COMMENTS: 59
Enviro Battle Gone Wrong: Solar Energy vs. Redwoods?
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Mr. Vargas said he planned to install solar panels on the trellis behind his house -- meaning he needed access to sunlight. But the row of eight 10- to 25-foot redwoods along that edge of the couple's backyard would have to go -- or be shortened, or perhaps replaced with smaller trees.
They asked Vargas to come discuss the matter in their backyard.
So, in a suburban odyssey symbolic of the chasm between people with different ideas of how to use nature, he got in his car and drove nearly a mile to his neighbors' front door. The two families have adjacent backyards, but in suburbia's labyrinth, there is no easy walk between them. So their front doors stand in two different cities -- Sunnyvale and Santa Clara.
Perhaps that disconnect foreshadowed what would transpire. Accounts of the backyard discussion differ -- whether or not Vargas offered to pay for tree removal, or who first threatened legal action -- but one thing is certain: The parties haven't spoken since.
The ensuing paper chase through city ordinances, planning commissions, and permit hearings has consumed seven years and tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, and -- through California's obscure 1978 Solar Shade Control Act, which criminalizes the shading of solar panels by trees -- resulted in the Santa Clara County District Attorney prosecuting Mr. Treanor and Ms. Bissett.
A judge convicted the tree owners on Dec. 10 and ordered two of the eight trees cut down.
The redwoods were planted between 1997 and 1999. The solar panels were installed in 2001 by Vargas, who moved here in 1993.
Photos from 2001 show that two of the trees didn't shade the panels for the first year after installation, but have since grown to shade more than 10 percent of the collectors between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m.
So, says Treanor who has hired an arborist to do the job, "at 9 a.m. on March 26, Mr. Perez will be here to whack our trees."
The case has gained national traction. CNN visited both households, and Vargas just turned down Jon Stewart of the Daily Show.
The fascination is predictable. It sounds like an epic struggle of values: trees versus solar; Vargas, who drives an electric car versus. Treanor and Bissett, who own a Prius. Chat rooms bristle with invective defending the trees' right to exist, and naysayers ridicule the case as a parable of green hypocrisy.
"People are very, very emotional about their trees," explains Randall Stamen, a Riverside, Calif., lawyer who specializes in tree lawsuits. "If you've planted a tree and watched it grow, you've invested an awful lot in it."
But despite the emotions the case has sparked, it fits poorly with the moral story line into which it has been shoehorned.
The now-famous electric car sits outside the Vargases's garage, sipping sunlight from the house's 128 solar panels.
The Vargas home is a scene of familial pandemonium. Three Vargas children and two playmates -- ages 3 to 7 -- twitter about the living room where police officer Tom Leipelt is telling Vargas's wife, Melissa, not to worry about a voice mail the family just received. As Mrs. Vargas tells it, a "crazy woman from Quebec" said, "I hope that you suffer and your family suffers."
Mr. Vargas says he has grown used to the recognition that comes with TV appearances -- from supporters who say "hello" in the Safeway parking lot to silent drive-by gawkers.
He ambles into the narrow strip of yard protected from the slanting afternoon sun by the now-famous phalanx of redwoods. On the trellis several feet above his head sit 48 solar panels. These, along with 80 more on the roof, supply 100 percent of the family's electricity.
He seems content with his $70,000 investment, yet vague on any altruism behind it.
"That's a hard question," he admits. "But to be a producer of electricity, to have my own supply of energy from the sun, I think that's amazing in of itself." Beyond that, Vargas's popular image as a green crusader begins to fall flat.
"I've been labeled an environmentalist because of the solar power and the electric car," he says.
But the truth lies more in shades of gray than chlorophyll green. Sure, he drives an electric car -- but he also has two SUVs and a diesel pickup. "I don't have a problem driving my gas-powered vehicles."
Vargas is a regular guy -- enamored by cool technologies that do worthwhile things. The juxtaposition of solar panels and SUVs reflects a broader public appetite not for energy-saving habits, but for technical fixes: ethanol, solar, fuel cells, and hybrid autos that sometimes consume as much gas as many nonhybrids. You might call it the low-fat cheesecake approach to carbon dieting.
