to blow its top was residual water in the core suddenly
going to high pressure steam and erupting into a steam explosion.
Since the building top was simply resting by its weight on the
walls, not a containment vessel at all, the steam explosion burped
the top off its position allowing outside air in, subsequently
igniting a carbon fire." The United States and other Western
countries DO NOT now build and do not now posses or operate
ANY reactors of such primitive design. Nor do we allow
containment buildings to have easily removable tops.
Containment buildings in the Western hemisphere are required to
be pressure vessels.
The Chernobyl accident released only 200 tons of
radioactive material, as much as a coal-fired power plant would
release in 7 years and 5 months. The Chernobyl accident had a
shorter "stack" than coal-fired power plants. The radioactive
material was released in a short time at ground level. That is why
the Chernobyl accident had impact. The Three Mile Island
incident did NOT release a noticeable amount of radiation into its
neighborhood because it had a good containment building and
because it was a more modern design.
The reason is that the Soviet Union didn't spend money on R&D
for nuclear safety. The US did. Over 60 years, American
reactors have become so safe it is ridiculous. We have way
overspent on nuclear reactor safety, driving up the cost of
electricity. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, coal fired electric
power plants kill 24,000 people per year in the US according to
Discover magazine. Reactors built in the US in 2008 are nothing
like the very first reactor ever, built in the US in 1944. Soviet
built reactors were just copies of the 1944 reactor.
The book: "Environmentalists for Nuclear Energy", by B. Comby
has more truthful information on this if you are interested. Don't
believe the urban legends that were started by coal companies.
Order the book from: http://www.comby.org/livres/livresen.htm
See: http://www.ecolo.org for more information on the book.
Most books on the subject in most libraries may be there because
of coal industry pressure.

I have no connection with the nuclear power industry. Nobody is
paying me to post this. I have never worked for the nuclear
power industry.

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» RE: Chernobyl again Posted by: willymack
» RE: Chernobyl again Posted by: CatDad
Browns Ferry & Three Mile Island
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 3:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All Western nuclear power plants have Containment Buildings
which protect the world outside from anything that can possibly
happen in the core. Western containment buildings are why
Chernobyl cannot happen in the US. Containment buildings are
pressure vessels, unlike the building the Chernobyl reactor was in.
The walls, ceiling and floor are a minimum of 1 meter [about 39
inches] thick and HEAVILY reinforced with steel. There is so
much steel reinforcing rod that when you look at one under
construction, you wonder where there will be any room for
concrete. There is no explosion that could ever happen inside the
core or the containment building that would have any chance at all
of making a hole in the containment building. The containment
building is many times stronger than required to contain any
explosion that could happen there.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

In the popular press, discussion of nuclear energy is dominated by its detractors
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 3:38 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
thanks in large part to sophisticated COAL industry PR and
rumor mongering. Christian Parenti types have written
every one of the articles that have appeared on Alternet.

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RE: Nuclear power has been in steady decline
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 3:42 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
32 nations now have nuclear power plants.

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Who is holding up the show?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 3:49 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christian Parenti, Rebecca Solnit and other people who
know nothing about it. Journalists who know nothing
about science and engineering. Ignorant and paranoid
people who have been duped by the coal industry.

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carbon-free nukes are cast as the deus ex machina
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 3:55 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is nothing magical or miraculus about it. It is ordinary
science and engineering that produces 14.7 Million tons LESS
CO2 per 1000 Megawatts per year than a coal fired equivalent.

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no U.S. nuclear power plant has ever been delivered on time or on budget
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 4:03 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
since coal industry inspired protests and endless pointless
delaying tactics have needlessly run up the time and cost. Of
course the coal industry has a need to prevent nuclear power.
The coal industry would loose any fair competition with nuclear
power and the coal industry is a $100 Billion business in the US
alone. $100 Billion/year is plenty of reason for yet another anti-
nuclear article.

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......big nuke industry stooge
Posted by: Smiggsy on May 6, 2008 4:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
AssMiner; you big industry stooge, stop hogging all comments. If you want to tell your own propaganda the way it is, start your own damn blog.

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never will be a nuclear power program totally dependent on the market
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 4:15 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if the coal industry has anything to say about it. Meanwhile, the
burning of coal is putting 100 times as much radiation into your
environment. Besides carbon, coal also contains: URANIUM,
ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY, Antimony, Cobalt, Nickel,
Copper, Selenium, Barium, Fluorine, Silver, Beryllium, Iron,
Sulfur, Boron, Titanium, Cadmium, Magnesium, Thorium,
Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium, Chlorine, Aluminum,
Chromium, Molybdenum and Zinc. There is so much of these
elements in coal that cinders and coal smoke are actually valuable
ores. We should be able to get all the uranium and thorium we
need to fuel nuclear power plants for centuries by using cinders
and smoke as ore. Remember that, to get a given amount of
energy, you need on the order of 100 MILLION TIMES as much
coal as uranium. That means the coal mine has to be 100 million
times larger than the uranium mine, not counting the recycling of
nuclear fuel. We can keep our mountains and forests and our
health by switching from coal to nuclear power.

