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Environment

Face It, We All Aren't Going to Become Vegetarians

By George Monbiot, Monbiot.com. Posted April 18, 2008.


It's better for the planet to avoid eating meat, but the reality is we have to make it more sustainable for people who don't want to be vegetarians.
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Never mind the economic crisis. Focus for a moment on a more urgent threat: the great food recession that is sweeping the world faster than the credit crunch.

You have probably seen the figures by now: The price of rice has risen by three-quarters in the past year, that of wheat by 130 percent. There are food crises in 37 countries. One hundred million people, according to the World Bank, could be pushed into deeper poverty by the high prices. But I'll bet you have missed the most telling statistic. At 2.1 billion tons, last year's global grain harvest broke all records. It beat the previous year's by almost 5 percent. The crisis, in other words, has begun before world food supplies are hit by climate change. If hunger can strike now, what will happen if harvests decline?

There is plenty of food. It is just not reaching human stomachs. Of the 2.13 billion tons likely to be consumed this year, only 1.01 billion, according to the United Nations' Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), will feed people.

I am sorely tempted to write another column about biofuels. From this morning all sellers of transport fuel in the United Kingdom will be obliged to mix it with ethanol or biodiesel made from crops. The World Bank points out that "the grain required to fill the tank of a sports utility vehicle with ethanol ... could feed one person for a year."

Last year global stockpiles of cereals declined by around 53 million tons; this gives you a rough idea of the size of the hunger gap. The production of biofuels this year will consume almost 100 million tons, which suggests that they are directly responsible for the current crisis. In the Guardian yesterday, British Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly promised that "if we need to adjust policy in the light of new evidence, we will." What new evidence does she require? In the midst of a global humanitarian crisis, we have just become legally obliged to use food as fuel. It is a crime against humanity in which every driver in this country has been forced to participate.

But I have been saying this for four years, and I am boring myself. Of course we must demand that our governments scrap the rules that turn grain into the fastest food of all. But there is a bigger reason for global hunger, which is attracting less attention only because it has been there for longer. While 100 million tons of food will be diverted this year to feed cars, 760 million tons will be snatched from the mouths of humans to feed animals. This could cover the global food deficit 14 times. If you care about hunger, eat less meat.

While meat consumption is booming in Asia and Latin America, in the United Kingdom it has scarcely changed since the government started gathering data in 1974. At just over 1 kilogram per person per week, it's still about 40 percent above the global average, though less than half the amount consumed in the United States. We eat less beef and more chicken than we did 30 years ago, which means a smaller total impact. Beef cattle eat about 8 kilograms of grain or meal for every kilogram of flesh they produce; a kilogram of chicken needs just 2 kilograms of feed. Even so, our consumption rate is plainly unsustainable.

In his magazine The Land, Simon Fairlie has updated the figures produced 30 years ago in Kenneth Mellanby's book Can Britain Feed Itself? Fairlie found that a vegan diet grown by means of conventional agriculture would require only 3 million hectares of arable land (around half the current total). Even if the United Kingdom reduced its consumption of meat by half, a mixed farming system would need 4.4 million hectares of arable fields and 6.4 million hectares of pasture. A vegan Britain could make a massive contribution to global food stocks.

But I cannot advocate a diet I am incapable of following. I tried it for about 18 months, lost about 28 pounds, went as white as bone, and felt that I was losing my mind. I know a few healthy-looking vegans, and I admire them immensely. But after almost every talk I give, I am pestered by swarms of vegans demanding that I adopt their lifestyle. I cannot help noticing that in most cases their skin has turned a fascinating pearl grey.

What level of meat eating would be sustainable? One approach is to work out how great a cut would be needed to accommodate the growth in human numbers. The United Nations expects the population to rise to 9 billion by 2050. These extra people will require another 325 million tonnes of grain. Let us assume, perhaps generously, that politicians like Ms. Kelly are able to "adjust policy in the light of new evidence" and stop turning food into fuel. Let us pretend that improvements in plant breeding can keep pace with the deficits caused by climate change. We would need to find an extra 225 million tons of grain. This leaves 531 million tons for livestock production, which suggests a sustainable consumption level for meat and milk, some 30 percent below the current world rate. This means 420 grams of meat per person per week, or about 40 percent of the United Kingdom's average consumption.

This estimate is complicated by several factors. If we eat less meat, we must eat more plant protein, which means taking more land away from animals. On the other hand, some livestock is raised on pasture, so it doesn't contribute to the grain deficit. Simon Fairlie estimates that if animals were kept only on land that's unsuitable for arable farming, and given scraps and waste from food processing, the world could produce between a third and two-thirds of its current milk and meat supply. But this system then runs into a different problem. The FAO calculates that animal keeping is responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions. The environmental impacts are especially grave in places where livestock graze freely. The only reasonable answer to the question of how much meat we should eat is: as little as possible. Let's reserve it -- as most societies have done until recently -- for special occasions.

For both environmental and humanitarian reasons, beef is out. Pigs and chickens feed more efficiently, but unless they are free range you encounter another ethical issue: the monstrous conditions in which they are kept. I would like to encourage people to start eating tilapia instead of meat. It's a freshwater fish that can be raised entirely on vegetable matter and has the best conversion efficiency -- about 1.6 kilograms of feed for 1 kilogram of meat -- of any farmed animal. Until meat can be grown in flasks, this is about as close as we are likely to come to sustainable flesh eating.

Rereading this article, I see that there is something surreal about it. While half the world wonders whether it will eat at all, I am pondering which of our endless choices we should take. Here the price of food barely registers. Our shops are better stocked than ever before. We perceive the global food crisis dimly, if at all. It is hard to understand how two such different food economies could occupy the same planet, until you realize that they feed off each other.

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See more stories tagged with: hunger, global warming, climate change, vegetarian, vegetarianism, meat, food crisis

George Monbiot is the author Heat: How to Stop the Planet from Burning. Read more of his writings at Monbiot.com. This article originally appeared in the Guardian.

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You're boring me too, George
Posted by: g50 on Apr 18, 2008 12:55 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't it funny how his name is so similar to "moonbat"? Anyway, biofuels are a great way to run our machines given the decline in oil ya'll are no doubt yapping about (not that its false...) And they're pretty good for farmers who I hope we should all agree are good. Biofuels research will also make a lot of the biomass waste, as well as nonfood like switchgrass, workable over time. Probably not that much time but if you shut the whole enterprise down it will happen probably never.

Crime against humanity - my buttcheeks.

Nah but seriously, sure, make choices yourself. I don't think that the dispossessed eat less because we eat lots. I am pretty sure that these kinds of things are endemic and ancient, and that over the centuries, however long it takes, most starvation will be eliminated except by choice. You just gotta have faith in the system, which is the one thing lacking among the left crowd, what with its excessive shock at each "crime against humanity" that overlooks how long it takes to really change things. I mean, lifespans were like 40 years for most people for like what, 8,000 years? 15,000? 150,000? It's a marathon not a sprint.

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» meat is also a crime... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: meat is also a crime... Posted by: franny59
» The vegan netwar continues Posted by: pangolin
» Centuries? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Centuries? Posted by: g50
» life spans Posted by: e rice
» RE: life spans Posted by: g50
» RE: life spans Posted by: e rice
» RE: You're boring me too, George Posted by: Richard House
» RE: You're boring me too, George Posted by: levinson.eric
» CHOOSING to starve ????? Posted by: Tomover
Wake up george...
Posted by: Smartcookie on Apr 18, 2008 1:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... the average human doesn't give a fuck about the rest of humanity.

Count all the wars, everyday petty bickering, selfish greed, among people you know.

No one gives a shit enough to reduce their standard of living to help others, most people would kill another fellow citizen before they'd give up their HDTV's and Xbox 360's.

Am I entertained, is my stomach full?? Then who gives a fuck, I work xx number of hours a day, even if I do care, wtf can I do about it trapped in fucked up economic system and people who feel they aren't responsible for anyone but themselves?

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» RE: Wake up george... Posted by: Squarehead
» between europe and china Posted by: e rice
» Sadly . . . Posted by: Scientz
» RE: Sadly . . . Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Wake up george... Posted by: upHurled
» Of course they don't. Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: Smartcookie and CathyC.... Posted by: Smartcookie
» RE: Smartcookie and CathyC.... Posted by: Squarehead
Good Points
Posted by: Bill Cook on Apr 18, 2008 2:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I ate a vegetarian diet for two-and-a-half years and developed serious health problems. This body, at least, needs some meat; but not as much as a value meal lifestyle had conditioned me to expect.

For me, the key to eating for health has been learning to cook. Particularly, making my own salad dressing and soup stock. I cook with meat, but it's only one part of a larger ensemble. Creating great-tasting food from scratch helps me to hold my own against the oppressive availability of thrill and crash convenience food products.

Another way to accomplish less meat eating is to include salads and vegetable sides with meals.