Bissett's family moved into the house on Benton Street in 1969, when she was 10; a walnut and cherry orchard stood where the Vargas home eventually would be built in 1992.
Bissett and Treanor moved back into her childhood home in 1995. They relandscaped the backyard: removing a nectarine tree and silk oak, and planting drought-resistant flowers and grass. They built a trellis and garden planters with recycled plastic materials. The first shoulder-height redwood arrived as a gift from a friend in 1997; it's now 40 feet tall.
"I'm planning to live here another 40 years," says Bissett, and those redwoods were "for me to grow old with." She wouldn't have guessed that they'd land her in court last September -- alongside drunken drivers, purse snatchers, wife beaters, and one handcuffed man in an orange jail jumpsuit -- where she'd plead innocent on the criminal charge of tree cultivation.
That there is an inevitable conflict between trees and solar power "is a false proposition," says Ralph Knowles, professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Southern California and an authority on sunlight in urban landscapes. The potential for conflict hinges on the type of tree, he says. Unlike evergreens, deciduous trees shade a yard during summer but shed their leaves in winter, providing light when solar panels are most starved of it.
The Solar Shade Control Act went unnoticed for 30 years, but since December it has come up in several lawsuits, says Stamen, the tree lawsuit specialist. "The legal system," he says, "will see [more of] these cases in the near future."
Treanor and Bissett hope to influence that. "We woke up one morning essentially violating criminal law," says Treanor.
But they learned on March 5 that they had won California State Sen. Joe Simitian's annual "There Ought to Be a Law" contest, in which he solicits legislative suggestions from constituents.
Senator Simitian plans to rework the law to provide greater protection for preexisting trees and address violations as civil disputes between citizens rather than criminal cases.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Rod on Mar 27, 2008 3:25 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stay Tuned, This lawsuit coming up next, otherwise known as the Attorney full employment act of 2008.
When does it end???
Rod
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Mar 27, 2008 9:52 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
everything: NO THEY CAN'T. I have foretold you of the
article's problem many times Alternet/environment. Wind is not
steady enough, most places, to turn off a coal fired power plant at
all. Solar is only good for peak power around noon.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: PLEASE
Posted by: boydranchitos
» Did you loose your shirt already, boydranchitos?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: I told you so.
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: I told you so. Hang on we're coming.
Posted by: symcokid
» How much did they pay for the batteries?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: How much did they pay for the batteries?
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Nuclear doesn't work when water shortages prop up. Besides, nuclear is a water HOG.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Nuclear doesn't work when water shortages prop up. Besides, nuclear is a water HOG.
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: How much did they pay for the batteries?
Posted by: Jayzer
» What garbage is this?
Posted by: PaulC
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Mar 27, 2008 9:55 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
11:10 25 July 2007
Downloaded from: NewScientist.com news service
http://environment.newscientist.com/
article/dn12346-renewable-
energy-could-rape-nature.html
http://www.newscientist.com/
blog/environment/2007/07/
renewable-energy-bad-
nuclear-power-good.html
Phil McKenna
Ramping up the use of renewable energy would lead to the "rape of
nature", meaning nuclear power should be developed instead.
http://www.inderscience.com/
search/index.php?action=record
&rec_id=14671&prevQuery=&
ps=10&m=or
So argues noted conservation biologist and climate change researcher
Jesse Ausubel in an opinion piece based on his and others' research.
http://www.newscientist.com/
channel/opinion/mg18925361.
500-interview-be-
green-think-big.html
Ausubel (who New Scientist interviewed in 2006) says the key renewable
energy sources, including sun, wind, and biomass, would all require vast
amounts of land if developed up to large scale production – unlike nuclear
power. That land would be far better left alone, he says.
Renewables are "boutique fuels" says Ausubel, of Rockefeller University in
New York, US. "They look attractive when they are quite small. But if we
start producing renewable energy on a large scale, the fallout is going to be
horrible."
Instead, Ausubel argues for renewed development of nuclear. "If we want
to minimise the rape of nature, the best energy solution is increased
efficiency, natural gas with carbon capture, and nuclear power."
'Massive infrastructure'
Ausubel draws his conclusions by analysing the amount of energy
renewables, natural gas, and nuclear can produce in terms of power per
square metre of land used. Moreover, he claims that as renewable energy
use increases, this measure of efficiency will decrease as the best land for
wind, biomass, and solar power gets used up.
