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Environment

There Are Green '08 Candidates, and Then There Are Some That Aren't ... at All

By Tara Lohan, AlterNet. Posted February 4, 2008.


Which candidates support nuclear and coal? Who's fighting climate change and supports renewables? Here's the scoop.
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If you're not sure where presidential contenders, Democratic or Republican, stand on environmental issues -- it's not surprising. There has been little discussion in the debates.

According to the Natural Resources Defense Action Fund, you're more likely to know what a candidate thinks of UFOs than their position on what we should do about global warming. On Tim Russert's Meet the Press there have been 827 questions to candidates and zero mentioned global warming. Same for George Stephanopoulos on ABC's This Week and Bob Schiefffer on CBS's Face the Nation. CNN's Wolf Blitzer had two questions out of 402 and Chris Wallace on Fox also had two out of 563.

Despite mainstream media's coverage, the candidates' positions stand on global warming and our energy future should be a pressing concern for voters. And there are differences between the candidates.

What are the main issues?

Carbon emissions

Let's start with Clinton. The League of Conservation Voters (LCV) has given Clinton a lifetime score of 90 (out of 100) points in her record on the environment and her policies. She is a co-sponsor of the Global Warming Pollution Reduction Act, considered by many to be the strongest global warming legislation introduced in the Senate.

In many instances she falls right in step with LCV's guidelines. Like LCV, to deal with global warming she supports a mandatory cap on emissions and an 80 percent reduction on carbon emissions by 2050. This is the language that most environmental groups are supporting, including the popular Step It Up and 1Sky campaigns.

Obama, who has a score of 96 from LCV, and is also a co-sponsor of the Global Warming Pollution Reduction Act, has the same position. These two Democrats fall right in step with the mainstream environmental movement on this point.

For Republicans, the story is different. McCain (LCV score of 26), has billed himself as the most enviro-friendly of his party and was recently endorsed by Gov. Schwarzenegger at a solar roofing company, of all places. The governor said of McCain, "He's a crusader, has a great vision in protecting the environment and also protecting the economy."

McCain introduced legislation (with Joe Lieberman) in the Senate, called the Climate Stewardship and Innovation Act, which would cap emissions at 2004 levels by 2012 and then decrease them by 30 percent by 2050, a much less ambitious plan than what many environmental organizations and leading scientists have said is necessary.

The rest of the Republican field doesn't offer much. Huckabee (no score from LCV) said he would support cap and trade but hasn't given any specifics; Ron Paul (LCV score of 30) does not support cap and trade; and Romney (no score from LCV) says no unless the rest of the world also participates in the system -- so much for the United States taking a leading role in world politics on this one.

Fuel efficiency

Clinton supports setting a fuel efficiency level of 40 mpg by 2020 and 50 mpg by 2030, pretty much in line with LVC and other enviros as well. Obama is similar but gives a bit of a break to the bigger vehicles, supporting 40 mpg by 2020 but only 32 for light trucks.

McCain says he supports raising standards but hasn't offered specifics. While Huckabee is on board for 35 mpg by 2020. Romney and Paul both oppose fuel efficiency standards.

Energy consumption and renewables

Things get a little more dicey with the candidates on specific energy policy. Clinton supports 25 percent of energy from renewables by 2025 and LCV advocates for 20 percent by 2020. She also supports a 20 percent reduction in energy consumption by 2020 -- a bit above LCV's 10 percent.

Obama also advocates 25 percent by 2025, but while Clinton calls for a $50 billion investment fund for renewables, Obama sets the bar at $150 billion. And he calls for a 50 percent reduction by 2030 in consumption.

McCain and Romney support renewables but don't offer any plan. Huckabee calls for 15 percent of energy from renewables by 2020 (but this also includes "clean coal" and nuclear). And Paul is willing to let the market try to solve this problem and opposes using subsidies to help that process out.

Coal

There is really no candidate in the race right now that gets it right on coal.

LCV, Step It Up, 1Sky, and other environmental organizations support a moratorium on all new coal plants unless they capture and store carbon -- meaning they can burn coal but they have to get rid of the carbon emissions. However, the reality is that carbon capture is a technology that has so far remained unproven at the industrial level. Plans to store carbon underground have run into much criticism. Also, residents of coal country, particularly Appalachia, have come out strongly against any technology using coal, because the extraction and cleaning process, which involves blowing up mountains, burying rivers and polluting watershed and communities, wreaks environmental and cultural havoc.