Chinese industrial grade coal is sometimes stolen by
peasants for cooking. The result is that the whole family
dies of arsenic poisoning because Chinese industrial grade
coal contains large amounts of arsenic.

I have zero financial interest in nuclear power, and I never have
had a financial interest in nuclear power. My sole motivation in
writing this is to avoid extinction by global warming.

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Welfare for Wall Street
Posted by: NoPCZone on May 6, 2008 4:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Aside from any other consideration, Nukes don't work without massive public subsidy. No insurer will underwrite the full liability of one of these monsters- much less all of them. The funny thing is that the same morons that advocate free markets seek to use the government to cover the huge liability problem.
If the 9-11 attackers had hit the plant just upriver from the city the ENTIRE NYC area would be a dead zone. Imagine what kind of liability those numbers look like.

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spent nuclear fuel rods are refined for weapons-grade plutonium and enriched uranium
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 4:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not in this country. We WASTE all that expensive reactor fuel.
The government has its own fast breeders to make plutonium for
bombs. Plutonium is good reactor fuel.
We don't recycle nuclear fuel because spent fuel is valuable and people steal it.
The place it went that it wasn't supposed to go to is Israel. This happened in a
small town near Pittsburgh, PA circa 1970. A company called Numec was in the
business of reprocessing nuclear fuel. I almost took a job there, designing a
nuclear battery for a heart pacemaker. [A nuclear battery would have the
advantage of lasting many times as long as any other battery, eliminating many
surgeries to replace batteries.] Numec did NOT have a reactor. Numec "lost"
half a ton of enriched uranium. It wound up in Israel. The Israelis have fueled
both their nuclear power plants and their nuclear weapons by stealing nuclear
"waste." It could work for any other country, such as Iran or the United States.
It is only when you don't have access to nuclear "waste" that you have to do the
difficult process of enriching uranium.
Numec is no longer in business. Terrorists can't compete with Mossad and
Israeli dual citizens who are CEOs of companies like Numec. Israeli nuclear
weapons are exact duplicates of American nuclear weapons. All persons who
were "born of Jewish mothers" are citizens of Israel regardless of any other fact.
Since the US can't and shouldn't discriminate, the reprocessing of nuclear fuel in
the US stopped. That was the only politically possible solution at that time,
given that private corporations did the reprocessing. My solution would be to
reprocess the fuel at a Government Owned Government Operated [GOGO]
facility. At a GOGO plant, bureaucracy and the multiplicity of ethnicity and
religion would disable the transportation of uranium to Israel or to any
unauthorized place. Nothing heavier than a secret would get out.

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RE: rarely has so much money.....been marshaled to achieve so little.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In France, nuclear power produces 80% of France's electricity at a
30% lower price. Nuclear power consistently undersells coal
fired power in the US despite everything the coal industry has
done. In France, the industry pays royalties to the government.
There are negative subsidies. France sells electricity to Germany
and other countries that try to get along without nuclear power.

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» Exactly... Posted by: Scientz
RE: the largest managerial disaster in history
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 4:47 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just like the mess the Republicans have made of every social
program they could get their hands on. If managemen'ts goal is
to make it not work, what do you expect?

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heavily subsidize their plants
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
France DOES NOT subsidize nuclear power.
Nuclear power subsidizes France.

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These plants take too long to build
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 4:59 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because of people like Christian Parenti.
Coal fired power plants kill 24000 people per year with their
smoke. Nuclear power plants kill nobody.

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Odds of Dying from X according to the 2003 National Safety council
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 5:04 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1 heart disease 1 in 5
2 cancer 1 in 7
3 stroke 1 in 24
4 motor vehicle accident 1 in 84
5 suicide 1 in 119
6 falling 1 in 218
7 firearm assault 1 in 314
8 pedestrian accident 1 in 626
9 drowning 1 in 1008
10 motorcycle accident 1 in 1020
11 fire or smoke 1 in 1113
12 bicycle accident 1 in 4919
13 air/space accident 1 in 5051
14 accidental firearm 1 in 5134
15 accidental electrocution 1 in 9969
16 alcohol poisoning 1 in 10048
17 hot weather 1 in 13729
18 hornet, wasp or bee sting 1 in 56789
19 legal execution 1 in 62468
20 lightning 1 in 79746
21 earthquake 1 in 117127
22 flood 1 in 144156
23 fireworks 1 in 340733

Causes that are missing from the above:
nuclear power plant accident
medical mistake
meteor impact
cold weather
starvation [in the US]
dehydration
smallpox
war
terrorist strike
boredom

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to stabilize atmospheric CO2 at 500 parts per billion
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 5:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WRONG. It is parts per MILLION.
"would require "building about 700 new 1,000- megawatt nuclear
plants around the world." That represents a huge wave of investment
that few seem willing to undertake, and it would require decades to
accomplish."
It has to get done by 2015 or we are cooked. We had better get
busy.

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the bylines of scientists for hire
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 5:17 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not gettin paid to do this, but
Christian Parenti IS getting paid.