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» RE: Good Points Posted by: Squarehead
» Ah, French cuisine! Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Good Points Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Good Points Posted by: wireup
» RE: Good Points Posted by: ladylawrence
Terrorist
Posted by: HeKnew on Apr 18, 2008 2:23 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's better for the planet to have a lot fewer people.


Direct Democracy

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» RE: Fool Posted by: eiu101
» RE: Terrorist Posted by: Persephone8
Why vegans were right all along, by George Monbiot:
Posted by: brucegfriedrich on Apr 18, 2008 3:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I prefer this essay by Monbiot:
Why vegans were right all along

Why vegans were right all along

Famine can only be avoided if the rich give up meat, fish and dairy

The Guardian

The Christians stole the winter solstice from the pagans, and capitalism stole it from the Christians. But one feature of the celebrations has remained unchanged: the consumption of vast quantities of meat. The practice used to make sense. Livestock slaughtered in the autumn, before the grass ran out, would be about to decay, and fat-starved people would have to survive a further three months. Today we face the opposite problem: we spend the next three months trying to work it off.
Our seasonal excesses would be perfectly sustainable, if we weren't doing the same thing every other week of the year. But, because of the rich world's disproportionate purchasing power, many of us can feast every day. And this would also be fine, if we did not live in a finite world.

By comparison to most of the animals we eat, turkeys are relatively efficient converters: they produce about three times as much meat per pound of grain as feedlot cattle. But there are still plenty of reasons to feel uncomfortable about eating them. Most are reared in darkness, so tightly packed that they can scarcely move. Their beaks are removed with a hot knife to prevent them from hurting each other. As Christmas approaches, they become so heavy that their hips buckle. When you see the inside of a turkey broilerhouse, you begin to entertain grave doubts about European civilisation.

This is one of the reasons why many people have returned to eating red meat at Christmas. Beef cattle appear to be happier animals. But the improvement in animal welfare is offset by the loss in human welfare. The world produces enough food for its people and its livestock, though (largely because they are so poor) some 800 million are malnourished. But as the population rises, structural global famine will be avoided only if the rich start to eat less meat. The number of farm animals on earth has risen fivefold since 1950: humans are now outnumbered three to one. Livestock already consume half the world's grain, and their numbers are still growing almost exponentially.

This is why biotechnology - whose promoters claim that it will feed the world - has been deployed to produce not food but feed: it allows farmers to switch from grains which keep people alive to the production of more lucrative crops for livestock. Within as little as 10 years, the world will be faced with a choice: arable farming either continues to feed the world's animals or it continues to feed the world's people. It cannot do both.

The impending crisis will be accelerated by the depletion of both phosphate fertiliser and the water used to grow crops. Every kilogram of beef we consume, according to research by the agronomists David Pimental and Robert Goodland, requires around 100,000 litres of water. Aquifers are beginning the run dry all over the world, largely because of abstraction by farmers.

... (edited for length; click on link for full article)

As a meat-eater, I've long found it convenient to categorise veganism as a response to animal suffering or a health fad. But, faced with these figures, it now seems plain that it's the only ethical response to what is arguably the world's most urgent social justice issue. We stuff ourselves, and the poor get stuffed.

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How much?
Posted by: Urstrly on Apr 18, 2008 4:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been wondering what the price of a Big Mac might be if we factored in the costs to the environment of raising cattle. Truly, the elimination of "fast" food would be a giant step toward solving some huge problems. It's terrible for our health, and it diverts grain from the truly hungry. I'll never go vegan, but a few meatless days a week are not a big sacrifice.

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» RE: How much? Posted by: leoforward
» RE: How much? Posted by: e rice
» RE: How much? Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
a little goes a long way
Posted by: richholland on Apr 18, 2008 4:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
travelling in Eastasia you will notice that meat mostly is used in the rice dishes or in the sauce.

If 50% of the European and Americans would eat vegetarian one day a week. how much would this save?

Donot despair, soon thousands of hungry people will enter Europe and the USA.
The Capitalists will not stop them, since they work for food only.

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Don't get it!
Posted by: Windwhistler on Apr 18, 2008 5:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been a vegetarian for 40 years, other than I sometimes eat a bit of fish, I am very close to being a vegan. I have not been in a hospital nor had any sickness of significance other than an occasional cold or upset stomach in these 40 years. My weight and blood pressure are normal.

Yes, I have carefully eaten a balanced diet, no processed food and have exercised almost daily. I take one general type vitamin pill a day.

This lifestyle sure the hell beats going to doctors and downing tons of medicine.

Also check out the latest anthropology. Early man was vegetarian. He only ate meat when he could steal kill from a lion. It gave him extra energy when he succeeded but it was not a regular thing.

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» RE: Don't get it! Posted by: kelethian
» RE: Don't get it! Posted by: fringedweller
» RE: Don't get it! Posted by: lilcheese71
Why vegan diets dont work.
Posted by: kelethian on Apr 18, 2008 5:29 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can tell you the simple biochemical reason why George and others have all these problems, even if they are getting all essential amino acids.

Too much potassium and magnesium, little if any sodium and calcium. This causes the mental irregularities, hypovolemia, and cardiac insufficiency that George has observed. Several other things are missing as well, like iron and zinc.

Im sure vegans think theyre the helathiest people in the world - right until the moment their heart stops.

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» RE: Why vegan diets dont work. Posted by: Persephone8
» RE: Why vegan diets dont work. Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Why vegan diets dont work. Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Why vegan diets dont work. Posted by: leoforward
» RE: Why vegan diets dont work. Posted by: threecolors
» RE: Why vegan diets dont work. Posted by: bornxeyed
The elephant in the room...
Posted by: Farasien on Apr 18, 2008 5:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is overpopulation. Unfortunately, the issue has, as usual, been ignored and pushed to the absolute fringes of political thought. Malthus predicted in his often-maligned paper that eventually, given that Earth is a finite environment, we would reach its biological carrying capacity. Once that happens in any given limited environment, an inevitable decline or series of decline events takes place to return to a balanced population load. That is, if we're talking about non-intelligent life. Humans, on the other hand, haven't taken our sheer numbers into consideration when talking about these sorts of problems. If we did a little more thinking and a little less breeding we might find the issues we keep screaming incessantly about, veganism included, might just go to solving themselves. I find it rahter interesting that people constantly talk about oil consumption, global warming, deforestation, limited resource depletion, erosion of respect or worth of life, financial collapse, etc. when the BASE PROBLEM is the sheer number of new assholes being born into the world every single day. Its doubly amusing when I read/hear these arguments by the new incarnation of the yuppie scumbag, the environmentally-conscious hipster parents of the new generation. There is nothing more hilariously ironic (and disgusting) than seeing some 30-something parent spout on about how environmentally friendly they are while trying to corral or even talk up their 4 brats (and another on the way! Yay?). You cannot be both an environmentalist AND and non-ZPG parent, period. They cancel each other out. If you have a family larger than ZPG, you cancel out everything you could possibly do to mitigate the problems your progeny will ultimately cause. Until we all come to understand and truly accept that the base issue isn't how much oil there is in the world, but how many new SOBs we keep shotgunning into it every single year that things even have the slightest hope of changing. Its because of this issue, and this issue alone that we, as a species, are about to enter the post-apocalyptic nightmare described in horrifying detail by the various works of distopian sci-fi writers.

But nevermind that... Didn't something happen on Idol last night, or did some irrelevant sports event happen or something? Ohmigod, like, did you, like, um, see ABC's 'presedential debate' last night? OMGWTFROTFLMAO...

Your TV is calling...

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» RE: Overpopulation? Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Overpopulation? Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: common knowledge Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: science or polemics Posted by: leafsong1
» Polemics Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Overpopulation? Posted by: Farasien
» RE: sniffle, sniffle Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Overpopulation? Posted by: Farasien
» Curious... Posted by: eiu101
» RE: Curious... Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Don't worry Posted by: eiu101
» pseudoveggie? Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: are you in favor of kissing my ass? Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: dang..... Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Pardon me..... Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Pardon me..... Posted by: leafsong1
» really great point... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: The elephant in the room... Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: The elephant in the room... Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: The elephant in the room... Posted by: leoforward
» RE: The elephant in the room... Posted by: leoforward
» Malthus was wrong Posted by: suprmark
Check out GoVeg.com/eco
Posted by: brucegfriedrich on Apr 18, 2008 8:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's partisan, but the facts are all sourced fully, so you can see what's so.

The U.N. "Livestock's Long Shadow" document, which you can Google, is also very useful.

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Read Livestocks' Long Shadow
Posted by: AdamG on Apr 18, 2008 8:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you google it, you'll find it. It is quite long- 700 pages. Bear in mind that much of the statistics are based on meat/animal products being raised in the industrial model being made available through market channels primarily for mass consumption.

As for the mixed farming versus vegan model there is some research out there- Rodale Institute has done some- but not enough.