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Tara Lohan is a managing editor at AlterNet.

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View:
Different Accounting Method
Posted by: NoPCZone on Feb 4, 2008 1:43 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are votes and then there are votes- not all votes tallied are equal.

What am I getting at? Glad you asked. Should a vote pleasing to the environmentally conscious on a bill that stands no chance at all of passing count for anything? How about compared to going along with the PAC money crowd and voting for something anti-environment that actually stood a chance with your vote. See, all votes are not equal.

How about the systemic mangling of a bill when it is being drafted? If you don't want something to pass but are too chicken to be counted, you introduce and amendment, rider or earmark sure to poison the punch bowl. Then you can vote for a bill you know will lose but still keep your big money contributors happy.

What is more important than a list of votes is a record of getting legislation written, passed and signed into law that actually accomplishes something. By that standard, the LCV scores might be very different.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Different Accounting Method Posted by: davescott
miscellaneous comments
Posted by: davescott on Feb 4, 2008 3:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for your piece. I am an active enviromentalist. LCV does a real service by doing scorecards. The biggest myth to bust this year is the notion that John McCain has a good environmental record: on most issues (wilderness, forests, pollution) he has an awful record and his Senate LCV scores confirm that. McCain has mostly voted with his GOP colleagues, meaning with industry. Even his carbon bill (now Leiberman/Warner) is flawed by being a massive giveaway to industrial polluters.

Obama made a mistake supporting coal-to-liquids, a huge source of greenhouse gases. He rectified that error by imposing a condition the process can't meet (20 percent reductions) after he got himself in a corner by currying favor with coal producers.

You write one thing that concerns me. You write that "Obama has taken a position that has resulted in a lot of heat from enviros by supporting nuclear energy, and THEIR climate change bill in Congress would give generous subsidies to the nuke industry." I'm not sure who your pronoun refers to. Enviros? Major enviromental organizations are split on the Leiberman-Warner carbon markets bill, with corporate-friendly Environmental Defense praising it, Sierra Club and others saying it must be improved to be supported, but that we need carbon legislation, and some other groups saying kill the bill. Many leading enviro groups oppose nuclear energy, Sierra Club included.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

"their" climate bill
Posted by: davescott on Feb 4, 2008 4:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As I mention in my post above, the article states that "Obama has taken a position that has resulted in a lot of heat from enviros by supporting nuclear energy and their climate change bill in Congress would give generous subsidies to the nuke industry." Major enviro groups are deeply divided over the Leiberman/Warner bill, ranging from corporate-schmoozing Environmental Defense (ED's)fulsome support, to Sierra Club's position that the bill must be improved substanstially, to others who oppose it. (My understanding is that NRDC is following ED's position here, and if so, that is unfortunate.) As written, McCain's climate bill (now Leiberman/Warner) is a staggering giveway to industrial polluters. That needs to be changed by a friendlier President and Congress. It makes far more sense to press for climate legislation after the 2008 elections sweep more right-wingers out of the Senate, which they almost certainly will just based on Senate numbers alone. As for your comment on nuclear subsidies, the Sierra Club and many other groups oppose subsidies for nuclear power.

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Let's ask which candidates support hemp for fuel. Strong question IMO.
Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 4, 2008 6:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So far that would put Obama over the top since I hear he supports the legalization of hemp. Now, if Obama can be a political vigilante and overcome the GOP and DLC who will trash him on his marijuana use despite the fact that alcohol, Big Phrma drugs, tobacco, fast food, junk food are far more damaging than marijuana.

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» RE: Let's ask about Nuclear!! Posted by: Andie927
Save Appalachia!
Posted by: firework_kid on Feb 4, 2008 7:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you so much for mentioning Appalachia and Mountain Top Removal in your piece. It's dumbfounding that in the discussion of coal, extraction is rarely mentioned. The bottom line is: even if you could somehow store the emissions from coal, there's still an insane amount of carbon emissions from extraction and transport, not to mention the amount of explosives used every day in Appalachia to destroy the natural landscape, and, christ, the environmental effects of the cleaning process on the people who live near the coal fields.