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» Sounds like jealousy Posted by: Beck
NOT All the major environmental groups oppose nuclear power.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 5:22 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What about www.ecolo.org
Association of Environmentalists For Nuclear Energy [EFN]
The Blue Party in Europe is like the Green Party but pro nuclear.

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people who understand climate change are feeling downright desperate.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 5:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Environmental policy = energy policy
Energy policy = environmental policy
because Global Warming
can lead to Hydrogen Sulfide gas coming out of the oceans.

Hydrogen Sulfide gas will Kill all people. Homo Sap will go
EXTINCT unless drastic action is taken.

October 2006 Scientific American

"EARTH SCIENCE
Impact from the Deep
Strangling heat and gases emanating from the earth and sea, not
asteroids, most likely caused several ancient mass extinctions.
Could the same killer-greenhouse conditions build once again?
By Peter D. Ward
downloaded from:
http://www.sciam.com/
article.cfm?articleID=
00037A5D-A938-150E-
A93883414B7F0000&
sc=I100322
....................Most of the article omitted......................
But with atmospheric carbon climbing at an annual rate of 2 ppm
and expected to accelerate to 3 ppm, levels could approach 900
ppm by the end of the next century, and conditions that bring
about the beginnings of ocean anoxia may be in place. How soon
after that could there be a new greenhouse extinction? That is
something our society should never find out."

Press Release
Pennsylvania State University
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, Nov. 3, 2003
downloaded from:
http://www.geosociety.org/meetings/2003/prPennStateKump.htm
"In the end-Permian, as the levels of atmospheric oxygen fell and
the levels of hydrogen sulfide and carbon dioxide rose, the upper
levels of the oceans could have become rich in hydrogen sulfide
catastrophically. This would kill most of the oceanic plants and
animals. The hydrogen sulfide dispersing in the atmosphere would
kill most terrestrial life."

www.astrobio.net is a NASA web zine. See:

http://www.astrobio.net/
news/modules.php?op=
modload&name=News&
file=article&sid=672

http://www.astrobio.net/
news/modules.php?op=
modload&name=News&
file=article&sid=1535

http://www.astrobio.net/
news/article2509.html

http://astrobio.net/news/
modules.php?op=modload
&name=News&file=article
&sid=2429&mode=thread
&order=0&thold=0

These articles agree with the first 2. They all say 6 degrees C or
1000 parts per million CO2 is the extinction point.

The global warming is already 1.3 degree Farenheit. 11 degrees
Farenheit is about 6 degrees Celsius. The book "Six Degrees" by
Mark Lynas agrees. If the global warming is 6 degrees
centigrade, we humans go extinct. See:
http://www.marklynas.org/
2007/4/23/six-steps-to-hell-
summary-of-six-degrees-as-
published-in-the-guardian

"Under a Green Sky" by Peter D. Ward, Ph.D., 2007.
Paleontologist discusses mass extinctions of the past and the one
we are doing to ourselves.

ALL COAL FIRED POWER PLANTS MUST BE
CONVERTED TO NUCLEAR IMMEDIATELY TO AVOID
THE EXTINCTION OF US HUMANS. 32 countries have
nuclear power plants. Only 9 have the bomb. The top 3
producers of CO2 all have nuclear power plants, coal fired power
plants and nuclear bombs. They are the USA, China and India.
Reducing CO2 production by 90% by 2050 requires drastic action
in the USA, China and India. King Coal has to be demoted to a
commoner. Coal must be left in the earth. If you own any coal
stock, NOW is the time to dump it, regardless of loss, because it
will soon be worthless.
I have no financial connection to the nuclear power industry.

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spent fuel
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 5:36 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
France profitably recycles spent fuel and puts it back into reactors
as new fuel.

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Bechtel and General Electric and Exelon - major marketing spree
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on May 6, 2008 5:43 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, the corporate interests want to raid the U.S. treasury and build more multi-billion dollar cash cows.

That's all this is about. They coordinate through their PR outfit, the Nuclear Energy Institute.

Sunlight, wind and biofuels can meet all our energy needs, but we can leave the nuclear power plants on as we go about shutting down all the coal-fired ones, can't we?

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» RE: Corn Subsidies don't help Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Most of the food grown for livestock is corn Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
partially "burned" uranium
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 5:44 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WRONG. Oxidation has nothing to do with nuclear power but
uranium does burn well. Nuclear fuel is ALREADY uranium
oxide. The nuclear fission process is not burning. Nuclear
fission produces on the order of 100 Million times as much energy
as burning the same number of carbon atoms.

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NOT 25,000 fatalities over a distance of 500 miles
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Background radiation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation

Background radiation is the ionizing radiation from several natural radiation
sources: sources in the Earth and from those sources that are incorporated in our
food and water, which are incorporated in our body, and in building materials and
other products that incorporate those radioactive sources; radiation sources from
space (in the form of cosmic rays); and sources in the atmosphere which primarily
come from both the radon gas that is released from the earth's surface and
subsequently decays to radioactive atoms that become attached to airborne dust
and particulates, and the production of radioactive atoms from the bombardment
of atoms in the upper atmosphere by high-energy cosmic rays. Since 1945 it also
comes from low levels of global radioactive contamination due to nuclear testing.

