COMMENTS: 106
The Problem with Christmas
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If you poll Americans this time of year, far more of them regard the approaching holidays with dread than anticipation. It has long since become too busy, too expensive, too centered around acquiring that which we do not need. In fact, it's the perfect crystallization of the American economy -- the American consumer experience squeezed into a manic week, a week that people find themselves hoping will soon end so that on Jan. 2 they can return to the mere routine hecticity of their lives.
From that central truth, a few propositions follow:
- Replacing regular stuff with green stuff isn't getting very close to the root of the problem. If for some reason you need to give someone a motorized spice rack, then a motorized spice rack with a more efficient motor is quite clearly better. But it's also quite clearly beside the point.
- Stuff itself is a problem less because of its environmental toll (though that is quite high) than because it's increasingly meaningless. Think of your friends. Are many of them lacking in stuff? Or is the first question that forms in their minds when a new gift arrives from under the tree: "Where am I going to put this?"
- But this pleasure gap allows for a concentrated opportunity to begin rethinking our economic life. If stuff isn't valuable anymore, what is? Time, clearly. A gift of time -- a coupon for a back rub, or a trip to the museum, or a dinner prepared someday in the future -- is a gift whose exchange rate is figured in a stronger currency (if you're an economics major, think euros vs. dollars). Or gifts can come embedded with time already spent: a jar of homemade jam, a stack of firewood in the back yard.
- Gifts can also be reconfigured to remove some of the hyperindividualism that marks our consumer society. Ask yourself what you'd rather receive: another thing, or a homemade card saying that, say, a cow had been purchased in your name and was now providing milk for a Tanzanian family that hadn't had milk before. (Note: this line of reasoning is probably especially strong for those of us who are Christians, and recall that the occasion we're celebrating is the birth of a man who said to give all that we had to the poor.)
- Since Christmas has long been in the business of baptizing consumption, it's a good place to start eroding consumption's allure. Newfound pleasures from a simpler holiday -- some silence, some companionship -- suddenly start to seem attractive. Maybe that attraction will remain with us even unto February.
That would be good, because our environmental problem, at root, isn't that the stuff we're buying uses too much energy or too much plastic, or that its paint has lead in it, or that it's been shipped too far. Our environmental problem is that we consume way too much because we've agreed to try and meet basic human needs -- status, respect, affection -- with material ends. And no time more so than at Christmas, when Santa rides in on a Norelco razor. It's a kind of joint conspiracy that few of us dare break out of, even though we all understand at some level that it's not working. What if you don't give your kids a "proper Christmas"?
But the second you do break out of it -- the second your family becomes one of those that exchanges used books at Christmas, or decides to follow St. Francis' Yule tradition of wandering the park and throwing seed so that the birds too could celebrate, or makes it an annual custom to serve turkey dinner at the homeless shelter -- then you start sharing in the deep human secret that consumer society is set up to obscure: the things that please us most are almost always counterintuitive. We need to be out in the cold air, we need to think about others, we need to serve.
There are, of course, some who will say that a course like the one I'm describing here will damage the economy -- that anyone who proposes a different Yuletide is a "grinch." (This, by the way, is a major literary faux pas. Close reading -- even cursory reading, or even viewing the annual television special, will remind one that it was in fact the grinch himself who believed that Christmas came in a box. He turned out to be wrong, as the Whos of Whoville, those communists, made clear.) You could answer those people by saying, "Well, it won't all happen at once, and the economy will have time to adjust." Or you could answer by saying, "Maybe you're right. And maybe the economy isn't therefore quite as rational and as obvious as we would like to believe, if in fact it depends on a corrupted celebration of Jesus' birth to stagger on for another year."
The second answer appeals to me. We need a kiss to break our enchantment, and a kiss (a coupon for a kiss! Or a dozen!) is a perfectly fine gift to give for Christmas.
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Dec 4, 2007 12:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1- Forgive someone you have a longstanding grudge or problem with.
2- Become a friend to someone who has few friends.
3- Visit a shut-in or shut-out. Someone alone, in the hospital, in prison, a street person, on the margins.
4- Meet an unmet need of someone privately or anonymously.
5- Feed someone who is hungry.
6- Clothe someone who is needy.
7- Extend grace to someone who has wronged you.
8- Be a peacemaker between people in strife.
9- Love someone who is hard to love.
10- Try to not be judgmental.
Grace, Mercy and Peace. Seek these 3 earnestly and the rest will follow. The best part is that it cannot be bought at any price.
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» Yes
Posted by: Tom Degan
» and all that is so much harder...
Posted by: deborama
» RE: Christ IS NOT In The Holiday Christmas
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Christ IS NOT In The Holiday Christmas
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Christ IS NOT In The Holiday Christmas
Posted by: jbur816
» RE: Christ IS NOT In The Holiday Christmas
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Christ IS NOT In The Holiday Christmas
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Doesn't the Bible mention gold, frankincense & myrrh?