I've been there. I've seen mountains destroyed and the black water that people shower in that burns their eyes and gives them myriad illnesses.

If anyone would like more information or would like to get involved, this is a good place to get started:
http://www.mountainjusticesummer.org/

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OBAMA major supporter of coal
Posted by: Charlow on Feb 4, 2008 7:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It continues to mystify me that no one in the press or in the progressive movement is focusing on that fact that Senator Obama continues to be a major supporter of coal, including massive federal subsidy of coal. He has twice (most recently in December) co-sponsored legislation, with Sen Bunning, a Republican from Kentucky, legislation called the Coal to Liquid Fuel Act of 2007, that would provide massive subsidy of the coal industry.

That is the last thing we need if we are to make a real transition to a global economy based on renewable energy technologies. Let's get one thing straight here -- there is no such thing as "Clean Coal." Carbon sequestration is still a dream in the coal promoters' eyes. Even if a potentially workable technique for doing this is developed, there is no assurance that it will work, essentially in perpetuity. We need to demand the same standards for carbon sequestration as we now do for long term storage of radioactive waste -- that it will last for eternity. Also any attempts at carbon sequestration are likely to be massively expensive and of course, the R&D will be paid for by us taxpayers and if it is ever attempted commercially, we will pay for it again, at the gas pump or in our electricity bills.

Finally, coal, even if every aspect of its burning or conversion to other forms of fuel were made completely clean, there is still the problem of mining the stuff. If there is to be even a modest expansion of the use of coal in our country, that will simply mean wholesale strip mining of the Rocky Mountain west and the northern Great Plains, some of the most beautiful wild country we have have left in our country, as well as acceleration of the shsameful practice of "mountaintop removal," in Appalachia. This procedure has become the norm for extracting coal in West Virginia under the Bush administration and should we even be considering electing someone to be our next Presidenet who is one record, even now, of expanding all these disastrous policies? I don't think so. Where is the press, the progressive press especially, on this?

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Price-Anderson
Posted by: wolfcry on Feb 4, 2008 7:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about repealing the Price-Anderson Act? That should be an easy one to support for Ron Paul as well as any candidate concerned about nuclear power. It would be the stake through the heart of that monster.

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Ignoring energy efficiency throws away the best weapon against GHGs
Posted by: Joe Browder on Feb 4, 2008 9:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article in an unfortunately accurate reflection of environmental community priorities: no serious focus on energy efficiency as the fastest, cheapest, cleanest way to reduce the growth of coal-fired power, and to reduce the emission of greenhouse gases, all over the world. Why do we correctly focus on the value of efficiency in the transportation sector (fuel economy), but in the world of real politics put efficiency last on the list -- or even omit efficiency all together -- when looking at that part of the economy where most energy is used, where most greenhouse gases are emitted, and where the highest growth in both energy use and GHG production is taking place? Of course we need to stimulate more well-sited solar and wind generation -- but even the most optimistic scenarios for investments in renewables won't make a significant difference in future global GHG emissions unless we are also making commensurate investments in energy efficiency in commercial buildings, homes, and schools and other public buildings.

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This and that
Posted by: willymack on Feb 4, 2008 11:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ok, who in his right mind thinks ANY of the rethug clowns, including Paul is remotely qualified to run the White House? Hint: A vote for any of them means more of the same old crap that's been going on for the last 7+ years. Which man among us would willfully deny a woman the right to contraception or abortion? This is a woman's issue, and NO man's business. Who thinks that conmingling religion with government is a GOOD idea? Who thinks that making tax cuts for the rich was a good idea, and should not only be made permanent but INCREASED? Who thinks that our bellicose foreign policy has made us new friends or has even worked? Who's still hung up on burning this or that for our energy and actually thinks it's good for our enviornment and health? Who thinks an indefinite "war" in the Middle East is good for anybody? Vote for ANY of the vainglorious fools on the rethug side, and you'll get most, if not all the above. Who in his right mind wants that?

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» RE: This and that Posted by: Dboy
Still mainstream... ironic for a 'who's more "Green"' piece
Posted by: DaBear on Feb 4, 2008 11:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No mention of the Green party or other third party candidates.

Oh yes, I understand why, and all the rest of the typical sheeple-mindset 'Merkaan bullshit. Fact is, the best candidates with Green policies are the Green candidates. But, shhh, let's not talk about them because this is a horse race between the two stoopid camps of aristocrats....