............shortened.............

Natural background radiation

Natural background radiation comes from three primary sources: cosmic radiation,
terrestrial sources, and radon. The worldwide average background dose for a
human being is about 2.4 mSv per year. This exposure is mostly from cosmic
radiation and natural isotopes in the Earth.

Cosmic radiation

The Earth, and all living things on it, are constantly bombarded by radiation from
outside our solar system of positively charged ions from protons to iron nuclei.
This radiation interacts in the atmosphere to create secondary radiation that rains
down, including X-rays, muons, protons, alpha particles, pions, electrons, and
neutrons. The dose from cosmic radiation is largely from muons, neutrons, and
electrons.

The dose rate from cosmic radiation varies in different parts of the world based
largely on the geomagnetic field and altitude.

Terrestrial sources

Radioactive material is found throughout nature. It occurs naturally in the soil,
rocks, water, air, and vegetation. The major radionuclides of concern for terrestrial
radiation are potassium, uranium and thorium. Each of these sources has been
decreasing in activity since the birth of the Earth so that our present dose from
potassium-40 is about 1⁄2 what it would have been at the dawn of life on Earth.
Some of the elements that make up the human body have radioactive isotopes,
such as potassium-40, so there is also a very small amount of internal radiation.

Radon

Radon gas seeps out of uranium-containing soils found across most of the world
and may concentrate in well-sealed homes. It is often the single largest contributor
to an individual's background radiation dose and is certainly the most variable in
the United States. Many areas of the world, including Cornwall and Aberdeenshire
in the United Kingdom have high enough natural radiation levels that nuclear
licensed sites cannot be built there—the sites would already exceed legal radiation
limits before they opened, and the natural topsoil and rock would all have to be
disposed of as low-level nuclear waste.

............shortened.............

The exposure for an average person is about 360 millirems/year, 80 percent of
which comes from natural sources of radiation. The remaining 20 percent results
from exposure to artificial radiation sources, such as medical X-rays and a small
fraction from nuclear weapons tests.

............shortened.............

Reference:
http://www.unscear.org/unscear/en/publications/2000_1.html

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wind
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 5:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wind energy requires that Direct Current [DC] be transmitted
over enormous areas [more than one continent] to provide
continuous power because wind varies from minute to minute.
Direct current is required because the voltage and frequency of
AC would change minute by minute with wind speed. Long
distance DC transmission requires superconducting cable. DC
just doesn't go far otherwise.
Reference:
http://www.terrawatts.com: Liquid nitrogen is still required.
http://www.alternet.org/environment/69888

Following the http://www.terrawatts.com lead, you arrive at the
statement that the "high temperature" superconductor will be
cooled by liquid nitrogen. See:
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?
ArticleID=942#_When_will_HTS
The need for liquid nitrogen or liquid helium is the Achilles heal
of this scheme. It isn't really a "room" temperature
superconductor. Any accidental warming brings the grid to a
halt. Energy is required to make liquid nitrogen. Dry nitrogen
must be cooled to 77 degrees Kelvin to make it a liquid. [Zero
degrees Kelvin is absolute zero, -273.15 degrees Centigrade.]
Liquid helium is at 4 degrees Kelvin or colder. Superconduction
usually means a requirement for liquid helium. Liquid Helium is
very expensive. The cable has to be thermally insulated and
cooled its entire length. The cable also must be physically
separated into "out" and "return" wires, and the force between the
2 wires will be large. As stated in the article I gave you the URL
of, it won't be cheap.

Any warming above the superconducting temperature or too much
magnetic field will cause the cable to quit superconducting at that
point. The cable will instantly melt, creating an electric arc. All
of the energy that was flowing through that spot will instead be
dumped there, creating an explosion. The power grid will be
disabled for some time since repairing a superconducting cable is
not as easy as splicing a wire. Is this the kind of electric service
you really want? We really don't have the technology yet.

What about storing wind energy as compressed air? Check the
efficiency, the availability of leak proof caverns, etc. Storing
wind energy as compressed air is a pie in the sky. What about
storing wind energy in batteries? We can't make that many
batteries. Another pie in the sky.

Wind energy wastes energy because the wind varies so much that
a "spinning reserve" is required in most locations. If you are
running the steam powered generator at the spinning reserve rate,
you may as well use the steam as your energy source and forget
about the wind. Wind turbines are decorations, not sources of
energy for the grid until we have room temperature
superconductors. There are special locations and circumstances
where wind energy is useful, but wind cannot replace coal and
nuclear any time soon. Nuclear power is the only kind that can
actually take coal fired power plants off line. If allowed to
compete, nuclear power would already have replaced coal fired
power because nuclear is 30% cheaper and 24000 American lives
per year safer.