Posted by: war_on_tara
» Sure, if you're Jesus!
Posted by: PaulK
» RE: Doesn't the Bible mention gold, frankincense & myrrh?
Posted by: lepidopteryx
» RE: Christ IS NOT In The Holiday Christmas
Posted by: otto
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Dec 4, 2007 2:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It's the Hypocrisy
Posted by: Tom Degan
» Not applicable to the churchgoing folk I know. They all want wars to stop ...
Posted by: SayBlade
» RE: Not applicable to the churchgoing folk I know. They all want wars to stop ...
Posted by: Knot_Rich
» RE: Not applicable to the churchgoing folk I know. They all want wars to stop ...
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Dec 4, 2007 2:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you insist on buyuing your children a DVD, please pick up the original animated Grinch program (beautifully narrated by Boris Karloff) or - BETTER STILL - A Charlie Brown Christmas. While everyone around him is going through the meaningless motions expected of everyone this time of year, Charlie is desperately thying to find the true meaning of Christmas. A wonderful program.
I won't be going anywhere near a mall this Holiday season. I won't be buying any gifts for anyone. I won't be doing Christmas; I'll be observing it. The only celebrating we should be doing is the celebration of the birth of the Prince of Peace. That's good for starters, ay?
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
In The Grip of Ronniemania
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» RE: Hark, The Herald....
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Hark, The Herald....
Posted by: madaha
» RE: Hark, The Herald....CORRECTION
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Hark, The Herald....
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Hark, The Herald....
Posted by: athurlow
» RE: Hark, The Herald....
Posted by: gregs765
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Posted by: war_on_tara on Dec 4, 2007 3:42 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems exactly as if you want to shut down the retail sector entirely in the season where it makes 40% of sales, drive millions of people out of work, and cause another Great Depression.
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» yes we need much less retail
Posted by: deborama
» Notice all the ads on this site?
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Notice all the ads on this site?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» thanks, Anna!
Posted by: war_on_tara
» So how does this benefit society?
Posted by: sliver
» RE: So how does this benefit society?
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: So how does this benefit society?
Posted by: RickHarlan
» You Could Say
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: So how does this benefit society? tara
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: yes we need much less retail
Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: Let's shut down the retail sector & cause another depression
Posted by: Marleygem
» RE:What about this
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Let's shut down the retail sector & cause another depression
Posted by: Knot_Rich
» RE: Let's shut down the retail sector & cause another depression
Posted by: AcidQueen
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Posted by: overseas on Dec 4, 2007 4:53 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Xmas in the third world
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: war_on_tara on Dec 4, 2007 5:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't consider myself a complete Grinch, but I must be in the middle someplace. I'm no longer a Christian and, at any rate, don't look to someone like Bill McKibben for religious advice.
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» RE: Ugh. Sentimental nonsense.
Posted by: jumperladd
» Christmas IS nice, & I like your attitude!
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Christmas IS nice, & I like your attitude!
Posted by: jbur816
» RE: Christmas IS nice, & I like your attitude!
Posted by: war_on_tara
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Posted by: cristina_c79 on Dec 4, 2007 5:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» the Puritans banned Christmas, & Adventists still do
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Why mainly Christians?
Posted by: sophiej
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 4, 2007 6:04 AM
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» RE: The overcommercialization of "Christmas" is no different from our yearly "elections".
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: The overcommercialization of "Christmas" is no different from our yearly "elections".
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: The overcommercialization of "Christmas" is no different from our yearly "elections".
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: JOHN L. on Dec 4, 2007 6:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is purely a man-made non-event, as is all "BELIEF" in ficticious entities and events.
For those who need to take it further (why?)...in the book/'bible', jesus said "Celibrate my death (easter), not my birth (christmas)."
More: His 'birth' was not in december, according to all research.
All is irrelevant however, as no one has ever demonstrated any evidence of a diety, no man in the sky, etc, etc...
You "god" is claimed to be All powerfull, the creator of everything, all seeing, all aware, etc, etc...yet TOTALLY irresponsible for any and all misery.
IF there was such, I would want no part of 'him'...
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» 1 corinthians 11 24-26
Posted by: Tombo
» Can We Look At Some Other Verses?
Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» RE: xmas
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» an atheist criticising some atheists
Posted by: Emily419
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Dec 4, 2007 6:35 AM
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» Cleaning out closets, drawers and the file cabinet...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: relevepasse on Dec 4, 2007 6:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: optimist on Dec 4, 2007 6:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/oxfam_alert
or
http://tinyurl.com/38ppcc
Thanks so much -
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» Thanks for pointing this out...cows need care. They are not machines.
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Thanks for pointing this out...cows need care. They are not machines.
Posted by: lepidopteryx
» RE: Be careful with the Cow thing...