As a disclaimer, I farm a mixed operation- poultry, sheep, cows, and fruit/veg- and would say animals are very important for many reasons. Saving energy by doing work that machines or humans usually do, their contribution to fertility(manure for compost), making unarable land productive, and just the emotional relationship one develops with animals are all reasons to integrate animals onto farms. And if people are to eat animal products, it should be from animals who have had a richer experience of life rather then one of mere servitude.

Other good reading, albiet polemic, are most of Micheal Pollan's books on the subject. Even though they are not strictly "scientific", his insights are none the less valid.

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The good of the planet is not the only reason we should not eat meat.
Posted by: Bayardtom on Apr 18, 2008 5:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In case you have not read the books by John Robbins, do yourself and the planet a favor and read - Diet for a New America, The Food Revolution, May All be Fed, and Reclaiming Our Health.
We could solve so many problems of the world by becoming vegan vegetarians. First, and probably the most important, the whole world could be fed by feeding people the enormous amounts of grain and beans that go into producing a few pounds of beef.
Then there's that pesky piece of information that eating animal products is killing us all. Meat and dairy products are the cause of most of the diseases that kill us - heart, stroke, diabetes, cancer etc. The facts are out there if you want to avail yourself of them.
It's tough reading but every person on the planet should be required to read Robbins' first book, Diet for a New America.
It would help in this education of the population if people like you would stop writing articles like this one and educate yourself to the truth about the subject.It would change your life for the better. Give it a chance, okay?

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» a question for you, mjbele Posted by: e rice
» no Posted by: e rice
» sorry, you're right... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» blood types and diet Posted by: e rice
healthy vegans
Posted by: grmartin on Apr 18, 2008 5:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a very healthy 58 year old vegan, and I do not look pale and icky. Vegans may find it hard - as do meat eaters - eating the right combination of foods for balanced nutrition. For instance, no milk products make it tough to get enough calcium. So I take a calcium suppliment. A healthy vegan also has to exercise, be socially happy, try to avoid stress, pollution, etc., the things everyone needs, to be healthy. Just avoiding animal products alone isn't going to make it.

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» RE: healthy vegans Posted by: the man with a dog
» RE: healthy vegans Posted by: grmartin
» healthy vegans who know nothing Posted by: bornxeyed
» shocking waste of resources Posted by: frantaylor
Best Vegan Info on the Web, fully sourced:
Posted by: brucegfriedrich on Apr 18, 2008 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Best resource for vegan info:
GoVeg.com

Best resource for veg meal plans, recipes, etc.:
VegCooking.com

Amazing video:
meat.org

Veg. and the environment, specifically:
GoVeg.com/eco

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what about 100% grass-fed beef?
Posted by: susanh8209 on Apr 18, 2008 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been vegetarian but I am currently eating grassfed beef for both environmental and health reasons. From an environmental standpoint, 100% grassfed beef uses no grain that could be eaten by people. Also, grass-covered land builds the soil and makes it healthier for a wide variety of animal life. Cows are made to eat grass; that's why they're called ruminants because they have four stomachs. From a health standpoint, 100% grassfed beef has a different fatty acid profile than grain-fed beef. Grain-fed beef is high in stearic acid, which is highly saturated and more likely to be stored in humans as excess fat. Grass-fed beef is higher in oleic acid (i.e., the monosaturated fat in olive oil) plus it contains conjugated linoleic acid, an essential fatty acid, that fights cancer. Dr. Mercola and the Weston A. Price Foundation have been writing about the benefits of 100% grassfed beef for years. It costs a little more but it tastes way better and it's worth it for the peace of mind. I'd much rather eat a cow that had lived its life outside chomping on grass than its unhappy feedlot relatives.

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» RE: wow Posted by: dudelette
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» Some Possible Sources... Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: wow Posted by: susanh8209
You're doing it wrong!
Posted by: ebishirl on Apr 18, 2008 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Note to Monbiot and anyone else who claims the lack of meat makes you weak, gray and sickly: You're doing it wrong. Many people around the world have thrived on vegetarian and near-vegetarian diets for millenia, and their food choices were undoubtedly far more limited than ours (at least in the developed world) today.

Also, while I'm usually a great fan of Monbiot's, it bothers me that he seems to make little distinction between vegetarianism and veganism. Vegetarians typically eat eggs, cheese and other dairy products, while vegans don't. I'll agree that veganism is more challenging a diet than vegetarianism (I'm a vegetarian who occasionally eats fish), but either choice is kinder to the environment than the standard U.S. steak-and-hamburger one.

Finally, I agree with one of the previous comments above: in much of the world, meat is treated more as a seasoning than a dish unto itself. If more meat-eaters could change their approach toward meat in that way, the environment would benefit ... and so would their health. To learn more, I recommend checking out the Center for Science in the Public Interest's "Six Arguments for a Greener Diet."

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R & D is critical
Posted by: kungfoofighterx on Apr 18, 2008 6:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This first phase of food based fuel is like a pilot study. It effects a "few" people (speaking in terms of global percentages) negatively. However for it to work on the large scale "they" need to use the parts of the plant we dont eat. Like the stalks of corn. The race is on. Whoever makes this work first will be sitting with all the meat they want.
By the way food animals do a good job of eating things we dont. Then we eat them. It is efficient. Next time the author is in the USA he should drive through the west; WY, MT, etc. Cows! Also take a look around the equator. Cows! In mountains...Cows or sheep! Large parts of South America....Cows or sheep! Any place with lots of hills or mountains = cows and sheep. Norhtern areas with less growing days = cows and sheep. We used lots of grain to fatten them up. We dont need too. Lean animals==hard to chew. Still make tasty soup. The planet is covered in unharvestable grass lands. Cows/sheep and their products will almost always be worth more than gas.
Its the people who live in regions without agriculture that are fucked. Food/land to fuel = less to export. Water to make all of those plants. Now thats where the real trouble starts. The native plants are always the best at managing there water. It will be interesting when people start ripping up farms to plant prairies. Throw a few cows on it and harvest the rest for fuel and you dont even need to irrigate.

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» Dream on, Sunshine Posted by: leafsong1
do what our great-great-grandparents did
Posted by: e rice on Apr 18, 2008 6:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
raise your own pigs--they're omnivores, so you won't waste the dinner scraps. they can survive in small spaces, and they're self-replicating.

get a sheep--not only will it do the work of a lawn mower, it will provide good fertilizer and meat for at least a month.

raise chickens--you get eggs, manure for the garden, and they are so stupid and bad-tempered you won't have any qualms about twisting their necks.

keep a dovecote--pigeons provided food for many people in the past (the new yorkers should get behind that idea!).

if people in the cities can grow cooperative vegetable gardens, they can grow livestock. i wonder how many of the supposed sanitation laws against livestock in the city in the late 19th c. were just for the rich meat suppliers. after all, if you can supply yourself, you're 'stealing' money from a robber baron.

for the squeamish, the slaughtering and butchering could be done by a traveling professional.

any of this would also reduce the overcomsumption of meat--when you've put months of work into something, you don't waste it.

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Well
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 18, 2008 6:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem isn't eating meat. The problem is industrialized society and in this instance, the factory farming of animals. ANIMALS aren't bad for the planet. Raising them in polluting, overpopulating feedlots is.

Its not the meat. Its the technology.

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» You mean the cow... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» I agree with you, Joshua Posted by: Cathyc
No mention of hunting and fishing in here?
Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Apr 18, 2008 7:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author makes some good points in here but fails to mention the sustainability (and, in many cases, necessity) of harvesting local fish and game.

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» RE: OK I'm done Posted by: leafsong1
» Exactly! Posted by: bornxeyed
» Well put Posted by: leafsong1
» Uh, WRONG Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Uh, WRONG Posted by: bornxeyed
Yep...
Posted by: Woeful on Apr 18, 2008 7:47 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The cow's best look is in a patty.

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M.D.'s and veganism
Posted by: gcarreno on Apr 18, 2008 7:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another great source for veganism and how it's wonderful for your health, disease management/prevention, etc. is http://www.pcrm.org This is the site for Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine, a group of medical doctors aiming to share how veganism is a healthy lifestyle. I went vegan about four years ago, and I have never been healthier. My M.D. has told me that veganism was the best choice I could have made, especially given my family's history of diabetes, cancers, heart disease, and so on. I encourage all AlterNet readers to at least be open-minded to checking out this website (click on Health) for information about veg diets. Of course food, like many things, is a personal as well as cultural choice, but at least take a look at the research and maybe consider including more veg meals into your diet. You'll not only help the environment and animals, but I guarantee that you'll feel absolutely terrific too!

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» RE: M.D.'s and veganism Posted by: Cathyc
The Link Between Meat Eating and Caner
Posted by: Persephone8 on Apr 18, 2008 8:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=85770


www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17122667


It's real. It is documented. These articles are the tip of the iceberg.