A very important topic with a screwy "discussion" on a Dim-dominated "altnerative" media site. It's still a vote of lesser-evilism which means fundamentally, that come 2009 the status quo will be presevered and the wealthy Dims can pretend it's gonna get better (for them). Meanwhile the rest of us get in line to drive right over the Olduvai cliff. How typically 'Merkaan.

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Interesting that consumerism, population growth, feeding cars instead of people, etc. aren't issues
Posted by: Rune on Feb 4, 2008 11:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
. . . worthy of consideration by this article. Just to name but a few major oversights and signs of a skewed perspective about what lifts environmental issues to the level of crises.

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Family planning & reducing population growth?
Posted by: stilldreaming on Feb 4, 2008 1:31 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yup, the candidates don't mention it, and neither do journalists.

Yet another example in which ideology trumps reality, and we all are going to pay for it dearly when nature (or God?) are going to use their catastrophical, painful ways to reduce human population.

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Use Of LCV Scorecards
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Feb 4, 2008 3:11 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, the League of Conservation politician ratings should be used as a STARTING POINT in determining for whom to vote, not as a complete guide.

Second, the way to interpret the scores is this: any score below 90 should raise questions about a candidate, and further research into the votes that caused the score to fall below 90 need to be researched. No candidate with a score below 80 is even worth considering. These scores should be used for screening out bad candidates, not supporting good ones. It's obvious, for example by Clinton's and Obama's high scores, that a politician can be pretty weak on environmental and ecological protection (not to mention restoration!) and still get a good score. As the poster above wrote, the only really strong environmental candidates left after Dennis Kucinich dropped out are those of the Green Party.

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Tara Lohan, you are WRONG. How many time have I told you?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 4, 2008 7:42 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With a new interest from much of the world in global warming, the nuclear
industry is making a comeback, because nuclear is a clean, safe, plentiful and
renewable source of energy.

Everything, including yourself, is made of atoms. All atoms have nuclei. You
have many atomic nuclei inside yourself since you are made of atoms. The
simplest nucleus is one proton. That would be a hydrogen atom. An oxygen
atom has 8 protons and either 8, 9 or 10 neutrons in its nucleus. All other nuclei
also have neutrons. Uranium has 92 protons and either 143 or 146 neutrons. If it
has 143 neutrons it is U235. If it has 146 neutrons, it is U238. Nuclear fuel is
only 2% to 8% U235, the kind that fissions/divides, providing energy. The rest is
U238 that doesn't fission. A nuclear reaction happens when a neutron is captured
by a nucleus. If a U235 nucleus captures a neutron, the nucleus and the atom split
approximately in half and 3 more neutrons are released because the 2 smaller
nuclei don't need so many neutrons. If a U238 nucleus captures a neutron, it
ejects an electron and the neutron becomes a proton. The U238 thus becomes
Plutonium 239. Plutonium is fissionable, which means that plutonium is a good
fuel. If you add Thorium to the fuel, you can make more fissionable uranium. If
a Thorium atom nucleus captures a neutron, it ejects an electron and the neutron
becomes a proton. The Thorium atom thus becomes U233. U233 is fissionable.

Depending on the design of the reactor and the mix of the fuel, the fuel % in the
reactor can either grow or shrink. It is kind of like the fuel gauge can go either up
or down, but it is more like the reactor can run hotter or cooler over time. The
temperature is kept constant by adjusting the control rods. A breeder reactor is a
reactor designed to make the fissionable part of the fuel load grow rapidly.
Normally, fuel is left in the reactor for about 10 years, or 10% of the fuel is
replaced each year. The reprocessing step sorts out the fuel and puts the
percentage of fissionable fuel back to the starting percentage. In the process,
plutonium may be removed and either wasted or used as fuel. If we add thorium
to the fuel, we can make more uranium than we put in. Since the earth contains
more than twice as much thorium as uranium, it would be wise to make thorium
into uranium. By reprocessing nuclear fuel, we get an enormous, many centuries
long fuel supply. The products of fission are also removed when fuel is
reprocessed. These are just other ordinary atoms that are no longer useful as fuel.
The quantity is very small. We should reprocess fuel to keep the fuel load at the
correct percentage of fissionable fuel for the particular reactor design. Instead, we
go through the expensive process of making more "virgin" fuel for each new fuel
load. This greatly increases the price you pay for electricity. We are not
reprocessing nuclear fuel for political reasons.