Posted by: TheLimit
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Dec 4, 2007 8:10 AM
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mas time do it all the time. They are compulsive buyers throughout the year. And so they start to turn up the volume before the rest of us. But I do love Christmas. Most people get a little nicer. Thanks, ANNA
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» True, I just wish Christmas would be kept in December instead of Nov and even Oct.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: SOME PEOPLE BUY ALL YEAR ROUND
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: stina723 on Dec 4, 2007 8:14 AM
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Posted by: fishita on Dec 4, 2007 8:18 AM
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» Maybe we need instructions in how, but any excuse to celebrate is a good excuse
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: StuartH on Dec 4, 2007 8:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A retail industry person above pointed out that if everybody quit buying stuff, the retail industry would suffer and by extension, the rest of the economy.
This is true, but that is also the crux of a dilemma. The consumer economy as we know it was really ramped up after WWII as a means of keeping the level of economic activity from the war years going, but transitioning to a manufacturing and retail mode. Advertising really kicked into high gear because there was a need to turn thrifty, penny pinching Americans into big spenders.
Now, as we look at the big picture, we see that all this focus on consumer economics has created a dependency that in the long run is unsustainable. America, a very small percentage of the world population consumes an very outsize portion of all the resources in the world. We are entering an era, for instance, in which gasoline prices will continue to rise because the overall resource supply versus demand will be less and less in the consumer's favor.
I recently went through a long and exhausting process of working through a house full of Christmas gifts from as far back as the 1930s and trying to figure out how to sell of give it away. That is the ultimate end of the rush to buy stuff for Christmas.
You have to ask, if you have any interest in where all this is going, what happens if an economy based on making, transporting, selling, storing, and reselling stuff can no longer be relied on? Then what?
I think that, to point out that our economic bag of tricks only has one trick - to sell stuff - is correct and that people buying less stuff will impair the retail goose laying our golden eggs. However, I think it is short sighted to stop there. We need to develop more tricks in our economic bag of tricks and to find other ways of generating jobs and wealth aside from choking the world with more and more stuff, and depleting resources to do it. Really, we have to if we are going to survive in the long term.
In the short term, I doubt anyone in retail will suffer. Thoughtful people will think long term and move into new opportunities as the years advance.
Make hay while the sun shines!
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» "Retail" covers a lot of ground, of course
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: "Retail" covers a lot of ground, of course
Posted by: lindalee
» RE: etail IS the Problem
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: nfamous on Dec 4, 2007 9:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are headed into a depression of historic proportions that will make the Great Depression look like a bad day at the beach. It wasn't caused by people not purchasing. It was caused by the illegal private company The Federal Reserve printing money out of thin air and causing inflation with nothing to back our currency since the gold standard ended.
People keep asking if it's possible to break this cycle. Yes it's possible but it is not likely. Americans are besieged with consumerism and corporations will not do the moral thing. They are cold-blooded profit-making machines. That is abhorrent to the natural state of man except for the few authoritarian jerks that run the world after inheriting fortunes from their ancestors. People in this country don't read anymore and when they do it's usually lies and propaganda. They never consider the biases of their sources. All news is controlled by five media companies and soon to be even less.
We turned our back on democracy and now it has turned its back on us. Frankly we collectively deserve it but I'd rather worry about undoing the damage if I thought it was possible. Religion and racism will prevent the level of healing necessary to reverse this trend although we may delay it inevitably. In other words stop trying to be a good person only during the holidays or on Sundays if you attend services. We need year round morality from believers and nonbelievers alike if we are to defeat the corporate global beast that has enslaved us and our families.
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» RE: Christmas is really the Winter Solstice
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: Christmas is really the Winter Solstice--SOAP is the answer!
Posted by: terihu
» RE: Christmas is really the Winter Solstice--SOAP is the answer!
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Christmas is really the Winter Solstice
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Dec 4, 2007 11:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But if we could just get them to stay out of the Malls-
Buy PROTEST Christmas Presents.
Send donations to progressive groups in people's names.
Buy DVD's of Michael Moore's move SICKO
(buy ALL of his movies)
Buy progressive books-radical tee shits and bumper stickers-
And be sure watch the old move- IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE. It shows EXACTLY what is wrong with our country and what we need to do about it.
Buy presents from LOCAL artists.
Buy presents of vegetarian food and a membership in a local food co-op.
Vote with your Christmas Presents.
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» RE: Buy wise presents-
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Buy wise presents-
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: drricklippin on Dec 4, 2007 12:03 PM
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Poet William Wordsworth
Read poetry -That is where "the REAL news" is
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
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Posted by: thelostsailor on Dec 4, 2007 12:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Granted the religions aren't completely to blame- the 'Hallmark' nature of so many religious holidays has been championed by countless corporations and smaller companies alike that seek to capitalize on the soft spot in people's holy hearts.
Yet the governing bodies of all these denominations don't shun this materialism, but cherish the publicity.