Using biofuels to obtain the same amount of energy as a 1000 megawatt
nuclear power plant would require 2500 square kilometres of prime
Midwestern farm land, Ausubel says. "We should be sparing land for
nature, not using it as pasture for cars and trucks," he adds.
Solar power is much more efficient than biofuel in terms of the area of land
used, but it would still require 150 square kilometres of photovoltaic cells
to match the energy production of the 1000 MW nuclear plant. In another
example, he says meeting the 2005 US electricity demand via wind power
alone would need 780,000 square kilometres, an area the size of Texas.
Part of the land used in Ausubel's calculations is for storage and
transportation: "Any renewable energy supply needs a massive
infrastructure, including steel, metal, pipes, cables, concrete, and access
roads."
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: see post above
Posted by: boydranchitos
» RE: see post above
Posted by: Squarehead
» Nuclear energy rapes trees far more than renewable energy ever will.
Posted by: maxpayne
» And by the way, water and nuclear
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: enewable energy could 'rape' nature. Keep the trees.
Posted by: Cooltruth
» RE: enewable energy could 'rape' nature. Keep the trees.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: enewable energy could 'rape' nature. Keep the trees.
Posted by: Cooltruth
» The rest of the article
Posted by: zerachiel
» More ignorant crap - how dishonest!
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: More ignorant crap - how dishonest!
Posted by: Cooltruth
» RE: Renewable energy [or Major Error in Calculation
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Mar 28, 2008 12:02 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This fracas leaves me feeling hopeful.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: farhada on Mar 29, 2008 4:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Might want to re-read the article.
Posted by: trappedintwilightzone
» RE: Might want to re-read the article.
Posted by: Jayzer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pkricker on Mar 29, 2008 5:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 29, 2008 6:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» How much of the cannabis are you smoking?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» I'd rather smoke cannabis than inhale radioactive waste. At least I won't get brain cancer.
Posted by: maxpayne
» By the way, hemp can help pull out the nuclear toxins from the ground.
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 29, 2008 6:35 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.wlhn.org/wisconsonian/april99/waterwheel.htm
Hemp components and their usefulness:
http://www.harbay.net/components.html
Now who's ready to take the winning course?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: snax on Mar 29, 2008 7:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Had both neighbors just TALKED to each other before the trees were planted - or at the very least, had the panel owner attempted to enforce his right immediately after their planting, this case would be allot less messy.
Now, they both look like jerks, and in my book, they are. If you can't talk to your neighbors about decisions that will affect their property as well as yours before making a committment to them, or as soon as practically possible, then you deserve all of the legal crap that arises from it.
The lesson here is not about environmentalism at all, but about communication. They may have disagreed over it at the outset, but at least then, the contentiousness of it would have been drastically reduced as one of the parties might not have chosen to make the investment.
Just deserts!
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» If only.
Posted by: trappedintwilightzone
» trees grow
Posted by: e rice
» RE: trees grow
Posted by: Jayzer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: symcokid on Mar 29, 2008 7:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If all else fails find out what Bush would have to say about this perplexing issue, he has the answers to all the other worlds problems.
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Posted by: nmeyer on Mar 29, 2008 8:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So many of the conflicts and issues we face have their roots in overpopulation. The more of us there are, the more crowded we become, the more our values and choices encroach upon others and the biosphere that supports us. War and disease. Ecology 101. If we can't manage our population as a species, we invoke a much less pleasant management upon ourselves. This appears to be what we have chosen, both consciously and unconsciously.
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» RE: More People = More Boundary Encroachment = Conflict
Posted by: Cooltruth
» japan and holland
Posted by: e rice
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EJ on Mar 29, 2008 9:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My parents moved into their house in 1973 and promptly started planting trees to supplement the single pine tree already there. In 1988, the next door neighbors (who had moved in about the same time as my parents had), installed a swimming pool...then looked up and realized that our yard contained a dozen good-sized pine trees. They invited us over to use their pool and asked my dad to remove his trees. When he refused, they took it to court. The judge ruled in my dad's favor, since his trees were there years before the neighbors' pool was installed.