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Where is the animal in all this?
Posted by: kathy9 on Apr 18, 2008 8:17 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that in fact we will all be vegan in the future. This provisional belief – provisional because no one can be sure of the future – is based on the feeling that veganism is ethically right, plus the historical evidence that the right wins out eventually.
Unfortunately, the present debate illustrates what happens when animal ethics are left out of the equation, and mostly human-centred arguments prevail. If people accepted that animals are morally equal to human beings, and that harming and killing animals is wrong, there would be no question of eating meat or dairy products, regardless of environmental or human-health considerations. People would not speak of ‘eating less meat’ any more than they would speak of ‘committing fewer murders’.
It’s useful in considering these questions to substitute human beings for animals, and ask what you would do then. Monbiot, who deserves credit for at least trying to live up to his concerns, claims that veganism damaged his health and that most vegans he knows seem unhealthy. One could (and many will) counter with examples of healthy vegans (including myself), medical opinion in favour of veganism, etc. One could ask whether Monbiot informed himself fully about vegan nutrition and the need for Vitamin B12 (which can be obtained in vegan form). I would assume he did. But that’s not the point. Suppose it were proved that eating human flesh made one much healthier and extended one’s lifespan much more than any other diet. Would anyone dream of taking it up? Would people who had tried doing without human flesh complain that their abstinence made them ill? Would columnists offer helpful suggestions for achieving 'sustainable cannibalism'?
A person who commits to veganism out of animal ethics, rather than environmental or human-centred reasons, will try to solve any health problems that arise, and in the last resort will simply accept those problems rather than inflict on animals the much greater suffering and much more premature death caused by meat and dairy production.
Kelethian writes: 'I'm sure vegans think they're the healthiest people in the world -- right until the moment their heart stops.' This is so funny. Actually, everyone’s heart stops eventually; it’s called ‘mortality’. Better that mine should stop a few years earlier than it otherwise would – if that is the case – than that an animal should be killed only a fraction of the way through his or her natural lifespan.
Monbiot does have a conscience about factory farming. But again, would we eat human beings provided they were humanely cared for and slaughtered? Come to rural Bulgaria where I live, where nearly every household keeps animals: all family farms and free-range meat; yes, more humane, and environmentally exemplary. Come in the autumn and see and hear the pigs being killed in the street. And go anywhere in the world and hear a cow whose child has been taken from her.
Then put your superior human brain – the excuse for all this oppression – to work devising rationalizations for it.
Monbiot suggests that we eat meat only on special occasions. By thus portraying it as something highly desirable, he encourages people in their addiction to it. In his earlier, more pro-vegan article, he refers to special occasions ‘like Christmas’. But whatever one’s religion or lack of it, Christmas is among other things a celebration of our highest ethical values – and he suggests that we should mark it by killing an animal!
Ethical vegans and vegetarians are often accused of self-righteousness. But that is only because our values are still in a minority. No one is accused of self-righteousness for endorsing long-accepted values like not killing human beings, not stealing, etc. When people start looking at the question of diet in terms of the animals involved (or preferably not involved), our ethics will also seem natural and obvious.

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» What is unethical about... Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: What is unethical about... Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: What is unethical about... Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: What is unethical about... Posted by: Squarehead
Sensible Outlook!
Posted by: Gravitas on Apr 18, 2008 8:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I at least applaud this author for his pragmatic approach. Most people will NOT become vegetarian and certainly not vegan any more than all teens will choose abstinence. It is a source of great amusement how those who advocate the former can't see how they are just as preachy and unrealistic as those who advocate the later, just a different cause.

What I don't like about this article is that it ignores so many political factors that contribute to the food shortage. It plays on the same old personal guilt that what we eat is snatching food away from some child in the developing nations. It ignores how those country's capacity to produce has been decimated by decades of exploitation from the richest nations - like the debt burden. Even though food production is declining, we still do have the ability to feed the world if the economic structure were to change!

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» RE: Sensible Outlook! Posted by: YogiBear
Let's compare Monbiot on biofuels and on meat:
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Apr 18, 2008 8:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here he writes an nice pro-meat lobby piece. Very well.

What does he say? I cannot commit to a diet I can't handle? Great. Write another distorting and dishonest article on the great evils biofuels, George, but be sure not to mention the real issues behind the price spike in foods - such as investor speculation, monopolistic globalization, etc.

Monbiot: I like meat and fossil fuels, so screw you!

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» Right you are... see below Posted by: thoughtcriminal
Have a nice debate, but I WILL eat meat.
Posted by: wiggles2 on Apr 18, 2008 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) I've determined I need some meat in my diet to be at optimum health. I've tried veganism. I can't tolerate any dairy.

2) I'm not willing to further experiment with my health by continuing to tinker around with the vegan diet "until it works". Nor am I willing to try and replace what we "think" is missing from vegan diets (B12, L-Carnosine). I'm just going to eat meat.

3) Vegans can recommend whatever they like, it's a free country. But the moment they try to prohibit me from eating meat, you will find me with a sniper rifle taking them out. That's a promise. I would honestly be more willing to fight for my right to eat whatever the hell I want than I would be willing to fight for "my country".

Now, that being said, I try to limit my meat consumption to 3 or 4 portions per week, or sometimes as a garnish, as I believe *excessive* consumption of meat, especially industrial meat is a major cause of most of western society's affliction. I don't even think it's really healthy to eat it daily. And I try to get grass-fed beef or wild(er) varieties as much as possible (elk, bison, etc.)

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» RE: wow, all this despair Posted by: leafsong1
» pfeifer666 Posted by: leafsong1
Is It Too Hard To Argue Your Point Without Sounding Defensive?
Posted by: ritadona69 on Apr 18, 2008 9:08 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm really not sure how disparaging the very conscious and thoughtful choice made by vegans to forgo all animal products for whatever reason furthers the the important discussion about the environment, hunger, or any topic that affects ALL beings on this planet. Throwing in little comments about a person's skin color or appearance just takes away all of your credibility Mr. Monbiot. All vegans aren't pale and sickly any more than all animal product eaters are overweight and chronically ill.

I suspect that most people who have "tried" veganism and found it lacking, however, either didn't get enough variety into their diets or just found societal pressure to conform too strong a force. I otherwise can't reconcile how any thinking person could understand what factory farming is and still eat animals.

And the idea of slaughtering a perfectly beautiful and happy grass-fed animal, too, just because you say you "need" the meat to function properly just seems a bit selfish, too. I mean, we live in one of the richest countries in the world where seasons pretty much don't matter to supermarket fare, and some people still can't get their nutrition from all that other food?

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» Cool, Then. Posted by: grumble-bum
If we're really concerned about hunger
Posted by: Frank J. on Apr 18, 2008 9:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there are better ways to deal with it than debating veganism. If that's people's choice that's fine. I raise cattle mostly on pasture and thought I would avoid condemnation in this article until I learned that not only am I taking food out of peoples mouths but my cows are killing the environment.
One can not win with some people. Oh, we also want to produce our own biodiesel from our own oil seeds and burn it in the equipment we need to farm. So condemn me to the seventh level of hell or which ever level is appropriate.

Now I've never won an Nobel prize and I'd be willing to bet the author hasn't either but Amartya Sen has in 1998 and in his 1981 publication "Poverty and Famines: An Essay on Entitlement and Deprivation" he demonstrated that famine occurs not only from a lack of food, but from inequalities built into mechanisms for distributing food.

So surprise, surprise the answers are not black and white. Changing eating habits has more to do with economics of the society than driving someones morality down others throats. Politics, greed and economics have an equal measure in the causes of famine. And I bet we can all agree that there are policies that need to be changed in that area. So let's find something we agree upon rather than continuing the debate at the 30,000 foot level. Get down in the weeds folks and start digging!
Because I'm going to keep farming and producing cattle. I like cattle and they fit into my operation. I also bet I will be able to sell their offspring to meat eaters for a long time to come.
They will continue to eat it as a part of their diet probably more often that the author or many here would like. But that's reality.

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» some excellent points Posted by: e rice
» The Politics of Greed Posted by: Cathyc
The future is bleak
Posted by: thelostsailor on Apr 18, 2008 9:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since our government rolls over for every American agriculture corporation and GMO producing corp, our nation will begin to head more and more to fast food with the continued demise of our economy. GMO agriculture is the greatest thing to happen to the fast food industry (and a great food to give the hungry world as a 'live experiment' for GMO foods consumed by humans in the guise of humanitarianism) and other factory farms, such as Budweiser beer production (GMO beer, mmmm...).
Unless our government puts up some serious roadblocks fast, the factory farm dream they have helped create will expand like US unemployment, obesity, and crony politics.

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Qualify and explain: it's all about trade, Monbiot.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Apr 18, 2008 9:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm starting to think that George Monbiot hasn't read Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine, but I think he needs to do so, as do about 95% of the global media that is currently reporting on the food price spike.

http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine

Let's discuss export agriculture in the Third World, George. You condemn the conversion of your food crops to fuel, but what about malnutrition and poor food quality in the Third World? Where is their organic food and roast pig?