Abandon you contrived organized religion and go find your spiritual self in the natural world. Organized religion only isolates you from what is real. The self-righteous and power hungry ultimately lead organized religion and this leads to bloodshed, environmental destruction, and worse. No person is holier than you!
Hope all have a great Solstice!!!
:)
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Posted by: babs on Dec 4, 2007 1:21 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So far it's working out great. At least twice a week I pay for someone's coffee in the car behind me at the Tim Horton's - last car contained 2 Afghanistan veterans and they so deserve my thanks. I give what I can on other days to the Salvation Army. I donated money to the Toronto Star Santa fund (a 101 year old charity) which delivers food, warm clothing and small gifts and toys for low income families. In another vein, I adopted a 2 year old cat from the local shelter - she doesn't know it's Xmas but she's got a whole house and friendly peeps now rather than a small cage.
I have a friend in the restaurant business (in Ottawa) who serves a free full dinner on Xmas day, all day - his place seats hundreds so it's no small feat. Regardless of status or ability to pay, all are welcome. Some diners are alone on Xmas and a bit of company and good food goes a long way to stave off the loneliness of the much touted "family" holiday that seems to leave out those who are the most vulnerable. I give my friend a cheque to help with that each year - it's the least I can do.
Maybe others can come up with ideas for small acts of kindness and generosity. I don't buy gifts for anyone but my son, and he just announced that he wants me to take the money I would spend on him and buy myself something I need. Of course, I won't do that but I sure am proud of my boy for that.
And making anonymous gifts make me smile - I put myself in the recipient's place and it just makes my day. It's excellent therapy and way to create a few positives in a world that is getting scarier by the day.
happy holidays to all.
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» RE: I'm trying something different this year...
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: Jeanne on Dec 4, 2007 4:47 PM
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Posted by: thelostsailor on Dec 4, 2007 5:04 PM
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(not to religious groups!)
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Posted by: boygranddakar on Dec 4, 2007 8:49 PM
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The difficulty came when I got married, and trying to explain this to my in-laws has been tricky. One of my mothers-in-law, for example, only received money for her birthday and holidays from her parents, never gifts, and in her adult life she treasures gifts for that reason. (She does enjoy gift certificates for massages, dinner, etc., but she also needs at least a few *things* to open.) But she and my other mother-in-law have so much STUFF, my spouse and I despair over what to get them.
It's one thing to modify my own choices of what I do for Christmas, but none of us live in a vacuum. Does anyone have ideas about how to discuss these issues with family? Or, of how to negotiate the differences when I want and non-materialistic Christmas, but I'm swimming against the family tide?
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» RE: Ideas on getting others onboard?
Posted by: tnrider
» RE: Ideas on getting others onboard?
Posted by: boygranddakar
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Posted by: Emily419 on Dec 4, 2007 9:37 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"All is irrelevant however, as no one has ever demonstrated any evidence of a diety, no man in the sky, etc, etc...
You "god" is claimed to be All powerfull, the creator of everything, all seeing, all aware, etc, etc...yet TOTALLY irresponsible for any and all misery."
What's irrelevant is whether or not there is any proof of a diety or not. The beliefs still can serve many positive functions in our culture such as community, solidarity, meaning, love, happiness, etc. You seem to priviledge the scientific method as if it is the best way to understand the world and has all the answers.
Furthermore, as a non-believer, you are criticising a religion without trying to understand it from a believers perspective which makes your argument faulty. You have to understand what you disagree with to know why you don't agree. From a Christian's perspective, "all powerful creator" gave humans free will. What this does is make the compassion and love in the world that much more beautiful since it was not forced. We are not predetermined. God has a plan and it's our choice to follow it or not. Atleast this is how it was explained to me and it makes since. How irrelevant life would be if we were all pre-programmed robots.
It's your choice to have no part it in. Even though I am not a Christian, it is impossible to grow up in this country and say you haven't been affected by their values and beliefs. I enjoy celebrating holidays and making them my own by finding my own significances, meanings, and making my own traditions rather than allow my personal criticisms to completely take the fun out of everything.
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» religions themselves may be ok, until they go too big
Posted by: thelostsailor
» RE: religions themselves may be ok, until they go too big
Posted by: Emily419
» Emily419, How Unclear Can You Get? Part 1
Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Emily419, How Unclear Can You Get? Part 2
Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» RE: I posted this before in a reply, and I'll post it again here! The problem with fellow atheists...
Posted by: fork
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Posted by: Jangeen@netzero.net on Dec 5, 2007 7:19 AM
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bible Mark7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandments of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandments of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Also: Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the custom of people are in vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but the speak not: they must need be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Constantine did the job in the year 325 first at the Council of Nicaea, and later Saul (Paul) the actual founder of Christianity. Is it that True!