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There is no such thing as nuclear "waste." It is recyclable FUEL.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 4, 2008 7:46 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We don't recycle nuclear fuel because spent fuel is valuable and people steal it.
The place it went that it wasn't supposed to go to is Israel. This happened in a
small town near Pittsburgh, PA circa 1970. A company called Numec was in the
business of reprocessing nuclear fuel. I almost took a job there, designing a
nuclear battery for a heart pacemaker. [A nuclear battery would have the
advantage of lasting many times as long as any other battery, eliminating many
surgeries to replace batteries.] Numec did NOT have a reactor. Numec "lost"
half a ton of enriched uranium. It wound up in Israel. The Israelis have fueled
both their nuclear power plants and their nuclear weapons by stealing nuclear
"waste." It could work for any other country, such as Iran or the United States.
It is only when you don't have access to nuclear "waste" that you have to do the
difficult process of enriching uranium, unless you have a Canadian "Candu"
reactor that runs on unenriched uranium.
Numec is no longer in business. The reprocessing of nuclear fuel in the US
stopped. That was the only politically possible solution at that time, given that
private corporations did the reprocessing. My solution would be to reprocess the
fuel at a Government Owned Government Operated [GOGO] facility. At a
GOGO plant, bureaucracy and the multiplicity of ethnicity and religion would
disable the transportation of uranium to Israel or to any unauthorized place.
Nothing heavier than a secret would get out.

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The choices are nuclear power OR extinction OR collapse of civilization
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 4, 2008 7:51 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
October 2006 Scientific American

"EARTH SCIENCE
Impact from the Deep
Strangling heat and gases emanating from the earth and sea, not
asteroids, most likely caused several ancient mass extinctions.
Could the same killer-greenhouse conditions build once again?
By Peter D. Ward
downloaded from:
http://www.sciam.com/
article.cfm?articleID=
00037A5D-A938-150E-
A93883414B7F0000&
sc=I100322
....................Most of the article omitted......................
But with atmospheric carbon climbing at an annual rate of 2 ppm
and expected to accelerate to 3 ppm, levels could approach 900
ppm by the end of the next century, and conditions that bring
about the beginnings of ocean anoxia may be in place. How soon
after that could there be a new greenhouse extinction? That is
something our society should never find out."

Press Release
Pennsylvania State University
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, Nov. 3, 2003
downloaded from:
http://www.geosociety.org/meetings/2003/prPennStateKump.htm
"In the end-Permian, as the levels of atmospheric oxygen fell and
the levels of hydrogen sulfide and carbon dioxide rose, the upper
levels of the oceans could have become rich in hydrogen sulfide
catastrophically. This would kill most of the oceanic plants and
animals. The hydrogen sulfide dispersing in the atmosphere would
kill most terrestrial life."

www.astrobio.net is a NASA web zine. See:

http://www.astrobio.net/
news/modules.php?op=
modload&name=News&
file=article&sid=672

http://www.astrobio.net/
news/modules.php?op=
modload&name=News&
file=article&sid=1535

http://www.astrobio.net/
news/article2509.html

http://astrobio.net/news/
modules.php?op=modload
&name=News&file=article
&sid=2429&mode=thread
&order=0&thold=0

These articles agree with the first 2. They all say 6 degrees C or
1000 parts per million CO2 is the extinction point.

The global warming is already 1 degree Farenheit. 11 degrees
Farenheit is about 6 degrees Celsius. The book "Six Degrees" by
Mark Lynas agrees. If the global warming is 6 degrees
centigrade, we humans go extinct. See:
http://www.marklynas.org/
2007/4/23/six-steps-to-hell-
summary-of-six-degrees-as-
published-in-the-guardian

ALL COAL FIRED POWER PLANTS MUST BE
CONVERTED TO NUCLEAR IMMEDIATELY TO AVOID
THE EXTINCTION OF US HUMANS. 32 countries have
nuclear power plants. Only 9 have the bomb. The top 3
producers of CO2 all have nuclear power plants, coal fired power
plants and nuclear bombs. They are the USA, China and India.
Reducing CO2 production by 90% by 2050 requires drastic action
in the USA, China and India.