Maybe you don't understand how agriculture works here in the USA - that's okay, a lot of people don't. Every year, some $30-50 billion in subsidies flow from the U.S. taxpayer to gigantic agribusiness corporations that operate devastating industrial operations, for example:

Day after day, poultry workers are cut by knives, burned by chemicals or hurt by repetitive work, according to dozens of injury logs compiled by plants across the South. Because many workers are illegal immigrants and can’t afford private care, their health rests largely with company medical workers. Those in-house attendants are supposed to help workers heal. Instead, some have prevented workers from receiving medical care that would cost the company money, an Observer investigation has found. And in some instances, the treatments they provide can do more harm than good.

That's North Carolina's Charlotte Observer - did you know we've still got Third World conditions right here in the U.S.A.? Actually, they're rampant - Fast Food Nation is a good introduction to the topic.

Now, let’s get back to trade. Why do oil companies ship crude oil, George, and not finished gasoline products? Because most of the profit is made at the refinery. If Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela and Nigeria sold us finished gasoline by the tankerload, Exxon and Chevron wouldn't be rolling it, would they? That's why the U.S. promotes raw material exploitation in the Third World, but not real infrastructure development - no solar panels, no railways.

Let’s take our small African country, with agricultural resources but not much else - Zimbabwe, say, minus their psychotic dictator. Imagine a domestic organic farming system that provided enough food for the population, as well as a surplus for export abroad.

However, these guys need industrial products - solar panels, good batteries, water pumps, simple farm equipment - they have little industry. Thus, they need to buy those products abroad, and they need currency to do so. Maybe they should sell their children into slavery to get that currency, huh? Or give up their raw materials to the WTO-IMF-World Bank-system at basement prices? Or set up slave-run export agriculture systems like they have in Brazil today, where they produce non-GMO soy for European food consumers?

Secondly, small farmers can't compete with massive U.S.-subsidized agribusiness corporations - but there will always be a high demand for liquid fuels. Thus, if a small African country grows a huge amount of corn or soybeans or hemp or whatever, and find that global prices are so low they make their crop worthless, they can convert their entire crop to ethanol or biodiesel, stick it on a tanker, and get some cash for it - which they can use to buy solar panels, etc.

And now we have G8 nation members calling for a ban on biofuels... but not a ban on fossil fuels, right? That would be incontheivable... fossil fuels are the only reason we aren't living in caves, gnawing on our neighbor's leg bones... we were saved by the Green Revolution! Endless B.S. - Piled High and Deep by many eager PhD's. . .

There seems to be a big blind hole in your vision, George... just trying to fill it in.

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Veggie Dont Matter
Posted by: Mexitli on Apr 18, 2008 10:01 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your veggies are GMO.

Your Franken Corn (if you can call it corn) - Maize Expands to 5-10 times its original size inside your bodies.

It's like an episode of Gilligan's Island.

Your meat is bad and your veggies are bad.

Good luck with that!

Mexitli

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» RE: Veggie Dont Matter Posted by: fringedweller
» RE: Veggie Dont Matter Posted by: Cathyc
Too bad author propagates misconceptions
Posted by: fringedweller on Apr 18, 2008 10:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that vegetarian/vegan lifestyles are unhealthy. It's a ridiculous thing to do, considering whole cultures have done well on a well rounded diet with no, or with very little meat. (point of common sense: I'm not talking about peoples being meatless due to some extreme adverse condition).

George should try veg again, because there's obviously something he wasn't doing right. There's a lot of good information now, that may not have been available to him then:

For those switching from a SAD (standard american diet) diet to an alternative veg diet, (plant-based but also whole, unrefined) and who have no established veg community for support, there's Physicians For Responsible Medicine

For books there's Becoming Vegan or Becoming Vegetarian, by Davis & Melina, two Registered Dieticians.

Some people say they quit veg because they didn't feel good; but you can be unhealthy on a SAD too, if you're not doing it right - how many meat eaters with health problems do you know? It's SO obvious: veg OR omni diets can be well, or poorly done.

Others quit veg because instead of realizing they're giving a gift to themselves and the world, they never got over the attitude of 'sacrifice' which inhibits the joy factor and makes adherence to the diet a lot like trying to hold a beach ball under water indefinitely - it can't be done.

Veggies are marginalized, and depending upon where they live, even vilified by the mainstream - for, what kind of consumer ARE you if your're only eating whole, unrefined, unprocessed food, that's not prepared by a restaurant chain? Think about it: Do you see commercials for grains of plain ol' whole wheat that wasn't reconstituted into some other product? How about plain brown rice? Oats? Not engough money in it. And because vegetarians eat mostly vegetables, they're responsible for a lot of the growth in organics...what, no GMO's for you? No veggies grown from Terminator Seed? Kind of makes one a double-devil, don't it! Some people, can't face, over the long-haul, being made fun of, or not fitting in, and give up.

To combat those problems, net-search for a vegetarian support group nearest you, or an online group such as VegPeople

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key wrod: responsible
Posted by: e rice on Apr 18, 2008 10:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
do you really have faith in the 'responsibility' of authority?

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up to half of all ocean species have disappeared from fishing grounds
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Apr 18, 2008 12:51 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

Published on Friday, July 29, 2005 by The Independent
Up to Half of Ocean Species Lost to Overfishing
by Steve Connor


Half of all sea fish species have disappeared from the major fishing grounds of the world, according to a study that shows how ocean life has declined rapidly in the past 50 years.

The dramatic fall in the diversity of fish is blamed on overfishing rather than pollution or climate change, the scientists behind the study said yesterday.

The study, which examined fishing logbooks dating back to the 1950s, also found that the size of ocean "hot spots", which were traditionally rich in a diverse array of fish species, had shrunk significantly over the same period.

A research team led by Boris Worm and Ransom Myers of Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, calculated that species diversity has declined by between 10 and 50 per cent in all oceans, with the most important predators such as sharks, tuna, swordfish and marlin suffering most.

Dr Worm said there was now a clear link between overfishing and the shrinking of the ocean regions where most fish tended to congregate in what the scientists call species-diversity hot spots.

"Everywhere you go, in every ocean basin, our hot spots today are only relics of what was once there. It really hurts to see this," Dr Worm said.

Dr Myers said that where fishermen might have caught 10 species of fish on average in any one area of the sea five decades ago, today they could only catch five. "It's not yet extinction. It's local fishing-out of species. Where you once had a range of a species in dense numbers, now you might catch one or two of a certain species," Dr Myers said.

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RE: man, all this despair
Posted by: leafsong1 on Apr 19, 2008 10:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"It's not time to give up yet, folks."
It is time to give up the fantasies of your youth, pfeifer. It's time to give up on trying to deceive Alternetters with long ago debunked corporate propaganda. It's time to abandon irrational arguments that go nowhere such as, "we can increase food production." You are taking false premises and using them in a fantasy world context that ignores manifest historical and physical realities, not to mention well established science. It's time to stop pretending that sport fishermen control fisheries management. It's time to abandon Rovian smears such as justifying your adherence to political orthodoxy by accusing your opponents of doing so, and defending your own abysmal and willful ignorance by demanding that far better informed people than you "do their homework." You didn't come here to learn. In fact, it seems possible that you came here to earn.

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» RE: PICK ONE Posted by: leafsong1
Gray Skin?
Posted by: Brindal on Apr 18, 2008 10:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gray-skinned vegetarians? First I've heard of this! I have been a vegetarian for over 30 years, and my skin is NOT gray. Please do some research before you write crap like this. It is very possible to be healthy without eating dead animals.

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» RE: Gray Skin? Posted by: leoforward
» RE: Gray Skin? Posted by: carcinoid112
so much for proofreading.
Posted by: e rice on Apr 18, 2008 11:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
word.

oops.

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» RE: so much for proofreading. Posted by: Squarehead
Some land is no good for crops
Posted by: PaulK on Apr 18, 2008 11:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A Maine farmer told me this. Some land is far too rocky for crops. The only food you can get from it is sheep.

As mentioned above, if you have a natural habitat you have too many deer. For that matter, the main food that you can get from the ocean is fish or mollusks, not kelp.

I recognize the ambivalence that people have between raising farm animals and taking good care of them almost as pets, and then having someone else slaughter them for food, or sometimes personally dropping the nice lobster into the boiling pot.

Is it better to be strictly doctrinaire about vegetarianism or to eat the food that's available from a certain plot of land? Some people will stick to a hard and fast principle to illustrate their commitment. For example, vegans may not like factory farms so they say no to all meat.

