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Environment

The Threat of Population Growth Pales Beside the Greed of the Rich

By George Monbiot, Comment Is Free. Posted January 31, 2008.


Some blame the poor for growing pressure on the world's resources, but the wealthy West takes the lion's share.
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I cannot avoid the subject any longer. Almost every day I receive a clutch of emails about it, asking the same question. A frightening new report has just pushed it up the political agenda: for the first time the World Food Program is struggling to find the supplies it needs for emergency famine relief. So why, like most environmentalists, won't I mention the p-word? According to its most vociferous proponents (Paul and Anne Ehrlich), population is "our number one environmental problem." But most greens will not discuss it.

Is this sensitivity or is it cowardice? Perhaps a bit of both. Population growth has always been politically charged, and always the fault of someone else. Seldom has the complaint been heard that "people like us are breeding too fast". For the prosperous clergyman Thomas Malthus, writing in 1798, the problem arose from the fecklessness of the laboring classes. Through the 19th and early 20th centuries, eugenicists warned that white people would be outbred. In rich nations in the 1970s the issue was over-emphasized, as it is the one environmental problem for which poor nations are largely to blame. But the question still needs to be answered. Is population really our number one environmental problem?

The Optimum Population Trust (OPT) cites some shocking figures, produced by the UN. They show that if the global population keeps growing at its current rate, it will reach 134 trillion by 2300. But this is plainly absurd: no one expects it to happen. In 2005, the UN estimated that the world's population will more or less stabilize in 2200 at 10 billion. But a paper published in Nature last week suggests that there is an 88 percent chance that global population growth will end during this century.

In other words, if we accept the UN's projection, the global population will grow by roughly 50 percent and then stop. This means it will become 50 percent harder to stop runaway climate change, 50 percent harder to feed the world, 50 percent harder to prevent the overuse of resources. But compare this rate of increase with the rate of economic growth.

Many economists predict that, occasional recessions notwithstanding, the global economy will grow by about 3 percent a year this century. Governments will do all they can to prove them right. A steady growth rate of 3 percent means a doubling of economic activity every 23 years. By 2100, in other words, global consumption will increase by about 1,600 percent. As the equations produced by Professor Roderick Smith of Imperial College have shown, this means that in the 21st century we will have used 16 times as many economic resources as human beings have consumed since we came down from the trees.

So economic growth this century could be 32 times as big an environmental issue as population growth. And if governments, banks and businesses have their way, it never stops. By 2115, the cumulative total rises to 3,200 percent, by 2138 to 6,400 percent. As resources are finite, this is of course impossible, but it is not hard to see that rising economic activity -- not human numbers -- is the immediate and overwhelming threat.

Those who emphasize the dangers of population growth maintain that times have changed: they are not concerned only with population growth in the poor world, but primarily with growth in the rich world, where people consume much more. The OPT maintains that the "global environmental impact of an inhabitant of Bangladesh … will increase by a factor of 16 if he or she emigrates to the USA." This is surely not quite true, as recent immigrants tend to be poorer than the native population, but the general point stands: population growth in the rich world, largely driven by immigration, is more environmentally damaging than an increase in population in the poor world. In the US and the UK, their ecological impact has become another stick with which immigrants can be beaten.

But growth rates in the US and UK are atypical; even the OPT concedes that by 2050 "the population of the most developed countries is expected to remain almost unchanged, at 1.2 billion." The population of the EU 25 (the first 25 nations to join the union) is likely to decline by 7 million.

This, I accept, is of little consolation to people in the UK, where the government now expects numbers to rise from 61 million to 77 million by 2050. Eighty per cent of the growth here, according to the OPT, is the direct or indirect result of immigration (recent arrivals tend to produce more children). Migrationwatch UK claims that migrants bear much of the responsibility for Britain's housing crisis. A graph on its website suggests that without them the rate of housebuilding in England between 1997 and 2004 would have exceeded new households by 20,000-40,000 a year.

Is this true? According to the Office for National Statistics, average net immigration to the UK between 1997 and 2004 was 153,000. Let us (generously) assume that 90 percent of these people settled in England, and that their household size corresponded to the average for 2004, of 2.3. This would mean that new immigrants formed 60,000 households a year. The Barker Review, commissioned by the Treasury, shows that in 2002, the nearest available year, 138,000 houses were built in England, while over the 10 years to 2000, average household formation was 196,000. This rough calculation suggests that Migrationwatch is exaggerating, but that immigration is still an important contributor to housing pressure. But even total population growth in England is responsible for only about 35 percent of the demand for homes. Most of the rest is the result of the diminishing size of households.

Surely there is one respect in which the growing human population constitutes the primary threat? The amount of food the world eats bears a direct relationship to the number of mouths. After years of glut, the storerooms are suddenly empty and grain prices are rocketing. How will another 3 billion be fed?

Even here, however, population growth is not the most immediate issue: another sector is expanding much faster. The UN's Food and Agriculture Organization expects that global meat production will double by 2050 - growing, in other words, at two and a half times the rate of human numbers. The supply of meat has already trebled since 1980: farm animals now take up 70 percent of all agricultural land and eat one third of the world's grain. In the rich nations we consume three times as much meat and four times as much milk per capita as the people of the poor world. While human population growth is one of the factors that could contribute to a global food deficit, it is not the most urgent.

None of this means that we should forget about it. Even if there were no environmental pressures caused by population growth, we should still support the measures required to tackle it: universal sex education, universal access to contraceptives, better schooling and opportunities for poor women. Stabilizing or even reducing the human population would ameliorate almost all environmental impacts. But to suggest, as many of my correspondents do, that population growth is largely responsible for the ecological crisis is to blame the poor for the excesses of the rich.

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See more stories tagged with: population, consumption

George Monbiot is the author Heat: How to Stop the Planet from Burning. Read more of his writings at Monbiot.com. This article originally appeared in the Guardian.

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Paternalism and biofuels
Posted by: El Hombre Malo on Jan 31, 2008 1:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is right on spot; while population controled growth is desirable, it has been often promoted as a panacea because it puts all the blame in the less favored, failing to adress the economical origins of bigger breeding rates in developing countries. Without the state-sponsored safenets we enjoy in developed countries (yes, even you americans), big families are the only way to sustain the elderly and ill, or the students during their extended dependency. Younger children benefit from the economic backing of their older brothers, enabling them to stay longer in school. Smaller birthrates in the first world are a consecuence of development, not its cause. Cutting the birthrate before development is a recipe for misery and distress, and a consecuence of a complacent paternalism; Why can't they be more like Us?

The article, though, does not adress a big reason in the food shortage; bio-fuel. The promotion of bio-diesel is making the prices skyrocket. Last year Mexico's guvermental enriched flour had to request special funding because the dramatic increase crippled its budget, I am sure UN food relief programs face similar problems.

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» RE: Paternalism and biofuels Posted by: VickyinSD
The World's Economy is Based on Debt Service ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Jan 31, 2008 1:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Indeed poor people use far fewer resources than do the "Developed Countries " But it doesn't stop there.

Nearly all of the world uses debt based fractional banking, which when you analyse it means that the world must go deeper and deeper into debt to service the existing debt and so on and so on, in short a debt spiral. Should the debt creation be stymied for any reason the world's money supply rapidly shrinks causing the economy to sputter and stall.

What this means in practical terms is that more and more resources must be consumed every year to market products to sell to pay for this increasing debt service. Without a contiuous increase in consumption the world soon goes broke due to lack of money to pay the ever increasing debt. It is a vicious cycle of ever increasing debt and ever increasing consumption.


The way this plays out in the third world is twofold. Poor countries must raise ever more hard currency to pay interest and principle on their loans. This means selling whatever the developed countries want or , second, engaging in near slave labor with their workforce to raise this hard money for these payments. They end up sellling their natural resources, usually below market value, leaving environmental and human degradation behind. People in these areas are forced to engage in this pillage or are forced off ancestral lands to the new emerging mega cities where they have no resources and again must scramble for hard currency to live, usually working menial jobs while their children scavenge garbage or beg. Long gone are the productive farm lands and forests that would provide for them.