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» Re: DC power... Posted by: bornxeyed
solar
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 6:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://science-community.sciam.com/
blog-entry/Dan-Ms-Blog/
Cost-Solar-Power/300005422

The Cost of Solar Power   From Dan M.'s Blog  
by Dan M.
"One source that seems good is solarbuzz.com(1)(2). From the
name, it sounds like a pro solar energy source, but the data seem
to be realistic.
From the first referenced page at this site, we see that residential
costs have dropped 6% to 37.59 cents/kwH, while
commercial/wholesale costs have dropped 0.6% between July
2000 and November 2007 to 21.37 cents/kwH. "
"For comparison purposes, the wholesale price of electricity was
0.06 cents/kwH. "

Dividing the solar cost by the wholesale grid price, we see that
solar power costs 356.2 to 626.5 times as much as electricity from
the wholesale grid. That is during the daytime. At night, the
cost of solar power is much higher because you have to add the
cost of energy storage, the cost of converting the energy to store
it, the cost of converting the energy back, and all of the
inefficiencies. You would be lucky to get 5% efficiency overall
for stored energy, so multiply by at least 20 purely because of
inefficiency. Double or multiply by some larger number the
capital cost to cover the cost of storage. Solar power is
unaffordable at night.

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geothermal
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 6:07 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What do you do when the extraction of geothermal energy causes
the volcano to erupt?

To get geothermal power, you drill into rock that presently plugs a
volcano or very deeply into some other place, crack the rock so
that water can flow between wells, and then you cool the cracked
rock with a fluid, probably water. Cooling the rock causes
contraction of the cooled rock since most things expand when
heated. The contraction causes further cracks. Water lubricates
rock and magma, allowing earthquakes to happen more easily and
making magma flow faster and "better."
The cracks and the wells are perfect places for magma to flow,
and you have drilled into a place that is close to molten rock.
You have just made the volcano erupt, even if there wasn't a
volcano there in the first place. The only question is: "How long
before these geothermal energy schemes start killing people and
other living things by creating volcanoes?"

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» it's official now! Posted by: bornxeyed
ASTEROID MINER: SOME ETIQUETTE PLEASE!!!
Posted by: Krotos on May 6, 2008 6:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Will you please KEEP IT IN A SINGLE COMMENT THREAD (i.e., reply to yourself), rather than start a new one for each of your points?

I even agree with a fair amount of what you say, and I'm sure other people would too. But this is going to be overshadowed by our annoyance at 30-odd consecutive top-level posts from the same person.

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Conservation and Renewable Energy
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on May 6, 2008 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Zero Energy Homes are being built around the United States, with the current glut in the housing market perhaps it is time that States introduced new building codes on new construction requiring all new Residential construction to meet Zero Energy Housing standards.

Most electricity usage occurs during the day, precisely when the sun is out. The States should require electric companies to buy back electricity from houses with solar panels.

Offshore Wind farms provide higher wind speeds and steady wind power that isn't nearly as random as many of the onshore wind farms. The east and west coasts are the most populous parts of the U.S. and also very close to high sources of potential wind energy from offshore wind farm sites.

Geothermal Power is also a large potential source of energy. Iceland with their hot springs generates a large portion of their electricity from Geothermal energy.

Unfortunately there is no panacea, we have blown off the issue of developing better cleaner sources of energy for way too long. Now we are running out of oil and natural gas and global warming is showing us that even if we weren't we shouldn't continue to change the makeup of the atmosphere like we have been doing by burning these fuels.

France had the right idea when it came to nuclear energy, creating a working template of a reactor and then making all of them the same. It was as much for nuclear weapons though as it was for energy. No one to date has figured out what to do with all the excess radioactive material. If it was as easy to recycle as AsteroidMiner says then wouldn't we be doing it rather than talking about burying it in Utah or leaving it in the reactors?

If we are going to subsidize the creation of power plants why don't we subsidize sustainable renewable energy sources.

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Are There Dangers?
Posted by: Southern Gal on May 6, 2008 8:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are there dangers associated with solar and wind powers? How about putting massive public subsidies into sources of energy that we can depend on to be there for us and that have fewer associated health and safety risks? Let's hope that Obama gets out of bed with the nuclear industry.

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» RE: Are There Dangers? Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Are There Dangers? NOT Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Are There Dangers? NOT Posted by: suprmark
Go Solar: at a dollar a watt
Posted by: Gaubladt on May 6, 2008 8:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Flexible solar panels are now being set up for production : The estimated cost is less than a dollar a watt. see:
http://www.nanosolar.com/

They make any investment in nuclear power generation obsolete.

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Why should we trust Big Nuclear especially since once they're given a deregulation pass,
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT on May 6, 2008 8:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the worst of nuclear will be thrust upon us. Namely, breed reactors will most likely be used to produce more WMDs than will be used to produce reusable uranium for energy. There will be more dumping grounds generally unsafe and riskier spots for nuclear waste. Third, if our thirst for oil hasn't already done it, count on nuclear to finish strangling the world's water supplies.

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Susanne Vandenbosch
Posted by: Susanne on May 6, 2008 8:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christian Parenti you understate significantly the length of time that spent fuel remains radioactive. It remains radioactive for a million years not 10,000 years. In 2005 a federal district court rejected the EPA's draft radiation standards for the Yucca Mountain repository (located 100 miles north of Las Vegas) because they covered only the first 10,000 years. You also overstate the difficulty of understanding nuclear fission. Even children's books explain it fairly accurately. Also, after its discovery many scientists expressed regrets that they had not made the discovery as it seemed so obvious afterwards.