Now, 20 years later, the neighbors who installed the pool have long since moved away. The couple who now live in the house don't use the pool, but they've made no effort to remove it, fill it in, or even clean it, meaning that the pool, which fills with rainwater and yard runoff, is chiefly used by mosquitoes and frogs. Every so often, someone calls the health department and they are forced to clean it so that we don't wind up with an epidemic of West Nile, but otherwise, the pool just sits there, a nasty brown thing.
And at the same time, most of the pine trees still stand.
The moral? Leave the trees alone. They contribute to fresh air, carbon sequestration, and general beauty, while the technology falls to the wayside after a few years when the original owners leave, get bored, or abandon it entirely.
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» RE: Trees vs. Technology
Posted by: DeeOhGee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Mar 29, 2008 11:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Good one...
Posted by: trappedintwilightzone
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ciccio on Mar 29, 2008 11:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
trees beyond the fence. Three seedlings started growing in my little back yard, I was to lazy to pull them out, they are now almost 20'. In summer,when they are in full leaf, my living room is so shaded that it is 10 degrees cooler than the unshaded part of the house. Those trees save a kilowatt of energy, how many solar panels would I need to get that much energy and at what price?
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Mar 29, 2008 12:50 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a totally false premise that no one has questioned. Trees are only positive ecologically where they are native; otherwise, they're just another non-native pest and often displace native plants and animals. For example, Eucalyptus trees are a disaster anywhere outside their native Australia. Their leaves poison the ground so that only Eucalyptus can grow, which not only displaces native plants, but as a result also some native animals.
It is highly unlikely that redwood trees grow naturally in the flatlands of Sunnyvale or Santa Clara. This area was most likely made of grasslands and marsh before Europeans came. So despite the apparent goodness of the defendants and clear lack of environmental values of the solar panel owner, this is actually a no-brainer environmentally.
I understand love of trees, and I share it in natural forests and other areas where trees are native. But trees are not some magical plants that belong everywhere, and planting them where they don't belong can cause more environmental harm than good, as this case shows.
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» Eucalyptus poisons soil??
Posted by: trappedintwilightzone
» RE: ucalyptus poisons soil??
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Mar 30, 2008 12:28 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The place it went that it wasn't supposed to go to is Israel. This happened in a
small town near Pittsburgh, PA circa 1970. A company called Numec was in the
business of reprocessing nuclear fuel. I almost took a job there, designing a
nuclear battery for a heart pacemaker. [A nuclear battery would have the
advantage of lasting many times as long as any other battery, eliminating many
surgeries to replace batteries.] Numec did NOT have a reactor. Numec "lost"
half a ton of enriched uranium. It wound up in Israel. The Israelis have fueled
both their nuclear power plants and their nuclear weapons by stealing nuclear
"waste." It could work for any other country, such as Iran or the United States.
It is only when you don't have access to nuclear "waste" that you have to do the
difficult process of enriching uranium, unless you have a Canadian "Candu"
reactor that runs on unenriched uranium.
Numec is no longer in business. The reprocessing of nuclear fuel in the US
stopped. That was the only politically possible solution at that time, given that
private corporations did the reprocessing. My solution would be to reprocess the
fuel at a Government Owned Government Operated [GOGO] facility. At a
GOGO plant, bureaucracy and the multiplicity of ethnicity and religion would
disable the transportation of uranium to Israel or to any unauthorized place.
Nothing heavier than a secret would get out.
Nobody is paying me to post this.
Nuclear power plants do not consume water. Water may be a convenient coolant, but is not a necessary coolant.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» You haven't done your homework dude.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Yes I can deny the lie that nuclear is a water HOG.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: There is no such thing as nuclear waste.