So not only does the developed world consume more, it's banking and commercial system ravage developing nation's resources,exploit their people and coopt them into this cancerous form of money creation causing ever increasing debt, environmental and human damage.

The way to break this cycle of debt based money is to create money based on credit, that is non interest bearing money creation. In this way ever more debt isn't needed to sustain the economy, the money can be credited to the banks to lend on demand and will not be destroyed once the loan is paid. The world wouldn't need ever increasing debt for the economies to prosper, money creation could be allocated for the public good and not the conspicuous consumption that is ravaging our environment and enslaving all the worlds people to ever more debt to service.

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» Wow! I've never seen it put so clearly and so succinctly! Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
» RE: interest theres the rub Posted by: solrev
» A Fate Worse than Debt Posted by: amphibious
Parasites
Posted by: Cathyc on Jan 31, 2008 1:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who was it that said "The Rich need a constant supply of the Poor"?

Very, very few of the rich have actually earned their money.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Parasites Posted by: richholland
» Eat the rich... Posted by: thekidde
» RE: at the rich... Posted by: stevebonzai
» RE: Eat the rich... Posted by: VickyinSD
» RE: Parasites Posted by: VickyinSD
» RE: Parasites Posted by: Joshua Holland
It all comes back to population, population, population
Posted by: Bobsays on Jan 31, 2008 1:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Population is the root cause of every single major problem on the planet: population is the cause of poverty, population is the cause of environmental destruction and degradation, population causes wars and conflict, population is behind immigration chaos and over-crowding.

Environmentalists don't touch it with a barge pole because environmentalists get and need money from government to keep going. They know to raise this issue would burn their bridges and nuke the chance to go to an international conference. In short, environmentalists are highly compromised people and this goes a long to why they have failed to make any progress despite decades of campaigning and running expensive projects.

If we take Europe for example, population and Germany's desire for 'living room' caused WWII. Similar, mini battles over 'living room' are occuring across Africa and Asia. Europe's current security, prosperity and standard of living is being dragged down by population, as unfettered migration continues without check.

If you are serious about the environment, then you must eventually talk about population and the fact it is not desirable to allow the human population to keep growing and growing unchecked. There is a carrying capacity for the planet and for countries and regions.

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» RE: I did live in China - Posted by: fearn
» RE: I don't think so - - Posted by: fearn
population and greed
Posted by: richholland on Jan 31, 2008 3:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
visiting Thailand,Laos and Cambodia for more then 10 years I woder why in Europe and USA people are concerned about environment.
Even in the poor Laos and Cambodia people are pressed into motorcycles and 4 wheel drives and minibusses. Banks are giving easy loans on this.
So what is going on??
The old europe countries need an average of 2,2 kids per household, they only have 1,9 so immigration is wanted.
Let us face it for many years poor people or less educated people have more kids then educated ones.
Where is the politician who dares to say;
4 kids per family is desirable???(and more then enough)
However in future China, India, Asia will need more gasoline and meat (McDonald?)
I suppose worldwide honesty about this subject is wanted.
What are the ideas of Hillary and Obama about this??

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» RE: population and greed Posted by: TheLimit
» no countries need more meat Posted by: veggiegrrrl
population and greed
Posted by: richholland on Jan 31, 2008 3:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
visiting Thailand,Laos and Cambodia for more then 10 years I woder why in Europe and USA people are concerned about environment.
Even in the poor Laos and Cambodia people are pressed into motorcycles and 4 wheel drives and minibusses. Banks are giving easy loans on this.
So what is going on??
The old europe countries need an average of 2,2 kids per household, they only have 1,9 so immigration is wanted.
Let us face it for many years poor people or less educated people have more kids then educated ones.
Where is the politician who dares to say;
4 kids per family is desirable???(and more then enough)
However in future China, India, Asia will need more gasoline and meat (McDonald?)
I suppose worldwide honesty about this subject is wanted.
What are the ideas of Hillary and Obama about this??

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otto
Posted by: otto on Jan 31, 2008 4:21 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree completely; great article. It's always easier to blame others, especially the poor, than to look at our own faults and weaknessses.

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Worthy thesis, but --
Posted by: JPHickey on Jan 31, 2008 4:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, and it can't go on forever, either,though "rising economic activity – not human numbers – is the immediate and overwhelming threat."

"But to suggest, as many of my correspondents do, that population growth is largely responsible for the ecological crisis is to blame the poor for the excesses of the rich."

From personal observation, rich people don't really care, as "to the victor go the spoils". And the since a paradigm shift is unlikely, business-as-usual will continue until it crashes and burns. Are we there yet?

The U.S. is in suffering from the greatest gilded age even known. The wealthy people I know are neocon psychopaths, or as misguided as Marie "let them eat cake" Antoinette.

The status quo is being substantiated by the annointed ones here in the U.S. The consolidate media is so commercialized that creative and spiritual values are now totally out-of-the-picture.

Even with most AlterNet readers, any talking up of the simple life, the reawakening of our talents, or even the meaure of wealth in how we spend our time rather than materialistic greed, falls on deaf ears.

Only a crushing crash will hopefully bring us to our senses, and who knows, maybe this will be the year!

There is a higher definition of freedom than the just the common freedom of the so-called "free market".

The the most rewarding freedom is further up Maslow's pyramid where we may dwell in harmony with our hearts, enjoy just being alive, and yet live sustainably and expressively.

As far as I'm concerned in many ways, "the hippies had it right"! And at least Monbiot does get to first base.

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» RE: Worthy thesis, but -- Posted by: manatthewindow
» RE: Not quite right - - Posted by: TheLimit
» Eeek! I think you meant... Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Worthy thesis, but -- Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Worthy thesis, but -- Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: Worthy thesis, but -- Posted by: astralman
Why not a new approach to society and population?
Posted by: PerryBrass on Jan 31, 2008 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This piece really does not tell us a lot that is new, anyone can see that population is stretching resources. The terrible thing is that simply opening up family planning clinics won't curb population because so much of the world now in response to the tightening of a single, world-capitalist system is becoming more, not less, culturally conservative. So the old values that a man must have children to "carry on his family name," and even emancipated working women also need to be mothers is holding on. We need another approach to sexuality and population reduction.

We need to encourage extended group families, so that childless uncles and aunts are encouraged to stay that way and still contribute to larger family units financially and morally.

We need to extend tolerance of homosexual relationships, as the Dutch have done for much of the 20th century, since Holland is a small country with very limited resources and has worked to keep its population within control. Therefore the paranoia that the US and some other Western countries still have over homosexuality, labeling it subversive and "UnAmerican" has little sway in a small country.

In many ways, the US is becoming another smaller country, with the bigger majority of its population now cramped within 75 miles of either coast. So we need to see the value in other sexual/social/emotional units than single nuclear families. We also need to slow down the constant culture of competition and aggression in this country so that other values beside consumption rise, again, to the surface. As it is played now, anything outside of the national religion of consumption is entirely suspect, and even ridiculous sporting events, like the Superbowl, have become more about displays of wealth (with the $10,000 ticket) than anything that resembles sport.

We need to make the viability of animals in the wild a human priority; this idea was completely absent from Monbiets article. Humans should not be the only organisms left on earth: it would be impossible and unthinkable. But most population planners do not actively plan for how animals are affected by population.

I have written often about the relationship between culture and population, and know that population control is one of the oldest issues of the human race. Every ancient culture was aware that their limited food resources had to be spread around its population; the Egyptians started using birth control devices and practices almost as soon as they settled into cities, the Sumerians used them, the Greeks did. Only the ancient Hebrews, who were aggressively trying to control an area they were immigrating into, admonished their population to "be fruitful and mulitiply," with little thought of the outcome of it, which was continuous war.

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Nuts!!!
Posted by: craigandrew on Jan 31, 2008 6:22 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Greed is a very easy thing to understand, it just takes discipline... which we don't have. But, the fascism of the radical environmentalists is far more dangerous. Yes, it is true that there are problems that we need to confront, but population is not one of them. When humans begin to try and control human population we will end up with genocide. We should only concern ourselves with living our lives more efficiently and more environmentally friendly. Population control is a very dark and dangerous road.. just look at India and China.

And, furthermore, even the rich want fewer people, because there can be too many poor whose lives are so bad that they rise up against the rich... successfully. Here we see the radical environmentalists doing their bidding.