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» RE: X MASS NOT THE TEACHINGS OF THE MESSIAH
Posted by: VeryBlessed
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Posted by: pwhite97624 on Dec 8, 2007 2:06 PM
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ESPECIALLY SING "SAMMY THE SNAKE" - It'll relieve all that "pressure". DO IT NOW !!
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Posted by: revrmaury on Dec 9, 2007 5:07 PM
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Posted by: TheLimit on Dec 10, 2007 3:51 PM
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This not only means that I don't need retail telling me how to celebrate (not to mention what to celebrate), but I don't need the media's input either.
For years my family has exchanged wish lists; not only to we get what we want, but as often as not it's something we have a need for and would have bought anyway. We do give handmade gifts, where appropriate. None of us is independently wealthy, and we don't expect anyone to beggar themselves for sake of a major consumer show.
We eat what we like and how much, we don't feel the need to founder ourselves at Thanksgiving, or Christmas, or any other time of year.
So that's my wish: that my holidays NOT be defined, nor my way of celebrating denigrated, by others.
If something about my celebration seems self indulgent to you, pleae keep your judgements to yourself, and I promise to do the same.
Merry Christmas.
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Posted by: Lilykins on Dec 10, 2007 4:36 PM
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This has been shoved down our throats for a very long time. It's served the people at the top who profit from wild consumerism and the banks/credit that profit from people's debts.
Think about how most ads make us feel insecure, or inadequate if we don't buy their products!
Being manipulated has long been the way of life for the average American.
Whether you think Christmas is a Christian holiday or not...we can all agree that it's much more more meaningful if we take the time to celebrate love...love of family and friends, love of humanity (giving things/money/time to those in need), and love of mother earth.
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» RE: it's about time
Posted by: TheLimit
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Posted by: Rick336 on Dec 29, 2007 12:33 AM
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I know a lot of people who hate Christmas. I feel very fortunate that I love it like I do. It's a beautiful time of year. And my love for Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus. I'm an atheist.
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Dec 4, 2007 12:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1- Forgive someone you have a longstanding grudge or problem with.
2- Become a friend to someone who has few friends.
3- Visit a shut-in or shut-out. Someone alone, in the hospital, in prison, a street person, on the margins.
4- Meet an unmet need of someone privately or anonymously.
5- Feed someone who is hungry.
6- Clothe someone who is needy.
7- Extend grace to someone who has wronged you.
8- Be a peacemaker between people in strife.
9- Love someone who is hard to love.
10- Try to not be judgmental.
Grace, Mercy and Peace. Seek these 3 earnestly and the rest will follow. The best part is that it cannot be bought at any price.
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» Yes
Posted by: Tom Degan
» and all that is so much harder...
Posted by: deborama
» RE: Christ IS NOT In The Holiday Christmas
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Christ IS NOT In The Holiday Christmas
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Christ IS NOT In The Holiday Christmas
Posted by: jbur816
» RE: Christ IS NOT In The Holiday Christmas
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Christ IS NOT In The Holiday Christmas
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Doesn't the Bible mention gold, frankincense & myrrh?
Posted by: war_on_tara
» Sure, if you're Jesus!
Posted by: PaulK
» RE: Doesn't the Bible mention gold, frankincense & myrrh?
Posted by: lepidopteryx
» RE: Christ IS NOT In The Holiday Christmas
Posted by: otto
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Dec 4, 2007 2:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It's the Hypocrisy
Posted by: Tom Degan
» Not applicable to the churchgoing folk I know. They all want wars to stop ...
Posted by: SayBlade
» RE: Not applicable to the churchgoing folk I know. They all want wars to stop ...
Posted by: Knot_Rich
» RE: Not applicable to the churchgoing folk I know. They all want wars to stop ...
Posted by: Basenjis
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tom Degan on Dec 4, 2007 2:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you insist on buyuing your children a DVD, please pick up the original animated Grinch program (beautifully narrated by Boris Karloff) or - BETTER STILL - A Charlie Brown Christmas. While everyone around him is going through the meaningless motions expected of everyone this time of year, Charlie is desperately thying to find the true meaning of Christmas. A wonderful program.
I won't be going anywhere near a mall this Holiday season. I won't be buying any gifts for anyone. I won't be doing Christmas; I'll be observing it. The only celebrating we should be doing is the celebration of the birth of the Prince of Peace. That's good for starters, ay?
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
In The Grip of Ronniemania
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» RE: Hark, The Herald....
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Hark, The Herald....
Posted by: madaha
» RE: Hark, The Herald....CORRECTION
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Hark, The Herald....
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Hark, The Herald....
Posted by: athurlow
» RE: Hark, The Herald....
Posted by: gregs765
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Posted by: war_on_tara on Dec 4, 2007 3:42 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems exactly as if you want to shut down the retail sector entirely in the season where it makes 40% of sales, drive millions of people out of work, and cause another Great Depression.