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» Very well said. Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» wool, anyone? Posted by: e rice
» RE: Some land is no good for crops Posted by: fringedweller
Those who justify animal TORTURE by supporting factory farming
Posted by: helenwheels on Apr 18, 2008 12:06 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it really sad to see all the justification for eating meat up here. I am a vegetarian and have the exact same amount of energy I did when I ate meat. If people saw how the animals they eat suffer, and the factory farming cruelty they are SUPPORTING, maybe they'd wake the hell up. As it is, all this whining that "being a vegetarian might make MY life shorter" is so disgusting. Especially in light of the fact IT IS NOT TRUE and MAYBE THAT ANIMAL'S LIFE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOURS. Why do we humans assume our paltry lives are more important than, say, a rat's? Or a cow's? WHY? So much g-d ignorance and lack of enlightenment up here it really makes me sad.

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heribove v omnivore v carnivore
Posted by: drmflorida on Apr 18, 2008 12:19 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All of this heribove v omnivore v carnivore argument seems a little silly to me. I'm not sure that we were genetically destined to live sedentary lives, drive cars, or use computers. Nevertheless, I try to exercise occasionally, drive carefully, and use proper posture to avoid repetitive stress injuries. Its taking precautions to adjust to our current living conditions.

As we speak, people in third world countries are rioting because they can't afford food. This will spread. We need to make adjustments regardless of the diet we are genetically predisposed for. We can start by outlawing the production of ethanol from viable food. If it is necessary to take further action to encourage less meat in our diet, we should do that. Starvation is an ugly thing that I hope none of us ever truly has to contend with.

Sometimes I wonder how progressive the readers of this web site really are. Here's a clue, if you don't give a shit if your hamburger is contributing to food riots, you are not a progressive. Stop deluding yourself.

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» RE: heribove v omnivore v carnivore Posted by: fringedweller
whatever
Posted by: EinMD on Apr 18, 2008 12:23 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry people, I'm omnivorous. I have flat teeth for grinding up vegetables and I have pointy teeth for tearing off chunks of flesh.

All these claims of eating meat being unnatural are BS. Does a lion stop to think about how a Gazelle will feel before it rips it's throat out and eats it alive? No.

I will admit that our current methods for handling food animals are in serious need of overhaul. From the perspective of efficiency, waste, distribution, pollution, disease prevent and yes, cruelty, we have a lot of work to do. We have a lot of work to do on a lot of issues.

I also agree that the average American probably eats too much meat and could stand to have more vegetables in their diet on a daily basis. Hell, I like most vegetables and fruits.

But sorry veggie people, I'm not giving up my steaks and burgers and I make no apologies for it. If that means that a cow that's been bred for generations a stupid, docile animal so I can get some tasty protein, so be it. If I wasn't able to get it from the local supermarket I'd be out hunting it with a shotgun which is generally frowned upon in the cities we live in.

Not everybody can be up there on your high horse with you. Yeah I wish the process were more humane, but lets face fact, we do lots worse things to our fellow humans on a regular basis we just don't eat them.

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» RE: whatever Posted by: e rice
» RE: whatever Posted by: levinson.eric
» RE: whatever Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: whatever Posted by: leoforward
» RE: whatever Posted by: helenwheels
veganism makes you sick?
Posted by: levinson.eric on Apr 18, 2008 12:37 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i could have sworn it was a meat-based diet that was causing cancer and obesity. if you get sick from a vegan diet it's because your "pickiness" from your previous meat-based diet carried into your new, healthier vegan diet. most americans don't know shit about what it takes to be healthy, and eating meat and dairy lets them fake it (though they're obviously not healthy in the long run...).

eating meat and dairy is not sustainable, wasting crops for ethanol and biodiesel is starving millions of people.

so, go ahead, eat meat and cheese because you "can't be healthy eating vegan." i will be busily tending my garden and riding my bike and won't even notice the oncoming food and energy crisis :)

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blipverts
Posted by: wittler youth on Apr 18, 2008 12:56 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what a great idea..fat people explode wacthing t.v...the best fed go frist...g.g. allen had it half right..

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George Monbiot's final point needs re- reading:
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Apr 18, 2008 1:03 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rereading this article, I see that there is something surreal about it. While half the world wonders whether it will eat at all, I am pondering which of our endless choices we should take. Here the price of food barely registers. Our shops are better stocked than ever before. We perceive the global food crisis dimly, if at all. It is hard to understand how two such different food economies could occupy the same planet, until you realize that they feed off each other.

That, in a word, is why I can't stand talking to holier-than-thou vegans without pointing out their blatant moral hypocrisy - their clothes are made in sweatshops, their cars are fueled with fossil fuel taken from the ground at the point of a gun in Iraq, and they sit there with their smug little halos claiming moral superiority because of their food choices?

And then they claim that eating meat is the main cause of cancer and obesity - happily ignoring that tasty "vegan" treat, high-fructose corn syrup - you can pound Coke and Pepsi and still be a special and healthy vegan? What about the industrial agriculture system that produces all your soy-based food products? You go to a store, buy a product made with soy from Brazil and palm oil from Indonesia, produced under conditions only slightly different from 18th century slave plantations, and that makes you morally superior? What B.S.

So, whatever, indeed. However, as hundreds of millions of Indians have shown, you can get by without eating meat and live a very healthy life - and you don't need to be arrogant and smug about it, either.

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» what road is paved with good intentions? Posted by: thoughtcriminal
dead sea
Posted by: wittler youth on Apr 18, 2008 1:18 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
man what planit bush did you git off from..you must think your one inch square pacth of brain is liveing in uni corn land..hate to tell you the sea is almost toast now..what ever you eat out of it world wide is sub leathal...jokes on you..go put some round up on your weeds..it will be in the next fish you eat..you been eating a chem. farm all your life..now its taking a toll on your reality.

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Always be evil, always be man's inhumanity to man
Posted by: euthyfro on Apr 18, 2008 1:24 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Meat is still murder
Dairy is still rape

Once you have recognized one form of oppression you can't help but recognize the rest. I'm sure everyone can think of things they have regularly done which they know deep down are wrong and no one i think is capable of living in complete moral purity, but it's the striving for it and the struggle. You have to have a real faith in your fellows that they can be your equal on that moral plane.

So it's never a fool's errand, every person that renounces violence makes the world a better place.
And we keep on trying...

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What you all don't seem to realize..
Posted by: CassielFell on Apr 18, 2008 1:28 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The majority of animals raised for meat, and dairy, in the US are herbivores, barring the hog which is omnivorous.

Cattle (beef and dairy), sheep, goats, rabbits, even fowl.. etc, ALL require grains and hay, not just pasture(which is only seasonal), to produce what you're accustomed to.
With the rising usage of arable land to grow biofuel crops.. there is less land used for making hay, and less grains available for the livestock.
Pasture is only a seasonal thing.. and any ungulate or ruminant without a study supply of forage ends up being a very sick, and possibly dead, animal.
And if you bring up the feedlots.. let me explain this to you.. The cattle in feedlots have been brought in off the pasture to be temporarily fattened on grain to produce the texture of beef that the average American consumer likes. Aside from that few month stay in that lot, they were on pasture or being fed hay.
Add to that the rising price of fuel, and mind you that a lot of farm equipment uses diesel, which will affect the production costs of any agricultural product.

The price of meat and dairy is going to skyrocket in the next few years.. because there's not going to be enough fodder for the livestock with the droughts, turning over of land for biofuel crops, and the urbanization of arable land.
Farmers are already liquidating their breeding herds because they're anticipating that, first of all.. the market is going to be glutted this fall prior to winter(due to lack of hay to feed livestock) and that they will not be able to feed as large a herd through the winter.

Dairy farms will be reducing their herds because they can't afford to feed them all due to the high prices of hay, silage, and grains.
Beef farmers will have smaller herds and be breeding fewer because of a lack of feed.
The same will go for the goat and sheep farmers as well.
Grains used in raising fowl have been rising in price, meaning that it will cost more to raise them, which in turn will drive up the price of eggs and meat.

Are you seeing the point?

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Who's Healthy?
Posted by: westomoon on Apr 18, 2008 1:36 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's considerable evidence that different blood types need different diets. [See Eat Right 4 Your Type et seq, by Peter D'Adamo] So some people thrive -- and do not turn pearly grey -- on the strictest of vegan diets, some do best with some dairy, and some need some meat. It's pretty clear that nobody needs the amount of meat that's standard in the US diet.

But that famous invisible magician, The Market, will be settling this for us soon. With grain prices rising like skyrockets, we won't be having cheap meat for much longer. No doubt the superrich will create a separate infrastructure for their private supplies of meat -- they've done that for all the other necessities of life. But for the rest of us, economics will be a big help in reducing animal flesh to its proper role of everyday condiment and occasional splurge.

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» RE: Who's Healthy? Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
stop famine = Zero Human Population Growth
Posted by: stilldreaming on Apr 18, 2008 1:43 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It doesn 't matter if food aid reaches hungry children or not, they'll survive today only to have 7-15 kids each, like they do in the poorest of Africa today.