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» RE: adical Environmentalist!!! Posted by: craigandrew
» RE: adical Environmentalist!!! Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: adical Environmentalist!!! Posted by: craigandrew
» RE: adical Environmentalist!!! Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: adical Environmentalist!!! Posted by: craigandrew
The 800 lb Gorillas
Posted by: crazy carlos on Jan 31, 2008 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Noone wants to address the 800 lb gorillas, RELIGION, as a very large part of the problem--as in go forth and multiply. Until this issue is addressed head on the rest is nonsense. OUR MAJOR PROBLEM IS POPULLUTION.

Crazy Carlos

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» RE: The 800 lb Gorillas Posted by: TheNamelessCity
For example: energy use - fossil fuels or renewables?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jan 31, 2008 6:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Quote: "Stabilizing or even reducing the human population would ameliorate almost all environmental impacts."

Ah - no it would not. The U.S. for example, has 5% of the world's population and yet uses 25% of global petroleum supplies. If everyone wanted to use as much oil as we do in the U.S., and population did not grow at all, we would still need FIVE TIMES as much petroleum supply as exists to meet that demand.

We could easily use a lot less -and a 90% reduction on fossil fuel use is needed to head off global warming.

However, the people who control energy-linked cash flows and their political and media allies, because of simple greed, don't want to see fossil fuels replaced by renewable energy sources - wind, solar, and sustainable biofuels. They don't want to see industrial commodity agribusiness replaced by local organic agriculture, because they would lose control of land and money.

Both problems must be addressed - population size AND per capita resource use. We can use far less in the Wester industrialized nations, and still lead good lives - and we can export women's rights, education, clean technologies and access to birth control to the developing world.

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Either-Or
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Jan 31, 2008 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Much of this conversation seems to be based on the presumption that our environmental problems are either caused by overpopulation or they are caused by overconsumption. The fact is that both forces are at play.

The problem is that mankind has stretched the capacity of the earth to support it and sooner or later this system will break down. Scientists and even laymen are now seeing the signs of the ecosystem breaking down, so there is good reason to fear that we will face the consequences sooner rather than later.

We are familiar with smaller scale environments that are pushed beyond their capacity, what happens is that there eventually is a massive die-off, either from starvation or disease. Humans have added another possibility to this, war.

It really makes little difference whether we decide that there is over-population (making the poor take the blame) or whether we decide that there is over-consumption (making the rich take the blame). The fact is that both stretch the capacity of our one and only planet to continue supporting us. We need restraint in both areas.

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» RE: ither-Or Posted by: jallan
» RE: ither-Or Posted by: YogiBear
» RE:Hot button issue Posted by: TheLimit
De ja vu all over again
Posted by: drdanj on Jan 31, 2008 7:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thirty years ago a biology instructor led my undergrad class in a discussion of "Bedroom vs Boardroom:" or, too many people vs people using too much. And of course, by the end it deconstructed the foolishness of such either-or logic.

But here it is back again. If everyone lived with a "footprint = 1" we could have a lot more people on the planet. If 5% suck up "footprints = 25" we're doomed for environmental collapse.

Of course we need to do both, reduce our use, those of us who can read things like this, and work to stablize population growth to locally sustainable levels.

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Population Growth is bad for the poor
Posted by: janvdb on Jan 31, 2008 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We must consider the poor themselves. How can they become rich?

The rich have an interest in the poor becoming rich, even if it does put pressure on the environment; this is both a moral and a security imperative for us.

No one has any doubt whatsoever that the rich have fewer children. The question is: Does getting rich cause you to have fewer children or does having fewer children cause you to become rich?

Recent research, some at the Harvard School of Public Health by Prof Bloom, indicates the latter. This work has shown that China's path to prosperity also has worked, less obviously, elsewhere. Anyone knows that China put in place the harsh one-child policy and is now booming into "rich" status. Other examples: Bangladesh, which is far ahead of high-birth Pakistan, its sister nation, Brazil, Korea, most successful societies in East Asia, and south India, where birth rates are already near replacement.

And where is misery still the rule? Right where people continue to oppress and enslave women, leading to huge families, many of whom die in infancy, adn most of which are underfed, undereducated and, most importantly, when grown, UNDEREMPLOYED.

If the job creation cannot keep up with the rate of expansion of the labor force due to high birthrates, you get -- KENYA.

That kind of civil war is fed by unemployed youth. That kind of civil war destroys development and traps a nation in poverty. Investment flees, jobs are destroyed, misery, poverty and disease flourish. All these scourges are the result of violence, which is a result of large gangs of unemployed youth, which are a result of high birth rates, which are a result of the oppression and enslavement of women.

If women everywhere had the ability to chose the number of children they want to produce, they would chose to produce no more than they can feed, properly care for and properly educate. The numbers of young trying to enter the labor force would not swamp the economy.

The hoary idea that poor women WANT all those children -- TEST IT by giving them full access to birth control and let's just see what happens. HA! Why not?

Those who want all those children are the MEN who are oppressing and enslaving those women.

When birth control is made available and women don't use it, I'll believe the hoary old lie that poor women want all those children. Urban areas in Africa now, like Accra, Ghana, have already seen birth rates fall to 2.2.

Other Harvard School of Public Health research, by Prof Allan Hill, showed that in The Gambia, women surveyed said they wanted 4 children, but men wanted 15!!!

Now that's a gap that explains a lot.

The control of Third World population growth is not primarily about the environment, neither is it primarily about us, it is primarily about THEM. It is a necessary component of becoming rich. And the poor DO want to become prosperous, healthy and well-fed.

I do believe that the control of Third World populations would lead to those countries becoming rich, and, therefore, would, in fact, have a net BAD effect on the environment. This is just something we will have to deal with technologically, and a REDUCTION IN FIRST WORLD POPULATION is highly in order.

We need to reduce our consumption and REDUCE OUR NUMBERS to accommodate the rise to prosperity of the rest of the human race. Raw materials costs will be driven ever higher as trillions of the newly-rich (and, of course, recently smaller-familied) in China and India compete with us for access to stuff.

We need to learn to live with this and REDUCING OUR NUMBERS is one of the best ways to preserve our per-capita living standards as we come to share those with trillions of other humans.

Jan VanDenBerg

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» Your response is amazing! Posted by: Bobsays
What a Crock!
Posted by: dockboy on Jan 31, 2008 8:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one here honestly gives a damn about the third world. People, listen up. We live in a true global economy, and this is not going to change. Embrace it, don't fight it. The fact is, technological advancement and progress can no longer be limited to the western world. This will have a huge impact on the environment worldwide, western societies, and the lifestyle of everyone of us here.

You people speak out of both sides of your mouths. One moment you say, oh, the west is evil, corrupt, and greedy. bad on us, bad on us!. Then when issues arise of India, China, and Latin America getting jobs out-sourced to them, you scream outsourcing evil! outsourcing evil! Government, please protect us. You people are just as greedy as the big corporations and rich elite you claim to loathe.

You want to continue with your comfortable lifestyle of mediocrity, with little to no personal effort required. Having to compete with a growing technical population from third world countries scares the sh*t out of you. Yet, because you want to be "progressive" you have to claim compassion, and that you "care" about the peoples of the non-western world. Give me a break. Until you're honest with yourselves, you don't really want change. You run from it.

Okay, I'm done ranting.

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» RE: What a Crock! Posted by: manatthewindow
» RE: What a Crock! Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: What a Crock! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Hey dockboy Posted by: fearn
» RE: Hey dockboy Posted by: dockboy
» Fair enough, partly. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: What a Crock! Posted by: TheLimit
farming takes laborers
Posted by: luzmejor on Jan 31, 2008 8:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The developing areas of the world are still in transition from farming occupations to city living. Of course they have had no time to change their ways of coping with these dramatic differences in their environments. Farmers have always needed large families as free labor to support themselves.

Even in rural America we are still having trouble adjusting to all of these changes in the world economy.

Let's not forget that the poor in developing countries live on so little that they could not afford contraceptives, even if our phony "religious" and other leaders weren't on a constant and bitter campaign to keep them from access to any kind of contraception.