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Climate goes out of control in 8 years
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 4, 2008 7:56 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great damage has been done, but we still have 8 years before natural positive
feedbacks lead to our extinction. Sea level will continue to rise even if we
disappear right now, but that is "minor" compared to poison gas bubbling out of
the ocean and killing almost everything including all of the people.
See the chart on page 274 of "Six Degrees" by Mark Lynas. We have until 2015
to BEGIN REDUCING our total CO2 output and we have until 2050 to actually
reduce our CO2 output by 90%. The curve has to start down by 2015, not we
have to think about it by then. The peak of our CO2 production has to happen in
the next 8 years.
How are YOU going to do it? Go ahead and invest YOUR money.
If we don't follow the schedule in Six Degrees, we will encounter positive
feedbacks which will take the control of the climate out of our hands.
Civilization may fall anyway well before 2050, but we can avoid going extinct by
2100. We have to hold the CO2 level to 400 parts per million to have a 75%
chance of avoiding the positive feedbacks. The natural positive feedbacks are
explained in Six Degrees.

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Large scale wind power requires technology we don't have.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 4, 2008 8:13 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wind energy requires that Direct Current [DC] be transmitted
over enormous areas [more than one continent] to provide
continuous power because wind varies from minute to minute.
Direct current is required because the voltage and frequency of
AC would change minute by minute with wind speed. Long
distance DC transmission requires superconducting cable. DC
just doesn't go far otherwise.
Reference:
http://www.terrawatts.com: Liquid nitrogen is still required.
http://www.alternet.org/environment/69888

Following the http://www.terrawatts.com lead, you arrive at the
statement that the "high temperature" superconductor will be
cooled by liquid nitrogen. See:
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?
ArticleID=942#_When_will_HTS
The need for liquid nitrogen is the achilles heal of this scheme. It
isn't really a "room" temperature superconductor. Any accidental
warming brings the grid to a halt. Energy is required to make
liquid nitrogen. Dry nitrogen must be cooled to 77 degrees
Kelvin to make it a liquid. The cable has to be thermally
insulated and cooled its entire length. The cable also must be
physically separated into "out" and "return" wires, and the force
between the 2 wires will be large. As stated in the article, it won't
be cheap.

Any warming above the superconducting temperature or too much
magnetic field will cause the cable to quit superconducting at that
point. The cable will instantly melt, creating an electric arc. All
of the energy that was flowing through that spot will instead be
dumped there, creating an explosion. The power grid will be
disabled for some time since repairing a superconducting cable is
not as easy as splicing a wire. Is this the kind of electric service
you really want? We really don't have the technology yet.

What about storing wind energy as compressed air? Check the
efficiency, the availability of leak proof caverns, etc. Storing
wind energy as compressed air is a pie in the sky. What about
storing wind energy in batteries? We can't make that many
batteries. Another pie in the sky.

Wind energy wastes energy because the wind varies so much that
a "spinning reserve" is required in most locations. If you are
running the steam powered generator at the spinning reserve rate,
you may as well use the steam as your energy source and forget
about the wind. Wind turbines are decorations, not sources of
energy for the grid until we have room temperature
superconductors. There are special locations and circumstances
where wind energy is useful, but wind cannot replace coal and
nuclear any time soon.

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» RE: wind power MUST be decentralized Posted by: AsteroidMiner
Looking for GREEN candidates?
Posted by: smendler on Feb 4, 2008 8:25 PM   
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GREEN PARTY

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Compare nuclear ot coal
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 4, 2008 8:29 PM   
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Coal is almost pure carbon, except for the URANIUM, ARSENIC, LEAD,
MERCURY, Antimony, Cobalt, Nickel, Copper, Selenium, Barium, Fluorine,
Silver, Beryllium, Iron, Sulfur, Boron, Titanium, Cadmium, Magnesium,
Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium, Chlorine, Aluminum, Chromium, Molybdenum
and Zinc that are coal's impurities. Coal smoke and cinders are commercially
viable ORE for the above elements.
Chinese industrial grade coal is sometimes stolen by peasants for cooking. The
result is that the whole family dies of arsenic poisoning because Chinese
industrial grade coal contains large amounts of arsenic. Coal varies a lot.
You have to analyze it not only mine by mine but even lump by lump.
Reference:
OUR NUCLEAR FUTURE:
THE PATH OF SELECTIVE IGNORANCE
by Alex Gabbard
Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Oak Ridge, TN
Selections from the 19th Annual Conference
SOUTHERN FUTURE SOCIETY
March 14,15,16, 1996
Nashville, Tennessee