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» yes we need much less retail
Posted by: deborama
» Notice all the ads on this site?
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Notice all the ads on this site?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» thanks, Anna!
Posted by: war_on_tara
» So how does this benefit society?
Posted by: sliver
» RE: So how does this benefit society?
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: So how does this benefit society?
Posted by: RickHarlan
» You Could Say
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: So how does this benefit society? tara
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: yes we need much less retail
Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: Let's shut down the retail sector & cause another depression
Posted by: Marleygem
» RE:What about this
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Let's shut down the retail sector & cause another depression
Posted by: Knot_Rich
» RE: Let's shut down the retail sector & cause another depression
Posted by: AcidQueen
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Posted by: overseas on Dec 4, 2007 4:53 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Xmas in the third world
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: war_on_tara on Dec 4, 2007 5:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't consider myself a complete Grinch, but I must be in the middle someplace. I'm no longer a Christian and, at any rate, don't look to someone like Bill McKibben for religious advice.
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» RE: Ugh. Sentimental nonsense.
Posted by: jumperladd
» Christmas IS nice, & I like your attitude!
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Christmas IS nice, & I like your attitude!
Posted by: jbur816
» RE: Christmas IS nice, & I like your attitude!
Posted by: war_on_tara
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Posted by: cristina_c79 on Dec 4, 2007 5:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» the Puritans banned Christmas, & Adventists still do
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Why mainly Christians?
Posted by: sophiej
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 4, 2007 6:04 AM
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» RE: The overcommercialization of "Christmas" is no different from our yearly "elections".
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: The overcommercialization of "Christmas" is no different from our yearly "elections".
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: The overcommercialization of "Christmas" is no different from our yearly "elections".
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: JOHN L. on Dec 4, 2007 6:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is purely a man-made non-event, as is all "BELIEF" in ficticious entities and events.
For those who need to take it further (why?)...in the book/'bible', jesus said "Celibrate my death (easter), not my birth (christmas)."
More: His 'birth' was not in december, according to all research.
All is irrelevant however, as no one has ever demonstrated any evidence of a diety, no man in the sky, etc, etc...
You "god" is claimed to be All powerfull, the creator of everything, all seeing, all aware, etc, etc...yet TOTALLY irresponsible for any and all misery.
IF there was such, I would want no part of 'him'...
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» 1 corinthians 11 24-26
Posted by: Tombo
» Can We Look At Some Other Verses?
Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» RE: xmas
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» an atheist criticising some atheists
Posted by: Emily419
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Dec 4, 2007 6:35 AM
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» Cleaning out closets, drawers and the file cabinet...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: relevepasse on Dec 4, 2007 6:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: optimist on Dec 4, 2007 6:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/oxfam_alert
or
http://tinyurl.com/38ppcc
Thanks so much -
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» Thanks for pointing this out...cows need care. They are not machines.
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Thanks for pointing this out...cows need care. They are not machines.
Posted by: lepidopteryx
» RE: Be careful with the Cow thing...
Posted by: TheLimit
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Dec 4, 2007 8:10 AM
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mas time do it all the time. They are compulsive buyers throughout the year. And so they start to turn up the volume before the rest of us. But I do love Christmas. Most people get a little nicer. Thanks, ANNA
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» True, I just wish Christmas would be kept in December instead of Nov and even Oct.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: SOME PEOPLE BUY ALL YEAR ROUND
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: stina723 on Dec 4, 2007 8:14 AM
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Posted by: fishita on Dec 4, 2007 8:18 AM
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» Maybe we need instructions in how, but any excuse to celebrate is a good excuse
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: StuartH on Dec 4, 2007 8:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A retail industry person above pointed out that if everybody quit buying stuff, the retail industry would suffer and by extension, the rest of the economy.
This is true, but that is also the crux of a dilemma. The consumer economy as we know it was really ramped up after WWII as a means of keeping the level of economic activity from the war years going, but transitioning to a manufacturing and retail mode. Advertising really kicked into high gear because there was a need to turn thrifty, penny pinching Americans into big spenders.
Now, as we look at the big picture, we see that all this focus on consumer economics has created a dependency that in the long run is unsustainable. America, a very small percentage of the world population consumes an very outsize portion of all the resources in the world. We are entering an era, for instance, in which gasoline prices will continue to rise because the overall resource supply versus demand will be less and less in the consumer's favor.
I recently went through a long and exhausting process of working through a house full of Christmas gifts from as far back as the 1930s and trying to figure out how to sell of give it away. That is the ultimate end of the rush to buy stuff for Christmas.
You have to ask, if you have any interest in where all this is going, what happens if an economy based on making, transporting, selling, storing, and reselling stuff can no longer be relied on? Then what?