Posted by: Cooltruth
» Israel has never obtained uranium from the US government.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Mar 31, 2008 8:02 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1 heart disease 1 in 5
2 cancer 1 in 7
3 stroke 1 in 24
4 motor vehicle accident 1 in 84
5 suicide 1 in 119
6 falling 1 in 218
7 firearm assault 1 in 314
8 pedestrian accident 1 in 626
9 drowning 1 in 1008
10 motorcycle accident 1 in 1020
11 fire or smoke 1 in 1113
12 bicycle accident 1 in 4919
13 air/space accident 1 in 5051
14 accidental firearm 1 in 5134
15 accidental electrocution 1 in 9969
16 alcohol poisoning 1 in 10048
17 hot weather 1 in 13729
18 hornet, wasp or bee sting 1 in 56789
19 legal execution 1 in 62468
20 lightning 1 in 79746
21 earthquake 1 in 117127
22 flood 1 in 144156
23 fireworks 1 in 340733
Causes that are missing from the above:
nuclear power plant accident
medical mistake
meteor impact
cold weather
starvation
dehydration
smallpox
war
terrorist strike
boredom
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: The cause of your death
Posted by: Jayzer
» The point is: Nuclear power is the safest available.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: The point is: Nuclear power [Re-post from above, & Thermal considerations
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Rod on Mar 27, 2008 3:25 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stay Tuned, This lawsuit coming up next, otherwise known as the Attorney full employment act of 2008.
When does it end???
Rod
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Mar 27, 2008 9:52 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
everything: NO THEY CAN'T. I have foretold you of the
article's problem many times Alternet/environment. Wind is not
steady enough, most places, to turn off a coal fired power plant at
all. Solar is only good for peak power around noon.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: PLEASE
Posted by: boydranchitos
» Did you loose your shirt already, boydranchitos?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: I told you so.
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: I told you so. Hang on we're coming.
Posted by: symcokid
» How much did they pay for the batteries?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: How much did they pay for the batteries?
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Nuclear doesn't work when water shortages prop up. Besides, nuclear is a water HOG.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Nuclear doesn't work when water shortages prop up. Besides, nuclear is a water HOG.
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: How much did they pay for the batteries?
Posted by: Jayzer
» What garbage is this?
Posted by: PaulC
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Mar 27, 2008 9:55 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
11:10 25 July 2007
Downloaded from: NewScientist.com news service
http://environment.newscientist.com/
article/dn12346-renewable-
energy-could-rape-nature.html
http://www.newscientist.com/
blog/environment/2007/07/
renewable-energy-bad-
nuclear-power-good.html
Phil McKenna
Ramping up the use of renewable energy would lead to the "rape of
nature", meaning nuclear power should be developed instead.
http://www.inderscience.com/
search/index.php?action=record
&rec_id=14671&prevQuery=&
ps=10&m=or
So argues noted conservation biologist and climate change researcher
Jesse Ausubel in an opinion piece based on his and others' research.
http://www.newscientist.com/
channel/opinion/mg18925361.
500-interview-be-
green-think-big.html
Ausubel (who New Scientist interviewed in 2006) says the key renewable
energy sources, including sun, wind, and biomass, would all require vast
amounts of land if developed up to large scale production – unlike nuclear
power. That land would be far better left alone, he says.
Renewables are "boutique fuels" says Ausubel, of Rockefeller University in
New York, US. "They look attractive when they are quite small. But if we
start producing renewable energy on a large scale, the fallout is going to be
horrible."
Instead, Ausubel argues for renewed development of nuclear. "If we want
to minimise the rape of nature, the best energy solution is increased
efficiency, natural gas with carbon capture, and nuclear power."
'Massive infrastructure'
Ausubel draws his conclusions by analysing the amount of energy
renewables, natural gas, and nuclear can produce in terms of power per
square metre of land used. Moreover, he claims that as renewable energy
use increases, this measure of efficiency will decrease as the best land for
wind, biomass, and solar power gets used up.
Using biofuels to obtain the same amount of energy as a 1000 megawatt
nuclear power plant would require 2500 square kilometres of prime
Midwestern farm land, Ausubel says. "We should be sparing land for
nature, not using it as pasture for cars and trucks," he adds.
Solar power is much more efficient than biofuel in terms of the area of land
used, but it would still require 150 square kilometres of photovoltaic cells
to match the energy production of the 1000 MW nuclear plant. In another
example, he says meeting the 2005 US electricity demand via wind power
alone would need 780,000 square kilometres, an area the size of Texas.
Part of the land used in Ausubel's calculations is for storage and
transportation: "Any renewable energy supply needs a massive
infrastructure, including steel, metal, pipes, cables, concrete, and access
roads."