Published by the
SOUTHERN FUTURE SOCIETY
1996
Edited by Jack D. Arters, Ed.D.
Conference Director
The truth is, all natural rocks contain most natural elements. Coal is a rock.
The average concentration of uranium in coal is 1 or 2 parts per million. Illinois
coal contains up to 103 parts per million uranium. A 1000 million watt coal
fired power plant burns 4 million tons of coal each year. If you multiply 4
million tons by 1 part per million, you get 4 tons of uranium. Most of that is
U238. About .7% is U235. 4 tons = 8000 pounds. 8000 pounds times .7% =
56 pounds of U235. An average 1000 million watt coal fired power plant puts
out 56 to 112 pounds of U235 every year. There are only 2 places the uranium
can go: Up the stack or into the cinders.
Since a reactor full fuel load is around 11 tons of 2% U235 and 98% U238, and
one load lasts about 10 years, and what one coal fired power plant puts into the
air and cinders fully fuels a nuclear power plant.
Compare 4 Million tons per year with 1.1 tons per year. 1.1 divided by 4 Million
= 2.75 E -7 = .000000275 =.0000275%. Remember that only 2% of that is
U235. The nuclear power plant needs ~44 pounds of U235 per year. The coal
fired power plant burns coal by the trainload. The nuclear power plant consumes
U235 in such small quantities yearly that you could carry that much weight in a
briefcase.
See: http://www.ornl.gov/ORNLReview/rev26-34/text/coalmain.html

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Break Through in environmental thought
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 4, 2008 8:39 PM   
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Reference the book: "Break Through" by Ted Nordhaus and Michael Shellenberger, 2007.

I am on page 184. The message so far is: "Environmentalists have the wrong
message." Nordhaus and Shellenberger recommend changing from a message
about limits and separating people from nature to a message about growth of clean
energy and seeing people as part of nature. Clearly humans are part of nature.
We ARE chimpanzees. Human is a race of apes. It is just that our big brains
enable us to do a lot of things no other animal has ever done before, both good and
bad for earth life. We ARE clearly part of our Universe and we cannot be
separate from it. On the good side, we are the only organism capable of spreading
earth life to other planets and defending Mother Earth from giant asteroid impacts.
On the bad side, we are capable of causing our own extinction by means of global
warming. A total global warming of 11 degrees Fahrenheit will cause H2S to
bubble out of the oceans and kill everybody and almost all of the other life forms
that we care about. We have already caused one degree Fahrenheit of global
warming and natural positive feedbacks may kick in soon.

"Between 2007 and 2020, China will invest $128 billion in coal." This is on page
117 of the referenced book. The US has 112 Gigawatts of coal fired power plants
on order. That is 112 standard unit coal fired power plants. The US, China and India are building nearly 900 coal fired power plants. Nuclear power is clean, safe energy as coal will never be. Nuclear technology is something that the US can sell and something that can be a growth industry. Nuclear power can save us from extinction by global warming and provide good high paying jobs. What is needed is education on the subject of nuclear power. People who understand nuclear power are in favor of it. It is ignorance that makes people protest against nuclear power. "Environmentalists for Nuclear Energy", by B. Comby is a good textbook for a high school level course in nuclear power.

I have zero financial interest in nuclear power, and I never have had a financial
interest in nuclear power. My sole motivation in writing this is to avoid death by
H2S gas.

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Green candidates?
Posted by: leland61 on Feb 4, 2008 9:04 PM   
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Not when you only mention the two heads of the single party of the corporate kleptocracy. They have shills and shells that they move around on the table to fool the permanently foolish, including the 'liberal' press.