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how did this country produce so many sociopaths?
Posted by: e rice on May 6, 2008 9:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and how did they end up in so many positions of authority?

whether it's nuclear energy, the war in iraq, health care, privatizing social security, the media, the most important aspects of our lives have been determined, or may be determined, by insanely greedy, dishonest, manipulative men, who have bought the elected officials who were supposed to look after the welfare of the people who voted for them.

at least the opponents of nuclear energy have organized and have acheived some degree of success.

now, if only the rest of the middle class would do the same thing, this country might have a future as something other than a third world nation.

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Analysis of deception
Posted by: Joffan on May 6, 2008 9:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd like to say that Christian Parenti has made many errors, but when someone is speaking as an authority on a subject, it is their responsibility to avoid obvious mistakes. As such I have to say that Mr Parenti is often caught lying in this article. Many statements with some grain of truth are presented so deceptively that the effect is the same.

Let's begin....

IRONY: Starting with "If you listen to the rhetoric". I chuckled; rhetoric is the lifeblood of nuclear power opposition. Witness the rest of the first paragraph.

DECEPTION: Loan guarantees are not loans, so there is no money sitting waiting for power plant builders to pick up. Furthermore these offered loan guarantees have to be paid for by the construction company. That's right - the first (and probably only) flow of money is into the government.

ERROR: Not just five or six: As of today, May 6, 15 proposed reactors at 9 sites are being considered by the NRC for licensing.

DECEPTION: "Wall Street doesn't like nuclear power" - Makhijani is not an authority, just part of the anti-nuclear circular quotation machine. What Wall Street doesn't like is risk, and the major financial risk of nuclear power plant construction is that the regulations will change - a government action, open to political effects. This has been countered in two ways; specifically by the licensing process, and politically by the adoption of part of that aspect of the construction risk by the government.

LIE: "too cheap to meter", the ol' anti-nuke strawman. It's not hard to find the full sentence and context. Read it and work it out for yourselves.

LIE: nuclear power's spent nuclear fuel rods are NOT reprocessed for weapons grade plutonium or enriched uranium.

TRUE: WPPSS was a managerial disaster. However the DECEPTION here is the implication that it cost $24 billion; that was the projection, not the incurred cost.

DECEPTION: nuclear fission, while it requires neutrons to do their stuff, does not control them individually. The geometry and status of fuel rods certainly requires careful design and monitoring; but the material configuration is what is controlled, not the particles. So the "mind-bogglingly complex" aspects are kept safely in the reasearch labs.

ERROR: nuclear fission is nothing like what happens inside the sun.

DECEPTION: Nuclear power costing "an enormous amount of money" omits to mention that it produces a great deal of electricity for that money; so that the costs per unit power production are comparable to other technologies.

LIE: Almost all nuclear power plants, including those under construction mentioned, are not "linked to nuclear weapons programs".

DECEPTION: While the energy policies of the last few years have encouraged consideration of nuclear plant construction, almost no money has flowed to it yet. And as above: loan guarantees will have to be bought by industry, money flowing into the government.

BIZARRE COMPLAINT: The NEI has a PR campaign - so what? Every business and trade org has a PR campaign. Special interest groups are practicallly all PR campaign; that's how they work.

DECEPTION: Warren Buffett has evaluated one nulcear power project and decided it wasn't right for him. That's what feasibility studies are about. It doesn't say anything about other projects - on the contrary, it suggests that it's the particular plant rather than the general principle that he didn't like.

ERROR: South Carolina Electric and Gas have not shelved anything. They submitted their license application for a two reactor plant on March 31.

That's about halfway through the article; if I can face it, I may go through the rest in a follow-on comment. However, I think that the low standard of accuracy that Mr Parenti adopts is already clear.

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» You read me wrongly Posted by: Joffan
» RE: You read me wrongly Posted by: Quannah
» More Quannah dogma Posted by: Joffan
» RE: More Quannah dogma Posted by: Quannah
» Nuthin' wrong with rhetoric Posted by: Joffan
» Whose condescension? Posted by: Joffan
Global Cooling. The Earth's Temperature Fell By 0.7C in 2007
Posted by: opmoc on May 6, 2008 9:59 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All four agencies that track Earth's temperature (the Hadley Climate Research Unit in Britain, the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, the Christy group at the University of Alabama, and Remote Sensing Systems Inc in California) report that it cooled by about 0.7C in 2007. This is the fastest temperature change in the instrumental record and it puts us back where we were in 1930. If the temperature does not soon recover, we will have to conclude that global warming is over.

It is time to put aside the global warming dogma, at least to begin contingency planning about what to do if we are moving into another little ice age, similar to the one that lasted from 1100 to 1850.

There is no doubt that the next little ice age would be much worse than the previous one and much more harmful than anything warming may do. There are many more people now and we have become dependent on a few temperate agricultural areas, especially in the US and Canada. Global warming would increase agricultural output, but global cooling will decrease it.