In spite of the fact that rural living conditions are so wretched, our hard-hearted rich are actively competing for the resources in every other part of the world. They will even do mass murder to get what they want.
We have the prize for wretched excess here.

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» You're exactly right Posted by: andabottleof_rum
It's both, stupid
Posted by: Sanglug on Jan 31, 2008 9:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apologies for some repetition here, but I can't agree enough with the previous posters who have observed that this is NOT an either/or proposition. Climate change and resource depletion are huge, daunting challenges that require changes and solutions on a multitude of different fronts. Reducing human numbers and reducing resource consumption are the broad fronts of action, and they are not mutually exclusive. Why make this difficult or needlessly combative? Yes, the footprint of a small degree of U.S. population growth is bigger than that of a large degree of African population growth, but growth in neither context should be encouraged. Likewise, resource-intensive consumption in both contexts must be discouraged. Period. Stop pitting these issues against each other.

BTW, dockboy, stand back for a moment and just look at your hate-filled, unconstructive posting. How can you think you're being part of the solution?

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» RE: It's both, stupid Posted by: dockboy
Deeper problems
Posted by: track5 on Jan 31, 2008 10:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
33% of the world's grain being fed to cattle is a bigger problem. And foreign aid to 3rd world countries going straight to governments while the powerless people never see a dime. Current economic policies and the powerlessness of the poor are a far greater cause of hunger and scarcity of resources than population growth.

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» So? Solve ALL the problems Posted by: janvdb
» RE: So? Solve ALL the problems Posted by: TheLimit
It's not control of the population we need
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Jan 31, 2008 10:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's control of the greedy. They are responsible for most of the ills that beset humankind. It's the gredy that have us in this war,so too with Vietnam,WW2,WW1, the Spanish/American War, the Civil War and all the Indian Wars. It's the greedy that came up with the idea of 'compound interest rates',bleeding money off the people they have no right to for doing nothing except own the bank. It's the greedy that gave us such lax environmental laws that,even if you're in perfect health,breathing the air and drinking the water will shorten you life. It's the greedy that keeps New Orleans from being rebuilt, Healthcare for everyone and the nation wide shutting down of centers for the homeless.Most of whom were made homeless by corrupted Savings and Loans operators back in the late 1980's. If you think this country isn't run by the greedy....ask an Indian. They will tell you,"The Thieves got away!'
Draft Jeffrey7 for Prez '08
www.youtube.com/RevJeffrey7

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The ultimate grossout
Posted by: willymack on Jan 31, 2008 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No need to worry about what can be done about the overpopulation of our world. Due to the aggregate stupidity and selfishness of mankind, NATURE will solve the problem nicely. After a large percentage of us perish because of wars, famine, and pestilence, some sort of equilibrium will be established until the whole sorry process begins anew.

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Both not either
Posted by: LRayn on Jan 31, 2008 10:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why does George Monbiot need an either/or battle? Clearly, I=PAT contains BOTH population and consumption. Continued exponential growth of either factor will catch up to us within a couple of decades.

I also don't like his assumption that population growth is all about blaming poor people. How about a discussion about the fact that each new baby born in a rich country will contribute an appalling amount of pollution and resource depletion during his/her lifetime? I apply the principles of overpopulation to myself and my friends, not to "others" somewhere else. (I have chosen not to have children).

Also, this is a great way to reframe the issue of reproductive choice in the United States. Pro-choice activists often have a distressingly narrow view of choice as an individual concern, not a collective necessity. So-called "pro-life" people don't seem to grasp the necessity for controlling human numbers. Environmental disaster due to overpopulation is NOT pro-life.

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» RE: Both not either Posted by: dockboy
Continuously increasing population CANNOT be good...
Posted by: olderworker on Jan 31, 2008 11:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a childless female (age 56, so I'm not going to have children in the future, either), I think it's important to realize that the resources of the earth are finite. Thus, fewer people means bigger slices of the pie for each of us.

And I don't drive an SUV, and I live with three roommates in a relatively small apartment, so I'm not a resources hog, myself.

I think more people should really consider NOT procreating, in order to prevent a steep decline in the standard of living; sorry, George Monbiot.

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Consumption and Population are Both Responsible for Problems We Face
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Jan 31, 2008 12:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If there were hardly any people then consuming a lot would not matter.

Conversely if there are 20 billion people but they all consume almost nothing then the high population wouldn't matter.

It is not a case of one being more responsible than the other.

What we need to do is have dialog on what is reasonable regarding the number of offspring we have and the amount of materials we consume.


Having more than 2 children is not sustainable. Consuming materials that are not renewable or faster than they can be renewed is not sustainable.

Both issues do need to be addressed though and overpopulation is rarely ever raised as a major factor for the problems we face except by individual commentators and posters on blogs and news articles.

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I agree . . .
Posted by: yesman on Jan 31, 2008 2:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
. . . with the basic thesis of this article. Excessive consumption of resources in developed countries is at least as big an environmental threat as overpopulation in undeveloped countries. However, given the severity of the situation we now face, we must change both situations, and I'm not sure it's worth too much time debating which problem is REALLY the most serious. They're both serious.

Reducing consumption in developed nations, however, will not be as simple as making a few "lifestyle changes"--that is, people doing some self-reflection and deciding to "live simply." That's not necessarily a bad thing, but as long as the US economy is driven by a "free market" capitalist ideology, we will continue to pillage and destroy the environment--as well as families, communities and our individual and collective health and sanity.

Also, I'm not sure why the author (and his sources) think the world's population will somehow magically "peak" at a certain point. The population certainly WILL peak--because of global plagues, epidemics, mass starvation and wars produced by severe overpopulation--but shouldn't we want (very much) to AVOID these kinds of involuntary population controls?

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» RE: i am pro choice and vegan Posted by: vasumurti
» can we meet? Posted by: vasumurti
» presume i am a woman in darfur Posted by: veggiegrrrl
dabu
Posted by: Dabu on Jan 31, 2008 2:19 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I give the article credit for mentioning the P word, which is about as blasphemous to liberals as the word "liberal" is to conservatives,

however,

it comes off as "bait n switch" to me, because it still can not be acknowledged by what any good ecologist (the study of everything involved), would argue is still the number one threat to the blue marble that gives us life, too many humans, a high-end, super-trophic organism, with very low productivity to it's environment and an unusually high consumption and territory factor. No such living entity in the history of the planet, has taken more from the biosphere and returned less, than the Homo sapiens do.

A heroin addict must be careful not to overdose, but they will still end up prematurely dead if they continue to shoot up "safely". But, of course, if we can get past the moment with our "high", then we need not be concerned about the future.

How many rats can you stuff into a cage?

Answer: less than the amount of food, clean bedding, water and the social acceptance limits.

before those limits they start killing each other.

But, we humans are much more smart, we would understand that there is room for more and not let our resource insecurities and our social unease let us hurt each other.

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» RE: dabu Posted by: HeroesAll
The Problem is burning COAL
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 31, 2008 3:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Downloaded FROM: Environmental Defense
http://environmentaldefenseblogs.org/
climate411/2008/01/14/global_winds/

This post is by James Wang, Ph.D., a climate scientist at Environmental Defense.

You may have heard about the persistent droughts in the western U.S., Australia,
and other regions. The Upper Colorado River Basin is experiencing a protracted,
multi-year drought that started in 1999. Australia's record drought is threatening
the livelihood of traditional farmers and ranchers.

At what point does a passing drought become a permanent shift to desert
conditions, and why would such a thing happen?

It can happen because of global warming. Climate change can alter global winds,
the strength and location of high and low pressure systems, and other climate
factors.

.........shortened.........Graphics and URLs omitted.

Global winds shape the Earth's climate, determining - in broad strokes - which
areas are tropical, desert, or temperate. Here's a simplified overview of how it
works.

The Sun heats the Earth most intensely in the tropical zone around the equator. The
heated air rises, cools, and then dumps its moisture as rain. That's why there are
rain forests in the tropics.

The now drier air is forced by the continuously rising equatorial air to move
towards the temperate latitudes on either side of the equator. At roughly 30° N and
S - called the "horse latitudes" - it can move no further due to the Earth’s rotation,
and settles to the surface. As the air sinks, it compresses and warms, creating hot,
rain-free conditions. This circulation pattern, called a Hadley cell, is why the
deserts of the world are located just poleward of the tropics, to the north and south.