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can the garden crap
Posted by: wittler youth on Apr 18, 2008 1:44 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
yea live out of your garden..no one ever says you have to know how to stock pile that harvest..i know very few people that even know what a ball jar is.or even know how to it..what happens to all these ****ing people sept-thu-july???they eating tree bark..dumpster diveing??yea you go you eat native people..but i allways see you shooting down the same isles as me at the grocery store...buying the same ag-bizz poison produce i do only you buy the stuff that has ORGANIC! STICKER ON IT for the same stuff i bought..only you pay twice as much as me..lol..

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» RE: can the garden crap Posted by: fringedweller
ideas for Alternet articles:
Posted by: wwittman on Apr 18, 2008 1:55 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ideas for future Alternet articles:

We Aren't All Going To Reduce Greenhouse Gases
We Aren't All Going To Give Up Fossil Fuels
We Aren't All Going To Give Up Slaves
We Aren't All Going To Pay Our Taxes


the point is looking at what we SHOULD do.

This article is mostly a rationslisation for what we shouldn't.

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The New Leftist Religion
Posted by: eiu101 on Apr 18, 2008 2:22 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The environment is something we should all be concerned with. Agreed? Agreed.

But this whole Ultra-Orthodox Religion of the Earth that tries to preach to us that the world is going to end unless we improve our ways (sound familiar? I thought the Inquisition was over and decidedly not progressive) is making me sick.

You know it when you see it - the lonely circle of enviro-bloggers who rarely speak to anybody outside their "circles" unless it's to rail on the average Jane or Joe who may or may not be eating meat or driving an SUV. They're mostly the loners from school - no real friends, except those that march lock-in-step with their bizarre idealogies. Noses stuffed into "vegan" cookbooks and "animal rights" blogs, they typically lack any semblence of normal social skills, and prefer to converse only about issues regarding the environment - and about how everybody else (never themselves, you see) is ruining it and setting us up the bomb.

Because, you know, having children of your own leads directly to the starvation of children in Africa. Or maybe it just means that cattle production is going to continue? I get confused sometimes. I think I just read someone compare milking cows to raping women. I would love to see somebody actually say that in words to another human being. I really don't think they could even do it unless they're typing anonymously on websites like this one.

Look, I like to pretend to be morally superior than everybody else on planet earth sometimes too. But most of the time I just wake up the next morning with a hangover and the runs.

Wasn't a key tenet of progressivism about removing people from their Moral Holy High Grounds and bringing them down to the level of the rest of us? I guess when you lead a perfect, environmentally-friendly life it's fine to condemn everything that everybody else does which may or may not impact the environment. Note the sarcasm.

I guess they ignore that their "all natural" clothes and hybrid cars are still made in factories. That their favorite "vegan" restaurants are built by meat-eating, truck driving blue collar American laborers who don't give a damn about the fools who will eventually spend the majority of their social lives inside the same concrete walls. Apparently, when a "vegan"/environmental Orthodox Believer takes a ride on a plane, the jetfuel exhaust transforms into a perfectly harmless magic fairy dust that couldn't possibly choke any birds that might breath it in.

Most of the time, I'm content to acknowledge that lunatics like some of the "environmentalist" commentators on this list will never, never, never, ever influence public policy in anyway, shape or form. Face it - nobody takes you seriously outside of few self-radical wannabe forest-savers at a handful of internet message boards, Alternet included. Most of America thinks you're freaks, and most of the time they're absolutely right.

How environmentally friendly can all those tie-dye t-shirts, open-toe sandals and rugged hoodies even be?

Do us a favor. Ditch the Orthodoxy that tells you you're going to Hell for taking plastic instead of paper. Most of us have already recognized the enlightened value that you don't need to answer to any fictional God - be he Jesus or Al Gore - in order to live a happy life. So come join the rest of us in trying to come up with some real solutions to some real problems. I think our President is trying to invade another country right now, and word is that military mobilizations rarely work out well with our lovely planet earth.

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» One of the priests reacts!! Posted by: eiu101
» RE: One of the priests reacts!! Posted by: Squarehead
» All I can say is... Posted by: mjabele
» Wondering Posted by: Tricia
The Evil Holstein
Posted by: zooeyhall on Apr 18, 2008 6:56 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a lifetime dairy farmer in Nebraska (a small producer, just 30 cows) I never thought I'd see the day where a picture of a Holstein cow is a symbol of evil.

These vegitarian/anti-meat fanatics have a moral certitude eerily reminiscent of what you see in the religious right-wing.

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Nutrition Science
Posted by: mcstewey on Apr 18, 2008 7:12 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm reading a lot of posts claiming that one type of diet can work for everyone. I'm sorry, but that is simply wrong. We're only just now beginning to understand the role that biology, genetics, and the environment play in what type of diet is good for different people. For some, a strictly vegetarian diet works great, for some a vegan diet is best and for others, meat and cheese are necessary for optimum health.
I recommend everyone go see a licensed nutritionist for more information.

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» WRONG!!! Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
» RE: WRONG!!! Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: WRONG!!! Posted by: mcstewey
» RIGHT! Posted by: dudelette
» RE: RIGHT! Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
Vegetarian/Vegan Diets
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Apr 18, 2008 7:57 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People who've been vegetarians or vegans and then complain that they could not stay healthy on that diet simply didn't know how to eat. I have a vegan friend who dislikes many vegetables and thinks nothing of eating fake meats and tofu, which are probably more unhealthy than meat.

The only reason humans need meat is for vitamin B-12. Eating a diet of some wild meat like fish once per week or so, with a base of whole grains, beans, nuts, and legumes will provide all the protein a person needs. Add fresh fruits and veggies daily and you'll be much healthier than people who eat crap like beef, chicken, or pork on a regular basis. Why do you think that vegans live the longest and vegetarians the second longest?

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» RE: Vegetarian/Vegan Diets Posted by: richholland
I notice fewer arguments in favor of biofuel since food riots began.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Apr 18, 2008 9:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is a form of progress. Many posters are now aware that we
cannot replace fossil fuels with biofuel. Why did it take food
riots to convince them? They should have listened when it was
said that 2 or 3 more Earths would be needed to replace fossil fuel
with biofuel.
Will something analogous happen with wind and solar power?
Hopefully without too many deaths? And hopefully before it is
too late to stop global warming because of too many thresholds
having been crossed. The food riots are a great lesson. Food
riots WILL happen in the USA if global warming is allowed to
continue. Wind and solar power are not adequate to put an end to
burning fossil fuel. I hope wind and solar power advocates come
to their senses soon enough. EFFECTIVE action has to be taken
immediately to stop the burning of coal first, because coal is the
biggest single source of CO2. So thank you again George
Monbiot.

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where did you get your info on b12???
Posted by: levinson.eric on Apr 18, 2008 9:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you can go almost a decade without ingesting b12 and the small amount of the BACTERIA B12 already present in your intestines is recycled.

you can also get b12 from the traces of ORGANIC COMPOSTED FERTILIZER left on fruits and vegetables.

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Even if we have the food, where are we going to get the water?
Posted by: dudelette on Apr 19, 2008 11:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're running out of water sources. Much of our current fresh water supply has been polluted, often due to overpopulation and the resulting problems.

We've destroyed necessary ecological systems with dams; the rain supply is altering with global warming; desalinization plants are expensive, cannot keep up with the demand, and we don't know the long-term effects of a massive demand on the oceans and the local coasts from the number of plants needed to keep up with the population.

We need more than ZPG. We need a minus growth. I'm not advocating killing people. But we have to start reducing population by cutting the number of people born in the next generations. If we don't, Nature is going to do it for us through starvation and disease.

And when people talk about how we're destroying the Earth, we aren't really. We're destroying the ability for humans to survive on it. The Earth will continue, just without us.

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Comments on balanced proteiin
Posted by: GPFrank on Apr 19, 2008 7:46 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether or not one remains healthy on mostly vegetables depends on essential amino acids in the diet. That problem should be taken care of by a minimum amount of animal protein that includes fish and fowl, probably 40 grams (3 ounces) a week.Some beans have some essential amino acids but it would be desirable for nutritionists to prepare a catalog. For protein in general the diet
should consists of something like 50% beans, partially cooked and made into salads. Some people are allergic to foods. I am allergic to eggs unless free from unbound sulfides, i.e. they have to be cooked as soon as they come from the hen.

Of course, diseases such as gout result from
overeating meat. The burden of of ammonia on the kidneys resulting from 400 grams of meat a day must account for considerable shortening of life. I do not believe we are constituted to
get our energy from burning amino acids.

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What is unethical about killing animals
Posted by: Tricia on Apr 20, 2008 12:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is unethical about killing animals is that you are taking the life of a creature that prefers to live, just as you do. This is the case even if you do the killing with your own hands. Everyone understands that it is immoral to kill humans, but many can't extend this concept to to other species. Other species matter as much as we do.