Millions will starve if we do nothing to prepare for it (such as planning changes in agriculture to compensate), and millions more will die from cold-related diseases.

There is also another possibility, remote but much more serious. The Greenland and Antarctic ice cores and other evidence show that for the past several million years, severe glaciation has almost always afflicted our planet.

The bleak truth is that, under normal conditions, most of North America and Europe are buried under about 1.5km of ice. This bitterly frigid climate is interrupted occasionally by brief warm interglacials, typically lasting less than 10,000 years.

The interglacial we have enjoyed throughout recorded human history, called the Holocene, began 11,000 years ago, so the ice is overdue. We also know that glaciation can occur quickly: the required decline in global temperature is about 12C and it can happen in 20 years.

The next descent into an ice age is inevitable but may not happen for another 1000 years. On the other hand, it must be noted that the cooling in 2007 was even faster than in typical glacial transitions. If it continued for 20 years, the temperature would be 14C cooler in 2027.

By then, most of the advanced nations would have ceased to exist, vanishing under the ice, and the rest of the world would be faced with a catastrophe beyond imagining.

full article

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» Temperature baloney Posted by: Joffan
» Response from RealClimate.org Posted by: AsteroidMiner
Nuclear Power Is Not A "Renewable Source of Energy"
Posted by: maxpayne on May 6, 2008 10:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/story?id=47296

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confusing
Posted by: richholland on May 6, 2008 12:28 PM   
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in some europe countries you can obtain "Green electricity"' partly made by palmpits (destructs the rainforest...partly from nuclair plants.

It is strange the GREEN PARTIES donot protest since they are in parliament

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Energy
Posted by: vangogh69 on May 6, 2008 1:15 PM   
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We have to face the fact that oil was a once in a lifetime thing and there are no known sources of energy which can compete for effeciency. Now we face some terrible options: either invest in technologies which could further pollute the environment (coal, gas); invest in nuclear which we don't know how to dispose of yet and which, in the case of an accident, could kill thousands; re-invest in public transportation and disencourage sprawl; grow our own food domestically and scale back on imports; or pray and hope for the best.

That last one was a joke.

I personally don't think given that we've no way of using nuclear energy without producing waste we can't dispose of and the short life-span of nuclear plants (30+ years), we should invest in nuclear energy. Much better instead to scale back, turn the roads back into countryside, and force people to live packed closely together again.

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a wind generator on every rooftop...
Posted by: Bearzerker on May 6, 2008 3:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... not a big one but a small one...

if all people had a small wind generator on there roofs... and every light post had a small wind generator... and so on and so on... that would take a HUGE bite out of the electrical grid wouldn't it?
maybe a couple solar panels on the roof too...

If everyone does there share, the costs of producing energy should fall and consumption decline... less demand but more productivity

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Aftermath
Posted by: Last Chance on May 6, 2008 7:20 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every nuclear power plant requires a huge nearby building to cool the spent fuel rods, which must be very carefully attended for at least a thousand years, or they melt down and explode like Chernoble. But promoters of the nuclear power industry hate to think about that. They just want the multi-million dollar contracts and let the future take care of itself.

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» Why the swimming pool.... Posted by: Joffan
A longer RE opmoc's cooling mistake
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 9:10 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We know all about the "cooling" event. For the decade of 2007-
2017, you probably won't notice the global warming, but in the
following decade, the climate will make up for lost time. The
ENSO is a Pacific Ocean oscillation and that is pretty big, but it is
not global. You are confusing American weather with global
climate. We also know all about Milankovitch cycles. As I have
stated above, Global Warming CAN DRIVE HOMO SAPIENS
TO EXTINCTION. An ice age cannot cause the extinction of
Homo Sap. And we have a very effective means of stopping an
ice age. All we have to do is burn a lot of coal, like we are doing
now. You see, in the 19th century, we did the experiment of
measuring the absorption spectrum of carbon dioxide and a lot of
other gasses. Check out the MIT Wavelength Tables, an
encyclopedic warehouse of spectra. We have already guaranteed
that there will not be an ice age soon. The problem is that we
overshot the mark and we are continuing to overdo it.

Snow is a whole lot easier to deal with than H2S is to breathe.
We can't allow the possibility of the oceans turning hot and sour
and outgassing H2S. H2S is a poison gas. The moisture in your
lungs converts it to H2SO4 [battery acid] and your lungs dissolve.
Not a pleasant way to go.

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HOW nuclear fuel is renewed.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 9:22 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have enough nuclear fuel for FIVE THOUSAND YEARS

according to "Environmentalists for Nuclear Energy", by B. Comby. "Breeding"
fissionable fuel and recycling nuclear fuel greatly extends the supply. We have
many possible uranium mines that we haven't started mining. The reasons we are
not doing so are political and psychological. Most people have an irrational fear
of anything nuclear caused by coal industry propaganda.