Poleward of the desert belt, strong, high-altitude winds known as the jet streams
flow from west to east, carrying large storms with them. These mid-latitude,
temperate-region storms are an important source of rain and snow, especially
during the winter season. Much of the world's population lives in the temperate
region. It includes most of the U.S. and southern Canada, most of Europe, East
Asia, southern South America, southern Africa, and southern Australia and New
Zealand.

But climate regions aren't fixed. Several independent studies have found that
global winds are shifting due to global warming, and the shifts are faster than
predicted by climate models. Most recently is this new study in Nature
Geoscience. The tropical belt has widened by several degrees latitude since 1979.
This is consistent with other observations suggesting that the jet streams and storm
tracks have moved poleward.

The drought-stricken Upper Colorado River Basin, which includes Lake Powell, is
located just poleward of the horse latitudes at around 37° N. This has historically
been in the temperate zone, but the desert zone may be gradually encroaching upon
it. (Since nothing is simple, there are other factors contributing to this particular
drought, as well.) Similarly, water-starved Sydney, Australia at 34° S is just
poleward of the southern horse latitude.

What we may be seeing here is not so much drought as desertification - a shift in
global climate patterns due to global warming. Areas that used to be in temperate
zones may be shifting into desert, while areas that had been arid receive more
precipitation.

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» Its not looking good... Posted by: Cathyc
Of course the author doesn't mention the dreaded V word
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jan 31, 2008 4:36 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course the author doesn't mention the dreaded V word. Vegan is part of the solution.

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Carrying Capacity is a function of technology, a variable
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 31, 2008 9:10 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Carrying Capacity is the maximum number of people that the Earth can support,
but carrying capacity varies with technology, economic system, economic
distribution and culture. George Monbiot is correct in saying that the average
American uses a lot more stuff than most third worlders. He forgot to mention
that rich Americans use a lot more stuff than the average American. What is
irksome is average and poor Americans who believe themselves to be rich and vote
against themselves and the environment.

The carrying capacity of the Earth, given that everybody has only stone age
technology is very small, something like 70,000. The carrying capacity of the
Earth is more like 6.5 Billion, at least for a short time, given the way all those
variables are now. The time is short because we are using sources of energy that
are too primitive for our numbers. We are burning fossil fuels that cause global
warming. Global warming will put an end to our civilization and to our species
unless we either get our population in line with fossil fuel use by reducing our
numbers in a drastic way or increase our technology to match our numbers. In
other words, the choice is either kill almost everybody or convert to energy that
does not come from fossil fuels [is higher in technology] or reduce the wealth of
the rich [not including average Americans]. Fossil fuel burning is a primitive
technology and not a match for our present situation.

The choice is obvious. Convert coal fired power plants to nuclear and geothermal
AND tax the billionaires. Solar and wind are not steadily available and require
"spinning reserve", which is so inefficient that solar and wind can actually waste
energy. Biofuel takes food away from people at a time when desertification is
reducing the food supply. Nuclear and geothermal are at a higher technological
level than burning fossil fuels. Many people don't like nuclear for psychological
and irrational reasons, perhaps because those people are at the cultural level of
fossil fuel burning. So, George Monbiot, the task is not to reduce everybody's
income to no more than $20,000/year or reduce world population to 1 billion, but
to give every person on Earth a degree in engineering, science or math so that
everybody will agree to convert all coal fired power plants to nuclear. People who
persist in or insist on living in the stone age or any pre-21st century age are
diminishing the carrying capacity of the earth by being inefficient.

The total population of Homo Sapiens can be increased way beyond its present
level to, say, 100 billion if almost all of us are not on earth. The technological
level required to populate the whole solar system gives the solar system a much
larger carrying capacity than the earth alone. A Dyson Sphere is a sphere
completely surrounding the sun with a radius equal to the earth's orbit. A Dyson
sphere would enable us to capture all of the sun's energy, minus waste heat. A
Dyson sphere would enable a population growth beyond 100 billion. We don't
have either of those technologies yet. When and if we expand beyond one solar
system, we will find the resources for continued growth beyond the carrying
capacity of one star. The catch is that we have to insist that further growth not
take place on this one planet unless it is technological growth. Third world
countries need not replicate all of the steps that the first world went through to get
to the 21st century. Intermediate steps can and must be skipped by the third world
because the intermediate steps cause global warming.

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Human life and hell on earth
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Feb 1, 2008 7:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What educated aware persons would want to bring more humans onto this planet in the state it's in and in the direction it's moving? I don't want my (unborn) children to grow up in a world with increasing poverty,extinction of other species, ecocide of nature, crowded, violent cities...

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Not one commenter holds men responsible
Posted by: Shenonymous on Feb 1, 2008 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is absolutely right. But if we want to curb the world’s population, then we have to stop the astronomical rapes that contemptible and wretched bastard men do to victimize women. Other ways to curb the global population growth is to make sure those who oppose birth control are squelched (like the Catholic Church et al). For the most part, except for those who can afford artificial insemination, there is only one way to get pregnant and that is if a man has intercourse with a fertile female. Sex education needs to be taught to the men of the world as women are usually helpless against men who want to have sex with them. By law, men need to be made to wear condoms as well as women taking contraceptive drugs, and better schooling and job opportunities for men to keep them too busy to rape women. Want to stop the growth rate, stop the men from having intercourse with fertile females or make every fertile female wear a chastity belt. Given these solutions, the world’s population will take a stunning and dramatic drop.

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Recycle nuclear fuel
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 2, 2008 5:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We don't recycle nuclear fuel because spent fuel is valuable and people steal it.
The place it went that it wasn't supposed to go to is Israel. This happened in a
small town near Pittsburgh, PA circa 1970. A company called Numec was in the
business of reprocessing nuclear fuel. I almost took a job there, designing a
nuclear battery for a heart pacemaker. [A nuclear battery would have the
advantage of lasting many times as long as any other battery, eliminating many
surgeries to replace batteries.] Numec did NOT have a reactor. Numec "lost"
half a ton of enriched uranium. It wound up in Israel. The Israelis have fueled
both their nuclear power plants and their nuclear weapons by stealing nuclear
"waste." It could work for any other country, such as Iran or the United States.
It is only when you don't have access to nuclear "waste" that you have to do the
difficult process of enriching uranium, unless you have a Canadian "Candu"
reactor that runs on unenriched uranium.
Numec is no longer in business. The reprocessing of nuclear fuel in the US
stopped. That was the only politically possible solution at that time, given that
private corporations did the reprocessing. My solution would be to reprocess the
fuel at a Government Owned Government Operated [GOGO] facility. At a
GOGO plant, bureaucracy and the multiplicity of ethnicity and religion would
disable the transportation of uranium to Israel or to any unauthorized place.
Nothing heavier than a secret would get out.

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What didn't happen at Chernobyl
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 2, 2008 5:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
on Chernobyl: A friend of mine from Oak Ridge National Lab wrote to me: "The
reactor that had the accident at Chernobyl was very out-of-date (1st generation)
design that has to be precisely controlled to prevent cooling water from boiling.
Water carries away heat and moderates far better than bubbles, and as bubbles
form in water, the reactor goes increasingly unstable. What caused Chernobyl to
blow its top was residual water in the core suddenly going to high pressure steam
and erupting into a steam explosion. Since the building top was simply resting by
its weight on the walls, not a containment vessel at all, the steam explosion
burped the top off its position allowing outside air in, subsequently igniting a
carbon fire." The United States and other Western countries DO NOT now build
and do not now posses or operate ANY reactors of such primitive design. Nor do
we allow containment buildings to have easily removable tops. Containment
buildings in the Western hemisphere are required to be pressure vessels.
The Chernobyl accident released only 200 tons of radioactive material, as
much as a coal-fired power plant would release in 7 years and 5 months. The
Chernobyl accident had a shorter "stack" than coal-fired power plants. The
radioactive material was released in a short time at ground level. That is why the
Chernobyl accident had impact. Only 52 people died at Chernobyl , mostly fire
fighters, a hazardous job in any case. The Three Mile Island incident did NOT
release a noticeable amount of radiation into its neighborhood, it was just
expensive to clean up the inside of the reactor. Nobody died and nobody was
injured at Three Mile Island.