I think that, to point out that our economic bag of tricks only has one trick - to sell stuff - is correct and that people buying less stuff will impair the retail goose laying our golden eggs. However, I think it is short sighted to stop there. We need to develop more tricks in our economic bag of tricks and to find other ways of generating jobs and wealth aside from choking the world with more and more stuff, and depleting resources to do it. Really, we have to if we are going to survive in the long term.
In the short term, I doubt anyone in retail will suffer. Thoughtful people will think long term and move into new opportunities as the years advance.
Make hay while the sun shines!
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» "Retail" covers a lot of ground, of course
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: "Retail" covers a lot of ground, of course
Posted by: lindalee
» RE: etail IS the Problem
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: nfamous on Dec 4, 2007 9:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are headed into a depression of historic proportions that will make the Great Depression look like a bad day at the beach. It wasn't caused by people not purchasing. It was caused by the illegal private company The Federal Reserve printing money out of thin air and causing inflation with nothing to back our currency since the gold standard ended.
People keep asking if it's possible to break this cycle. Yes it's possible but it is not likely. Americans are besieged with consumerism and corporations will not do the moral thing. They are cold-blooded profit-making machines. That is abhorrent to the natural state of man except for the few authoritarian jerks that run the world after inheriting fortunes from their ancestors. People in this country don't read anymore and when they do it's usually lies and propaganda. They never consider the biases of their sources. All news is controlled by five media companies and soon to be even less.
We turned our back on democracy and now it has turned its back on us. Frankly we collectively deserve it but I'd rather worry about undoing the damage if I thought it was possible. Religion and racism will prevent the level of healing necessary to reverse this trend although we may delay it inevitably. In other words stop trying to be a good person only during the holidays or on Sundays if you attend services. We need year round morality from believers and nonbelievers alike if we are to defeat the corporate global beast that has enslaved us and our families.
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» RE: Christmas is really the Winter Solstice
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: Christmas is really the Winter Solstice--SOAP is the answer!
Posted by: terihu
» RE: Christmas is really the Winter Solstice--SOAP is the answer!
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Christmas is really the Winter Solstice
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Dec 4, 2007 11:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But if we could just get them to stay out of the Malls-
Buy PROTEST Christmas Presents.
Send donations to progressive groups in people's names.
Buy DVD's of Michael Moore's move SICKO
(buy ALL of his movies)
Buy progressive books-radical tee shits and bumper stickers-
And be sure watch the old move- IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE. It shows EXACTLY what is wrong with our country and what we need to do about it.
Buy presents from LOCAL artists.
Buy presents of vegetarian food and a membership in a local food co-op.
Vote with your Christmas Presents.
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» RE: Buy wise presents-
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Buy wise presents-
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: drricklippin on Dec 4, 2007 12:03 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Poet William Wordsworth
Read poetry -That is where "the REAL news" is
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
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Posted by: thelostsailor on Dec 4, 2007 12:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Granted the religions aren't completely to blame- the 'Hallmark' nature of so many religious holidays has been championed by countless corporations and smaller companies alike that seek to capitalize on the soft spot in people's holy hearts.
Yet the governing bodies of all these denominations don't shun this materialism, but cherish the publicity.
Abandon you contrived organized religion and go find your spiritual self in the natural world. Organized religion only isolates you from what is real. The self-righteous and power hungry ultimately lead organized religion and this leads to bloodshed, environmental destruction, and worse. No person is holier than you!
Hope all have a great Solstice!!!
:)
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Posted by: babs on Dec 4, 2007 1:21 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So far it's working out great. At least twice a week I pay for someone's coffee in the car behind me at the Tim Horton's - last car contained 2 Afghanistan veterans and they so deserve my thanks. I give what I can on other days to the Salvation Army. I donated money to the Toronto Star Santa fund (a 101 year old charity) which delivers food, warm clothing and small gifts and toys for low income families. In another vein, I adopted a 2 year old cat from the local shelter - she doesn't know it's Xmas but she's got a whole house and friendly peeps now rather than a small cage.
I have a friend in the restaurant business (in Ottawa) who serves a free full dinner on Xmas day, all day - his place seats hundreds so it's no small feat. Regardless of status or ability to pay, all are welcome. Some diners are alone on Xmas and a bit of company and good food goes a long way to stave off the loneliness of the much touted "family" holiday that seems to leave out those who are the most vulnerable. I give my friend a cheque to help with that each year - it's the least I can do.
Maybe others can come up with ideas for small acts of kindness and generosity. I don't buy gifts for anyone but my son, and he just announced that he wants me to take the money I would spend on him and buy myself something I need. Of course, I won't do that but I sure am proud of my boy for that.
And making anonymous gifts make me smile - I put myself in the recipient's place and it just makes my day. It's excellent therapy and way to create a few positives in a world that is getting scarier by the day.
happy holidays to all.
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» RE: I'm trying something different this year...
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: Jeanne on Dec 4, 2007 4:47 PM
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Posted by: thelostsailor on Dec 4, 2007 5:04 PM
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(not to religious groups!)