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: see post above
Posted by: boydranchitos
» RE: see post above
Posted by: Squarehead
» Nuclear energy rapes trees far more than renewable energy ever will.
Posted by: maxpayne
» And by the way, water and nuclear
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: enewable energy could 'rape' nature. Keep the trees.
Posted by: Cooltruth
» RE: enewable energy could 'rape' nature. Keep the trees.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: enewable energy could 'rape' nature. Keep the trees.
Posted by: Cooltruth
» The rest of the article
Posted by: zerachiel
» More ignorant crap - how dishonest!
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: More ignorant crap - how dishonest!
Posted by: Cooltruth
» RE: Renewable energy [or Major Error in Calculation
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Mar 28, 2008 12:02 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This fracas leaves me feeling hopeful.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: farhada on Mar 29, 2008 4:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Might want to re-read the article.
Posted by: trappedintwilightzone
» RE: Might want to re-read the article.
Posted by: Jayzer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pkricker on Mar 29, 2008 5:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 29, 2008 6:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» How much of the cannabis are you smoking?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» I'd rather smoke cannabis than inhale radioactive waste. At least I won't get brain cancer.
Posted by: maxpayne
» By the way, hemp can help pull out the nuclear toxins from the ground.
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 29, 2008 6:35 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.wlhn.org/wisconsonian/april99/waterwheel.htm
Hemp components and their usefulness:
http://www.harbay.net/components.html
Now who's ready to take the winning course?
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Posted by: snax on Mar 29, 2008 7:01 AM
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Had both neighbors just TALKED to each other before the trees were planted - or at the very least, had the panel owner attempted to enforce his right immediately after their planting, this case would be allot less messy.
Now, they both look like jerks, and in my book, they are. If you can't talk to your neighbors about decisions that will affect their property as well as yours before making a committment to them, or as soon as practically possible, then you deserve all of the legal crap that arises from it.
The lesson here is not about environmentalism at all, but about communication. They may have disagreed over it at the outset, but at least then, the contentiousness of it would have been drastically reduced as one of the parties might not have chosen to make the investment.
Just deserts!
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» If only.
Posted by: trappedintwilightzone
» trees grow
Posted by: e rice
» RE: trees grow
Posted by: Jayzer
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Posted by: symcokid on Mar 29, 2008 7:58 AM
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If all else fails find out what Bush would have to say about this perplexing issue, he has the answers to all the other worlds problems.
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Posted by: nmeyer on Mar 29, 2008 8:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So many of the conflicts and issues we face have their roots in overpopulation. The more of us there are, the more crowded we become, the more our values and choices encroach upon others and the biosphere that supports us. War and disease. Ecology 101. If we can't manage our population as a species, we invoke a much less pleasant management upon ourselves. This appears to be what we have chosen, both consciously and unconsciously.
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» RE: More People = More Boundary Encroachment = Conflict
Posted by: Cooltruth
» japan and holland
Posted by: e rice
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Posted by: EJ on Mar 29, 2008 9:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My parents moved into their house in 1973 and promptly started planting trees to supplement the single pine tree already there. In 1988, the next door neighbors (who had moved in about the same time as my parents had), installed a swimming pool...then looked up and realized that our yard contained a dozen good-sized pine trees. They invited us over to use their pool and asked my dad to remove his trees. When he refused, they took it to court. The judge ruled in my dad's favor, since his trees were there years before the neighbors' pool was installed.
Now, 20 years later, the neighbors who installed the pool have long since moved away. The couple who now live in the house don't use the pool, but they've made no effort to remove it, fill it in, or even clean it, meaning that the pool, which fills with rainwater and yard runoff, is chiefly used by mosquitoes and frogs. Every so often, someone calls the health department and they are forced to clean it so that we don't wind up with an epidemic of West Nile, but otherwise, the pool just sits there, a nasty brown thing.
And at the same time, most of the pine trees still stand.
The moral? Leave the trees alone. They contribute to fresh air, carbon sequestration, and general beauty, while the technology falls to the wayside after a few years when the original owners leave, get bored, or abandon it entirely.
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» RE: Trees vs. Technology
Posted by: DeeOhGee
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Posted by: willymack on Mar 29, 2008 11:29 AM
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» Good one...