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Nuclear power plants are NOT like bombs at all
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 2, 2008 5:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why a Nuclear Powerplant CAN NOT Explode like a Nuclear Bomb:
Bombs are completely different from reactors. There is nothing similar about them
except that they both need fissile materials. But they need DIFFERENT fissile
materials and they use them very differently.
A nuclear bomb "compresses" pure or nearly pure fissile material into a small
space. The fissile material is either the uranium isotope 235 or plutonium. If it is
uranium, it is at least 90% uranium 235 and 10% or less uranium 238. The bomb
must compress the uranium or plutonium because a bomb has no moderator to
slow the neutrons down. These fissile materials are metals and very difficult to
compress. Because they are difficult to compress, a high explosive [high speed
explosive] is required to compress them. Pieces of the fissile material have to slam
into each other hard for the nuclear reactions to take place. In plutonium bombs,
the high speed explosive has to be precisely shaped and has to explode from all
sides simultaneously to make the bomb work. There is no way an accident could
get the explosive to explode correctly. In gun-type bombs, there must be a gun
barrel to direct one piece of uranium into the other piece of uranium at high speed
and with precise direction. There is nothing precise about an accident.
A nuclear reactor, such as the ones used for power generation, does not have any
PURE fissile material. The fuel may be 2% to 8% uranium 235 mixed with
uranium 238. A mixture of 2% to 8% uranium 235 mixed with uranium 238
cannot be made to explode in the nuclear way no matter how hard you try. A
small amount of plutonium mixed in with the uranium cannot change this.
Reactor fuel still cannot be made to explode like a nuclear bomb no matter how
hard you try. There has never been a nuclear explosion in a reactor and there
never will be. [Uranium and plutonium are flammable, but a fire isn't an
explosion.] The fuel in a reactor is further diluted by the moderator, which is
carbon at Chernobyl or water everywhere outside the Soviet Union. We use
water as the moderator because water can't burn. The fuel in a reactor is further
diluted by being divided and sealed into many small steel capsules. The fuel in a
reactor is further diluted by the need for coolant to flow around the capsules and
through the core so that heat can be transported to a place where heat energy can
be converted to electrical energy. A reactor does not contain any high speed
chemical explosive as a bomb must have. A reactor does not have any intentional
explosive materials at all.
As is obvious from the above descriptions, there is no possible way that a reactor
could ever explode like a nuclear bomb. Reactors and bombs are very different.
Reactors and bombs are really not even related to each other.
Reccomendation: Nuclear power is the safest kind and it just got safer. Convert
all coal-fired power plants to nuclear ASAP. See the December 2005 issue of
Scientific American article on a new type of nuclear reactor [unmoderated but even
safer] that consumes the nuclear "waste" as fuel.
To lower your electric rates: Convince your neighbors that nuclear power is the
safest and allow the nuclear power plants to lower safety to a reasonable level.
Nuclear power should be much cheaper than coal. See:
http://www.ornl.gov/ORNLReview
/rev26-34/text/coalmain.html
The average coal-fired power plant puts as much radiation into the environment in
about 7 years and 5 months as the Chernobyl accident did.

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Coal contains nuclear fuel
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 2, 2008 5:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Yucca Mountain is full of nuclear fuel that needs to be reprocessed. We used
to reprocess spent fuel rods until 1/2 ton of enriched uranium somehow wound up
in Israel.
2. Reference:
OUR NUCLEAR FUTURE:
THE PATH OF SELECTIVE IGNORANCE
by Alex Gabbard
Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Oak Ridge, TN
Selections from the 19th Annual Conference
SOUTHERN FUTURE SOCIETY
March 14,15,16, 1996
Nashville, Tennessee

Published by the
SOUTHERN FUTURE SOCIETY
1996
Edited by Jack D. Arters, Ed.D.
Conference Director
The truth is, all natural rocks contain most natural elements. Coal is a rock.
The average concentration of uranium in coal is 1 or 2 parts per million. Illinois
coal contains up to 103 parts per million uranium. A 1000 million watt coal
fired power plant burns 4 million tons of coal each year. If you multiply 4
million tons by 1 part per million, you get 4 tons of uranium. Most of that is
U238. About .7% is U235. 4 tons = 8000 pounds. 8000 pounds times .7% =
56 pounds of U235. An average 1 billion watt coal fired power plant puts out 56
to 112 pounds of U235 every year. There are only 2 places the uranium can go:
Up the stack or into the cinders.
Since a reactor full fuel load is around 11 tons of 2% U235 and 98% U238, and
one load lasts about 10 years, and what one coal fired power plant puts into the
air and cinders fully fuels a nuclear power plant.
Compare 4 Million tons per year with 1.1 tons per year. 1.1 divided by 4 Million
= 2.75 E -7 = .000000275 =.0000275%. Remember that only 2% of that is
U235. The nuclear power plant needs ~44 pounds of U235 per year. The coal
fired power plant burns coal by the trainload. The nuclear power plant consumes
U235 in such small quantities yearly that you could carry that much weight in a
briefcase.
3. See the rest of Alex Gabbard's article. U238 can be bred into Plutonium and
Thorium can be bred into Uranium. We can fuel our nuclear power plants for
CENTURIES just by extracting uranium and thorium from coal cinders and
smoke.
4. See: http://www.ornl.gov/
ORNLReview/rev
26-34/text/coalmain.html

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What will you die of?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 2, 2008 5:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Odds of Dying from X according to the 2003 National Safety council

1 heart disease 1 in 5
2 cancer 1 in 7
3 stroke 1 in 24
4 motor vehicle accident 1 in 84
5 suicide 1 in 119
6 falling 1 in 218
7 firearm assault 1 in 314
8 pedestrian accident 1 in 626
9 drowning 1 in 1008
10 motorcycle accident 1 in 1020
11 fire or smoke 1 in 1113
12 bicycle accident 1 in 4919
13 air/space accident 1 in 5051
14 accidental firearm 1 in 5134
15 accidental electrocution 1 in 9969
16 alcohol poisoning 1 in 10048
17 hot weather 1 in 13729
18 hornet, wasp or bee sting 1 in 56789
19 legal execution 1 in 62468
20 lightning 1 in 79746
21 earthquake 1 in 117127
22 flood 1 in 144156
23 fireworks 1 in 340733

Causes that are missing from the above:
nuclear power plant accident
medical mistake
meteor impact
cold weather
starvation
dehydration
smallpox
war
terrorist strike
boredom

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» RE: What will you die of? Posted by: Shenonymous
Meltdowns no longer possible
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 2, 2008 6:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are two types of 21st century reactors that cannot melt down no matter how
badly they are treated. Safety is guaranteed by laws of physics.
In the pebble bed reactors, stopping coolant flow removes the space between
fuel pellets. The space between fuel pellets must be filled with moving water.
The water is the moderator to slow down the neutrons so that the reaction can take
place. No coolant flow, no reaction. These pebble bed reactors will never
experience a meltdown. It just can't happen because of laws of nature. The US
has 2 pebble bed reactors.
In the recommended and newly invented helium cooled reactor, the core is
made of high temperature [refractory] materials that simply will not melt if coolant
flow ceases. The core is cooled from a higher temperature by heating the
containment building, which also does not melt. The containment building heats
its surroundings in the case of coolant flow loss. The helium cooled reactor uses
helium as the working fluid to turn a turbine. Helium gas is the ideal fluid to turn
a turbine because it can be made very pure so that the turbine blades will last a
very long time.
Safety is assured in all US built reactors by the containment building, which is a
pressure vessel and which, as in the case of the now obsolete 3 mile island reactor,
can and did contain the overheated core. There were ZERO casualties.

American reactors are now too safe. Nuclear power is overpriced because of the
excessive safety. 20,000 to 30,000 Americans die each year because of those
poisons I listed below that come out of coal fired power plants. It is C O A L fired
power plants that kill 20,000 to 30,000 Americans each year. Nuclear power
plants kill ZERO Americans each year. It is COAL burning that will make us go
extinct in about 200 years if we keep doing it.