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Only a coward would eat a plant
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Apr 20, 2008 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You spineless vegans! Why pick on a poor defenseless plant. Plants have no teeth or claws to protect themselves from you and your empty stomach. No legs to run from you heartless humans wanting to chew then digest these quiet beautiful gifts of nature. They do not even have arms to fight off human predators. If you have to eat then at least go after something that has a fighting chance. A fish can swim. Deer can run. Most animals have defenses. What chance does corn have? Quit being cowards and eat like a man.
Pass the A1 sauce.

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Baloney
Posted by: patden on Apr 20, 2008 8:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you don't want to be vegetarian because you like eating meat too much, just be honest and say so and forget bringing up the bogus science or misrepresentations about so-called vegan "paleness".

EVERYBODY can become vegan with ZERO ill-effects as long as they use common sense in eating correctly. Read "The China Study" for levelheaded proof.

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» RE: Baloney Posted by: Dan Peper
A couple of points
Posted by: foodfirst on Apr 20, 2008 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my view, the problem is not with too much grain going into animals or automobile tanks; the problem is too much poverty. There is more than enough food to feed everybody in the world; there are all too many people who plain do not have any money to pay for it. People who have no land to grow their own food, no money for seeds and implements, insufficient rainfall to grow crops, no way to make money to buy food.

Let's face it: producers of any commodity are in business to make money, not good karma. The growers of corn and soybeans who sell to feedlots are doing it for the sake of profit, not because they have deep spiritual convictions that eating meat is good for you. These same producers made an overnight switch to biofuel and bioplastics when those became more profitable. Should the world poor become able to pay for their products, the suppliers would ship to them in an instant. With world grain supplies controlled by a small handful of agribusiness giants, the squeeze is on.

Grain-growing is in itself a cause of terrible environmental damage; ancient civilisations failed when their grain crops destroyed their environments (grain eaten by people, not animals! See Richard Manning's book "Against The Grain" for more details), historically the USA saw the development of the Dust Bowl; currently one has only to look at Madagascar and Amazonia to see the evidence. In Madagascar, the forests have been felled for rice paddies - and the grain is destined for people, not feedlots. Even if overnight the Western and Westernising worlds got religion and fed no single grain of human-edible food to meat animals, and every grain went to feed a human, the environmental impact would be just as awful. The same amounts of energy, polluting fertilisers, fungicides, herbicides, pesticides, water, would be used. The Dead Zones in the oceans would continue to grow. And people would still die of starvation, live in hunger, or live in a state where they get enough calories to become obese but are consistently undernourished, sickly, and despairing.

My own diet is heavily based on leafy greens and other veggies, supplemented with small amounts of fruit and moderate amounts of animal products. I seek out and cheerfully pay the higher price for grassfed meats, dairy products, and eggs. I've crunched the numbers and worked out that range-raised beef uses 60 gallons of water and 0.148 gallons of crude oil per pound of boneless beef. Sugar, on the other hand, uses 806 gallons of water per pound of processed sugar. I can eat range-fed beef for a year (1lb/month) at an environmental cost of less than one pound of sugar. In my own diet, the heavy users of resources are the greens, which need lots of water and nitrogen, and the fruits. Being both hypoglycaemic and gluten-sensitive, I eat little grain.

In my opinion, the best way to address the problem of world starvation is to empower the poor either to grow food or to earn money to buy food. Support organisations like the Heifer Project, Women For Women, Oxfam, Habitat for Humanity - which partnered with Mel Bartholomew to make Square Foot gardens along with each house they build. Put money into Grameen Bank for microloans. The poor don't want or need handouts from the wealthy; what they need is a hand up so they can attain self-sufficiency and even a modest properity.

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Pets eat meat
Posted by: Vinote on Apr 20, 2008 11:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a New Zealander I am appalled to roughly calculate that the total grass fed meat our country produces, is insufficient to feed the estimated number of pets owned by US citizens.

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» RE: My American dogs Posted by: Vinote
What's missing from biofuels arguement?
Posted by: uuo118 on Apr 20, 2008 4:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When corn is processed into ethanol, there is a high quality food product created, Dry Distillers Grains, DDGS. DDGS is 12% oil, 25-30% protein and high in vitamins, minerals, fiber and complex carbohydrates.

Sorry meat eaters, you can't blame ethanol for high food prices.

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Dan P
Posted by: Dan Peper on Apr 20, 2008 4:45 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree we should eat less meat but more importantly we should know how it was raised. As a former rotational grazier of beef cows I believe the only really sustainable farming methods include an animal component. Plants do not live in a animal free vacuum. In order to have thriving soil life, pest control and production of edibles for humans we need the balance. I use animal power to suppliment my own labor. Should I just let my horse or ox rot when it useful work life is over. I read alot of these articles and mostly they are written by people that never did much more food production than maybe a little garden. Using well managed rotational grazing I can build top soil and produce quality food for humans. Lets see you do that growing grain or veggies. Not that they aren't yummy but the animals can be part of a sustainable farming system. As for the so called global warming gasses of animal production, once again know how they were raised. I will refer you to holisticmanagement.com.on this subject.

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Vegetarian: Indian word for LOUSY HUNTER
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Apr 21, 2008 5:54 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HA HA

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Interesting views....here's mine
Posted by: b_nelson on Apr 22, 2008 9:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been a vegetarian since I was born, and tons of people I know (aquaintances/friends) have too. Not vegan, as I eat milk products and honey. But never in my life have I tasted meat or fish or eggs. When I was growing up, my relatives would always worry about whether me or my five brothers would be getting enough protein, vitamins, etc.-- basically whether we would grow properly. Now, their views on vegetarianism have changed and they have accepted it. My brothers grew up strong, tall, burly but not overweight, and very active. Surfing, skateboarding, soccer, football, basketball. No one could ever believe that they had never eaten meat in their lives.
Same has been for me, the only girl.

The main deal here is that--I never tried meat, so I don't crave it, desire it, need it. That people desire the taste of meat is the reason why we will probably continue to have the grains>cattle>meat>some people don't get fed> problem. Some people above show this. People like the taste of meat and so they will eat it.

I think part of it is also that people just don't know as much as they could about vegetables, and how easy they are to cook. So they rely on things like meat and junk food. Even I am just starting to learn that I can make a delicious, simple, bright and beautiful veggie dish in two minutes. Hit that up with some rice or noodles and your body says, "ahhhh...."

It doesn't much matter what the so-called "early man" ate. Its being proven here and now that if people ate less or no meat:

The hunger problem would be improved or even hypothetically solved, individual health would improve and there would be less cancer and other illnesses like heart disease (the number one killer in the US) because arteries wouldn't be clogged up with bad fat, the pollution of air, water and land coming from the meat-producing system would be lessened, the rainforests would not be destroyed at such an alarming rate (as they are now partly due to the demand on meat and therefore grazing land for cattle).

Grow corn instead of cows. If some of the facts up there ^ are really just so, then it appears that grains will be in even higher demand for producing ethanol to help with the oil problem.

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Vegans are denying their own nature
Posted by: Purple Girl on Apr 23, 2008 3:29 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I could care less if someone decides to never eat meat again. I do care if they try to make that decision for me or any other Human. We are Innately omnivores. It is our very nature to consume some meat. First consider the external evidence- eyes of a predator, canines, Bi pedal. then add our digestive systems- we have no Cecum, no numerous 'stomachs' whichare required to transform vegatation into protein (microbes which break down veg matter die off). Being a vegan makes as much sense, and consideration as feeding a lion Salads- you are not meetin gthat animals dietary needs- killing them.Granted many people consume far more meat than necessary, but elimiating it from Our diet goes against Nature.Tofu & peanuts do not provide the high nutrient for all the processes and muscle building properties of Proteins. Whether you are an 'evolutionist' or a Religious person you are denying, working against and judging both Nature or Gods design.
WE are the Stewards of this planet and all other creatures- We must meet our needs to be able to meet theirs- they are gifts, for our use and our Care.We are th eonly species capable of caring for All the rest. One human can Change and improve the world - if we don't take proper care of ourselves how can we possibly Properly meet the needs of all the rest.Care givers must take cae of themselves for the sake of all that depend on them.

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Killing a cause
Posted by: YogiBear on Apr 23, 2008 9:23 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I love best about the Alternet is how people destroy their own momentum with arrogant and elitist positions that everyone who doesn't live up to their standards is:

1. solely responsible for the destruction of the earth
2. lying or an idiot if they disagree

Imagine if we used these fundamentalist PoV's with any other argument. Example, someone says to me that Tylenol is the only effective headache cure. I tell them I'm allergic to Tylenol (true story). And they say: "You're lying -- no one is allergic to Tylenol."

People who read that exchange are going to say, "of course, every drug causes allergic reactions in some people" and disavow my accuser's point. Just like the vegan fundamentalists here. Normal folks will surf on in, see the exchange of ideas and see some folks claim that only idiots or liars can't be healthy on a vegan diet.

And you know what a regular American will conclude? That vegans are unreasonable people because they won't even allow for the possibility that someone might not be healthy on that diet.

You want to encourage Americans to disavow eating healthier? You're going about it the right way.

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