Everything, including yourself, is made of atoms. All atoms have nuclei. You
have many atomic nuclei inside yourself since you are made of atoms. The
simplest nucleus is one proton. That would be a hydrogen atom. An oxygen
atom has 8 protons and either 8, 9 or 10 neutrons in its nucleus. All other nuclei
also have neutrons. Uranium has 92 protons and either 143 or 146 neutrons. If it
has 143 neutrons it is U235. If it has 146 neutrons, it is U238. Nuclear fuel is
only 2% to 8% U235, the kind that fissions/divides, providing energy. The rest is
U238 that doesn't fission. A nuclear reaction happens when a neutron is captured
by a nucleus. If a U235 nucleus captures a neutron, the nucleus and the atom split
approximately in half and 2 or 3 neutrons are released because the 2 smaller
nuclei don't need so many neutrons. If a U238 nucleus captures a neutron, it
ejects an electron and the neutron becomes a proton. The U238 thus becomes
Plutonium 239. Plutonium is fissionable, which means that plutonium is a good
fuel. If you add Thorium to the fuel, you can make more fissionable uranium. If
a Thorium atom nucleus captures a neutron, it ejects an electron and the neutron
becomes a proton. The Thorium atom thus becomes U233. U233 is fissionable.

Depending on the design of the reactor and the mix of the fuel, the fuel % in the
reactor can either grow or shrink. It is kind of like the fuel gauge can go either up
or down, but it is more like the reactor can run hotter or cooler over time. The
temperature is kept constant by adjusting the control rods. A breeder reactor is a
reactor designed to make the fissionable part of the fuel load grow rapidly.
In the US, fuel is left in the reactor for about 10 years, or 10% of the fuel is
replaced each year. The reprocessing step sorts out the fuel and puts the
percentage of fissionable fuel back to the starting percentage. In the process,
plutonium may be removed and either wasted or used as fuel. If we add thorium
to the fuel, we can make more uranium than we put in. Since the earth contains
more than twice as much thorium as uranium, it would be wise to make thorium
into uranium. By reprocessing nuclear fuel, we get an enormous, many centuries
long fuel supply. The products of fission are also removed when fuel is
reprocessed. These are just other ordinary atoms that are no longer useful as fuel.
The quantity is very small. We should reprocess fuel to keep the fuel load at the
correct percentage of fissionable fuel for the particular reactor design. Instead, we
go through the expensive process of making more "virgin" fuel for each new fuel
load. This greatly increases the price you pay for electricity. We are not
reprocessing nuclear fuel for political reasons.

I have zero financial interest in nuclear power, and I never have had a financial
interest in nuclear power. My sole motivation in writing this is to avoid extinction
by H2S gas. H2S is how global warming kills everybody if we don't act.

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Dangers of wind turbines
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 6, 2008 9:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Health, hazard, and quality of life near wind power installations
How Close is Too Close?
downloaded from
http://www.alternet.org/environment/54682/?page=5
Nina Pierpont, MD, PhD*
March 1, 2005
A nacelle (generator and gearbox) weighing up to 60 tons atop a
265 ft. metal tower, equipped with 135 ft. blades, is a significant
hazard to people, livestock, buildings, and traffic within a radius
equal to the height of the structure (400 ft) and beyond. In
Germany in 2003, in high storm winds, the brakes on a wind
turbine failed and the blades spun out of control. A blade struck
the tower and the entire nacelle flew off the tower. The blades and
other parts landed as far as 1650 ft (0.31 mile) from the base of
the tower (Note that all turbines discussed in this article are
"upwind," three-bladed, industrial-sized turbines. "Downwind"
turbines have not been built since the 1980's.) Given the date, this
turbine was probably smaller than the ones proposed for current
construction, and thus could not throw pieces as far. This distance
is nearly identical to calculations of ice throw from turbines with
100 ft blades rotating 20 times per minute (1680 ft)"

And the above is only the so-called tip of the iceberg. If interested,
just google "dangers of wind turbines" - there's plenty of sites to
choose from to learn about the dangers.

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» But think Posted by: suprmark
James Lovelock on Nuclear Waste
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 14, 2008 10:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The Revenge of Gaia" page 91: "A television interviewer once
asked me, "But what about nuclear waste? Will it not poison the
whole biosphere and persist for millions of years?"" I knew this
to be a nightmare fantasy wholly without substance in the real
world. I also knew that the natural world would welcome nuclear
waste as the perfect guardian against greedy developers, and
whatever slight harm it might represent was a small price to pay.
One of the striking things about places heavily contaminated by
radioactive nuclides is the richness of their wildlife. This is true
of the land around Chernobyl, the bomb test sites in the Pacific,
and areas near the United States' Savannah River nuclear weapons
plant of the Second World War. Wild plants and animals do not
perceive radiation as dangerous, and any slight reduction it may
cause in their lifespans is far less a hazard than is the presence of
people and their pets. It is easy to forget that now we are so
numerous, almost anything extra we do in the way of farming,
forestry and home building is harmful to wildlife and Gaia. The
preference of wildlife for nuclear waste sites suggests that the best
sites for its disposal are the tropical forests and other habitats in
need of a reliable guardian against their destruction by hungry
farmers and developers."

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