The problem is that we OVERSHOT on safety design because of people who
protest nuclear power. American reactors are TOO safe. It is C O A L fired
power plants that give you 100 times as much radiation. Coal is almost pure
carbon, except for the URANIUM, ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY, Antimony,
Cobalt, Nickel, Copper, Selenium, Barium, Fluorine, Silver, Beryllium, Iron,
Sulfur, Boron, Titanium, Cadmium, Magnesium, Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium,
Chlorine, Aluminum, Chromium, Molybdenum and Zinc that are coal's impurities.
We could fuel our nuclear plants from the uranium and thorium in the smoke and
cinders from coal fired power plants. Coal cinders are an economically viable ore
for several of the listed impurities.

French reactors use American technology that is about 3 decades old.

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Why terrorists can't rob radioactive materials from nuclear reactors
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 2, 2008 6:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Suppose a gang of terrorists tries to do a bank robbery type of
operation against a nuclear reactor. What problems do they
encounter that they wouldn't when robbing a bank?
1. There is no nuclear fuel within reach of any human.
2. The fuel is inside a containment building that is harder to
penetrate than a bank vault.
3. The fuel is inside a machine that was not made for human
access. Fuel isn't something in a fuel tank that the reactor takes
some of each minute. The fuel is an internal component of the
engine. Stealing fuel is more like stealing a piston out of an
engine than siphoning gasoline out of a gas tank. The robbers
would be like somebody trying to steal a piston out of an engine in
a busy Wal-Mart parking lot, not like somebody trying to steal a
cell phone out of an unlocked car in a dark alley. Fuel is removed
and replaced in a reactor at most once a year and often only once
every 10 years. Reactors could be built to be fueled once in the
reactor's lifetime. NASA's SNaPP reactors are fueled only once.
For example, the power sources on the Voyager spacecraft that
are now exiting the solar system have the same nuclear fuel they
had 30 years ago when they were launched. The Voyagers still
have power. Fuel that is removed from a reactor can be recycled
and put back into a reactor. The volume of the fuel doesn't
change as it is used.
4. The fuel is not like money in several ways:
a. The fuel is radioactive enough to kill the robbers immediately.
b. The fuel is far too heavy for the robbers to carry.
c. The fuel is sealed in steel capsules inside steel rods inside the
reactor core inside a coolant system, etc.
d. the temperature of the fuel is more than hot enough to burn
them.
e. If they got the fuel out, they would have to carry it in lead
containers that would weigh many tons.
f. etc.

To get fuel out, the reactor must first be shut down. The reactor
must be allowed to cool. Cooling takes time, much too long for a
bank heist. The fuel can only be removed by a robot. The robot
may not be present. The robbers don't have a way to move fuel
rods out of the containment building. The robbers would have to
have a big truck with a lead container to carry the fuel in. Big
trucks are not good getaway vehicles, especially when heavily
loaded.
IF the robbers knew how to do all of the required jobs, it would
still take them weeks to rob a reactor. Don't you think somebody
would notice when the people who work at the reactor didn't
come home for a few weeks? Do you think the cops and the
army are going to give the robbers weeks? The result of such an
attempted robbery would be robbers killed by bullets. Guards are
not needed. Fences are not needed. Guards and fences are there
purely because paranoid people want them there. Do not be like
a person who wears an aluminum foil hat to keep the government
from reading his or her thoughts. The government can't read
thoughts anyway, and terrorists can't steal fuel out of a nuclear
reactor.

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Natural Background radiation
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 2, 2008 6:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation

Background radiation is the ionizing radiation from several natural radiation
sources: sources in the Earth and from those sources that are incorporated in our
food and water, which are incorporated in our body, and in building materials and
other products that incorporate those radioactive sources; radiation sources from
space (in the form of cosmic rays); and sources in the atmosphere which primarily
come from both the radon gas that is released from the earth's surface and
subsequently decays to radioactive atoms that become attached to airborne dust
and particulates, and the production of radioactive atoms from the bombardment
of atoms in the upper atmosphere by high-energy cosmic rays. Since 1945 it also
comes from low levels of global radioactive contamination due to nuclear testing.

............shortened.............

Natural background radiation

Natural background radiation comes from three primary sources: cosmic radiation,
terrestrial sources, and radon. The worldwide average background dose for a
human being is about 2.4 mSv per year. This exposure is mostly from cosmic
radiation and natural isotopes in the Earth.

Cosmic radiation

The Earth, and all living things on it, are constantly bombarded by radiation from
outside our solar system of positively charged ions from protons to iron nuclei.
This radiation interacts in the atmosphere to create secondary radiation that rains
down, including X-rays, muons, protons, alpha particles, pions, electrons, and
neutrons. The dose from cosmic radiation is largely from muons, neutrons, and
electrons.

The dose rate from cosmic radiation varies in different parts of the world based
largely on the geomagnetic field and altitude.

Terrestrial sources

Radioactive material is found throughout nature. It occurs naturally in the soil,
rocks, water, air, and vegetation. The major radionuclides of concern for terrestrial
radiation are potassium, uranium and thorium. Each of these sources has been
decreasing in activity since the birth of the Earth so that our present dose from
potassium-40 is about 1⁄2 what it would have been at the dawn of life on Earth.
Some of the elements that make up the human body have radioactive isotopes,
such as potassium-40, so there is also a very small amount of internal radiation.

Radon

Radon gas seeps out of uranium-containing soils found across most of the world
and may concentrate in well-sealed homes. It is often the single largest contributor
to an individual's background radiation dose and is certainly the most variable in
the United States. Many areas of the world, including Cornwall and Aberdeenshire
in the United Kingdom have high enough natural radiation levels that nuclear
licensed sites cannot be built there—the sites would already exceed legal radiation
limits before they opened, and the natural topsoil and rock would all have to be
disposed of as low-level nuclear waste.

............shortened.............

The exposure for an average person is about 360 millirems/year, 80 percent of
which comes from natural sources of radiation. The remaining 20 percent results
from exposure to artificial radiation sources, such as medical X-rays and a small
fraction from nuclear weapons tests.

............shortened.............

Reference:
http://www.unscear.org/unscear/en/publications/2000_1.html

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Superconductors are required for wind power
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 2, 2008 7:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wind energy requires that Direct Current [DC] be transmitted
over enormous areas [more than one continent] to provide
continuous power because wind varies from minute to minute.
Direct current is required because the voltage and frequency of
AC would change minute by minute with wind speed. Long
distance DC transmission requires superconducting cable. DC
just doesn't go far otherwise.
Reference:
http://www.terrawatts.com: Liquid nitrogen is still required.
http://www.alternet.org/environment/69888

Following the http://www.terrawatts.com lead, you arrive at the
statement that the "high temperature" superconductor will be
cooled by liquid nitrogen. See:
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?
ArticleID=942#_When_will_HTS
The need for liquid nitrogen is the achilles heal of this scheme. It
isn't really a "room" temperature superconductor. Any accidental
warming brings the grid to a halt. Energy is required to make
liquid nitrogen. Dry nitrogen must be cooled to 77 degrees
Kelvin to make it a liquid. The cable has to be thermally
insulated and cooled its entire length. The cable also must be
physically separated into "out" and "return" wires, and the force
between the 2 wires will be large. As stated in the article, it won't
be cheap.

Any warming above the superconducting temperature or too much
magnetic field will cause the cable to quit superconducting at that
point. The cable will instantly melt, creating an electric arc. All
of the energy that was flowing through that spot will instead be
dumped there, creating an explosion. The power grid will be
disabled for some time since repairing a superconducting cable is
not as easy as splicing a wire. Is this the kind of electric service
you really want? We really don't have the technology yet.

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People Everywhere!
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Feb 2, 2008 10:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. A major problem ignored by both the authors and the posters here is that humans are so grossly overpopulated that we cover the entire planet, including areas like Antarctica that humans cannot even reach by natural means. We need to leave space for other species, and the only way to do that is to greatly reduce out population. This is a GLOBAL problem and is not limited to rich or poor countries; even the U.S. is grossly overpopulated, though obviously not as much as China, India, or Indonesia.