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Nuclear power is the safest.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 4, 2008 9:31 PM   
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There are two types of 21st century reactors that cannot melt down no matter how
badly they are treated. Safety is guaranteed by laws of physics.
In the pebble bed reactors, stopping coolant flow removes the space between
fuel pellets. The space between fuel pellets must be filled with moving water.
The water is the moderator to slow down the neutrons so that the reaction can take
place. No coolant flow, no reaction. These pebble bed reactors will never
experience a meltdown. It just can't happen because of laws of nature. The US
has 2 pebble bed reactors.
In the recommended and newly invented helium cooled reactor, the core is
made of high temperature [refractory] materials that simply will not melt if coolant
flow ceases. The core is cooled from a higher temperature by heating the
containment building, which also does not melt. The containment building heats
its surroundings in the case of coolant flow loss. The helium cooled reactor uses
helium as the working fluid to turn a turbine. Helium gas is the ideal fluid to turn
a turbine because it can be made very pure so that the turbine blades will last a
very long time.
Safety is assured in all US built reactors by the containment building, which is a
pressure vessel and which, as in the case of the now obsolete 3 mile island reactor,
can and did contain the overheated core. There were ZERO casualties.

American reactors are now too safe. Nuclear power is overpriced because of the
excessive safety. 20,000 to 30,000 Americans die each year because of those
poisons I listed below that come out of coal fired power plants. It is C O A L fired
power plants that kill 20,000 to 30,000 Americans each year. Nuclear power
plants kill ZERO Americans each year. It is COAL burning that will make us go
extinct in about 200 years if we keep doing it.

The problem is that we OVERSHOT on safety design because of people who
protest nuclear power. American reactors are TOO safe. It is C O A L fired
power plants that give you 100 times as much radiation. Coal is almost pure
carbon, except for the URANIUM, ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY, Antimony,
Cobalt, Nickel, Copper, Selenium, Barium, Fluorine, Silver, Beryllium, Iron,
Sulfur, Boron, Titanium, Cadmium, Magnesium, Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium,
Chlorine, Aluminum, Chromium, Molybdenum and Zinc that are coal's impurities.
We could fuel our nuclear plants from the uranium and thorium in the smoke and
cinders from coal fired power plants. Coal cinders are an economically viable ore
for several of the listed impurities.

I have zero financial interest in nuclear power, and I never have had a financial
interest in nuclear power. My sole motivation in writing this is to avoid death by
H2S gas.

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Winter is almost gone
Posted by: BlackbirdHighway on Feb 5, 2008 4:22 AM   
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Back in the 70's, winter here began in December. Last year, we didn't get anyting remotely resembling winter weather until Feburary. This year, it's Feb. 5th, and the forecast is 70 degrees. This is not a fluke, it is becoming the new "norm", but it is most definitely NOT normal.

I don't like any global warming plan that has a goal for 2050. That is too far off, and you can't tell if we are moving toward it or not. I think that is by design; just push off making any real changes until later.

We need a plan with goals for 2010, 2015, 2020, and 2025.

And by the way, like it or not, nuclear is going to be needed to reduce global warming. It's not the nicest stuff in the world, but we can't just continue to burn coal. It has to be part of the solution. Renewables like solar and wind can help too. And there needs to be a great big push for electric cars.

At this point, Clinton seems to be about the best candidate on the environment. Romney and Huck are the absolute worst.

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Ron Paul and Pollution
Posted by: SKPython on Feb 6, 2008 10:44 PM   
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As is usual for him, Rep. Paul has voted against environmental regulations, even as he has voted against subsidies for energy companies. In order to understand his position and why he is the most environmentalist candidate, you need to understand his view of pollution. Dr. Paul believes that all pollution is trespass. The leachage into the rivers and ground water in W. Virginia trespasses on the riparian rights of the people to clean water. The contamination of groundwater by pork farms in North Carolina is trespass for the same reason. These should not be regulated in his view, they should be stopped completely. Dr. Paul believes we all have a right to clean air and water. His mechanism for that is the we can sue AND WIN in the courts, not via regulations, which give polluters the right to pollute. He also supports hemp in its many uses, UNLIKE Senator Obama. For these reasons and many more, Ron Paul is the most environmentalist candidate still in the race.

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Alternative Energy is for the President, the rest...
Posted by: FRTN500CEO on Feb 22, 2008 9:46 AM   
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is up to the people. Determining the greenest candidate really shouldn't matter. If it did, people would know the difference between Bush's ranch and Gore's mansion.
Let the president boost our economy with alternative energy solutions, and lets you and me put in individual effort to make our country clean again.

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