Posted by: trappedintwilightzone
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Posted by: ciccio on Mar 29, 2008 11:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
trees beyond the fence. Three seedlings started growing in my little back yard, I was to lazy to pull them out, they are now almost 20'. In summer,when they are in full leaf, my living room is so shaded that it is 10 degrees cooler than the unshaded part of the house. Those trees save a kilowatt of energy, how many solar panels would I need to get that much energy and at what price?
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Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Mar 29, 2008 12:50 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a totally false premise that no one has questioned. Trees are only positive ecologically where they are native; otherwise, they're just another non-native pest and often displace native plants and animals. For example, Eucalyptus trees are a disaster anywhere outside their native Australia. Their leaves poison the ground so that only Eucalyptus can grow, which not only displaces native plants, but as a result also some native animals.
It is highly unlikely that redwood trees grow naturally in the flatlands of Sunnyvale or Santa Clara. This area was most likely made of grasslands and marsh before Europeans came. So despite the apparent goodness of the defendants and clear lack of environmental values of the solar panel owner, this is actually a no-brainer environmentally.
I understand love of trees, and I share it in natural forests and other areas where trees are native. But trees are not some magical plants that belong everywhere, and planting them where they don't belong can cause more environmental harm than good, as this case shows.
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» Eucalyptus poisons soil??
Posted by: trappedintwilightzone
» RE: ucalyptus poisons soil??
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Mar 30, 2008 12:28 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The place it went that it wasn't supposed to go to is Israel. This happened in a
small town near Pittsburgh, PA circa 1970. A company called Numec was in the
business of reprocessing nuclear fuel. I almost took a job there, designing a
nuclear battery for a heart pacemaker. [A nuclear battery would have the
advantage of lasting many times as long as any other battery, eliminating many
surgeries to replace batteries.] Numec did NOT have a reactor. Numec "lost"
half a ton of enriched uranium. It wound up in Israel. The Israelis have fueled
both their nuclear power plants and their nuclear weapons by stealing nuclear
"waste." It could work for any other country, such as Iran or the United States.
It is only when you don't have access to nuclear "waste" that you have to do the
difficult process of enriching uranium, unless you have a Canadian "Candu"
reactor that runs on unenriched uranium.
Numec is no longer in business. The reprocessing of nuclear fuel in the US
stopped. That was the only politically possible solution at that time, given that
private corporations did the reprocessing. My solution would be to reprocess the
fuel at a Government Owned Government Operated [GOGO] facility. At a
GOGO plant, bureaucracy and the multiplicity of ethnicity and religion would
disable the transportation of uranium to Israel or to any unauthorized place.
Nothing heavier than a secret would get out.
Nobody is paying me to post this.
Nuclear power plants do not consume water. Water may be a convenient coolant, but is not a necessary coolant.
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» You haven't done your homework dude.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Yes I can deny the lie that nuclear is a water HOG.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: There is no such thing as nuclear waste.
Posted by: Cooltruth
» Israel has never obtained uranium from the US government.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Mar 31, 2008 8:02 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1 heart disease 1 in 5
2 cancer 1 in 7
3 stroke 1 in 24
4 motor vehicle accident 1 in 84
5 suicide 1 in 119
6 falling 1 in 218
7 firearm assault 1 in 314
8 pedestrian accident 1 in 626
9 drowning 1 in 1008
10 motorcycle accident 1 in 1020
11 fire or smoke 1 in 1113
12 bicycle accident 1 in 4919
13 air/space accident 1 in 5051
14 accidental firearm 1 in 5134
15 accidental electrocution 1 in 9969
16 alcohol poisoning 1 in 10048
17 hot weather 1 in 13729
18 hornet, wasp or bee sting 1 in 56789
19 legal execution 1 in 62468
20 lightning 1 in 79746
21 earthquake 1 in 117127
22 flood 1 in 144156
23 fireworks 1 in 340733
Causes that are missing from the above:
nuclear power plant accident
medical mistake
meteor impact
cold weather
starvation
dehydration
smallpox
war
terrorist strike
boredom
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» RE: The cause of your death
Posted by: Jayzer
» The point is: Nuclear power is the safest available.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: The point is: Nuclear power [Re-post from above, & Thermal considerations
Posted by: Squarehead
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