Consider this: in order to be healthy, ecosystems need AT LEAST 50,000 acres of wilderness. Humans could only live in these areas as pre-industrial hunter-gatherers, otherwise they would destroy their ecological value as wilderness. There can be no roads or any other unnatural human objects or mechanisms. Additionally, ecosystems also need wildlife corridors between the wilderness areas in order, among other things, to prevent inbreeding. And in order for the planet as a whole to be ecologically healthy, we need sufficient amounts of wilderness in every type of ecosystem and micro-ecosystem.

Now, all of you who claim overpopulation is not a problem, explain how we can have all that untouched land without greatly reducing human population everywhere. Or if you advocate returning to lives as pre-industrial hunter-gatherers, how we could possibly have enough land and food to eat without doing so.

2. Overpopulation IS overconsumption, by definition. If there are too many humans, humans as a species overconsume, even if none of them do so individually.

3. As some posters have said, this is not an either/or problem, it's both. Unfortunately, most so-called environmentalists are more pro-left than pro-environment, so they refuse to recognize overpopulation. But anyone who really wants to fight for the most disenfranchised and downtrodden should not be fighting for social causes, but for harms to all of the non-humans on the Earth. It's the non-human animals, the plants, the air, land, and water that are suffering most. Humans as a whole are thriving.

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» RE: People Everywhere! Posted by: TheLimit
» Another Anti-Environmentalist Troll Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (funny!)
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Feb 2, 2008 10:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.vhemt.org

here's a really funny page:

http://www.vhemt.org/biobreed.htm#babies

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Cash for voluntary sterilizations for anyone who want it!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Feb 3, 2008 9:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There should be a global fund for population stabilization that included something like a 10k cash incentive for voluntary sterilizations. Any male or female who chooses voluntarily to snip snip can get 10k.

I snipped in 1981 for $10.00 at Planned Parenthood. I'm 45 now and absolutely no regrets.

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» typo correction Posted by: veggiegrrrl
RE2: So who are you going to exterminate to make the right population?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Feb 3, 2008 9:41 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First and foremost, leaving vast areas of land and water untouched by modern
society is a bad idea. I'm going to fight against you on that. You just want to
steal housing from the poor people. We CAN build houses in the woods and leave
almost all of the trees there. The wolves we don't need. Polar bears are already
doomed by global warming.

Second, If you want to commit genetic suicide, that is fine with me, but you can't
get many other people to do it without coercion. China's one child policy had a lot
of coercion in it. Forced genetic suicide is EXACTLY THE SAME as
extermination. You imply genocide when you advocate genetic suicide.
Therefore, who do you plan to exterminate?

Third, ALL choices of who to exterminate are at least a little arbitrary. The
survivors will spread out to the rest of the planet from wherever they are. And the
US is NOT over populated.

Finally, humans leaving the Earth is NOT pure fantasy. It is perfectly possible
and WILL BE DONE if we survive another century. I am an engineer working on
it. See: www.liftport.com. We are working on the Space Elevator. We Will
build space elevators and we Will colonize other worlds whether you like it or not.
Human colonization would be BEAUTIFUL for the rest of the galaxy. Humans
have made Earth better. The Dinosaurs ruined the earth. The dinosaurs hunted
almost all of the proto-mammals to extinction. They left only the mouse sized
proto-mammals, the ones too small for dinosaurs to bother with.

Jeff Hoffman, if you hate being human so much, that is your problem. What
would you rather be? Suicide is the fifth most popular cause of death in the US.
Your suicide won't alter the statistics. The rest of us don't have to suffer your
depressive illness. Environmentalism doesn't have to be negative either.

Humans are the best organisms ever, and in the future we will evolve into truly
intelligent creatures. We will re-design our bodies so that back aches, arthritis and
many other ills never happen. Life is the meaning of life and no other meaning is
needed. I have no "spiritual" malaise. We will, by the end of this century, extend
human life expectancy past 1000 years, colonize the moon, Mars and near-earth
asteroids, and possibly create a universe. Mars will turn from red to green. Gaia
is the name of all the DNA on earth. Earth/Gaia NEEDS humans to spread earth
life across the galaxy. Humans are the sex organ of Gaia. Only humans can
transplant earth life to other planets and we MUST do so. Humans are also the
soldiers of Gaia. We are the only species that can protect Mother Earth from giant
asteroid and comet impacts. We MUST colonize space in a big way to carry out
this function. We are failing our duty to protect Mother Earth if we don't. It is
time to have a positive can do attitude. We can save the earth and our species and
become wealthy in the process. Colonizing the rest of the solar system will
expand wealth beyond anything imagined so far. We may NEED 7 billion people
in order to make the leap into space. Fewer people might not ever do it, or do it
much too slowly. Depressed people will never do it. Let's get out there and save
the earth from global warming by building nuclear power!

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I See a world countroled By Money and power even the legal System is set up For the rich .
Posted by: futurevisionariescom on Feb 6, 2008 2:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for your invite . I feel alone media wont even Help..
Its hard for people to see ..
How a Word FUTURE can help all . FUTURE is like a pend country Built On people and their
ideas There Global FUTURE voice .
Search www.uspto.gov trademarks serial No 76133905 word FUTURE ; www.patent.gov.uk
Word mark FUTURE O/Ref 2290533 PA1/MLEWI European Community Trade Mark
application NO;003886983 FUTURE Stylized word +device In Class
3,9,12,35,37,41,42,43,44,Oposer in europe is Fokker servcies BV They only want YA every
good every service globaly for air craft
Word FUTURE . They aply after me in USA . They atack me in europe , Im broke here i am
Fighting these battles .. and my former lawyer of DC Words can fight ..; I need partners
money has always held me back now im fighting Fraud set up .. agreement spet 2004 .



Company/Organization:
Futurevisionaries.com
Career Skills:
www.futurevisionaries.com
CURRENT OWNER INFORMATION PARTY TYPE 10-ORIGINAL APPLICANT NAME ANDERSON,
KENT G ADDRESS 925 N GRIFFIN BISMARCH, ND 58501 ENTITY 01-INDIVIDUAL
CITIZENSHIP United States of America
Seial NO 76634950
Word Mark FUTURE

GOODS AND SERVICES INTERNATIONAL CLASS 003 DESCRIPTION TEXT Cosmetics
INTERNATIONAL CLASS 035 DESCRIPTION TEXT Retail automotive vehicle parts and
accessories stores; automobile dealerships; retail grocery stores; modeling agencies;
advertising and marketing services; retail variety stores; retail stores featuring electronic
inventions; retail toy stores; retail clothing stores; retail specialty stores featuring
electronics technology, toys and electronic inventions; retail office supply stores; retail
furniture stores; retail appliance stores; retail music and video stores; retail personal safety
device stores; retail sporting goods stores; retail hobby craft stores; retail convenience
stores; advertising agencies; retail jewelry stores; retail home improvement stores; retail
medical supply stores; online retail store services featuring electronics, toys, music,
furniture, jewelry, automobiles, aircraft, watercraft and space craft; retail store services
featuring a wide variety of consumer goods of others; entertainment marketing services,
namely, marketing, advertising and promotion services for artists and live performers;
promoting of artists and celebrities; promoting and marketing services for museums,
musical bands and theme parks; retail store services featuring convenience items and
gasoline; supermarkets; retail gift shops featuring novelties; wholesale and retail stores
featuring clothing, consumer electronics, toys, specialty electronics goods, furniture and
pets; retail discount stores in the field of consumer electronics inventions, food and general
merchandise; retail department stores; retail stores featuring computers and robots
INTERNATIONAL CLASS 036 DESCRIPTION TEXT Financial consulting services; financial
services, namely, venture capital funding services to emerging and start-up companies;
financial planning and investment advisory services; financial forecasting; banking services;
on-line banking services; leasing of shopping mall space INTERNATIONAL CLASS 041
DESCRIPTION TEXT Amusement parks; providing water park services and theme park
services; museums; libraries; educating at university or colleges; education services in the
nature of courses at the university level; education services, namely, providing classes,
seminars and workshops in the fields of medicine, economics, law, business, the Internet,
history, the arts and science; retail business training; amusement arcades; movie theaters;

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