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Posted by: boygranddakar on Dec 4, 2007 8:49 PM
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The difficulty came when I got married, and trying to explain this to my in-laws has been tricky. One of my mothers-in-law, for example, only received money for her birthday and holidays from her parents, never gifts, and in her adult life she treasures gifts for that reason. (She does enjoy gift certificates for massages, dinner, etc., but she also needs at least a few *things* to open.) But she and my other mother-in-law have so much STUFF, my spouse and I despair over what to get them.
It's one thing to modify my own choices of what I do for Christmas, but none of us live in a vacuum. Does anyone have ideas about how to discuss these issues with family? Or, of how to negotiate the differences when I want and non-materialistic Christmas, but I'm swimming against the family tide?
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» RE: Ideas on getting others onboard?
Posted by: tnrider
» RE: Ideas on getting others onboard?
Posted by: boygranddakar
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Posted by: Emily419 on Dec 4, 2007 9:37 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"All is irrelevant however, as no one has ever demonstrated any evidence of a diety, no man in the sky, etc, etc...
You "god" is claimed to be All powerfull, the creator of everything, all seeing, all aware, etc, etc...yet TOTALLY irresponsible for any and all misery."
What's irrelevant is whether or not there is any proof of a diety or not. The beliefs still can serve many positive functions in our culture such as community, solidarity, meaning, love, happiness, etc. You seem to priviledge the scientific method as if it is the best way to understand the world and has all the answers.
Furthermore, as a non-believer, you are criticising a religion without trying to understand it from a believers perspective which makes your argument faulty. You have to understand what you disagree with to know why you don't agree. From a Christian's perspective, "all powerful creator" gave humans free will. What this does is make the compassion and love in the world that much more beautiful since it was not forced. We are not predetermined. God has a plan and it's our choice to follow it or not. Atleast this is how it was explained to me and it makes since. How irrelevant life would be if we were all pre-programmed robots.
It's your choice to have no part it in. Even though I am not a Christian, it is impossible to grow up in this country and say you haven't been affected by their values and beliefs. I enjoy celebrating holidays and making them my own by finding my own significances, meanings, and making my own traditions rather than allow my personal criticisms to completely take the fun out of everything.
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» religions themselves may be ok, until they go too big
Posted by: thelostsailor
» RE: religions themselves may be ok, until they go too big
Posted by: Emily419
» Emily419, How Unclear Can You Get? Part 1
Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Emily419, How Unclear Can You Get? Part 2
Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» RE: I posted this before in a reply, and I'll post it again here! The problem with fellow atheists...
Posted by: fork
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Posted by: Jangeen@netzero.net on Dec 5, 2007 7:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
bible Mark7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandments of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandments of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Also: Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the custom of people are in vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but the speak not: they must need be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Constantine did the job in the year 325 first at the Council of Nicaea, and later Saul (Paul) the actual founder of Christianity. Is it that True!
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» RE: X MASS NOT THE TEACHINGS OF THE MESSIAH
Posted by: VeryBlessed
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Posted by: pwhite97624 on Dec 8, 2007 2:06 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ESPECIALLY SING "SAMMY THE SNAKE" - It'll relieve all that "pressure". DO IT NOW !!
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Posted by: revrmaury on Dec 9, 2007 5:07 PM
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Posted by: TheLimit on Dec 10, 2007 3:51 PM
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This not only means that I don't need retail telling me how to celebrate (not to mention what to celebrate), but I don't need the media's input either.
For years my family has exchanged wish lists; not only to we get what we want, but as often as not it's something we have a need for and would have bought anyway. We do give handmade gifts, where appropriate. None of us is independently wealthy, and we don't expect anyone to beggar themselves for sake of a major consumer show.
We eat what we like and how much, we don't feel the need to founder ourselves at Thanksgiving, or Christmas, or any other time of year.
So that's my wish: that my holidays NOT be defined, nor my way of celebrating denigrated, by others.
If something about my celebration seems self indulgent to you, pleae keep your judgements to yourself, and I promise to do the same.
Merry Christmas.
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Posted by: Lilykins on Dec 10, 2007 4:36 PM
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This has been shoved down our throats for a very long time. It's served the people at the top who profit from wild consumerism and the banks/credit that profit from people's debts.
Think about how most ads make us feel insecure, or inadequate if we don't buy their products!
Being manipulated has long been the way of life for the average American.
Whether you think Christmas is a Christian holiday or not...we can all agree that it's much more more meaningful if we take the time to celebrate love...love of family and friends, love of humanity (giving things/money/time to those in need), and love of mother earth.
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» RE: it's about time
Posted by: TheLimit
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Posted by: Rick336 on Dec 29, 2007 12:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know a lot of people who hate Christmas. I feel very fortunate that I love it like I do. It's a beautiful time of year. And my love for Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus. I'm an atheist.
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